The Implacable Gnoll Challenge [3.PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, the premise of this challenge is very simple. I'm a large lover of a Gnolls both visually and fluff wise; something about a massive, bipedal Hyena just screams to me when I see them drawn and portrayed and I love when they can be smug, compulsively laughing bastards (big points if it's a more subtle, chilling laugh than the common barking. But hey, Joker laughs are great too). I'm also a big fan of Implacable Warriors who can stride through a hurricane of hurt and pain like it was nothing to crush a guy's skull in.

The premise is to combine these two together into a character build. You must build a Gnoll who is very difficult to kill without cheese and/or a lot of luck.


Stipulations
The base creature for the build is a standard Pathfinder Gnoll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/gnoll) using Pathfinder monster rules and 3.5 level buy off rules (treating the monster's CR as LA). Templates are allowed.
The build is for a level 5 character.
Any d20 material may be used for the build but prioritize as such (highest priority to lowest): Pathfinder material, Homebrew from GiTP, 3rd Party d20 material, 3.5 Material, 3.0 Material.
Base Ability scores are: 18, 16, 15, 13, 13, 13
Standard WBL, but the durability of the build must not be negatively affected by the loss of gear to any significant degree.
The build must concentrate on durability, but not at the expense of being useless in combat.
The build may take advantage of magic, but cannot rely on a secondary character for buffing and the loss of buffs must not negatively affect the build to any significant degree.
The build may take advantage of secondary game systems (like Tome of Battle, Psionics, etc.) but the durability of the build must not only come from using material from said system.
No Cheese or anything that would get a DMG chucked at Mach 4 towards the player's head.
These stipulations may be changed at the Challenge Creator's discretion.

[sol_kanar]

The Invulnerable Rager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/invulnerable-rager) alternate Barbarian features might help.

Another idea could be going for Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior), trying to exploit Vigor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/v/vigor) as much as possible (15 temporary hit points with a standard action): maybe it's possible to increase the manifester level for more hit points. Choosing the Weapon Master or Feral Warrior path could be both flavorful and effective.

Also, a question: are the ability scores you listed already modified by the Gnoll race modifiers?

[Tanuki Tales]

Also, a question: are the ability scores you listed already modified by the Gnoll race modifiers?


Base Ability scores are: 18, 16, 15, 13, 13, 13

Bolded important bit.

Those are your scores to work with before factoring in racial modifiers, level increases, items or anything else.

[doko239]

Are RHD being retained?

Edit: I ask because, using 3.5 LA buy-off, the character wouldn't qualify until it had reached ECL 6 (2 RHD + 1 LA + 3 Class levels), which is more XP than you've allowed. With RHD, we can only have 2 class levels; without, we can have 4.

Edit again: While I wait, here's a straight level 5 build that might be worth working towards:

Edit yet again: modified for the rules listed.

Edit the fourth: Fixed death threshold.


Gnoll Fighter (Unbreakable) 1/Alchemist (Vivisectionist Ragechymist) 3

Str 20 (26*) (* = under effects of Mutagen)
Dex 15
Con 20
Int 12 (10*)
Wis 13
Cha 11

HP 65 (1d10 + 5d8 + 30)

Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +4

AC 18 (20*), Touch 12, Flat-Footed 16 (18*)

BAB + 4, CMB +9 (+12*), CMD 21 (24*)

Attacks: Falchion +10 (+13*) 2d4 + 8 (2d4 + 13*) 18-20 x2 OR
Power Attack Falchion +8 (+11*) 2d4 + 14 (2d4 + 19*) 18-20 x2

Feats: Endurance, Diehard, Extra Discovery, Power Attack

Discoveries: Preserve Organs x2

Traits: Magic is Life, Magical Talent (Arcane Mark)

Special Abilities: Sneak Attack +2d6, Mutagen, Extracts, Tough as Nails

Formulae Known: 1st Level: Deathwatch, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Shield, Stone Fist, Enlarge Person

Equipment: +1 Falchion, Mithral Breastplate, Cloak of Resistance +2

Skills: To Taste



Advantages:

- Use your 1/day casting of Arcane Mark on yourself; the next time you would be put under 0 hp, you auto-stabilize via Magic is Life. Also gives +2 to saves vs death effects.

- 2x Preserve Organs gives you Fortification.

- At next level, take 4th level of Alchemist. For feat, take Extra Discovery, and for discoveries, take another Preserve Organs and Lingering Spirit, giving you Greater Fortification and a death threshold of -30. For 2nd level formulae, take Invisibility, Vomit Swarm. Afterward, go full Invulnerable Rager Barbarian.

[Tanuki Tales]

Are RHD being retained?

Edit: I ask because, using 3.5 LA buy-off, the character wouldn't qualify until it had reached ECL 6 (2 RHD + 1 LA + 3 Class levels), which is more XP than you've allowed. With RHD, we can only have 2 class levels; without, we can have 4.


The base creature for the build is a standard Pathfinder Gnoll using Pathfinder monster rules and 3.5 level buy off rules (treating the monster's CR as LA). Templates are allowed.

Bolded important bits.

It's a CR 1 creature, so the XP cost to lower it's "virtual LA" in this challenge is the same as an LA +1. The RHD are retained but do not influence the level of the character. So the end result (assuming 4 levels and no templates) is 6 Hit Dice.

[doko239]

Bolded important bits.

It's a CR 1 creature, so the XP cost to lower it's "virtual LA" in this challenge is the same as an LA +1. The RHD are retained but do not influence the level of the character. So the end result (assuming 4 levels and no templates) is 6 Hit Dice.

Gotcha. Edited my original post with a build you might like.

[Tanuki Tales]

Gotcha. Edited my original post with a build you might like.

That's a very good entry to the challenge!

But a few questions/things to poke at:

1. How did you place the ability scores and spend the point? It's obvious you put either the 18 in Strength or Constitution, the 15 in Dexterity and two of the 13s in both Wisdom and Charisma.
2. I'm assuming Vivisectionist was added for combat utility and because it doesn't clash with the Ragechymist archetype, yes?
3. You have Extra Discovery for a feat, but you only have 2 Discoveries listed.
4. How did you double the Gnoll's Death threshold?
5.Since there is a large list of material open, how would you edit your build knowing you can select Flaws and Traits from 3.5?


I have to say though that the Magic is Life/Magical Talent combo is a nice trick I was unaware of. Thanks for pointing it out!

[doko239]

That's a very good entry to the challenge!

But a few questions/things to poke at:

1. How did you place the ability scores and spend the point? It's obvious you put either the 18 in Strength or Constitution, the 15 in Dexterity and two of the 13s in both Wisdom and Charisma.
2. I'm assuming Vivisectionist was added for combat utility and because it doesn't clash with the Ragechymist archetype, yes?
3. You have Extra Discovery for a feat, but you only have 2 Discoveries listed.
4. How did you double the Gnoll's Death threshold?
5.Since there is a large list of material open, how would you edit your build knowing you can select Flaws and Traits from 3.5?


I have to say though that the Magic is Life/Magical Talent combo is a nice trick I was unaware of. Thanks for pointing it out!

1. 16 Str, 18 Con, 15 Dex, 13 Int/Wis/Cha
2. Correct
3. At 3rd level an Alchemist only has one discovery.
4. I actually made a mistake here. I'm not sure why, but I thought Diehard doubled your death threshold; dumb mistake. Incidentally, this makes Endurance/Diehard superfluous, which would let you drop the level of Fighter and take 4 straight levels of Alchemist, followed by Barbarian. However, you'd lose weapon and armor proficiencies until then.
5. I'm not all that familiar with 3.5 material, so I don't really know.

[doko239]

Ok, having researched 3.5e Flaws, here is my revised build:

Gnoll Alchemist (Vivisectionist Ragechymist) 4

Str 20 (26*) (* = under effects of Mutagen)
Dex 15
Con 20
Int 12 (10*)
Wis 13
Cha 11

HP 63 (6d8 + 30)

Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +8

AC 17 (19*), Touch 11, Flat-Footed 15 (17*)

BAB + 4, CMB +9 (+12*), CMD 21 (24*)

Attacks: Spear +10 (+13*) 1d8 + 7 (2d4 + 12*) x3 OR
Power Attack Spear +8 (+11*) 1d8 + 13 (2d4 + 18*) x3

Feats: Extra Discovery x2, Power Attack, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will

Flaws: Meager Fortitude, Vulnerable

Discoveries: Preserve Organs x3, Lingering Spirit

Traits: Magic is Life, Magical Talent (Arcane Mark)

Special Abilities: Sneak Attack +2d6, Mutagen, Extracts

Formulae Known: 1st Level: Deathwatch, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Shield, Stone Fist, Enlarge Person; 2nd Level: Invisibility, Vomit Swarm

Equipment: Masterwork Spear, +2 Mail Shirt, Cloak of Resistance +2

Skills: To Taste


Took Meager Fortitude because the fort save is already through the roof. Took Vulnerable because -1 AC is a very minimal impact. Both of these got me Iron Will and Improved Iron Will, giving +2 will save and able to reroll one will save/day.

From here, I recommend going straight Barbarian, probably invulnerable rager for the huge DR. Get a Mithral Breastplate and a Falchion and go critfishing. :smallbiggrin:

So, for survivability we have:

+2 saves vs death effects
Reroll any one will save 1/day
Do not die until at -30 HP or -5 Con
75% chance to negate any critical hit or sneak attack
Able to cast Invisibility, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds

[Tanuki Tales]

Well Doko, you've made one pretty tough hombre. :smallbiggrin:

I wonder if anyone can honestly top that build.

[stack]

Until they poke you into unconsciousness from INT loss. Ragechemist has nasty drawbacks while adding nothing to survivability otherwise. Beastmorph adds to combat ability and stacks with vivisectionist, you can even get pounce to go along with your natural attacks from feral mutagen, combining nicely with the sneak attack.

You could always take invulnerable rager, get 230 CON, and just start taking roll with it (3.5 feat) to up your DR.

[Tanuki Tales]

You could always take invulnerable rager, get 230 CON, and just start taking roll with it (3.5 feat) to up your DR.

How're you getting 230 Con?

[stack]

By the mighty typo method.

Its should be 20 CON, the pre-req for roll with it.

[Tanuki Tales]

By the mighty typo method.

Its should be 20 CON, the pre-req for roll with it.

Well, I still think his build has more survivability than a straight Barbarian Invulnerable Rager (unless you grab Admiral Squish's Boar Totem).

I'd just personally drop the two Iron Will feats for that one from Player's Handbook II that switches Wis to Con for Will saves and then grab something else, maybe another Discovery.

[doko239]

Well, I still think his build has more survivability than a straight Barbarian Invulnerable Rager (unless you grab Admiral Squish's Boar Totem).

I'd just personally drop the two Iron Will feats for that one from Player's Handbook II that switches Wis to Con for Will saves and then grab something else, maybe another Discovery.

Replace Imp Iron Will with Steadfast Determination, but keep Iron Will. That'll give you a base Will save of 14, so you'll never fail a Ragechymist check unless it's a crit; which with Greater Fort is unlikely.

[stack]

Why spend all the feats to bolster your will save when you could just not take ragechemist? The CON boost isn't until level 10. Until then, all it does is boost strength by 2 and natural armor by 4 (not until level 6). Until then, you are either burning feats to prevent stupiding yourself into a coma or you become a liability to your party. Its just not a good archetype and adds little to the exercise.

[Tanuki Tales]

Why spend all the feats to bolster your will save when you could just not take ragechemist? The CON boost isn't until level 10. Until then, all it does is boost strength by 2 and natural armor by 4 (not until level 6). Until then, you are either burning feats to prevent stupiding yourself into a coma or you become a liability to your party. Its just not a good archetype and adds little to the exercise.

Well, you're free to submit your own build to meet the challenge. :smallsmile:

[stack]

Honestly, I would just take crusader 5 and call it good. I know that is against the stipulations as the durability would come from the ToB chassis, but you will be hard pressed to make a better warrior that is both durable and dangerous.

I suppose mixing fist of the forest in on an invulnerable rager would work, getting CON to AC, but not by level 5.

[sol_kanar]

The Half-Fiend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-fiend) template could help the Implacable Gnoll a lot, and it's also flavorful (if you plan to play the tie to Yeenoghu): my question is, how do you take into account this templates in PF? If you use 3.5 rules, it would have a LA +4, and would thus be impractical, but there are several differences between PF's and 3.5 Half-Fiend.

Exploring the Psion + Vigor option, I noticed that the Practiced Manifester feat lets him raise his manifester level up to 6, including his two racial HD.

So, in a first approximation (I am still researching magic items, for the moment I gave it a +1 weapon and a reasonable armor), I got something like this

Gnoll Psion [Egoist] 4

Str 20 = 16 (base) +4 (racial)
Dex 13 (base)
Con 20 = 18 (base) +2 (racial)
Int 14 = 15 (base) -2 (racial) +1 (4th level)
Wis 13 = 13 (base)
Cha 11 = 13 (base) -2 (racial)

HD: 2d8+4d4+30 (49 hp)

AC: 16 = 10 (base) +1 (Dex) +1 (natural) +4 (armor)

Attacks
Base attack bonus +3 = +1 (gnoll) + 2 (psion)
Greataxe
- attack roll +9 = +3 (base) +5 (Str) +1 (weapon)
- damage 1d12+8 = 1d12 (base) +7 (Str) +1 (weapon)

Special Abilities
- Metabolic Healing (Fast Healing 1 for rounds equal to the level of power manifested when he casts an Egoist power that targets himself)

Saves
- Fortitude +9 = +3 (gnoll) +1 (psion) +5 (Con)
- Reflex +4 = +1 (psion) +1 (Dex) +2 (lightning reflexes)
- Will +9 = +4 (psion) +5 (Con, applied with steadfast determination feat)

Feats
1st - Endurance
3rd - Steadfast Determination
5th - Practiced Manifester
Flaw I - Lightning Reflexes
Flaw II - Improved Lightning Reflexes

Powers (17 power points + 6 bonus power points)
1st - Minor Metamorphosis, Natural Healing, Vigor, ...
2nd - Biofeedback, Cleanse Body, ...


Pros: Vigor for 30 hp multiple times, high saves (Reflex can be rerolled)
Cons: Low AC, most of the features come from psionic powers

Going for Psychic Warrior, things change significantly: I tried to exploit the relative abundance of feats to follow stack advice about "Roll with It".

Gnoll Psychic Warrior 4 [Weaponmaster Path]

Str 20 = 16 (base) +4 (racial)
Dex 13 (base)
Con 20 = 18 (base) +2 (racial)
Int 13 = 11 (base) -2 (racial)
Wis 16 = 15 (base) +1 (4th level)
Cha 11 = 13 (base) -2 (racial)

HD: 2d8 (gnoll) +4d8 (psychic warrior) +30 (Con) +6 (toughness) (63 hp)

AC: 21 = 10 (base) +1 (natural) +9 (full plate) +1 (Dex)

Attacks
Base attack bonus +4 = +1 (gnoll) + 3 (psychic warror)
Two-handed sword
- attack roll +10 = +3 (base) +5 (Str) +1 (weapon) +1 (weaponmaster path)
- damage 2d6+8 = 2d6 (weapon) +7 (Str) +1 (weapon)

Saves
- Fortitude +12 = +3 (gnoll) +4 (psychic warrior) +5 (Con)
- Reflex +2 = +1 (psychic warrior) +1 (Dex)
- Will +4 = +1 (psychic warrior) +3 (Wis)

Feats
Flaw I - Toughness
Flaw II - Roll with It
1st - Roll with It
3rd - Roll with It
5th - Roll with It
Bonus (psychic warrior 1) - Power Attack
Bonus (psychic warrior 2) - Cleave
Bonus (psychic warrior 4) - Practiced Manifester

Powers (6 power points + 6 bonus power points)
1st - Biofeedback, Thicken Skin, Vigor
2nd - Body Adjustment

Path powers
1st - Empty Mind, Metaphysical Weapon


Pros: Lots of hp thanks to Vigor, DR 8/-, reasonably high AC, better damage output, lots of answers to ability damage and similar stuff
Cons: Reflex and Will saves are low. Sacrificing a couple of "Roll with It" for Endurance + Steadfast Determination is probably not worth the effort (+2). Maybe some magic/psionic item could help?

[Tanuki Tales]

The Half-Fiend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-fiend) template could help the Implacable Gnoll a lot, and it's also flavorful (if you plan to play the tie to Yeenoghu): my question is, how do you take into account this templates in PF? If you use 3.5 rules, it would have a LA +4, and would thus be impractical, but there are several differences between PF's and 3.5 Half-Fiend.

Half-Fiend is a +1 CR template, so combined onto a Gnoll, the character's "virtual LA" is +2.



snip

Is all of that using the rules for psionics in the 3rd party Pathfinder sourcebook Psionics Unleashed?

[sol_kanar]

Half-Fiend is a +1 CR template, so combined onto a Gnoll, the character's "virtual LA" is +2.


Oh, wow. Then, we have CRAZY bonuses at our disposal, able to improve almost every build. I think that going Half-Fiend (besides being cool because Yeenoghu) is a good choice for the SR.



Is all of that using the rules for psionics in the 3rd party Pathfinder sourcebook Psionics Unleashed?

Yes, I found everything on d20pfsrd.com, with the exception of Practiced Manifester, which is a 3.5 Psionic feat in Complete Psionic.

New version, now with more Demonic power!

Half-Fiend Gnoll Psion [Egoist] 3

Str 24 = 16 (base) +4 (racial) +4 (half-fiend)
Dex 17 = 13 (base) +4 (half-fiend)
Con 24 = 18 (base) +2 (racial) +4 (half-fiend)
Int 16 = 15 (base) -2 (racial) +1 (4th level) +2 (half-fiend)
Wis 15 = 13 (base) +2 (half-fiend)
Cha 13 = 13 (base) -2 (racial) +2 (half-fiend)

HD: 2d8 (gnoll) +3d4 (psion) +35 (Con) = 51 hp

AC: 19 = 10 (base) +3 (Dex) +1 (natural-gnoll) +1 (natural-half-fiend) +4 (armor)

Attacks
Base attack bonus +2 = +1 (gnoll) + 1 (psion)
Greataxe
- attack roll +10 = +2 (base) +7 (Str) +1 (weapon)
- damage 1d12+11 = 1d12 (base) +10 (Str) +1 (weapon)

Special Abilities
- Metabolic Healing (Fast Healing 1 for rounds equal to the level of power manifested when he casts an Egoist power that targets himself)
- SR 16 = 11 + 5 HD
- DR 5/magic
- Immunities: poison
- Resistances: acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10
- Spell-like abilities
-- Darkness 3/day, Desecrate 1/day, Unholy Blight 1/day
- Outsider type (makes him less likely to be subject to some spells)

Saves
- Fortitude +11 = +3 (gnoll) +1 (psion) +7 (Con)
- Reflex +6 = +1 (psion) +3 (Dex) +2 (lightning reflexes)
- Will +10 = +3 (psion) +7 (Con, applied with steadfast determination feat)

Feats
1st - Endurance
3rd - Steadfast Determination
5th - Practiced Manifester
Flaw I - Lightning Reflexes
Flaw II - Improved Lightning Reflexes

Powers (11 power points + 4 bonus power points)
1st - Minor Metamorphosis, Natural Healing, Vigor, ...
2nd - Biofeedback, Cleanse Body, ...


Pros: everything
Cons: ...uh...

This guy has good saving throws, decent AC (but it could be improved), SR, resistence to elemental damage, a lot of HP and the usual Vigor trick, plus Unholy Blight (not extremely powerful, but kinda annoying).

[Occasional Sage]

For Gnoll Love, have you read the webcomic Dark Places? There are tons of reasons to recommend it (the reason not to is that it's on hiatus), but the key one here is that one of the story lines features a very cool gnoll.

Links:
The start of the series (http://darkplacescomic.com/archive/the-well-of-stars-cover)
The start of the arc with the gnoll (http://darkplacescomic.com/archive/the-silver-chain-page-1)
The gnoll's first appearance for the tl;dr types (http://darkplacescomic.com/archive/the-silver-chain-page-12) (and yes, he's recurring after the first scene)
The gnoll's second story (http://darkplacescomic.com/archive/the-boars-head-page-1)