"Worst" martial disciplines.

[Gharkash]

I have seen some discusion concerning Desert Wind and Stone Dragon and rarely Setting Sun and Shadow Hand. It seems that they are considered either weak or not worth the prerequisites to get the better, higher level maneuvers of these disciplines (except some cherry picking when possible).

Is this true? If it is, what is it that makes them weaker or worse in general?

I have an idea but i would like "facts" from more experienced ToB users.

Thanks.

[Flickerdart]

Desert Wind deals mostly in fire damage, and fire is the least desirable type to use because it's the most common resistance on monsters.

[Big Fau]

Desert Wind and Shadow Hand have a severe weakness due to their primarily supernatural nature, but Shadow Hand itself is a solid discipline for the tactical maneuvers (like Shadow Jaunt). Desert Wind also has the problem of being fire-based, which is the worst energy type to use in D&D.

I have never seen someone decry Setting Sun, however, it's more mediocre than bad. Stone Dragon is a weak one because of the obscenely stupid restriction on it (it's an Ex discipline, yet it has a Su-flavored restriction). But even Stone Dragon has a handful of worthwhile tools (primarily the Mountain Hammer line) and it is the discipline with the least number of prerequisites.


Now, comparing any of these to something like White Raven or Devoted Spirit and there is some disparity between power levels, but it isn't that big of a gap.

[tyckspoon]

Stone Dragon's biggest flaw is the requirement that you be standing on solid ground to use them. The second biggest flaw is that a number of its more interesting Stances turn off if you move. Mobility is a *huge* factor in more optimized D&D combat, and the inability to really use Stone Dragon when you're flying/swimming/in a gravity-less plane/trying to chase down a target makes it a weaker choice.

Desert Wind's signature strikes are basically fire blasts. This is bad for all the same reasons blaster casters are, without the add-ons that let you bring spells back up. There aren't any meta-maneuver feats you can use to Empower your Desert Wind strikes, you can't pile on 'caster level' increases to improve the damage they do, you're locked into one element, and your save DCs tend to be poor because you can't afford the mono-focus on your 'casting stat' that a Wizard or Sorcerer can.

There's good individual maneuvers in both schools, certainly.. but those are the reasons they make poor primary focuses.

[Big Fau]

Stone Dragon's biggest flaw is the requirement that you be standing on solid ground to use them. The second biggest flaw is that a number of its more interesting Stances turn off if you move. Mobility is a *huge* factor in more optimized D&D combat, and the inability to really use Stone Dragon when you're flying/swimming/in a gravity-less plane/trying to chase down a target makes it a weaker choice.


Just a note on the stances: Nothing is stopping you from moving and then re-initiating the stance. Stone Dragon allows for a surprising amount of mobility, despite that drawback.

[Duke of URL]

Just a note on the stances: Nothing is stopping you from moving and then re-initiating the stance. Stone Dragon allows for a surprising amount of mobility, despite that drawback.

Entering a stance requires a swift action, IIRC. That precludes the use of boosts (or can't be done if you used a counter in the previous round) on that turn, which can be a big deal. It also means you can't adopt a new stance until after you move (otherwise you lose the benefits once you move), which can be a factor when using a strike that uses movement, charging, etc.

[INoKnowNames]

It's a bit like picking the worst in a group of puppies. They're still puppies, gosh darn it; they're all awesome, and you'd probably be happy to get any one that you can.

Diamond Mind: For Warblades and Swordsages. It is probably -THE- best. You usually can never go wrong with Diamond Mind, and it'd be hard to find something not worth taking in it. Concentration is no longer for Mages, and even without, there's still some sweet stuff.

Iron Heart: Warblade Specific, but pretty darn good. Lots of interesting little tricks here and there that makes the Fighter jealous. And, of course, "Iron Heart Surge". Not much else to be said.

Devoted Spirit: Crusader Specific. Applauded as being one of the few ways that Tanking in D&D can be accomplished successfully. As well as In Combat Healing. Good stuff in here. I like the Lawful Stance at Initiator 6. An 11 on any 1 check almost as much as you want. That is sexy.

Tiger Claw: Warblade and Swordsage. Two Weapon Fighting has always needed love, and Jump is one of the few Str skills not always joked at. A bit of work needed to really use it without Two Weapon Fighting, but it's still a pretty good discipline.

White Raven: Warblade and Crusader. Depends a bit on your allies, but certainly not a bad choice. "White Raven Tactics" is more than enough to keep this from being the worst discipline ever.

Setting Sun: Swordsage Specific. I haven't given this one much testing in games, so I can't speak much on it. Out of all of them, it's probably the one I find hardest to try out, really. Not that it seems bad.

Shadow Hand: Swordsage Specific. Not the best, but has some handy tricks a Swordsage would enjoy. The Shadowport line deserves special attention.

Desert Wind: Swordsage Specific. Fire Damage... lots of enemies resist Fire Damage. And it's hard for an initiator to really do anything about it, since it's Kung Fu, rather than Magic. Still, Hadoken.

Stone Dragon: All Initiators get this. Restricted Movement and being forced on the ground makes this unappealing, and probably the weakest of all disciplines. Gotta be able to move and get to your target... Still, better than nothing by a pretty good margin.

Overall, Desert Wind and Stone Dragon probably are in the running for the weakest of the disciplines. But they sure as heck beat the tar out of nothing at all.

[Soranar]

Some of the disciplines also have non maneuver support

Shadow stances hand lets you use the shadow blade feat which is invaluable to a DEX based character.

White Raven lets you inspire courage as a swift action (invaluable for any bardblade build)

Setting sun is tricky, you'll only get a feel for it once you actually start using it but it is deceptively good.

I've never used stone dragon so I can't pronounce myself on them.

[Big Fau]

Entering a stance requires a swift action, IIRC. That precludes the use of boosts (or can't be done if you used a counter in the previous round) on that turn, which can be a big deal. It also means you can't adopt a new stance until after you move (otherwise you lose the benefits once you move), which can be a factor when using a strike that uses movement, charging, etc.

There really aren't that many useful boosts though. There's a couple of great ones, but someone using a Stone Dragon stance can afford to sacrifice a turn's boost in favor of repositioning a majority of the time (barring WRT shenanigans, but in that case why would you be using Stone Dragon at all?).

[Cespenar]

Setting Sun is good for battlefield control. Throw enemies near your biggest hitter for AoO goodness, place them in flanking positions to enable Rogue or Shadow Hand synergy, throw them in the air for extra falling damage, throw them off of buildings and cliffs for epic kills, etc.

It also has good high level counters, and excellent 5th and 8th level stances.

Not to mention that you can get a free attack with all the throws via Improved Trip.

[skycycle blues]

Admittedly, I haven't read through every word of ToB, but I haven't ever seen the restriction to only being able to use Stone Dragon maneuvers while on solid ground. Can anyone reference a page number?

[INoKnowNames]

Admittedly, I haven't read through every word of ToB, but I haven't ever seen the restriction to only being able to use Stone Dragon maneuvers while on solid ground. Can anyone reference a page number?

Page 81, end of the second intro paragraph.

[Talionis]

Stone Dragon does have the martial "knock" spell at initiator two that lets you ignore Hardness. So even though I generally don't want anything else in Stone Dragon, I at least grab that for a useful Manuever I don't need to keep prepared since I only use it out of combat.

[Metahuman1]

And Who doesn't love Ignoring DR of all types all together?

Also, Stone Dragon has a couple of things in there that are a big help if you want to grapple stuff. I know, Grappling's weak, but it needs a bit of love too.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There really aren't that many useful boosts though. There's a couple of great ones, but someone using a Stone Dragon stance can afford to sacrifice a turn's boost in favor of repositioning a majority of the time (barring WRT shenanigans, but in that case why would you be using Stone Dragon at all?).

It also takes up your immediate action. Which means no counters.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It also takes up your immediate action. Which means no counters.

You have the order wrong.

Turn 1: Rush enemy with Standard/move/full, use swift on stance
Pre-turn 2: Can use your immediate, but if you do so, you can't move to refresh your stone dragon stance.

So, as long as you don't need your stance, you'll be okay with blowing your immediate action.

[Duke of URL]

It's a bit like picking the worst in a group of puppies. They're still puppies, gosh darn it; they're all awesome, and you'd probably be happy to get any one that you can.

+1 to this as well. One of the best compliments that ToB as a whole gets is that it's nearly impossible to screw up making a martial adept. Optimization can make them better, but even a rookie player with no idea what he's doing can make an acceptable character from a martial adept class.