Advice: DMing for teenagers

[Andorax]

I have my own dilema looming in about a week's time. I'm going to start DMing for another group, my son (13) and his friends. Any particular advice or tips would be most welcome, including (especially) from any teens lurking here who can help me with the "what's fun" part of the equation.


I've been DMing for...too long, but virtually always with a peer group. I'm used to having grownups and longstanding gamers at my table. I've introduced a lot of new people to the game, walked them through the rules and such, so I'm not so leery of that (save a lingering concern about attention spans).

My tenative plan is to sit 'em all down on the first night, find out who's actually played before versus who has no clue at all, then offer them two decisions to make:

1) Do you want to create your own characters from scratch...a process that will take up at least one full night, or do you want to grab one of these pre-gens and start bashing on things right away?

2) What sort of campaign interests you (insert menu of options here).


I'm a big fan of modules...not dead-set on them mind you, but they do help me get the action up and going with a reasonable demand on my time. With that in mind, here's the five options I'm looking to present them with:

1) Eberron: initial module series. Starting with the short adventure in the back of the book, and on through the first run of modules (Shadows of the Last War, Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, etc.). Very action-adventure feel should appeal to the age group, and I've actually run some of it already so I have a good feel for the storyline.

2) FR: Undermountain. Straight-up delve. Low on plot, high on easily accessable dungeon real-estate with things to kill. Starts the players off with a hack&slash environment that's easy for newbies to grasp, then I can bring some of the nuance of factions and "things you just shouldn't try to kill first and talk later" into it.

3) Mystara: Classic modules. A setting that is novice-friendly and highly reliant on stereotypes, and the home of a number of "classic" adventures from the Caves of Chaos to Rahasia to Castle Amber. Obviously, converting the old adventures up to 3.5 will take some work on my part, but it would be worth it to bring another generation of gamers up in some of the "old traditions".

4) Greyhawk: Original Adventure Path line...forge of fury et. al. Minor conversion work to 3.5, but not too bad, it lets them get their feet wet with what 3.X considers "classic" adventures.

5) Greyhawk: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Ok, this option is pretty dang brutal for novices, but it's also an adventure I've enjoyed the heck out of running. It's certainly taking the gloves off right out the start.



I'm open to other alternatives if you know of something that you'd think would be an extremely good starter for a group of barely-teens.

I'm also open to any other advice you might offer for how to make this a grand and glorious summertime campaign.

[Othesemo]

My first experience DMing was with more or less the same age group. My first adventure was essentially an orc hunt- the players chose where to go, they found orcs, they killed them. There was some variation in encounters- for example, the found one orc sleeping on top of a rock, and they found three more planning an ambush, but for the most part it was the above.

In terms of general pointers, I'd suggest both that you give them a few story-based choices (for example, choosing which passage to go down), and place action above flowery description.

In terms of the modules that you've presented, I'd vote for the FR. Also, don't go for the temple of elemental evil.

[letters]

I've DM'd for teenagers for the last 6 years or so (we all just turned 20/21 so the games have changed a little bit. more adult beverages) and in my experience I've found:

1) They will definitely want to create their own characters, most of them have probably had some idea for a medieval hero or villain they've cooked up in their imagination that they would love to unleash on the world of DnD.

However, they should probably make them all in their free time while consulting you via text/email/facebook, not at the table. The table is for fast and furious campaign play.

2) These kids are probably powergamers, these are generation Z digital natives who have had Zelda, Halo, and Call of Duty their whole lives. They will most likely like fast paced and challenging games that will test their ability to make decisions quickly, with a good deal of silly situations and humor thrown in.

But what's Dungeons and Dragons without silly situations?


as far as the modules go, I'd highly recommend the greyhawk sunless citadel-forge of fury line. I had great success with a group of 16/17 year old guys and gals with this one.

Just make certain to keep the game moving and feel free to exclude some narrative to speed up the path to combat. This generation loves them some fightin' :smallbiggrin:

[Madara]

Ah yes, my starting age. I had to DM with no prior experience....

Anywho, some notes:

1.) Try to know an estimate of each one's attention span, everyone will want to be telling you what their character is doing. Figure out who is ok with being quiet for awhile, and who you need to give more attention to.

2.) Allow them to make stuff up. The more flexible and less planned things are, the more they'll enjoy it.

3.) Watch out for player rivalries. Odd are that some argument or something will cause them to want to test their power.

4.) Power. This is the beautiful carrot you as DM get to dangle before them. Above all, expect character goals to be as simple as leveling up and getting the loot.

5.) Don't expect 'good guys'. My generation play games in which the character is neutral at best, while playing a shining knight of good can be pretty awesome, making a commoner grovel at your feet is more exhilarating! :smallbiggrin: Play for the Chaotic Neutral style of play, no matter what alignment is on their sheets.

6.) Don't push RP too much. They'll still be trying to get a grasp on the mechanics. While it is good to push them in the right direction at this point in time, RP between players probably won't happen for awhile.



Just make certain to keep the game moving and feel free to exclude some narrative to speed up the path to combat.

Agreed. Be prepared to throw them into a "Random" encounter just to grab their attention after a description.

[Gnome Alone]

Madara, for a certain type of group I'm sure that's good advice, but that is just way too many assumptions about people, knowing nothing about them but their age. I know there's some truth in stereotypes, but I for one was not like that as a teenager and I would've been insulted if it was just assumed I was.

OP, I'd stick with your idea of asking who's played what, and include another important question: what kind of game do you want to play? I will wager that if they are treated with the same respect given to the DM's usual peer group, then it will be reciprocated.

Unless they're hooligans, in which case, hey, you guys are rampaging orc raiders pillaging a town, go nuts!

[Downysole]

When I started playing DnD regularly, we had about 4 people new to the game at the table, me, and one other guy. He was the DM.

The five of us spent hours talking about our characters to each other and how we should balance each other out and how I would be taking these feats and she would be taking fireball when she got to that level... ah good times.

We rolled our characters up, but we used the character generator thingy that came with 3rd edition. In fact, one of our longest standing characters used a randomly generated name from that program, and he still makes guest appearances in our campaigns. I would suggest giving them all the freedom in the world to figure out what they want. Then give them 10 minutes to come up with a level 1 character on paper with your help.

Starting at low levels is exciting for a player who has no idea what he/she's doing and it keeps them from getting bogged down in rules until later.

[Andorax]

I appreciate the caution, Madara...but to be honest, it's good to have a set of base assumptions that I can move away from as needed. What I want to avoid is boring them to tears with what an older group would consider a reasonable "get to you know you" session.

That's also part of the reason I thought of using pregens, and why I'd let them abandon them and create their own afterwards.

At this point, my sum extent of knowledge of the group is:

My son (Michael). 13. He's played a couple of sessions of 4E, a couple sessions of 3.5, and was invited to some other group for a long afternoon of something that seems to bear only a vague resemblance to D&D...I wasn't there, and have *no* idea what they were actually running and how much the DM was just making stuff up off the fly. Beyond that, he's fairly conversant with World of Warcraft.

Likely to join is a couple of friends from the afore-mentioned "oddball" session, including a good friend of his from way back. I don't know how much additional experience they have.

Also potential...he's invited several scouts from his troop and friends from school, whom I'm expecting to show up with only a vague idea of what in the heck D&D is.

[Lateral]

Well, the age... has less to do with gaming than you think. It really depends more on their personalities and what you think they would like. Few things, though:

I doubt they'll want premade characters.
Eberron is a good place to start. If there's one thing every teenager of my generation likes, it's rule of cool. Magic robots? Hobbits riding dinosaurs? Magical apocalypses? HELL. YES.
When you do actually campaign, don't patronize them. They won't appreciate you making things easier or simplifying things for them.
Find out what they like. Your friend's group of friends will likely have a number of similar interests, and if you can find out what they are you'll probably be able to pick out what'll work.
Ask them what they want to do. Seriously, I cannot stress this enough. Would they prefer more roleplaying, puzzle solving, or hack 'n' slash? High or low magic? What setting- forest, underground, city, desert/icy wasteland, plane-hopping, or something else? What kind of themes- Indiana Jones-esque dungeon raiding? Cult-stopping? Murderous hobos? Whatever they want, you try to emphasize.
Try not to overwhelm them with options, though, and help them along. One generalization I will make about my age group: it's hard for us to make decisions, and even harder for groups to come to a consensus.

[leegi0n]

I started gaming at 12. It was a dungeon crawl and although it was a relatively simple one, full of goblins and a couple of orcs at the end, the thrill is one thing I will never forget.

...also, word of advice - no mountain dew at the table. LOL!

[Rhaegar14]

Well, the age... has less to do with gaming than you think.

This. So much this. By the time kids are teenagers, cliques in school are already forming (at the risk of dragging stereotypes into this). "How old are you?" is no longer the most important question when considering whether to make friends with someone. The only legitimate, unifying mention that I've seen in this thread might be attention span, and that's a maybe.

Ask them, and make judgment calls from person to person when you can, but try to figure what the group wants as if they were a group of adults.

[Verte]

Well, I'm not a teenager anymore, but I started playing regularly when I was a similar age and it hasn't been too long since then, so I think I can comment.

I wouldn't assume that 13 year olds are powergamers - I mean, I wasn't really a powergamer back then and I generally preferred roleplaying and exploration to combat. I'd say that young teenagers still match up to the different gamer types. I mean, a kid who's expecting to roleplay may be really disappointed if all they get is one battle after another only loosely connected by a plot. And obviously, someone who's expecting combat may be bored with only roleplaying. So I'd think that a balance of roleplaying, combat, and exploration would probably be best - like with most games where the players' preferences are undetermined.

I do recall that battles tended to take too long when there were more than four players - probably a result of shorter attention spans and differing levels of rules understanding. Personally, I got really bored whenever combat ran for more than 20 minutes per round, especially if it was because one player took 15 minutes on their turn. What Lateral said about reaching consenses seems to hold true for me - I found that it could take over an hour for everyone to make a plan and less than a minute for one person to ruin it. But then again, I doubt that holds true for the whole age group.

Concerning the adventures, I'd say that Forgotten Forge may be a faster intro to the different elements of the game so they can figure out what they like - not that the Mystara adventures or the Greyhawk adventre path wouldn't also be good choices. Starting at level 1 is probably a good idea just to keep things simple.

[deuxhero]

Remember that teenagers are one step closer to chaotic evil by default.

[lord pringle]

For the love of Pun-Pun, Don't treat them like kids. If they are anything like thirteen year-old me they just want to be treated like an adult, so just treat them like standard new players. Give them a tad more help and use action points, but other than that, treat them normal.

[Andorax]

So lose the pregens, and just plan on having the first session be a "what you want to play, where you want to play it, and how you want it to go", just as if they were 30 instead of 13?

Any other suggestions/tips besides the obvious "listen to them"?

I'll probably revisit this thread after gathering some data from 'em next week.

[Palanan]

Given the inherent cool factor with the Eberron setting, plus your own prior experience running some of the intro modules, I'd say Shadows of the Last War would be a good place to start.

If for some reason Eberron doesn't work, I'd suggest Sunless Citadel and Forge of Fury. My first 3.5 group started with those and they were a great all-around introduction to 3.5

[Heatwizard]

If you go with Forgotten Forge, I read a thread for some kind of 'make a neat fight' competition. After they fight Cutter and get past the cops, the guy in the cloak doesn't invite them to 'learn the truth'; instead, the next time they're in a building, goons follow them in. They dispel the magic keeping the building aloft and a fight plays out in freefall. When the party comes out on top (or right before the thing would hit the ground) Whats-her-face d'Cannith restarts the building's power, applauds the PCs for the display, and offers them the job. It patches the clunky adventure hook a bit and gives d'Cannith a more pragmatic sort of feel to her personality, but mainly it's just cool. The building is FALLING! Men are trying to STAB US! I don't remember where I found it off hand, though.

[Invader]

I've found that when I have new players I like to have a session where they make their characters and then we basically spend the rest of the session having random fights to get them really used to how it works.

Its great to jump in quick and get playing but then every round of combat is slowed down by asking how this attack works and what does this spell do and how big is a 20ft radius.

Spending an evening just letting them getting used to the mechanics will lesson the headache when you finally get to the story.

[Andorax]

Heatwizard...I'll give that some thought.


I've found that when I have new players I like to have a session where they make their characters and then we basically spend the rest of the session having random fights to get them really used to how it works.

Its great to jump in quick and get playing but then every round of combat is slowed down by asking how this attack works and what does this spell do and how big is a 20ft radius.

Spending an evening just letting them getting used to the mechanics will lesson the headache when you finally get to the story.

invaderk2, if we can get past character generation and still have some time left, I'm all for the idea, but I'm a bit reluctant to burn a full session getting characters together (recall that I could have numerous players with zero D&D experience) and then burn another full session putting them through mock combat for system familiarity. I think I'd rather just take the initial few fights of the campaign a bit slow and cut them some slack as on-the-job training rather than give them a "doesn't count" hacktest.

[Duke of URL]

My advice, and this isn't age-specific but rather it's for any group of "new" gamers, is to actually use semi-pregenerated characters. Odds are, every single one of them have played enough video games to know that there are a few (or sometime, even just one) "right" way to build a character, so give them a set of partially-fleshed-out options that showcase well-made characters covering the typical party roles.

And by "set", I mean at least 2-3 times as many pre-gens as there will be players. This way, yo can ask them "what kind of character do you want to play?" and be able to present them with options to choose from. As a DM perk, this also means that you can ensure all of the characters are in roughly the same ballpark in terms of power and will be effective in the campaign you plan on running. And any pre-gens you don't use can be saved for another time or easily converted into NPCs.

Give them some ability to customize, but the truly time-consuming things like gear and spell selection, give them pre-made loadouts to speed the process along. If they decide they need/want something else later on, just make sure you give them the opportunity to get it. This should let you get rolling (literally as well as figuratively) quickly enough to get some significant action going in the first session.

I strongly suggest starting them in media res, that is, beginning the actual play portion of the session with an immediate fight, even before doing any description, etc. This will get them involved actively right away, given them a chance to test out their new powers and abilities, and a quick reward.

[Ranting Fool]

Find out what they like. Your friend's group of friends will likely have a number of similar interests, and if you can find out what they are you'll probably be able to pick out what'll work.

Ask them what they want to do. Seriously, I cannot stress this enough. Would they prefer more roleplaying, puzzle solving, or hack 'n' slash? High or low magic? What setting- forest, underground, city, desert/icy wasteland, plane-hopping, or something else? What kind of themes- Indiana Jones-esque dungeon raiding? Cult-stopping? Murderous hobos? Whatever they want, you try to emphasize.

Try not to overwhelm them with options, though, and help them along. One generalization I will make about my age group: it's hard for us to make decisions, and even harder for groups to come to a consensus.
[/LIST]

I would list these three points as Key with any new players (Even if they've played but just not with you)

A mate of mine used to play D&D with his son and their scout group he told me that he really enjoyed getting the kids to work together as a Team (also making sure that the encounters required a wide array of character skills so everyone was able to do something important)

Don't discount RP :smallbiggrin: When I last played with my two youngest brothers they started to lag a bit when combat went on too long and they weren't sure what they were rolling for but had the most fun interacting with city guards (Ogre and Kobald, Comedy Duo Dumb and Dumber) :smallbiggrin:

[Invader]

Heatwizard...I'll give that some thought.



invaderk2, if we can get past character generation and still have some time left, I'm all for the idea, but I'm a bit reluctant to burn a full session getting characters together (recall that I could have numerous players with zero D&D experience) and then burn another full session putting them through mock combat for system familiarity. I think I'd rather just take the initial few fights of the campaign a bit slow and cut them some slack as on-the-job training rather than give them a "doesn't count" hacktest.

Yeah I wouldn't want to use two whole sessions either. One thing you can do to speed character creation up is give them a starting equipment package instead of letting them pick all their own gear. I remember when I first started playing spending waaaay to much time pondering over what mundane items I wanted lol. Maybe just allow them to pick their weapon and armor.

One other thing you can do is play one session before you let them pick their feats. That's another thing people spend a lot of time on. It can actually be nice because it lets them see how their character works a little bit before picking them. Since you're the DM and they're mostly new I don't figure you'll be throwing anything game breaking at them in their first session.

[White_Drake]

Actually, one thing 4e managed to get right was a standard adventurer's kit, which included pretty much all of the essentials (rope, rations, backpack, water skin et cetera) along with total weight and price. It was like the kits in Dungeonscape, but it only cost like 20 gp or so IIRC, and it wasn't specialized like they are. You might want to update (downdate?) this to 3.5, or compile a similar list of things that every adventurer should have to use. Be sure to include rope. LOTS of rope.

[Fitz10019]

If all their prior experiences are from video games, they may not realize the range of options available to them with a human DM. A video game is always limited to whatever the designers chose to develop. Help them break through those limits.

Introduce them to these options, as a starter:

Physical: Climbing (anything, with or without a rope), swimming, grappling, moving or using furniture (hitting someone with a chair), setting a bottle on a doorknob (as an alarm)
Perception: listening at a door, smelling something, looking under furniture, feeling surface texture, being sprayed with blood when near a melee attack

[Lord_Arkaine]

Something I've learned about teenagers...

If something doesn't explode during your first session, there probably won't be another one.

[Ingus]

The only suggestion I feel to give you is: make it clear that this d&d experience will be a cooperative one, not a competitive one (=the party is a team, so go along well, please).
If someone wants to do a evil character, make it clear that a treacherous PC may be unfun to anyone (and potentially to the player too).

[Invader]

I def wouldn't use pre generated characters. One of the biggest draws of D&D is that you get to play that hero that you always wanted to and suddenly someone tells you, "sorry you can't play a Elf Wizard, you're going to be a halfling rogue instead".

[Keneth]

1) Don't pregenerate entire characters but pregenerate things like ability scores (or use standard ones), feat selections, equipment packs, etc. When we started playing D&D as teens we wanted our own unique characters but didn't really have the patience for in-depth stats. No one wants to be an accountant at that age.

2) Lots of cool and powerful items. They likely don't have the capacity to overly optimize their characters, so there should be no problem with giving them strong equipment and powers. We had stuff like extra hands that allowed the character to dual-wield two-handed swords with penalties for light weapons, armors that reflected most spells, swords that bifurcated creatures on crits, dragon companions, and so on. Until you know how to exploit the system, these things just make for a fun gameplay experience.

3) Encounters that matter. Killing a few goblins or avoiding some arrow traps is cool but if you want to keep the younger crowd, you're gonna have throw in a goblin king with a sword twice its size and arrow traps that shoot explosive arrows and let the PCs ride the blast wave into some unfortunate enemy's face. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

I def wouldn't use pre generated characters. One of the biggest draws of D&D is that you get to play that hero that you always wanted to and suddenly someone tells you, "sorry you can't play a Elf Wizard, you're going to be a halfling rogue instead".

Or, do have pregens, but have more pregens than players. If you've got the time, pre-gen up at least two or three characters for each potential member of the party, of each class. That gives a huge variety of potential characters, and will allow ease of creation combined with enough customization.

-Fighter with two-handed weapon: Let them pick axe, sword, club.
-Fighter with sword and shield: Suboptimal, but they're new, so big whoop.
-Fighter or Ranger with bow.
-Fighter or Ranger with crossbow.
-Defensive cleric with buffs and spontaneous healing.
-Offensive cleric with debuffs and spontaneous inflicting.
-Sorcerer with blasting spells.
-Sorcerer with control/summoning/debuff spells.
-Rogue with twin swords/daggers/maces/etc.
Etc., etc. - enough of a variety, and you'll be all set. It'll be very unlikely EVERYBODY wants to be the wizard in their first game, after all.

[Ashtagon]

Have about 2-3 pregens for each trope (in-your-face warrior, healer, clever fighter/rogue, arcane caster). Leave certain aspects (specific weapon, a feat) as semi-open choices (give a choice of 2-3 for each pregen).

Send them to the Caves of Chaos (classic starter adventure). Tell them its open choice - they can declare war on all the tribes, play them against each other, get them to attack the town, or anything else. How they react will tell you a lot about how to run later adventures in the campaign.

[leegi0n]

Remember that teenagers are one step closer to chaotic evil by default.

Boy ain't that the TRUTH!

[Ashtagon]

Boy ain't that the TRUTH!

Contrariwise, I'm saying nope.

Teens are stuck at an awkward phase in life. Sometimes they need to prove their maturity. Sometimes they want to go back to the protective cocoon of childhood. Making assumptions about which mode they are in is the best way to create friction.

[Andorax]

Good advice on the cooperative experience bit, and on the "make sure they know their options are WIDE open" bit.


As far as "gear" is concerned, I'm thinkin I'll just resort to the default packages for the sample PCs in the PHB. Since they're 1st level anyways, then it's easy enough to give the fighter one of the fighter packages (allowing for a weapon sub if desired), etc. Should speed that along.


As far as feats go, how about a middle ground? I'll offer up 2-3 choices, explain what they mean for him.




As far as pregens go (though the current seems to be strongly against it), I had actually intended to have a huge stack of them available so that there's lots of variety, give them all a personality quirk or two...some sort of "handle" to grab ahold of them.

They're also intended to showcase some of the options out there, but still be "one book wonders"...everything you need to know to run the character is in PHB+1 book (CA for the Warlock, PHBII for the Knight, etc.)

I'll probably still stat up and print out the pregens anyways...they can pick them apart for ideas, pick one if it appeals and they don't want to go to the trouble, allow for quick replacement PCs, or as a default if they lose their sheet/bring a friend/etc. to avoid holding up the whole group for one person's sake.

[Andorax]

Still picking apart what I'm going to do. Numbers are a big unknown at this point (at least 2, no clue on upward, he gave out a lot of invites).

I've settled on Eberron, and going with a combination of things I come up with on my own and some of the Dungeon-published Eberron adventures (I'm looking to start things off with Queen with Burning Eyes, D113).


For a starting concept, I'm thinking of an NPC 'patron' of sorts...upwardly mobile upper-middle class individual who wants to 'sponsor' a new group of adventurers, figuring that at relatively small cost, he might well hit it big if they're highly successful, taking a small percentage of their gain. To start them off, he's footing the bill to get them admitted into the Clifftop Adventurer's Guild (Sharn). The CAG will provide a novice-friendly framework, methinks.


Considering having a couple of senior CAG members put these prospective new characters "through the paces" a bit before admitting them as members, as an excuse to go over the basics of combat in a non-lethal and not PARTICULARLY threatening environment.