A Magical World War, or What if Voldemort had won? [Archive]

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 01:49 PM

It first came up as a point on another vs thread I've been running, (Voldemort vs Vader) as a question of how many of Vader's 501st Storm Troopers would it take to put down the Death Eaters, assuming each side was allowed access to it's respective allies.

I dismissed it since the rules of the thread clearly state this was a 1v1 match, but it got me thinking: "Wizards against Storm Troopers? Don't make me laugh, they're outnumbered 10 to 1 and the their opponents have automatic weapons. I mean, the wizarding world could hardly take on mundane forces of Earth, let alone Star Wars."

I didn't bring it up in the thread because I didn't want to start a new argument, but that is now what this thread is for.

The Setup:

Assume Voldemort was victorious at the battle of Hogwarts. He and the Death Eaters are now firmly in control of wizarding in Britain, and subsequently manage to conquer the rest of Europe (Wizarding wise that is). The Death Eaters now feel its time they turned their attention to the Muggle world, and without the ministry enforcing secrecy regulations, attacks on Muggles have increased ten fold.

How is Voldemort likely to begin his conquest of the Muggle World?

How long before Muggle Governments begin to catch on?

If it looks like things are headed towards a full scale showdown between Muggles and Wizards, who is likely to win?

Some conditions:

1) Assume that world governments have not secretly been preparing for this day. Although I would not put it past Langley or MI6 to have some sort of contingency plan (especially since the Prime Minister and we can probably assume the President have at least an inkling of what is going on), for the sake of the argument, let's assume that only they are aware and they have not been planning for a war.

2) No talk of nuclear weapons. It's just silly, if I wanted a Wizards vs Nukes thread I would have started one. No, it's more interesting to consider how Muggle Governments would go about hunting down these infiltrators and combat them on muggle terms, and nuking civlian population centers to try and kill a minority of the population is just ridiculous.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 02:13 PM

I'd like to start initial argument off with a question of numbers. How many Wizards are there, and is it enough to conquer the muggle world?

I'm inclined to say no.

I've looked around for a canon figure of how many Wizards live in Britain, and I haven't been able to find one, but we might be able to extrapolate given what we know from the books and movies.

"In an interview with J. K. Rowling, she said there are about one-thousand students attending Hogwarts at any given time. This is supported by the fact, that when Harry sees his father doing his OWL (in the Pensieve in Snape's office), there are over 150 students. Secondly, during a Quidditch match, everybody was supporting Gryffindor except around 200 Slytherins supporting their own. However, if each year had the same number of students as Harry's, with five boys and five girls in each dorm, there would only be two-hundred and eighty students. This means that there are usually at least 70 students per House per year. (Or there are more dormitories that you don't see. The only ones mentioned in the books are the ones that house the students who are actually in the book, eg Harry, Ron, Neville, Hermione. There are likely more than two dorms for each year.)"

So we've got some conflicting figure there. If we go by what we read in the books, we wind up with about 300 students. If we go by what Rowling envisioned or says, we've got 1,000. I think we should go with the larger figure for the sake of this argument.

Now if we assume that each student is an only child and each child comes from a wizarding family (i.e. is not purely muggle born like Hermione), that gives us a very generous figure of 3,000 wizards.

If we assume again (again, being very generous) that there are just as many single wizards, older wizards and otherwise unattached wizards as their are children and parents, that gives us a total of 6,000 wizards in Britain.

I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but trying to err on the side of caution, by maximizing the potential wizard population. We come to a population of about 6,000 men, women, and children. Now, again for the sake of argument and just so that their aren't any doubts, let's double that figure, for an exaggerated total wizarding population of 12,000 wizards.

London alone has a population of over 7 million people. That's 500 times more muggles in one city than the entire Wizarding population of Britain combined. The London Metropolitan Police Force alone has 31,478 standing officers (http://www.mpa.gov.uk/statistics/police-numbers/), not including community support and part time officers or support staff.

In a sheer game of numbers, I just don't see any way the wizarding world could ever conquer Muggles.

Axolotl

2012-05-30, 02:20 PM

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 02:27 PM

I think I'd have to side with the people who can teleport, turn invisible, mind control and loook like anyone. Even before you get into the really insane stuff like time travel and the ability to hide things so that they're literally impossible to find unless the guy hiding it wants you to find it.

If Voldemort just continued his tactic of covertly mind-controlling or replaceing everyone in a position of power then he's win before anyone realised what was going on. Even if somebody did work it out what could they do? Litterally anyone could be an aganet working for the wizards and they might not even know it themselves so you can't truat anyone else, if you you try to confront them about it then they can just wipe your memory or mind control you, you can't try and capture them and interrogate them because they can just teleport out. At most you could try and get the drop on them and shoot them before they react, but then all you've done is kill one agent and probably volunteered yourself as the next agent.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be hard fought. I am going to say though that Voldemort mind controlling members of Parliament and the Prime Minister isn't going to be as effective though.

Why? Because what is he supposed to do once he's done that? It's not like they can come forward and declare Voldemort and the Wizard victorious. Firstly, no one would believe them. Second, no one would accept that decision. One of the beauties of separation of powers and republican government, is that it's terribly difficult to subvert or create massive conspiracies in, even if you could control people's minds. The sheer number of minds you'd have to control is staggering.

Secondly, I don't think the Death Eaters are going to be content with 'subtle manipulation'. I think you're going to have most of the higher ups pushing for complete dominion, including taking reckless actions like killing Muggles in broad daylight and not bothering to cover it up. It won't be long before people start to catch on that 'something' is going terribly wrong, and react accordingly. With violence.

pendell

2012-05-30, 02:31 PM

The assumption here is that Voldemort has the complete 100% co-operation of every wizard alive with no dissent. I think this unlikely. The losing side of the wizarding war will no doubt attempt to assist the muggle governments. These advisors will provide the technical expertise necessary to identify wizards and neutralize them.

If this does not happen, it's only a matter of time before muggles start noticing things like shapeshifting, teleporting et al in the context of a war once the authorial plot shield is removed. Then there will be captured subjects and an area-51 research laboratory, followed by countermeasures.

Wizards individually have great power, yes, but as Rowling herself pointed out a single man with an automatic weapon is a match for a wizard in combat.

You side with the people who can teleport? I'll side with the people who have greater organization, greater numbers, and greater expertise in the military and intelligence fields. Also, Voldemort may be a genius at magic but he strikes me like a lot of geniuses -- completely at sea when it comes to human nature, which is much more important when motivating, leading, and governing humans.

I believe that Voldemort would be hard put to it to defeat the muggle world, and harder put still to completely exterminate it or rule it for any length of time.

The ultimate outcome of a general war between the wizarding community and the muggles is the utter annihilation of the wizarding community.

Side with Voldemort if you wish. I'll side with Seal Team Six.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Selrahc

2012-05-30, 02:32 PM

Wizards live in communities untraceable by technology or even by maps or scouts.

Wizards can teleport, turn invisible and control people's minds.

This isn't a war. It's a covert take over. The humans never even learn that the wizards exist. The human organizations subverted by the wizards do all the work.

Now if we assume that each student is an only child and each child comes from a wizarding family (i.e. is not purely muggle born like Hermione), that gives us a very generous figure of 3,000 wizards.

If we assume again (again, being very generous) that there are just as many single wizards, older wizards and otherwise unattached wizards as their are children and parents, that gives us a total of 6,000 wizards in Britain.

That's very floopy maths. Why not start from the assumption that Muggle school sizes and Wizard school sizes are similar with population? Or go from the percentage of population in muggle society that are made up by children age 11-18? My home town high school had a population of 20000 and a high school with 1000(The issue being slightly muddled by crossover from other towns, and their High Schools). The population demographics for England say that 5.4% of the population is between 10-19. You're making the rather wild assumption that Wizard children 11-18 make up 1/6 of the population, and you're not bringing compelling book evidence to back up that fact.

EDIT:

The assumption here is that Voldemort has the complete 100% co-operation of every wizard alive with no dissent. I think this unlikely. The losing side of the wizarding war will no doubt attempt to assist the muggle governments. These advisors will provide the technical expertise necessary to identify wizards and neutralize them.

That's a fair enough point. That sort of aid is absolutely needed for the Muggle world to fight, but I think Pendell is right that it would be offered.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 02:46 PM

That's very floopy maths. Why not start from the assumption that Muggle school sizes and Wizard school sizes are similar with population? Or go from the percentage of population in muggle society that are made up by children age 11-18? My home town high school had a population of 20000 and a high school with 1000(The issue being slightly muddled by crossover from other towns, and their High Schools). The population demographics for England say that 5.4% of the population is between 10-19. You're making the rather wild assumption that Wizard children 11-18 make up 1/6 of the population, and you're not bringing compelling book evidence to back up that fact.

I'll be the first to admit population demographics were not my are of study at university haha. That number seems really low to me, but okay, let's use it. if the 1000 students at Hogwarts represent 5.4% of the wizarding population that gives us a total wizarding population of 5.4 million wizards.

That seems a bit high to me based on the numbers we saw more or less in the books and films; it would mean that every 1 in 10 British citizens are wizards.

That's a fair enough point. That sort of aid is absolutely needed for the Muggle world to fight, but I think Pendell is right that it would be offered.

It's something I thought of that I originally didn't include in my numbers argument. I mean, it's not as though the mudbloods are just going to roll over and take it, and you've still got wizards being born into muggle families who won't know anything about what's going on.

Getting back to the numbers though, Pendell pointed out that is assuming 100% cooperation. Let's look at Voldemort's forces. The Death Eaters, a team of less than a hundred of his most loyal and lethal followers who are chosen to wear the Dark Mark, supplemented by a couple thousand more followers not worthy enough to wear the mark or otherwise bullied or cowed into serving him.

Axolotl

2012-05-30, 03:02 PM

I'm not saying it wouldn't be hard fought. I am going to say though that Voldemort mind controlling members of Parliament and the Prime Minister isn't going to be as effective though.

Why? Because what is he supposed to do once he's done that? It's not like they can come forward and declare Voldemort and the Wizard victorious. Firstly, no one would believe them. Second, no one would accept that decision. One of the beauties of separation of powers and republican government, is that it's terribly difficult to subvert or create massive conspiracies in, even if you could control people's minds. The sheer number of minds you'd have to control is staggering.It'd take ten minds, twenty at most if you want to have the opposition as well. From there it's just patience corrupting every office from the top down. And of course you don't announce that Voldemort is in charge, you just make sure that every knows that he's in charge, that he has always been in change and that any person who steps out of line is liable to have a gang of zombies come round to their house and kill their children, if they're lucky.

Secondly, I don't think the Death Eaters are going to be content with 'subtle manipulation'. I think you're going to have most of the higher ups pushing for complete dominion, including taking reckless actions like killing Muggles in broad daylight and not bothering to cover it up. It won't be long before people start to catch on that 'something' is going terribly wrong, and react accordingly. With violence.Except that's exactly how they operated in the books calmy, carefully taking control of everything step by step until they had absolute authority. They could cover up their actions just fine. And if the muggles catch on what can they do? Their armies have already gone, their enemy is litterally impossible to identify and any violence they try will be directed at the wrong people, if anything it would only aid Voldemort's plan by further spreading chaos and paranoia amoung the muggle world.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 03:22 PM

Except that's exactly how they operated in the books calmy, carefully taking control of everything step by step until they had absolute authority. They could cover up their actions just fine. And if the muggles catch on what can they do? Their armies have already gone, their enemy is litterally impossible to identify and any violence they try will be directed at the wrong people, if anything it would only aid Voldemort's plan by further spreading chaos and paranoia amoung the muggle world.

That's exactly how they operated against other wizards, an enemy they respected and knew how to handle (and even then, respect is a kind word). Do the Death Eaters and Voldemort even have the slightest idea how the Muggle Government functions? Their disdain for muggles and everything they do and create would lead me to think otherwise.

The Death Eater's aren't going to want to do a top down conspiracy take over, they are going to want Muggles bowing at their feat and fast, and they're not the most disciplined bunch, despite the icy terror their leader inspires in them.

Bouregard

2012-05-30, 03:24 PM

...

There is a harry potter fanfic somewhere that deals with exact that problem...I can't find the link again. Was somethink with Harry being knighted.

In short: Yes wizards can terrorize muggles. But eradicate or dominate? No.

Memory charms are rendered almost useless against computers and surveilance. If you see yourself doing something you have no memory off = suspicion. Even if they execute or dominate leaders... there is something called the chain of command it's not good to loose the prime minister / a general but certainly not the end.

The hardest part for the muggles will be to find out that magic exist. Once that is established Voldie and his goons will go down hard. And just one muggleborn who tells the government everything (he can easily prove his claims with a wand) will achieve that.

What could Voldie do? First of all he needs to learn how muggles think. He needs to learn about our technology. He needs to learn that magic has weak spots. If he manages to do this then and only then he can start sort of a shadow government. Dominate leaders and let them rule the muggles.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 03:35 PM

There is a harry potter fanfic somewhere that deals with exact that problem...I can't find the link again. Was somethink with Harry being knighted.

In short: Yes wizards can terrorize muggles. But eradicate or dominate? No.

Memory charms are rendered almost useless against computers and surveilance. If you see yourself doing something you have no memory off = suspicion. Even if they execute or dominate leaders... there is something called the chain of command it's not good to loose the prime minister / a general but certainly not the end.

The hardest part for the muggles will be to find out that magic exist. Once that is established Voldie and his goons will go down hard. And just one muggleborn who tells the government everything (he can easily prove his claims with a wand) will achieve that.

What could Voldie do? First of all he needs to learn how muggles think. He needs to learn about our technology. He needs to learn that magic has weak spots. If he manages to do this then and only then he can start sort of a shadow government. Dominate leaders and let them rule the muggles.

Yeah, I just can't see Death Eaters sitting quietly and contently in a shadow government. They want to rule, openly and crush the muggles under their heal. I just don't see that happening, not when when their vastly outnumbered by a better organized and better armed force.

Selrahc

2012-05-30, 03:45 PM

I'll be the first to admit population demographics were not my are of study at university haha. That number seems really low to me, but okay, let's use it. if the 1000 students at Hogwarts represent 5.4% of the wizarding population that gives us a total wizarding population of 5.4 million wizards.

Whoa... what? If 1000 people is 5.4% of the population, there are probably around 19500 wizards. Where do you get 5.4 million? I.. what?

Gnoman

2012-05-30, 03:48 PM

The most obvious course of action, after securing a magical base of power, would be to suborn governments that, like the British wizards, are largely controlled by a very few people. Mind control, though an easy method, wouldn't necessarily be required or desirable to do so. Building up a muggle nation in Africa or South America would not only present few magical signs to the outside world (wizards would likely ignore it as they do most muggle things, while muggles would simply view it as the actions of a very successful warlord), but would pose little danger to his power bloc if things went wrong.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 04:37 PM

Whoa... what? If 1000 people is 5.4% of the population, there are probably around 19500 wizards. Where do you get 5.4 million? I.. what?

Sorry, my math went horribly wrong.

Let's round up to about 20 thousand wizards in Britain. That sounds much closer to the mark.

Really it just goes to prove my point though. I mean, of that 20,000 how many make up Voldemort's loyalists?

Ravens_cry

2012-05-30, 04:42 PM

In the words of Torg (http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/20080428), ALA-KA-BLAM!

Xondoure

2012-05-30, 04:49 PM

We've had this discussion on the boards before. I'm pretty firmly on the side of the magic users. If nothing else because of the dementors. Remember the whole country was falling apart. Giants attacked towns and no one did anything. Imperio is also a literal perfect mind control spell. The right people under their control, and the whole resistance collapses. And no, they wouldn't just come out for the wizarding world and rollover, they'd just subtly sabotage any resistance. It isn't a fair fight. Sure, we have nukes. Until they've taken control of those and any non wizard filled city is radioactive paste.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 05:06 PM

And no, they wouldn't just come out for the wizarding world and rollover, they'd just subtly sabotage any resistance. It isn't a fair fight. Sure, we have nukes. Until they've taken control of those and any non wizard filled city is radioactive paste.

Subtly sabotage resistance? The Death Eaters are not known for their subtlety especially with people like Bellatrix running around. Voldemort never went to civics class, and they're so dismissive of muggle everything I'm not inclined to believe that they have any inkling as to how Muggle Governments work, let alone how to initiate a conspiracy takeover on that scale.

They did it with the ministry, sure. The Ministry is small. It's the equivalent a small city government managing a few thousand people. It's also, by my estimation pretty poorly managed.

Secondly, you didn't read the Rules Xonodoure. Nukes are not relevant to this discussion. No government worth talking about is going to nuke a city for a few wizards. They are not worth discussing, given that a gun makes any muggle just as deadly as any wizard.

More so, since you can't give a child wizard a wand and expect him to kill people. Compare that to a firearm which any child can pick up and have the capacity for mass murder.

Fjolnir

2012-05-30, 05:24 PM

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 05:37 PM

Honestly, the wizards wouldn't bother with taking over parliament, you would be more effective to target the bureaucracy underpinning it, honestly grabbing people like Mr. Weasley works better because as governments change these men and women generally don't.

Clearly someone who understands the functional framework of representative government. It would make a lot more sense to target bureaucratic underlings who manage the various government institutions. That way, they could sabotage the government from the inside, hamstring the world powers and cause civil unrest and economic collapse. It'd be much easier then to impose their will upon less organized and ill-equipped sectarian forces.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done through the use of magic, I'm just saying that the Wizards do not have the know-how, wherewithal, or numbers to pull something like that off.

Ravens_cry

2012-05-30, 05:40 PM

Wizards are quite ignorant of the outside world, even ones with a fannish interest in Muggles like Mr. Weasley, and Voldemort and crew are extremely arrogant. Moreover, the Death Eaters suffer the problem of not making alliances well, being picky even about which *wizards* they will accept, basically giving the Muggles allies who have an understanding and use of magic.
Given that the Muggles have numbers, word of God says that a shotgun toting Muggle wins, very strong potential for allies with magic, and the fact that Death Eaters are about as subtle as week old road-kill and have arrogance that can be measured in kilo-saurons, I'm going to hand it to Muggles.

Fjolnir

2012-05-30, 05:55 PM

They just did it with the ministry of magic, people like Nott and Rookwood used mind control, blackmail, and influence peddling to take the reins over wizards in Britain, and did so in a relatively short time of about a year and a half from Voldy's public reveal at the Department of Mysteries. They know it's effective its just a matter of how much research they have to do to find the right Mr. Simpkins at water and power, so give it 5 years and the Death Eaters and their Ministry of Magic collaborators (Delores Umbrige Et Al.) will have something resembling total government control.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 06:05 PM

Devonix

2012-05-30, 06:17 PM

They nearly took over a very small community IE smaller than Most cities while using their entire Might. I don't see them using such tactics to take over the world.

The numbers just aren't there.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 06:26 PM

They nearly took over a very small community IE smaller than Most cities while using their entire Might. I don't see them using such tactics to take over the world.

The numbers just aren't there.

A community they knew the intimate workings of, unlike the Muggle government.

Forum Explorer

2012-05-30, 07:03 PM

Ravens_cry

2012-05-30, 07:12 PM

Gnoman

2012-05-30, 07:30 PM

Yeah this is an easy win for the Muggles. All the Muggles need to do is capture a single wizard or have a single wizard traitor to learn exactly what the wizards are capable of. From there it's a matter of cleaning house.

Even assuming that you could learn "exactly what wizards could do," it wouldn't be just a matter of "cleaning house." Wizards have the power to become completely invisible, look like anyone, control anyone (muggles would be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse than wizards, as very few of them have any training in defending against magical mental attacks), and heal from the most severe wounds in minutes. More likely, if a modern military was able to learn all that, they'd become extra cautious and paranoid.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-30, 07:55 PM

Even assuming that you could learn "exactly what wizards could do," it wouldn't be just a matter of "cleaning house." Wizards have the power to become completely invisible, look like anyone, control anyone (muggles would be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse than wizards, as very few of them have any training in defending against magical mental attacks), and heal from the most severe wounds in minutes. More likely, if a modern military was able to learn all that, they'd become extra cautious and paranoid.

You're not even dealing with the central issue here, which is that once muggle governments know they're dealing with Magic, they can employ mudbloods and other pro-muggle wizards to root out Voldemort infiltrators, or even come up with screening processes to weed out people under mind control (I doubt they'd hold up to polygraph testing and profiling).

From their, it's a matter of using their superior numbers, organization and combat experience to eradicate Voldemort's inner-circle from the top down.

Istari

2012-05-30, 08:03 PM

Dumbledore lives

2012-05-30, 08:10 PM

One very important factor is are we including magical beasts into the equation? A single Dementor could theoretically kill an entire community while invisible and I'm not even sure if they can be hurt through physical means. In the movies maybe, but in the books they are kind of insubstantial, more of a presence than anything else. We also hear that giants can create effects not dissimilar to tornadoes, so without too many giants, and there are a bunch, civilian centers would take massive damage.

Even without the creatures they do still have mind control and teleportation, so with efficient use of both hey could control most governments within a year. As for whether that happens, it doesn't with Voldemort. He would hold the muggles in contempt and go for a very aggressive campaign which would kill a hell of a lot of muggles, but a lot of wizards as well so he'd be fighting a losing war, mainly by numbers. The wizard population would not be wiped out because of all the safe havens and ability to be unchartable, but he personally would not win a war. Dolohov might be able to.

Ravens_cry

2012-05-30, 08:11 PM

I think the issue here is that neither group can really take the other on. The death eaters aren't likely to take the necessary steps to take over the government properly and they can't win in an open war. However, there is very little way for any muggles to pick out wizards in a crowd so as soon as any attempted plan goes south, they could pull back into obscurity and try again. Granted the muggles might be significantly more prepared at that point, but I don't know if you can defeat a group of wizards who are properly prepared to counter muggles.

Actually, it would be fairly easy to weed out wizards from the general population. Find people who seem uncomfortable or unfamiliar with modern technology, like pants (http://b1nd1.deviantart.com/art/Muggle-Pants-25254504), yet have, or at least claim, to lived in a developed country for many years.

Tvtyrant

2012-05-30, 08:15 PM

Istari

2012-05-30, 08:17 PM

Actually, it would be fairly easy to weed out wizards from the general population. Find people who seem uncomfortable or unfamiliar with modern technology, like pants (http://b1nd1.deviantart.com/art/Muggle-Pants-25254504), yet have, or at least claim, to lived in a developed country for many years.

Perhaps, but requires picking out likely wizards and tracking them down to individually question them. Considering that if a war was going on, I suspect that most wizards would probably apperate away if they thought they might be pulled in for questioning.

Ravens_cry

2012-05-30, 08:24 PM

Perhaps, but requires picking out likely wizards and tracking them down to individually question them. Considering that if a war was going on, I suspect that most wizards would probably apperate away if they thought they might be pulled in for questioning.
Which proves they are wizards. Remember, the Muggle governments know about wizards. They probably keep tabs as best they can; they would be foolish in the extreme not to.

CapnRedBeard

2012-05-30, 08:38 PM

100% of the wizards would not be on the wizards side. Divide and conquer is the oldest and most successful strat ever. You would have "traitors" a plenty. Wizards that just did not want to fight. Disagreements amoungst themselves on how to proceed. This isn't a 12,000 headed beast...it's 12,000 wizards having to elect a leader...follow him completely...

Whereas humans have such a numbers advantage that wizards couldn't even sleep. They'd be hunted...hard.

Muggles know the magic of technology. How long before they can scan areas and find wizards?

CapnRedBeard

2012-05-30, 11:18 PM

Let's really look at the technology of the world...muggle magic.

The year we are fighting in is 1998? After the internet...right?

Do the wizards have ANY communication as powerful as the internet?
Satellites? GPS? Cell phones? As reliable as our tech? As easy to master as our tech? An 8 year old in Australia can communicate with a 5 year old in Boston, USA. Can wizard children do anything of that sort using magic?

Our magic isn't hocus pocus wave a wand and sprinkle some powder...it's instantaneous and usable by every single one of us equally. Do I need to be a powerful arch-wizard with 20 years experience in the dark arts to watch a satellite video feed of a suspected lair?

Teleportation is great for them...I can communicate with agents all over the world as fast as anyone can teleport. All I have to do is talk into a mic...teleport 20 times...i just have to talk a few words 20 times.

Just how many times can a wizard teleport before tiring? 24/7 tracking.

There has to be some measurable residue/energy emitted when magic is used. Wizards that are not onboard with fighting 6 billion people will help us find that traceable signature.

Giants can be cut down. Dragons and the like hit with bullets/rockets n the like. How do wizards detect missiles? Nukes are off the table...but that leaves muggles with about 12,000 varieties of missiles. If a place like Hogwart's exists in reality in this scenario...it's rubble. Any building that held more than 5 wizards is rubble.

Tiki Snakes

2012-05-30, 11:43 PM

Anteros

2012-05-31, 01:19 AM

Could wizards with the powers we see in Harry Potter conquer the world? Yes.

Could Harry Potter wizards conquer the world? Not even close.

They have the power, but they're far, far too stupid. Not really much else to say about it honestly...

Ravens_cry

2012-05-31, 02:09 AM

When I clicked on the thread, I was expecting a discussion of the reprocussions of Voldemort's takeover of Magical Britain, specifically how the rest of the wizarding world would react to Voldemort siezing power.

Kind of dissapointed to find it's just yet another Wizards vs Muggles thread, to be honest. Though it was almost worth it for the Muggle-Pants link there. :smallsmile:

Does Rowling go into much detail about the rest of the world for any meaningful discussion to be had?
***
While electronics may not work directly inside magic rich or intentionally shielded areas, what about a laser microphone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_microphone)?
No actual electronics is inside the building, so there is nothing for the technology inhibiting voodoo to disrupt.
Flyover with spy drone or reconnaissance satellites might also provide valuable intelligence.

Terry576

2012-05-31, 06:04 AM

Guys, they can Obliviate. They literally have a do-over spell for any situation involving Muggles.

The Glyphstone

2012-05-31, 06:20 AM

Obliviate isn't a rewind-time spell, it just erases memories, and we lack any solid information on how precise it is/how far back it can reach, or for that matter how strong it is.

Fragenstein

2012-05-31, 07:52 AM

Honestly I don't think the wizards have a chance. If news of evil wizards got out, what do you think the other nations in the world would do? There would be a rather vicious purging process in most of the dictatorships better run nations, and then it would just be Voldemort and his gang hanging out in England.

There'd be a lot of paranoia, yes. There would also be a lot of lynching. Unfortunately, since wizards are identified as people who act and dress strangely... that's bad news for any regular con-goer that I've ever met.

Man. A lot of variables here that we really have to figure out. What's Voldemort's goal? His insanity would point towards the extinction of all muggledom, but is he really that far gone? Does he think there are enough pure-blooded wizards left to propogate without suicidle degrees of inbreeding?

Actually, he might. I believe that was an issue within Tom's own bloodline and the purebloods don't see it as a problem.

So if extinction is the goal, the Deatheaters would likely open with a series of lightning strikes. Show up in a town, kill everyone, vanish without a trace. That's going to be pretty effective. What muggle is going to see masses of mysterious deaths and think that wizards are responsible? Tens of thousands might be wiped out in Great Brittain alone before anyone catches on.

And that's just one nation. Dark wizards from all over the globe are likely to execute simultaneous attacks. An unprepared muggle world is going to be devastated by this initial movement.

But so what? Voldemort has already shown he wouldn't start by targeting the military. Even if they kill millions before the word 'wizard' is even mentioned. There are billions of able-bodied muggles to deal with. Without spells of mass destruction... the wizards are going to be in trouble here.

However, drone's are unlikely to discover any hardened wizarding installation. No police helicopter, news chopper or other form or air transport over London has spotted Diagon Alley. When a wizard hides something, it stays hidden.

Hogwarts isn't the only British school, just the most prestigious. There are other schools, offices and communities all over the world and a World Cup to rival football in its gatherings. Those are never spotted.

I would like to see the exact quote Rowling's made about machine gun/sniper vulnerability, however. Is that an unprepared wizard she was talking about? With the correct protection spells in place and the wand-wielder made ready for war, would they still be as vulnerable?

Oh... and, yes. They do have radios. When Harry goes underground, the resistance makes use of secret broadcasts to disseminate information. Plus the earlier books have the Weasley family watching a broadcast performance. I just can't remember if that was a television or another radio, however.

Avilan the Grey

2012-05-31, 08:00 AM

WOG has stated, as we all know, that a powerful wizard vs a muggle with a shotgun is at least 50-50 and probably a sure muggle win. And that's a farmer with a gun. Now imagine if MI5 or KGB got their hands on some wizards...

Simply put, Voldy and the gang has done nothing that muggles haven't already done to eachother (just by different means, perhaps) and well... if push really came to show? To borrow from the Other Harry: To wake up the human population is a nuclear event. It will not end well for the magically skilled.

As for hidden places... What happens if we ignore the actual hidden alley, or house, and instead just detonate a bomb at the correct place, even if the house isn't visible? For that matter, have an undercover mudblood smuggle a bomb in, or transmit coordinates from within?

pendell

2012-05-31, 08:06 AM

Our magic isn't hocus pocus wave a wand and sprinkle some powder...it's instantaneous and usable by every single one of us equally. Do I need to be a powerful arch-wizard with 20 years experience in the dark arts to watch a satellite video feed of a suspected lair?

Having just had an .. interesting .. day yesterday, I feel compelled to make this observation.

All the crystal balls or satellite surveillance or human spies or tea leaves or whatever -- muggle or wizard -- are of limited use if the user doesn't have the sense to understand what he sees.

It takes humility and love of the truth to make sense of observations, whether magical or mundane, and to escape the traps of cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and all the other nasty traps the human mind can play on itself.

Intelligence is useful only to the intelligent.

We haven't seen enough of muggles in the potterverse to know if any of them are capable of reasoning well, and therefore of successfully prosecuting a war. But I've seen nothing to indicate that Voldemort is. If Palpatine was leading the wizards, that might be a different story. But Voldemort? Highly unlikely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fragenstein

2012-05-31, 08:18 AM

WOG has stated, as we all know, that a powerful wizard vs a muggle with a shotgun is at least 50-50 and probably a sure muggle win. And that's a farmer with a gun. Now imagine if MI5 or KGB got their hands on some wizards...

This is the 'word' I'd like to see. What context was Rowling putting that into? Is she flat out stating that wizards have no form of shielding that can stop fast flying lead, or is she saying that the farmer with the gun has gotten the drop on the wizard?

Links, anyone?

Simply put, Voldy and the gang has done nothing that muggles haven't already done to eachother (just by different means, perhaps) and well... if push really came to show? To borrow from the Other Harry: To wake up the human population is a nuclear event. It will not end well for the magically skilled.

Yeah, this is my gut instinct -- that the wizards don't stand a chance. But we don't know that for certain without a few more hard clarifications. Could Voldemort secretly conquer the world by infiltrating governments after a proper period of study? Absolutely.

Would he, though? Probably not. Nor would he be likely to just throw open his robes and piss on the front steps of Downing street. The secret, initial slaughtering of muggles would be horrific. Unfortunately, it probably wouldn't be specifically directed at the military.

As for hidden places... What happens if we ignore the actual hidden alley, or house, and instead just detonate a bomb at the correct place, even if the house isn't visible? For that matter, have an undercover mudblood smuggle a bomb in, or transmit coordinates from within?

Well you have to find those places first. They've gone undetected for centuries. 12 Grimmauld place was protected to the point where even the people living in adjoining buildings had no idea it was there. The place practically existed in another dimension.

An undercover mudblood is going to be tricky. Deatheaters are very particular about family backgrounds and Voldemort is one of the greatest mind-readers ever born.

But none of that matters given the sheer force of numbers the dark wizards would face. Unless they come up with a way to make themselves immune to gunfire, they're eventually done for. That's why I want to see Rowling's actual quote about the shotgun in context.

Eldan

2012-05-31, 08:19 AM

Little Math exercise:

Can wizards wipe out humans?

We have about 12000 wizards.

We have about 7 billion humans.

Newest estimate I could find shows that the world population increased by 78 millions in the year 2011.

So, assuming all 12000 wizards go on an Adava Kedavra campaign. Each of them has to kill 6500 humans per year to keep numbers even. That's about 17.8 humans per day.

I'm surprised. That's actually doable. I thought it would be more, but, if they can get high enough efficiency going in finding humans, that's one dead human per wizard per hour with six hours left for sleep.

Fragenstein

2012-05-31, 08:25 AM

I'm surprised. That's actually doable. I thought it would be more, but, if they can get high enough efficiency going in finding humans, that's one dead human per wizard per hour with six hours left for sleep.

That's why the death toll is going to be so high in the beginning. It will take a LONG time for the world to come to grips with being attacked by actual wizards. Confusion and dissonance will prevent organized resistance, and during that time the slaughtering will continue.

Once the humans catch on, however, and formulate retaliations...?

Well, again I want to actually see Rowling's quote on a properly warded wizard being vulnerable to gunfire.

Avilan the Grey

2012-05-31, 08:36 AM

This is the 'word' I'd like to see. What context was Rowling putting that into? Is she flat out stating that wizards have no form of shielding that can stop fast flying lead, or is she saying that the farmer with the gun has gotten the drop on the wizard?

Links, anyone?

...

An undercover mudblood is going to be tricky. Deatheaters are very particular about family backgrounds and Voldemort is one of the greatest mind-readers ever born.

Trying to find the link.

Anyway, first of all 99% of all wizards has no idea what guns are. Hermione (I think) highlights that fact in the beginning of Azkaban, where the wizard newspaper explains what a gun is "it's a kind of wand muggles uses on eachother". Second, a trigger is at least in theory always quicker than a spell, if only for the waving and shouting part.

"Abra-" (Boom! Headshot!) anyone?

Also, even a wast majority of those that knows what guns are has absolutely no knowledge how far muggle technology has reached in the last century. You might be prepared for a handgun... but are you prepared for bombs? Flamethrowers? Chemical and Bacterial warfare? Nuclear weapons? With the exception of a few technophiles like Mr Weasley, it seems they only have adopted early 20th century tech, tops (radio, manual typewriters (which they converted to magical ones).

As for your other point... I don't think there are enough death-eaters to monitor everything and everyone.

Edit: also: there is NOTHING that propells modern technology faster than warfare. As soon as we catch on to what goes on, I am expecting to see both actual magic employed on our side as well as specific anti-magic measurements taken. Quickly.

Fragenstein

2012-05-31, 08:44 AM

... Flamethrowers? Chemical and Bacterial warfare...?

Yes, they have spells to grant immunity to fire plus spells to repell harmful agents. These can be cast once and then maintained for free. They also have spells to repell hurled objects... but clearly a .50 round fired from 100 yards away would take a wizard's head off by surprise.

But what about a prepared wizard who's fully armored himself in the latest and greatest protection spells?

I don't know. I'd like to see what Rowling has to say about it.

Nuclear weapons...

We've been instructed to discard the nuclear option as no nation on earth would be willing to nuke itself to solve the wizarding problem. I'm not so sure. If the Deatheaters manage to establish a lethal enough presence, then some cowboy is going to see it as the ultimate option and push the button.

As for your other point... I don't think there are enough death-eaters to monitor everything and everyone.

I don't think there are even enough Deatheaters to get the job done. But, like I said, we need to see exactly how well protected a fully prepared, magical killing machine is against conventional weapons.

Ravens_cry

2012-05-31, 09:40 AM

I don't know. I'd like to see what Rowling has to say about it.

I believe she said something along the lines of "In a fight between a Muggle with a shotgun and a wizard with a wand, the Muggle will win."

pendell

2012-05-31, 09:54 AM

IMO, nuclear weapons are pointless because it's using an axe to spank a fly. A war against wizards is a war of intelligence, much like terrorism vs. counter-terrorism. An identified wizard can always be taken down by a muggle swarm. Wizards win only so long as they can stay hidden.

In short, the wizards-vs-muggle war degenerates into a global werewolf game.

Hmm? Has anyone run that over in the games forum?
Alpha -Voldemort
Devil - ??

Other roles?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fragenstein

2012-05-31, 10:12 AM

IMO, nuclear weapons are pointless because it's using an axe to spank a fly.

Maybe, but that's only if Voldemort breaks from his established tactics and stops with the mass slaughter under cover of darkness (or conjured fog).

If the muggles are watching and see where the Deatheaters have gathered to perform their next purge, a nuke or a MOAB might be enough to end the war.

If the Deatheaters get smart and turn this into a secret war of infiltration and assassination... I don't think we'd stand much of a chance.

And I don't want to know what 'something along the lines' information Rowlings has given. I want to know the exact context in which it was layed out.

polity4life

2012-05-31, 10:22 AM

Another thing to consider is how the muggles will respond to an overt attack by the magic world. I'm not saying this is the obvious conclusion but I wouldn't be surprised, given a large enough assault by magicians, that many countries would push very hard for a response backed by the public that is being inundated with Great War and World War II style propaganda that dehumanizes the enemy to a fantastic degree. That would develop the resolve to wage a possibly prolonged war for quite some time.

But even if that doesn't work, I'm sure the mother of all bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast_bomb) will meet up with the father of all bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs) for a date anywhere remotely considered a magic-haven time and time again, or until the money runs out.

I don't bring up these conventional "super weapons" as evidence of a muggle silver bullet. I bring these up because these weapons are considered less effective than heavy utilization of smaller weapons that more vehicles can carry, and both of these vastly outnumber these big box items.

Also, just to give you a better idea of the sheer volume of military materiel that the magicians would encounter, give this a read (http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/westmb012302%5b1%5d.pdf). It's from 2002 but it really gives you an idea of power that muggle nations can bring to bear in an all-out war.

pendell

2012-05-31, 11:09 AM

And I don't want to know what 'something along the lines' information Rowlings has given. I want to know the exact context in which it was layed out.

Sorry I can't help. I've done looking on AccioQuote and Leaky Cauldron but the specifics aren't showing up. It's a quote that's floating around the internet all over the place but cannot be traced to a specific interview. I suspect there's been some context drift since the original statement.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ravens_cry

2012-05-31, 11:10 AM

And certain Muggles are aware of the paranormally-inclined, including those in high office, like the British Prime Minister and presumibly the President of the United States of America. Combine that with Mudblood wizards and witches defecting, Muggle technology, Wizard ignorance of the Muggle World and Death Eater arrogance, and well, it wouldn't be over by Christmas, but I think a Muggle victory can be presumed, as bloody as it will be.

Fragenstein

2012-05-31, 11:49 AM

... but I think a Muggle victory can be presumed, as bloody as it will be.

Yeah. Wizards have it in them to conquer the world, but it'd take a less murderous mind than Voldemort's to lead them to it. Human death on a scale unseen in history, probably, but there are just too damn many of us.

A clever wizard army would make a study of the muggle world before they began any sort of campaign. Armed with enough knowledge of what real war is like, they could probably take us.

Remember that they can do more than just manipulate our minds and blow us to bits. They can also dominate our very environment. They can control weather, burn crops, animate cities and overwhelm technology with a concentrated effort.

A cold war against the wizards would likely have a much more dire ending for us.

Bouregard

2012-05-31, 12:08 PM

Guys, they can Obliviate. They literally have a do-over spell for any situation involving Muggles.

The most pointless spell against muggle that I can think of (crucio is a close second thought, and polyjuice the third).

If you would obliviate away all my memories from the past week:
You wouldn't change my notebook, my browsing history, my colleagues who want something from me I didn't remember, CCTV, my calendar, my memos.

Muggles effectivly outsourced their brain. The spell would fool me for a couple of hours. If things don't add up I will get suspicious and I will trust gadgets only I have access to far more then my own wetware.

Oh and about a fully protected wizard with the best in protection spells Diagon Alley has to offer:

A bullet doesn't need to penetrate the shield. Think bout knights in plate armor vs. maces.

Also while they may survive it, their wands and clothing will not. And a wizard without a wand is bloody useless.

Fun stuff to use against wizards: stun grenades, tazers

Also if the wizards are smart they stay on the ground. A broom or a flyspell is an instant giveaway that they are the enemy and not a harmless civilian. And yes modern anti air weapons are capable of shooting large bird sized objects out of the sky. They spend quite a bit money to find ways to stop wasting surface to air missiles on birds.

Kobold-Bard

2012-05-31, 12:08 PM

One very important factor is are we including magical beasts into the equation? A single Dementor could theoretically kill an entire community while invisible and I'm not even sure if they can be hurt through physical means. In the movies maybe, but in the books they are kind of insubstantial, more of a presence than anything else. We also hear that giants can create effects not dissimilar to tornadoes, so without too many giants, and there are a bunch, civilian centers would take massive damage.

...

Magical critters are the only way I can see the Wizards having a hope in this. As far as I recall magic is powerful, but limited in scope; individual Wizards have to deal with individual targets, they don't really have any wide ranging power in spells alone.

But like you said a single Dementor can wipe out an entire community (or military or political or religiously significant target) in a short space of time. And unlike Wizards, Muggles have no defence against Dementors.

A Basilisk would be a devastating weapon, and can kill enemy Wizards as easily as easily as Muggles.

And then there's Dragons. While I can't remember how powerful they are in HP, the sheer concept of being attacked by goddamn dragons would freak most civilians out to the point of being rendered useless.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-31, 12:24 PM

To answer the question regarding Wizards vs Muggles armed with guns, Rowling herself said that the average wizard is no more dangerous than an average person armed with an automatic weapon.

Moreover, while it was never canon in the books, Dolores Umbridge uses Protego to protect herself from the arrows of the centaurs, and McGonagal uses it to block the swing of a giant's club. If not for these incidents I never would have thought the spell would have been effective against physical objects.

So, a strong shield charm would probably protect a wizard from bullets for a time. But there's two more things there to consider. Can a wizard raise a shield spell faster than a bullet can be fired from a gun? My instincts tell me no. Secondly, will a shield spell hold up indefinitely to concentrated fire? If the wizard casting it is powerful enough, yes.

The real problem is, and this is pointed out in the 6th book,
Fred and George Weasley realised that most adult wizards, even those employed by the Ministry of Magic, could not produce a functional Shield Charm. They used this to their advantage when marketing their line of protective clothing (hats, cloaks, etc), upon which Shield Charms were cast. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Charm)

pendell

2012-05-31, 12:32 PM

Is this what you're thinking of (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Muggles%27_Guide_to_Harry_Potter/Places/Azkaban)?

Quite clearly, the first thing one must do when you imprison a wizard is to confiscate his wand; a wizard with a wand is as well-armed as a Muggle with a gun, and significantly more capable. Yet wizards do have some ability to perform magic without wands; we see Harry do so on a number of occasions, when his tension is particularly high. We also believe Apparition does not require wands. There are evidently spells that can prevent Apparition, and of course those must be set on the prison proper. That does leave the possibility of an escape being carried out by a Wizard or Witch who does wandless magic when very tense. This may be the rationale for the Dementors: by damping all good feelings, it may be impossible for the prisoners to become agitated enough to perform wandless magic. Despite all these safeguards, however, it is certainly possible for a witch or wizard to break out of Azkaban; Dumbledore has stated that he could break out of Azkaban if he was imprisoned, and large numbers of Death Eaters do so on two known occasions, though it must be noted that both of these major breakouts occurred after the Dementors had abandoned Azkaban to enter Voldemort's service.

I don't know if that 'analysis' is directly sourced from Rowling or not -- I suspect not. But a quick jot of over-analysis suggests that it does not say an armed muggle is more powerful than a wizard -- only that the two are comparable although the wizard is "significantly more capable".

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fjolnir

2012-05-31, 12:49 PM

Terry576

2012-05-31, 02:37 PM

WOG has stated, as we all know, that a powerful wizard vs a muggle with a shotgun is at least 50-50 and probably a sure muggle win. And that's a farmer with a gun. Now imagine if MI5 or KGB got their hands on some wizards...

Quote doesn't exist. Try and find it, and you will find that it does not actually exist off of a reliable source.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-31, 02:46 PM

A wand far outstrips a gun in usefulness, a gun provides one with a very limited skillset, while a wand is essentially a well stocked survivalist pack, lockpicks, AND a gun. By that I mean you give a similarly skilled muggle a gun and a wizard their wand and dump them in the woods somewhere, the wizard will come out on top due to the massive amount of toolbox just having magic provides...

Drop em both in the woods, yes. But face them off at 20 paces and tell them to kill each other? The Muggle has the advantage. Wands can do a whole lot of things, but spells to kill people with require a good deal of strength and most importantly the intent to kill. There's probably a few dozen ways you could disable someone, but the actual curses and spells that can cause death require one thing a gun doesn't: intent to kill.

Not every wizard can pick up a wand and use the killing curse, fiendfyre, or more malicious spells. Anyone, even a child, can pick up a gun and commit multiple murders.

Fjolnir

2012-05-31, 03:16 PM

pendell

2012-05-31, 03:54 PM

what about disabling spells that don't require malice to channel them, such as petrificus totalus? heck the disarming charm seems to do a lot more than that in the movies, someone who has mastered silent casting could easily beat a gunfighter at 20 paces, he just might not outright KILL him

This assumes that the two combatants face off like gunfighters and first draw wins. What if it's a sniper duel? What if the muggle knows how to dig a pit trap? Does the wizard have the ability to find food? How will the wizard keep watch if s/he sleeps? Can the wizard be tricked into shooting at a decoy? Will invisibility work for the wizard if the wizard nonetheless doesn't know how to move silently in the bush and starts crashing around?

For Metal Gear fans, how would Voldemort and Naked Snake/Big Boss fare against each other if they were both dropped into a jungle with choice of any equipment/spells/whatever they desire? Only one rule: Two men enter, one man comes out. Further assume that each is given a full tactical briefing on the other's capabilities.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

1dominator

2012-05-31, 04:05 PM

They do not need to kill us all, they just need to sabotage our infrastructure and society will come toppling down like a house of cards. It really would be no contest, the modern world is far to dependent on fragile systems of supply to survive attack by an army of teleporting, mind controlling terrorists. You have to appreciate how difficult is to feed, supply and maintain a population of 7+ billion. The logistical task of moving food, goods, people and energy about would become night impossible in the face of opposition that can by anywhere in an instant. They wouldnt even have to touch the army, political system or cities, just let them starve and freeze to death.

Or voldemort would do something dumb and try to engage the whole world in open total war, that seems more likely.

Xondoure

2012-05-31, 04:18 PM

Gnoman

2012-05-31, 04:18 PM

Not every wizard can pick up a wand and use the killing curse, fiendfyre, or more malicious spells. Anyone, even a child, can pick up a gun and commit multiple murders.

Even if you stretch the definition of "child" up to the early teens, most people would have a hard time killing someone with a gun. It's far more difficult to hit a man-sized target at anything but point-blank range than TV or video games would suggest. If the target is moving, and at a decent range, it's far more difficult. YOu need some form of combat training, or hours on the firing range, to have a decent chance.

On the converse, every single wizard in Britain has rudimentary combat training, and the least skilled have been shown to perform disabling attacks.

Note that dodging plays heavily in wizard duels. Outside of the formal dueling club, pretty much every wizard fight seen involves lots of movement, so shooting a wizard would be no easier than shooting a muggle soldier.

CapnRedBeard

2012-05-31, 04:18 PM

That's why the death toll is going to be so high in the beginning. It will take a LONG time for the world to come to grips with being attacked by actual wizards. Confusion and dissonance will prevent organized resistance, and during that time the slaughtering will continue.

Once the humans catch on, however, and formulate retaliations...?

Well, again I want to actually see Rowling's quote on a properly warded wizard being vulnerable to gunfire.

Really? How long did it take Americans to get upset at Muslims after 9-11?

3 minutes?

A plan to remove the leadership of the enemy was probably all set in a few days. That's all these war rooms do. Plan war. Against everybody.

I'd bet my life there are plans for alien invasion where the technology is vastly superior to our own. Honestly? Wizards technology is NOT vastly superior to our own. Still waiting to hear about the Wizards version of the internet. And they are the minority.

CapnRedBeard

2012-05-31, 04:23 PM

Even if you stretch the definition of "child" up to the early teens, most people would have a hard time killing someone with a gun. It's far more difficult to hit a man-sized target at anything but point-blank range than TV or video games would suggest. If the target is moving, and at a decent range, it's far more difficult. YOu need some form of combat training, or hours on the firing range, to have a decent chance.

On the converse, every single wizard in Britain has rudimentary combat training, and the least skilled have been shown to perform disabling attacks.

Note that dodging plays heavily in wizard duels. Outside of the formal dueling club, pretty much every wizard fight seen involves lots of movement, so shooting a wizard would be no easier than shooting a muggle soldier.

lolz. Machine guns are easy to hit people with...they literally spray bullets. Let some wizard hop left n right while I empty a bananna clip from a AK47.
Point and shoot. Your life or mine...most humans will pull the trigger.

Hope wizards are better at being wary of predators and running away at long range than deer are. Because deer are are no match whatsoever for an hunter with a steady aim.

Gnoman

2012-05-31, 04:39 PM

lolz. Machine guns are easy to hit people with...they literally spray bullets. Let some wizard hop left n right while I empty a bananna clip from a AK47.
Point and shoot. Your life or mine...most humans will pull the trigger.

Hope wizards are better at being wary of predators and running away at long range than deer are. Because deer are are no match whatsoever for an hunter with a steady aim.

You may be able to rapid fire from an AK. Most civilians or cops can't. Handheld machine guns are extremely difficult for even trained troops to use, which is why the BAR and M14 were removed from service. As for crew-served-weapons, which are more feasible, they aren't all that portable, and take time to get into position.

Note that I never said soldiers would have problems. It was the idea that "any muggle can pick up a gun" that I have objections to.

Murska

2012-05-31, 05:02 PM

Basically if the wizards are smart, they easily win. If they're stupid, they lose. And Voldemort is likely to be stupid.

Fjolnir

2012-05-31, 05:08 PM

basically once wizards figure out what a transformer station is, and how crucial they are to preventing mass civil unrest, muggles have a shot. Because once major cities start getting blacked out during the summer or the winter and riots begin there would be ample opportunity for wizards to take control...

Xondoure

2012-05-31, 05:15 PM

Why do people think Voldemort will be stupid? Yes wizards are ignorant but they've managed to keep the masquerade up for centuries. In fact, they already have direct access through the ministry to muggle centers for power. You don't become the uncontested most dangerous person in the wizarding world without being clever about it.

pendell

2012-05-31, 05:17 PM

Yeah. Let's start by imagining just how dangerous terrorists are in the real world. They're nearly impossible to track down, a single one in the right place can cause untold devastation, and they have no direct power base to strike against.

Now make them unplottable teleporting mind controllers. It isn't a fight.

Terrorism is actually pretty poor at creating military results. Terrorism allows you to frighten people, to force people to take you seriously, to make demands which a society may meet, and it allows you to make life miserable for everyone in the target society as everyone now has to file travel papers, submit to scans, can't carry liquids on flights, etc.

But you can't, by terrorism, force an army to abandon an objective and you can't expect people to simply lay down and die because you've frightened them.

Terrorism, in short , is a political weapon, not a military weapon.

The most likely result of a campaign of magical terrorism would be to get the attention of the world's governments and put their dealing with you at the very top of their lists. The thing about fright is that it most often makes people angry, willing to do all kinds of things they normally wouldn't do.

I suggest infiltration and subversion offer the best chance of success, for the wizards. That or teleport off the planet , drop asteroids on it until everyone is dead by telekinesis, then return and take up residence.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

CapnRedBeard

2012-05-31, 05:23 PM

You may be able to rapid fire from an AK. Most civilians or cops can't. Handheld machine guns are extremely difficult for even trained troops to use, which is why the BAR and M14 were removed from service. As for crew-served-weapons, which are more feasible, they aren't all that portable, and take time to get into position.

Note that I never said soldiers would have problems. It was the idea that "any muggle can pick up a gun" that I have objections to.

There are over 150 million REGISTERED guns in America. I'd bet that there are three times as many that are unregistered. Believe that the millions upon millions upon millions of Americans with guns...have many guns...and are very well versed in their use. If you can hit a deer heart at 200 yards? You can hit a human.

Have you never shot a gun? They are very simple. Training could be done in about 20 minutes if in a emergency. 18 minutes of which would be basic safety. You have to learn how to put bullets in. You have to learn where the safety is. Only point at what you intend to kill. Then you can learn how to clean a gun I suppose.

CapnRedBeard

2012-05-31, 05:27 PM

Terrorism is actually pretty poor at creating military results. Terrorism allows you to frighten people, to force people to take you seriously, to make demands which a society may meet, and it allows you to make life miserable for everyone in the target society as everyone now has to file travel papers, submit to scans, can't carry liquids on flights, etc.

But you can't, by terrorism, force an army to abandon an objective and you can't expect people to simply lay down and die because you've frightened them.

Terrorism, in short , is a political weapon, not a military weapon.

The most likely result of a campaign of magical terrorism would be to get the attention of the world's governments and put their dealing with you at the very top of their lists. The thing about fright is that it most often makes people angry, willing to do all kinds of things they normally wouldn't do.

I suggest infiltration and subversion offer the best chance of success, for the wizards. That or teleport off the planet , drop asteroids on it until everyone is dead by telekinesis, then return and take up residence.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Now that last idea has merit. The best way to deal with humanity is from space. We cannot get there easily. IF wizards can fly to the asteroid belt at faster than light speeds...and return at faster than light speeds with asteroids in tow...they could absolutely ruin the entire planet...for every species.

Gnoman

2012-05-31, 05:41 PM

There are over 150 million REGISTERED guns in America. I'd bet that there are three times as many that are unregistered. Believe that the millions upon millions upon millions of Americans with guns...have many guns...and are very well versed in their use. If you can hit a deer heart at 200 yards? You can hit a human.

Have you never shot a gun? They are very simple. Training could be done in about 20 minutes if in a emergency. 18 minutes of which would be basic safety. You have to learn how to put bullets in. You have to learn where the safety is. Only point at what you intend to kill. Then you can learn how to clean a gun I suppose.

I've fired thousands of rounds. It takes longer than 20 minutes just to get tha hang of holding a gun, let alone aiming. Deer are far easier to hit than people are, since people dodge, while deer simply run in a straight line. Professional, Olympic-class marksmen have trouble hitting an evasive target, let alone one that shoots back.

Xondoure

2012-05-31, 05:44 PM

Terrorism is actually pretty poor at creating military results. Terrorism allows you to frighten people, to force people to take you seriously, to make demands which a society may meet, and it allows you to make life miserable for everyone in the target society as everyone now has to file travel papers, submit to scans, can't carry liquids on flights, etc.

But you can't, by terrorism, force an army to abandon an objective and you can't expect people to simply lay down and die because you've frightened them.

Terrorism, in short , is a political weapon, not a military weapon.

The most likely result of a campaign of magical terrorism would be to get the attention of the world's governments and put their dealing with you at the very top of their lists. The thing about fright is that it most often makes people angry, willing to do all kinds of things they normally wouldn't do.

I suggest infiltration and subversion offer the best chance of success, for the wizards. That or teleport off the planet , drop asteroids on it until everyone is dead by telekinesis, then return and take up residence.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It's a political battle, not a military one. The wizards never have to face us directly.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-31, 06:33 PM

It's a political battle, not a military one. The wizards never have to face us directly.

That's part of the problem. Wizards can't win those either. If the ministry is any indication Wizarding politics are miserable.

The Death Eaters and Pro-pureblood magicians are not going to settle for anything less than total political and military dominion with the Muggle's crushed under their heel.

Not going to happen through terrorist tactics.

I've fired thousands of rounds. It takes longer than 20 minutes just to get tha hang of holding a gun, let alone aiming. Deer are far easier to hit than people are, since people dodge, while deer simply run in a straight line. Professional, Olympic-class marksmen have trouble hitting an evasive target, let alone one that shoots back.

I can't claim to have fired thousands of rounds, but it it only took me a few minutes to learn how to fire a hand gun and hit a target from I think, 40ft?

Most wizards can't manage a decent shield charm, let alone the kind of curses necessary to kill their enemies. Meanwhile, you can hand any person a gun, and they're capable of mass murder at 30 paces.

Eldan

2012-05-31, 06:34 PM

Gnoman

2012-05-31, 06:59 PM

That's part of the problem. Wizards can't win those either. If the ministry is any indication Wizarding politics are miserable.

The Death Eaters and Pro-pureblood magicians are not going to settle for anything less than total political and military dominion with the Muggle's crushed under their heel.

Not going to happen through terrorist tactics.

I can't claim to have fired thousands of rounds, but it it only took me a few minutes to learn how to fire a hand gun and hit a target from I think, 40ft?

Most wizards can't manage a decent shield charm, let alone the kind of curses necessary to kill their enemies. Meanwhile, you can hand any person a gun, and they're capable of mass murder at 30 paces.

Once again, A moving, evasive target is exponentially more difficult to hit than a stationary one. There's a reason the military spends a fortune on marksmanship training.

Second, lethal magic is not necessary to win in a fight. The spell Hermione used on Neville in the first book would be more than adequate for most purposes. I find it unlikely that any wizard could complete school without knowing at least that.

Murska

2012-05-31, 07:04 PM

Don't most spells have to hit to effect, as well? And they're slow enough to be dodged, unlike bullets.

Xondoure

2012-05-31, 07:49 PM

Soras Teva Gee

2012-05-31, 08:29 PM

If this becomes an all out war the wizards have already lost. That is until someone invents a bullet repelling charm. :smalltongue:

But wars aren't really fought that way when you have the toolset wizards do. And I still don't see how the muggle world will be anywhere near prepared for the full scale removal of their support grid and corruption of power that wizards are capable of.

Which requires the one thing wizards are certifiably don't have, detailed and accurate knowledge of the Muggle world. And with a fanatic like Voldermort calling the shots, they won't get it. He'll put an idiot like Draco in charge of torturing info out of the Weasley's.

Xondoure

2012-05-31, 08:37 PM

Which requires the one thing wizards are certifiably don't have, detailed and accurate knowledge of the Muggle world. And with a fanatic like Voldermort calling the shots, they won't get it. He'll put an idiot like Draco in charge of torturing info out of the Weasley's.

Voldemort was raised as a muggle, and despite his disdain for them I don't see why anyone assumes he wouldn't try and get accurate information on his new enemies. Really folks: Riddle's a smart guy who got caught on the hook of a self fulfilling prophecy.

The Glyphstone

2012-05-31, 09:02 PM

So, I guess it comes down to the same thing again.

How smart are the wizards? If they are as silly as portrayed in the books, they lose, and hard. If they are smart, tech-savvy and actually study our society, they create a bloodbath.

That's what a lot of people appear to be forgetting, as tends to happen in Versus matches. If we don't take into account the combatants' temperaments, attitudes, and personalities, then we're not actually considering a versus match between then, we're using two faceless drones who happen to have those combatant's power sets. Wizards, particularly if they had the collective creativity and intellect of the Playground, would run rampant and win near-effortlessly. The Death Eaters and Voldemort, as portrayed in their own canon, would have a much more difficult time.

ChaosLord29

2012-05-31, 09:11 PM

That's what a lot of people appear to be forgetting, as tends to happen in Versus matches. If we don't take into account the combatants' temperaments, attitudes, and personalities, then we're not actually considering a versus match between then, we're using two faceless drones who happen to have those combatant's power sets. Wizards, particularly if they had the collective creativity and intellect of the Playground, would run rampant and win near-effortlessly. The Death Eaters and Voldemort, as portrayed in their own canon, would have a much more difficult time.

Well said.

pendell

2012-05-31, 09:15 PM

If this becomes an all out war the wizards have already lost. That is until someone invents a bullet repelling charm. :smalltongue:

But wars aren't really fought that way when you have the toolset wizards do. And I still don't see how the muggle world will be anywhere near prepared for the full scale removal of their support grid and corruption of power that wizards are capable of.

My understanding is that shell fragments hurt a lot more people than bullets do. They would need something more like a minor globe of invulnerability, or perhaps a Dune-style personal shield.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Chess435

2012-05-31, 09:16 PM

Wizards, particularly if they had the collective creativity and intellect of the Playground, would run rampant and win near-effortlessly.

You might be on to something there. Okay guys, if any of you ever discover magic, teach it to all of us so we can take over the world. :smallwink:

Fjolnir

2012-05-31, 10:08 PM

Voldemort does resort to terrorism, that was essentially what mass muggle killings were...

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-01, 01:12 AM

You may be able to rapid fire from an AK. Most civilians or cops can't. Handheld machine guns are extremely difficult for even trained troops to use, which is why the BAR and M14 were removed from service.

Now, as far as I understand it, it is only hard if you care for precision. An AK47 is just "point and spray" if you don't care about A) wasting ammunition and B) isn't all too careful about what or whom you might hit in the process.

This whole thing is basically just another Bodysnatcher - Alien Invasion scenario, and just like Zombie apocalypses I am sure the Pentagon has already planned for these. Just because they can.

You might be on to something there. Okay guys, if any of you ever discover magic, teach it to all of us so we can take over the world. :smallwink:

Heh. As someone who has played "let's outsmart the DM" a lot, this is familiar. Using conventional (for the setting) methods for unconventional means.

Tyndmyr

2012-06-01, 06:31 AM

It first came up as a point on another vs thread I've been running, (Voldemort vs Vader) as a question of how many of Vader's 501st Storm Troopers would it take to put down the Death Eaters, assuming each side was allowed access to it's respective allies.

I dismissed it since the rules of the thread clearly state this was a 1v1 match, but it got me thinking: "Wizards against Storm Troopers? Don't make me laugh, they're outnumbered 10 to 1 and the their opponents have automatic weapons. I mean, the wizarding world could hardly take on mundane forces of Earth, let alone Star Wars."

I didn't bring it up in the thread because I didn't want to start a new argument, but that is now what this thread is for.

The Setup:

Assume Voldemort was victorious at the battle of Hogwarts. He and the Death Eaters are now firmly in control of wizarding in Britain, and subsequently manage to conquer the rest of Europe (Wizarding wise that is). The Death Eaters now feel its time they turned their attention to the Muggle world, and without the ministry enforcing secrecy regulations, attacks on Muggles have increased ten fold.

How is Voldemort likely to begin his conquest of the Muggle World?

Probably using the exact same tactics he used on both of his previous attempts at a rise to power. Intimidation, fear, kill those who oppose him. He's not one for subtlety or for playing the part of the hero.

How long before Muggle Governments begin to catch on?

Frankly, I'm shocked they hadn't already.

If it looks like things are headed towards a full scale showdown between Muggles and Wizards, who is likely to win?

Muggles. This is not even a question. Sniper rifle trumps Avada Kedavra every time. Unless you're buffed and ready for attack, you get instantly blown away from an attack from an unknown location a quarter of a mile away. Can't be shielded constantly.

And the wizarding world is amazingly unaware of their opponents abilities.

2) No talk of nuclear weapons. It's just silly, if I wanted a Wizards vs Nukes thread I would have started one. No, it's more interesting to consider how Muggle Governments would go about hunting down these infiltrators and combat them on muggle terms, and nuking civlian population centers to try and kill a minority of the population is just ridiculous.

Well, for all the talk of purebloods and junk...magic quite obviously is genetic. You have the ability to do it or not. IE, it's an easy test once you capture one. Even a child.

So, this really isn't much different than a nuke.

CapnRedBeard

2012-06-01, 08:06 AM

Now, as far as I understand it, it is only hard if you care for precision. An AK47 is just "point and spray" if you don't care about A) wasting ammunition and B) isn't all too careful about what or whom you might hit in the process.

This whole thing is basically just another Bodysnatcher - Alien Invasion scenario, and just like Zombie apocalypses I am sure the Pentagon has already planned for these. Just because they can.

Heh. As someone who has played "let's outsmart the DM" a lot, this is familiar. Using conventional (for the setting) methods for unconventional means.

Exactly it's like telling people that they cannot possibly be accurate with a water pistol. I mean unless you are trained how can you possibly hope to hit something with a water pistol? WHAT? You move a finger as you point the away end at your target. That's the learning curve. Muggle tech...is easy and incredibly reliable.

How difficult is the internet for you? If you farted today in Japan and wished to tell me about it...how long would it take? If you wanted to send me a video of the fart...how long would that take?

pendell

2012-06-01, 08:08 AM

Well, for all the talk of purebloods and junk...magic quite obviously is genetic. You have the ability to do it or not. IE, it's an easy test once you capture one. Even a child.

Here's a nasty thought -- if it's genetic, how hard would it be to breed the ability into the entire human population? Make everyone a wizard?

It gets more fun if we start dealing with retroviruses or what not that could alter those genetic markers. Give Voldemort a shot and suddenly he's a muggle. Fate worse than death?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tyndmyr

2012-06-01, 08:13 AM

Here's a nasty thought -- if it's genetic, how hard would it be to breed the ability into the entire human population? Make everyone a wizard?

It gets more fun if we start dealing with retroviruses or what not that could alter those genetic markers. Give Voldemort a shot and suddenly he's a muggle. Fate worse than death?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, we're looking at complete gene sequencing being commercially available for under $1000 soon(at which point, I, and several friends, all intend to take advantage of it). If magic was in fact in the DNA, then yeah, we could retrovirus it in.

I like this alternate future.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-01, 08:45 AM

Well, we're looking at complete gene sequencing being commercially available for under $1000 soon(at which point, I, and several friends, all intend to take advantage of it). If magic was in fact in the DNA, then yeah, we could retrovirus it in.

I like this alternate future.

Of course, we are talking about 1990s technology, so it'd be a looong way off in that instance...

Random Fun (sic) Fact: I'd have been in Harry's year at school if I had the right sort of magic... (Probably as well for Wizarding Britian and the world as a whole I wasn't, though...)

Tyndmyr

2012-06-01, 08:49 AM

Of course, we are talking about 1990s technology, so it'd be a looong way off in that instance...

Random Fun (sic) Fact: I'd have been in Harry's year at school if I had the right sort of magic... (Probably as well for Wizarding Britian and the world as a whole I wasn't, though...)

Well, the tech wasn't so far off, it was just really expensive. We had sequencing ability then, and if something this big was around to use it on...it would gain a lot of attention.

Fragenstein

2012-06-01, 08:53 AM

Random Fun (sic) Fact: I'd have been in Harry's year at school if I had the right sort of magic... (Probably as well for Wizarding Britian and the world as a whole I wasn't, though...)

Fun(er) Fact: I've always felt that Slytherin probably threw the best parties. They seem most likely to brew their own intoxicants and sneak in hookers. Sort of the underage Delta House of Hogwarts.

Forum Explorer

2012-06-01, 12:44 PM

You may be able to rapid fire from an AK. Most civilians or cops can't. Handheld machine guns are extremely difficult for even trained troops to use, which is why the BAR and M14 were removed from service. As for crew-served-weapons, which are more feasible, they aren't all that portable, and take time to get into position.

Note that I never said soldiers would have problems. It was the idea that "any muggle can pick up a gun" that I have objections to.

I think it's more that a child can pick up a gun and shoot someone. As in the possibility exists that they can pull it off. Or you can train a child to take the shot and they can. The wizard's don't have that advantage as they need to want to kill someone to pull off the killing curse not just accept it.

Fun(er) Fact: I've always felt that Slytherin probably threw the best parties. They seem most likely to brew their own intoxicants and sneak in hookers. Sort of the underage Delta House of Hogwarts.

Nice. But I think it goes to Hufflepuffs. They seem like the sort to work hard and party all night. Like Oil riggers home from work.

Fragenstein

2012-06-01, 01:11 PM

Nice. But I think it goes to Hufflepuffs. They seem like the sort to work hard and party all night. Like Oil riggers home from work.

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines as well. But their motto is "Those patient Hufflepuffs are true and unafraid of toil." They value hard work, patience, justice and loyalty.

So... goody-goody.

Get that tool Malfoy out of a leadership position and I'm sure Dean Wormer Snape is going to have to stay on his toes to keep them in line.

ChaosLord29

2012-06-01, 02:14 PM

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines as well. But their motto is "Those patient Hufflepuffs are true and unafraid of toil." They value hard work, patience, justice and loyalty.

So... goody-goody.

Get that tool Malfoy out of a leadership position and I'm sure Dean Wormer Snape is going to have to stay on his toes to keep them in line.

I'm with Fragenstein on this one. I was Slytherin Prefect of my University's Harry Potter Fanclub. Our event nights were always the best.

I think it breaks down like so

Slytherins: Movers and shakers at the party; network to get invites out to all the cool people and ensure that booze is provided to all underage/shy individuals.

Gryffindors: Keg stands, stage dives, wild and crazy stunts; Courage is the kindest word for Stupidity don't you think?

Hufflepuffs: Filler; The bodies who stand around drinking and chatting, or dance somewhat awkwardly, meanwhile making everyone else feel like they're being admired. The party would not be complete without them.

Ravenclaws: "I had to study . . . What drinks had the highest alcohol content! Let's get wasted!" The true wild-things; a minority to be sure, but get them out of their shell and they'll make everyone else feel sober in comparison.

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-01, 02:38 PM

Ravenclaws: "I had to study . . . What drinks had the highest alcohol content! Let's get wasted!" The true wild-things; a minority to be sure, but get them out of their shell and they'll make everyone else feel sober in comparison.

Heh, for some reason I think of that line from TBBT: "There comes a time when a girl is tired of waking up on a strange futon with a bunch of guys she doesn't know" :smallbiggrin:

Gnoman

2012-06-01, 04:20 PM

Now, as far as I understand it, it is only hard if you care for precision. An AK47 is just "point and spray" if you don't care about A) wasting ammunition and B) isn't all too careful about what or whom you might hit in the process.

That's a HUGE skill in and of itself, and one which very few children will have the upper-body strength to pull off. A full-grown man, with practice, can keep an AK or M-16 from becoming an anti-aricraft weapon after the first round or two, but it takes a very real degree of strength to do so. A pistol's even worse.

Agrippa

2012-06-01, 04:22 PM

From what I've gathered online Ravenclaw is the chief candidate for the title of party house. Even the Gryfindors are more sedate than them.

Aotrs Commander

2012-06-01, 06:08 PM

That's a HUGE skill in and of itself, and one which very few children will have the upper-body strength to pull off. A full-grown man, with practice, can keep an AK or M-16 from becoming an anti-aricraft weapon after the first round or two, but it takes a very real degree of strength to do so. A pistol's even worse.

The sheer number of irregular and guerilla forces (some of them waaay too young) armed with AKs would seem to argue against that. Now, I'll grant you, such irregular troops are not up to the standard of professional soldiers trained in modern combat, head for head, but then again, neither are Wizards (seeing as how they have less knowledge of muggles than three-years olds and have to be told what "guns" are.) Wizards don't seem to do "cover" much either, but that's more a failing of sci-fi/fantasy in general (see: Star Wars especially the Clone Wars...)

pendell

2012-06-02, 05:59 AM

The sheer number of irregular and guerilla forces (some of them waaay too young) armed with AKs would seem to argue against that. Now, I'll grant you, such irregular troops are not up to the standard of professional soldiers trained in modern combat, head for head, but then again, neither are Wizards (seeing as how they have less knowledge of muggles than three-years olds and have to be told what "guns" are.) Wizards don't seem to do "cover" much either, but that's more a failing of sci-fi/fantasy in general (see: Star Wars especially the Clone Wars...)

Cynicism suggests that child soldiers are more useful as a distraction or as a decoy than as a fighting soldier. Child soldiers are probably all very well if you just need some bodies to look intimidating or when you need some young and stupid people to clear a minefield by running through it (happened during the Iran-Iraq war), but if you want to do house-to-house clearing, you need grown adults.

The Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/human-rights/child-soldiers-around-world/p9331#p4) answers the question this way:

Are Child Soldiers effective?

Yes. Trusting, vulnerable, and often intimidated, children can easily be manipulated, experts say. In combat, children can be daring and tenacious, particularly when under the influence of drugs—a common practice—or when compelled by political or religious zeal. Child units can greatly add to confusion on battlefields, slowing opposing forces' progress. Children have also been used as scouts, messengers, minesweepers, bomb-makers, and suicide bombers. Child units are also effectively used as advance troops in ambush attacks.

"Greatly slowing an opponent's progress" in essence means to provide the enemy with a lot of targets to kill before they advance, essentially a speed bump made with human bodies. Same with "advance troops" -- that's providing a wall of bodies to shield the real soldiers. The other tasks are all minor tasks that don't require the ability to kick down a door and physically fight. But if you really want to fight and win, you still need grown adults.

I frankly find the subject distasteful. Regardless of how old a wizard has to be to be effective, they are still a vanishingly small minority of humans, and a smaller minority will be able to use a killing curse, and an even smaller minority will actually be effective soldiers with them. As Vaarsuvius would say, "being proficient with a bow is not the same thing as being good with it".

By contrast, you can make a mediocre soldier out of any average 17-year-old with a few weeks training, and some of them will be excellent. So I think Muggles have an advantage in that they have a much larger recruitment pool. Muggle militia may not be at the level of wizards, but they can still be pretty lethal and they can be trained fairly quickly.

But I think it's beside the point. I'm trying to remember the quote, but ISTR something along the lines of it's pretty close to an even chance if an armed muggle takes on a wizard. But if a wizard is fighting a muggle head-to-head, the wizard's already doing something wrong. A wizard war would probably be an intelligence war, one in which massive armies and nuclear weapons et al would be out of place.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gnoman

2012-06-02, 10:29 AM

Forum Explorer

2012-06-02, 02:14 PM

I think everyone is missing the point here. What we are getting at is that a child solider is a very real possibility for a muggle. In comparison most wizards are stuck with relatively non-lethal spells as you have to have a lot of hate and desire to cause pain to use the nastier curses. So when it comes to fighting technology has the advantage as pretty much anyone can use it while the opposing side is limited in the extreme. (Likely why Voldemort was such a threat in the first place. It's much easier to take over when you have nearly everyone who can actually fight.)

Nekura

2012-06-02, 03:08 PM

As wonderfull as the world of Harry Potter is this question becomes to hard due to plot holes and bad writing especially in the latter books. Wizards have the power to subtly take over but not the knowledge they are simply to ignorant of the muggles. Yes riddle grew up muggle but that was in a poor orphanage that wouldn't have much technology and was years ago. While the death eaters used infiltration tatics on other wizards thats not what they did with muggles. They had giants destroy a town and blew up a large heavily populated bridge. The only reason they weren't exposed to the muggles then was the ministry was still working to keep the secret. Even then and correct me if I am wrong but didn't they use a horrible cover story? I seem to remember they blamed the town on a hurricain which is just plain stupid. You would have to mind wipe the world, if parts of england report a hurricain destroyed a town weather centers across the globe that detected no such storm would be wondering whats going on.

Bullets vs. wizards is no contest. Even if there is a shield that could potentially stop a single bullet or banishing spell that could send it away it all comes down to speed. Spells take a lot of concentration, time for wand movements, and for most people and spells incantation. And whats all this talk about dodging bullets? People can't dodge bullets and nowhere is it said or hinted at that wizards would be able to. As to the accuarcy of guns or M-16s that
Originally Posted by Gnoman
That's a HUGE skill in and of itself, and one which very few children will have the upper-body strength to pull off. A full-grown man, with practice, can keep an AK or M-16 from becoming an anti-aricraft weapon after the first round or two, but it takes a very real degree of strength to do so. A pistol's even worse. well have you ever fired a gun? I have, I don't know about the AK but the M-16 does not require a great deal of strength or much practice at all to avoid having its small amount of recoil causing the gun to jerk up and "beome an anti-aircraft weapon". It doesn't take much practice to become fairly accurate with either as apposed to cannon evidence where grown adults who have been casting spells for years are not very accurate even in close combat and spells are able to be dodged when they would actually hit unlike bullets.

The only real threat and tactics Voldemort actually used against muggles would be the dementors and to a lesser degree giants. Again how did the giants go unnoticed? can you portkey or sidealong apperate a giant? Basilisks are too rare and wizards can't control dragons well enough to be much help.

While in hinden areas they are somewhat safe wizards stick out too much in the real world. And while guns are heavily restricted in england the rest of the world is much different. Then you also have to take into account the OP siad Voldemort only conqured wizarding england so wizards in other parts of the world also have to be looked at which again while we have fanfics that like to play around with that idea we don't have enough facts from cannon.

Forum Explorer

2012-06-02, 05:13 PM

I think dodging bullets is referring to just moving erratically to make yourself a harder target and taking cover in a firefight. Which does make a big difference.

Xondoure

2012-06-02, 05:38 PM

Tvtyrant

2012-06-02, 05:51 PM

Xondoure

2012-06-02, 09:25 PM

By what exactly do you mean by "Strike tactically?"

By strike tactically, I mean mind controlling the heads of state, sabotaging power grids, and other fun surprises.

Wizards don't need every kid with magic talent to start fighting. All they need is one guy who can take down our electrical system, and cripple our oil lines. And they will think of this before they think of lining everyone up to shoot each other civil war style. Voldemort didn't take over the ministry by declaring himself king of the wizarding world. He let them think he wasn't even around while he infiltrated every level of government. And that's the same thing he did last time he came to power. Why would this possibly change against muggles when it will work even better there because they don't even know magic exists? And don't give me a few good wizards spill the beans. If it was that easy to unveil the masquerade it would have happened a long time ago. Say what you will about the ministry, that leg of law enforcement knows how to handle things.

Nekura

2012-06-03, 12:21 AM

By strike tactically, I mean mind controlling the heads of state, sabotaging power grids, and other fun surprises.

Wizards don't need every kid with magic talent to start fighting. All they need is one guy who can take down our electrical system, and cripple our oil lines. And they will think of this before they think of lining everyone up to shoot each other civil war style. Voldemort didn't take over the ministry by declaring himself king of the wizarding world. He let them think he wasn't even around while he infiltrated every level of government. And that's the same thing he did last time he came to power. Why would this possibly change against muggles when it will work even better there because they don't even know magic exists? And don't give me a few good wizards spill the beans. If it was that easy to unveil the masquerade it would have happened a long time ago. Say what you will about the ministry, that leg of law enforcement knows how to handle things.

That's all well and good but they don't know about power grids. Mr. Weasley has a job working with muggle items that have been enchanted in such a way to give away the secret of magic and spends all his free time trying and failing to understand muggles. Voldemort didn't care about the masquerade. He had giants smash towns and he blew up bridges. When taking into account how clueless wizards are the story falls apart as there is no way for them to have remained secret so long and there is no way muggles would have let them treat them like they do. As for infiltrating every level of the ministry that just shows how stupid the whole thing was. Pure blood bigots held a lot of power in the ministry he could have legally taken over easily without going to war. A few deaths here, a few accidents there, maybe a few bribed votes and he's won. But no he and his death eaters went around slaughtering muggles letting the ministry know something is up. Then went to random wizards to "recruit" them and killed them if they resisted. He could have put Malfoy or someone up as a puppet Minister before the death eaters became known. Just look at the power Fudge had tossing people into Azkaban with no trial and no cause. Taking over Hogwarts stripping Dumbledore of his positions, appointing anyone he felt like to any made up position of authority. Yes wizards with those powers and intelligence who are not let by someone as insane as Voldemort would have a much easier time taking over.

Xondoure

2012-06-03, 02:20 AM

The Glyphstone

2012-06-03, 06:15 AM

Johel

2012-06-03, 06:40 AM

Except that's clearly not true. If the purebloods had the power to seize control of the government they would have done it with or without voldemort.

Well... to be perfectly honest, Lucius and the other pureblood HAD a merry good time when Voldy wasn't around.
After all, they hailed from wealthy and influent families.
Enough to just get away with a "I was mind-controlled" after the first war.
And to then still occupy position of power while flaunting around a rethoric that was pretty close to what Voldy was advocating.

Sure, they didn't had the power to do all they wanted in plain sight.
But they still had a great deal of impunity and the ressources to abuse it.
And all of this without having to risk their skins in duels or battles.
The only true obstacles were a few individuals like Dumbeldore but even him could not oppose them systematically.

In comparison, the Voldemort Method involves going to risking your life on a daily basis just to maintain your political power.
And making mad gambits to increase it a little bit.
It was litterally ruling at the point of a wand, with 3/4 of the wizards hostile to his rule and half of the rest only following out of fear.
At best, they obeyed him without enthousiasm or initiative.
At worst, they secretly plotted againt him.

-----------------------------------------

So, assuming Voldy is Voldy, yeah, Muggles win.
There's just too many of us, not enough of wizards.

Take this as an exemple :
If 10.000 humans die for every wizard killed in battle... it would still not be enough for the wizards.
After having lost 200 of their own, the wizards would decide that it might be easier to just rebel against Voldy.
Meanwhile, 2 millions humans died... and the death rate barely moved.

Selrahc

2012-06-03, 08:51 AM

After having lost 200 of their own, the wizards would decide that it might be easier to just rebel against Voldy.
Meanwhile, 2 millions humans died... and the death rate barely moved.

2 million deaths is higher than the combined casualties suffered by Britain, America and France during WW2. Don't say it's insignificant.

Murska

2012-06-03, 09:05 AM

2 million deaths is higher than the combined casualties suffered by Britain, America and France during WW2. Don't say it's insignificant.

Well, it's insignificant in that it wouldn't really affect the capacity of the human species to wage war in any meaningful way.

Johel

2012-06-03, 10:01 AM

2 million deaths is higher than the combined casualties suffered by Britain, America and France during WW2. Don't say it's insignificant.

See the answer of Murska.

Humanity is 6 billions people
Crude birth rate : 19,5 / 1000 = 117.000.000 births per year
Crude death rate : 8,2 / 1000 = 49.200.000 deaths per year
Growth rate : 11,3 / 1000

Having 2 millions people die per year will barely affect our growth rate.
Sure, I agree it is tragic and all..
But if we are fighting to avoid being enslaved or exterminated, I bet you can easily spare those 2 millions to trick wizards into ambushes.

With 200 dead wizards who actively tried to kill humans, you got the equivalent of a full promotion of Hogwarts being butchered.

Now put that into perspective :

Let's assume the majority of Voldy's supporters are :
Slytherins in England (1/4 of 6.000)
Other, less numerous wizards outside England (1/10 of 6.000)
That's roughly 2.100 Wizards who are trully loyal to Voldy for various reasons.
That's it, they might not like the Dark Lord but at least they like his propaganda about killing the mudbloods or enslaving the muggles.

This is around 1.400 adults.
Accordingly, most of the wizards who will happily kill muggles are going to be from these people.
And so they are going to suffer most of the casualties when humans get lucky and wizards get cocky.

The most hard-core, pro-pure blood, anti-muggles wizards get killed like flyes, losing 1/7 of their adults in the first YEAR of open warfare.
While the less enthousiastic supporters of Voldy and his silent opponents survive.
Muggles, while suffering as a society, are still thriving as a species.
To the point where they are waging a defensive war, waiting to be slaugthered until, out of a dozen attacks, one or two wizards get killed.
The newly graduated wizards would be walking in the shoes of the deceased, litterally.
And after 7 years of unsuccessful war, Voldy would have to rely on a crew of children to maintain his autority and wage his war.
At that point, it is very possible that 20 or so Wizards will just think "screw this, let's gang on the bastard."

Selrahc

2012-06-03, 11:15 AM

Well, it's insignificant in that it wouldn't really affect the capacity of the human species to wage war in any meaningful way.

Well, again. It's enough to utterly annihilate the current day armed forces of Britain, France and the United States to a man.

It's not going to eliminate humanity, but it is going to cause a heavy dent militarily. Enough to say... win a war.

Murska

2012-06-03, 11:19 AM

If we say that the 2 million casualties are spread perfectly randomly to the entire population of planet Earth, it's unlikely that any one armed force is affected enough to be utterly destroyed. Unless someone like Liechtenstein gets really unlucky.

Selrahc

2012-06-03, 11:26 AM

Xondoure

2012-06-03, 01:52 PM

Yeah see I'm still not seeing your argument. If wizards get into a situation where their life is at risk they're doing it wrong. And you made an excellent point about nuclear launch codes. Muggles can't afford to use them, who says wizards won't? Now that alone would rack up way more than 2 million deaths. But this isn't really about deaths. It's about rule. Wizards have all the tools they need to strike against muggles. Muggles aren't even able to locate them on a map.

Nekura

2012-06-03, 03:29 PM

Except that's clearly not true. If the purebloods had the power to seize control of the government they would have done it with or without voldemort. By the seventh book there's a puppet ministry and the war is basically over. All that was left was hunting down what remained of the order of the phoenix. Voldemort is efficient. His complete takeover of the wizarding world took three years. So no, the average wizard knows nothing about muggles. But you can be sure as hell the high level ministry people do. (Arthur wasn't high level. His job wasn't even that related to the masquerade. It was basically messing with a few practical jokes people like his sons would cause.)

I'm talking about the same ministry officials who spun a giant attack into a hurricane, and made people believe it. To make it clear how easy it is all they have to do is imperious the prime minister or the president and have them explain exactly what would need to be done to cripple the non magical world and allow it to be taken over.

As I had already said before England reporting a hurricane that destroyed a town and people across the globe knowing without a doubt there was no storm does not work. Even the people in the town would know it didn't happen what with everything dry and no water damage. The secret only worked because JKR said it did all the while all details from cannon paint a picture that it could not possible work. As entertaining as the books were there were to many inconsistencies. I agreed that wizards could be devastating with their powers and the right tactics but that there were too many examples of them not bothering to use them like that against muggles. You are too fixated on the opposite side of the inconsistencies. Did the death eaters quickly take over the ministry and make a puppet government in the second war? Yes. But that was more Malfoy's doing having Fudge basically in his pocket from the start. Add to that it wasn't from infiltrating and using magic to control him it was being pureblood and using political power to take over the government. It wasn't Voldemort's plan but even though he is insane he was smart enough to take it when Malfoy had practically gift raped the ministry for him. However Voldemort is ultimately in charge and we have seen his plans for muggles are not subtle.

Murska

2012-06-03, 03:53 PM

But why would it be spread perfectly randomly around the Earth?

Why would it be targeted solely amongst the militaries of the US, Britain and France? The original message was talking about wizards managing to kill that many through their terror tactics, which include siccing giants on towns and such. Points pretty squarely to killing civilians to me, even though they'd probably mainly be in Britain.

If the wizards are dumb enough to let ordinary people realize there's a war going on, it's going to be almost impossible for them to win simply because they'd have to control so ridiculously many people to do so. Even a small underground resistance movement would outnumber all wizards on the continent. Every loss the wizards take is one they cannot afford.

On the other hand, nobody believes in magic at the moment. It would be easy for wizards to take over the world de facto by infiltrating and mind-controlling their way through every important organization on the planet. If they're smart enough to do so.

EDIT: @^
What you're saying about the implausibility of the hurricane explanation should just underline the sheer power the wizards can bring to bear in manipulation, mind control and subversion, right? :smalltongue:

Xondoure

2012-06-03, 10:34 PM

Ravens_cry

2012-06-03, 10:43 PM

Eh, I think just both sides work on it. That makes slightly more sense then.
In fact, given how ignorant wizards are of the Muggle world, it's probably mostly the mundanes who make it work.
Look at Mr. Weasely. The guy should be fired for how ignorant he is, but instead he seems as competent as anyone else is, and the man is pretty extracurricular about his interest in Muggles.
Also, Voldemort is not efficient. Oh, he brings the Death Eaters together, he is a fine demagogue, but he drinks the kool-aid, arrogant to the core.
He basically can not conceive of a Mudblood stopping his plans, let alone a Muggle.
That is why he would fail.
Since he can not conceive failure, he can not plan for failure.

Xondoure

2012-06-03, 11:33 PM

Under the lack of a nose and red snake eyes lies the same school boy that was capable of charming the entire world into thinking of him as a saint while he set a basilisk loose on the school's residents. Within his own world he's a master of deception. Yes he's arrogant. But that doesn't automatically make him stupid. Unless you can point to a scenario in which his arrogance will endanger his cause beyond "he reveals the wizarding world and makes it so muggles can locate wizards because he doesn't think he can do anything about it" I don't see how his arrogance is relevant. Because he really wouldn't ever do the above.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-03, 11:35 PM

The man can't kill a child who lives a significant part of the year with three morons who hate him.
The man deserves to fail.

Xondoure

2012-06-03, 11:38 PM

The man can't kill a child who lives a significant part of the year with three morons who hate him.
The man deserves to fail.

The man can't kill a child that's protected by the strongest magic in existence because he's so arrogant that he thinks his own magic can overcome it and has to in order to prove his own worth. Harry was, and has always been a special case.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-03, 11:41 PM

The man can't kill a child that's protected by the strongest magic in existence because he's so arrogant that he thinks his own magic can overcome it and has to in order to prove his own worth. Harry was, and has always been a special case.
Which just shows how arrogant the man is. He can't consider semi-mundane solutions like . . . charm up some gold, and hire a Muggle to do it.

Xondoure

2012-06-03, 11:47 PM

Which just shows how arrogant the man is. He can't consider semi-mundane solutions like . . . charm up some gold, and hire a Muggle to do it.

Sure he can. He was even aware of the very simple solution of letting someone else do it. But there's a dangerous balance he plays in his rule of fear, and Harry had to be an example for the rest of the wizarding world that nothing was stronger than him.

Muggles get no such breaks.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-03, 11:54 PM

Sure he can. He was even aware of the very simple solution of letting someone else do it. But there's a dangerous balance he plays in his rule of fear, and Harry had to be an example for the rest of the wizarding world that nothing was stronger than him.

Muggles get no such breaks.
The he has some pretty muddled priorities. Have the kid killed, potentially bad rap with some other Death Eaters but it gets the job done and the Prophesy is broken. Try pounding at the worlds strongest magic over and over, failing in front of other Death Eaters several times, and well, like they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Also, the Killing Curse is a pretty pathetic spell. Sure, if it hits, it kills you, but it can be dodged. Try dodging a bullet at those ranges.

Fjolnir

2012-06-03, 11:57 PM

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 12:25 AM

The other thing about Harry Potter is that Voldy wants to do it HIMSELF, he gets really annoyed when other go after Harry once he's back because he seriously only sees him as a threat due to a prophecy that he doesn't know all the details of.
He tried several times, and failed, horribly, in front of his minions. Even his book bound simulacrum failed.
As galling as it may be for ones ego, a good leader delegates.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 12:38 AM

The he has some pretty muddled priorities. Have the kid killed, potentially bad rap with some other Death Eaters but it gets the job done and the Prophesy is broken. Try pounding at the worlds strongest magic over and over, failing in front of other Death Eaters several times, and well, like they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Also, the Killing Curse is a pretty pathetic spell. Sure, if it hits, it kills you, but it can be dodged. Try dodging a bullet at those ranges.

Right, as has been pointed out Voldemort didn't have the whole prophecy. All he knew was that if he defeated Harry he would become invincible. That's why he had to be the one to do it in his mind.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 12:41 AM

Right, as has been pointed out Voldemort didn't have the whole prophecy. All he knew was that if he defeated Harry he would become invincible. That's why he had to be the one to do it in his mind.
So that's two kids he has to get killed. TWO. If I remember correctly, Neville was the other option from the information he had.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 01:24 AM

So that's two kids he has to get killed. TWO. If I remember correctly, Neville was the other option from the information he had.

Uh... there were two options for kids he has to get killed. Once he picked he picked.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 01:43 AM

Uh... there were two options for kids he has to get killed. Once he picked he picked.
Why not have both killed? Better safe than sorry.

Fjolnir

2012-06-04, 01:52 AM

I agree that he should have "killed the spare" as well but in this situation, he made the decision he made out of greed and a desire for immortality.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 01:57 AM

I agree that he should have "killed the spare" as well but in this situation, he made the decision he made out of greed and a desire for immortality.
That's a pretty big blind spot, which is pretty much my point.
I don't know how hard it is to make one, I don't believe the books say, but the man has an army of minions.
Surely making his own philosophers stone isn't out of the question?

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 02:32 AM

That's a pretty big blind spot, which is pretty much my point.
I don't know how hard it is to make one, I don't believe the books say, but the man has an army of minions.
Surely making his own philosophers stone isn't out of the question?

He was already immortal. And he didn't like the idea of a philosopher's stone because he would need to be near it nigh constantly. Killing Harry would have made him invincible.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 02:37 AM

He was already immortal. And he didn't like the idea of a philosopher's stone because he would need to be near it nigh constantly. Killing Harry would have made him invincible.
Ah, I suppose the old phrase "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" doesn't occur to most omnicidal megalomaniac psychopaths.

Nekura

2012-06-04, 02:39 AM

What murska said. :smalltongue:

The only inconsistency is that it breaks your suspension of disbelief such a thing is possible. And yet the wizarding world pulled it off. Following this universe's rules that means the masquerade is very very good. If we're throwing the setting out the window this discussion loses meaning. Which is something the other side brought up when we got all "collective geek minds take over the world with magic."

You forgot the part where them pulling it off ignores the stated abilities of the spell in the setting as well as their stated actions to cover it up.

Under the lack of a nose and red snake eyes lies the same school boy that was capable of charming the entire world into thinking of him as a saint while he set a basilisk loose on the school's residents. Within his own world he's a master of deception. Yes he's arrogant. But that doesn't automatically make him stupid. Unless you can point to a scenario in which his arrogance will endanger his cause beyond "he reveals the wizarding world and makes it so muggles can locate wizards because he doesn't think he can do anything about it" I don't see how his arrogance is relevant. Because he really wouldn't ever do the above.

Chaber of Secrets The diary's main goal should have been to drain all of Ginny's life so the horcrux could gain a body. But his arrogance had him setting the basilisk to kill muggleborns time after time even after it wasn't killing them which let people know something was going on ultimately leading to his failure.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 02:45 AM

You forgot the part where them pulling it off ignores the stated abilities of the spell in the setting as well as their stated actions to cover it up.

Chaber of Secrets The diary's main goal should have been to drain all of Ginny's life so the horcrux could gain a body. But his arrogance had him setting the basilisk to kill muggleborns time after time even after it wasn't killing them which let people know something was going on ultimately leading to his failure.

They only used one spell now? Obliviate has its uses but I'm sure more than that is used to keep the muggle world out of the loop.

And the diary was the mark of a younger Riddle who wanted to be recognized as Slytherin's heir. So he made a horcrux that wasn't used only as a safety net but also as a weapon. Which was unheard of because no one had ever made more than one.

Yes it failed, but Lucius wasn't even supposed to have let it loose at the time, so that was more fallout from being dead than anything else.

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-04, 03:07 AM

The thing is that we can only go on what we know, and what we know is contradictory but in general speaks for a Muggle victory:

1. Wizards control forces muggles can only dream of.

2. The masquerade have been holding for centuries, with only a very few muggles clued in (the royal families, presidents, premier ministers etc).

3. The masquerade is not written in a way that makes sense, with conflicting ideas that should make the concept impossible.

4. Wizards have stopped investigating or using technology somewhere around the turn of the last century. Even the most dedicated of them don't know what a subway train is, or how cars really work, or even mundane things like what toys are for.
(Older wizards seems to be TOTALLY clueless, like not knowing the difference between a summer dress and a wizard's robe).

5. The (potential) wizard leadership is heavily fragmented with strong tensions below the surface, all held together by idol worship and plain terror.

6. The wizard leader in question is extremely arrogant, cruel, flamboyant and lacks any kind of restraint, especially when angered.

7. The wizard leader in question is just as ignorant about the modern muggle world as everyone else.

I am sure there are more things we can bring to the table.

Also, is it just me or is it only the power trio of kids that really have a clue about modern society? Both Harry and Hermione grew up with muggles and Ron grew up with them, so to speak... How about the others? I distinctly remember things from the first books such as British wizard kids not knowing what Soccer was, for example...

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 03:12 AM

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-04, 03:23 AM

Ron didn't know about soccer cause he's a pureblood. He was educated at age eleven. And Dumbledore remarks how he has a scar the exact shape of the london underground. That and the night bus suggest most wizards know exactly as much about the muggle world as pleases them.

See point 3.

Seriously, I love the books, but that masquerade would fall apart in a fortnight, if not quicker. Rowling just don't treat it serious enough.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 03:26 AM

See point 3.

Seriously, I love the books, but that masquerade would fall apart in a fortnight, if not quicker. Rowling just don't treat it serious enough.

What conflicting ideas exactly? The wizarding world basically lives in a pocket dimension right next to ours, and there is almost certainly some sort of effect that makes it harder for muggles to believe what they're seeing is magic (dementors, platform 9 3/4, It only goes so far, but to me the premise seems to be people see what they think they should see.)

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 03:33 AM

It would take a high strength SEP field given how many mudbloods and half-bloods there is at Hogwarts.

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-04, 03:40 AM

It would take a high strength SEP field given how many mudbloods and half-bloods there is at Hogwarts.

Exactly. Plus the inconsistency of the amount of knowledge the other way.
Steam Trains, type writers, lightbulbs, the Night Bus... But no knowledge of the most basic things? Really?

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 03:48 AM

Exactly. Plus the inconsistency of the amount of knowledge the other way.
Steam Trains, type writers, lightbulbs, the Night Bus... But no knowledge of the most basic things? Really?

Well this is sort of my point. If we're going to take the wizarding world at face value. Then given how it was portrayed the muggles don't stand a chance. A more realistic wizarding world might have more problems, but then it wouldn't be Harry Potter.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 03:54 AM

Exactly. Plus the inconsistency of the amount of knowledge the other way.
Steam Trains, type writers, lightbulbs, the Night Bus... But no knowledge of the most basic things? Really?
I think Rowling's wisest world building decision was not to write about the present. Seriously, with modern social networking, heck, good old fashioned forums, it would be much harder to keep it a secret.
I can see it now . . .

scarhead42: hey, gotz cepted at hogwarts lol learn magix hax UNIVERSE!
rusty69: nowayz! me 2!
Nerdette: Well, of course, everyone knows about Hogwarts. I will send you a scan of "Hogwarts: A History" It is quite fascinating reading.
scarhead42: pass
rusty69: pass
HWMNBNWO:they have carriages pulled by invisible skeleton horses. I read about it online, here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody_Else%27s_Problem).
Nerdette: Right . . . *Nerdette raises an eyebrow dubiously*
scarhead42: lol
rusty69: rofl

pendell

2012-06-04, 10:48 AM

Well, again. It's enough to utterly annihilate the current day armed forces of Britain, France and the United States to a man.

It's not going to eliminate humanity, but it is going to cause a heavy dent militarily. Enough to say... win a war.

If the entire armed forces were to stand up against a wall and allow themselves to be easy targets, yes. As it is , they don't. They don't even if they are unaware of wizards specifically. There are all kinds of people who try to kill military service people by surprise, and they train both to avoid that and to avoid losing the whole oxcart at once to a 'decapitation' strike.

For one thing, recall that there are still plenty of SSBNs out in the ocean. If you're limited to line-of-sight weapons, it would be quite difficult to hunt them down and hit them with an Ava Kadavra or whatever. We can't use nukes in this scenario, but plenty of submarines are equipped with TLAMs et al that would allow them to cause no end of headache ... if they knew what targets to shoot at.

Wizard force is like any other force -- it only has an effect if it's used intelligently. During WWII in 1940 France, the Order of Battle showed France and Britain's military forces to be equal or superior to the Germans, but they were still catastrophically defeated because the Germans understood war with combustion engines far better than the allies did.

If we were to take the end of book 6 (which I haven't read, but still) as kickoff point, it seems to me that both muggle and wizard worlds have a great deal of capability to inflict harm but neither really understands the other. The first side to learn effectively how to match their strengths against the others weaknesses will win. Given the muggles have a lot more people who have brains, talent, and expertise in something OTHER than waving a wand, my money's on the muggles.

Even if the wizards win, it's one thing to win the initial battle or war and another to make sure it stays won. If the wizards aren't careful, they may find that, if the muggle world is a "body", the wizards are to it not a disease but a vaccine -- they cause enough damage to force the muggle world to adapt to them, resulting in a muggle world with both the knowledge and capability to defeat the wizard world. Once this occurs, the "masquerade" on which the wizarding world depends will be torn for centuries, and it will be the end of organized wizard society. Those that survive will be individuals unaware of their power, until the muggles forget and allow them to grow again.

Hmm .. given this, why exactly does Voldemort want to fight muggles again? Why not just go to another planet and use magic to make it habitable? Or travel to another dimension uninhabited by muggles?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tyndmyr

2012-06-04, 10:48 AM

Can someone please explain to me in what situation would this ever turn into a gun fight? I just don't see that scenario ever happening. Wizards would just lock themselves in their unplottable pocket dimensions and strike tactically. That's their go to strategy. What defenses could we possibly have against that?

D&D wizards, yes. D&D wizards in any substantial number, played the way we play them, would flatten us muggles.

Harry Potter wizards? God no. They don't know what tactics are. They don't seem to apparate much. They don't all live in pocket dimensions, and those that do seem to be tied to real world locations. So, they're gonna pop up somewhere, and strike something(probably not something terribly important), and get shot to hell because they don't know a great deal about what to expect.

Vold and Co are vicious, and violent, and amoral. They'll gleefully kill people on their way to kill more people, rules and strategy be damned. They do not carefully target the minimum number of people in the most tactical of strikes. That's just not who they are.

I think dodging bullets is referring to just moving erratically to make yourself a harder target and taking cover in a firefight. Which does make a big difference.

Taking cover matters a great deal. Last report I read, it was the single biggest factor in law enforcement officers surviving gunfights. Dodging bullets? Rather less of a thing. Bullets move remarkably fast, and gun barrels only need to move a few degrees to compensate for a pretty severe lunge on the targets part.

Under the lack of a nose and red snake eyes lies the same school boy that was capable of charming the entire world into thinking of him as a saint while he set a basilisk loose on the school's residents. Within his own world he's a master of deception. Yes he's arrogant. But that doesn't automatically make him stupid. Unless you can point to a scenario in which his arrogance will endanger his cause beyond "he reveals the wizarding world and makes it so muggles can locate wizards because he doesn't think he can do anything about it" I don't see how his arrogance is relevant. Because he really wouldn't ever do the above.

Sure. Stupidity is trying the same thing again and again and expecting different results. Trying the killing curse on potter the first time, as a baby? Well, failure there was a true surprise. No blame. Yet.

The second time? Look, the wizarding world has a LOT of ways to kill people. You'd think you'd have learned from the first mistake, given that it had kind of major consequences.

But no, even that wasn't enough. So...he tried it a third time.

Voldemort IS stupid, in his own way.

pendell

2012-06-04, 11:08 AM

Taking cover matters a great deal. Last report I read, it was the single biggest factor in law enforcement officers surviving gunfights. Dodging bullets? Rather less of a thing. Bullets move remarkably fast, and gun barrels only need to move a few degrees to compensate for a pretty severe lunge on the targets part.

Check my thinking on this .. imagine wizards meet a platoon of muggles in the woods.

The wizards see the muggles first. They use their wands. Some, but not all, of the muggles die.

The survivors take cover. Suddenly the wizards have no line of sight, no targets for their wands.

The muggles use squad automatic weapons to generate 'suppressive fire', because an M60 or M249 don't need line-of-sight to put a LOT of lead downrange in a hurry.

I assume some, but not all, wizards will die. If they're smart and brave , they don't panic and run but instead find cover. The muggles then use fire & movement drill, keeping them suppressed while another section comes in from the side and solves the problem with guns, grenades, knives, or even fists and teeth.

If the wizards have bullet-proof charms and are standing up laughing at the muggles, they're still visible targets without anyone to shoot at themselves. How long does that charm hold out? Is it all-aspect or only one direction? Does it work equally well against rifle grenades? At any rate, if they're standing there giving the muggles a target, the muggles will cycle through the available weaponry until they find something that works. If they've got a radio and can call in mortar or artillery fire, or even one of these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y6lZmLdtR4), well , there's a reason we say war is hell.

My bottom line is that it seems to me wizards are good at magic and not much else. I think the muggles have a better grasp of warfighting, counterintelligence, and counterterrorism. Until Voldemort et al finds a way to develop this expertise, the wizards are in trouble.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

comicshorse

2012-06-04, 11:15 AM

Fjolnir

2012-06-04, 01:02 PM

Considering Hermoine erases herself from her parent's minds and convinces them to get out of the country with magic, pretty darn effective.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 01:05 PM

Its been ages since I read the books so : How good are mind control spells ?
Do they work for just the task ? IF not how long before they wear off ? Can the victim resist it ? Do the victims appear to be normal or do they act like zombies ? Can the victims do complicated or intellectual tasks ? If challenged can they come up with ggod reasons they're performing these strange tasks ?

The victim can resist. The will save is ridiculously high. Only person I think we know for sure can pass it is Harry. Probably voldy and Dumbledore and a few others but we never see it. But imperio is very very good. It leaves the person just as capable as they were before and doesn't seem to have a time limit. This makes it the worst of the three in terms of how much damage it can do, and is the reason a lot of death eaters are still at large. They claimed they had been brainwashed and could not be blamed for their actions.

In regards to the assessing weaknesses of both sides thing. I agree. It just so happens that the wizards have a massive head start as the muggle world does not know they exist.

Tyndmyr

2012-06-04, 01:09 PM

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 01:13 PM

The issue is...Voldie doesn't just want to run a shadow government of puppets. He could have easily accomplished such in the wizarding world(and effectively did, along the way). He wants to be known and feared by all.

So, while working in secrecy IS effective, it's antithetical to who he is.

Longterm. My point in bringing up the chamber of secrets and his initial slow rise to power is that he can be very patient. He would make himself known eventually. Just after there was no way anyone stood a chance of stopping him. Just like he's tried to do every single time. The only reason he was found out during Harry's fifth year was because it didn't matter anymore. As quickly proven by him owning everything not eighteen months later.

Friv

2012-06-04, 01:14 PM

See point 3.

Seriously, I love the books, but that masquerade would fall apart in a fortnight, if not quicker. Rowling just don't treat it serious enough.

Given that Hermione, a half-trained teenager (albeit a very skilled one, but still) is able to completely remove all memories of herself from her parents' minds, in a way that eradicated physical evidence and papered over all of the gaps, and which presumably also applied to everyone else who knew her or else the whole thing would collapse the instant someone asked her parents how she was doing, the masquerade could fall apart on a weekly basis and the wizarding world would still be able to restore it. Muggles are hilariously vulnerable to magic.

Check my thinking on this .. imagine wizards meet a platoon of muggles in the woods.

The wizards see the muggles first. They use their wands. Some, but not all, of the muggles die.

The survivors take cover. Suddenly the wizards have no line of sight, no targets for their wands.

The muggles use squad automatic weapons to generate 'suppressive fire', because an M60 or M249 don't need line-of-sight to put a LOT of lead downrange in a hurry.

Allow me to suggest an opposing situation. Five wizards meet a platoon of twenty muggles in the woods. The wizards use their wands, and five muggles are now on the side of the wizards. Those soldiers open fire on their allies at point-blank range, while the wizards duck for cover. The wizards then set the forest on fire and apparate away.

Or even better, a single wizard hops into a local barracks in the middle of the night and Imperios a hundred soldiers, leaving them in place to serve as information gatherers and saboteurs. That curse is crazy-powerful.

comicshorse

2012-06-04, 01:25 PM

. This makes it the worst of the three in terms of how much damage it can do, and is the reason a lot of death eaters are still at large. They claimed they had been brainwashed and could not be blamed for their actions.

So you can just give somebody a whole new set of beliefs and leave them to run around enforcing these without bothering with them again ?
That is pretty damn useful

Tyndmyr

2012-06-04, 01:28 PM

Longterm. My point in bringing up the chamber of secrets and his initial slow rise to power is that he can be very patient. He would make himself known eventually. Just after there was no way anyone stood a chance of stopping him. Just like he's tried to do every single time. The only reason he was found out during Harry's fifth year was because it didn't matter anymore. As quickly proven by him owning everything not eighteen months later.

And every time, he jumped the gun, and was not actually unstoppable.

And frankly, the only reason he was found out during Harry's fifth year is that essentially everyone in that universe lives while burying their heads firmly under the sand.

Given that Hermione, a half-trained teenager (albeit a very skilled one, but still) is able to completely remove all memories of herself from her parents' minds, in a way that eradicated physical evidence and papered over all of the gaps, and which presumably also applied to everyone else who knew her or else the whole thing would collapse the instant someone asked her parents how she was doing, the masquerade could fall apart on a weekly basis and the wizarding world would still be able to restore it. Muggles are hilariously vulnerable to magic.

We see a great many demonstrated examples that the protagonists, and hermoine in particular, are capable of pulling off better magic than the average wizard...even adult wizards, yes.

Using her as a barometer of average is likely flawed. In addition to being good with magic, she's also substantially better than average at using magic in intelligent ways. Other people would be vastly more likely to overlook things.

Allow me to suggest an opposing situation. Five wizards meet a platoon of twenty muggles in the woods. The wizards use their wands, and five muggles are now on the side of the wizards. Those soldiers open fire on their allies at point-blank range, while the wizards duck for cover. The wizards then set the forest on fire and apparate away.

Imperio is only ever depicted as being used from fairly close range, requires notable force of will, and can occasionally be resisted. Also, it's reasonable to assume that, as with essentially all potter magic, LOS is required. Lastly, if poorly done, it can have side effects(ie, the muggle minister from the books).

This is likely to result in a bunch of muggles dying, but a few wizards catching bullets. Look at the population levels. This is not a winning strategy for the wizards.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 01:31 PM

Apparate in under invisibility charms in the dead of night. Cast imperio on those sleeping. Wizards would never be taking bullets unless something went horribly wrong.

Forum Explorer

2012-06-04, 01:38 PM

See point 3.

Seriously, I love the books, but that masquerade would fall apart in a fortnight, if not quicker. Rowling just don't treat it serious enough.

The biggest problem with Harry Potter is that Rowling just didn't want to deal with these sort of issues. Like the Hermonine example for instance. Wouldn't her neighbors notice her absence and talk to her parents about it? Who suddenly wouldn't know who they were talking about? Or blaming it on a hurricane when there clearly was no hurricane at all and the entire world would notice that! So either the Muggles in that universe are just as stupid as the wizards (and thus it isn't our world), or it's a plot hole you can fly Jupiter through and the biggest missed sequel hook ever.

I mean the reason for the Masquerade in the first place is: "Oh we don't want to be bothered. So lets go to insane lengths to prevent the Muggles from learning about us, including kicking wizards out of magical society."

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-04, 02:04 PM

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 02:05 PM

The biggest problem with Harry Potter is that Rowling just didn't want to deal with these sort of issues. Like the Hermonine example for instance. Wouldn't her neighbors notice her absence and talk to her parents about it? Who suddenly wouldn't know who they were talking about? Or blaming it on a hurricane when there clearly was no hurricane at all and the entire world would notice that! So either the Muggles in that universe are just as stupid as the wizards (and thus it isn't our world), or it's a plot hole you can fly Jupiter through and the biggest missed sequel hook ever.

I mean the reason for the Masquerade in the first place is: "Oh we don't want to be bothered. So lets go to insane lengths to prevent the Muggles from learning about us, including kicking wizards out of magical society."

I believe at a certain point a choice had to be made between rule the entire world with an iron fist or go into hiding. This because wizards had done a pretty bad job of endearing themselves to the nonmagical population. The purebloods are still angry that the wizarding world chose the second option.

Nekura

2012-06-04, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Xondoure
Longterm. My point in bringing up the chamber of secrets and his initial slow rise to power is that he can be very patient. He would make himself known eventually. Just after there was no way anyone stood a chance of stopping him. Just like he's tried to do every single time. The only reason he was found out during Harry's fifth year was because it didn't matter anymore. As quickly proven by him owning everything not eighteen months later.

....I brought up the chamber of secrets and I don't see how you can claim it shows he is patient it shows the exact opposite. The diary knew it as riddle had opened the chamber before but had to stop because it was drawing too much attention from Dumbledore. Then from Ginny it learned how he ended up dieing years latter and never bothered with the chamber again as a waste of time. Either time he opened the chamber it brought few if any deaths toward his cause of killing "mudbloods" and brought attention he wasn't ready for. If anything it shows the creation of horcruxes did nothing good for his sanity or common sense.

You ignored me when I brought up that taking over the ministry was Malfoy's doing with his friends in high positions due to pureblood status and wealth not infiltration. It could have been done much sooner before the first war. Dumbledore or other "light" wizards wouldn't have been able to stop it. You say wizards getting into situations were they can be shot would being doing it wrong. Well that’s how they are shown to act doing it wrong. how do you expect them to get to where they can control all those high up people? You can't apperate to places unless you know them. The big issue is you don't seem able to separate what Voldemort would do and what you would do if you were Voldemort.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-04, 02:49 PM

If we start speculating about things not explicitly in the books or movies: Am I the only one that finds it VERY weird that there is not an MI X division of government that does nothing but keep track of wizards and create countermeasures...
Who says there isn't?
After all, Muggles in high office know of magic.
Also, it bears repeating this would not be just the Muggles verses the Wizards, HWMNBN and company also wants to destroy the mudbloods and half-bloods, so it would be in their interest to try and help the Muggles, if only for their continued existence.
To the fan-fiction mobile!

pendell

2012-06-04, 02:51 PM

Apparate in under invisibility charms in the dead of night. Cast imperio on those sleeping. Wizards would never be taking bullets unless something went horribly wrong.

Muggle counter to apparating wizards: Sentries. Guard dogs. Motion detectors. As the phenomenon of teleportation is better understood, possibly additional sensors or even technology to block teleportation altogether.

David Drake's At Any Price (http://www.amazon.com/At-Any-Price-Rolling-Hot/dp/B004Y1RKJK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1338838588&sr=8-4) dealt with human mercenaries fighting teleporting aliens. It turns out (in the book ,anyway) , that a teleportation gives some warning -- ionization, air displacement -- and they built sensors to detect that activity, giving them a few seconds warning before the opponent materialized. For alert men with guns, this spelled the difference between life and death.

My point is, "catch men sleeping in their barracks" has been a strategy since before Alexander fought the Greeks. It's why the Romans made a point of building a camp every night. As the threats change, so the manner of protection changes as well.

I guess my point is that I don't believe that a war between humans is ever so simple as "I have the I win button technology, therefore I win". The laser rangefinder can be bashed with a rock (http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/techy.htm). Force is only useful if it is used intelligently. Just as giving a rifle to a 17-year-old doesn't make him a soldier, so does giving a battery of abilities -- such as the ability to kill with a wand or mind-control a target -- to a wizard doesn't make him combat effective. It needs to be supported by intelligent doctrine which allow wizards to fight effectively. This doesn't exist in Rowling's books , because Rowling herself appears to have only a limited understanding of such things. Harry Potter is a once-upon-a-time fairy tale, and the more we try to impose the logic and rules of the real world on it, the more it comes apart at the seams.

Could the wizards win if they brought in Lord Hamster (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F016.jpg) and took the time to learn how to fight muggles effectively? Most certainly. But as written in the books? I doubt it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 04:21 PM

We see just how effective alarm systems are against wizards with Horace Slughorn. And it really doesn't matter if Malfoy helped take control of the ministry, the point is that they subverted the ministry until the wizarding government was working for them. And that this would be oh so much easier to do to muggles.

I am not trying to create a distinction between what I would do and what Voldemort would do. Because I can only think of him in terms of how I perceive him. Basically, there are a million and one ways wizards could subvert and corrupt our system and we won't even know they're doing it until it's too late. I'm sorry but Voldemort is not so stupid as to throw away his advantages. Harry Potter is, and will always be an exception built upon every single flaw that could possibly have been exploited. And despite all of that he still would have won if it wasn't for one completely improbable development after another (as an example, the only thing required for this scenario of Voldemort versus the world to occur is Draco not disarming Dumbledore atop the tower.)

Honestly, in every Harry Potter vs. Thread it always comes down to "but they're all idiots" and I just don't understand that. Voldemort was exceptional. And not just gifted in magic, it takes charisma and intelligence to accomplish what he has regardless of his origin. This is a man so terrifying he has an entire population living in fear of saying his name. Not once is he ever portrayed in a losing scenario other than when facing Harry, and that is again mostly because he didn't hear the whole prophecy.

People bring up the doing the same thing and expecting different results as if it proves something when each time was different. Lily's protection appeared. So he bypassed that. Then priori incantatem interfered so he bypassed that. Then things got weird and he had to resort to the elder wand. Then horcruxes interfered. And then finally the elder wand's allegiance wasn't his based on a technicality. And the reason he thought he had to be the one to finish Harry was because all he knew was that if he did he could not be defeated.

So in short, Voldemort's smart. He does two things very well: use magic, and take control of things. He's done these two things very well since he could walk. He is also very patient. You have to be if you're going to suffer as a specter whenever someone get's cute and rebounds a killing curse at you. He does one thing very badly: understand love, because he's a raging sociopath.

Edit: If they are ever fighting muggles at all something has gone horribly wrong. This is not a war, it's just a massacre. Wizards get serious and the nuclear fallout will kill more than anything else. Our weapons are their weapons. Our leaders are their pawns. The only thing that isn't theirs is our infrastructure. But they don't need that so that's quickly brought down as well.

Fjolnir

2012-06-04, 05:15 PM

The biggest problem with Harry Potter is that Rowling just didn't want to deal with these sort of issues. Like the Hermonine example for instance. Wouldn't her neighbors notice her absence and talk to her parents about it? Who suddenly wouldn't know who they were talking about? Or blaming it on a hurricane when there clearly was no hurricane at all and the entire world would notice that! So either the Muggles in that universe are just as stupid as the wizards (and thus it isn't our world), or it's a plot hole you can fly Jupiter through and the biggest missed sequel hook ever.

I mean the reason for the Masquerade in the first place is: "Oh we don't want to be bothered. So lets go to insane lengths to prevent the Muggles from learning about us, including kicking wizards out of magical society."

The point is that she brainwashes them into making them MOVE to an area where there aren't going to be people she has to chain brainwash in order to make her house of cards stable.

Nekura

2012-06-04, 05:30 PM

We see just how effective alarm systems are against wizards with Horace Slughorn.

Do we? I don't recall them mentioning any alarm systems on that house. A lot of homes don't have them.

And it really doesn't matter if Malfoy helped take control of the ministry, the point is that they subverted the ministry until the wizarding government was working for them.

It wasn't so much help as Malfoy doing everything. And the point is that it could have been done much sooner and easier with someone competant running the show instead of Voldemort.

I am not trying to create a distinction between what I would do and what Voldemort would do.

That is what the problem is. You don't have to create a distinction it's already there as shown in his actions in the books. You can't see the distinction between what wizards do and what you would do in their place. You say no muggles know of wizards. Well if you ran the show for wizards you most likely wouldn't let them know. However in the books muggle governments already know and it's unrealistic they wounldn't set up plans with that knowledge. there are also a lot of families with muggleborns that know.

He is also very patient. You have to be if you're going to suffer as a specter whenever someone get's cute and rebounds a killing curse at you.

Having no good plan to get a body back and having no other choice but to suffer as a specter is not a good example of patience. You have yet to give a good example of him being patient.

Gnoman

2012-06-04, 05:56 PM

Actually, that's an excellent example of patience. He himself described the state as one in which he had to continually will himself to exist. If you can't show patience, there's no way to survive in such a state. Other examples of him showing patience:

The entirety of Book 5. Once he has returned to power, he might as well not exist. For an entire year. He has things moving behind the scenes, but his failure to kill Harry in book 4 is the only reason anybody but his followers know he's back.

1945- (unknown, but it appears to be somewhere in the mid-60s early 70s.) While he's still planning and waiting, he seems to have taken little open action at this point. While Dumbledore, who always suspected what Riddle could be, has heard "dark rumours," and he has changed his name, it is unqestionable that he has not yet become the Dark Lord that he was destined to be, as it seems that only Dumbledore has suspicions of him.

Nekura

2012-06-04, 06:44 PM

Forum Explorer

2012-06-04, 06:51 PM

The point is that she brainwashes them into making them MOVE to an area where there aren't going to be people she has to chain brainwash in order to make her house of cards stable.

Yeah but moving isn't subtle. I don't even have neighbors and I bet if I moved people would show up and start asking questions. Also unless they were retired (I think they were actually dentists) then their co-workers and customers would also have questions. It's a house of cards no matter what. Something big like that can't be done with the power described in the books.

Xondoure

2012-06-04, 09:34 PM

If he had to will himself to exist the horcruxes were not doing the job properly. They anchored him what was he going to do kill himself? It wasn't him waiting patiently to enact a plan he had no plan. Dumbledore having the stone in school wasn't anything he could have planned he just reacted. No death eater contacted him and he didn't contact them. He was clearly mobile as a wraith but did nothing in all that time obvious or behind the scenes.

He was only laying low because he was scared how Harry was able to beat him and trying to figure out how the wands locking happened. Any working behind the scenes was unlikely to have him behind it as that’s not how he operates.

Ok so he was willing to recruit followers instead of trying to take over the world by himself right out of school. That shows some patience but the way he tried to take over after getting those recruits shows a lack of patience and not subtle infiltrations. The only reason it almost worked was because people like DUMBledore refused to let people fight the war as a war and kill the death eaters not careful planning.

See I think the issue is we have very different ideas of the characters. I remember reading about a cold, calculating, ruthless man who outsmarted and outgunned the wizarding world at every turn. And that's exactly what I saw. Yes he uses fear in his tactics. So do a lot of real world powers. That doesn't invalidate any and all use of tactics.

And you simply can't say the only thing he was doing during their fifth year was studying wand lore, and that this proves incompetence. The death eaters managed to dance circles around the ministry the entire time including breaking the most dangerous of his followers out of askaban.

Anyways my point is you seem to have separated Voldemort from any and all competence shown by the villains in your head and are using that as a justification for him doing something stupid in his coming take over of everything. When even if he was separated the fact that his minions can be that competent should not be ignored.

pendell

2012-06-05, 08:19 AM

See I think the issue is we have very different ideas of the characters. I remember reading about a cold, calculating, ruthless man who outsmarted and outgunned the wizarding world at every turn. And that's exactly what I saw. Yes he uses fear in his tactics. So do a lot of real world powers. That doesn't invalidate any and all use of tactics.

And you simply can't say the only thing he was doing during their fifth year was studying wand lore, and that this proves incompetence. The death eaters managed to dance circles around the ministry the entire time including breaking the most dangerous of his followers out of askaban.

Anyways my point is you seem to have separated Voldemort from any and all competence shown by the villains in your head and are using that as a justification for him doing something stupid in his coming take over of everything. When even if he was separated the fact that his minions can be that competent should not be ignored.

I'm a bit at a loss compared to some other people in this thread because I have only passing familiarity with the books, but my impression is that Voldemort is quite competent within his area of expertise. But being good at one thing is not the same thing as being omnicompetent. I think he would fall into the trap that Vaarsuvius fell into when ze sought 'ultimate arcane power' -- believing that magic is all powerful, and having a blind spot when it comes to non-magical solutions. This is not helped by his arrogance, which may imply a fatal underestimation of muggle capabilities.

Certainly he underestimated the capabilities of mudbloods, which is why he lost in the books.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tyndmyr

2012-06-05, 10:10 AM

See I think the issue is we have very different ideas of the characters. I remember reading about a cold, calculating, ruthless man who outsmarted and outgunned the wizarding world at every turn. And that's exactly what I saw. Yes he uses fear in his tactics. So do a lot of real world powers. That doesn't invalidate any and all use of tactics.

And you simply can't say the only thing he was doing during their fifth year was studying wand lore, and that this proves incompetence. The death eaters managed to dance circles around the ministry the entire time including breaking the most dangerous of his followers out of askaban.

Anyways my point is you seem to have separated Voldemort from any and all competence shown by the villains in your head and are using that as a justification for him doing something stupid in his coming take over of everything. When even if he was separated the fact that his minions can be that competent should not be ignored.

The wizarding world was shown as vastly incompetent, even in comparison to the student protagonist and his young allies. Defeating them was no great feat of intellect.

His followers range from mustache wearing villains to the utterly insane. They are not a disciplined, tactical strike team.

Emmerask

2012-06-05, 01:19 PM

Xondoure

2012-06-05, 02:38 PM

Nekura

2012-06-05, 02:39 PM

Wait what, when did they ever create more dementors? They don't even explain how anyone controls dementors. We are told of only one spell that has any affect on them the patronus and most wizards can't cast it. Although that might be because Dumbledore is intentionally dumbing down wizards by hiring incompetent teachers across the board not just in the "cursed" DADA position.

The Glyphstone

2012-06-05, 02:40 PM

Xondoure

2012-06-05, 02:48 PM

The dark grey dreariness that was in book six or seven? That was Dementors breeding.

Emmerask

2012-06-05, 02:50 PM

The last book actually says that they are breeding all over britain.

Also in the third book it was mentioned that given enough time in close contact with dementors will make them into a dementor themselves.

Presumably askhaban is not close enough contact else the death eaters there would have become dementors too.

Ravens_cry

2012-06-05, 04:17 PM

The dark grey dreariness that was in book six or seven? That was Dementors breeding.
Does that mean Harry Potter counts as erotica for Dementors?

Misery Esquire

2012-06-05, 04:32 PM

The muggle world is nearing its end as all life drowns in never ending misery. And then upon the horizon, countless three feet tall figures emerge weapon in hand to fight the darkness. A young man walks up in a bright purple suit.

"Not to fear. Chocolate's here. By the Charlie Bucketful."

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory vs. Dementors. Make it happen people.

Dementors ; "Woooosh, we're creepy and want to eat your soul."
Wonka ; "It happens every time, they all become blueberries."
Deme- Blueberries ; "What?"
Wizard ; "That's unbelievable!"
Wonka ; "It's Wonkavision."
/cue theme

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-05, 05:10 PM

Dementors ; "Woooosh, we're creepy and want to eat your soul."
Wonka ; "It happens every time, they all become blueberries."
Deme- Blueberries ; "What?"
Wizard ; "That's unbelievable!"
Wonka ; "It's Wonkavision."
/cue theme

Okay now I need a Dr Who vs Wonka vs Harry Potter crossover.

Little Brother

2012-06-05, 06:41 PM

Dementors are the only threat, really. I doubt the Invisibility charms make you room temperature. Voldemort has talents and brains, but he is simply too far into the Koolaid to use it. It's like an evil Blue Lantern without a Green Latern with it.

He wastes the time he could be quietly prepping to kill mudbloods for teh lulz. He thinks muggles are cattle. They ca be dropped at will, tactics be damned.

Wizards are a good thousand years in the past. Seriously, most of them don't even understand what a compass is, or basic algebra, which we've had since Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī invented it in, what, 750-ish.

They are so hopelessly clueless. I mean, Voldemort's soul is a perfect example. How many evil wizards have there been? How many made Horcruxes? Now, tell me that, in the thousands of years(Or at least over a thousand) of Wizarding history, NO ONE thought of that. It's to the point where I theorize that excessive magic use causes brain damage.

Now, yes, a couple of wizards could teleport into Time Square and kill everyone there. Things to keep in mind: One, predator drones. I cannot say this enough. Wizard pops out of nowhere, predator drone drops on him. I mean, we outnumber the devoted ones, what, couple hundred thousand to one? The casualties would be unfortunate, but mostly irrelevant. Two: They'd simply be better off grabbing a bomb, teleporting, droping the bomb, and teleporting away. Gunpowder in over a millennium old. It isn't that complicated. Rockets, bombs, etc. aren't new. Also, even a crossbow would be deadlier than a wand in most cases, and how old are Cho Ko Nu?

Now, some wizards would defect. There are magical means to block teleportation, detect magic, etc. So, a couple of defections later, we know where every wizard is, when magic is being cast, can block teleports, etc. Their teleportation cannot be used for ganking important locations anymore. Their single biggest advantage is gone. Hiding is also gone. Now, we leave it to drones and ordinance.

Plus, there's the unbreakable vow, so terms of surrender are workable. You don't HAVE to go all the way to genocide.

pendell

2012-06-05, 06:48 PM

I'm wondering .. has Harry Potter ever been adapted to the D20 system? That might give us some ideas of the weaknesses and strengths, of, say, Voldemort, who I assume would be an NPC in a module.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Glyphstone

2012-06-05, 07:18 PM

D
They are so hopelessly clueless. I mean, Voldemort's soul is a perfect example. How many evil wizards have there been? How many made Horcruxes? Now, tell me that, in the thousands of years(Or at least over a thousand) of Wizarding history, NO ONE thought of that. It's to the point where I theorize that excessive magic use causes brain damage.

Not that you don't have valid points, but did you forget that Voldemort learned how to make his Horcrux from books? It had obviously been done in the past,. otherwise no one would have written about it in tomes of Dark magic. Where Voldemort was 'innovative' was in making seven Horcruxes - even the most evil wizards before him hadn't been willing to go that far; it wasn't his intelligence that was exceptional, it was his depravity. Even Evil Has Limits, basically, unless you're Voldemort.

Little Brother

2012-06-05, 07:37 PM

Not that you don't have valid points, but did you forget that Voldemort learned how to make his Horcrux from books? It had obviously been done in the past,. otherwise no one would have written about it in tomes of Dark magic. Where Voldemort was 'innovative' was in making seven Horcruxes - even the most evil wizards before him hadn't been willing to go that far; it wasn't his intelligence that was exceptional, it was his depravity. Even Evil Has Limits, basically, unless you're Voldemort.The splitting it multiple times was what I was referring to. I remember that it was the thing for evil overlord wizards, but nobody had done multiple.

Now say I'm some evil overlord. I want immortality. Seven, thirteen, a hundred plot coupons are better than one. If all of them are required to be destroyed for you to die, then more=better. If no other wizard thought of this, that just supports my idea of magic causing brain damage. I mean, that's just like "figuring out" that you can add six inches to a short sword, and make it more effective. Or maybe that you can extend a magazine to hold more bullets.

Emmerask

2012-06-05, 07:49 PM

I think the problem lies more in the splitting of your soul part, from the books it seemed that he had to undergo numerous "dangerous transformations" to be even able to split his soul more then once.
And walking around with only a tiny fraction of yourself can´t be that good a deal I would guess ^^

Murska

2012-06-05, 07:50 PM

Xondoure

2012-06-05, 08:05 PM

I think it's sort of implied that tearing your soul to pieces has some drawbacks as well, at least to people who aren't psychopaths.

I think it's been thoroughly established that Wizards won't win a shooting war, or any sort of a war where Muggles become aware of their existance, but intelligent Wizards would on the other hand easily subvert and take control of the entire world.

Debate is just about whether Voldy would do that or not, and the consensus seems to mostly point towards not.

I'd argue even if muggles were aware it would never turn into a shooting match unless the wizards have seriously messed up.

Also as to heat sensors, I repeat: sensory equipment gets shot to hell with magic. This has been well established.

Murska

2012-06-05, 08:10 PM

Well, magic is compatible with science in the setting, ergo I'm quite confident that Muggles could figure out ways to study and counter it, and they'd also most likely gain help from turncoat Wizards as mentioned. The sheer manpower advantage Muggles have means the Wizards simply cannot control all of them, so they'd have to control the organizations that already control the people, and if people are aware of the threat they won't be controlled by said organizations.

The Glyphstone

2012-06-05, 08:13 PM

The splitting it multiple times was what I was referring to. I remember that it was the thing for evil overlord wizards, but nobody had done multiple.

Now say I'm some evil overlord. I want immortality. Seven, thirteen, a hundred plot coupons are better than one. If all of them are required to be destroyed for you to die, then more=better. If no other wizard thought of this, that just supports my idea of magic causing brain damage. I mean, that's just like "figuring out" that you can add six inches to a short sword, and make it more effective. Or maybe that you can extend a magazine to hold more bullets.

As said below:

I think the problem lies more in the splitting of your soul part, from the books it seemed that he had to undergo numerous "dangerous transformations" to be even able to split his soul more then once.
And walking around with only a tiny fraction of yourself can´t be that good a deal I would guess ^^

I think it's sort of implied that tearing your soul to pieces has some drawbacks as well, at least to people who aren't psychopaths.

Assuming you're not a raging psychopathic lunatic, LB, you wouldn't be wanting to create more than one Horcrux, if even that. Without wandering any closer to the metaphysical aspects, it's blatantly obvious that Horcruxes are far from simply easy immortality. Sure, you're going to live forever if you have your hundreds of Horcruxes, but at what cost? Voldemort had seven, and was a deranged nutcase - I suspect these were not unrelated, given how Rowling's world makes death a big deal. It's not like D&D where the afterlife has a revolving door, and thus making yourself a horcruxphylactery only requires burning down a few orphanages by throwing flaming puppies at them - death is permanent and irreversable (barring a single mythical artifact that can't even get it completely right), so avoiding death comes at a heavy price. Avoiding death in multiple layers is a price so heavy Voldemort was the first person insane enough to attempt it.

comicshorse

2012-06-05, 08:26 PM

I'd argue even if muggles were aware it would never turn into a shooting match unless the wizards have seriously messed up.

Also as to heat sensors, I repeat: sensory equipment gets shot to hell with magic. This has been well established.

Really ? It says technical devices don't work around Hogwarts. That the only example I can think of

Xondoure

2012-06-05, 08:54 PM

Really ? It says technical devices don't work around Hogwarts. That the only example I can think of

That charm is available, but I was referring to how easy Slughorn found it to flummox muggle security.

Little Brother

2012-06-05, 10:16 PM

Assuming you're not a raging psychopathic lunatic, LB, you wouldn't be wanting to create more than one Horcrux, if even that. Without wandering any closer to the metaphysical aspects, it's blatantly obvious that Horcruxes are far from simply easy immortality.Voldemort made it seem pretty easy.

Sure, you're going to live forever if you have your hundreds of Horcruxes, but at what cost? Voldemort had seven, and was a deranged nutcase - I suspect these were not unrelated, given how Rowling's world makes death a big deal.I agree, they are not unrelated. However, I think it's pretty clear it's the other way around. Look at Tommy in school. He basically had a bunch of mudbloods eaten by a snake for kick'n'giggles. Also, hunting around in the girls bathroom for a magic slide and room. Not for anything else a creeper might do in there, but a magic, probably-nonexistant room, plus, he was otherwise a general psychopath(And a bad one. More like Ramsey than Roose). I mean, that doesn't quite sound to me like the model of ideal mental health

It's not like D&D where the afterlife has a revolving door, and thus making yourself a horcruxphylactery only requires burning down a few orphanages by throwing flaming puppies at them - death is permanent and irreversable (barring a single mythical artifact that can't even get it completely right), so avoiding death comes at a heavy price. Avoiding death in multiple layers is a price so heavy Voldemort was the first person insane enough to attempt it.Really? There have been plenty of psycho dictators in the world, and plenty of mad wizards I have trouble believing that NONE of them would have done it. Plus, being invisible, incorporeal, and stupid for a decade tends not to be good for mental health.

thubby

2012-06-05, 10:33 PM

im not a huge HP fan, but aren't the wizards hiding from muggles for a reason?

Marillion

2012-06-05, 10:48 PM

Really? There have been plenty of psycho dictators in the world, and plenty of mad wizards I have trouble believing that NONE of them would have done it. Plus, being invisible, incorporeal, and stupid for a decade tends not to be good for mental health.

There may have been others enough insane to do it, and others who knew how to do it, and others who possessed the sheer power to do it, but I don't think there were very many people who were all three. It takes a very special combination of power, knowledge, and depravity to fracture your soul in a controlled manner even once, let alone seven times. If he weren't a direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin, I don't think he'd have been able to do it.

pendell

2012-06-06, 08:26 AM

That charm is available, but I was referring to how easy Slughorn found it to flummox muggle security.

How many levels in Rogue does Slughorn have? Just because he can do it easily doesn't mean all wizards can, any more than the fact that just because an expert burglar can defeat a home security system doesn't mean your average human -- or average soldier -- can do so.

It's not a reasonable comparison to assume that every wizard has the maximum capabilities revealed in the books by *one*, unless it specifically says or is reasonable to assume that all wizards have this capability. That all wizards have wands is pretty much a given. That all wizards are experts at defeating muggle security, or can become so given training, is another question.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there's a magical counter to every conceivable muggle security countermeasure. The question is, is there *one* counter that works on everything? Will it continue to work when new countermeasures come up? Does it have to be adapted? Or do you need a brand new charm? I'm pretty sure spells to stop muggle IR devices didn't exist before IR devices were actually invented. How long did it take wizards to counteract them? Did you know, for example, it's possible to send information over a power line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication)? Do the wizards?

So ... yes, there's probably a charm for every known muggle technology , and possibly some charms that work on several or are 'all-purpose'. The thing is, in a good security environment muggles wouldn't depend on any one technology to give an answer. They would use a number of technologies to present a spectrum of threats.

These techs can be countered by muggles with sufficient intel and skill, so it can probably be done by wizards as well. But if I were a wizard, I wouldn't just simply *assume* that my charms would always work perfectly, or that it is a trivial thing for any wizard to defeat muggle security. I would assume that, any time I attempted it, I was rolling the dice. And even if there is only a 1 in 100 chance of getting caught that still means I'm certain to have an encounter in 100 attempts.

In the real world, there are techniques and technologies to defeat all known security. The fact that these exist does not mean that security is not worth doing, or that a sufficiently motivated criminal can break into a bank vault "with ease".

Once muggles become aware of a security breach, the wizards will be in a 'security arms race' with the muggles as both sides develop techniques to defeat the other, much as IT professionals and hackers are in a constant arms race to protect computers.

In such an arms race, the muggles have a distinct advantage both in their numbers and in their ability to perceive non-magical solutions.

We keep talking in this thread about muggles being at a disadvantage because they don't understand magic. This is true. But the wizards equally don't understand muggle technology. So both sides have glaring blind spots with respect to the other. As they fight each other and learn from each other, the side with the larger resources ultimately has the advantage, and will prevail in a protracted conflict.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tyndmyr

2012-06-06, 09:26 AM

Well there is still the possibility of a wraith-o-calypse.
The first part would be breeding (which happens in the book), when the critical mass is achieved, which is possible with wizards not controlling the population, you have a completely none responsive population (all trapped in their own mind) being devoured to create even more dementors.

Humanity can´t do anything against this, only problem would be that afterwards you would have billions of dementors roaming the country which would also be a very real threat to wizards... but voldemort is not really what you would call a sane person so that would be a very real possibility if everything else fails ^^

We're not at all sure how dementors reproduce, are we? It never is shown in the books. I wouldn't assume that them eating a human results in two dementors...if it does, given that they appear to be basically unkillable, it would have made little sense to be engaged in feeding them.

So, if they reproduce, it would almost have to be very slowly. Immortality and rapid breeding would have already led to the dementorpocalypse.

And given azkaban, this proximity = reproduction thing would seem to be pretty suspect.

I'd argue even if muggles were aware it would never turn into a shooting match unless the wizards have seriously messed up.

Also as to heat sensors, I repeat: sensory equipment gets shot to hell with magic. This has been well established.

Only in close proximity. Things like motion sensors work for a notable distance, with nothing more complex than a beam of light anywhere close to the magical source.

Additionally, "disrupts electronics" is a form of detection in itself. A remarkably useful one.

Misery Esquire

2012-06-06, 10:02 AM

Okay now I need a Dr Who vs Wonka vs Harry Potter crossover.

More difficult...

Doctor ; "Yeah, this is definitly a golden ticket. Can I get in to see the chocolate?"
Wonka ; "Positivitly!"
Harry ; "I've got a golden ticket!"
Wonka ; "Wonderful, you bespectacled lad!"
Voldemort ; "Haaaaarrry Poottter...
Doctor ; "The dark wizard Voldemort?"
Harry ; "VOLDEMORT!"
RON ; "HARRY, IT'S HE-WHO-MUST-NOT-BE-NAMED!"
Doctor ; "Now, now. My name is an entirely different plot."
Oompah Loompahs ;

Oompah, loompah, doompadedoo
We've know a little rhyme just for you
When you're a dark wizard and kill all your friends
You'll find yourself coming to a bad end
Like Peter Pettigrew and
His deadly hand!

What do you get when you practise magic?
Bending over books with your back in a crick
Spending all day becoming ever more slick
Can't you give your wand a flick?

Or are you secretly Snape?

Oompah, Loompah, Do-ba-de-doo
If you're a wizard,
we're coming for you."

Doctor ; "That's a bit odd."
Wonka ; "Odd? Sometimes you're stranger for the strangening."
Doctor ; "That's what they are! Strangians!"
Wonka ; "No, Oompah Loompas."
Oompah Loompas ;
"
Oompah, Loompa, Do-pa-de-doo
Hey, there's a traveller who goes very far
Back and forth in time
But he likes our candy bars
Working on Earth is not a crime

But you are nosy and you can see,
That we will cook you alive at a thousand degrees
So your blue box cannot save you now
Wouldn't the Daleks be Proud?

That we managed it with no commercial breaks
"

Voldemort ; "ENOUGH SINGING! HAVE AT YOU Avada Kedav-"
Doctor ; /waves Sonic Screwdriver
*CHOCOLATE RIVER MALFUNCTION HERE*
Chocolate Doctor ; "Well, you can't expect to just wander around killing people willy-nilly."
Chocolate Harry ; "Mmmmph!"
Chocolate Voldemort ; "YOUR PUNY MAGIC CANNOT STOP M-!"
Wonka ; "Chocolate people! Now if only there were some chocolate cannibals to sell to..."
Ron ; "Hey, I'm bac-... ...Is that a chocolate Harry Potter?"
Wonka ; "Why, yes. I suppose it is! Hairy chocolate. I don't know about that name. It'll need more barbers involved."
Ron ; "...Can I have the chocolate Harry?"
Hermione ; "Ron, that's the real Harry."
Ron ; "..."
...
...
Ron ; "Can I have it anyway?"
Dalek ; "THE ONLY THING YOU WILL HAVE IS THE CHANCE TO BE EXTERMINATED."

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-06, 12:29 PM

Stuff

Thank you for making my afternoon. :smallsmile:

Philistine

2012-06-06, 03:02 PM

The really insuperable problem with this discussion is that we don't know how magic works in Rowling's world. And I don't even mean "what forces does magic manipulate?," I mean "what specific charms/spells/potions are available, and what exactly are the effects of any given one?" Even with common effects like the Shield charm, we don't know how long it lasts, how strong it is, whether it can stand up to repeated attacks, whether a wizard can activate it fast enough to matter against gun-armed Muggles, whether it gives all-round or directional protection, and so on. Let alone something complicated - like, what does it mean to say that a location is Unplottable? Or worse, what exactly does the "anti-tech" Charm do? Technology isn't just cars, cell phones, and computers, you know - basics like books and indoor plumbing and controlled use of fire are still technology, too (even if we no longer consider them to be advanced technology), and those work just fine inside Hogwarts. The charm doesn't block out the light and heat of the Sun, would/could it distinguish between that and the fireball a nuclear device initiated just above the upper bound of the "no-tech zone"? What happens if we dump a couple of canisters of mustard gas at the castle gates? Or take Polyjuice Potion - how good exactly is the imitation? Would it get you past a fingerprint reader? Retina scanner? Voiceprint ID? DNA test? (And boy that one would open an ugly door - like, "I wish I could un-think that" ugly.)

We also don't know how common proficiency with any given spell or charm is in the Wizarding community, especially the ones with potentially game-changing effects: per the earlier citation, half of all adult Witches and Wizards can't effectivly use a Shield charm, which is a basic defensive utility they should have been taught in school. Shapeshifting - whether as an Animagus or via Polyjuice Potion - is apparently so rare that nobody bothers to actually defend against it, despite recognizing the risks (hence the requirement that Animagi register with the Ministry). And the rarity of Invisibility is plot-critical several times over the series.

And of course, none of this ever mattered to Rowling, as far as I can tell. Worldbuilding played second fiddle to storytelling - and a distant second at that. There's no apparent system to magic in the setting beyond "what the plot requires right now."

TL;DR, we don't know how powerful magic really is in Harry Potter's world; too many variables are left undefined.

comicshorse

2012-06-06, 03:12 PM

And of course, none of this ever mattered to Rowling, as far as I can tell. Worldbuilding played second fiddle to storytelling - and a distant second at that. There's no apparent system to magic in the setting beyond "what the plot requires right now."

TL;DR, we don't know how powerful magic really is in Harry Potter's world; too many variables are left undefined.

Absolutely. We see this especialy with time controlling magic, somehting that would have massive effect on any society. Yet its casually introduced to help out with one plot and then off-handedly removed.

Friv

2012-06-06, 05:34 PM

Voldemort made it seem pretty easy.
I agree, they are not unrelated. However, I think it's pretty clear it's the other way around. Look at Tommy in school. He basically had a bunch of mudbloods eaten by a snake for kick'n'giggles. Also, hunting around in the girls bathroom for a magic slide and room. Not for anything else a creeper might do in there, but a magic, probably-nonexistant room, plus, he was otherwise a general psychopath(And a bad one. More like Ramsey than Roose). I mean, that doesn't quite sound to me like the model of ideal mental health
Really? There have been plenty of psycho dictators in the world, and plenty of mad wizards I have trouble believing that NONE of them would have done it. Plus, being invisible, incorporeal, and stupid for a decade tends not to be good for mental health.

I would have three comments to make on this.

1) It is worth noting that creating a horcrux seems to involve both being totally batcrap insane and being wildly powerful and talented, and the two don't mix well.

2) As crazy and nasty as Tom was, Voldemort is a whole other level. Now, it is entirely possible that this is just poor writing, but there were certainly suggestions that at least some, or possibly all, of that mania lay in how fractured Voldemort was.

3) Kind of a big one here. Voldemort was one of the strongest wizards in history, and he was working from centuries of research into horcruxes, and he was completely psychotic and thus the sort of person to make horcruxes... and he still messed the ritual up. He fractured his soul so badly that he made his final horcrux by mistake, killing himself. That many horcruxes was a disastrously bad plan.

Xondoure

2012-06-06, 07:09 PM

I would have three comments to make on this.

1) It is worth noting that creating a horcrux seems to involve both being totally batcrap insane and being wildly powerful and talented, and the two don't mix well.

2) As crazy and nasty as Tom was, Voldemort is a whole other level. Now, it is entirely possible that this is just poor writing, but there were certainly suggestions that at least some, or possibly all, of that mania lay in how fractured Voldemort was.

3) Kind of a big one here. Voldemort was one of the strongest wizards in history, and he was working from centuries of research into horcruxes, and he was completely psychotic and thus the sort of person to make horcruxes... and he still messed the ritual up. He fractured his soul so badly that he made his final horcrux by mistake, killing himself. That many horcruxes was a disastrously bad plan.

He was wandering into uncharted territories of magic yes, which is possibly not what you want to do when your soul is on the line. His sixth horcrux was only made when prophecy and love magic collided though, so that's admittedly kind of hard to predict.

Avilan the Grey

2012-06-07, 01:26 AM

Xondoure

2012-06-07, 02:28 AM

Well we do know for certain that present day teenagers are much better at magic than any that came before them, with very few exceptions (Voldemort in his prime, Dumbledore in his, maybe the founders of each student house). Of course this is because it is a series of books for young teenagers, I realize that. It DOES make every other wizard seem more or less inept, though. :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

I'm not sure where this comes from. Apart from Voldemort and Dumbledore Moody, Lupin, Mr. and Ms. Weasley, Kingsley, Snape, Mcgonagall, Flitwick, Slughorn, Bellatrix and Barty Crouch jr. are all portrayed as much more proficient than any of the students with magic, and there's never an implication that anyone other than Hermione shows any exceptional talent out of the primary three. Well, Harry for Defense Against the Dark Arts, but even then he was a long way from an Auror.