More Monking

[Bahamut Omega]

With all these Monk threads, I figured I'd throw one more out there.

Being annoying MAD, Monks need help. What do you all think about replacing any instance of using the monk's wisdom modifier to using their constitution modifier instead? This would apply for all things except their will save.

Therefore, their AC bonus comes from their Con modifier, their stunning fist improves based on Con (like every other freakin' monster's extraordinary ability), and quivering palm also improves based on Con. I'm sure there's a zillion alternates where more things would be applicable, but the long and short is that if it drew from Wis before, it now draws from Con.

I kind of like this notion in that it creates a completely martial character (in the sense that only the physical stats are critical) who is intended to counter casters. The fix is far from perfect, but I think it's a start. I think if I were to go further, Diamond Soul's bonus would be, "...gain spell resistance equal to 10+monk level+Con modifier...," and get it sooner.

Thoughts?

[SSGoW]

Still MAD but I think in a good way.

You could make a str > con > dex > int wis cha build and still be decent .

Or swap dex and str for a bit of fun. Or just for crap and.giggles boost con, dex, and wis and go Monk 1/Swordsage 2 and be a halfling for wis to dex. Pump all 3 and be nigh unhittable (dex, con, wis to AC), dex + feat (+4) + yondellas senses (+ wis) to initiative. Go first and be hard to hit (touch and FF too).

Plus you know your HP won't be to bad... Which is always a plus...

Give them Improved Toughness as a bonus feat just to show how healthy their bodies are.

[Namfuak]

An alternative would be to allow monks to add their wisdom bonus to their health as well as their constitution bonus. And give them a d10 HD for kicks. And increase their BAB to full, can't forget about that.

[eggs]

Until the actual limitations of the class are addressed, fiddling with its numbers isn't going to fix the class. That means increasing mobility, penetrating common defenses, resisting common attacks, and providing a variety of attack options.

Once that's dealt with, you'll be in a position to assess whether this change helps. But without addressing those underlying issues, you're trying to fix a carwreck with a gluestick.

My kneejerk reaction is that I don't like it flavor-wise, even if it is a straight power increase.

[Bahamut Omega]

Until the actual limitations of the class are addressed, fiddling with its numbers isn't going to fix the class. That means increasing mobility, penetrating common defenses, resisting common attacks, and providing a variety of attack options.

Once that's dealt with, you'll be in a position to assess whether this change helps. But without addressing those underlying issues, you're trying to fix a carwreck with a gluestick.

My kneejerk reaction is that I don't like it flavor-wise, even if it is a straight power increase.

What do you consider limitations of the class? I feel monks have a lot more practical options than, say a fighter. I have to ask that you restrict your response to core materials as anything thereafter couldn't have been considered when the class was conceived.

Bear in mind, my view of the monk is a caster killer. They have a lot of skills which enable them to catch up to a spellcaster, particularly arcane casters, and deliver a pretty brutal beatdown. My goal isn't to make them able to stand toe to toe with a fighter nor is it to make them be able to cast spells, I don't believe that was ever the intent of the class.

I would strongly condone removing the alignment restriction. I have never agreed with alignment restrictions for core classes. I feel their purpose is to be accessible to all, not to only those with a certain ethos.

Regarding flavor, I think the original intent was that monk's react by instinct to incoming attacks and thus are able to avoid them more easily. If I simply replace that they react due to years of training and muscle memory I think I can push my argument for using their Con modifier through.

[Doug Lampert]

Bear in mind, my view of the monk is a caster killer. They have a lot of skills which enable them to catch up to a spellcaster, particularly arcane casters, and deliver a pretty brutal beatdown. My goal isn't to make them able to stand toe to toe with a fighter nor is it to make them be able to cast spells, I don't believe that was ever the intent of the class.

Arcane casters have fly, monks don't. Arcane casters can be invisible, monks can't see through this. Arcane casters can have Mirror Image (quickened at high level), even if the monk finds them he almost always misses without true seeing, which, being a monk, he doesn't get. Arcane casters can have other miss chances, stacked, which the monk can't get and can't really counter. Arcane casters get teleport before the monk gets Dimension Door once per day. At low to mid levels expeditious retreat beats the monk's enhanced movement.

Monk's have no way to apply a dimensional anchor, they can't apply antimagic field.

I can keep going. Basically a monk's "caster killer" abilities are grossly inferior to the caster killer abilities of an actual caster.

THOSE are the fundamental weaknesses of the class, they can all be fixed with gear, but that's gear that casters don't need, so they spend that money on something useful.

[Mithril Leaf]

It's called the Fist Of The Forest PrC. Complete Champion IIRC.

[eggs]

What do you consider limitations of the class? I feel monks have a lot more practical options than, say a fighter. I have to ask that you restrict your response to core materials as anything thereafter couldn't have been considered when the class was conceived.
There are two layers of limitations.

Limitations it faces compared to other noncasting melee classes:

Low damage - The Monk has high base fist damage, but that's expensive to enhance, so it typically lags behind other melee classes in straight damage output. It has flurry of blows, but the lack of strength multiplier and the low weapon damage make it a struggle to keep up with full BA classes. Its low per-attack damage and low BA make its standard action attacks very weak.
Weak control - The Monk has the feats for grappling and disarming, but its low BA makes it worse at either of those than full BA classes (which already have a hard time using these well). It has Improved Trip, but its weapon selection makes it bad at tripping. It doesn't use reach weapons well, so it threatens half the range of other classes.
The one unique offensive option the Monk does have is Stunning Fist, which is hardly redeeming, due to difficult application (melee range, targets full AC and highest save), common immunity and noncrippling effect (losing a round sucks, but the Monk still has to disable the target for it to translate into a victory).


And limitations it faces as a non-casting melee class:

Offensive versatility - The class is only able to attack the AC and Fortitude defenses, and its only fight-ending effect is HP damage.
Offensive power - The Monk exists in the same game as the Eldritch Knight with Polymorph and the Druid who summons 15 HD Outsiders at ECL 13.
Mobility - Monks have high move speeds, but they don't have a way to deal with nonstandard movement (flight, climb, burrow, swim), or battlefield control effects (at least until ECL 19).
Shut down by common defenses - Flight and other movement skills were already mentioned, but invisibility, displacement, mirror image, any source of plant/undead/construct type, freedom of movement and phantom steed will all shut down the Monk's main attacks. So will things like contingencies and immediate action defenses


Consolidating stats or otherwise bumping up numbers might help with the prior set, but the latter are typically the bigger issues, and will leave the Monk as useless as ever.

Here's a quick grocery list of effects that the Monk should really have (not all-inclusive):
Level-appropriate weapon enhancements on fists (by buying permanent enhancements, working enhancements into the class, permitting temporary free/swift action self-buffs, or whatever else)
Flight (the Monk's already magical, and it wouldn't be out of place, given the wuxia origin of most of its powers)
See Invisibility/True Seeing/Blindsight (with limited durations or uses, they keep invisible things invisible until the players know they're there)
Ability to target multiple defenses with encounter-ending attacks.
If the Monk's going to remain a class with a focus on combat maneuvers (Trip, Grapple, etc.), it needs abilities and bonuses to be better at them than a Warrior who just happened to grab the feats.
Ability to maneuver around walls and grapples at lower levels (temporary incorporeality, practical teleportation)
Level-appropriate damage/debuffs on a full attack (may happen on its own once the above are resolved)
Level-appropriate damage/debuffs against enemies who've taken a couple steps backward (by increasing standard action effectiveness eg. with Flurry bonuses, by permitting free/swift movement, or by giving its attacks some nasty rider effects)


A surprising number of those can be solved by saying "Built-in Ancestral Relic on the Unarmed Strikes, plus Wisdom-based Bard casting from appropriate spells on the Cleric and Ranger lists," but I'm sure you can think of something more unique and creative.

[Togo]

Flight is a problem, but it's a problem for all classes except wizard and sorceror. It's typically solved by gear, and I don't see that the monk needs special work in this respect.

Invisibility isn't as effective as you might think. A monk with high spot and listen can pinpoint such a spellcaster with comparatively little effort, unless they are using silent and stilled spells. That said, some form of limited invisibility detection is a typical purchase for my monks, so I suppose you could add it as a class ability.

Similarly, a lot of the miss chance problems, and mirror image, can be partly solved by blind fighting. It's not a like a monk is short on attacks, after all. The protection concealment provides from AOO is more of a problem, and the solutions are non-core.

Adding a decent tripping weapon to the monk special weapons seems a trivial change. I don't particuarly see the need, since you don't need a weapon to trip with, but if you want to add a reach tripping weapon to the monk list, that seems a good idea.

Monks are better than full BA classes at grappling, because they not only get the basic grappling feats, but also special abilities unique to monks (which are in the rules on grappling, not in the rules on monks.)

Monks need options against plants, undead and constructs, just as rogues do. Use some of the same ideas here?

If you really want a monk that's good at manoevres, take a leaf out of the marshal class, and let them add their wisdom (or something else) to their grapple checks, trips checks, disarm checks, and so on, as per the marshal's arts of war minor aura.

I'd suggest adding disarm, either as a bonus feat, or having monk 8 as an alternative prerequisite. Disarming monks can, with a quick flurry, simply strip the character of useful items.

Some form of melee-only targeted dispel magic effect might be helpful too, if that's the route you want to go down.

Im' not convinced we need more options for enchanting fists. Several classes use magic weapons, and prestige classes exist already for monks that want to go down that route.

[Bahamut Omega]

I have to agree with the invisibility issue. Relying on high spot and listen checks is unreasonable as it consumes a lot of skill points which monks also need for skills like climb, jump, balance, etc. and they don't get enough skill points as it is. I think the idea of giving a Monk Blindsense 30' makes sense, perhaps at 3rd level (when casters get invisibility). After a few more levels it improves to 60' (perhaps around 6th), after a few more levels it becomes blindsight (9th level) which improves another 10' every 2 class levels afterwards. I don't think this is unreasonable given the class' theme. This doesn't completely mitigate rogues' ability to hide, since the abilities require line of effect to work, so being hidden behind a wall is an effective counter, but simply being invisible and within range won't work for a caster.

As for the flight issue, if you make abundant step happen sooner (around 6th level) and tweak it so that it functions more like the shadowdancer's shadow jump ability (thus limited multiple uses a day) and allow the character to activate the ability with a move action instead of a standard action, that would help significantly to mitigate a wizard's flight.

Overall, I don't think the BAB needs to increase for the monk's attacks. They're not meant to be able to go toe to toe with a fighter whether it's in combat maneuvers or straight fighting, if that's what's happening, the monk is better off running away. With their BAB what it is, I think they could regularly defeat a spellcaster in a grapple.

One final tweak, as an 8th level ability, monk's get an ability called Dispelling Touch, which can be used once per day for every 2 monk levels the character has. As a standard action, a monk can make a single attack against the target's touch AC, which if it connects casts a targeted Dispel Magic effect on the target with a caster level equal to the monk's level. There is no caster level cap on this effect, so a 25th level monk's Dispelling Fist adds 25 to the check. The purpose of this is to blow away a wizard's buffs that might've otherwise allowed them to overpower the monk.

[Larkas]

I know it's not 3.5, but PF's Brass Knuckles (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedGear.html#brass-knuckles) can't be recommended enough. It solves all the monk's weapon problems while using its own Unarmed Strike damage when hitting with it.

About the flying, I'd do something as allow the monk to jump a distance of Jump check x monk level, ignore falling damage and, at later levels, land on any solid object regardless of the object's mass and support and not making said object fall faster than it would. Uber-jumping monk landing on a leaf floating midair, anyone? Ehm, maybe this solution is a bit TOO wuxia in intent, but I like the flavor more than simply flying :smallsmile:

[Bahamut Omega]

I looked at the link you provided, Larkas, and I'm not sure what's so great about the brass knuckles. It seems the only advantage of them is being able to lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but monks can already do that.

[Larkas]

They are a WEAPON. Hence, they can be made of Cold Iron, Silver and Adamantine, and receive the same properties as any other weapon, without the need of an item slot to do so. Besides, they are very cheap.

[Bahamut Omega]

Ah, I see what you're getting at.

[eggs]

Flight is a problem, but it's a problem for all classes except wizard and sorceror.

You're right. The Monk is not unique in its problems. But that doesn't stop them from being problems. Similarly, the existence of certain band-aids that individual builds can use to address specific limitations do not fix the class - not every Monk has Pierce Magical Concealment, and the ones that do have it at the opportunity cost of 3 feats that might make them less inefficient when they are able to attack things.

On the monk's special grapple abilities, you're going to have to help me out. The only reference I'm seeing to the Monk in the grapple description is a statement that the class gets to use its unarmed strike ability as normal. Am I missing something?

But the best non-magical core grapplers are still hopelessly inept at high levels, even with modifiers 9-10 points higher than most straightclassed monks will achieve. The Wisdom bonus you suggest could boost the Monk up to or above full BA classes in terms of disarm/grapple bonuses, and would do so in a way that scales from a small bonus to a large one with level - I think it's a pretty good idea.

[Bahamut Omega]

eggs, I think I'm misunderstanding your grappling issues. I don't feel that monks should be better in a straight up fight than a fighter, grappling or not. They should be better than a wizard especially at grappling. Why should they have a BAB that's equal to their class levels?

[Namfuak]

eggs, I think I'm misunderstanding your grappling issues. I don't feel that monks should be better in a straight up fight than a fighter, grappling or not. They should be better than a wizard especially at grappling. Why should they have a BAB that's equal to their class levels?

1. They get iterative attacks faster and get more of them, as opposed to having to resort to flurry of blows to even be able to hit the enemy as many times as a straight fighter.

2. BAB increases your grapple modifier. This way, their BAB to grapple is twice that of a wizard, not 1.5.

[eggs]

eggs, I think I'm misunderstanding your grappling issues. I don't feel that monks should be better in a straight up fight than a fighter, grappling or not. They should be better than a wizard especially at grappling. Why should they have a BAB that's equal to their class levels?
You're probably right - stripping away the realities of the system, the ideal Monk probably shouldn't be better in a straight fight than the ideal Fighter.

But I use the comparison with the Fighter because in the context of the 3e system, the Fighter is a very poor grappler, and due to its BAB, the Monk is still worse (while its feats and class features give it the impression of a class that should be competent).

I think the Monk should be good at grappling both because it's presented like a decent grappler (being the unarmed specialist, getting the bonus feat, getting a shoutout in the grapple description) and because it would be really cool if the guy in sandals could walk up to a dragon, grab its cheeks, and then somehow pin the thing.

I agree that conceptually, I'd prefer the Monk not to have full BA, but I don't think that means it shouldn't have other abilities to make up for that deficiency - it's still a frontline fighter, without the skills or abilities to pass in a more utility-oriented role.

Specializing in grappling casters is a really sticky proposition, given the sheer number of tools the specialist has to pray that the caster hasn't prepared. Teleports, blinks, polymorphs, greases and freedom of movement all shut down the strategy even if it is successful. (For all the flak Pathfinder gets over its monk, its Tetori Monk
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) archetype is a good - if somewhat slow - example of how caster-grappling should work, if it's supposed to be the monk's schtick.)

[Bahamut Omega]

Well the Dispelling Touch ability (see above) was intended to be my proposed counter to most of those grapple counters. A wizard could prepare for a grappling session with a monk by casting a few spells to buff himself, but one application of Dispelling Touch and they're all gone, effectively wasted spells and thus resources.

Initially, I wanted the ability to be at-will, but it could be abused way too easily if that were the case.

Regarding grappling with Fighters. I think the most important thing to remember with grappling is damage output. Both are using their unarmed strike damage. The fighter's unarmed strike is 1d3 plus strength, a monk's minimum is 1d6 plus strength. At 1st level, a monk would rape a fighter in a grappling contest. At 5th level, the fighter might win an extra grapple check or two, but those that wins deal only a pittance of damage compared to the monk now dealing 1d8 plus strength. The damage disparity only grows from there.

Please don't forget with grappling, the bonus keeps reducing. So if a 10th level fighter has a grapple bonus of +20, his iterative grapple checks are +20 and +15, but are still opposed by the full grapple check of the monk (which could practically be +20 as well). The monk gets the benefit of flat out just making more attacks at that level. The more you roll the dice, the more chances you have to win a check and thus deal damage.

[Namfuak]

To be honest, I don't understand why you need to reduce a monk's BAB to make sure it is less effective at frontline fighting than a fighter. Assuming both are standing there and attacking each other, a fighter will still generally win against a monk, unless there is a large disparity in optimization. Even with full BAB, fighters and monks still do around the same number of attacks (depending on whether the fighter uses two-weapon fighting). In fact, I just noticed that if the fighter uses TWF against a monk's FoB, he gets to add 1/2xstr to the off hand attack and 1 1/2xstr to the rest of his attacks, while the monk gets only 1xstr for all of his attacks. After they each gain an iterative attack, this is much in favor of the fighter, especially since he has only 2 stats to worry about rather than 4.

I guess that my opinion here is that monks are fast, agile, and well-trained. Part of being well-trained is being accurate - they run in, strike hard and true, and get out, or they opt to grapple an opponent. I usually imagine that a monk would be hitting someone a lot with his attacks, so maybe something to change would be to allow flurry of blows to allow an extra attack per iterative attack, but explicitly disallow it from working with TWF.

[limejuicepowder]

I think it would make more sense thematically for everything to be based on wis - hit points, skills, etc. This would better reflect the iconic old man who is still insanely tough and resilient. Really, considering the rest of the class, it would not be out of line to allow EVERYTHING to key off wisdom (though it might make for some broken multiclassing).

[Togo]

Even with full BAB, fighters and monks still do around the same number of attacks (depending on whether the fighter uses two-weapon fighting)....

... I usually imagine that a monk would be hitting someone a lot with his attacks, so maybe something to change would be to allow flurry of blows to allow an extra attack per iterative attack, but explicitly disallow it from working with TWF.

If you want a lot of attacks, why not just have a monk two-weapon fighting?

[HCL]

I like the Halfling Racial Substitution levels that replace flurry with skirmish. d10 hit die, full BAB, and allowing padded armor also can help. But the core issue is really that class features past 6 really don't add anything.

[Andion Isurand]

I think it would make more sense thematically for everything to be based on wis - hit points, skills, etc. This would better reflect the iconic old man who is still insanely tough and resilient. Really, considering the rest of the class, it would not be out of line to allow EVERYTHING to key off wisdom (though it might make for some broken multiclassing).

I could see an ability like this, similar to the Factotum's Brains over Brawn ability...

At first level, a monk may add their wisdom bonus to strength and dexterity-based checks and skill checks, with a maximum value equal to their class level.

[Bahamut Omega]

I'm not arguing reducing the monk's BAB, more than anything I'm arguing to leave it alone. Monks aren't meant to be able to go toe to toe against a fighter, it's not what their purpose is. I contest that their purpose is to be able to evenly counter divine casters and crush arcane casters, hence their BAB is equal to the former's and greater than the latter's.

[Namfuak]

If you want a lot of attacks, why not just have a monk two-weapon fighting?

I assume you mean besides the fact that there is no simple way to make FoB and TWF work together well. And as I said, a monk only gets one more attack than a fighter (assuming we are talking about a straight monk and a straight fighter) at best, with 2/3 as much of a bonus from strength (assuming the fighter is using a 2-handed weapon) and at a -2 penalty to each attack. If instead the fighter takes twf, his attacks are sightly worse than a monk's (I apologize, I think I made a mistake in my original post), but he can use any weapon he wants, and still often has one more attack in his full attack than a monk does.

I was thinking, one way to help monks would be to give them the swordsage schools and manuever progression, no change to BAB or any of the other abilities.

[eggs]

Regarding grappling with Fighters.
I think this is the source of our disagreement. Grapple-based damage is very low, even with high unarmed strike damage. In higher-optimization environments, the main contribution associated with grappling is the "grappled" status, which denies its target's movement and battlefield control presence, opens it to sneak attacks, and drastically narrows its spell options. Applying that status is not something that many characters can do reliably, and relies on the grapple checks where the Fighter performs poorly, and the Monk does even worse.

The Dispelling Touch idea isn't a bad one, but as a standard action it won't be useful: the Monk lands the debuff with its turn, the Wizard spends its turn teleporting away, or turning invisible and walking off somewhere, or flying up out of reach, or doing one of those and also casting offensively, and the Monk's left back where it started. If it's a rider effect on an attack roll, it could be useful (so the monk would hit with its fist, trigger Dispelling Touch, then trigger Scorpion's Grasp or Improved Grab and catch the caster in a grapple). But it would still need a way to ignore concealment-based defenses in its delivery (build increasing-radius blindsight into the class, or tie it into a Combat Awareness kind of ability?).

[Togo]

I assume you mean besides the fact that there is no simple way to make FoB and TWF work together well.

There isn't? Why not? What's wrong with weilding a monk weapon in your off hand? I mean your base damage is lower, but it's still extra attacks.


And as I said, a monk only gets one more attack than a fighter (assuming we are talking about a straight monk and a straight fighter) at best, with 2/3 as much of a bonus from strength (assuming the fighter is using a 2-handed weapon) and at a -2 penalty to each attack.

Why can't the monk use a two-handed weapon, if it would be advantageous for him to do so? And the monk's attack penalty for flurry (which he only has to use if it would be to his advantage) goes away at mid level.

Compare final BAB fighter vs monk
20/15/10/5
15/15/15/10/5

You can do an analysis to see whether the monk's higher base damage makes up for the fighter fighting two-handed, but the monk can, in theory, use a weapon two-handed for all those attacks in exactly the same way as the fighter, and there's nothing stopping his weapon being just as enchanted. You lose a bit on base damage in quarterstaff versus greatsword, but the extra attack at full BAB makes up for it.

The reason why monks typically do less damage is more to do with the fighter's freedom to focus on Str, enchanted weapons, and damage-causing feats. That, and extra attacks are no use if you're not full attacking in the first place - an annoying restriction for a mobile character.

I think some kind of manoevre progression, or just extra feats, at higher levels would help a great deal, since the higher level abilities are, like many base classes, underwhelming. Or maybe we need a decent prestige class?

[Togo]

I think this is the source of our disagreement. Grapple-based damage is very low, even with high unarmed strike damage.

Well the point is that the monk can fight normally in a grapple, while his opponent often can't. If his normal full attack isn't damaging, that's a separate problem.


In higher-optimization environments, the main contribution associated with grappling is the "grappled" status, which denies its target's movement and battlefield control presence, opens it to sneak attacks, and drastically narrows its spell options. Applying that status is not something that many characters can do reliably, and relies on the grapple checks where the Fighter performs poorly, and the Monk does even worse.

Depends on your target. At low level, grapple is unreliable. At higher level, the disparity between the grapple mods of different encounters grows. Grapple becomes more and more reliable against some targets, and increasiningly impractical against others, while the middle ground shrinks over time.

I knew one monk player who tried to get monsters to swallow him whole, on the basis that that was the one place he could full attack from where they couldn't hit him back. I was never tempted to copy him.


The Dispelling Touch idea isn't a bad one, but as a standard action it won't be useful:

Agreed, make it a touch attack, that can triggered by a normal attack or be a separate touch attack. It shouldn't trigger on a miss, or else 1/day won't cut it. Or you could make stunning fist a class feature instead of an optional feat, and then treat this as a higher level upgrade to stunning fist. Incorporate pain touch, paralysing touch etc. If you want to go the martial arts styles route, you could have several sets of progressions. The chi-basd progression goes stunning fist, pain touch, dispelling touch, paralysing touch, while another progression might be imp trip, imp disarm, etc, and a third a series of grapple-based abilities, and so on.


But it would still need a way to ignore concealment-based defenses in its delivery (build increasing-radius blindsight into the class, or tie it into a Combat Awareness kind of ability?).

Is there any reason why monks should get special abilities to defeat concealment, other than the fact that using concealment is an effective tactic?

[limejuicepowder]

Is there any reason why monks should get special abilities to defeat concealment, other than the fact that using concealment is an effective tactic?

I absolutely think there is precedent for a blindsight type ability. How many martial arts movies can you think of that at some point involve putting a blindfold on and fighting/training/showing off? Right off the top of my head there is
-Star Wars (luke's training)
-bloodsport (blinded in final fight)
-fist of legend (jet li's friendly fight with another master)
-elektra (her master is straight up blind)

This only applies of course if you are modeling the monk class after iconic ideas of martial artists. I'm also not sure how much blindsight would do - it would definitely get past invisibility and hiding, but what else?

[Togo]

This only applies of course if you are modeling the monk class after iconic ideas of martial artists. I'm also not sure how much blindsight would do - it would definitely get past invisibility and hiding, but what else?

I'm all for blindsense, and blindfighting, since that's what martial arts films show. Bindsight seems too far. I certainly see no reason why we should a step even further than blindsight and create an ability that gets past hiding, when none exists in the game at the moment.

The monk needs to balance with other classes. Maybe these ideas would work better in a prestige class.

[Larkas]

There isn't? Why not? What's wrong with weilding a monk weapon in your off hand? I mean your base damage is lower, but it's still extra attacks.

Why do that? You can make off-hand unarmed strikes; unarmed strikes are always considered light weapons.


Why can't the monk use a two-handed weapon, if it would be advantageous for him to do so? And the monk's attack penalty for flurry (which he only has to use if it would be to his advantage) goes away at mid level.

You're missing the point... Specifically:


When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

So you may be using a Quarterstaff all you want, you will never get the same returns from Strength as a fighter with a Greatsword would. The Quarterstaff is actually the only monk weapon usable with Power Attack, short of Unarmed Strike, but you're better off fighting bare handed in this case. Actually, Unarmed Strike is one of only two "light weapons" that can receive the bonus from Power Attack to damage (and natural weapons don't lend themselves to iteratives, so...), so at least monks can Power Attack with TWF better than most. Now, if only it had full BAB...

[Bahamut Omega]

Grapple based damage may be low (and I disagree with that opinion, but that's another issue), but being able to keep the grappled condition on an enemy opens them up to all those attacks you mentioned, thereby making it a great tactic for a team.

The reason I wanted Dispelling Touch to be a standard action is because ending a plethora of buffs is no more than what a wizard can do with a standard action. I'm going to cut off the argument that they can quicken a dispel magic, but that's only true if they can cast 7th level spells and even then they're limited to a +10 bonus, which after awhile isn't enough to handle opposing spells. Finally, I stated that dispelling touch is usable once a day for every 2 monk levels possessed. Given that the proposed level for this ability was 8th, that means a monk can use it 4 times a day.

Don't forget, this works on a ton of things. Polymorph into a hydra, buffed yourself with bull's strength, and added fly as well. *Smack!* Back to normal. Cast freedom of movement before the fight,

Please also see the other ability revisions I proposed, the dispelling touch idea doesn't work without considering the whole. Suppose the wizard teleports away, then the monk can abundant step to catch up with them as a move action. If the wizard's in sight, the monk can probably just run up to them.

If the concern is that the wizard will teleport from the fight completely, well that sucks but it's what they do. Monks can run really fast and probably escape most fights if they want to without a lot of things being able to practically stop them. The monk could've stopped that possibility from even happening with a stunning fist instead of dispelling touch, but some decisions are hard at higher levels.

I still haven't seen a need to increase their BAB. A monk being able to grapple a dragon isn't going to practically happen, honestly PCs aren't expected to be able to do that. If you can do that on command then you can solve almost all your problems with grappling. What a monk can do is reliably grapple a wizard and have an even chance of grappling a cleric. Where I take issue it that a druid is pretty much ungrapplable (patent pending) due to wild shape, I would support a specific expansion on the dispelling touch ability to make it work against supernatural abilities like this, but the phrasing would need to be carefully done.