Help me make a character that will work with my group

[ahenobarbi]

I'm playing with (there are some differeces in XP):
- Orc Fighter (4).
- Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
- Human Aristocrat 1 / Wizard (Generalist) 4

I wanted to play Illusionist doing some battlefield control (Images) and minor buffing, later blast with Shadowcraft Mage.

But now I think it will not work. I will not be able to do any BFC because BSFs will just go into melee no matter what. I played with them for some time so I should have known. Only I forgot. And yesterday fight reminded me (spoiler).

Yesterday we fought Mimic (it had a bit more HP than average - our DM actually rolls HP for enemies). It took us about 12 rounds. BSFs would die if they did not drink about 1000gp worth of Cure Serious Wounds potions (priced as CMW potions in this group). BSFs decided that they should go into meele-or-grapple with mimic so the other Wizard did most damage. I buffed a bit and felt like a waste of space.

Ah also melee guys don't care that they both delivered about 20HP of damage in 12 rounds.

So I think I will make a new character. I want it to be competent. And not take all the action for it. I don't have to worry about the other wizard becoming obsolete. Wizard's player prefers fluff over crunch but makes sure to get enough crunch.

What are your suggestions to deal with the problem guys? My first idea is in spoiler but I am very interested in suggestions.


We are playing in Fearun
No: Libris Mortis, Dragon zine, Psionics
No other campaign settings
Wands don't need UMD
We are 1-2 levels behind WBL (that is at creation I'm at it but later we get less).



Solution (build that should may work).
Strongheart Hafling
Wizard 4
Focused Conjurer, banned Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy
Replace Familiar with Abrupt Jaunt
Feats (lvl):
Extend Spell(1)
Scribe Scroll(1)
Iron Will (1) (4 Incantantrix l8r)
Sculpt Spell (3)

Stats
Str: 9
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

I will prepare:

Buffs (Mage Armor, Alter Self, Enlarge Person, NErveskitter)
BFS/SOS (Grease, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics)
Summon Monster 1, just in case.


Later I'll go Incantantrix.

[Waker]

So you want this new character to be a Battlefield controller? Going with Conjurer is the way to go about this. If you decide to go the Summoner route, you may want to consider getting Rapid Summons from UA instead of Abrupt Jaunt.
If you want to make your melee compatriots semi-useful, you might instead go Transmuter and eventually PrC into War Weaver from Heroes of Battle.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A (Cloistered) Cleric with the Gnome and/or Illusion domains can do Shadowcraft Mage just fine. Get the Trickery domain and DMM: Heighten and you can go Cloistered Cleric 3/ Shadowcraft Mage via being able to cast Heightened Dark Way, but you'll need to use flaws. Definitely get Earth Spell, and a pile of Night Sticks. Use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for Illusion or Gnome for spontaneous DMM: Heightened Silent Images, and take Residual Magic (CM) asap.

[Gnome Alone]

What does BSF mean?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What does BSF mean?

Big Stupid Fighter.



As for your listed crowd control spells (Grease, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics), it looks like you forgot Web, and Wall of Smoke is considerably better than Obscuring Mist especially since you can cast it across opponents' squares to force an immediate save. If you want to pull some shenanigans, Wall of Smoke could hypothetically be cast horizontally, covering one 10 ft. square/level as a Stinking Cloud Lite, forcing opponents to drop prone to avoid the effects of passing through it.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Personally I'd suggest going for a druid. It sounds like you guys could use a healer, the druid can do that, while doing some battle field control and going into melee if needed. (Besides, while the ranger may technically be a divine caster, it's not exactly a full caster. :p)

As for build, ehh, have fun with it? Considering how potentially powerful the class is I don't think anyone will mind if it's not super optimized, just make sure you have melee survivability if you do go for that.

EDIT: I know it has nothing to do with what the OP was considering, but I jsut threw it out there as food for thought in case he does decide to go for something completely different.

[Acanous]

It seems that your group is low-op. Following this advice is going to have you outshine the entire rest of the party, while only the generalist will be capable of catching back up to you.

Personally, I reccommend you go Beguiler. You'll get skills that seem to be seriously lacking, while having a decent repitoire of spells.
Alternatively, go Cleric, because this party lacks heals.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It seems that your group is low-op. Following this advice is going to have you outshine the entire rest of the party, while only the generalist will be capable of catching back up to you.

Personally, I reccommend you go Beguiler. You'll get skills that seem to be seriously lacking, while having a decent repitoire of spells.
Alternatively, go Cleric, because this party lacks heals.

Alternatively, go Beguiler with Arcane Disciple (healing domain) and have all the Cure spells on your list, with the ability to cast them spontaneously with more spells/day than a Cleric.

Then, buy a wand.

[ahenobarbi]

So you want this new character to be a Battlefield controller? Going with Conjurer is the way to go about this. If you decide to go the Summoner route, you may want to consider getting Rapid Summons from UA instead of Abrupt Jaunt.
If you want to make your melee compatriots semi-useful, you might instead go Transmuter and eventually PrC into War Weaver from Heroes of Battle.

Buffing won't help if they decide that they want to drink potions while getting hit a lot (happens most times if they get hit) :smallannoyed:


A (Cloistered) Cleric with the Gnome and/or Illusion domains can do Shadowcraft Mage just fine. Get the Trickery domain and DMM: Heighten and you can go Cloistered Cleric 3/ Shadowcraft Mage via being able to cast Heightened Dark Way, but you'll need to use flaws. Definitely get Earth Spell, and a pile of Night Sticks. Use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for Illusion or Gnome for spontaneous DMM: Heightened Silent Images, and take Residual Magic (CM) asap.

Thanks for that one - maybe this way I will be able to keep bits of my original idea. Ah I forgot to mention: no flaws allowed.


As for your listed crowd control spells (Grease, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics), it looks like you forgot Web, and Wall of Smoke is considerably better than Obscuring Mist especially since you can cast it across opponents' squares to force an immediate save. If you want to pull some shenanigans, Wall of Smoke could hypothetically be cast horizontally, covering one 10 ft. square/level as a Stinking Cloud Lite, forcing opponents to drop prone to avoid the effects of passing through it.

Thanks for reminding me about wall of smoke and web.


Personally I'd suggest going for a druid. It sounds like you guys could use a healer, the druid can do that, while doing some battle field control and going into melee if needed. (Besides, while the ranger may technically be a divine caster, it's not exactly a full caster. :p)

As for build, ehh, have fun with it? Considering how potentially powerful the class is I don't think anyone will mind if it's not super optimized, just make sure you have melee survivability if you do go for that.

EDIT: I know it has nothing to do with what the OP was considering, but I jsut threw it out there as food for thought in case he does decide to go for something completely different.

There are 2 problems with druid:

I could easily make melee feel completly useles (animal companion, summons and meself)
I don't like the fluff.



It seems that your group is low-op. Following this advice is going to have you outshine the entire rest of the party, while only the generalist will be capable of catching back up to you.

Personally, I reccommend you go Beguiler. You'll get skills that seem to be seriously lacking, while having a decent repitoire of spells.
Alternatively, go Cleric, because this party lacks heals.

Melee guys are low-op but think they are the most awesome melee-ers ever. And beg DM for powerful opponents. So I thought I'd get a character that will make hard fights easy for them (and they will enjoy because they did all the "real" work of dealing damage).

Where can I find Beguiler? I'd like to take a look at the class, just in case.

[ahenobarbi]

Alternatively, go Beguiler with Arcane Disciple (healing domain) and have all the Cure spells on your list, with the ability to cast them spontaneously with more spells/day than a Cleric.

Then, buy a wand.

Anyone can use wands, no need to have a half rank in UMD. So I think there really is no need for healer :smallsmile:

[Acanous]

I believe Beguiler is in Complete Scoundrel. Could be wrong on that, AFB.

The Healing Domain is a great idea, too.

[killianh]

I believe Beguiler is in Complete Scoundrel. Could be wrong on that, AFB.

The Healing Domain is a great idea, too.

Beguiler is in Players Handbook II

I would suggest an archivist personally. Healing, battle field control, and you can learn any divine spell basically. It's in heroes of horror

[Lonely Tylenol]

Anyone can use wands, no need to have a half rank in UMD. So I think there really is no need for healer :smallsmile:

Is this a house rule in your game?

In that case, it's still useful to have: somebody who has the spell on their spell list automatically succeeds at using a wand without a check; somebody without one does (meaning if you had to draw a wand in combat, or use a Cure spell to stabilize, the absolute worst-case scenario, you wouldn't fail).

[ahenobarbi]

Beguiler is in Players Handbook II

I would suggest an archivist personally. Healing, battle field control, and you can learn any divine spell basically. It's in heroes of horror

I think Beguiler will not be able to make my melee teammates work. Archivist on the other hand... Yeah, it might be a good class if I'll grab good spells from all divine casters around I could be pretty good at [de]buffing & BFC.


Is this a house rule in your game?

In that case, it's still useful to have: somebody who has the spell on their spell list automatically succeeds at using a wand without a check; somebody without one does (meaning if you had to draw a wand in combat, or use a Cure spell to stabilize, the absolute worst-case scenario, you wouldn't fail).


Yes, we have a house rule on Wand usage.

Any one can use any wand. You have to know a command word (Identify/ Knowledge/ Magic Mart (tm) customer service told you) and it works. No UMD rolls, no failure chance.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yes, we have a house rule on Wand usage.

Any one can use any wand. You have to know a command word (Identify/ Knowledge/ Magic Mart (tm) customer service told you) and it works. No UMD rolls, no failure chance.

In that case, I would suggest Beguiler, and add that the benefits of Silent Image and others are limited only by your imagination. Unless your DM is the type to throw incredibly intuitive enemies your way, throwing up illusory walls will feel, to them, just like throwing up real walls.

[ahenobarbi]

In that case, I would suggest Beguiler, and add that the benefits of Silent Image and others are limited only by your imagination. Unless your DM is the type to throw incredibly intuitive enemies your way, throwing up illusory walls will feel, to them, just like throwing up real walls.

That's what I planned to do with my Illusionist. But after yesterday gaming session I realized that it will not work. Not because of the DM but because of melee guys.

Like when I made Mimic run around panicked because it was surrounded by illusionary flames they wouldn't get out of the flames (they made the save thanks to +4 bonus for knowing they are fake - I took care to have common obscure languages with them) and use bows (which the friggin have - and ranger even picked archery feats) to kill it fast & effectively. No they continued drink potion[s]/unglue your self/attack(or not)/get glued back.

[Acanous]

Your problem seems to be more with your fellows than with the actual balance of the party.
If you want to make a character that works WITH your party, examine the things your teammates lack, and choose a role designed to fill those gaps- such as Beguiler.
If you want to make a character that works WITHOUT your party, IE Druid, Archivist, Gnome Wizard/Master Specialist/Shadowcraft Mage/Shadowcrafter or /Incantatrix, go ahead and do that, but be advised that you are going to outperform your party and make them feel marginilized.

If this is an OOC thing, where you don't like how your teammates play, going with option 2 makes you the "Stop Having Fun" guy.
Consider talking to them OOC about this. Don't turn it into a contest.

[Lonely Tylenol]

That's what I planned to do with my Illusionist. But after yesterday gaming session I realized that it will not work. Not because of the DM but because of melee guys.

Like when I made Mimic run around panicked because it was surrounded by illusionary flames they wouldn't get out of the flames (they made the save thanks to +4 bonus for knowing they are fake - I took care to have common obscure languages with them) and use bows (which the friggin have - and ranger even picked archery feats) to kill it fast & effectively. No they continued drink potion[s]/unglue your self/attack(or not)/get glued back.

:smallannoyed:

I can see how that might cause problems.

Archivist works if you can get around the WBL considerations you posted in the OP. Being 1-2 levels behind WBL as a book-centric caster is a big deal when you're level 4 and have level 2 WBL. You'll actually *have* resources later on, but if the gap widens, you will probably be spending most of your money on the essentials. I couldn't give you an exact approximation of how this will go, but your mileage may vary. Either way, you're still an open-list full caster, so...

[ahenobarbi]

Your problem seems to be more with your fellows than with the actual balance of the party.
If you want to make a character that works WITH your party, examine the things your teammates lack, and choose a role designed to fill those gaps- such as Beguiler.
If you want to make a character that works WITHOUT your party, IE Druid, Archivist, Gnome Wizard/Master Specialist/Shadowcraft Mage/Shadowcrafter or /Incantatrix, go ahead and do that, but be advised that you are going to outperform your party and make them feel marginilized.

I want to play working with the party. And it seems to me that they lack:
1) Will to do anything but hitting enemies with weapons (even launching projectiles at enemies).
2) Mechanical adventage over enemies (damage output, modifiers etc.).

While I can not help them with 1) (I try talking OOC about this but... "Storm wind fallacy" I think you call this).

So I want character that will give them 2). Beguiler can't (or I can't see how). Conjurer or Archivist can.

Is my reasoning wrong?



If this is an OOC thing, where you don't like how your teammates play, going with option 2 makes you the "Stop Having Fun" guy.
Consider talking to them OOC about this. Don't turn it into a contest.

Definitely don't want that.

[Downysole]

Bard or Cleric for the buffing.

For bard, I suggest amulet of teamwork and aid another actions or badge of valor. Just remember that you can't wear both.

Cleric, well...it's a cleric. You can do whatever you want to. Maybe something with earth domain so you can do a lot of BFS spells. And maybe protection domain for AC buffs so that you never have to actually heal your party.

[Waker]

Just as a quick note, does your party realize that drinking a potion provokes an attack of opportunity?

[ahenobarbi]

Bard or Cleric for the buffing.

For bard, I suggest amulet of teamwork and aid another actions or badge of valor. Just remember that you can't wear both.

Cleric, well...it's a cleric. You can do whatever you want to. Maybe something with earth domain so you can do a lot of BFS spells. And maybe protection domain for AC buffs so that you never have to actually heal your party.

Hmm bard. May be funny (glibness :smallbiggrin:).

Thanks for another idea. When I started the thread I was thinking about god-style Wizard but wasn't sure if it will not be too powerful. Now I see there are some other possibilities out there.


Just as a quick note, does your party realize that drinking a potion provokes an attack of opportunity?

Yes. It was like

Fighter: Oh ranger is seriously wounded, I make him swallow the potion.
DM: Allright, Mimick gets to attack you.
(Some rolls later righter gets hit becomes unconscious, ranger gives fighter a potion (no opportunity attack this time))

[ThiagoMartell]

Your group looks not only low op but low tier. I'd advise playing a Beguiler or Bard and not optimizing too much.

[Waker]

Seeing more of what goes on with your party I would also vote for Bard. It's got good skills, the bardic music can buff the melee, you can fight a bit yourself and due to their unusual spell list you can use illusions (Shadowcraft Mage) and heal and buff (War Weaver). At low levels if you want to improve your spell list a bit you can take Lyrical Thaumaturge in Complete Mage and Sublime Chord at higher levels. Seeing as how you have a wizard and the fact that your friends are not that great at tactics, I'll suggest a build.
Gnome Bard 6/Lyrical Thaumaturge 1/War Weaver 5/Sublime Chord 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Lyrical Thaumaturge 2
The build is hardly gamebreaking (which is appropriate for your group), but he would have a decent number of spells to use (made better because War Weaver shares spells with others). Healing in combat isn't efficient, but if you can heal the party with one spell it might make them hesitate to waste their actions drinking a potion. Don't forget to take the Gnome Bard racial acfs.

[Unusual Muse]

I have a character that is quite fun to play: Archivist/Malconvoker focused on summoning. Need damage? Summon up some Fiendish Apes. Need BFC? Summon up some grapplers (Fiendish Monstrous Centipede?) that won't hamper your BSFs. And seriously: So... many... spells! Healing, damage, control... it's all in there.

EDIT: This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=k4imfhpr853e4i6burt5r0gf74&topic=289.0) thread would be helpful in this regard.

[ahenobarbi]

I have a character that is quite fun to play: Archivist/Malconvoker focused on summoning. Need damage? Summon up some Fiendish Apes. Need BFC? Summon up some grapplers (Fiendish Monstrous Centipede?) that won't hamper your BSFs. And seriously: So... many... spells! Healing, damage, control... it's all in there.

EDIT: This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=k4imfhpr853e4i6burt5r0gf74&topic=289.0) thread would be helpful in this regard.

This could be fun for me - but I'm afraid Fighter and Ranger will feel useless if my summons will do more than they do.

[ahenobarbi]

Seeing more of what goes on with your party I would also vote for Bard. It's got good skills, the bardic music can buff the melee, you can fight a bit yourself and due to their unusual spell list you can use illusions (Shadowcraft Mage) and heal and buff (War Weaver). At low levels if you want to improve your spell list a bit you can take Lyrical Thaumaturge in Complete Mage and Sublime Chord at higher levels. Seeing as how you have a wizard and the fact that your friends are not that great at tactics, I'll suggest a build.
Gnome Bard 5/Lyrical Thaumaturge 2/War Weaver 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Sublime Chord 3
The build is hardly gamebreaking (which is appropriate for your group), but he would have a decent number of spells to use (made better because War Weaver shares spells with others). Healing in combat isn't efficient, but if you can heal the party with one spell it might make them hesitate to waste their actions drinking a potion. Don't forget to take the Gnome Bard racial acfs.

Hmm. Maybe. Now I just need to think how would I play a bard (never did). And I don't have access to War Weaver so I'll have to replace it with something else.

[moritheil]

Buffing won't help if they decide that they want to drink potions while getting hit a lot (happens most times if they get hit) :smallannoyed:
...
Melee guys are low-op but think they are the most awesome melee-ers ever. And beg DM for powerful opponents. So I thought I'd get a character that will make hard fights easy for them (and they will enjoy because they did all the "real" work of dealing damage).

You know, there's something to be said for letting people learn the hard way how the system works. :smallbiggrin: More seriously, it sounds like what is hindering your fellow players is suboptimal choices in combat, not just in character selection. Don't you think that any one class that can make up for the idiocy of an entire party is by definition overpowered?

DMM: Persist Cleric (so you're not a pushover in melee, and the meleers can respect you) is probably what you're looking for.


Where can I find Beguiler? I'd like to take a look at the class, just in case.

PHBII

[ahenobarbi]

Don't you think that any one class that can make up for the idiocy of an entire party is by definition overpowered?

:smallbiggrin:

But if they don't feel useless that is ok, right?



DMM: Persist Cleric (so you're not a pushover in melee, and the meleers can respect you) is probably what you're looking for.


Banned.

[Waker]

Lacking War Weaver would change the build a bit. You could go with
Gnome Bard 6/Lyrical Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Lyrical Thaumaturge 4.
You would lose the buffing power of the War Weaver, but going this route would give you more flexibility as far as getting access to more Sorcerer/Wizard spells and spells per day.
Of course you could go with Sorcerer/Wizard over Bard, but at least this way you have better saves and access to healing spells. While Arcane Disciple does let you cast a few healing spells a day, it does have a rather low uses per day.

[Unusual Muse]

This could be fun for me - but I'm afraid Fighter and Ranger will feel useless if my summons will do more than they do.

Generally, summoned creatures are not going to be as tough as PCs... partly because they don't have as many hit points/feats/abilities, and partly because they are only around for a limited number of rounds (although Malconvokers have ways of extending this). I wouldn't worry about your fighters feeling overshadowed by your summoned creatures; the creatures are just *your* way of being a fighter. The nice thing about Archivist/Malconvoker is you have lots of other utility you can bring to the party as well. The other cool thing about summons is that, once you are high enough level, you can summon creatures with SLAs, which is a whole new level of utility... and fun. :smallsmile: