Wizard 20 vs Fighter 20. Melee only

[hushblade]

Can I wizard beat a fighter at its own game using its spells to augment how he swings a sword(or use natural attacks or the like) I'm curious to see people's opinions on this.

[Empedocles]

Just clarifying, you're basically asking if a wizard can augment himself to the point of being simply better at melee then the fighter? No summoning or movement or invisibility? Just self buffing?

[legomaster00156]

Undoubtedly, the answer here is yes.

[BladeofObliviom]

The simple answer is yes. At this level, a wizard is capable of stacking so many buffs that he or she could rather easily become nigh-impossible to hit, and capable of dealing impressive damage.

[hushblade]

@Vilpich: That'd be right.

[Larkas]

If you're asking about a duel, it will come to Initiative, really. If the Fighter is optimized, he can pretty much OHKO the Wizard. If he doesn't, though, things start to look grim...

If you're asking about damage potential only, sure. Look at Polymorph. Look at Cryohydra. Look at the Fighter crying in the corner with his shiny sword.

[Aharon]

Depends on sources, buffing time allowed and how many one-time ressources the fighter is allowed to burn on this fight.

For a single fight, a fighter 20 can essentially have anything a wizard has. Even without consumables, the fighters WBL can go part of the way to make him as effective as a wizard restricted to melee.

The fighter also is likely better at a few key fighting techniques (he will have the feats for effective charging, the wizard won't because he needs his slots for metamagic feats).

[Invader]

If the wizard is allowed to cast all his buffs before the start of the fight then he absolutely wins. The fighter wouldn't have a chance.

[Togo]

Also, are you banning the fighter from using antimagic effects?

[Crasical]

Why do people always cite the Cyrohydra as the preferred combat form for a polymorphed wizard, anyway? What's the benefit over a normal hydra, the privilege of taking more damage from fire attacks?

[Othesemo]

As previous posters have said, it depends entirely on buffing time. If the wizard has as long as he needs, absolutely.


Why do people always cite the Cyrohydra as the preferred combat form for a polymorphed wizard, anyway? What's the benefit over a normal hydra, the privilege of taking more damage from fire attacks?

The privilege of having a crap-ton of breath weapons usable simultaneously that will deal a fair chunk of damage even if the fighter makes all of his reflex saves, I think.

[Invader]

Also, are you banning the fighter from using antimagic effects?

If he allowed the fighter to use antimagic effects it would negate his entire question.

[Crasical]

The privilege of having a crap-ton of breath weapons usable simultaneously that will deal a fair chunk of damage even if the fighter makes all of his reflex saves, I think.

Reflex Saves, plural? I'd always read the elemental hydras as making one breath attack that did 3d6 per head, not a breath attack per head that did 3d6 damage.

[Libertad]

What resources are available?

Going by Core, a wizard can use greater invisibility, contingency, polymorph, and shapechange.

A wizard can transform itself into a big monster with multiple natural attacks, constrict, a huge grapple modifier, and maybe a deadly poison. Additionally, the Wizard can also take a form with a fly speed and increased reach to outmaneuver the fighter.

A core wizard can beat a core fighter at his own game easily enough this way.

Shapechange into a Colossal Giant Scorpion. 30 foot reach. At least +36 grapple. Got Constrict and a poison stinger with a DC 33 fort save with a 1d10 Con.

[Aharon]

Reflex Saves, plural? I'd always read the elemental hydras as making one breath attack that did 3d6 per head, not a breath attack per head that did 3d6 damage.

Either way, the fighter survives. First reading gets trivialized by elemental resistance, second reading averages 90 damage.

(There's also a third possible reading: 1 jet/head with 3d6 damage/head, but this is rather obviously not RAI).

[Eldariel]

Shapechange is big game here. It opens up the Cleric buff list, most significantly Divine Power, which removes much of Fighter's advantage. Time Stop + Shapechange makes buffing up a non-issue. If we're talking Core, I have no doubt the Wizard, utilizing a few spell slots, can outfight a Fighter.

Outside Core things get a bit more interesting; assuming there can only be one Heroics in effect on the Wizard at once, Fighter can have concrete advantages. Still, numerically the Wizard should be far ahead, to the tune of 70+ AC and similar To Hit.


But yeah, shapeshifting magic is obscenely powerful. You basically get everything a Fighter spends his whole build on in one spell slot, and then some. Though if Dispelling isn't allowed, Fighter will be able to UMD Time Stop & Shapechange for the fight in which case he'll have some edges to work with.

But I'd assume that's outside what we consider a "Fighter" here? Cross-class ranks for a skill that replicates spells can indeed mimic what a Wizard can do for the duration of one fight (though no Quicken) but it's not sustainable.

[Boci]

At this level, a wizard is capable of stacking so many buffs that he or she could rather easily become nigh-impossible to hit,

How? They can only cast spells that improve their ability to swing a weapon.

[tyckspoon]

The answer is (A): Yes he can, but (B): Not from a dead start. If the Wizard is required to try and get the entire buff package he needs up mid-combat, a competently-built Fighter will splatter him. Especially if the Wizard is not allowed to interact with the Fighter other than by physically hitting him or even cast a purely defensive spell to buy himself time. If the Wizard can use defensive buffs or non-offensive tactics to slow down the Fighter long enough to put up his own offensive suite (ie, cast Superior Invisibility or Ghostform or put up a Prismatic Wall or something between himself and the Fighter), then he can win handily. It might even be enough just to let him have long-lasting prebuffs active going in, such as (Extended) Shapechange and Moment of Prescience.

But.. if the Wizard is starting with no magical effects on him other than magic items, and he's not allowed to do anything to buy the time he needs to buff effectively? Dead Wizard.

[Larkas]

@Crasical:


CRYOHYDRA
Huge Magical Beast (Cold)

These purplish hydras can breathe jets of frost 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of cold damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier.

So a 12-headed Cryohydra can breath for 12x3d6. It's a plus, and you must always try to get the better of the 15HD you're allotted by Polymorph, and the Cryohydra is strictly better than a straight Hydra. Furthermore, cold is less resisted than fire, and fire-resisting are usually weak to cold. Lastly, you're a Wizard. Feel free to use Protection from Energy and/or Resist Energy.

But, as previously said, you also have Shapechange in your repertoire. Feel free to turn into a Solar, casting like a Cleric, hitting like a Fighter and being balder than a Mul.

[Hirax]

Step 1: Win initiative via moment of prescience.
Step 2: Cast rope trick or similar.
Step 3: Buff wizard to taste.

Use heroics from the Spell Compendium to gain feats, allowing you to become an ubercharger for 10 minutes/level. If a wizard were really into swordplay it's safe to say they have a few second level pearls of power for plenty of castings of heroics.

Bite of the werebear and other spells can be used to gain macho strength, making your sword swings more powerful than the fighter could ever hope to achieve in terms of strength. And if you want to be really cheesy, take the feat arcane disciple (luck) to get access to miracle, and use that to cast giant size. Note that giant size gives an untyped bonus to strength that's not tied to your original size, so you can shapechange into chronotyryn for dual actions and a strength of 26, cast bite of the werebear to put your strength at 42, then giant size to put your strength at 74.

The fighter might get bored waiting for you to prepare and wander away though.

[Answerer]

If it comes to it, the Wizard could always cast Invoke Magic in order to cast something inside an Antimagic Field, and then proceed to eat the Fighter. Though I'm not sure on the wording of Invoke Magic – as in, I don't know if anything that's not Instantaneous is actually going to work.

So the Wizard can Invoke Magic on Dimension Door, and then use Shapechange into something that out-reaches the Fighter's Antimagic Field, perhaps?

On another note, unless the Wizard is starting in the Antimagic Field, he will absolutely go first, without the Fighter having anything to say about it. He's got way more options for buffing initiative, then he's got Celerity, and if all else fails, he's undoubtedly got a relevant Contingency ready.

[eggynack]

Why do people always cite the Cyrohydra as the preferred combat form for a polymorphed wizard, anyway? What's the benefit over a normal hydra, the privilege of taking more damage from fire attacks?

Apart from the ice damage, I always jump to it over other hydras because its accessable by a druid using frozen wildshape while pyro and regular hydras aren't. Thus it is always at the front of the mind where high power transformations are concerned.

[137beth]

Wow, when I clicked on this, I didn't see the "melee only" part, and thought "is this a joke?!?!?" Well, it's not QUITE as much of a joke...


If it comes to it, the Wizard could always cast Invoke Magic in order to cast something inside an Antimagic Field, and then proceed to eat the Fighter. Though I'm not sure on the wording of Invoke Magic – as in, I don't know if anything that's not Instantaneous is actually going to work.

So the Wizard can Invoke Magic on Dimension Door, and then use Shapechange into something that out-reaches the Fighter's Antimagic Field, perhaps?

On another note, unless the Wizard is starting in the Antimagic Field, he will absolutely go first, without the Fighter having anything to say about it. He's got way more options for buffing initiative, then he's got Celerity, and if all else fails, he's undoubtedly got a relevant Contingency ready.
What antimagic field? The hypothetical is an unbreakable "anti-non-melee field", the wizard can't escape from it. He can only polymorph himself into a dragon, make himself impossible to hit and invisible, and then claw the fighter to death.

[sonofzeal]

I once performed a fairly thorough statistical analysis with the conclusion that a Wizard can't outfight a Fighter in melee... at level 1.

At lvl 20, the Fighter doesn't stand a chance.

[Eldan]

Does the Wizard really need that many spells? Bite of the Werebear and a few feats should already put him up there.

[Spuddles]

Does the Wizard really need that many spells? Bite of the Werebear and a few feats should already put him up there.

d4 HD and 1/2 BAB means he gets splattered relatively quick.

[Silva Stormrage]

d4 HD and 1/2 BAB means he gets splattered relatively quick.

Greater Mirror Image, Displacement, Abrupt Jaunt and Iron Guard would like to disagree.

[Spuddles]

Greater Mirror Image, Displacement, Abrupt Jaunt and Iron Guard would like to disagree.

Disagree with what?

[sonofzeal]

Disagree with what?
A Fighter can carve through a Wizard's hp very quickly... if he can connect with it. However, with just two spells (one of which can easily be quickened at this level, and the other of which is already a swift action to cast), the Fighter's chance to hit drops to around 5.9375% even if the Wizard has no relevant AC.

Low hp does not translate to "gets splattered relatively quick" when that hp is on a full-caster.

[Killer Angel]

Greater Mirror Image, Displacement, Abrupt Jaunt and Iron Guard would like to disagree.

I would contest the use of spells such invisiility, mirror image and so on.
My take on the OP is "only spells that makes the wizard a melee monster that fight as a fighter because he can"...(not that the final outcome will be different).

[Morph Bark]

A Fighter can carve through a Wizard's hp very quickly... if he can connect with it. However, with just two spells (one of which can easily be quickened at this level, and the other of which is already a swift action to cast), the Fighter's chance to hit drops to around 5.9375% even if the Wizard has no relevant AC.

Low hp does not translate to "gets splattered relatively quick" when that hp is on a full-caster.

What two spells? And do they still apply if the Fighter has Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment?

The wizard will need to be immune to fear effects, too, since the Fighter would obviously be a Zhentarim Fighter.

CAN the Fighter get an Anti-Magic Field around him, anyway?

Are we allowed to pick any races for them? (If so, Karsite Fighter, go!)

[Togo]

As we assuming an unoptimised figher with no access to magic via items? That seems to be what people are assuming...

[TheOOB]

I believe the strategy here is to just cast imprisonment on the fighter, and just say you beat him in a sword fight so well that he disappeared. Who would argue with a 20th level wizard?

In all seriousness, the rule with wizards is, and always has been, that they are impossible to defeat given enough information and time to prepare. Without those they are only nearly impossible to defeat. Honestly speaking, given equal equipment, casting a few good buffs followed by tensers transformation would give you at least 50/50 odds in a straight swordfight, and if you can polymorph and stuff the fighter has no chance.

A better question is can a wizard beat a cleric when they are only able to buff themselves and make weapon attacks.

[Pilo]

Does prismatic sphere count as a melee defense spell?
If yes, the wizard can cast it and touch the fighter with it until it dies (only one contact needed). Using celerity greater (PHB2) double the fun.

[Morph Bark]

I think the OP should be updated with a rule like "the Wizard may only deal damage to the Fighter through melee attacks with a weapon (manufactured or natural) that he wields in his own hands (not those of a simulacrum, astral projection, etc.)". Makes the rules more clear on this.

An exception to this could be auto-damage spells like damaging aura spells or spells that damage the Fighter when he attacks the Wizard.

[Eldan]

So, for gits and shiggles, how high can you get the wizard's AC and hit points?

[Downysole]

So, for gits and shiggles, how high can you get the wizard's AC and hit points?

Stacking miss chance bonuses as well (greater invis, blink, etc) will be of a lot of use, since that single attack roll against AC then has to be re-rolled two or more additional times at 50% success rates.

A lot of times to test out our new high level characters, we set up a fake arena (flat field, narrow alleys, etc.) and randomly roll the amount of buff turns we have. Initiative is rolled and players must stay in place until buff turns are over. Then, combat begins.

I think initiative is very important, but only if the players (and their characters) are well matched in terms of optimization. But if the players are using their general spell lists and general gear (for Wiz and Ftr respectively) or if the players are using their random level 20 characters from other games, the campaigns, I think that you're going to have a close game as well.

But if your Fighter and Wizard are using their same gear as always and given 1 day's notice about the matchup, the Wizard will win because he gets to pick his spells. Fighter is much less flexible in this regard.

[Tyndmyr]

Can I wizard beat a fighter at its own game using its spells to augment how he swings a sword(or use natural attacks or the like) I'm curious to see people's opinions on this.

I've done this at level 5. At 20....yes.

I'm going to toss out Conjurer 5/Incantatrix 8/Iot7v 7 as my default build for this, as is normal for such challenges. Abrupt jaunt ACF.

Wooden spiked chain, with a wand socket holding a wand of wings of cover.

Buffs: Repulsion, Ironguard, greater, Mage Armor, Grtr, Superior Resistance, all four Heart of X, Flight(or a higher level version), Stoneskin, all six of the +4 stat spells, Death Ward, Energy Resist(cold, True Seeing, Superior Invisibility, Mirror Image, Grtr, Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Arcane Sight, Spell Turning, PolyAO(gold dragon), Blink.

I'm sure it can be improved upon, but I use the exact same build for non-melee things, and it could likely beat most fighters of the same level into the ground.

[sonofzeal]

What two spells?Greater Mirror Image and Blink.
And do they still apply if the Fighter has Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment?Yes. Neither is Concealment (unless the Fighter is swinging against Ethereal targets, which even Ghost Touch doesn't manage).


The wizard will need to be immune to fear effects, too, since the Fighter would obviously be a Zhentarim Fighter.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm


CAN the Fighter get an Anti-Magic Field around him, anyway?
There's an Antimagic Torc. It's expensive, but it works. I believe it takes a Standard Action to activate though, and there's a decent chance the Wizard can reliably prevent that from happening. There's virtually no chance the Fighter can get the jump on the Wizard, and very little chance the Fighter will survive whatever the Wizard does once they have the jump.

[Lapak]

Stacking miss chance bonuses as well (greater invis, blink, etc) will be of a lot of use, since that single attack roll against AC then has to be re-rolled two or more additional times at 50% success rates.As someone else has already mentioned, a fighter with the Mage Slayer line is going to punch right through those (turning them into wasted actions in the process.)

This is one that will actually come down to what buffs the Wizard chooses to set up (and thus how much prep time is allowed) versus what feats and items the Fighter has. In melee, a reasonably-built Fighter is absolutely capable of one-shotting the Wizard regardless of what he's Shapechanged to or what defenses he puts up IF they happen match up to the countermeasures he has.

No preparation time? I'd actually put my money on the fighter. Unlimited buff time? Unquestionably the wizard. 1-3 rounds of buff time? Could go either way depending on the specific buffs chosen and the feat/item build of the fighter.

EDIT to SonOfZeal: a 20th fighter with no method of hitting Ethereal targets seems really, really unlikely. And getting the wizard into range is not a problem since the Wizard is required to engage in melee to win.

[Morph Bark]

I've done this at level 5.

Care to show?

Also, all nice and dandy to come in with PrCs, but the OP states "Wizard 20", not "Wizard 5/PrCs 15". Otherwise we might as well assume we're dealing with a Fighter X/Ur-Priest Y/Somethingsomething Z.


Greater Mirror Image and Blink. Yes. Neither is Concealment (unless the Fighter is swinging against Ethereal targets, which even Ghost Touch doesn't manage).

If greater mirror image, as the name suggests, is a derivative of mirror image as stated in the spell entry (that is, the greater mirror image spell entry mentions mirror image), then Pierce Magical Concealment sees right through it.

Blink is a good point though. What if the Fighter could be Blinking, as well? Or Improved Blinking?


There's an Antimagic Torc. It's expensive, but it works. I believe it takes a Standard Action to activate though, and there's a decent chance the Wizard can reliably prevent that from happening. There's virtually no chance the Fighter can get the jump on the Wizard, and very little chance the Fighter will survive whatever the Wizard does once they have the jump.

Since the Wizard has to come within melee range, this is no problem. Plus, if we allow buffing rounds, the Fighter starts with the Torc already activated.


I'm curious what exactly the OP thinks about what the Wizard should be able to do for this fight though, because to this question:

Just clarifying, you're basically asking if a wizard can augment himself to the point of being simply better at melee then the fighter? No summoning or movement or invisibility? Just self buffing?

He gave this answer:

@Vilpich: That'd be right.

So he apparently does not put invisibility under self-buffing, while I certainly would. I think it's safe to say the OP at least would like to exclude spells like disjunction and dispel magic from the Wizard's possibilities, as well as summoning. Since he seems to exclude "movement", I'm going to hazard a guess and say that he meant movement via magic, such as teleportation (which would bar Abrupt Jaunt).

We are dealing with a Wizard optimized for melee combat and purely that, nothing else, which is of course not the best way to deal with combat for a Wizard, so while optimized for melee specifically, generally this Wizard is not optimized.

[AmberVael]

EDIT to SonOfZeal: a 20th fighter with no method of hitting Ethereal targets seems really, really unlikely. And getting the wizard into range is not a problem since the Wizard is required to engage in melee to win.

Actually, can you elaborate on how you'd get your fighter to manage that? I do think there are a few ways, but after considering many of the high level melee combative characters I've made, it occurs to me that affecting ethereal opponents with my attacks is not something that frequently makes it into my list of effects- and I'm typically pretty a paranoid and prepared person (though it is fully possible that this is just something that has slipped through the cracks and been missed on my usual list).

Off the top of my head, I can only think of three ways to manage this on the fighter. The Crown Chakra Bind of Crystal Helm, from Magic of Incarnum, the Force enhancement in MIC, page 35, which only works on projectile weapons, and I think that Force Bow on the WotC website. Can't say I see these used often on a typical fighter (I do tend to go for Crystal Helm when I'm being thrifty and playing an Incarnate, but I'm always thinking of Incorporeal when I do).

I'd also be interested if your level 20 Fighter could manage to hit Ethereal targets using core only material. Largely because I can't think of anything in core that would manage that (unless you forgo using your sword or bow, and instead pick up a wand of magic missile or something).

Edit: I suppose you could use blink or go ethereal too, but that'd still probably be putting a miss chance on your attacks, which would kinda defeat the point.

[Lapak]

Edit: I suppose you could use blink or go ethereal too, but that'd still probably be putting a miss chance on your attacks, which would kinda defeat the point.This was indeed the strategy I was thinking of, because Etherealness is a generally useful property and cheap enough at level 20 that it's worth it to have at least a consumable or uses/day item. You can bypass barriers, escape from otherwise situations, and fight Ethereal foes.

[Tyndmyr]

Care to show?

Let's see IIRC...put an 18 into Str, and comboed w human paragon. Used a halberd. Grabbed combat reflexes. Was a pretty straightforward "casts buffs before battle, stabs people" build. Had lower hp and AC than a straight fighter my level would have, prebuffs, but


Also, all nice and dandy to come in with PrCs, but the OP states "Wizard 20", not "Wizard 5/PrCs 15". Otherwise we might as well assume we're dealing with a Fighter X/Ur-Priest Y/Somethingsomething Z.

I have no problem with the fighter taking PrCs to fight better. If it's a melee only fight...whatever. If he only wins by also becoming a caster, it doesn't really show much.

That said, much off that buff list is long duration. Hell, some of it can be permanencied. With the investment of Extend spell, there should be small worries about having the whole list up.


If greater mirror image, as the name suggests, is a derivative of mirror image as stated in the spell entry (that is, the greater mirror image spell entry mentions mirror image), then Pierce Magical Concealment sees right through it.

There are countermeasures, yes. The point is to have sufficiently many defenses that the fighter is unable to have countermeasures for all of them.

That said, this particular countermeasure won't work unless the feat explicitly mentioned mirror image. It doesn't grant a concealment bonus. Ditto blink. It's why I use them instead of say, blur.

For instance, if he's using a metal weapon, he's simply outright unable to hurt me. Crit? I'm immune. DR to reduce base damage. One energy immunity and one notable resist before I even consider gear.

If he can't make will saves, repulsion is also a problem for him.


Blink is a good point though. What if the Fighter could be Blinking, as well? Or Improved Blinking?

He could be. But it takes him more resources than it takes me. Again, I intend to win through sheer weight of resources.


Since the Wizard has to come within melee range, this is no problem. Plus, if we allow buffing rounds, the Fighter starts with the Torc already activated.

At level 20, Time Stop allows buffing. I don't mind assuming the fighter can also buff, for fairness, but I'm not worried about the wizard lacking a chance.


So he apparently does not put invisibility under self-buffing, while I certainly would. I think it's safe to say the OP at least would like to exclude spells like disjunction and dispel magic from the Wizard's possibilities, as well as summoning. Since he seems to exclude "movement", I'm going to hazard a guess and say that he meant movement via magic, such as teleportation (which would bar Abrupt Jaunt).

I think it's fair to eliminate spells that are targetted on the enemy, but I would consider invisibility a buff. Ditto fly.


We are dealing with a Wizard optimized for melee combat and purely that, nothing else, which is of course not the best way to deal with combat for a Wizard, so while optimized for melee specifically, generally this Wizard is not optimized.

Frankly, just being PaOed into a big old gold dragon is kind of a problem for the fighter. Even if I did nothing else, he'd need to deal with the fact that I now have ludicrous stats and flight.

Vael, I think there's some kind of 3/day limited strike for it too...but again, I would agree that striking ethereal creatures requires notable planning and investment on the part of the fighter.

[Morph Bark]

This was indeed the strategy I was thinking of, because Etherealness is a generally useful property and cheap enough at level 20 that it's worth it to have at least a consumable or uses/day item. You can bypass barriers, escape from otherwise situations, and fight Ethereal foes.

One problem: Blink causes the target creature to move rapidly between the Material and Ethereal Planes. If you are only on one of them, you have 50% miss chance. The only way you could eliminate that miss chance is through eliminating Blink or finding a way to Blink in synch with the Wizard.

[Rubik]

If it comes to it, the Wizard could always cast Invoke Magic in order to cast something inside an Antimagic Field, and then proceed to eat the Fighter. Though I'm not sure on the wording of Invoke Magic – as in, I don't know if anything that's not Instantaneous is actually going to work.Or use a tinfoil hat. Or, y'know, just 5' step out...

[moritheil]

As someone else has already mentioned, a fighter with the Mage Slayer line is going to punch right through those (turning them into wasted actions in the process.)

Uh, not blink/improved blink, as you're actually physically not present. Mage Slayer doesn't help with those.

That said, they probably aren't needed. With Shapechange alone the wizard can probably outlast the fighter in melee, as it grants access not only to dragon forms but to forms which can heal.

[Togo]

I have no problem with the fighter taking PrCs to fight better. If it's a melee only fight...whatever. If he only wins by also becoming a caster, it doesn't really show much.

Does a wizard shapechanging into a fighting monster say anything more about the wizard, than a fighter gaining the ability to use spells says about the fighter?

The point is, I assume, to what extent the wizard can adopt the fighter's shtick. If the fighter can win by adopting the wizard's abilities, isn't that just karma? Or are we assuming the fighter has to win by swinging a sword too?

P-classes are still a problem. I'm happy to create a melee character to use in such a contest, but with p-classes I'm not sure it would recognisably be a fighter. Similarly, a wizard winning through innovative use of prismatic sphere isn't really adopting melee.

[Togo]

Uh, not blink/improved blink, as you're actually physically not present. Mage Slayer doesn't help with those..

It helps. It reduces it to 20% miss chance, which is the same chance as the wizard has when striking back.


Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn’t help opponents, since you’re ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).

If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.

So a wizard who blinks against a fighter who can both see invisible and strike ethereal, is not impeding the fighter at all, but puts himself at a disadvantage.

[Spuddles]

A Fighter can carve through a Wizard's hp very quickly... if he can connect with it. However, with just two spells (one of which can easily be quickened at this level, and the other of which is already a swift action to cast), the Fighter's chance to hit drops to around 5.9375% even if the Wizard has no relevant AC.

Low hp does not translate to "gets splattered relatively quick" when that hp is on a full-caster.

Yet neither of those spells are bite of the werebear and a few feats....

[Morph Bark]

I have no problem with the fighter taking PrCs to fight better. If it's a melee only fight...whatever. If he only wins by also becoming a caster, it doesn't really show much.

Thing is, even with PrCs that Fighter, if taking only Fighter-like PrCs, is never going to go above Tier 3, while the Wizard is getting more and more Tier 1 tricks with PrCs. If the tricks are dependant on the PrC, we're no longer really talking about the Wizard. Or the Fighter, for that matter.


That said, this particular countermeasure won't work unless the feat explicitly mentioned mirror image. It doesn't grant a concealment bonus. Ditto blink. It's why I use them instead of say, blur.

Pierce Magical Concealment says: "In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments."

So yes, it mentions it.


For instance, if he's using a metal weapon, he's simply outright unable to hurt me. Crit? I'm immune. DR to reduce base damage. One energy immunity and one notable resist before I even consider gear.

If he can't make will saves, repulsion is also a problem for him.

How is the Wizard outright immune to damage from metal weapons, specifically? :smallconfused:


I think it's fair to eliminate spells that are targetted on the enemy, but I would consider invisibility a buff. Ditto fly.

I think so as well. Fly would not be much of a buff in this case, though, unless you use a weapon with longer reach than the fighter, who is undoubtedly going to capitilize at least partially on that.


Frankly, just being PaOed into a big old gold dragon is kind of a problem for the fighter. Even if I did nothing else, he'd need to deal with the fact that I now have ludicrous stats and flight.

True. What's the duration on PaO though?

And would it be fair to assume a Fighter could purchase castings of spells on him before the battle, or for during the buffing rounds? If PaO has a long duration for him (though I've heard of people use it twice in a row to make it permanent under some interpretations), I can imagine that in a world where PaO exists a lot of high-level people are going to purchase castings of it to get permanently turned into something harder, better, faster, stronger. He could've done it years ago.

[AmberVael]

So a wizard who blinks against a fighter who can both see invisible and strike ethereal, is not impeding the fighter at all, but puts himself at a disadvantage.
It's the striking ethereal part that's the problem, as I was pointing out earlier. Generally, the fighter will at best be even with the wizard.

However, I know I generally use Greater Blink. Gets rid of that nasty miss chance on the caster's side of the equation. It's always possible that the wizard will use that, though bumping the spell up two levels kinda hurts. I find it worth it at high levels though.

It's easy for the Fighter to reduce Blink/Greater Blink to 20% miss chance, and really, at level 20 he should be able to, or something is wrong. It's not nearly as easy to eliminate the miss chance entirely.


How is the Wizard outright immune to damage from metal weapons, specifically? :smallconfused:
That'd be Ironguard. (Page 125 of the Spell Compendium). Really mean spell when you're fighting mundane types.

(Also, people keep saying Greater Ironguard. No such thing, at least in the spell compendium. There's just Lesser Ironguard, and Ironguard).

[The Glyphstone]

How is the Wizard outright immune to damage from metal weapons, specifically? :smallconfused:



Greater Ironguard.

[Morph Bark]

Does Ironguard defend, as the name suggests, only against iron or against any type of metal (such as adamantine, cold iron and silver)?

[moritheil]

It helps. It reduces it to 20% miss chance, which is the same chance as the wizard has when striking back.

Ah, good catch. There is that, for Blink. But not for the improved version, right? I'm pretty sure it eliminates the miss chance on your end.

[tyckspoon]

Does Ironguard defend, as the name suggests, only against iron or against any type of metal (such as adamantine, cold iron and silver)?

Any metal. It's one of those things you *can* bypass, but you have to specifically think about it and pick up something that works on it for that explicit use.

[moritheil]

Does Ironguard defend, as the name suggests, only against iron or against any type of metal (such as adamantine, cold iron and silver)?

I believe the version I'm familiar with specifically defends against weapons of iron/steel. That could be 3.0 or 2e I'm thinking of, though.

EDIT: Nope. "Metal items pass harmlessly through you." All metal.

[Togo]

I believe the version I'm familiar with specifically defends against weapons of iron/steel. That could be 3.0 or 2e I'm thinking of, though.

EDIT: Nope. "Metal items pass harmlessly through you." All metal.

Which is going to make it hard to use a tinfoil hat, or any spells that require metallic components.

[Karoht]

Does the Wizard have access to Elemental Body?
Great. The Wizard sinks into the ground, takes as long as s/he wants to buff, then proceeds to attack at leisure. From the ground. No illusions or other such tricks needed really.

If it's a Sorcerer and not a Wizard, the Sorcerer buffs up to invulnerability (just in case), and then proceeds to use that massive Charisma to talk to the Fighter and convince him that this is stupid, they are both cool people who serve different rolls in combat, they should both go have a beer and laugh about it.

[Morph Bark]

Does the Wizard have access to Elemental Body?
Great. The Wizard sinks into the ground, takes as long as s/he wants to buff, then proceeds to attack at leisure. From the ground. No illusions or other such tricks needed really.

If it's a Sorcerer and not a Wizard, the Sorcerer buffs up to invulnerability (just in case), and then proceeds to use that massive Charisma to talk to the Fighter and convince him that this is stupid, they are both cool people who serve different rolls in combat, they should both go have a beer and laugh about it.

1. The Fighter could be flying.

2. If both are PCs, Diplomacy doesn't work.

[Karoht]

1. The Fighter could be flying.Once completely buffed underground, the Wizard is then free to either activate a fly also, or turn into a Wind Elemental. Either way, Wizard gets to have as much time as needed buffing up. If the Wizard remains an Earth Elemental, then the Wizard gets a cool factor bonus and possibly the element of surprise (the fighter has no idea where the wizard is underground) when the Wizard explodes out of the ground as a man made of stone, probably a large or huge creature, and tries to use a Slam attack on the Fighter.
Or grapples him.

[Lord_Arkaine]

These are horribly unfair comparisons. A fighter depends on a wizard buffing him just as a wizard depends on the fighter defending him so has time to cast buffs.

The fighter would easily win if he had a wizard of his own buffing him before (or during) the fight. The wizard wins through rules exploiting, little else, as D&D is a team-based system and the wizard too temp-happy. Blow all your spells in one fight and have zero for the next one sort of thing.

But prebuffed fighter vs all the time he needs wizard? That +36 colossal scorpion grapple check isn't going to even faze the fighter, and if he's not already immune to Fort-based poison he didn't need those hitpoints anyway, he's got another 200 of them.

[Karoht]

These are horribly unfair comparisons.I completely agree. However...


The fighter would easily win if he had a wizard of his own buffing him before (or during) the fight. The wizard wins through rules exploiting, little else, as D&D is a team-based system and the wizard too temp-happy. Blow all your spells in one fight and have zero for the next one sort of thing.

But prebuffed fighter vs all the time he needs wizard? That +36 colossal scorpion grapple check isn't going to even faze the fighter, and if he's not already immune to Fort-based poison he didn't need those hitpoints anyway, he's got another 200 of them.Depends. Are the Wizard's self only buffs greater than the opposing Wizards buffs that are castable on the fighter?
Yes, I agree in advance that it is a bit absurd to turn this into an arms race of buffs.

This is part and parcel to what I was on about with Elemental Body and turning into an earth elemental. The Fighter, buffed as he may be, has next to no way to retaliate while the Wizard has every opportunity to attack. Unless the Fighter can cleave the very earth.

[Augmental]

These are horribly unfair comparisons. A fighter depends on a wizard buffing him just as a wizard depends on the fighter defending him so has time to cast buffs.

The fighter would easily win if he had a wizard of his own buffing him before (or during) the fight. The wizard wins through rules exploiting, little else, as D&D is a team-based system and the wizard too temp-happy. Blow all your spells in one fight and have zero for the next one sort of thing.

But prebuffed fighter vs all the time he needs wizard? That +36 colossal scorpion grapple check isn't going to even faze the fighter, and if he's not already immune to Fort-based poison he didn't need those hitpoints anyway, he's got another 200 of them.

This is an arena battle. It has nothing to do with team-based battling (unless it's an "# vs #" battle, which this isn't.)

[Togo]

This is an arena battle. It has nothing to do with team-based battling (unless it's an "# vs #" battle, which this isn't.)

The fighter should really be using anti-magic. It's easy enough to get hold of, and totally changes the face of the battle.

And why would being melded in the ground stop the fighter attacking the wizard? The terms of the combat specifically prohibt the wizard leaving melee, so he stays within strike range. Sure the earth would give you cover, but...

[Tyndmyr]

These are horribly unfair comparisons. A fighter depends on a wizard buffing him just as a wizard depends on the fighter defending him so has time to cast buffs.

The fighter would easily win if he had a wizard of his own buffing him before (or during) the fight. The wizard wins through rules exploiting, little else, as D&D is a team-based system and the wizard too temp-happy. Blow all your spells in one fight and have zero for the next one sort of thing.

But prebuffed fighter vs all the time he needs wizard? That +36 colossal scorpion grapple check isn't going to even faze the fighter, and if he's not already immune to Fort-based poison he didn't need those hitpoints anyway, he's got another 200 of them.

I would not assume that the fighter has a "buffing wizard", but rather that the fighter can utilize standard WBL to purchase items, many of which are magical.

Thing is, the wizard also has WBL. So, that's mostly a wash. In terms of pure class based abilities, the wizard's tend to trump the fighters, even if the delivery is stabbing based.


Thing is, even with PrCs that Fighter, if taking only Fighter-like PrCs, is never going to go above Tier 3, while the Wizard is getting more and more Tier 1 tricks with PrCs. If the tricks are dependant on the PrC, we're no longer really talking about the Wizard. Or the Fighter, for that matter.

It's a power boost to both. Being straight classed is no great hardship for the wizard. I'm not really utilizing a great deal from these classes, so it's no big thing.


Pierce Magical Concealment says: "In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments."

So yes, it mentions it.

The very phrase I was looking for...yup, you're good. Still, mirror image is sufficiently powerful against people without PMC that I don't regret including it.


How is the Wizard outright immune to damage from metal weapons, specifically? :smallconfused:

That's Ironguard. It's pretty fantastic. It can be worked around, but it will make a substantial portion of melee folks very unhappy.


I think so as well. Fly would not be much of a buff in this case, though, unless you use a weapon with longer reach than the fighter, who is undoubtedly going to capitilize at least partially on that.

It avoids things like being tripped. IIRC, magical flight = no trip issues.

Also, it gives you a usually better movement speed overall. Heart of Air plus fly is 70 foot movement speed, so that's handy, depending on the battlefield.


True. What's the duration on PaO though?

It depends. Up to permanent.


And would it be fair to assume a Fighter could purchase castings of spells on him before the battle, or for during the buffing rounds? If PaO has a long duration for him (though I've heard of people use it twice in a row to make it permanent under some interpretations), I can imagine that in a world where PaO exists a lot of high-level people are going to purchase castings of it to get permanently turned into something harder, better, faster, stronger. He could've done it years ago.

If we're doing a one-off battle, consumables and pre-battle one-time services should be subject to the usual 10x cost multiplier. So, we're looking at something like 27k or so for two castings. Certainly achievable, but again, it depletes resources that the wizard need not use. If you're looking at this as more of a campaign model, the fighter is particularly vulnerable to dispels over his career, so again, larger resource usage.

I'm not adverse to the fighter utilizing spells under the same rules as the wizard, but his ability to do so is inherently weaker than the wizards.

Consider...a spell storing weapon with Dispel Magic in it. The fighter not only can't reload his, but the wizard is going to have generally better CL buffs than the fighter.

[Karoht]

The fighter should really be using anti-magic. It's easy enough to get hold of, and totally changes the face of the battle.

And why would being melded in the ground stop the fighter attacking the wizard? The terms of the combat specifically prohibt the wizard leaving melee, so he stays within strike range. Sure the earth would give you cover, but...
Large or Huge Earth Elemental has reach of 10ft/15ft respectively.
Can the fighter, with a reach weapon, power through that much earth and that much cover, just to strike the wizard, and do so with any degree of power or accuracy? On top of all the other Wizard buffs?
If the fighter stands there and blindly stabs at the dirt while the Wizard punches him in the crotch, well, that imagery speaks for itself.

Easily countered by flying a minimum of 10ft off the ground mind you. If the Fighter has wealth by level, this is easy enough to obtain.


Sum total of advantages I see so far for the Wizard is:
-Wizard likely acts first, this is without timestop and such.
-Wizard can buff up fully without too much difficulty.
-Wizard may even have the element of surprise when Wizard emerges from the ground. Even if the Fighter has a massive Spellcraft check to tell what the Wizard is doing, the Fighter probably can't see the Wizard though 10ft or more of earth.
-Wizard can probaby output nearly as much damage as the Fighter if the Wizard successfully strikes, and the Wizard can probably hit as often as the Fighter, assuming buffs are at play.
-Changing into an Earth Elemental may give the Wizard yet more of an edge to break the stalemate of buffs/debuffs.
-Wizard may or may not have a relevant Contingency effect. Difficult to speculate on that.

[Rubik]

-Wizard may or may not have a relevant Contingency effect. Difficult to speculate on that.Limited Wish can ensure that he does.

[Randomguy]

Elemental body doesn't actually turn you into an elemental (it just gives you a bunch of the same immunities that elementals get) and the earth version doesn't give you earth glide. If you want earth glide, You'll need the Xorn movement spell. Or you could just use shapechange.

The tricky part of this fight is getting around Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment. With those feats, all the wizard's AC boosting and miss chance spells are useless. However, the wizard could still have a decent AC via magic items, and Abrupt Jaunt can be used to just dodge the attacks, even without a miss chance.

Another trick that the fighter could have, since we should in all fairness assume a fully optimized one, is the bind vestige feat for Naberius for fast ability healing and a ring of X-ray vision (Or just a ring of X-ray vision and being warforged or immune to ability damage somehow), meaning he would in fact be able to see the wizard while he's underground.

[sonofzeal]

We're spending a lot of time on how the Wizard defends against the Fighter, but let's look at it from the other direction.

What is the Wizard's likely offence against the Fighter? With Nerveskitter, Hummingbirds, and Celerity it's pretty certain the Wizard will win initiative. With far better options for speed and alternate movement forms, it's pretty certain the Wizard will be able to engage on their own terms. So what's the Wizard going to be doing in that first round of combat before the Fighter ever has a chance to put the Mageslayer line to work? And is there anything the Fighter can do to survive it?

[Hirax]

Let's see if I can fit this into one round.

Wizard wins initiative via moment of prescience, without multiclassing it's laughable to assume the fighter has a chance here.
Shapechange into chronotyryn (free action, my one assumed all day buff, which is easy with an extend rod and a pearl of power or archmage vest)
Choose destiny (RoD)
Maximized time stop (use a rod, and a preemptive 'get off my lawn' to anyone that mentions extend/persist with time stop)
Time stop 1: Giant size (CArc) via miracle, quickened heroics (Spell Comp. spiked chain proficiency), bite of the werebear (Spell Comp. puts strength at 74, also grants power attack and blind-fight)
Time stop 2: Greater heroism, xorn movement (Spell Comp. for both, change as necessary depending on terrain), quickened haste
Time stop 3: Activate vest of the archmagi (MIC), divine power (miracle), greater magic weapon
Time stop 4: Activate vest of the archmagi, improvisation (miracle), moment of prescience (might consume third archmagi vest use)
Time stop 5: Quickened true strike, undermaster, move earth (only a standard action thanks to undermaster), extended (because why not :smallbiggrin: ) wraithstrike (thanks Randomguy!)
Greater celerity (PHB2), full attack.

The wizard has had far more move actions than are needed to obtain ideal position, and they will be attacking from inside the ground due to xorn movement, granting them an additional +2 to attack rolls due to being invisible by virtue of being in the ground, which certainly will make the wizard "visually undetectable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible)." PMC and the like are worthless now. What's that you say, the fighter was flying? Well that's what move earth was for, now there is ground beneath them! So at this point the wizard is up against the fighter's flat-footed (because they haven't acted yet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted)) touch (wraithstrike) AC, and it needs to survive a full attack consisting of the following attack bonuses:
+55/+50/+45/+40/+50

I applied moment of prescience to the final attack roll, and the +10 improvisation bonus to the final 4 attacks. True strike is required to be put on the first attack. Colossal causes a -4 penalty to attack rolls. Haste and greater heroism round out the attack roll modifers. No BAB was added because I assume you're power attacking. And because of choose destiny, each attack rolls 2d20, so natural 1s are effectively out of the picture. I didn't even really scratch the surface of pumping attack rolls, and there's plenty of room in that time stop for more spells (especially if the fighter was already on the ground), so I'm just going to assume that all 5 attacks automatically hit.
21 (assumed average of 6d6 from colossal spiked chain)
+48 (1.5x strength mod)
+40 (power attack)
+5 (magic weapon)
114 (total)

450 is probably the outer limit for the fighter's hit points, so it's dead. All of this requires only 2 feats (good feats at that), a maximize rod (great to own anyway), a vest of the archmagi (stupendous to own), and any spiked chain, even a non-magical one. A lesser quicken rod would make you not need to prepare any of the 3 quickened spells that way. Choose your own method of all day shapechange (and foresight while you're at it, it's part of a complete breakfast!).

Edit: If you're not satisfied, pounce and double damage are only a free action (shapechange) and valorous weapon away. Shock trooper is only 2 castings of heroics away, one for imp. bull rush. It gets even uglier for the fighter the more you trawl.

If the fighter somehow survives it doesn't matter, because the wizard's 60 foot reach means they have the ability to strike from deep enough in the earth that they're impossible to hit. Unless the fighter was carrying a 60 foot long sword and can stab at the ground hard enough to make it penetrate that deep.

I also believe this fits the OP's criteria, because every spell is in some way directly granting an advantage in melee combat.

[Augmental]

Consider...a spell storing weapon with Dispel Magic in it. The fighter not only can't reload his, but the wizard is going to have generally better CL buffs than the fighter.

Now I'm wondering if there's any way to do that with Greater Dispel Magic.

[Randomguy]

Let's see if I can fit this into one round.

<snip>

You can also cast wraithstrike on the last round as a swift action, to be extra sure all of those attacks hit.

How exactly are you casting Miracle? It's not on the wizard list. You could get it with 19 wisdom and arcane disciple (luck domain), but you didn't specify that you did.

[Hirax]

How exactly are you casting Miracle? It's not on the wizard list. You could get it with 19 wisdom and arcane disciple (luck domain), but you didn't specify that you did.

Yep, I alluded to it when I mentioned that 2 feats are required. The other being arcane disciple (destiny), and by extension you then need to worship a deity like Lyris or Istus. Luck also grants freedom of movement, and destiny also grants warp destiny, those 2 feats really add some great spells to your list.

[Answerer]

Also, you still seem free to cast Celerity to do it a second time before the Fighter gets a turn.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So, is this meant to be a good faith competition between two real individuals? A lot of ideas have been tossed out for fighter like withdraw to pull the wizard out of his defenses and cast debuffs basically having the fighter respond to the wizard playing like a fighter by playing like a wizard.

If the fighter spends all his WBL to pretend to be a wizard then yes he can beat a wizard that insists on just buffing and punchersizing. If this senario was the result of a bet or pissing contest the wizard would cry foul at some of these tactics and proceed to fight like a wizard.

Oh and as for tinfoil hat+Ironguard the cone is sown into a stiff cloth hat so metal is neverdirectly resting on his head. It's suspended a solid inch or two above his head and is less than half of the volume of the hat so there's no chance of the property being ruled to transfer.

[docnessuno]

My strategy in high-level arena games for beating pure spellcasters (yes, it can be done), assuming no pre-buffing:

Spend your WBL in tomes, antimagic torcs (more than one) and grafts. Plus a belt of battle.
Get your initiative as high as possible => win initiative
Activate the belt for extra actions, activate the antimagic torc, reach the wizard and grapple him.

Antimagic field + grapple is good enough to shut down 90% of the spellcasters.

[georgie_leech]

How's that help against Celerity?

[Hirax]

How's that help against Celerity?

You can't take actions while flat footed, and he said no pre buffing, so no foresight. Even though all day foresight is trivial at level 20, even for a core only wizard. The whole winning initiative thing is still doubtful, especially since wizards can wear all the same magic items (not like they need the slots for much else), so you basically need to win with your dex modifier, which isn't going to happen. Unless multiclassing is brought in, but that isn't relevant to this thread, and even then, getting past MoP, nerveskitter, etc is still very suspect. I've seen the claim made before and never been all that impressed, because while you can get your initiative boosted very high, you tend to sacrifice a lot of potential offense in the process of getting all those class abilities to boost your initiative.

[sonofzeal]

My strategy in high-level arena games for beating pure spellcasters (yes, it can be done), assuming no pre-buffing:

Spend your WBL in tomes, antimagic torcs (more than one) and grafts. Plus a belt of battle.
Get your initiative as high as possible => win initiative
Activate the belt for extra actions, activate the antimagic torc, reach the wizard and grapple him.

Antimagic field + grapple is good enough to shut down 90% of the spellcasters.
This assumes you'll win initiative. "As high as possible" for a Fighter is maybe within a nat20 of "as high as possible" for a Wizard, but the Wizard's going to have the edge by a substantial margin.

[Little Brother]

I have one fighter than can win:
Naenhoon Illumian Fighter, with int 19 and decent charisma
Feats: Magical Training, Heighten, Earth Bloodline(I prefer Penumbra, but Earth is best here, I think), Arcane Disciple(Envy), Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment(Sun Domain),Extra Turning(Or a stupidly high Charisma), Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Extra Slot.

Two flaws, or some Elder Evil Shuffling, but it works.

Though, more seriously, does a Runescarred Berserker count as a "Fighter" for this?

[Togo]

Let's see if I can fit this into one round.


Very impressive! A few quibbles.

You're using two long term buffs - MoP and shapechange. Not sure that fits the OP
You're assuming the fighter has no immediate actions, which is probably likely but is a potential hole.
The whole moving underground thing is a bit dubious, and I don't see that you need it...
-While the spell allows you to move through earth and rock, it doesn't give you any means of seeing through same.
-Striking from full cover does nothing to conceal your attacks, and I'm not convinced that it would give you invisibilty, or even that it would make you hard to find.
-You may be stretching things to call sitting 60ft behind a solid earth rampart as 'being in melee'.
-what happens if he's not standing on earth, but on rock, in a city, on a mount, in a boat, etc? This seems very situational.
-Can move earth create a rampart both high enough and wide enough to contain your new form?

[Tyndmyr]

Now I'm wondering if there's any way to do that with Greater Dispel Magic.

Well, a bard with Sanctum Spell gets it down to level 4. If you can reduce it by another level, you're there. This is probably more cheese than I'd use in most matchups, but it's an amusing idea.


My strategy in high-level arena games for beating pure spellcasters (yes, it can be done), assuming no pre-buffing:

Spend your WBL in tomes, antimagic torcs (more than one) and grafts. Plus a belt of battle.
Get your initiative as high as possible => win initiative
Activate the belt for extra actions, activate the antimagic torc, reach the wizard and grapple him.

Antimagic field + grapple is good enough to shut down 90% of the spellcasters.

Incidentally, this does nothing against the build I originally posted. Iot7v shrugs off the AMF due to veil, ignores the grapple via discharging Heart of Air for FoM, and just continues to hit you.

And, frankly, Gold Dragons are remarkably good at grappling anyway.

It doesn't matter against celerity, higher init, and Invoke Magic is still a threat.


You can't take actions while flat footed, and he said no pre buffing, so no foresight. Even though all day foresight is trivial at level 20, even for a core only wizard. The whole winning initiative thing is still doubtful, especially since wizards can wear all the same magic items (not like they need the slots for much else), so you basically need to win with your dex modifier, which isn't going to happen. Unless multiclassing is brought in, but that isn't relevant to this thread, and even then, getting past MoP, nerveskitter, etc is still very suspect. I've seen the claim made before and never been all that impressed, because while you can get your initiative boosted very high, you tend to sacrifice a lot of potential offense in the process of getting all those class abilities to boost your initiative.

Wizards also have the advantage of access to Nerveskitter and a Hummingbird familiar. With the right feat, that's what, +11 that the fighter can't get access to? That's sufficient that with opposed checks, the wizard will win the vast majority of the time.

You're right, class abilities are often not worth it, but things like a low level spell slot? May as well.

[Lord_Arkaine]

This is an arena battle. It has nothing to do with team-based battling (unless it's an "# vs #" battle, which this isn't.)

Which is my point... wizards are extremely temporary classes, everything they do vanishes after a while. Fighters can continue going long after a wizard has run out of spells, they're built for endurance, not burst. If a wizard couldn't kill one measly fighter with his ENTIRE spellbook, there'd be no purpose to even having a caster. A wizard is always going to have an edge in an arena competition where he can unload his entire spell arsenal because arenas remove a wizard's greatest weakness: his spell per day limit.

No more is there a need to consider not wasting a spell that might be needed later, conservation is out the window. Furthermore, the spell list can be custom tailored to being impervious to melee, while the fighter has very limited anti-magic customization available that isn't standard par for the course, and the magical defenses he does boast hurt his offensive build due to feats being less flexible than the wizard's spell list. And while standard fare is in play, the wizard can dump all his "useless" party buffs and utility magics to grab even more defense and attack spells, all to squander on this one meaningless duel that breaches the very design of D&D and the purpose of a party-based system.

It's like asking who would win in a duel, a fire elemental or a water elemental, but neglecting the fact that the match is taking place underwater.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

cheap trick

"Im a fighter. Look what i brought, a ring of wishes. I wish that you forget all your prepared spells."

[Hirax]

Very impressive! A few quibbles.

You're using two long term buffs - MoP and shapechange. Not sure that fits the OP
You're assuming the fighter has no immediate actions, which is probably likely but is a potential hole.
The whole moving underground thing is a bit dubious, and I don't see that you need it...
-While the spell allows you to move through earth and rock, it doesn't give you any means of seeing through same.
-Striking from full cover does nothing to conceal your attacks, and I'm not convinced that it would give you invisibilty, or even that it would make you hard to find.
-You may be stretching things to call sitting 60ft behind a solid earth rampart as 'being in melee'.
-what happens if he's not standing on earth, but on rock, in a city, on a mount, in a boat, etc? This seems very situational.
-Can move earth create a rampart both high enough and wide enough to contain your new form?

Moment of prescience doesn't make much sense as anything other than a long term buff, the situation where I used it to aid an attack roll is a pretty rare edge use. I'd wager the spell rarely sees use immediately after casting, due to the volume of spells that do the same thing at a lower level, such as true strike. I see your point with shapechange, and was aware of it as I was writing. I'm always leery of the whole 'wizards can't have buffs already active thing,' because it takes away from the challenge depending on how far you're cracking down. 2 pearls of power and 2 extend rods are an easy core way to get all day shapechange and foresight, for instance, and every component is being used exactly as intended. A vest of the archmagi is better if the MIC is available, of course. The only situation where I agree is with things such an DMM and incantatrices, otherwise nobody cares if you can kill a wizard with x y z nerfs, it's boring and doesn't prove anything. However, an easy workaround is simply to cast shapechange instead of choose destiny, then use a belt of battle to cast choose destiny. That knocks it down to only MoP being active ahead of time. You can also leave out choose destiny and pick another method of avoiding 1s on attack rolls.

The fighter is flat footed until it acts and thus cannot use immediate actions. I'm not able to come up with a workaround for a pure fighter off the top of my head (save perhaps the fighter becomes wizard shenanigans that Little Brother alludes to, because it will be able to cast foresight no doubt), I'm curious if one exists though, I'd love to be able to get my martial characters immune to surprise.

Seeing through stone and earth is tricky, because it's never explained how earth elementals or anything else with similar movement have any sense of navigation or perception either. My groups have always assumed that they, and anything else with that ability, see through it like a fish sees through water (just like how it describes them as moving through said objects). Otherwise how could they know where they're going? This is an assumption that I carried into my post, and I'm fine knowing that it's not something everyone is going to accept. However, with that said, it really doesn't matter here I don't think. It's an overkill tactic and there are workarounds to continue using it on the first round. If the fighter survives subsequent rounds then the chronotyryn can take a move action to come out of the ground, full attack, then another move action to dive back into the ground.

Whether the wizard gets the +2 attack bonus from invisibility really doesn't matter, especially after Randomguy point out wraithstrike. I think it would because they're in a situation where they are literally visually undetectable, but I'm happy to agree to disagree. I am curious how you think the fighter could pinpoint their location, let alone attack them, though.

I see your point about questioning whether it's melee, but I believe it fits the spirit of the OP by virtue of making the wizard's attacks harder to dodge, and it also makes it harder for the fighter to know how to tactically position them self as a bonus.

Undermaster's ability to use move earth as a standard action is one of the most powerful things in the game when used properly, due to the sheer volume of earth it can move. You can take a 750 foot by 750 foot area of earth up to 10 feet deep, and move it where you want within the range of the spell (400+40/CL feet). A 70 foot tall colossal creature would have a volume of 63,000 feet. Move earth can move up to 5,625,000 cubic feet of earth as a standard action, thanks to undermaster. At level 20, that means you can take a 750'x750'x10' chunk of earth and move it to anywhere else in a 1,200' radius around you, so the fighter would need to be flying very high to avoid its effects. Multiple castings could be used if needed. You also need to avoid the temptation to simply bury the fighter while doing this. :smallbiggrin:

If they're in a metal structure, ironguard actually lets you pass through it, and you can simply fly around with your wings. If they're in a totally rocky area, you could find a way to fit in a couple castings of soften earth and stone, which undermaster also allows you to cast. In a building or ship? I'd use my fists to destroy them, and the fighter with it. Or draw them out at least. Still melee solutions. :smallbiggrin: I don't see what being on a mount would do, I hope I'm not overlooking something obvious.

But frankly, you are right, the whole underground thing is completely unnecessary until anyone can show that the fighter could withstand the 500+ damage. Another trick to shut the fighter down if they survive is simply to cast heroics again somewhere in the time stop, then take combat reflexes. Not many fighters are going to be able to avoid all those AoOs they'll provoke getting close enough to hit you, and because AoOs are not an action, they can be done while dazed. I understand people think this is dubious, and I actually disagree. You defend yourself normally while dazed, you aren't any easier to hit. It's not a stretch at all to say you can make AoOs.

[Tyndmyr]

cheap trick

"Im a fighter. Look what i brought, a ring of wishes. I wish that you forget all your prepared spells."

Well, that's not on the safe list. Or anything like the safe list. So, instead of being a cheap trick, it either fails to work, or otherwise is likely twisted horribly.

And if it DOES work, then all it shows is that Wish trumps all. The wizard can also cast wish or indeed, buy a ring of three wishes.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Well, that's not on the safe list. Or anything like the safe list. So, instead of being a cheap trick, it either fails to work, or otherwise is likely twisted horribly.

And if it DOES work, then all it shows is that Wish trumps all. The wizard can also cast wish or indeed, buy a ring of three wishes.

one of the main reason i said that, is because people are stating combos and assuming that it would work without knowing what the fighter has, it could be wasting alot spells and finding out that what you did was for nort.

[Hirax]

one of the main reason i said that, is because people are stating combos and assuming that it would work without knowing what the fighter has, it could be wasting alot spells and finding out that what you did was for nort.

You still need to win initiative to use the ring.

[Tyndmyr]

one of the main reason i said that, is because people are stating combos and assuming that it would work without knowing what the fighter has, it could be wasting alot spells and finding out that what you did was for nort.

Granted, but it's a plan that's remarkably likely to not work, so it's mostly a waste of WBL.

On the other hand, wasting a few spells...meh. You have lots at 20. AND WBL.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

You still need to win initiative to use the ring.

no you dont, you can use it before the fight has started.

[Tyndmyr]

no you dont, you can use it before the fight has started.

Oh, if you do that, then the wizard likely already has all it's buffs up.

Additionally, most people would define "casting a spell targetting the other person" as starting the fight. If this is NOT the case, a fell drained sonic snap at level 1 should settle the issue.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Granted, but it's a plan that's remarkably likely to not work, so it's mostly a waste of WBL.

On the other hand, wasting a few spells...meh. You have lots at 20. AND WBL.

But if the fighter still surives the first round, he could still win.

[Hirax]

no you dont, you can use it before the fight has started.

What nonsense is this? That's akin to saying that you get to go first because you said what you want to do first at a table.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Oh, if you do that, then the wizard likely already has all it's buffs up.

Additionally, most people would define "casting a spell targetting the other person" as starting the fight. If this is NOT the case, a fell drained sonic snap at level 1 should settle the issue.

Yes, but both combatants still have to follow the rules stated for the fight. They were not fleshed out proply.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

What nonsense is this? That's akin to saying that you get to go first because you said what you want to do first at a table.

It's called surpise round, its there for a reason.

[Hirax]

It's called surpise round, its there for a reason.

Why are you giving the fighter a surprise round? You know what, nevermind. :smallsigh:

[sonofzeal]

It's called surpise round, its there for a reason.
Please, for the sake of our collective sanity, can we just agree that anything the Wizard can pull off more easily than the Fighter is not a way for the Fighter to win? I would have hoped that would have been self-evident....

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Please, for the sake of our collective sanity, can we just agree that anything the Wizard can pull off more easily than the Fighter is not a way for the Fighter to win? I would have hoped that would have been self-evident....

And you believe that a wizard doing a one round kill is honourable. Yes i know it's a "Can a wizard fight a fighter by just using buffs in a melee combat to make him better at using swords". There was nothing about it saying it was a arena match. This could be one fight in many the wizard has to do.

Alot of the combos that were stated went against what the orginal question was.

[Togo]

Incidentally, this does nothing against the build I originally posted. Iot7v shrugs off the AMF due to veil, ignores the grapple via discharging Heart of Air for FoM, and just continues to hit you.

How are you ignoring the AMF? From my reading the veil does nothing to prevent AMF once you are inside the area of effect, and certainly wouldn't stop any AMF effects at touch range.


And, frankly, Gold Dragons are remarkably good at grappling anyway.

Sure, and once you start including additional material, you may well be getting grappled by one. There's a reason the OP was wizard versus fighter.



Please, for the sake of our collective sanity, can we just agree that anything the Wizard can pull off more easily than the Fighter is not a way for the Fighter to win? I would have hoped that would have been self-evident....

It's a valid objection to the idea the wizard would win, though. Things that both of them can do to defend themselves are still some thing that one can do to to defend themselves against the other.

[Augmental]

Which is my point... wizards are extremely temporary classes, everything they do vanishes after a while. Fighters can continue going long after a wizard has run out of spells, they're built for endurance, not burst. If a wizard couldn't kill one measly fighter with his ENTIRE spellbook, there'd be no purpose to even having a caster. A wizard is always going to have an edge in an arena competition where he can unload his entire spell arsenal because arenas remove a wizard's greatest weakness: his spell per day limit.

No more is there a need to consider not wasting a spell that might be needed later, conservation is out the window. Furthermore, the spell list can be custom tailored to being impervious to melee, while the fighter has very limited anti-magic customization available that isn't standard par for the course, and the magical defenses he does boast hurt his offensive build due to feats being less flexible than the wizard's spell list. And while standard fare is in play, the wizard can dump all his "useless" party buffs and utility magics to grab even more defense and attack spells, all to squander on this one meaningless duel that breaches the very design of D&D and the purpose of a party-based system.

It's like asking who would win in a duel, a fire elemental or a water elemental, but neglecting the fact that the match is taking place underwater.

This is a thought exercise, not an actual game on a tabletop.

[Tyndmyr]

It's called surpise round, its there for a reason.

And that reason is...you have some viable means to get surprise. You have outlined no such means for the fighter, so he does not get it.


And you believe that a wizard doing a one round kill is honourable. Yes i know it's a "Can a wizard fight a fighter by just using buffs in a melee combat to make him better at using swords". There was nothing about it saying it was a arena match. This could be one fight in many the wizard has to do.

Alot of the combos that were stated went against what the orginal question was.

Your definition of honor is a strange one, sir. Hitting hard is not usually considered dishonorable.


How are you ignoring the AMF? From my reading the veil does nothing to prevent AMF once you are inside the area of effect, and certainly wouldn't stop any AMF effects at touch range.

The veils are inherited from the layers of a prismatic wall. Thus, one of the properties is "lol, no" to AMF. Since we've got one that blocks magic, and AMF is an emanation...personal buffs are all immune to the AMF unless you pass through the veils. And that's a remarkably bad idea.


Sure, and once you start including additional material, you may well be getting grappled by one. There's a reason the OP was wizard versus fighter.

Additional material? My original buff list included PaO. So, the wizard IS a gold dragon.


It's a valid objection to the idea the wizard would win, though. Things that both of them can do to defend themselves are still some thing that one can do to to defend themselves against the other.

Nah. ring of wish for 'lol, I win' before the fight starts is not a legitimate strategy.

I agree that mutual defenses will likely exist but most defenses are easier for the wizard to acquire anyhow.

[Acanous]

If we give the Fighter a Surprise round, he likely won't be able to kill the wizard ANYWAY, unless A: They start within 30 feet of eachother (40 if he's got boots of striding, 50 if he also took Travel Devotion somewhere) and B: He's an ubercharger of some kind, who could one-shot the wizard with a single charge attack.

You don't get your full attack on a surprise round. That fighter, getting a surprise round, gets one shot. The Wizard gets Time stop given the same.

[Togo]

The veils are inherited from the layers of a prismatic wall. Thus, one of the properties is "lol, no" to AMF.

Sorry, that doesn't follow. While the veils are based on prismatic wall/sphere, nothing in the description of the Veils suggests that they are immune to AMF in the same way as a primastic wall is. The veil that blocks spells will block spells, of course.


Since we've got one that blocks magic, and AMF is an emanation...personal buffs are all immune to the AMF unless you pass through the veils. And that's a remarkably bad idea..

Not particularly. You've only got one veil up, via reactive veil, at the start of the fight. Presuambly the spell-blocking one. So that's a will save or go to another plane, which is a draw at best*, and then the fighter is through the veil and most of your build shuts down. You're taking a big risk there.


Additional material? My original buff list included PaO. So, the wizard IS a gold dragon. ..

Sure, you're adding prestige classes, like IotSV. If you're not using pure wizard, then the fighter isn't constrained to pure fighter, and we can start talking about ranger/MoMFs builds, who can also be a gold dragon, and are rather better at it. But then we're really ignoring the original fighter versus wizard both armed with swords premise.

*unless you want to say that getting the other person out of melee range is a win, in which case all the fighter needs is a sucessful bull rush.

[Togo]

If we give the Fighter a Surprise round, he likely won't be able to kill the wizard ANYWAY, unless A: They start within 30 feet of eachother (40 if he's got boots of striding, 50 if he also took Travel Devotion somewhere) and B: He's an ubercharger of some kind, who could one-shot the wizard with a single charge attack.

You don't get your full attack on a surprise round. That fighter, getting a surprise round, gets one shot. The Wizard gets Time stop given the same.

Or the fighter could use his surprise round to move and activate a belt of battle, just as the wizard has been doing, and then full attack him anyway.

The gratuitous surprise round is the problem.

[Tyndmyr]

Sorry, that doesn't follow. While the veils are based on prismatic wall/sphere, nothing in the description of the Veils suggests that they are immune to AMF in the same way as a primastic wall is. The veil that blocks spells will block spells, of course.

Read the text of Iot7v carefully. It's veils act as the layer of the wall. The wall is immune to AMF, and so are they. It specifically references the spell.


Not particularly. You've only got one veil up, via reactive veil, at the start of the fight. Presuambly the spell-blocking one. So that's a will save or go to another plane, which is a draw at best*, and then the fighter is through the veil and most of your build shuts down. You're taking a big risk there.

Why on earth would you assume that the fighter gets to go first? Wizards crush it on going first. Assume two veils.

Additionally, I don't see how a draw is a reasonable conclusion from being shunted to another plane. Other planes are often hostile to start with, and removing your opponent from the field of battle generally sounds like a win, even if death is not involved. This is especially true if your fighter has no way to return.


Sure, you're adding prestige classes, like IotSV. If you're not using pure wizard, then the fighter isn't constrained to pure fighter, and we can start talking about ranger/MoMFs builds, who can also be a gold dragon, and are rather better at it. But then we're really ignoring the original fighter versus wizard both armed with swords premise.

Fighter + fighter Prcs is reasonable.

Ranger + ranger Prcs is rather less so. And nah, a wizard would still spank a wildshape ranger + MoMF.

And I don't need a single prestige class to use PaO. So, this counter-argument is irrelevant to your original issue.


*unless you want to say that getting the other person out of melee range is a win, in which case all the fighter needs is a sucessful bull rush.

Wings of Cover says no to that.


Or the fighter could use his surprise round to move and activate a belt of battle, just as the wizard has been doing, and then full attack him anyway.

The gratuitous surprise round is the problem.

Surprise round is ludicrous to begin with...but belt of battle is also wildly inferior to time stop.

Also, the BoB takes a swift to activate, and strictly speaking you only have a standard.

[Kazyan]

Okay, this has been bugging me. Here's the relevant Moment of Prescience text.


This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.

You cannot MoP the initiative roll. Also, nope, initiative doesn't count as an opposed ability check; the Inititave and Opposed Check entries in the SRD do not quite mesh. For one thing, initiative isn't always between two characters. (If the wizard is taking their Hummingbird, then it certainly isn't here.)

...anyway, I don't have an argument. Just wanted to correct something.

[BlueEyes]

Okay, this has been bugging me. Here's the relevant Moment of Prescience text.



You cannot MoP the initiative roll. Also, nope, initiative doesn't count as an opposed ability check; the Inititave and Opposed Check entries in the SRD do not quite mesh. For one thing, initiative isn't always between two characters. (If the wizard is taking their Hummingbird, then it certainly isn't here.)

...anyway, I don't have an argument. Just wanted to correct something.
Sorry, but an Initiative check is a Dexterity check. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm)

[hoverfrog]

A wizard that lets himself go toe to toe with a fighter has failed as a wizard. Escape and return later when you can nuke the fighter from orbit with an army of allies and summoned beasties as backup.

[Garan]

I think this is a pretty good proof for the idea of the "combat triangle", which is essentially rocks-paper-scissors for fantasy games. Magic>Melee>Ranged>Magic. So it is natural for a mage to beat a melee person. Put them at range, and the ranger will have a much higher initiative, so it will have it's dodge bonus to AC, and can ready an action that will deal a tonne of damage and disrupt the mage's spell.
But this is rather off-topic. Basically, anytime the wizard needs to cast a spell/buff himself, he can always take a five-foot-step, and if he can't, then he just casts defensively (maximum DC 24 for a ninth level spell).

[Kazyan]

Sorry, but an Initiative check is a Dexterity check. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm)

But it's not an opposed Dexterity check, which is the point. And the phrase "opposed ability or skill check" makes so sense if you parse the 'and' to allow it, because what the heck is an "opposed ability".

[Hand_of_Vecna]

@Garan: How does range trump magic? Magic has lots of specifically anti range defenses and most of it's anti melee defenses work against range. Besides Magic can outrange a ranged character or close any distance instantly or move to another plane and attack from there. Full casters vs all types of mundanes in D&D is more like:

Nuclear Weapons>>>>>rock<paper<scissors<rock<<<<<<<Planet destroying lasers fired from space.

@CrazyHedgeWizard You're insta win wish

1. Is well off list of acceptable wish uses.

2. Even if allowed it would allow a will save which the wizard would pass also it would probaly be considered mind affecting which the wizard will probably be immune to.


3. Attacking the wizard outside of an arena type situation means fighting him fully buffed in which case there is no question that the wizard will win handily he'll be able to do it in melee if that's what he prebuffed to do.

People are assuming this is an arena match because the only reasons for a wizard to do this are gits and shiggles(tis includes showing off and most other IC roleplaying reasons, an arena where he's agreed to the conditions, or not wanting to waste high level spell slots on a trivial encounter when he has plenty of strong all day buffs running.

Again I'd like to see the OP post something about this because ya, if the wizard starts out unbuffed and the fighter spends all his WBL to cast spells and fights like a wizard then yes he can quite possibly win because wizard trumps fighter so hard that someone acting like a wizard can beat someone far more powerful that is acting like a fighter.

[Kazyan]

Actually, how about we just get two people to build a Fighter 20 and Wizard 20, then do an arena match? That should further the discussion, at least.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, how about we just get two people to build a Fighter 20 and Wizard 20, then do an arena match? That should further the discussion, at least.

We'd need the rules to be significantly more clearly defined for that. That said, I'd gladly roll up the wizard once rules are established.

[Kazyan]

We'd need the rules to be significantly more clearly defined for that. That said, I'd gladly roll up the wizard once rules are established.

The rules need to be more clearly defined for the debate to be resolved, really. Once anyone figures out what Wizard A would do, the discussion becomes about Wizard B.

I could make the fighter, but, erm, I'm not exactly an Iron Chef here.

[Sudain]

Fighter Ring of 3 wishes:

Buy from NPCs before hand hand and use if possible: Symbol of Death/Symbol of Weakness. Perhaps on a nice token gift as a reward for some quest or as tribe to this 'powerful wizard'
Wishes:
1) Clenched Fist/Power Word Stun/Polymorph Any Object - Take you pick. All of them should disable the wizard at range.
2) Temporal Stasis/Irresistible Dance. That should finish the wizard off.

Alternatively:
Find/buy a gem of value worth what you need for Trap the Soul.
1) Wish for Trap the Soul to be cast on the gem.
2) Wish for a sympathy to be cast on the gem.
3) Wait. :)


Alternatively again:
Use some ranged delivery system to deploy: Dust of Sneezing and Choking
Or just pay some smuck to deliver it to the wizard and rush in.

If a fighter is going challenge a guy who can re-shape reality on a whim then the standard bar-brawl fight tactics will NOT work. He needs to think smarter. Only after the wizard is disabled/distracted/frying-poor-peasants-you-setup-as-the-scape-goat should you consider attacking.

[Tyndmyr]

The rules need to be more clearly defined for the debate to be resolved, really. Once anyone figures out what Wizard A would do, the discussion becomes about Wizard B.

I could make the fighter, but, erm, I'm not exactly an Iron Chef here.

Yeah, we need some sort of hard and fast rules, or we all go round in circles.

Shall we say...1000 foot cube of level ground(prime material and coterminous ethereal planes), contestants starting 400 feet away from each other in the middle? Leaving counts as losing. Dying, or otherwise ending up in a state where no longer taking actions is possible counts as loosing. Both losing as a result of the same action counts as a draw. No spells that target the opposing player(or targetted spells at areas that happen to hit the player. No fireballs, no magic missiles, you get the idea). Arena match, so both know it's coming, no issues with surprise, thataway. Level 20, standard WBL(level adjust/whatever reduces your starting level, of course)

Sound like a good start? I dunno what else you'd need, but it seems reasonable, anyhow. Long story short, I want them to actually kill by hitting each other. Buffs and stuff to not die, boost damage, and things like abilities that kill buffs on a hit? Fine. But if it's "beg god to kill him for me", it's not really a legit duel.

[Togo]

Read the text of Iot7v carefully. It's veils act as the layer of the wall. The wall is immune to AMF, and so are they. It specifically references the spell.

I'm afraid I disagree. The Iot7v does not reference the wall, it references the layers of the wall. Each veil is similar to a layer of a prismatic wall. The effects of the wall itself, such as it's immunity to AMF and it's ability to blind people who look at it, are not referenced. Given that they have completely written out the effects of each veil, and that there is actually a fair bit of variation between the veils and the spell, I don't really think you can argue for further effects that aren't linked to a particular colour.


Why on earth would you assume that the fighter gets to go first? Wizards crush it on going first. Assume two veils.

I'm not. I'm assuming the wizard would carry out the actions described, rather than waste their standard action putting up two veils. Hence one veil, from reactive warding. If the wizard manages to one-shot the fighter, then the veils are an irrelvence in any case.


Additionally, I don't see how a draw is a reasonable conclusion from being shunted to another plane. Other planes are often hostile to start with, and removing your opponent from the field of battle generally sounds like a win, even if death is not involved..

That makes things much easier for the fighter, and violates the rule that the wizard has to defeat the fighter through melee, rather than spells.


This is especially true if your fighter has no way to return.. At 20th level? Dream on.


Fighter + fighter Prcs is reasonable.

Reasonable or not, it's still off topic. It's not the challenge from the OP.


Ranger + ranger Prcs is rather less so. And nah, a wizard would still spank a wildshape ranger + MoMF.

Hm.. Depends on the circumstances, and who was playing them. If I were to try to defeat a wizard using a non-primary-spellcasting character, that's probably what I'd choose to use. The chances that I'd suceed are very much down to the DM, the set up, what's allowed and what's not, etc. since a lot of the classic wizard win buttons are taken from optimisation discussions, where the important thing is to use rules interestingly and imaginatively rather than a contest, where the important thing is to usethe rules in a way that's beyond criticism.


And I don't need a single prestige class to use PaO.

My original issue was that you claimed noone had tried to defeat your Io7V build. The dragon just illustrates the problem of straying from the challenge in the OP.


Wings of Cover says no to that.

It's an immediate action which may or may not have already been used, and it only blocks a single attack.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

What do you propose the rules would be? I think alot of this discussion is fueled by people having different ideas about the "rules of engagement".

1. Are all day buffs assumed?

2. I think we can safely assume no buff rounds.

3. Are we starting in melee range? Base to base? At the outer limit of the longer reach?

4. Can the wizard be built for this ie have mostly melee feats.

5. Will the fighter have to be a serious build or can he be use WBL to be a wizard for one fight? If so, will X10 costs on consumables and 1/day items be enforced.

6. Does the wizard have to attack every round or does he simply have to do damage exclusively with melee. By extension does the wizard have to follow the fighter around the arena.

Also is this a competition in good faith IC for these combatants? It seems to me like alot of the pro fighter arguments depend on the wizard honestly trying to prove wizards can out melee fighters while the fighter uses any possible trick to win including useing backing up as CC since the wizard is apparently compelled to chase him rather than remove his ability run away.

[Kazyan]

Long story short, I want them to actually kill by hitting each other.

+1

Let's assume standard splatbook policy for the Playground: all WoTC sources are okay except the magazines. Optimization is assumed, but DCFS/Bag-of-rats/Bag-of-solars is not. I don't have any ideas on making this more specific.

[Karoht]

I would love to see some maths on just the Wizard, no WBL, armed with a Quarterstaff, smacking something, with a truck load of buffs currently active. And see yet more maths on that swing VS a Fighter with WBL.
I think this might be more of what the OP had in mind, just guessing though.

But that probably gets pretty boring. I wouldn't expect anyone to actually do all that.

A Fighter who is geared out and specialized in taking out a Wizard, I could see being a royal pain in the neck for that Wizard, but my money is still on the Wizard.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm afraid I disagree. The Iot7v does not reference the wall, it references the layers of the wall. Each veil is similar to a layer of a prismatic wall. The effects of the wall itself, such as it's immunity to AMF and it's ability to blind people who look at it, are not referenced. Given that they have completely written out the effects of each veil, and that there is actually a fair bit of variation between the veils and the spell, I don't really think you can argue for further effects that aren't linked to a particular colour.

The wall is composed of it's layers. If you destroy all the layers, the wall is gone. There is no intrinsic "wallness" without the layers.


I'm not. I'm assuming the wizard would carry out the actions described, rather than waste their standard action putting up two veils. Hence one veil, from reactive warding. If the wizard manages to one-shot the fighter, then the veils are an irrelvence in any case.

Those actions would usually consist of casting Time Stop, and then gleefully casting whatever they want to cast.


That makes things much easier for the fighter, and violates the rule that the wizard has to defeat the fighter through melee, rather than spells.

The wizard IS meleeing. It is not his fault if the fighter kills himself on his buffs. Suicide is also a loss, even though it doesn't result from the enemy meleeing you.


At 20th level? Dream on.

Fighters are not typically adept at plane-hopping. Oh, you can of course invest some of your WBL in fixing this...but yet again, you are pitting WBL against class features. This is not a winning formula to use constantly.


Reasonable or not, it's still off topic. It's not the challenge from the OP.

He hasn't clarified details much at all. I can't honestly say either way. It was a two sentence post, and he didn't even bother with correct spelling. Relying too heavily on that is probably not going to get you to clear rules.


Hm.. Depends on the circumstances, and who was playing them. If I were to try to defeat a wizard using a non-primary-spellcasting character, that's probably what I'd choose to use. The chances that I'd suceed are very much down to the DM, the set up, what's allowed and what's not, etc. since a lot of the classic wizard win buttons are taken from optimisation discussions, where the important thing is to use rules interestingly and imaginatively rather than a contest, where the important thing is to usethe rules in a way that's beyond criticism.

Nah. I've played an Iot7v in an actual game before. Also used tons of these spells before. Set the rules up clearly beforehand, and it shouldn't be very DM-dependant.


My original issue was that you claimed noone had tried to defeat your Io7V build. The dragon just illustrates the problem of straying from the challenge in the OP.

It's not straying. I polymorph into a dragon, then melee your face off. That's what wizards DO.


It's an immediate action which may or may not have already been used, and it only blocks a single attack.

As a counter to a bull-rush? How many times are you going to bull rush me in a turn?

[Sudain]

Yeah, we need some sort of hard and fast rules, or we all go round in circles.

... Arena match, so both know it's coming, no issues with surprise, thataway. Level 20, standard WBL(level adjust/whatever reduces your starting level, of course)

Sound like a good start? ...

I disagree that that constitutes a fair fight. If the wizard knows it's coming, even if it's 24 hours in advance, or 2 hours he can completely tailor his spells to this encounter giving him a overpowering advantage(Contingency Shapechange anyone?). The fighter only needs 1 standard action(6 seconds?) to get ready. (I'm assuming no special WBL on either side and everyone's fully healed).

To make it fair(er) pick spells that go along with a build NOT specifically tailored to anti-melee. Then re-run it with the wizard being allowed to specifically tailor their spells. Or have the wizard be partially depleted.

[Tyndmyr]

+1

Let's assume standard splatbook policy for the Playground: all WoTC sources are okay except the magazines. Optimization is assumed, but DCFS/Bag-of-rats/Bag-of-solars is not. I don't have any ideas on making this more specific.

This seems reasonable. Ima tell you right now, I'm not going to have summoning of any kind to deal damage, etc to you. Pulling in other things to hit you /= hitting you.

I would say that both the fighter and wizard can be built for this(heroics makes this kind of skewed against the fighter otherwise). 10x consumables seems fair, per usual one shot rules. Partially charged wands allowed or no? Im ok either way on that...

Also, nobody has to follow the other around the arena. If they want to withdraw, or whatever, for a few rounds, they can. Of course, it's an empty arena, so that only buys you so much.


I disagree that that constitutes a fair fight. If the wizard knows it's coming, even if it's 24 hours in advance, or 2 hours he can completely tailor his spells to this encounter giving him a massive advantage. The fighter only needs 1 standard action(6 seconds?) to get ready. (I'm assuming no special WBL on either side and everyone's fully healed).

To make it fair(er) pick spells that go along with a build NOT specifically tailored to anti-melee. Then re-run it with the wizard being allowed to specifically tailor their spells. Or have the wizard be partially depleted.


I meant that as a surprise round clarification, not a buff rule.

Let's say that any buffs with a total of a 8+ hr duration can be up pre-battle. That's enough to cover an entire workday, and means that you'd have it up even in a surprise situation. By "total of 8 hrs" I mean, if it's a 4 hr duration spell, you'd have to blow two slots on it. So, in practice, nobody is going to have rounds/lvl stuff up prefight

[Karoht]

If it's going to be an arena match, can we add in a special rule here?

Both parties much deal the deciding blow with a melee weapon, and the principle effect which defeats the other party must not be a stored spell, or the fight ends in a draw/disqualification? Or something to that effect?

[Tyndmyr]

If it's going to be an arena match, can we add in a special rule here?

Both parties much deal the deciding blow with a melee weapon, and the principle effect which defeats the other party must not be a stored spell, or the fight ends in a draw/disqualification? Or something to that effect?

I think you're worrying overmuch about spellstoring, but sure.

I admit, I have a temptation to write up a truenamer with a greataxe, just because it'd be hilarious to see the matchup.

I assume no other base classes, but racial paragons are fine?

[Essence_of_War]

*makes popcorn*

This sounds like it will be fun!:smallsmile:

[Hirax]

But it's not an opposed Dexterity check, which is the point. And the phrase "opposed ability or skill check" makes so sense if you parse the 'and' to allow it, because what the heck is an "opposed ability".

That makes no sense, of course initiative is an opposed check.

[Little Brother]

I could build the fighter, if nobody else wants too. I do like to think I am relatively good at optimization.

What constitutes a "Fighter PrC?" Full BAB? Referencing fighters in the flavor text? What about multiclassing in fighter-ish classes?

The definition I will be using, until I am informed otherwise, is "The majority of the levels must be fighter, and any non-fighter levels must be classes designed for melee and cannot cast spells/invocations/powers/etc." Is this horrible run-on sentence that would get me beaten by any english teacher acceptable?

[Spuddles]

If a fighter enters the arena with antimagic field up, and more available, is there any way he cannot force a draw?

Tinfoil hat seems like it forces a draw to me, as what does the wizard do once the fighter closes to melee?

This is ignoring the initiative and prebuff issue, but follow this out:
Fighter has AMF up. What does wizard do? Is he allowed to attempt to disjoin? If not, does he have a mundane reach weapon that can reach the fighter through the AMF? Given the rules of the competition, are there any offensive actions the wizard can take?

Fighters turn. He can teleport as a swift and move action, followed by a charge at the wizard, assuming the wizard is not flying. If wizard is flying, just teleport under wizard and grapple. Remember, the fighter has a an amf up, and is using shadow jaunt etc. as purely extraordinary abilities to teleport in an AMF.

If wizard is flying, the wizard can't do much once the fighter gets close. Tin foil wont help here.

If the wizard is grounded, the wizard is now under tinfoil and has an immediate action. What does the wizard do with that immediate action that won't forfeit the competition?

[Togo]

The wall is composed of it's layers. If you destroy all the layers, the wall is gone. There is no intrinsic "wallness" without the layers.

The description of prismatic wall has several features that are not features of any particular layer, but are features of the wall as a whole. The individual veils have similar but not identical properties to the layers of the wall, and their full effects are described in detail in the text. The effects of immunity to anti-magic and causing blindness are not features of the individual layers, and these are not described in the text.

I can see why you might feel that veils should have antimagic immunity, but it's not actually there in the class description. It's not RAW.




Hm.. Depends on the circumstances, and who was playing them. If I were to try to defeat a wizard using a non-primary-spellcasting character, that's probably what I'd choose to use. The chances that I'd suceed are very much down to the DM, the set up, what's allowed and what's not, etc. since a lot of the classic wizard win buttons are taken from optimisation discussions, where the important thing is to use rules interestingly and imaginatively rather than a contest, where the important thing is to usethe rules in a way that's beyond criticism.

Nah. I've played an Iot7v in an actual game before. Also used tons of these spells before. Set the rules up clearly beforehand, and it shouldn't be very DM-dependant.

Well as someone who also played the game before, I suggest you may underestimating the situation. We may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Invader]

I could build the fighter, if nobody else wants too. I do like to think I am relatively good at optimization.

What constitutes a "Fighter PrC?" Full BAB? Referencing fighters in the flavor text? What about multiclassing in fighter-ish classes?

The definition I will be using, until I am informed otherwise, is "The majority of the levels must be fighter, and any non-fighter levels must be classes designed for melee and cannot cast spells/invocations/powers/etc." Is this horrible run-on sentence that would get me beaten by any english teacher acceptable?

I would have to say that fighter 20 vs wizard 20 is just the core class.

The bigger question is what "buffs" the wizard qualifies for. If its just all wizard spells then the wizard is going to win (the majority of times) even if the fighter goes first, IMO.

[Togo]

If a fighter enters the arena with antimagic field up, and more available, is there any way he cannot force a draw?

Tinfoil hat seems like it forces a draw to me, as what does the wizard do once the fighter closes to melee?


Tin foil hat has a number of problems.

It won't necessarily form upright, the ground isn't necessarily level. An awkwardly precariously balanced hat may simply not be an effective barrier, and potentially could be pushed over as a free action.

There is certainly no reason why the fighter can't sunder the hat.

The fighter could simply block the AMF himself temporarily, thus turning the hat back into a shruken object on the ground.

A tinfoil hat is a interesting idea for a buff, but I'm not convinced that it's a terribly pratical one.

[Randomguy]

To make it fair(er) pick spells that go along with a build NOT specifically tailored to anti-melee. Then re-run it with the wizard being allowed to specifically tailor their spells. Or have the wizard be partially depleted.

The proposed spell selection WASN'T tailored to be specifically anti melee. It was tailored to use melee. And considering that the entire purpose of the contest is to see if a wizard could beat a fighter in melee, and that no wizard in his right mind would go into melee without taking levels in gish classes, I'd say that it's pretty fair.



If wizard is flying, the wizard can't do much once the fighter gets close. Tin foil wont help here.

If the wizard is grounded, the wizard is now under tinfoil and has an immediate action. What does the wizard do with that immediate action that won't forfeit the competition?

Assuming the fighter can break through the hat (which is typically made of iron or an actual metal, not tinfoil) in a round and that the wizard has only that one immediate action then the obvious solution would be Celerity + time stop + teleport out of the hat + the Buffs that Hirax listed (another time stop might be necessary) + full attack from outside the antimagic field. And the wizard would probably have a spiked chain, if not a sizing skillful spiked chain.

As for the teleporting to the flying wizard, the solution would be to fly at a hight of more than 50 feet, so that the martial teleporting maneuvers can't reach.

[Hirax]

If a fighter enters the arena with antimagic field up, and more available, is there any way he cannot force a draw?


The wizard I posted laughs at your preexisting AMF via his 60' reach, unless you can find a way to go first.

[Spuddles]

Tin foil hat has a number of problems.

It won't necessarily form upright, the ground isn't necessarily level. An awkwardly precariously balanced hat may simply not be an effective barrier, and potentially could be pushed over as a free action.

There is certainly no reason why the fighter can't sunder the hat.

The fighter could simply block the AMF himself temporarily, thus turning the hat back into a shruken object on the ground.

A tinfoil hat is a interesting idea for a buff, but I'm not convinced that it's a terribly pratical one.

Tinfoil hat makes sense if you can immediate cast celerity and teleport to safety. Very wizardy of you. But in current situation, I would rule that as a forfeit.


The wizard I posted laughs at your preexisting AMF via his 60' reach, unless you can find a way to go first.

It would have to be 60 feet of mundane chain, otherwise it shrinks to nothing when it hits the AMF.

[Hirax]

Reach is determined by your size, not the size of your weapon. The damage would shrink, but that's it. Furthermore, even if it did reduce your reach, it wouldn't matter, because emanations sit on a grid intersection, so on one side of the fighter the AMF only sticks out 5 feet, meaning that a medium sized character with a spiked chain could still hit you.

edit: you could also just rip off a tree branch, rip a tree out of the ground, pull off a door, or anything really, you only need any makeshift weapon to have a reach of 30'

[Answerer]

It would have to be 60 feet of mundane chain, otherwise it shrinks to nothing when it hits the AMF.
No.

Spell effects, unless otherwise noted, apply to creatures – and, moreover, there is no actual rule that states that a creature attacking into the area of effect of a spell without entering it is affected by the spell.

This doesn't necessarily make sense, but there is no requirement that the rules have to. They usually don't, in fact.

[Spuddles]

Reach is determined by your size, not the size of your weapon. The damage would shrink, but that's it. Furthermore, even if it did reduce your reach, it wouldn't matter, because emanations sit on a grid intersection, so on one side of the fighter the AMF only sticks out 5 feet, meaning that a medium sized character with a spiked chain could still hit you.

edit: you could also just rip off a tree branch, rip a tree out of the ground, pull off a door, or anything really, you only need any makeshift weapon to have a reach of 30'

If you are relying on magic to reach and hit the fighter in an AMF, then it will definitely not work, as your claw or whatever will turn back into a frail wizard fist. Good catch on the grid intersections, though.


No.

Spell effects, unless otherwise noted, apply to creatures – and, moreover, there is no actual rule that states that a creature attacking into the area of effect of a spell without entering it is affected by the spell.

This doesn't necessarily make sense, but there is no requirement that the rules have to. They usually don't, in fact.
The last line of amf suggests otherwise, but I could see this more permissive reading.

[Answerer]

The last line of amf suggests otherwise, but I could see this more permissive reading.
In terms of D&D, you are only in the area if you are occupying one of its squares. That line can only apply to Large and larger creatures, since only they can occupy more than one square (and thus be partially in and partially out of the field). Nowhere in D&D does reaching into an area of effect trigger anything for you.

[Togo]

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.

The chain can only reach the target because it has been enchanted. By RAW, this effect is reduced when in the AMF, and it no longer has the reach to hit the target.

The chain has a 10 reach. The AMF has a radius of 10'. The chain can't reach the target unless it has been magically made bigger, and the made bigger effect goes away in the AMF.

Now what you could do is carry around a large or huge spiked chain, probably in a portable hole, and retrieve it once you change size.

[Answerer]

The chain can only reach the target because it has been enchanted. By RAW, this effect is reduced when in the AMF, and it no longer has the reach to hit the target.

The chain has a 10 reach. The AMF has a radius of 10'. The chain can't reach the target unless it has been magically made bigger, and the made bigger effect goes away in the AMF.

Now what you could do is carry around a large or huge spiked chain, probably in a portable hole, and retrieve it once you change size.
Nope.

By RAW, the chain never enters the area. You are only in the area if you change squares so that you are in it.

[Randomguy]

If the spiked chain trick fails because of the antimagic field, the fully buffed wizard could then just cast heroics a couple of times for Brutal Throw and possibly Power Throw, and then pull out a portable hole full of giant boulders. The giant boulders were, of course, small mountains hit by shrink item, so they would become even bigger in an antimagic field.


Shrinking boulders to drop on AMF'ed opponents is actually a common wizard tactic, and there's no reason for a wizard that likes turning huge wouldn't just shrink bigger boulders.

[Dr.Epic]

@Vilpich: That'd be right.

[rules-lawyer]Again, how do you define buffing? I think we need an actual list of spells (not allowed. Not to mention what sort of items are they carrying? A fighter would have a better selection of armor and weapons which is a huge advantage since they're just beating on each other.[/rules-lawyer]

[BlueEyes]

Nope.

By RAW, the chain never enters the area. You are only in the area if you change squares so that you are in it.
In order to hurt the Fighter, the chain has to touch him. Which means it does enter the area.

[Answerer]

In order to hurt the Fighter, the chain has to touch him. Which means it does enter the area.
That is not, in fact, in the rules. Combat is heavily abstracted, and at no point does a weapon enter another square in order to make an attack. That's how the game works.

[Garan]

@Garan: How does range trump magic? Magic has lots of specifically anti range defenses and most of it's anti melee defenses work against range. Besides Magic can outrange a ranged character or close any distance instantly or move to another plane and attack from there. Full casters vs all types of mundanes in D&D is more like:

Nuclear Weapons>>>>>rock<paper<scissors<rock<<<<<<<Planet destroying lasers fired from space.


Ranger has a maximum range of 1100 feet with a composite longbow. It definately will win initiative since it has a high dexterity. All it has to do is ready an action to riddle the wizard with holes as soon as it starts a spell,and the wizard is useless, not to mention that it has very low health.

[TuggyNE]

Ranger has a maximum range of 1100 feet with a composite longbow. It definately will win initiative since it has a high dexterity. All it has to do is ready an action to riddle the wizard with holes as soon as it starts a spell,and the wizard is useless, not to mention that it has very low health.

Off the top of my head, wind wall, protection from arrows, nerveskitter, celerity, foresight, moment of prescience, hummingbird familiar.

No, sadly, a Ranger (or archer Fighter) cannot win initiative against a competent Wizard at most level ranges, is ineffective even with initiative, and is next to powerless without.

[Little Brother]

Off the top of my head, wind wall, protection from arrows, nerveskitter, celerity, foresight, moment of prescience, hummingbird familiar.

No, sadly, a Ranger (or archer Fighter) cannot win initiative against a competent Wizard at most level ranges, is ineffective even with initiative, and is next to powerless without.You forgot Dire Turtle.

With OLF, the hideous speed becomes irrelevant, so if you're just screwing around, there's no reason not to be in it all day.

That said, I think I built an archer with near the best chance possible a while ago(Without the Arcane 9s fighter or the like). Lemme see if I can dig it up...

EDIT: Two incomplete-ish builds I have saved notes of. Look mostly okay,

Dark Raptoran Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Targeteer Fighter 2/Ranger 6/Bard 3/WF Barbarian 1/Cragtop Archer 2/*SOMETHING 1*

17 BAB, assuming fractional

Feats: Darkstalker, Knowledge Devotion, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Far Shot, Wild Cohort, Mountain Warrior, Woodland Archery.

Targeteer; Favored enemy Arcanist and Humanoid(Human)

Gear: Intelligent +6 Belt of Magnificence (Stupid and with Blessing) 202k
Intelligent Vest of Legend 18k
Intelligent Weirdstone
Intelligent Splitting Energy Footbow of Songs if my math is right, 84930
Continuous AMF(198k)
And an Intelligent +5 Hide item 4500
Base stats: 10/16/12/14/10/14
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Wyrm of War
Stats: 6->12/(18)30->36/10->16/11->17/19->25/11->17
WF Barbarian 1/Targeteer Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Deepwood Sniper 10/Craptop Archer 2/Binder 1/XX 2

Feats:
Flaw 1:Dragonwrought
Flaw 2: EWP: Footbow
1:PBS
3:Far Shot
4:Weapon Focus:Footbow
Fighter Features: Sniper, Arrow Swarm
6:Woodland Archer
8:Precise Shot
9:Mountain Warrior
12:Manyshot(?)
12:Improved Rapidshot(?)
15:?
16:?
18:Improved Binding
20:Distance Shot

Items: +5 Dragonbone Splitting Distance Energy Footbow(220K~)
Dexterity Gloves +6(36k)
Strength Belt+6(36K)
Periapt of Wisdom+6(36k)
Weirdstone(250k)
+5 book of Dexterity137.5K
1 repositioned Boots of Battle(18K)
Feathered Wings (10k)

[Randomguy]

Ranger has a maximum range of 1100 feet with a composite longbow. It definately will win initiative since it has a high dexterity. All it has to do is ready an action to riddle the wizard with holes as soon as it starts a spell,and the wizard is useless, not to mention that it has very low health.

Long ranged wizard spells have a range of 1200 feet, so you're still at a disadvantage to the wizard in terms of range. And the wizad can teleport up close if he wants to. And even if you do win initiative, then you've got one full attack of arrows before the wizard puts up a wind wall.

And the rules on spot checks are kind of messed up, so you wouldn't be able to see the wizard at 1100 feet, if the wizard chose to hide.

In general, archery is kind of underpowered in 3.5. A well optimized, anti-wizard archer would be harder to fight (since they'd have the mage slayer feats to ignore miss chances, and an energy bow would ignore wind effects), and there are even arrow enchantments that can go through a wall of stone, but a wall of force or prismatic wall would still be a good counter to give the wizard time to summon something up, start blasting or teleport closer, and force arrows are stopped by forceward.

[Suddo]

So I didn't read the whole thread but I saw a couple of places where it was brought up that the Fighter could have an Anti-Magic Field Item. I would consider any time the fighter is using magic that you could use magic at the very least using something to take down the shield (disjunction I believe). Barring that the wizard is going to Time Stop & Buff his way to being bigger than the fighter could hope to be and that's without using Celerity and I'm pretty sure that the Wizard can out initiative the fighter.

[Hirax]

We may as well drop the AMF discussion. As pointed out, the wizard only needs 10' reach to hit the fighter from outside the AMF, which at colossal size can be obtained by picking up anything and using it as an improvised weapon. Or just carrying a spiked chain. Let's just agree to disagree about whether you can get 60' reach with a magically enlarged spiked chain simply because it doesn't matter at all.

For that matter, I question whether AMF is even in the spirit of the OP (though I suppose we've moved past that), because AMF is a debuff, it doesn't do anything to improve your ability to hit anyone. This is why in my setup I didn't cast anything like mirror image, either. It's also doubtful the fighter would have it up all day. Torcs have a low enough caster level that you'd need to buy a lot have them run all day, or 4 of them at CL 20. It's possible, but it's an astronomical stretch compared to a wizard with a couple extend rods and vest of the archmagi making foresight and shapechange last all day. Now I'm certainly not saying the fighter can't if they want to invest that much WBL into enough torcs to justify saying that it's up 12~ hours a day, but otherwise I don't see how you justify saying that the fighter had it up and running at the right time, and it seems like a poor use of resources, given that the AMF won't help.

[Togo]

That is not, in fact, in the rules. Combat is heavily abstracted, and at no point does a weapon enter another square in order to make an attack. That's how the game works.

Nope.

The weapon doesn't need to enter the area. The giant size and similar buffs have to have an effect that extends into the area. The improved size of the chain extends into area, which by the specifically called out rules of the AMF, means it's gets negated.

I understand the arguement you're making, which is the same that prevents people from disarming people who are hitting them from beyond their reach. But the AMF specifically extends not just to creatures, as you said, but to spell effects that extend inside the field. The increased size is an effect, and it is being extended inside the field.

As both I and Hirax have pointed out, there are several viable alternatives.

[sonofzeal]

Nope.

The weapon doesn't need to enter the area. The giant size and similar buffs have to have an effect that extends into the area. The improved size of the chain extends into area, which by the specifically called out rules of the AMF, means it's gets negated.

I understand the arguement you're making, which is the same that prevents people from disarming people who are hitting them from beyond their reach. But the AMF specifically extends not just to creatures, as you said, but to spell effects that extend inside the field. The increased size is an effect, and it is being extended inside the field.

As both I and Hirax have pointed out, there are several viable alternatives.
It's a bit of an awkward one. The rules don't really cover this case very well.

My understanding is that, RAW, the effect sits on the character, and as long as the character remains wholely outside the AMF, the effect is not.... uh, affected.

If a Ranger cast Hunter's Mercy on themself and then fired an arrow into the AMF, would the spell effect still work? If so, I think RAW the same applies to magically-granted Reach.