Monk Variants

[CIDE]

Hello there,

A guy in a game I'm DMing tried out the (Unarmed) Swordsage and it didn't fly for what he wanted. So, he's wishing to switch it up. Which after just one game in that campaign I'm not too worried about. So, I'm after the Dragon Magazine monk variants.

So far I've shown him the Tashalatora build, Wild Monk, Chaos Monk, and Holy Monk. I know there's a couple more out there but I haven't been able to find the rest.

Any of you guys know other issues to find the others?

[Waker]

What level are your players? If they are a few levels in, you could take one of the various "monk" PrCs like Fist of the Forest (CCha) or Shen (Drg 319). Neither of them require taking levels of Monk, but they give much of the same flavor.

[eggs]

Exemplars of Evil's Invisible Fist and the Champions of Valor WE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)'s Dark Moon Disciple are often worked in for power tweaks.

Pathfinder's Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) (and, more notably, its Archetypes) is somewhat backward-compatible. There are a few gems there that might be provide a bit more variety to your options (the only difficulty is translating CMB/CMD into 3e terms, and that's pretty straightforward).

Dreamscarred Press's Enlightened Monk (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/enlightened-monk#KiS) is a bit of a step up from the basic monk (though not a huge step), and is compatible with most of its ACFs/PrCs. DSP's revised Wild Talent (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/wild-talent-devotion) is typically the engine behind a workable build.

[CIDE]

The characters are level 4. Almost anything is allowed; even third party stuff. As long as it fits the setting. Which depending on where in the world jumps anywhere from dark ages to a steampunkish renaissance.

That said it'll be a little while before they get to the PrC's. And I've already shown the Shen (he loves it) for him to jump to later if he wanted.

On that note I've never actually gotten around to looking at fist of the forest. How very naughty of me, eh?

Thanks for all the input to. Not the examples I was looking for but they still definitely help.

[Empedocles]

Sorry to sort of jump in like this, but where is the holy monk variant?

[Menteith]

Wild Monk in Dragon Magazine #324 gives Wildshape, which is a great boost for the monk. If you're looking for general ACFs for the Monk, check out community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III. It's not a complete list, but it's pretty good about the options available.

For PrCs that can give Monks a power boost or some uniqueness, Shou Disciple from Unapproachable East allows Flurry of Blows in Light Armor, has a full BAB, and gives a faster Unarmed Strike damage progression which stacks with the normal Monk. If you're waiving alignment restrictions (or are fine with an evil character) the Soul Eater from Book of Vile Darkness is arguably one of the most powerful Monk PrCs, as it states that your touch inflicts a negative level on the target, with no save. Whether or not this applies to a Monk's unarmed strike, or if it takes a standard action isn't clear, but it can be a really flavorful way to boost power.

EDIT
By Holy Monk do you mean the Holy Strike ACF from Complete Champion, or are you talking about a different option?

[Curmudgeon]

Dragon # 331, page 89 has the Sidewinder Monk variant. That removes Slow Fall and Still Mind, Purity of Body, Abundant Step, and Empty Body. Instead you get a sneak attack progression (every 3 levels) and a venomous bite attack (with Quivering Palm replaced by a chance of fatal poisoning). Also the bonus feats are different. It's mostly better than the basic Monk, but not hugely so.

[Waker]

Well, a fairly simple "monk" build would be to go
Spirit Lion Barbarian/Tiger (Lion) Shen/Fist of the Forest
The character would be an savage who can transform into a lion man, wrestle with ghosts and hit people with a "stunning fist" that keys off of strength.
Would hardly be the most powerful build, but you have the admit that the visual is fun.

You might also like the Initiate of Draconic Mysteries on pg 132 of the Draconomicon. It's another PrC that gives you several of the monks abilities, while also giving some dragon flavor.

[eggs]

The characters are level 4. Almost anything is allowed; even third party stuff. As long as it fits the setting. Which depending on where in the world jumps anywhere from dark ages to a steampunkish renaissance.
If 3rd party is legit, I want to plug Secrets of Pact Magic's Empyrean Monk. It's basically a Monk/Binder (using SoPM's slightly altered Spirit Binding system) that strips out a bunch of the Monk's miscellaneous feats and abilities, but keeps the basics (unarmed damage, flurry, AC boost, evasion, SR) and gets to bind 9th level spirits (or 9 total levels of spirits; the gist is that it has access to level-appropriate magic effects).

And there's also AEG's 3.0 Arcane Monk (http://www.purpleduckgames.com/arcane-monk), which has a couple brokenness-related issues, but key its casting off a sane stat (probably Wis), put a cap on its spells per round, and use the 3.5 updates of its class features/spells, and you'd have a fun little gish class.

[White_Drake]

Just general build advice, if you get a level of Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures), and the Intuitive Attack feat, then you can get double Wisdom modifier on damage. If you throw in a level of Swordsage then you can also grab the Shadow Blade feat, to get you Dexterity modifier too. Alternately, you could just get Intuitive Attack and Shadow Blade to get both Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom on damage.

[Drelua]

Actually, Intuitive Attack only gives Wisdom to attack rolls, not damage, so there's no reason to take it with Shiba Protector.

[CIDE]

Sorry to sort of jump in like this, but where is the holy monk variant?

I just had it out a few days ago. Now I can't find it.


Wild Monk in Dragon Magazine #324 gives Wildshape, which is a great boost for the monk. If you're looking for general ACFs for the Monk, check out community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III. It's not a complete list, but it's pretty good about the options available.

For PrCs that can give Monks a power boost or some uniqueness, Shou Disciple from Unapproachable East allows Flurry of Blows in Light Armor, has a full BAB, and gives a faster Unarmed Strike damage progression which stacks with the normal Monk. If you're waiving alignment restrictions (or are fine with an evil character) the Soul Eater from Book of Vile Darkness is arguably one of the most powerful Monk PrCs, as it states that your touch inflicts a negative level on the target, with no save. Whether or not this applies to a Monk's unarmed strike, or if it takes a standard action isn't clear, but it can be a really flavorful way to boost power.

EDIT
By Holy Monk do you mean the Holy Strike ACF from Complete Champion, or are you talking about a different option?

I've read up on the shou disciple. Player wasn't interested in that (damn, he's picky...). Not an evil character either but I'll still need to go take a look at the Soul Eater PrC now. Just out of curiosity.

As for the Holy Monk it was another Dragon Magazine alternate for the monks. Like how the Wild Monk gave Wild Shape from a Druid the Holy Monk gave features of a Pally (or was it Cleric..?) to a Monk in exchange for some feats. Similar set up.



Dragon # 331, page 89 has the Sidewinder Monk variant. That removes Slow Fall and Still Mind, Purity of Body, Abundant Step, and Empty Body. Instead you get a sneak attack progression (every 3 levels) and a venomous bite attack (with Quivering Palm replaced by a chance of fatal poisoning). Also the bonus feats are different. It's mostly better than the basic Monk, but not hugely so.

Yeah, this is another I saw. Dragon Magazine had a series of these. Basically Monk+(insert other class here). This one obviously leaning towards the Rogue in some ways.


Well, a fairly simple "monk" build would be to go
Spirit Lion Barbarian/Tiger (Lion) Shen/Fist of the Forest
The character would be an savage who can transform into a lion man, wrestle with ghosts and hit people with a "stunning fist" that keys off of strength.
Would hardly be the most powerful build, but you have the admit that the visual is fun.

You might also like the Initiate of Draconic Mysteries on pg 132 of the Draconomicon. It's another PrC that gives you several of the monks abilities, while also giving some dragon flavor.


Character's already made. He's stuck on the monk for now so the Barbarian part isn't really going to help out. I've shown him the Shen too and he's interested in using one of the cat variants. Dragon stuff is out for this guy.

He's playing this character in ways that are all about flavor. And as I mentioned he's really @#$%#$! picky.

Also! Didn't you once before suggest a Mantis Shen build to me in another thread...?


If 3rd party is legit, I want to plug Secrets of Pact Magic's Empyrean Monk. It's basically a Monk/Binder (using SoPM's slightly altered Spirit Binding system) that strips out a bunch of the Monk's miscellaneous feats and abilities, but keeps the basics (unarmed damage, flurry, AC boost, evasion, SR) and gets to bind 9th level spirits (or 9 total levels of spirits; the gist is that it has access to level-appropriate magic effects).

And there's also AEG's 3.0 Arcane Monk (http://www.purpleduckgames.com/arcane-monk), which has a couple brokenness-related issues, but key its casting off a sane stat (probably Wis), put a cap on its spells per round, and use the 3.5 updates of its class features/spells, and you'd have a fun little gish class.

I allow third party content in my games as long as it fits the setting and the campaign. With the area they're in and what the party is composed of the stuff you mentioned would still be legit. I'll have to toss it his way.

[Waker]

Also! Didn't you once before suggest a Mantis Shen build to me in another thread...?

Some people like to suggest Unarmed Swordsage to replace Monk. I like to suggest Shen. So it's entirely possible.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's another Monk build... one that ACTUALLY uses the wotc monk class, and works fine 1-20!

If you a.) really really really really want to use the wotc Monk class rather than any of its fixes or patches AND b.) want to use unarmed strikes, then there are some things you can do...

Be a Human Monk of Ilmater (a Forgotten Realms Deity), who focuses on Unarmed Attacks and Wild Shape.

Use Wild Monk in Dragon Magazine #324. That gets you Wild Shape, so you can dump dex and str.

Use Raging Monk, from Dragon Magazine #310. (Get permission for Wild Monk and Raging Monk to combine, they normally don't, but the overlaps are minor)

Trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy from the SRD/UA, it is a barbarian ACF.

Use Sacred Strike from Dragon Magazine 346. Choose Ilmater, and Fight with Unarmed Strike. Get permission from the DM for it to work on Natural Attacks as well.

Use the lvl3 Monk Substitution level from Champions of Valor. (Note how that particular substitution does not specifically say it replaces Still Mind, which you already traded out, unlike some other stuff in that book -- it is just a substitution level.)

Use Invisible Fist option from Exemplars of Evil.

Use Resistant Body from Planar Handbook. Choose something that lots of monsters use, like Fire or cold or whatever.

Consider trading Resist Nature's Lure with some things taken from the Planar Druid substitution level in Planar Handbook, or the Iron Constitution option in the Cityscape Web Enhancement.

Make sure to pick up the Extra Rage feat from Complete Warrior, for more Whirling Frenzies! Maybe even Extra Smiting from Complete Warrior for more Sacred Strikes, if the DM lets it work on those.

Make sure to pick up some of the Wild Shape improving feats, like Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon), Exalted Wild Shape (Book of Exalted Deeds), Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn), or even Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species), and Multiattack (SRD/Monster Manual).

For the times where you don't have Pounce or lots of attacks on a standard action (cough Cryohydra) via Wild Shape, you might want to consider the Lion Tribe Warrior feat from the book Shining South. This lets you do a full attack after a charge with one of your weapons -- perhaps Unarmed Strike or Claw or Bite? It depends what form you will be in where you don't have Pounce...

Consider, refluffing Whirling Frenzy as something other than how it is described. Make it a more monk and zen focus sort of thing. Use flaws to pick up more feats if you can. Use Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel, especially the mobility based ones, and the tumbling stuff. Max Tumble. Also pay attention to the extra Skill Tricks in Dragon Magazine #357 when considering your skill tricks. Also consider Snap Kick from Tome of Battle, or Superior Unarmed Strike from the same, or Improved Natural Attack from Monster Manual.

Remember that there are magic items that can help you speak in wild shape, and Frozen Wild Shape, Draconic Wild Shape, and Exalted Wild Shape get you talking forms.

Also, there are other things other than Unarmed Swordsage, Tashalatora Monk, the Monk Remix here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122 ... you can make a Barbarian into a Monk. Consider this gem that Solo made: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=408878

[Curmudgeon]

Here's another Monk build... one that ACTUALLY uses the wotc monk class, and works fine 1-20!
...
Use Raging Monk, from Dragon Magazine #310. (Get permission for Wild Monk and Raging Monk to combine, they normally don't, but the overlaps are minor)

Trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy from the SRD/UA, it is a barbarian ACF.

If you're actually using the Monk class, how are you qualifying for a Barbarian-only ACF?
A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn’t gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains ... You're not actually using the Monk class, or the rules which apply to it, very much at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

He gets rage, and he trades that rage for something else. The Raging Monk was written without considering the idea of changing the rage for one of the Rage ACF's... but his rage is exactly like that of a barbarian, so it is reasonable to be able to trade it for ferocity or whirling frenzy or whatever else barbarians can trade rage for...

[Curmudgeon]

... but his rage is exactly like that of a barbarian, so it is reasonable to be able to trade it ...
That's the argument you make to your DM when you're asking for a house rule, but it's still a house rule, not a RAW-legal Monk variant.

[CIDE]

I'd allow ACF's like that to be traded (like the Wild Monk trading Wild shape for some sort of druid ACF dealing with wild shap) in my game. But....this player or the other Monk (yes, two monks in the game) aren't interested.

Second monk is going the psionic route anyway with a Githzerai.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, that build does ask for a few minor house rulings... but it doesn't DEPEND on any one of those asked for house rules.

[eggs]

Here's another Monk build... one that ACTUALLY uses the wotc monk class, and works fine 1-20!
If a build gives up the several class features 2-3 times each, and still relies on asking the DM for handouts, it's a bit of a stretch to say that it works.

[CIDE]

If a build gives up the several class features 2-3 times each, and still relies on asking the DM for handouts, it's a bit of a stretch to say that it works.

And Paizo thought they were safe by adding virtually nothing to the Monk for Pathfinder too...

IT STILL WORKS, RITE?!

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. Let me list the asked for things which could arguably be houserules...

1.) Let Wild Monk and Raging Monk stack, despite Raging Monk trading away Still Mind

2.) Let the Raging Monk Trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy.

3.) Be able to take the Champions of Valor substitution level, despite it possibly, arguably trading away Still Mind to take it.

4.) Let Sacred Strike work on some natural attacks, at least claw natural attacks

5.) Be able to trade away Resist Nature's Lure like a Druid could.

6.) Let Extra Smiting feat work on Sacred Strikes

7.) Let Extra Rage work on Whirling Frenzy

8.) Be able to take your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks after your iterative unarmed strike attacks

And that's all I can notice that might possibly be house rules... the thing is, since 85%+ of the power of this build comes from things outside these houserules (ie, the base Wild Monk class, and the completely legal ACF's), getting these is just icing on the cake! Most of the power in this class comes from Wild Shape and the Wild feats. The other stuff is mostly for the low level, before you get Wild Shape sort of stuff.

[eggs]

Wild Monk is powerful. I'd agree with that. And it combines well with certain other ACFs.

But you keep plugging this build whose legality isn't even questionable - it's straight-out asking the DM to give the character free class abilities. Quivering Palm, Improved Evasion and Still Mind are traded away 2-3 times each, even before the favorable houserules come in.

At that point, you're treating alternate class features as additions rather than alternatives. Granted, my Spirit Lion Totem + Spirit Bear Totem + Raging + Whirling Frenzy + Ferocity + Mountain Raging + Berserker Strength Barbarian is going to be happy with that mentality, but I think it's fair to say that it won't fly at many tables.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, what am I missing? It isn't trading away quivering palm and improved evasion 2-3 times... I thought it was just trading Still Mind away, questionably, more than once, which was mentioned??

Where is the error?? There must be something I've missed... I thought it isn't trading away anything it doesn't have at this point!

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay... Quivering Palm is removed by the L15 Wild Monk ability... *checks*...

..And the Raging Monk ability. Which I already mentioned you need to get permission to combine the Wild and Raging Monks.

I don't see anything that trades out Improved Evasion twice... just the Once from Invisible Fist...

Purity of Body is traded away...

And I mentioned the Still Mind thing, what with the substitution level that doesn't exactly specify that you are trading away Still Mind...

[eggs]

Raging Monk and Wild Monk lose Quivering Palm. Invisible Fist and Sacred Strike lose Improved Evasion. Raging Monk, Wild Monk and lose Still Mind. Even if the level 3 ACF doesn't explicitly say it needs to lose Still Mind, Raging Monk does. And even leaving that aside, this is the level of nitpicky pedantry that can normally be assumed not to come into play anyway - PHB2 Polymorph granting spellcasting, Scarlet Corsair forcing things to Cower for life, etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, Sacred Strike removes improved evasion, I thought it just removes...

*double checks*

Huh. I had missed that.

I knew Ranging Monk and Wild Monk conflicted, I didn't realize that Sacred Strike removed something that Invisible Fist also removed.

Well, I guess I should move it back to Holy Strike and remove the Ilmater stuff from the default suggestion... gyahh. But the Sacred Strike Unarmed Strike is so useful, for those debuffs, which an unarmed character REALLY needs...

[CIDE]

Sorry to sort of jump in like this, but where is the holy monk variant?

To answer this earlier question since I found it: Dragon Magazine 310.

[Metahuman1]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122


Might I suggest this as an alternative?