Dip levels and drop points.

[killianh]

Hello playground! I have come before you with an idea to put together a dip handbook, and I'm looking for info that could at all be relevant.

What is the dip handbook you ask? It's a compilation of every base class and PrC by drop points. Think of the fighter: An inexperienced player would look at the fighter and see feat after feat after feat and believe it to be the best thing ever...until they move up in levels and see that it was only really good for a short time. This is why fighter is (generally) considered a 2 level dip at most.

One of my favourite classes (factotum) has to drop points: one at level 3 and the other at level 8. This is due to the kinds of abilities you get, and what kind of focus you want to have on your character.

My hope is with the help of the playground we can put together a dip level and drop point hand book compiling the info around generally accepted dips, dip levels in relation to the type of build, and synergy between classes and PrCs to make a character based on our advice. I know there is a mini one around somewhere, but it is no where near as exhaustive as the other handbooks people have put together.

If something like this exists already let me know, otherwise help with any info that you can. I'll be doing some research myself and will most likely post the beginning of the handbook sometime after the weekend.

All the best and thank you in advance to those that contribute :smallsmile:

[sonofzeal]

There are 72 base classes, 253 variants on those base classes, and 498 PrCs.

Methinks you have your work cut out for you.

[Vladislav]

Here's something to start with: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214914

[killianh]

There are 72 base classes, 253 variants on those base classes, and 498 PrCs.

Methinks you have your work cut out for you.

I know there's quite a bit of work ahead of me, hence why I'm asking for help from the best experts on the web :smalltongue:

Can I ask where you got those numbers from? A comprehensive list for me to start from would help a great deal in this. I could only find about 60 base classes so if you have some links with lists for those that would be a great help and a great start

EDIT: I won't be putting together the info for pathfinder. I'm not familiar enough with the changes they made to the base classes and system to work on it right away, maybe down the road though

[killianh]

Here's something to start with: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214914

Thank you very much!

[sonofzeal]

Aside from the difficulty, I'm not sure there's a niche. I don't think people look at their blank character sheet thinking "hmm I think I'd base this character around dipping". Usually they dip either to augment what their base class is doing (in which case they should be looking at the various handbooks for that class, which usually include dip advice), or they're trying to pick up something in particular (in which case they need something like PersonMan's lists). A dipping handbook would only be useful if they were dipping for the sake of dipping, which I doubt is very common.

[killianh]

Aside from the difficulty, I'm not sure there's a niche. I don't think people look at their blank character sheet thinking "hmm I think I'd base this character around dipping". Usually they dip either to augment what their base class is doing (in which case they should be looking at the various handbooks for that class, which usually include dip advice), or they're trying to pick up something in particular (in which case they need something like PersonMan's lists). A dipping handbook would only be useful if they were dipping for the sake of dipping, which I doubt is very common.

It wouldn't be dipping for the sake of dipping per say, but rather a compilation of what each of the class dips can give you. I've found info for level dips beneficial to a warlock on a scout handbook before; it was very useful and not listed on the warlock handbook (or in other cases not listed as to what the true benefits overall would be).

Think of it like the Stat X to Y bonus list. Its more about the kinds of mechanical boosts you get from the dips in the class presented as information for the sake of it rather than build advice. Plus we've all seen builds with 4+ classes involved in the making of it. This handbook would help everyone make those kinds of builds by presenting the needed info in an easy to read and sort format.

If it does turn out that most people don't really see a need for it then I'm not going to invest the time into making it, but I still see the potential for it use

[Lonely Tylenol]

Aside from the difficulty, I'm not sure there's a niche. I don't think people look at their blank character sheet thinking "hmm I think I'd base this character around dipping". Usually they dip either to augment what their base class is doing (in which case they should be looking at the various handbooks for that class, which usually include dip advice), or they're trying to pick up something in particular (in which case they need something like PersonMan's lists). A dipping handbook would only be useful if they were dipping for the sake of dipping, which I doubt is very common.

I can think of at least one good reason to have a dip handbook: your build has all the essentials after 17-19 levels, and you want something to fill those last few levels without expending *more* resources (like fulfilling more fear requirements, etc), and you want to know what gets you the furthest in 1-3 levels.

Example (e6): I have a Scout player who rolled low DEX but good STR, CON and INT, and decided to bite the bullet and go ranged Scout anyway. I helped him build toward a Swift Hunter with at least two levels in Ranger to pick up a bonus feat he couldn't get otherwise and avoid losing another BAB, and then I realized that everything he needs happens in the first 5 levels... Which means an open dip at 6. I suggested Cleric for Travel Devotion, but he wanted his character to be mundane. In the end, we wound up aiming for Scout 4 at 6th level--which gives him a bonus feat, the only common commodity in e6--until just yesterday, when I realized that, for a skirmisher, a level of Ferocity Barbarian can be PERFECT: gains fast movement, +4 DEX helps with ranged attack rolls under 30 feet (and breaks even outside of that range), acts like a miniature Improved Initiative and can even increase damage with a thrown weapon or composite bow. Perfect dip!

The best part is, he's still 2,000 from 6th level, so this can still help him out. As for this guide, it may yet help me in the future, because I can be sure that it would have helped me now (if built right). :smallbiggrin:

[Duke of URL]

It is indeed a big project, due to all of the splatbooks. And that's if you don't even consider 3rd-party sources. I'd suggest taking it one sourcebook at a time if you want to be thorough.

Though, as noted upthread, there is a question over the necessity/utility of such a handbook -- many (if not all) handbooks to specific classes have a section on dipping (either in or out) for that class.

[killianh]

For me I call it a dip even if its more that just a level or two. For example: you're building a Magic item crafting class. A very popular build for that is warlock 12\artificer 5\chameleon 2. Warlock 12 gives you the UMD to emulate spells to craft items, Artificer 5 lets you drain exp from items you find, and Chameleon 2 gives you a floating feat that can be used for all of your crafting feats.

Chameleon 2 is definitely a dip for the build. its useful, but not entirely necessary to make this work. Artificer is almost always needed for a good item crafting build but 5 levels isn't usually considered a dip. I personally though would call it a dip only because it takes up less than half of the character meaning its not a "main" class or Prc like the warlock is, but is still substantial to the build