Help with a BBEG

[Menteith]

I'm working on a variation of Shneekey's Joker Bard, and I was hoping that I could get some feedback about his defenses, and what else I should do to ensure he's a legitimate threat.

He's devoted himself toward an Elder Evil, granting additional Vile Feats at level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. This helps enable Deformity (Madness), which gives blanket immunity to every single mind affecting spell and ability, and can still guarantee that he can make the few Will saving throws he needs to. It also is a wonderful thematic fit.

Vecna-Blooded gives a blanket immunity to all divination, removes his background from history, and grabs some other decent and synergistic abilities.

Changling as a base race gives him Disguise Self at will, which, due to Vecna-Blooded, cannot be penetrated by True Seeing. Additionally, it gives access to the Persona Immersion feat, which (given his blanket immunities) allows him to choose what information is revealed when he's being magically investigated.

Is there an easy way to detect him that I'm missing, or will this be enough to keep him secure from Mid-Oped Wizards?

[Aeryr]

Just plain old track?

If you are the dm you can handwave it, but there are several ways of tracking that don't imply divination nor magic (at least on the target). A decent enough ranger can probably find the BBEG, wizards need to go out of their way to be good at tracking but they have so many magical buffs that they can be good at it if they want (or hire a tracker).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mundane Gather Information or Knowledge checks, especially with Moment of Prescience.

There's a +1 metamagic feat called Song of the Dead from Dragon 312 that switches any spell's school to Necromancy, so it could get past a blanket immunity to the Divination school. It's got some tricky wording about the altered spell having no effect against living creatures or constructs, but a personal-range or self-targeted divination spell from an undead caster with this feat could probably still work against that BBEG, such as True Seeing.

Do note that True Seeing is a single-target spell, and bestows on the target the ability to automatically see through certain things. That means immunity to divinations or a Nondetection effect will only work if that individual is the target of the True Seeing, but anyone else who it's cast on gains vision that completely ignores the immunity to divinations of another creature. True Seeing itself couldn't even be used by such creatures, as well as similar spells such as See Invisibility and even Read Magic, so such an ability would actually be a drawback in this situation.

[Aeryr]

Now that I think about necromancy, the whole necrotic cyst is quite good at locating people, and is plain old necromancy.

[Menteith]

Track could find him, but the goal is to avoid suspicion entirely. If you have no idea who's the BBEG, how can you attempt to track them? If they're capable of changing their shape at will, and magic reveals whatever they want instead of the truth, I'm hoping that it takes awhile to even identify them.

Gather Information, even with epic uses of the skill, can't learn more than what the rest of the city knows. Knowledge [Local] should fall under the same restrictions, right? I just need to prevent anyone from ever learning anything about who is really is, and I should be fine.

The actual text of the Cloak of Mystery ability states that it "gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it.
Such divination fails to reveal any information." True Seeing is a divination spell being cast to learn information about it, and should be prevented, unless I'm reading something wrong. It's better than a straight blanket immunity!

I'm going to see if I can dig up a copy of DM312 to get the full text of the ability. Thanks for the heads up.

Great feedback so far!

[Acanous]

Do note that True Seeing is a single-target spell, and bestows on the target the ability to automatically see through certain things. That means immunity to divinations or a Nondetection effect will only work if that individual is the target of the True Seeing, but anyone else who it's cast on gains vision that completely ignores the immunity to divinations of another creature. True Seeing itself couldn't even be used by such creatures, as well as similar spells such as See Invisibility and even Read Magic, so such an ability would actually be a drawback in this situation.

This is explicitly stated not to be the case if you're playing Pathfinder.
For things like See Invisibility/Arcane Sight/true Seeing, you are not detected by the person using magical perception, as stated by Mind Blank.

[Demonic_Spoon]

This helps enable Deformity (Madness), which gives blanket immunity to every single mind affecting spell and ability, and can still guarantee that he can make the few Will saving throws he needs to. It also is a wonderful thematic fit.

Vecna-Blooded gives a blanket immunity to all divination, removes his background from history, and grabs some other decent and synergistic abilities.

Is there an easy way to detect him that I'm missing, or will this be enough to keep him secure from Mid-Oped Wizards?

I prefer insane defiance over deformity(madness), but that's purely personal. Mindsight and lifesense can still detect him(assuming he's alive(necropolitan) and not mindless(oozes are the awesomest thing ever(hinthint))). That shirt of wraithsomething from MIC makes you invisible to undead creatures, no save, for some extra layering. Glitterdust or the like will still negate invisibility(unless you're incorporeal(there's a ritual for that from SS, or ghost template is nice)). Darkstalker is also a musthave feat. Unless you have some sort of permanent silence effect(or are incorpereal), you could possibly still be detected by listen checks.


Mundane Gather Information or Knowledge checks, especially with Moment of Prescience.

Vecna-blooded wipes all memories of the templated creature from everyone ever(except vecna iirc), so I doubt this would work.

[Invader]

Unless your PC's are really really tenacious and studies I don't think you'll have a problem with keeping his identity a secret with what you've done so far.

[Menteith]

I prefer insane defiance over deformity(madness), but that's purely personal.
Mindsight and lifesense can still detect him(assuming he's alive(necropolitan) and not mindless(oozes are the awesomest thing ever(hinthint))). That shirt of wraithsomething from MIC makes you invisible to undead creatures, no save, for some extra layering. Glitterdust or the like will still negate invisibility(unless you're incorporeal(there's a ritual for that from SS, or ghost template is nice)). Darkstalker is also a musthave feat. Unless you have some sort of permanent silence effect(or are incorpereal), you could possibly still be detected by listen checks.

Insane Defiance certainly stronger when it works, but since it takes an immediate action (and causes attribute damage) it's pretty easy to get around, just by hitting him with multiple Mind Affecting things in the same round. It seems safer to just stick with Immunity with the option to hugely boost Will 1/min.

Most of the time, he should be hanging out in plain sight, Disguised as someone else. If the players can never identify who he actually is (by giving false results for detection spells, shifting appearance at will, and having maxed Disguise/Bluff checks on a Bard), then Lifesense and Mindsight shouldn't actually be a significant problem. Detecting that there is something that looks, sounds, and seems to be a random Commoner 1 in all aspects isn't going to find him, even if it can detect what he appears to be.

I'm not seeing a great way around Song of the Dead. Is there a way to gain immunity to Necromancy effects that don't offer a save or even target you?

The goal isn't to make a complete undetectable character - the goal is to find a way to make it impossible to determine who he is, and stop people from investigating him to begin with.

EDIT

Ideally speaking, he's very, very rarely going to actually confront the PCs directly, instead relying on threats delivered by Bluffed/Suggested targets (who in turn used Charm Person on a different person who asked his friend to deliver a letter - there's no need to make it easy). Things along the lines of "You have a single day to kill Wizard McGoodwizington, or I release the Wight-pocolyse in a random village." (Why? Because he's the Joker) He's supposed to be threatening without being forced to fight. These are just precautions I'm taking to stop easy ways out, like Contact other Plane or even Legend Lore.

[Demonic_Spoon]

There's a +1 metamagic feat called Song of the Dead from Dragon 312 that switches any spell's school to Necromancy, so it could get past a blanket immunity to the Divination school. It's got some tricky wording about the altered spell having no effect against living creatures or constructs, but a personal-range or self-targeted divination spell from an undead caster with this feat could probably still work against that BBEG, such as True Seeing.

So I did some checking and this doesn't work. It only effects mind-effecting spells.


The goal isn't to make a complete undetectable character - the goal is to find a way to make it impossible to determine who he is, and stop people from investigating him to begin with.

In that case your precautions should suffice. Cant really think of anyway around them.

[Waker]

If you haven't chosen his race, going elf has a benefit. Go into the Wildrunnner class from Races of the Wild. Requirements are easy enough, be an elf, be good or chaotic, Hide 5, Knowledge (Nature) 5, Move Silently 5, Survival 8, Endurance. At first level you gain Trackless Step, which can be swapped with Go to Ground from Cityscape, rendering you untrackable in a city short of magic. And because of Vecna-blooded you are immune to divination magic.
Only difficulty is that Survival isn't a Bard class skill, but that can be solved by dipping a level of Factotum.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So I did some checking and this doesn't work. It only effects mind-effecting spells.

In that case your precautions should suffice. Cant really think of anyway around them.

Most of what Song of the Dead does will only affect mind-affecting spells, but it does not say anywhere in the feat that it can only be used with mind-affecting spells. The last sentence does specifically say, "Any spells prepared with Song of the Dead become necromancy spells." It can indeed turn any spell in the game into a necromancy spell, but such spells won't have any affect on living creatures or constructs.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Most of what Song of the Dead does will only affect mind-affecting spells, but it does not say anywhere in the feat that it can only be used with mind-affecting spells. The last sentence does specifically say, "Any spells prepared with Song of the Dead become necromancy spells." It can indeed turn any spell in the game into a necromancy spell, but such spells won't have any affect on living creatures or constructs.

Mmm, not at all RAI but I concede the point. However, would true seeing really help? Isn't the shifter's abilities extraordinary? I forget. In any case it won't help with intermediaries and most of the divinations spells that would help aren't personal, are they?

[Menteith]

Most of what Song of the Dead does will only affect mind-affecting spells, but it does not say anywhere in the feat that it can only be used with mind-affecting spells. The last sentence does specifically say, "Any spells prepared with Song of the Dead become necromancy spells." It can indeed turn any spell in the game into a necromancy spell, but such spells won't have any affect on living creatures or constructs.

Yeah, it looks like Song of the Dead being used to alter a Divination spell that affects a target other than the BBEG (and who is an intelligent undead) can bypass what I have right now. I could just not mention it, as it's a fairly obscure source, and I doubt that the players will know about it, but I like to be covered in case it comes up.

@Waker - I'm planning on Changeling for a Race right now. Without Persona Immersion, players could just use Divinations on everyone, and see who had immunity to it. The feat lets him make up what he wants the spell to "reveal", and having Disguise Self at will is just wonderful. On the other hand, Racial Emulation qualifies him for Wildrunner regardless, and a single level of Wilderness Feat Rogue (Changing Racial Substitution) lets him take 10 on all social skills, gives a bonus feat, and gives the skills he'd need. I'm not solid that it's worth losing caster levels (It's the same reason I had to give up on fitting Cabinet Trickster into the build).

EDIT

Minor Change Shape is Supernatural, and True Seeing is specifically called out to bypass it. Still, if the only problem is a niche metamagic from Dragon Mags, I'm comfortable with his sturdiness.

[Feralventas]

There's a Psionic Power that is part of the Seer's discipline, of which simply makes a series of very swift deductions and inferences from existing information. It essentially grants knowledge equivalent to some divination effects without actually having to detect the target; you just figure out where they went.

It's called Metafaculty and you can attempt a Caster Level check to get past things like Mind-blank and the like, though it's defeated by epic level spells, powers, or epic-level effects that limit detection.

[Menteith]

There's a Psionic Power that is part of the Seer's discipline, of which simply makes a series of very swift deductions and inferences from existing information. It essentially grants knowledge equivalent to some divination effects without actually having to detect the target; you just figure out where they went.

It's called Metafaculty and you can attempt a Caster Level check to get past things like Mind-blank and the like, though it's defeated by epic level spells, powers, or epic-level effects that limit detection.

Interesting. I was hoping I could avoid bringing Epic Magic into this. Thanks for the heads up, however! I'm also pretty sure that there isn't a hard ruling for this, as Metafaculty calls for a CL check against 6+Cl of the obscuring effect, which is a nonsensical term in this case.

[Demonic_Spoon]

There's a Psionic Power that is part of the Seer's discipline, of which simply makes a series of very swift deductions and inferences from existing information. It essentially grants knowledge equivalent to some divination effects without actually having to detect the target; you just figure out where they went.

It's called Metafaculty and you can attempt a Caster Level check to get past things like Mind-blank and the like, though it's defeated by epic level spells, powers, or epic-level effects that limit detection.

You have to have seen the target however. Invisibility is a go! Also,


You can attempt a caster level check (DC 6 + caster level of the creator of the obscuring effect)

What's vecna's cl? :3

EDIT: Bah, according to Deities&Demigods Vecna is Wizard20/Cleric20. Damn underpowered gods.

[Feralventas]

Demonic Spoon brings up a good point; the Manifestor of Metafaculty must have Seen the target in order to use the power. However, it's not said that they have to have Known that they've seen the target, so if the BBEG has ever been within proximity of the party or the Mainifestor, then he's back to a DC 26 'caster level check as his last line of defense.

But the BBEG certainly hasn't been abusing that whole Disguise Self at-will has it? :3

The BBEG could operate at a distance via divinations of their own, but would risk things like Detect Scrying, Detect Clairvoyance, and Scrying Traps once the party's on the up'n'up.

Edit: Also, Vecna doesn't need Great Fortitude and Ambidexterity was, last I knew, a 3.0 feat that got erata'd by 3.5 into TWF and MWF. Switch either of those for Practiced 'Caster (or both for the Cleric side too) and switch out some of his gear for some caster-level boosting stuff, and you'll be looking at a DC30 to 35 at least. For a 20th level 'caster you're at least reducing the chance of success via I WIN button to 40% or 25%.

[Menteith]

EDIT: Bah, according to Deities&Demigods Vecna is Wizard20/Cleric20. Damn underpowered gods.

Yes, but according to the much better Dicefreak statblock, he's a Wizard 30, Loremaster 15, Archmage 5, which gives at least a decent CL to detect them. Metafaculty also doesn't really solve the problem of how you'd identify who he actually is - it can give good information if they beat a pretty tough CL check, and they've already identified who he is. And that's fine, if it takes a Seer specific lv9 power and Consumptive Field to even find out who he is, then they deserve it.

EDIT
@ Feralventas
Also, he has Immunity to things like Detect Scrying, as they're also Divinations. And if they're using lv3 or lower spells as Scying Protection, he can give them false information about who's doing the Scrying. Yay for sowing discord!

[Waker]

I've read the Joker Bard build before, but what is the proposed build for this guy right now?

[Menteith]

I've read the Joker Bard build before, but what is the proposed build for this guy right now?

I'm at work right now, but I'll post what I can remember off the top of my head. This is still a very early draft, as well.

CE Vecna-Blooded Changeling

Bardic Sage 5, Mindbender 1, Bardic Sage 4, Sublime Chord 1, Fatespinner 4

Level 1 Feat - Willing Deformity, Deformity [Madness] (For Elder Evil devotion)
Level 3 Feat - Persona Immersion
Level 5 Feat - Evil Brand (For EE Devotion)
Level 6 Feat - Mindsight
Level 9 Feat - Darkstalker
Level 10 Feat - Enemy of Good (For EE Devotion)
Level 12 Feat - Versatile Spellcaster

Conceal Spellcasting Skill Trick, Inspire Hatred ACF

He's the most devoted servant of Atropus, his prophet. He's responsible for preparing the way for the Elder Evil, preparing the needed sacrifices to attract the attention of his master and open the gateway for him. He lacks the means to cause the requisite destruction on his own, and works tirelessly to twist those around him force his purpose.

Something feels off about this, but that's the best I can do from memory.

[Waker]

I like the build. Bardic Sage requires a neutral alignment, being Chaotic prevents you from progressing as a Bard. It would be nice to sneak Melodious Casting and replace a few Bard levels with Lyrical Thaumaturge to get extra spells/day and a couple Sorcercer/Wizard spells.

[Menteith]

I like the build. Bardic Sage requires a neutral alignment, being Chaotic prevents you from progressing as a Bard. It would be nice to sneak Melodious Casting and replace a few Bard levels with Lyrical Thaumaturge to get extra spells/day and a couple Sorcercer/Wizard spells.

Good points. Man, I always forget that Bardic Sage has an Alignment restriction on it. It's entirely possible that an insane nihilist trying to destroy existence is Neutral Evil anyway. Lyrical Thaumaturge is something I'd love to fit in, but since it doesn't have Listen on its class list for some reason, it makes qualifying for Sublime Chord much more difficult. Here's a slightly revised build that fits it in, but gives up Inspire Hatred and the 4th level of Fatespinner for it.

Revised Build

NE Vecna-Blooded Changeling

Bardic Sage 6 Lyrical Thamaturge 3, Bardic Sage 1, Sublime Chord 1, Mindbender 1, Fatespinner 3

Level 1 Feat - Willing Deformity, Deformity [Madness] (For Elder Evil devotion)
Level 3 Feat - Persona Immersion
Level 5 Feat - Evil Brand (For EE Devotion)
Level 6 Feat - Melodic Casting
Level 8 Feat - Captivating Melody (For L.T.)
Level 9 Feat - Versatile Spellcaster
Level 10 Feat - Chosen of Evil (For EE Devotion)
Level 12 Feat - Mindsight
Level 15 Feat - Darkstalker, Enemy of Good (For EE Devotion)

EDIT

I should have a Level 15 Feat, which is Darkstalker. Somehow I missed that. And a bonus Vile feat, which I should use to actually qualify for Enemy of Good.

[Waker]

It costs a few extra skill points to buy stuff as cross-class skills, but you should consider having the build go
Bardic Sage 5/Mindbender 1/Lyrical Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fatespinner 4
Doing that will require you to spend a total of 6 extra skills points spent (+1 Perform, +5 Listen). This will get you the fourth level of Thaumaturge, granting you an additional 3rd/4th spell slot as well as the fourth level of Fatespinner to grab Deny Fate and Resist Fate.

Also I'm curious as to why did you choose the Bardic Sage? I realize it adds to the spell available, but losing a good reflex save and splitting the spell dependency between Int/Cha is kinda weird. Oh and are you planning on grabbing Bardic Knack?

[Menteith]

Bardic Sage is mainly because he's not a combat character. I'm fine with having a poor saves - his primary defense is that he's insanely difficult to find. If he's in a situation where the party knows who is he, where he is, and who he's controlling, then he'll get the crap kicked out of him. Bardic Sage asks for an Int of 14, and lets everything else still be Cha dependent (Including Sublime Chord spell casting), and in exchange gives additional useful spells known and discounted entry for other spells (which is handy with Sublime Chord, again). If Int 14 is assumed anyway, and I don't expect him to be in the line of fire more than once, Bardic Sage is free spells.

I'm not planning on taking Bardic Knack right now, as I don't have the feat space for Jack of All Trades. If he has a dire need of a skill check, he'll have to force someone else to do it for him - but he's great at finding and persuading talent. I also like the idea of Bardic Knowledge being his lunatic insight about the PCs, as it can randomly reveal some incredibly obscure facts about them that might not be available otherwise.

Bard 6 gives Suggestion, which is stronger than the 4th level of Fatespinner - but that requires having Mindbender after Sublime Chord. I'll get stats down, and see how skills work out, as I do want to have that 4th level of L. Thaumaturge. I appreciate all of your help with this!

[Voidling]

As a DM you can just invent any thing you want you know :smalltongue: he is a cool bad guy and sticking to the RAW is nice in it's own right. Theirs value in working out all the way to detect/find him so you know what the player can and can't do. But home brewing a magic item or tattoos to give a far more straightforward build might be a good idea.

[Menteith]

As a DM you can just invent any thing you want you know :smalltongue: he is a cool bad guy and sticking to the RAW is nice in it's own right. Theirs value in working out all the way to detect/find him so you know what the player can and can't do. But home brewing a magic item or tattoos to give a far more straightforward build might be a good idea.

While DM fiat or homebrew can be a solution, it's one of last resort. I'd always rather use the same constraints I'm putting on players. I don't have a time constraint, so I'm going to try and find a way to do this legally, if possible.

[Waker]

Well, I can understand grabbing the 6th level of Bard for Suggestion, but Bardic Knowledge doesn't give too much of a bonus unless the PrCs advance it, only Sublime Chord does. Your Bardic Knowledge check would be 7+Int (+2 if you have 5 or more ranks of History.) Compare that to Bardic Knack, which gives you a +3 to all skills in place of the ranks, including Knowledge checks. Meaning that several less important skills can be completely ignored.

[Menteith]

Well, I can understand grabbing the 6th level of Bard for Suggestion, but Bardic Knowledge doesn't give too much of a bonus unless the PrCs advance it, only Sublime Chord does. Your Bardic Knowledge check would be 7+Int (+2 if you have 5 or more ranks of History.) Compare that to Bardic Knack, which gives you a +3 to all skills in place of the ranks, including Knowledge checks. Meaning that several less important skills can be completely ignored.

If the skill can't be used untrained, Bardic Knack requires you to have at least 1 rank in a skill. This is why Jack of All Trades is frequently used alongside it, but I don't know if it's worth a feat for it. Still, Bardic Knowledge isn't going to be that great either...I'm also looking at Loresong ACF, as having an Immediate Action to add +4 to an attack/check/save 3/day would be solid.

[Waker]

I do like the Loresong ability. I do wish you could get more uses out of it, since you would only get 3/day at 5th level. Would be nice if it was uses=level like Bardic Music or if you got bonus uses from Charisma.

[Menteith]

Alright, here's an actual, fleshed out build. This is what I'm leaning toward the most right now.

NE Vecna-Blooded Changeling
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 4
Cha 18

Joker Bard
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st| Bardic Sage |
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2| Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge [Arcana] 4, Listen 4, Perform [Oratory] 4, Profession [Astrologer] 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Spellcraft 4| Willing Deformity, Deformity [Madness] | Bardic music, Loresong, Mimicking song, Fascinate, Inspire courage +1

2nd| Bardic Sage |
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Profession [Astrologer] 1, Sense Motive 1, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft 1| - | -

3rd| Bardic Sage |
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3| Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Profession Astrologer 1, Sense Motive 3, Spellcraft 1| Persona Immersion | Inspire Competence

4th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4| Bluff 1, Intimidate 2, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1 |-| -

5th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4| Bluff 1, Intimidate 2, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1 | Evil Brand | -

6th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Bluff 2, Concentration 1 Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Conceal Spellcasting | Melodic Casting | Suggestion

7th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+4|
+2|
+4|
+7| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1 |-| Bonus Spell

8th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+4|
+2|
+5|
+8| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|Captivating Melody| Bonus Feat

9th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+5|
+3|
+5|
+8| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1| Versatile Spellcaster | Spell Secret

10th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+9| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|Chosen of Evil | Bonus Spell

11th| Sublime Chord |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+11| Perform 1, Profession [Gambler] 5 |-|-

12th| Mindbender |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+13| Bluff 2, Perform 1| Mindsight |Telepathy

13th| Fatespinner |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+15| Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 2 |-|Spin Fate

14th| Fatespinner |
+8/+3|
+3|
+6|
+16| Bluff 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|-|Fickle Finger of Fate

15th| Fatespinner |
+8/+3|
+4|
+7|
+16| Bluff 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1 | Darkstalker, Enemy of Good |Spin Destiny[/table]