[3.5] Charisma based Support Class / PrC?

[INoKnowNames]

The title says it all. I'm not accepting Cleric (nor Favored Soul) or Bard. Sorcerer is an option, but it's iffy. Marshal has also been considered.

The title doesn't say enough. I'm in the running for my first Tristalt game, and with so many people making offensive classes, I'm going for a defensive thing. I've got Cloistered Cleric - Radiant Servant of Pelor on one path, and straight Bard on the second. I'm trying to decide the last. I've got anywhere from 5 to 8 LA on that path, though, so it can't rely on the class capstone. And I'm almost Charisma sad, so I'm hoping not to mess that up.

What other classes work well with Charisma and are good for support? I was considering Marshal for a while, but I don't think I can beat Sorcerer / War Weaver. Healing with the Cleric, Spell Buffs with the Sorcerer, and Song Buffing with the Bard. Throw some utility spells in there somewhere and decent skills, and I'm golden.

[VGLordR2]

If support includes a horde of undead, you could check out the Dread Necromancer. It's probably not exactly what you were looking for, but give it a once-over.

[gorfnab]

Dragon Shaman - Auras and Cha based healing
Binder - Can change abilities daily and can fit many roles
Warlock - Can debuff, blast, and use any magic items
Crusader - Decent tank with healing

[Feralventas]

Truenamer needs Cha to raise the DC's of it's utterences, though Int is more important for making it work in the first place. Lots of healing and buffing/debuffing options.

[eggs]

Favored Soul->Spellguard->War Weaver builds can be ridiculous.

[The-Mage-King]

Paladin with the Holy Warrior (CC), Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), and Stand Fast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) ACFs. Apply Crusader or Warblade levels.


At any rate, you get: sword, Bardic Music (most likely as a Bard of your paladin level), Cha to EVERYONE'S saves, and the Crusader/Warblade stuff.



Or one of those that was suggested above... :smalltongue:

[demigodus]

Truenamer needs Cha to raise the DC's of it's utterences, though Int is more important for making it work in the first place. Lots of healing and buffing/debuffing options.

While that is technically cha based, a scout (so their movement grants them their precision damage) with slippers of battle dancing that pumps cha might be a more powerful Cha-based build...

[avr]

Binder isn't great for support, but it can be Cha-based. The Knight of the Sacred Seal Prc for the Binder though has at least one ability to add Cha to the defences of people next to them IIRC.

[dspeyer]

Any cha-based caster going into war weaver?

[Waker]

A Shugenja who isn't devoted to Fire gets some nice buffs and can play the support role. Spirit Shamans are mostly about Wisdom, but they do need Charisma for their spell DCs.

[INoKnowNames]

Totally my fault for posting this when I had 0 sleep and had 2 hours before I had to go to work... if I had said everything, it would have been much easier to get responses. While I'm posting this response about the same time, I've been writing it for a good 3 hours, and I rested earlier today, so I can actually think properly.

I'm looking for a 3rd Class to play on a Trisalt that is support based and Charisma powered. I've currently set on a Cleric / Radiant Servant of Pelor, and a Straight Bard for the first two. And I've got anywhere from 5-8 LA on the last side, so it can't be one that would require the capstone, at the very least. Sorcerer is a potential option, as is Marshal.


If support includes a horde of undead, you could check out the Dread Necromancer. It's probably not exactly what you were looking for, but give it a once-over.

Summoning an army of undead doesn't seem like support so much as... summoning an army of undead. That's probably Battle Field Control, rather than anything else.


Dragon Shaman - Auras and Cha based healing
Binder - Can change abilities daily and can fit many roles
Warlock - Can debuff, blast, and use any magic items
Crusader - Decent tank with healing

One of the players has more than enough Dragon in him for the entire party. Almost as bad as a Bear Druid with a Bear Companion riding and summoning Bears... And it seems like the Marshal is a pretty good substitute for it anyway.

I might give the Binder a second look. But there is more than enough Warlock interest.

Crusader, while capable of being a supportive type, is really more melee than anything. And while people love to cite it as getting a lot out of Charisma, it runs more on physical stats.


Truenamer needs Cha to raise the DC's of it's utterences, though Int is more important for making it work in the first place. Lots of healing and buffing/debuffing options.

Unless I'm allowed to use the homebrew version, I'm almost insulted that you'd suggest the Truenamer. I like Ice Cream, thank you very much.


Favored Soul->Spellguard->War Weaver builds can be ridiculous.

I still stand by a slight disposition against the Favored Soul, but where is this Spellguard? As for Warweaver, how would Favored Soul have granted it, since Favored Souls are Divine and War Weavers are Arcane?


Paladin with the Holy Warrior (CC), Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), and Stand Fast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) ACFs. Apply Crusader or Warblade levels.
At any rate, you get: sword, Bardic Music (most likely as a Bard of your paladin level), Cha to EVERYONE'S saves, and the Crusader/Warblade stuff.

Is this a supportive build or some type of super gish? I should have expected something like this from you, TMK. :smalltongue:

At the same time, isn't the Cha to Everyone's Saves rather limited in use?

Granted, a Paladin with Bardic Music would be kinda interesting. But it doesn't seem like it does that much better than a Marshal, not counting the room to Initiate it up. And there are more than enough initiators (I even convinced someone to play Warblade! :smallbiggrin: Gonna help him picking maneuvers.)


While that is technically cha based, a scout (so their movement grants them their precision damage) with slippers of battle dancing that pumps cha might be a more powerful Cha-based build...

I'm not looking quite for power. Damage is good and all, but that's not something I'm quite interested in this time.


Binder isn't great for support, but it can be Cha-based. The Knight of the Sacred Seal Prc for the Binder though has at least one ability to add Cha to the defences of people next to them IIRC.

That one ability is nice, though it seems limited, and the rest of the class doesn't interest me... then again, I've never even looked at the Binder or such before. And it's in the same book as the Truenamer....


Any cha-based caster going into war weaver?

*while reading the book* That's the second mention of War Weaver. I wonder what's so good abou-(just hit the Eldrich Tapestry section) oh. That's what's so good about the War Weaver. -WOW-. :smalleek:


A Shugenja who isn't devoted to Fire gets some nice buffs and can play the support role. Spirit Shamans are mostly about Wisdom, but they do need Charisma for their spell DCs.

Spirit Shaman is a bit too... different. I like divorcing Fluff and Crunch completely, but the abilities of the class make it quite... Druidy. And while I have nothing against the Druid, that's not who this character is.

Shugenja would have gotten a closer look.... but Sorcerer / Warweaver probably just won.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any other input? Or is that (Sorcerer / Warweaver) indeed the game winner? If so, dspeyer (and eggs, too) get cookies.

Thank you all for the ideas.

[Kurtalmak]

does it need to be charisma based?

how about scout and ranger as base and then go into unseen seer (with a one lvl dip into wiz)

- lots of skill points
- lots of synergies (i say "swift hunter" -> skirmish damage to favoured enemies? yes please!)

take smite spell and crossbow sniper and deliver touch spells via your skirmish attacks up to 60ft

and if you NEED to do damage, just use an empowered vampiric touch for extra d6's on your attack + temp HP for you ..

[INoKnowNames]

does it need to be charisma based? *snip*

Yes, it absolutely must be Charisma based.

And I don't think I'd have the room to make a swift hunter build work, feat or ability wise, and I'm not remotely interested at all in actually fighting with this character, so I don't really gain anything from such a path, either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e): Fey HD 7, LA +2, with Bard 7 racial spellcasting that's not level- or HD-based, so it stacks with Bard levels taken along side the Gloura HD/LA. An underground-born fey who discovered the surface and all its brightness and was so amazed that he began worshiping the sun. If you want more LA, Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) adds more Cha and some extremely useful psi-like abilities plus power resistance. A variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) (or adapt Half-Celestial similarly) could potentially get whatever bonuses you want, as long as you can find a properly (un)balanced fiend to base it from.

Throw on Chaos Monk 2 (must be chaotic aligned, Flurry is renamed and becomes 1d4-1 extra attacks) with Cobra-Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) and take Ascetic Mage. Dip two to four Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), one or more Mystic Wanderer (MoF), one Pious Templar (CD), and possibly dip (Prestige (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)) Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) 2 or 3. That will add your Cha bonus to your AC and saves again and again and again, with both Evasion and Mettle. Pick up Shock Trooper and a piercing weapon for making dive attacks or Leap Attack, and note the clever interaction between two-handed Power Attack and the Dextrous Attack ability from Arcane Duelist. Note that Enchant Chosen Weapon will stack with Greater Magic Weapon, since you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order.

Another alternative would be Paladin 20, use the Divine Counterspell ACF for your Paladin Turn Undead, and pick up the feat Divine Defiance (FC2). Be sure to have enough Kn: Arcana ranks for a bonus, try to pick up the Inquisition domain, and you should be able to count any +level of Turn Undead items/feats toward your Divine Counterspell effective level. That way you can spend a Turn Undead (via Cleric) to attempt a counterspell as an immediate action, which you use Divine Counterspell for, which pretty much automatically succeeds due to its arbitrarily high dispel check. Its daily uses will be fairly limited, but it's still going to be a game changer for important fights.

Get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), an be sure to give that pet a name as it's a perfect Guenhwyvar knockoff.

[INoKnowNames]

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: The first two paragraphs I barely even understand some of what is being said, but I can already tell you I don't have the room to apply that, and it's most definitely not what was being asked for.

As for the 3rd, 5-8 other levels in that path makes Paladin 20 not a possibility (and I'm not a particular fan of Paladins anyway). And as a Cleric of Pelor, I don't think I can get that domain anyway.

And I honestly have no idea where you're coming from with the Hound of Doom thing, nor what I'm supposed to be using it for.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: The first two paragraphs I barely even understand some of what is being said, but I can already tell you I don't have the room to apply that, and it's most definitely not what was being asked for.

As for the 3rd, 5-8 other levels in that path makes Paladin 20 not a possibility (and I'm not a particular fan of Paladins anyway). And as a Cleric of Pelor, I don't think I can get that domain anyway.

And I honestly have no idea where you're coming from with the Hound of Doom thing, nor what I'm supposed to be using it for.

You're looking for class levels for defense/support on the third leg of a Cha-SAD tristalt character, right?

I initially thought you were saying you could have 5-8 LA, as in you hadn't decided on a race but were willing to dump that many levels of that third progression into it. If you're already set on a race, just ignore that part of it.

The class levels I suggested all add your Cha bonus to either your AC or your saving throws, all of which will stack with each other. Much of that requires a chaotic or at least nonlawful alignment, as does Bard, so for some of those I recommended a chaotic alternative to a normally always-lawful class. I sort of put a focus on the defense aspect rather than support, but that combination adds your Cha bonus to AC four times, and to saves twice, if using Gloura. With a Cha score in the neighborhood of an easy 30, that's +40 AC and +20 to saves. It's all personal-defense though, and I guess you're looking for party-wide defense/support.

The Hound of Doom is an extremely potent/interesting summon, especially on a high-Cha character, and putting it on an Eternal Wand allows anyone capable of casting arcane spells to use it. It's just a bit of icing on the cake for any Cha-based character with a decent BAB. It's there to help fight, and with its ability to trip and a decent chance to hit from your BAB, plus it benefits from your Inspire Courage, it should make a decent contribution and you'll probably be glad you've got it for hard fights.

[eggs]

I still stand by a slight disposition against the Favored Soul, but where is this Spellguard? As for Warweaver, how would Favored Soul have granted it, since Favored Souls are Divine and War Weavers are Arcane?
Spellguard of the Silverymoon is a prestige class in Player's GUide to Faerun. It's useful because it lets a character cast personal range defensive spells as touch spells. Defensive spells are defined explicitly as spells that do one of a variety of things - one of which is granting temporary HP.

Favored Soul's PHB2 ACF makes its personal spells (things like Righteous Might and Divine Power) grant temporary HP. Mix in some War Weaver and, say, Righteous Might, and things start to get interesting.

But yeah. Both Spellguard and War Weaver require arcane casting, so meeting those requirements involves some tricky workarounds. It gets really fun because Spellguard's casting advancement explicitly only goes onto the "arcane spellcasting class" that met its 4th level arcane entry requirement. There are a few ways to do it without sacrificing many(or any) casting levels (Dragonblood pool, Exalted Arcanist, Anyspell or Geomancer tricks) - the kinds of things that can be fun if you're into clever builds, rather than builds that were ever supposed to work.

But otherwise, it's hard to go wrong with Sorcerer/War Weaver/Legacy Champion.

[INoKnowNames]

You're looking for class levels for defense/support on the third leg of a Cha-SAD tristalt character, right?

Indeed I am. Although, at least in my book, SAD might not be the right word here. SAD seems to imply that absolutely everything runs off of the single stat, and so all else could reliably be 3s and you'd still be alright, which isn't true in this case. While I would definitely be pumping Charisma on this character, I won't be neglecting my Intelligence, Constitution, or Dexterity. Though I'll probably be able to get by without Strength or Wisdom.


I initially thought you were saying you could have 5-8 LA, as in you hadn't decided on a race but were willing to dump that many levels of that third progression into it. If you're already set on a race, just ignore that part of it.

Ah. Then I appologise for being confusing. We're starting most likely at level 10, and I've got a couple of templates that will take up no less than 5 LA, and no more than 8. So I'd only be able to start with 5 to 2 levels in this class, and it would only get 15 to 12 levels max.


The class levels I suggested all add your Cha bonus to either your AC or your saving throws, all of which will stack with each other. Much of that requires a chaotic or at least nonlawful alignment, as does Bard, so for some of those I recommended a chaotic alternative to a normally always-lawful class. I sort of put a focus on the defense aspect rather than support, but that combination adds your Cha bonus to AC four times, and to saves twice, if using Gloura. With a Cha score in the neighborhood of an easy 30, that's +40 AC and +20 to saves. It's all personal-defense though, and I guess you're looking for party-wide defense/support.

While this sounds -awesome-, the DM is sorta intimidated by Tristalt. And while he's still willing to do it, I don't think making a completely unkillable character would be good for him.

And yeah, I'm thinking more about how I could affect allies, rather than myself. If the rest of the party can do what they do best even better with my help, in exchange for me not having to get too involved, then I'm fine with it.


The Hound of Doom is an extremely potent/interesting summon, especially on a high-Cha character, and putting it on an Eternal Wand allows anyone capable of casting arcane spells to use it. It's just a bit of icing on the cake for any Cha-based character with a decent BAB. It's there to help fight, and with its ability to trip and a decent chance to hit from your BAB, plus it benefits from your Inspire Courage, it should make a decent contribution and you'll probably be glad you've got it for hard fights.

If it wasn't such a dark option, I'd probably immediately leap on it. Seems odd coming from a CC headed toward Pelor. But I'll still consider it while shoping for items, since it's not Evil or anything. A bit of Self Defense might not be bad...


Spellguard of the Silverymoon is a prestige class in Player's GUide to Faerun.

Ah, that Spellguard. I took a look while writing this post. The whole "regional"ness of the class seems like it would only work in Faerun campaigns, and the Dm has something.... "different" in mind.


It's useful because it lets a character cast personal range defensive spells as touch spells. Defensive spells are defined explicitly as spells that do one of a variety of things - one of which is granting temporary HP.

Favored Soul's PHB2 ACF makes its personal spells (things like Righteous Might and Divine Power) grant temporary HP. Mix in some War Weaver and, say, Righteous Might, and things start to get interesting.

Wait... What? If I cased a spell from part of the Tristalt, I could have the spell affect allies in the Eldrich Tapestry, even if the spell doesn't come from the class that was the base for the Warweaver? Just as an example; I could potentially cast Cure X Wounds or X Vigor or Heal from the Cleric part, and have it affect all allies through the Sorcerer / War Weaver part by use of the Tapestry?


But yeah. Both Spellguard and War Weaver require arcane casting, so meeting those requirements involves some tricky workarounds. It gets really fun because Spellguard's casting advancement explicitly only goes onto the "arcane spellcasting class" that met its 4th level arcane entry requirement. There are a few ways to do it without sacrificing many(or any) casting levels (Dragonblood pool, Exalted Arcanist, Anyspell or Geomancer tricks) - the kinds of things that can be fun if you're into clever builds, rather than builds that were ever supposed to work.

I'd give such things a slight bit of possibility, but it sounds a bit... rough. Plus, I don't think I should be pulling such shenanigans on our DM.


But otherwise, it's hard to go wrong with Sorcerer/War Weaver/Legacy Champion.

I tried reading up on Legacy Champion. I must fail that spot check because I don't see what it adds to the equation, since War Weaver seems good enough to just take all 5 levels, and Sorcerer has no other class features. And the Legacy Champion's abilities don't really jump out at me.

Sorcerer/WarWeaver is pretty awesome though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Legacy champion is commonly used, in a somewhat dubious fashion, to extend the level dependent class features of an otherwise short PrC. In this case, expanding the war-weaver's level cap on spells it can weave into the eldritch tapestry.

[INoKnowNames]

Legacy champion is commonly used, in a somewhat dubious fashion, to extend the level dependent class features of an otherwise short PrC. In this case, expanding the war-weaver's level cap on spells it can weave into the eldritch tapestry.

..... If I may so speak, that sounds incredibly Cheesy. I don't think I want to do something like that in this game. I'd appreciate the boost, but really. That just sounds like it might spawn an argument.

So the clear winner still seems to be Sorcerer / War Weaver, huh...