4x Space Recommendations

[Brumski]

So I've been jonesing for a 4x space game, maybe cause I pulled out Master of Magic (I love that game so hard)again, maybe it's cause I finished reading "Old Man's War." Whatever the case I decided to hunt out a good game of this genre. I've seen good things about Sword of the Stars, Gal Civ, Master of Orion, even the Endless Space LP on these boards looks interesting. Anyone have any suggestions? Other good titles to try?

Thanks,
No Brumski

[Aotrs Commander]

Sword of the Stars 1 is probably the best of the rest, I think, though GalCiv 2 is a good strong contender, with Sins of a Solar Empire not far behind.

SotS 2, was, at last count, a bug-ridden Dx-11-only hellish mess, though six months on, they may have just about got it to a usable state. (I'm on XP though, so I don't care...) So I'd give that a good long, hard research before you looked at it.

I've been recommended AI Wars myself, though I haven't yet had time to check it out, but it may be worth mentioning.

I've only played Moo3, so I can't speak much to the earlier (and preportedly better) games - and I play the latter with a lot of the fan fixes and patches at that. (Though I don't think it's a terrible game, per say, provided you don't try to micro-manage everything and are prepared to put in a long slog.)

[Cespenar]

Master of Orion 2 is all I'm going to say.

[polity4life]

Master of Orion 2 is all I'm going to say.

Ding!

MOO2 provides a fantastic balance of time spent for game played, provides enough micro-managing to prevent dull, elementary gameplay yet remains surprisingly simple and fun.

The replay value of MOO2 cannot be understated. You have three different avenues for victory and myriad race options and combinations to make each game distinct.

[Mistral]

Master of Orion 2 is awesome, though it does have its balance issues. Master of Orion 3 is decent, and Aotrs Commander and I are in a minority position at that; it was widely panned due to how it tried to reduce micromanagement. And, well, a whole lot of other things. Still, with the fan patches in particular, it does become a decent game.

Space Empires IV and V are also quite wonderful classic 4X games. IV is generally regarded as superior to V, but my own opinion is the opposite, probably in large part because I started with V. V generally tried to do a lot of things bigger than IV, expanding on IV with a lot of new features and implementations, but it's generally regarded as a toss-up as to how much it actually succeeded. Significant range of tech, from the early steps into space to ringworlds and stellar engineering, classic turn-based tile gameplay (squares in IV, hexes in V), and a wide range of faction customization.

I was never particularly fond of GalCiv, for some reason; I just couldn't get into it for some reason. Again, though, I'm in the tiny minority in that respect. A lot of people swear by GC2, in particular with the expansion packs, and the AI is somewhat impressive, so I'd still suggest looking into it.

Ascendancy is an amazing DOS-era 4x game. Planet management similar to GC (which is what originally had made me so optimistic about GC), quasi-RT turns (I suppose real-time pausable would be a good description?), ship customization, and so forth, all of which were a big deal back in the day. It's old, mind you, but quite fun.

Aurora (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php) is a really fun, free, and inordinately complex game. Really good if you don't care as much about graphics, but love the idea of building most everything from scratch. A new version is expected in the next month or so, with a host of improvements and features (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,4835.0.html), but 5.60 is quite good.

I'm a big fan of Endless Space; I like the combat style reminiscent of BOTF, but the real bread and butter is the fairly unique factions (I haven't seen much like the Sowers since the Mycon; the Amoeba are fairly close to unique in the combination of biology and in-game role, albeit with some flashbacks to the Jovian-dwellers of MOO3; and the Horatios are entertaining in their hubris) combined with the good management and an interesting (though thus far somewhat limited) hero system that brings flashbacks to MOO2. I was actually a little unsure about it since the last game I saw that was so stylish-shiny was MOO3, but it's a lot better than it looks.

[Volatar]

I've been recommended AI Wars myself, though I haven't yet had time to check it out, but it may be worth mentioning.


And by "AI Wars" he actually means AI War: Fleet Command (One war, not mutiple. AI Wars sounds stupid.)

Website here: http://www.arcengames.com/w/index.php/aiwar-features

I recommend getting the bundle by the way. Great deal.

AI War holds second place in my personal "best 3 games ever made" list. First place going to Dwarf Fortress and third to X3: Terran Conflict.

[factotum]

Master of Orion 3 is decent, and Aotrs Commander and I are in a minority position at that; it was widely panned due to how it tried to reduce micromanagement.

I don't think the problem with MOO3 was reducing micromanagement per se, it was that it took away all the *interesting* micromanagement and just left the boring grind behind.

[Binks]

Gal Civ 2 is a great game IMHO. I've never played Master of Orion 2, so I can't compare it to that, but I would say Gal Civ 2 is the best 4X game I've ever played. And the Ultimate Edition (game + expansions) is pretty cheap, $20 on steam right now. There's multiple win conditions, tech, diplomacy, military, and others, each race gets their own unique tech tree (this is what you need the first expansion for, as it makes the game a million times better) and the AI is probably the smartest AI I've seen in any game ever.

Sins of a Solar Empire isn't really 4X sadly (though it does a good impression of one). It's a great game, don't get me wrong (I pre-ordered and have been playing the beta continually for Sins:Rebellion, so that should tell you how much I love the game) but it's more RTS than 4X, long and detailed RTS leaning towards 4X, but still an RTS.

I don't have any experience with the others you mentioned, so I can't comment on them.

[psilontech]

Brumski, I must say you have excellent taste. MoM and Old Man's War. Yesss.


Anyhow, I will go ahead and repeat some of the suggestions already made.

Master of Orion II - One of my favorite games of all time. Guess where I got my username? (Mater of Orion 3 on the other hand, is one of the few games I have ever 'destroyed'. The play disk is locked up in a chest somewhere in my shed while the install disk is buried somewhere in the deep woods and hills of Kentucky - They shall never be reunited lest the evil miasma befall the countryside once more.)

Galactic Civilizations 2 - Great fun. One of those games I just keep on my HD in case I feel like booting it back up again.

Space Empires IV - Again, great fun. Probably 100+ hours spent on this. Once you get past how badly the graphics have aged, there is quite a bit to this one.

Stars! - Might be a little hard to find based on the title alone. It might help to know that there was once a sequel in the works by the title 'Stars!: Supernova Genesis' as far as google searching is involved. A fairly complex little game, fuel management and sensible creation of supply lines is essential.

I'm just going to go ahead and recommend against Aurora. Just getting the thing installed requires a fair amount of work for someone who has a pretty good idea of what they're doing. The level of complexity is downright frustrating to the point of Dwarf Fortress looking quite casual in comparison.

[Tavar]

Endless Space is still a bit of a gamble: It's fun, but there are times where it's somewhat obvious it is still in Alpha. Beta's starting up soon, though. And if you buy it before Monday, you get the discount.

Oh, and this game, unlike Galactic Civilizations 2, is going to have multiplayer. Not something I would pan GalCiv2 from leaving out, but it could be something you want.

If you want to seem more about it, head over to my Let's Play (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13322564#post13322564).

[houlio]

Endless Space and Gal Civ 2 actually seem quite similar to me too. The key difference I think being that Gal Civ 2 has already finished being made and really won't get anything new added to it, while Endless Space is in Alpha. Gal Civ 2 right now has a few more bells and whistles for the moment because of that.

AI Wars is one of the few games I have played where I lost in the tutorial. As it's name might imply, it has some pretty crazy computer players.

Sword of the Stars 1 is really great, although it's less of a traditional 4x game and more just Total War in space. Despite that, it's a reeeeaaaally good Total War in space. The sequel has improved since its release significantly, but it seems to me like they might have expanded on too many elements and made the game stupidly complex (at least that's what it seems like for the moment).

[Volatar]

AI Wars is one of the few games I have played where I lost in the tutorial. As it's name might imply, it has some pretty crazy computer players.

Yeah, the AI in AI War (:smallmad:) is really, really smart. It is also customizable in SO many ways.

There are literally 17 distinct AI difficulty levels. Resource handicaps from -300% to +300%, 13 different settings to make the AI play or react in different ways, 14 "minor factions" to mix things up, and something like 150 ship types to play with on both sides.

And that's just scratching the surface. :smallwink:

[Grif]

Sword of the Stars 1 is really great, although it's less of a traditional 4x game and more just Total War in space. Despite that, it's a reeeeaaaally good Total War in space. The sequel has improved since its release significantly, but it seems to me like they might have expanded on too many elements and made the game stupidly complex (at least that's what it seems like for the moment).

Yesssssssssss. Sword of the Stars! It's really one of the few niche 4X games that I enjoyed very much. Mind, the randomisation of this game can be very unforgiving though. (Everything from the galaxy, to your very tech tree are rolled for each new game.)

[houlio]

Oh yeah, I don't know if it would fit the bill since it's still planet-based (mostly at least), but Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri is also a spectacular sci-fi 4x game.

[Winter_Wolf]

Oh yeah, I don't know if it would fit the bill since it's still planet-based (mostly at least), but Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri is also a spectacular sci-fi 4x game.

SMAC is my all time favorite 4x game. I'm still playing it regularly.

As to GalCiv2, it's definitely space based 4x. But sadly its charm wears off real quick. For me at least. My favorite part of the game is designing ships. It's like virtual LEGO for sci-fi space ships. I had to turn off some of the victory options because they were WAY to easy: cultural victory was always a sure-win, with tech victory being a close contender.

I've never played, but I've only ever heard/read good things about Master of Orion 2. Which led to the mistake of purchasing Master of Orion 3. :smallannoyed: I tried, really tried to like that game. It's now safely in a place where it can never harm me again. But if you can get MoO 2 to run on your computer I say give it a shot.

[psilontech]

I don't mean to be that guy, but if you're having troubles getting MoO2 to run, you can get it on the cheap from gog.com with all the bells and whistles all cleaned out and tweaked to run on a modern OS. Even comes bundled with the original MoO - Quite a bit of a different beast, but still loads of fun once you get used to the fact that you shouldn't treat it as if it were too similar a game.

[Gecks]

I have to second the recommendations for SMAC and Space Empires IV (SE4 was probably my most played 4X ever). I have also picked up Endless Space and am totally loving it, very much an Alpha but if they can polish and expand a little on what they have could be a true classic of the genre.

[Starwulf]

Uhh, maybe I'm nuts, but isn't Sins of a Solar Empire considered a 4x Space game? If so, I'd highly recommend that(with expansions). It can be a real time sucker though!

[Volatar]

Uhh, maybe I'm nuts, but isn't Sins of a Solar Empire considered a 4x Space game? If so, I'd highly recommend that(with expansions). It can be a real time sucker though!

It is. It is classified wrong. It's an RTS with 4X elements.

[thegurullamen]

This (http://www.indiegala.com/) seems relevant to your interests.

[Artanis]

I have to second the suggestion of SMAC, which, incidentally, is available on Good Old Games (http://www.gog.com/) for $6. SMAX (the expansion) makes it even more awesome, but can be tough to find.

[Martok]

Armada 2526 with the Supernova expansion. You can pick up both for pretty cheap these days.

[Rockphed]

Space Empires IV and V are also quite wonderful classic 4X games. IV is generally regarded as superior to V, but my own opinion is the opposite, probably in large part because I started with V. V generally tried to do a lot of things bigger than IV, expanding on IV with a lot of new features and implementations, but it's generally regarded as a toss-up as to how much it actually succeeded. Significant range of tech, from the early steps into space to ringworlds and stellar engineering, classic turn-based tile gameplay (squares in IV, hexes in V), and a wide range of faction customization.

I was never particularly fond of GalCiv, for some reason; I just couldn't get into it for some reason. Again, though, I'm in the tiny minority in that respect. A lot of people swear by GC2, in particular with the expansion packs, and the AI is somewhat impressive, so I'd still suggest looking into it.

I agree with both these analyses. Space empires started out as a generic "grab planets and use them to produce star-ships to eventually annihilate your opponent", but quickly morphed into a "customize ships and conquer the galaxy with wormholes". As a note, that was all in place by SEII, three introduced blowing up stars and planets, creating new wormholes, and differentiated research.

Galciv isn't bad...I just don't like most of its idiosyncrasies.

[Acanous]

Sins of a Solar Empire is pretty darn good, with a shallow learning curve. There's a stand-alone expansion coming out, Rebellion. If you pre-order it ($30) you get into the beta, which is ongoing. You play NAO!

[GungHo]

I enjoyed Sword of the Stars 1 quite a bit. The graphics were kind of primitive and the tech tree display was initially baffling, but it had a hell of a lot of great ideas.

I turned on SotS 2 once. I refuse to believe it was made by the same people.

[Grif]

I enjoyed Sword of the Stars 1 quite a bit. The graphics were kind of primitive and the tech tree display was initially baffling, but it had a hell of a lot of great ideas.

I turned on SotS 2 once. I refuse to believe it was made by the same people.

To be fair, SotS 2 can be generously described as an early beta or late alpha when they released. Apparently Paradox forced a release.

At any rate, it seemed to be getting better, judging from the forum reaction. I would definitely get this game once they make it playable and reworked some of their more annoying mechanics.

[The Glyphstone]

Aaah, Ascendancy. The best part of that game was the manual it came with, featuring what amounted to three campaiign logs written from In-Character perspectives from three different races. Pity the AI was dumber than a sack of rocks.

OP Chamachies 4 Life, yo.

[Smight]

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4008/021328036669.jpg

Legend of pegasus (http://www.legendsofpegasus.com/us/) seems to be taking few ideas form Ascendancy.

[Cybren]

Gal Civ 2 is a great game IMHO. I've never played Master of Orion 2, so I can't compare it to that, but I would say Gal Civ 2 is the best 4X game I've ever played. And the Ultimate Edition (game + expansions) is pretty cheap, $20 on steam right now. There's multiple win conditions, tech, diplomacy, military, and others, each race gets their own unique tech tree (this is what you need the first expansion for, as it makes the game a million times better) and the AI is probably the smartest AI I've seen in any game ever.

Sins of a Solar Empire isn't really 4X sadly (though it does a good impression of one). It's a great game, don't get me wrong (I pre-ordered and have been playing the beta continually for Sins:Rebellion, so that should tell you how much I love the game) but it's more RTS than 4X, long and detailed RTS leaning towards 4X, but still an RTS.

I don't have any experience with the others you mentioned, so I can't comment on them.

being real time doesn't preclude being a 4x game.

Unless you don't think paradox games qualify as 4x?

[Binks]

being real time doesn't preclude being a 4x game.

Unless you don't think paradox games qualify as 4x?
It's close, and the expansion packs have brought it far closer than it was at launch, with multiple tech trees, an actual semi-competent diplomacy system, and optional alternate win conditions, but at its core Sins is a game where you build a big powerful fleet and go stomp your enemies to death in real time with strategy. It takes a lot longer than most RTS's, and has a lot more 4X elements than most RTS's, but it's still an RTS.

That said, this is kind of off topic. If you think Sins is a 4X game, great, glad you're enjoying it (and I would suspect you started playing at the Diplomacy expansion or later). I don't think it is, and I love it all the same. I mentioned it because someone else had and, since the OP is specifically looking for a 4X game, not a strategy game in space, I would shy away from Sins as a suggestion.

[The_Jackal]

At risk of continuing the derail, Sins was marketed as, and I believe qualifies for, a RT4X title. Yes, the diplomacy could be stronger, and the economics more nuanced, but it really is an excellent space strategy game, and shouldn't be excluded from your selections based on an arbitrary distinction. The Trinity pack will set you back $20, and expenditure I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone who's a fan of the genre.

[Martok]

Bink pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why Sins isn't a true 4x title. It's certainly a decent enough game, and there's no denying it includes a few 4x elements, but at its heart, it's still only an RTS.





being real time doesn't preclude being a 4x game.

Unless you don't think paradox games qualify as 4x?
Well Paradox games *don't* qualify as 4x, in fact (any more than the Total War series), so that's not really the best analogy.


That being said, there have been a few real-time 4x titles. Notable examples would include Imperium Galactica 2: Alliances and -- more recently -- Distant Worlds.





At risk of continuing the derail, Sins was marketed as, and I believe qualifies for, a RT4X title.
Just because a company markets a product as something particular, it doesn't mean the product always fits the description.





http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4008/021328036669.jpg

Legend of pegasus (http://www.legendsofpegasus.com/us/) seems to be taking few ideas form Ascendancy.
Yeah, I've been keeping my eye on this one for a while now. I wish there was more info released on it, but it still looks potentially promising nonetheless.

Between Legends of Pegasus, StarDrive (http://stardrivegame.com/), and Endless Space, this could well be a banner year for the 4x genre. :smallcool:

[Binks]

The Trinity pack will set you back $20, and expenditure I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone who's a fan of the genre.
If you want to get Sins I would recommend skipping the Trinity pack entirely. Rebellion is in open beta in a playable state with more content and is completely standalone, you don't need any of the other titles to play it. Pick that up instead.

Having tried endless space (partially because it was recommended in this thread, partially from the LP, and partially because of everything else I was hearing about it) I'd say that it's a good 4X space game if you're still looking for one. Lots to learn, but it definitely focuses on the 4X's (given that the tech tree basically separates all 4 into their own areas) and it's got some pretty cool features.

[The_Jackal]

I didn't realize that Rebellion would work standalone, since it's billed as an expansion pack.

[Archonic Energy]

Master of Orion 2 is all I'm going to say.


Ding!

MOO2 provides a fantastic balance of time spent for game played, provides enough micro-managing to prevent dull, elementary gameplay yet remains surprisingly simple and fun.

The replay value of MOO2 cannot be understated. You have three different avenues for victory and myriad race options and combinations to make each game distinct.


Master of Orion 2 is awesome, though it does have its balance issues.


Anyhow, I will go ahead and repeat some of the suggestions already made.

Master of Orion II - One of my favorite games of all time. Guess where I got my username? (Mater of Orion 3 on the other hand, is one of the few games I have ever 'destroyed'. The play disk is locked up in a chest somewhere in my shed while the install disk is buried somewhere in the deep woods and hills of Kentucky - They shall never be reunited lest the evil miasma befall the countryside once more.)


fithed... MOO2:BAA is awesome. it it the major reason i needed to re-sit a year of college... you are thusly warned.

[Brumski]

Wow, thanks for all the input Playgrounders. So I had a fairly busy weekend trying some of these out.

AI War has a demo on Steam so I downloaded that and tried it out. Maybe it was to late in the day, but I started to get a headache looking at it, I don't know why. The graphics looked really ugly to me also. Anyway I quit and deleted that about halfway thru the tutorial, to many other things suggested on this thread to try.

Sword of the Stars 1 was what I tried next, since it is one of the newer ones on this list, with a couple expansions which I think can be a decent indicator that a game was well-liked, and a rl friend suggested it also. The RT combat was a nice twist, but I couldn't seem to get the hang of it. 1st game ever where hitting the auto-resolve routinely netted me better results then manually controlling combat. And the strategy stuff didn't seem that in-depth, not really much strategy behind which planets to colonize (especially since each star only has one planet), and not that many ways to design different ships, although I was starting to see some interesting rock-paper-scissor type interactions depending on what weapons each opposing fleet had. This is on the back burner now.

MoO 1+2 was already sitting on my computer from Gog, so I fired up MoO 2 next. Hell to the Yes, thank you. So much more to this game, and it plays so much like Master of Magic that helps (no surprise, same companies made them). Alot more to think about then MoM though. Its harder to explore, expand, research, build and sustain armies.

This is going to be fun, thanks ladies and gents

[Brumski]

So I've spent about a week with MoO2 now, so awesome. My first game had be fumbling around for awhile, figuring what to colonize and what all the different screens mean. Played as the Akari (sp?) because, well, I started with the first race on the list since I knew it was going to be a crapshoot anyway. Had a few systems and a couple research treaties when the subterrainian lizard people came in (Sakkra?). They'd already colonized their corner of the galaxy and I was outgunned. So I started a new game, as the Sakkra :smallsmile: and did much better.

Now I've played thru a few different galaxies as a custom race with repulsive, subterrainian and lithovore, with some other minuses and pluses for flavor. Being able to colonize anywhere without having to worry about food, and having a bigger pop. to boot is awesome. By mid-game the other empires are fighting over prime real estate while I've got every radiated, toxic and barren rock in my corner of the galaxy colonized, even if most colonies are just a half dozen scientists doing science things, for science. Soon my biggest planets start churning out warships, with better tech because I've got so many dirt-eating beaker-jockeys. Whoever spies on me first, DIES.

In other 4X news, Warlock: something something is a fantasy 4X game that was half price on Steam over the weekend so I got it. Sub-par. How can no one do one of these as well as MoM, it's been close to two decades, just plan ridic.

[The Glyphstone]

Mmm, Ascendancy. Delightful memories, delightful memories.

[psilontech]

Might I suggest for your next custom race to play around with the Telepathic ability? I've always enjoyed it, it completely cuts out the need for troop transports and ground combat tech (As long as you're on the offensive). Park a cruiser in orbit of a planet (After summarily reducing everything that can shoot at it to subatomic particles from orbit) and 'mind control'. Boom, free planet full of citizens that love you and all of the colony's infrastructure intact!

For ultimate cheese against the AI, couple this with Charismatic. With these power combined, you are captain planet. Everyone that you haven't done horrible things to loves you (Except the Scilicoids, but they don't count anyway) and once the time comes, just TRY not to be elected emperor of the galaxy!

[Snowstorm]

Mmm, Ascendancy. Delightful memories, delightful memories.

I <3 Ascendancy so very much.

Does anyone remember a 4x called Malkari? The space combat was great, but the ground combat appeared to have been something that got tacked on in about five minutes.

[Rockphed]

I <3 Ascendancy so very much.

Does anyone remember a 4x called Malkari? The space combat was great, but the ground combat appeared to have been something that got tacked on in about five minutes.

Too often ground combat is the last thing considered. Or proper tactical combat. Space empires 5 had really lame ground combat(though that might have been because I seldom put nearly as much into armor as into weapons.)

[The Glyphstone]

I <3 Ascendancy so very much.

Does anyone remember a 4x called Malkari? The space combat was great, but the ground combat appeared to have been something that got tacked on in about five minutes.

The sad part is that it's now effectively impossible to play anymore on PC, now that Logic Factory is back and selling the game as an iPhone/iPad app; places like Abandonpedia had to take the game down.

[JimmyJr]

The sad part is that it's now effectively impossible to play anymore on PC, now that Logic Factory is back and selling the game as an iPhone/iPad app; places like Abandonpedia had to take the game down.

I'm still playing ascendancy with Dosbox, and having a great time doing it. Admittedly I'm playing it on my poor 7 year old home built XP box, perhaps I'll have to give up Ascendancy when I build a new computer this fall...

I personally thinks it's the second best 4x game ever made (nothing will ever beat MoO2, I don't think). I love the planet building, the shipbuilding, the tactical combat, the tech tree (I love the tech tree so very much)... Much prefer the starlane-based strategic map over a more freeform strategic space.. If the AI wasn't so very stupid, and diplomacy wasn't a joke, it would be hands down my favorite strategic game ever.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm still playing ascendancy with Dosbox, and having a great time doing it. Admittedly I'm playing it on my poor 7 year old home built XP box, perhaps I'll have to give up Ascendancy when I build a new computer this fall...

I personally thinks it's the second best 4x game ever made (nothing will ever beat MoO2, I don't think). I love the planet building, the shipbuilding, the tactical combat, the tech tree (I love the tech tree so very much)... Much prefer the starlane-based strategic map over a more freeform strategic space.. If the AI wasn't so very stupid, and diplomacy wasn't a joke, it would be hands down my favorite strategic game ever.

Yeah, Dosbox is the way to play it, but I lost my discs long ago, so Abandonpedia was how I got my Ascendancy fix. And yeah, MoO2 was probably the only 4x game better than Ascendancy.

[Kizor]

Too often ground combat is the last thing considered. Or proper tactical combat. Space empires 5 had really lame ground combat(though that might have been because I seldom put nearly as much into armor as into weapons.)

I have yet to see a space 4X with interesting ground combat. Orbital bombardment seems to send them the way of the dodo. The best ones have been unobtrusive, and have had interesting decisions around them.

In fact, let's look into this!

In Master of Orion 1, colonies can be bombed out or invaded. Invading gets you the infrastructure and a potential king's ransom in captured tech, and can be done through enemy defenses, hoping that enough transports survive to land. Of course your own tech tree will leak like a sieve if the enemy retakes the planet. Population doubles as soldiers, so sending transports weakens your empire, and transports can't be recalled, but it's still tempting to keep your advance moving by launching transports on a world before your warships reach it. It's possible to try only weakening a planet by bombing, but a nuclear bomb is not a precision instrument. Invasion is a matter of enticing risks.

The ground combat itself is a matter of shoveling population on a planet until the enemy's runs out.


Master of Orion 2 fumbled it, making invasion a matter of building a couple of cheap and expendable troop transports on the side. However, the conqueror is allowed to not murder the population, and they retain many of their racial bonuses. Breeding stock can be the most valuable plunder in the game - industrial races to man the shipyards, subterranean ones to every world! I have no idea if the designers saw this coming.

Planets can have nice defenses in space combat, with fighters, beams, missiles, mines, orbiting fortresses, and the Death Star superlaser.
In Star Wars: Empire at War ground combat is a slow and unchallenging RTS sequence. Ground units are cheap, so at least it's possible to make a huge pile of them and let autoresolve do its job. Planets can act as off-map artillery in space battles, that's fun.
In Anacreon, space and ground combat are part of the same battle. The smallest ships can fight in both. The attacker tries to get enough troop transports through the defender's ships, satellites, cannons and missiles.
In Hegemonia:Legions of Iron you shoot colonies until they die.
Regarding MoO 3, I found someone saying that he loved building combined arms units and joining them together into armies, corps and divisions, and that no other 4x game has offered such flexibility.
Emperor of the Fading Suns gave planets a full-fledged hex map, with many kinds of units, fog of war, and everything. (Tangent: Emperor, I'm told, is unplayable because of bugs and missing features. My local gaming magazine lamented the game that could've ruled the genre if it had been finished. I took it out for a spin once and found all kinds of fresh features: players have as many diplomatic votes as they have scepters, which can be stolen or destroyed, and they need to have a nobleman unit on the capitol planet to vote. Techs have upkeep costs and can be forgotten at will, and some techs are forbidden, getting caught with them is severely punished. Its in-game encyclopedia seems to have elaborate fluff on every tech and unit, but no tech effects or unit stats. Fitting, really.)

[Rockphed]

In Master of Orion 1, colonies can be bombed out or invaded. Invading gets you the infrastructure and a potential king's ransom in captured tech, and can be done through enemy defenses, hoping that enough transports survive to land. Of course your own tech tree will leak like a sieve if the enemy retakes the planet. Population doubles as soldiers, so sending transports weakens your empire, and transports can't be recalled, but it's still tempting to keep your advance moving by launching transports on a world before your warships reach it. It's possible to try only weakening a planet by bombing, but a nuclear bomb is not a precision instrument. Invasion is a matter of enticing risks.

The ground combat itself is a matter of shoveling population on a planet until the enemy's runs out.

I think Gal Civ 2 has very similar ground combat with the added oddity that you pretty much cannot just nuke your enemies from orbit. I actually don't like that. It, among other problems, makes the campaign very clunky and frustrating.


Master of Orion 2 fumbled it, making invasion a matter of building a couple of cheap and expendable troop transports on the side. However, the conqueror is allowed to not murder the population, and they retain many of their racial bonuses. Breeding stock can be the most valuable plunder in the game - industrial races to man the shipyards, subterranean ones to every world! I have no idea if the designers saw this coming.

Planets can have nice defenses in space combat, with fighters, beams, missiles, mines, orbiting fortresses, and the Death Star superlaser.

I like the defenses to space combat (if Earth were invaded from space, what would we do? Launch nukes like there was no tomorrow.) And breeding stock is, indeed, one of the best things you can acquire in a game. For games with many atmospheres, just getting another atmosphere breathing race typically doubles the productivity of your empire.


In Star Wars: Empire at War ground combat is a slow and unchallenging RTS sequence. Ground units are cheap, so at least it's possible to make a huge pile of them and let autoresolve do its job. Planets can act as off-map artillery in space battles, that's fun.

Sounds like the space combat in Sword of the Stars. Well, aside from the units being cheap.


In Anacreon, space and ground combat are part of the same battle. The smallest ships can fight in both. The attacker tries to get enough troop transports through the defender's ships, satellites, cannons and missiles.

This sounds rather interesting. I think Space Empires 5 has units that participate in both ground and space combat. Though if you didn't use them to shoot down the incoming troop ship, you are a moron.


In Hegemonia:Legions of Iron you shoot colonies until they die.

Truly classic. Brutal, but classic.


Regarding MoO 3, I found someone saying that he loved building combined arms units and joining them together into armies, corps and divisions, and that no other 4x game has offered such flexibility.

I thought MoO 3 was a myth created to scare young gamers into rectitude...While designing armies sounds fun (look at all the warhammer/warhammer 40K discussion), it doesn't quite sell the game. Also, I think Aurora might offer something close. I gave up on that trainwreck when it became clear to me that the game is never going to be as fun as Gal Civ 2, which is about the bottom of my range of fun 4X games. Not that I am some snob and only play super awesome 4X games, I just find a lot of Gal Civ 2 un-fun.


Emperor of the Fading Suns gave planets a full-fledged hex map, with many kinds of units, fog of war, and everything. (Tangent: Emperor, I'm told, is unplayable because of bugs and missing features. My local gaming magazine lamented the game that could've ruled the genre if it had been finished. I took it out for a spin once and found all kinds of fresh features: players have as many diplomatic votes as they have scepters, which can be stolen or destroyed, and they need to have a nobleman unit on the capitol planet to vote. Techs have upkeep costs and can be forgotten at will, and some techs are forbidden, getting caught with them is severely punished. Its in-game encyclopedia seems to have elaborate fluff on every tech and unit, but no tech effects or unit stats. Fitting, really.)

Where can I get this game? This sounds amazingly awesome and I would sell bodily organs to get it. Well, except the upkeep costs for tech. That sounds iffy. On the other hand, it does sound like it can model a civilization where tech is being lost (like say, Battletech). Actually, a Battletech mod sounds like it would fit right in.

[factotum]

I think Gal Civ 2 has very similar ground combat with the added oddity that you pretty much cannot just nuke your enemies from orbit.

Actually, you *can* do things like that in GalCiv 2--there are all sorts of nasty things you can do to reduce the enemy forces on a planet when you send the troops in. Most of them result in severe damage to the planet's ecology, thus reducing its quality, but if you want an easy invasion then that's the route to take!

[Grif]

Actually, you *can* do things like that in GalCiv 2--there are all sorts of nasty things you can do to reduce the enemy forces on a planet when you send the troops in. Most of them result in severe damage to the planet's ecology, thus reducing its quality, but if you want an easy invasion then that's the route to take!

In game terms, the closest one can come to orbital bombardment is Mass Drivers. It's just what it says on the tin, hurling asteroids at the planet before invading. Downside? Massive loss to planetary quality and infrastructure. Other delicious options include Gas Warfare, Tidal Waves and Robots (Or Mini-Soldiers in game).

Unfortunately this system is easily gamed by the simple fact that the consequences do not occur if you lose the battle.

I will also note that in Sword of the Stars, the only way to take colonies is also to shoot them till they die. :smalltongue:

[Psionic Dog]

I think I am one of the very few people who actually enjoyed playing MoO3. It had a massive map. The detail was phenomenal. You had incredible control in ship design. It was stuffed full my kind of humor. Playing a game took weeks. The AI planetary governors were idiots.

Ok, so that last bit was a negative. I love ultra complex games, but having to do city planet management every 2-5 turns to undo the worthless auto-reasignments and production orders the game 'helpfully' would add was tedious.

I tried GalCiv2, but the game caused my laptop to over heat and crash after 3 minutes.

Currently I play Aurora 4x. Same great detail, but better planet management at the cost of graphics that resembles an excel spreadsheet.

[Rockphed]

Currently I play Aurora 4x. Same great detail, but better planet management at the cost of graphics that resembles an excel spreadsheet.

The excel spreadsheet feel was what ultimately made me give up on Aurora. There is a grand game idea in there, but the excel spreadsheet of it all just made me want to cry.

And with regards to Gal Civ, I meant that you cannot do to enemy worlds what you have to do in SotS, namely just park a couple massive ships of doom in orbit and have them commence fire until the colony is destroyed.

[Rustic Dude]

I have yet to see a space 4X with interesting ground combat. Orbital bombardment seems to send them the way of the dodo. The best ones have been unobtrusive, and have had interesting decisions around them.
[/LIST]


I think Imperium Galactica 2 managed to do fairly entertaining land battles. You design your tanks(Nope, no infantry) with a load of weapons and modules, that can range from making the tank levitate and move better on hills, to be able to deploy mines, hack other tanks, or call fire support from capital ships or fighters. Heck, there is even a building that is a massive self destruct nuke that you can use to wipe out all invaders and your own colony if things go bad. It also features a good land-space combat, with the use of planetary cannons and shield generators.

Of course it stills suffers from thye straight upgrade syndrome. The Megatank is the Best Tank in the lategame where production capability and money is not a huge issue, and the Heavy Fortress is the best fortification.

[Grif]

The excel spreadsheet feel was what ultimately made me give up on Aurora. There is a grand game idea in there, but the excel spreadsheet of it all just made me want to cry.

And with regards to Gal Civ, I meant that you cannot do to enemy worlds what you have to do in SotS, namely just park a couple massive ships of doom in orbit and have them commence fire until the colony is destroyed.

Ah yes, that particular feature of GC2 irked me as well. You may dominate the space around the planet, but haha you can't touch my colonies until you get some transports over.

[Aotrs Commander]

Something of a mixed blessing, since it means you can actually complete the campaign mode post Twilight of Arnor when then Dread Lords were stupidly buffed (having played it recently). Though a game plan that involves not building any starships at all and maxing out your population growth to survive repeated the invasions until you get to the very top of the tech tree is somewhat.... tedious, so say the least...

[Abemad]

If you decide to try master of orion 2, you should definatly install the very difficult choice mod (http://www.spheriumnorth.com/orion-forum/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=613), it adds alot to the game.

[Rockphed]

Something of a mixed blessing, since it means you can actually complete the campaign mode post Twilight of Arnor when then Dread Lords were stupidly buffed (having played it recently). Though a game plan that involves not building any starships at all and maxing out your population growth to survive repeated the invasions until you get to the very top of the tech tree is somewhat.... tedious, so say the least...

That was the other problem with the Gal Civ campaigns: You started every mission with 0 tech, but were fighting enemies who were somewhere further along in the tech tree. Essentially, the campaign was an exercise in tedium.

Are there any 4X-ish games that are worth playing and free? I have a craving for some laser-death-ray action, but no gaming budget. Also, all my games are sitting in a box in a basement 2000 miles away.

[Smight]

http://www.gamersgate.com/FG-SE4/space-empires-4

space empires 4 is free at gamers gate

and

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php

[factotum]

The free GamersGate promo only works if you sign up for their ad-funded VOID service, which isn't available in the UK...darn it.

[Volatar]

The free GamersGate promo only works if you sign up for their ad-funded VOID service, which isn't available in the UK...darn it.

A proxy should solve that no problem.

[IdleMuse]

Stars! - Might be a little hard to find based on the title alone. It might help to know that there was once a sequel in the works by the title 'Stars!: Supernova Genesis' as far as google searching is involved. A fairly complex little game, fuel management and sensible creation of supply lines is essential.

I'm glad someone else has played Stars! I sunk many many hours of my childhood into this, it's a real pity Mare Crisium sunk before the sequel got near to release. Stars! is not pretty by modern standards, but all the classical 4x elements are there, and it's got a highly advanced spatial tactical system, and, as you pointed out, a really nice niche in the fuel-and-mineral-transport system, setting up remote mining and freighter chains is a great strategy, as is redirecting certain minerals/extra colonists from your developed worlds to your fringe worlds. Combat has an interesting choice to make between heavily-laden dreadnoughts or layers of tiny chaff ships, and there's a mine-laying/clearing system.

[lsc9x]

Distant Worlds Legends. Hands down.

Game was expensive with expansion packs, but I have found it almost instantly addictive. Huge amount of customizations from auto-play to micro management, giant galaxy maps (to small ones) wide variety of races to play, massive tech trees, solid user interface (if a bit hard to read on large screens at times) and well paced game play.

It took a day to learn the ropes (much longer to master them) but I just played it all night and set up a new game for tomorrow.

This game brings back memories of great games from the 1980s, but this buries them technologically.

At first I wasn't sure about the "2D" map approach, but I've completely forgotten about it now. 3D would just make it harder to play in my opinion.

Have a machine with a fast processor and lots of ram!

[Cikomyr]

I'm glad someone else has played Stars! I sunk many many hours of my childhood into this, it's a real pity Mare Crisium sunk before the sequel got near to release. Stars! is not pretty by modern standards, but all the classical 4x elements are there, and it's got a highly advanced spatial tactical system, and, as you pointed out, a really nice niche in the fuel-and-mineral-transport system, setting up remote mining and freighter chains is a great strategy, as is redirecting certain minerals/extra colonists from your developed worlds to your fringe worlds. Combat has an interesting choice to make between heavily-laden dreadnoughts or layers of tiny chaff ships, and there's a mine-laying/clearing system.

Agreed. Stars! had some very immersive elements. Setting up a supply depot near your ennemy's territory so you could have a fuel chain reaching your fleet.

I remember once desigining a rather super exploratory ship and created a very, very large Exploration mission chain into unknown space. He would be back in 16 turns. I rechristened her "USS Enterprise"

[The Glyphstone]

I remember Stars! Never played it against anyone but CPUs, but was still immensely fun. I spent so much time and resources building freighter fleets that just sat bored in deep space for turn after turn in a slim hope that one of those awesome alien traders would plot a course within intercept distance.

[Sharoth]

Does anyone know where I can pick up Stars! ?

[psilontech]

Does anyone know where I can pick up Stars! ?

It is no longer available for commercial download anywhere.

These links may lead you to the information you desire to play it:
http://www.starsautohost.org/abouts.htm
http://www.starsfaq.com/

[Sharoth]

Thanks for the info Psilontech.

[Eakin]

If you're curious about Gal Civ 2, which I happen to be a fan of, I would recommend reading the diary/Let's Play (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/161570/blog/galciv-2-war-report-final-entry/?site=pcg) of one of the games played by a reviewer from PC Gamer magazine. It's a bit on the long side but it's a fun read and it's what ended up pushing me to get the game myself