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Crazyfailure13
2012-06-01, 11:40 AM
My Second Darkness players don't read this:

Info:
Ok so, i'm running a second darkness campaign on the forum, and currently let my players have a some time to explore the town, one of the players decided to visit lavender lil in search of her "Services" and two of the other characters misinterpreted this as him looking for infomation or something, and decided to find out about lil's past.

Now they've found out that Zincher's after her life, and decided they should kill zincher, this is a problem because they're level 2, and the encounter would almost certainly kill them, i've tried giving them hints through NPC's that he is stronger then them but they didn't seem to get it.

Question:
Should i just straight up warn them or should i let them go about their plan, and let them get beat, or is their an option 3?

Alaris
2012-06-01, 12:07 PM
My Second Darkness players don't read this:

Info:
Ok so, i'm running a second darkness campaign on the forum, and currently let my players have a some time to explore the town, one of the players decided to visit lavender lil in search of her "Services" and two of the other characters misinterpreted this as him looking for infomation or something, and decided to find out about lil's past.

Now they've found out that Zincher's after her life, and decided they should kill zincher, this is a problem because they're level 2, and the encounter would almost certainly kill them, i've tried giving them hints through NPC's that he is stronger then them but they didn't seem to get it.

Question:
Should i just straight up warn them or should i let them go about their plan, and let them get beat, or is their an option 3?

Well, you're running a game, the goal of that is for everyone to have fun.

I don't know anything about that universe or system, but I think this could apply to any system really.

My recommendation would be to allow them to make a plan. Prepare to take down this "Zincher' fellow. Let them go through with the plan, but do not have Zincher outright kill them. Give him a reason to let them live, or keep them alive.

But make sure it's QUITE APPARENT during their encounter that he is better than them. Stronger, has more assets, or whatever it is that makes him better. Essentially, you could make him into either a Recurring Villain, or a Longtime Goal for this group to actually go after.

NOTE: There's also the possibility that they will plan something so outrageous that it would actually allow them to kill him at this level. If they succeed, don't take that away from them.

erikun
2012-06-01, 12:36 PM
Why, exactly, is your Nth-level NPC in a position where 2nd level characters can casually walk up and attempt to kill him? You'd think someone of that level would be a bit harder to walk up to and stab in the face, to say nothing of him not wanting to mess with the continuous stream of would-be heroes.

I think your biggest problem, though, is that the players appear to only have one plot hook at the moment. They know of this guy and know he's a badguy, and in lieu of anything else interesting to do, are going after him. Unless this is a "take on any challange you want" sandbox type of game, you probably don't want to be throwing the party into a guaranteed TPK.

valadil
2012-06-01, 12:51 PM
You are not obliged to restrict yourself to level appropriate encounters. I'd drop another hint or two, but if the players insist on letting themselves get killed you have to let them.

As far as other hints go, is there anyone in the game that is known to be higher levels than the players? You could feed that NPC to the big baddie and make sure the players know about it. If that doesn't tell them they're out of their league nothing will.

Also, if you kill the players in this manner, that's okay. PCs are conditioned by the games they play. If you make all the games safe, they'll assume they can explore anything and you won't kill them for it. Disabuse them of that notion. They'll be grumpy the first couple times. After that maybe they'll pick up on your hints or *gasp* do investigation of their own before deciding to off NPCs.

cfalcon
2012-06-01, 03:29 PM
Agreed completely.

Also 2nd level? That's like the BEST level for a TPK.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-06-01, 03:55 PM
To be honest, in situations like this, I don't see what the problem is just coming out and saying it. Let them know, as the DM, that this guy is substantially stronger, and while you're not going to stop them from attacking him, you're not going to hold back either. Advise they get some levels first.

Because the thing is, in an RPG, dropping hints about an NPC's power level can easily mean any of:

Other NPCs are really scared of this guy. This is an excellent target to use to show how cool and powerful you PCs are.
This guy is going to be a boss fight. Be prepared.
This guy is way stronger than you at your current level. Do Not Engage.


And it's not always easy to tell which the DM means in this particular case.

WalkingTarget
2012-06-01, 04:01 PM
To be honest, in situations like this, I don't see what the problem is just coming out and saying it. Let them know, as the DM, that this guy is substantially stronger, and while you're not going to stop them from attacking him, you're not going to hold back either. Advise they get some levels first.

Because the thing is, in an RPG, dropping hints about an NPC's power level can easily mean any of:

Other NPCs are really scared of this guy. This is an excellent target to use to show how cool and powerful you PCs are.
This guy is going to be a boss fight. Be prepared.
This guy is way stronger than you at your current level. Do Not Engage.


And it's not always easy to tell which the DM means in this particular case.

Reminds me of a game theory concept an old friend of mine blogged about a few years ago - The Belly of the Dragon (http://benjaminbernard.blogspot.com/2010/04/cloak-dagger-and-dragons.html).


This is a concept that relates to getting players onto your plot and not some other plot that you might've accidentally hinted at. Basically the story goes like this: your players are at the local inn. You have a big adventure planned with the forest elves. They need the player's help to overthrow their god and regain their sense of morality. You have a bunch of NPCs, compelling story hooks and such, but the adventure starts with them in the woods, meeting the elves. So you give the players the hook: there have been a lot of bandit attacks out in the woods, if only someone could help! Instead of charging off into the woods like you wanted, the players say "Well, we should get the local lord or duke or whomever to fix this." You panic. Of course there is a duke and he doesn't like bandits, so you need some reason for him not to be interested so you say "the local duke doesn't care about these people, he won't help." a player responds with "we need to make him see the plight of these people". And so it continues. And eventually you find yourself saying something like "Well, you could go up to his castle, which is protected by the king's elite guard and is renowned across the land as the most defensible fortification for 100 miles, but a dragon has swallowed the castle whole and now its in the belly of a gaint dragon. You think you've won, they won't go up there now. The players on the other hand hear "there is a lot of cool stuff at the castle, it must be where he wants us to go, plus we get to fight a dragon!".

This concept boils down to: if you place too many cool obstacles in front of players, it isn't a turn off, sometimes it is a challenge and the more you heap on, the more some players will want to tackle those challenges. I think this is the reason I sometimes drag games off course. I almost always seek the plot like an arrow, but if the GM starts building up some problem or place, I will think that in the plot and start pushing towards it.

Some ways to counteract the belly of the dragon effects include sudden role reversal... "Oh the duke will talk to you, yeah, and he wants to hire you to route out the bandits, no we don't need to roleplay the interaction with the duke". Another technique would be the metagame hints ("you feel a pull to go out into the woods", or "your childhood friend is traveling this road and he may get hit by the bandits!". Basically, though it boils down to: if you find yourself talking about things that aren't in your grand plot, stop! Don't talk about things the players aren't supposed to do, either it convinces them not to do something (which could've happened quicker by not talking about it) or it derails the game.

Karoht
2012-06-01, 04:05 PM
My Second Darkness players don't read this:

Info:
Ok so, i'm running a second darkness campaign on the forum, and currently let my players have a some time to explore the town, one of the players decided to visit lavender lil in search of her "Services" and two of the other characters misinterpreted this as him looking for infomation or something, and decided to find out about lil's past.

Now they've found out that Zincher's after her life, and decided they should kill zincher, this is a problem because they're level 2, and the encounter would almost certainly kill them, i've tried giving them hints through NPC's that he is stronger then them but they didn't seem to get it.

Question:
Should i just straight up warn them or should i let them go about their plan, and let them get beat, or is their an option 3?

Does Zincher have some body guards or bouncers? Let them have their arses 'bounced' out by said bouncers.

Slipperychicken
2012-06-01, 04:32 PM
Does Zincher have some body guards or bouncers? Let them have their arses 'bounced' out by said bouncers.

This could work. Or even have Zinch himself beat them up (not killing all of them outright). He'll spare them because they're "not worth the effort", or his goons just drop them in the street, thinking they won't be a problem any more.

Jay R
2012-06-01, 09:01 PM
You don't need more hints; you need more plot hooks. They will switch goals if a cool enough goal shows up.

Crow
2012-06-01, 09:12 PM
Suppose killing Zincher would be bad, because his subordinates are worse and he's the only one that keeps things from getting truly bad. Maybe the whore would rather they help her skip town instead.

jackattack
2012-06-02, 08:13 AM
Let them see an NPC party attack Zincher and get killed. That should be a strong enough hint.

Or, let them attack and get killed. Then tell them that they were actually playing an NPC party, and they just watched the combat that got them killed.

Jay R
2012-06-02, 09:58 AM
Also, never forget the risk of asking for advice on a public forum. I don't know your players - is there any possibility that at least one of your players has read this thread?

Doktor Per
2012-06-02, 10:57 AM
The best way to give your players a hint, is sending in the toothless vagabond with a word of advice. "Oh that big feller over there? I've seen him wrassle bulls into the ground and fell dragons in me time. He's a dangerous one fo' sure. Don't be gettin' no big ideas just because he has shiny things, that's how thieves around here lose their fingers." Or something along those lines. Give him a friendly name such as Daniel Mann, Don Molina, Drake Mulder, Devin Maracca or Doris Mane. The vagabond could be a constant hintgiver (though i recommend never having him have the same name twice) when you feel that they might be doing something foolish.

It's a classic trope, and it's a trope because it works. (He's a vagabond, he'll hear stuff and he'll be hoping for a handout (or some sort of supernatural creature in the guise of a vagabond))

If they still refuse to listen, have them intercepted by lackies who beat the snot out of them, but fail to finalize the kill (somehow). "Woah, that's the guys working for HIM?" should be what they get out of that. And you'll get to build up the character, without him even showing up in person to destroy them.

Crazyfailure13
2012-06-02, 01:58 PM
Also, never forget the risk of asking for advice on a public forum. I don't know your players - is there any possibility that at least one of your players has read this thread?

maybe, if they do, it'll get my desired effect, also these ideas are all great thank you for the help guys.