(PF) Making a summoning NPC viable

[ScubaGoomba]

I'm looking to build an NPC for my players to come into conflict with using the Preservationist archetype for Alchemist. My big issue, however, is that Summoning seems to be a terribly implemented mechanic. By the time you're able to start summoning creatures of a given level, your opponents greatly outshine whatever you have (our Druid found this to be true, as well, when attempting to use summons in combat). Even if they have the AC or HP to survive through their duration, their attack bonuses are almost always painfully low.

As an example, say you have an NPC, Druid 7, as part of a party against the players (average level of 8). The Druid starts off by casting Summon Nature's Ally IV, which brings in a Dire Wolf (CL3). A CL3 monster is a pushover for a level 8 party, with a +7 to hit (which might hit every few rounds) and a measly 14 AC. The Dire Wolf is summoned, misses its first attack, and then is killed before it can go again. The Druid's wasted a spell by summoning a Dire Wolf with an attack bonus about the same as it could have made with a regular, melee attack.

How could a Summoner become more viable? What could a DM do to make a character that's built around summoning new monsters to the field actually be a threat to the players?

[Waker]

Well, there are any number of feats that improve the quality and number of creatures summoned. Augment Summoning being the most obvious, Planar Preservationist will give you more options, Superior Summoning and so on. Extend Spell might be handy to get longer lasting summons out.
I don't know if Preservationist is the best choice to play a summoner to oppose the party. You might be better off going with Wizard, Druid or Summoner.
Anyways, the strategies that you might want to consider are ambushing the party. Prior to the party arriving, summon a group of monsters and have them hit the party. While this is going on, use battlefield control and pepper the party with the occasional attack spell or debuff.

[jaybird]

Master Summoner Archetype for the Summoner. Half-level Fighter equivalent, standard action Summon Monster SLA 5+CHA times/day for class level MINUTES not rounds, and grab Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to pick up a Familiar as well. He even gets Augment Summoning as a bonus feat, which is fantastic and applies to both his SLA and Summon Monster cast as a spell. See here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner). Another Archetype you want could be the Broodmaster, which starts with 2 half-level Fighter equivalents and Summon Monster SLA 3+CHA times/day, but no Augment Summoning.

An alternative if you're willing to use 3.5 material and you really want to use SNA instead of SM is Greenbound Summoning.

[ScubaGoomba]

I'm going with Preservationist as part of the story; he's being manipulated in a plot by a BBEG to bottle up the essence of some mystical creatures that he needs to access in order to summon a greater one. Preservationist fits that to a T and it's only funny as an afterthought that the whole quest is based around Pokémon 2000 and the Preservationist class is, for all intents and purposes, a Pokémon Trainer.

I don't necessarily need the character to be a huge threat, but I don't want it to be a pushover at all. I know I'll have bombs and mutagens to make the Preservationist, itself, useful, but the summons will still be lacking.

[jaybird]

Greenbound Summoning from 3.5 is your best bet if you want a single character using SNA to be a threat, I think. What's your PC party composition?

[stack]

What is their level? Planar preservationist, as mentioned, will help a lot. If higher level, the SLA's and spells of the summons are where the money is at, not necessarily their direct combat skills. Check out the dretch with stinking cloud, it annoyed the heck out of my party.

[Waker]

Ok, well in addition to some of the summoning-related feats I mentioned before, here are a few discoveries which you might find useful.
Bottled Ooze- Oozes are terribly annoying to fight. Immunities of various types, dealing damage whenever you hit them and so on. Just chuck that into the middle of the party and your players will hate you. Pairs very well with the Acid Bomb discovery, so you don't hurt your little puddle monster.
Confusion Bomb- Confusion is a mean-spirited spell, which is precisely why you should use it here. Just peg the party's fighter or rogue and watch them babble incoherently.
Explosive Bomb- A nice simple increase on the explosion radius.
Tanglefoot Bomb- Excellent discovery for keeping someone away from your alchemist.
Dispelling Bomb- Get rid of those pesky buffs that the party may be using.

[stack]

Bottled ooze scales poorly, if I recall, so might be a waste at higher levels.

[Novawurmson]

One of the biggest benefits of Summoning spells is that the creatures soak up damage and actions from the players. Sure, that Dire Wolf died in a round, but it soaked up at least 37 damage. Try healing that in a round as a level 7 Druid.

Summons have range; a Druid who's not in melee range can keep casting spells without resorting to concentration checks to cast defensively or risking AoOs.

If you're sending a level 7 Druid (a CR 6 encounter) against a 4 level 8 characters, it's definitely going to be an easy-peasy fight. A level 9 Druid (CR 8) could cast SNA 5, gaining a Manticore, Woolly Rhino or Large Elemental. A Manticore has +10 on its three melee attacks (+12 with Augment Summoning) or +8 on its four ranged attacks. A Woolly Rhino (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/rhinoceros/wooly-rhinoceros) can put out a lot of damage in a single attack - 4d8+18, with a +14 (+16 with charge, +18 with Augment Summoning, which brings the damage to 4d8+21).

Consider using tactics other than just attacking. A Large Earth Elemental (another SNA 5 creature) has a +16 on its CMB, giving it an excellent change to grapple the party's Wizard (or other 1/2 BAB or even 3/4 BAB player).

[CTrees]

I'd normally suggest combining crowd control with summons. Unfortunately, alchemists have shockingly little CC on their spell lists, so they have to rely on their (decent and varied) discoveries. Not to bad, but disappointing.

Also, really, it's the special abilities which make summons fun. SLAs at higher levels, but simply grabbing an augmented owlbear or whatever and having it grapple an enemy caster can give some breathing room.

[Waker]

Bottled Ooze does indeed scale somewhat poorly, but there is still some use for it, especially at low-mid levels. Even at level 8, many people would still groan when encountering a Gelatinous Cube. Once again, by itself it wouldn't be a threat, but when the party is trying to counter several other monsters, having to make a Fort sv DC 20 to avoid paralysis can be quite bad.

[ScubaGoomba]

Party's average level is 6. I've got a Barbarian/Oracle (just took his first level of Oracle), Fighter, Gunslinger, Cleric, and Druid. The party I'm putting them up against is going to average out around the same as their level, but with the "main" guys a touch higher and the "lesser" guys a touch lower, with a Sorc, Ninja/Assassin, Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, and Alchemist (going in order from "major" to "minor" with regards to their importance in the story thus far and their relation to the PCs). I figure the Alchemist will be around level 4 or 5, probably 5 so that he can get an extra Summon and Feat to be able to contribute more.

[deuxhero]

Master Summoner Archetype for the Summoner. Half-level Fighter equivalent, standard action Summon Monster SLA 5+CHA times/day for class level MINUTES not rounds, and grab Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to pick up a Familiar as well. .

No. Grab EH: Abysmal for doubling the creatures summoned (doesn't kick off till latter)

[jaybird]

No. Grab EH: Abysmal for doubling the creatures summoned (doesn't kick off till latter)

Why not both?

(Also, Abyssal /nitpick) :smallbiggrin:

[Waker]

If the Alchemist is in a team at level 5, here is what I would suggest as his feats and discoveries.
Human Alchemist 5
Feats:Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Planar Preservationist, Superior Summoning
Discoveries: Tanglefoot Bomb, Precise Bombs

Gives him plenty of stuff to summon, between having both Summon Nature's Ally and Monster. Everything he summons gets +4 Str/Con. And if he summons more than one creature for a spell, he gets an extra one. His Discoveries allow him to entangle/glue his enemies and he can shape the splash effect to avoid allies.

[deuxhero]

Why not both?

(Also, Abyssal /nitpick) :smallbiggrin:

Because you can't. EH is, despite being a "family" of feats like Weapon Focus, can not able to be taken twice.

[ScubaGoomba]

If the Alchemist is in a team at level 5, here is what I would suggest as his feats and discoveries.
Human Alchemist 5
Feats:Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Planar Preservationist, Superior Summoning
Discoveries: Tanglefoot Bomb, Precise Bombs

Gives him plenty of stuff to summon, between having both Summon Nature's Ally and Monster. Everything he summons gets +4 Str/Con. And if he summons more than one creature for a spell, he gets an extra one. His Discoveries allow him to entangle/glue his enemies and he can shape the splash effect to avoid allies.

Forgot to mention, the Alchemist is a Ratfolk that is defecting from the ship they're on because his strongest loyalties are to his younger brother, the Cleric, who is a bit of a loose cannon and needs an eye kept on him. Family bonds sometimes do overpower logic, after all. Of those feats, which do you think is better to keep? Superior Summoning or Planar Preservationist?

Also, thanks for all the advice so far!

[SSGoW]

As a DM most of the bad guys are waiting for the good guys and lay traps... Such as glyphs on the floor, some produce a meld with stone trap (you sink into the floor then the spell leaves you there and some are summoning glyphs so that my big bad evil guy can concentrate on other things.

Yay traps :)

If you have a BBEG then let him have minions or allies that do the summoning as he is doing other nastystuff (he could be a god mode wizard or a crusader with UMD).

[Invader]

Allow your druid to change one of feats to greenbound summoning and ashbound or augment summoning and all his animal summons will roll over everything

HD's change to D8's
AC increases by 6 over base creature
Gain a slam attack by size
SLA At will Entangle, pass without trace, and speak with plants, 1/day wall of
thorns
DR 10 slashing/magic
Fast Healing 3
+4 grapple bonus
Resistance to cold and electricity 10
Tremorsense 60 ft
Str +6 Dex +2 Con +4 Cha +4
Type changes to plant and is immune to critical attacks

All that for 1 feat, 1 horribly broken ridiculous feat lol

[SSGoW]

Allow your druid to change one of feats to greenbound summoning and ashbound or augment summoning and all his animal summons will roll over everything

HD's change to D8's
AC increases by 6 over base creature
Gain a slam attack by size
SLA At will Entangle, pass without trace, and speak with plants, 1/day wall of
thorns
DR 10 slashing/magic
Fast Healing 3
+4 grapple bonus
Resistance to cold and electricity 10
Tremorsense 60 ft
Str +6 Dex +2 Con +4 Cha +4
Type changes to plant and is immune to critical attacks

All that for 1 feat, 1 horribly broken ridiculous feat lol

Where is Greenbound Summoning from? If my current character dies I may play a druid...

[NamelessNPC]

Hit them with with Stinking/Confusion bombs, then harass them with little animals. It shouldn't be that difficult.
If the Alchemist gets a surprise round or moves first, he can disable 2 or more guys in 1 shot.

[jaybird]

Where is Greenbound Summoning from? If my current character dies I may play a druid...

Forgotten Realms, IIRC. Heads up - it's powerful. Like, in the same ballpark as Craft Contingent Spell powerful.