Help with the Monk

[kanachi]

Hiya everyone,

I’ve a player interested in playing a kung-fu style archetype in my next E6 campaign and I am worried that they will find the actual character class “monk” disappointing. I’ve little experience with the class personally but i’ve heard it said a lot how its rather underpowered.

So my question is two fold:

A) Is there another class which can be re-themed well to match the kung-fu style archetype well. If so how would you build such a class and go about the re-theme?

B) Is there a simple adjustment you would make to the monk class in order to up its power level slightly (full bab?). My players are all pretty new so simply relying on them to power game their way out with overly complex optimisation is not the kind of answer i’m looking for.

Remember this is an E6 campaign so only the first few levels are of importance here.

Any help you can offer would be awesome!

[Crasical]

A) Unarmed swordsage, a possible variant to the normal ToB class.

B) I'm actually rather partial to the Pathfinder Monk.

EDIT: I WIN THIS TIME, ASHTAGON

[Ashtagon]

a) Tome of Battle. Swordsage.

b) Full BAB, no penalty on flurry of blows attack rolls, and allow full attacks (including flurry) as a standard action.

[Essence_of_War]

It probably isn't as synergistic as swordsage, but they could always go like:

Monk 2/ Warblade OR Crusader 4 and initiate maneuvers w/ their bare hands.

Still end up w/ 3rd level maneuvers, but the monk base gives some nice bonus feats, and that flair of the unarmed.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The PF Monk gets the equivalent of TWF at a full BAB (which ordinarily it doesn't have) as its flurry of blows, which is a huge improvement over its current Flurry of Blows (which is the equivalent of TWF at its normal 3/4s BAB). It gets fewer attacks at its highest bonus (2 vs. 3), but its highest bonus is also higher. In E6, this doesn't even matter, because the Flurry attack bonus lines up with standard attack bonus at 5th (meaning there's no penalty to use it) and you get a third attack at 6th.

If you wanted to improve upon the Pathfinder Monk's template, you could continue to allow the Monk to qualify for combat maneuver feats and other related feats available to the Monk even without having the requisite ability score or BAB, so a Monk could grab Improved Grapple down the line with one of their E6 feats even if they didn't take it at 1st level. And then--and I think this is probably the best fix you could use for a 3.5 or 3.5P Monk short of grand, sweeping gestures--let the Two-Weapon Fighting line stack with the Pathfinder version of the Monk's flurry of blows (it does in 3.5, but not in Pathfinder, if I recall), recommend Snap Kick and perhaps the actual TWF feat, and allow the Monk to make full attacks (but not not NOT Flurry of Blows) as a standard action. Now, your monk player has the option of making a three-attack flurry or a single-attack standard without feats, or the option of making a three (or more, with penalties) attack flurry or a single (or more, with penalties) attack as a standard action. This way, the monk is able to use their increased mobility with *some*, but not *all*, of their extra attacks (if they choose).

EDIT: For clarity's sake:

What this means is that the Monk's attack bonuses would look something like this:

{table=head]Level|Standard|Flurry|Standard+TWF|Flurry+TWF|Stan dard+TWF+Snap Kick|Flurry+TWF+Snap Kick
1|+0|-1/-1|-2/-2|-3/-3/-3|-4/-4/-4|-5/-5/-5/-5|
2|+1|+0/+0|-1/-1|-2/-2/-2|-3/-3/-3|-4/-4/-4/-4|
3|+2|+1/+1|+0/+0|-1/-1/-1|-2/-2/-2|-3/-3/-3/-3|
4|+3|+2/+2|+1/+1|+0/+0/+0|-1/-1/-1|-2/-2/-2/-2|
5|+3|+3/+3|+1/+1|+1/+1/+1|-1/-1/-1|-1/-1/-1/-1|
6|+4|+4/+4/-1|+2/+2|+2/+2/+2/-3|+0/+0/+0|+0/+0/+0/+0/-5|[/table]

If this isn't enough, offer the Decisive Strike ACF (which allows you to trade flurry for a single attack which does double damage) as a feat option, instead of an "either/or" situation, and/or allow the Monk user to, if they choose to forego any additional attacks using this method (making only a single attack as a standard action), treat their BAB as being full. So you'd use full BAB for a single attack and move, and full BAB for a full-round action flurry, and 3/4ths BAB for a standard action full attack (non-flurry). Which now sounds a lot more confusing than it was before. The chart, then, would look like this (changes in bold):


{table=head]Level|Standard|Flurry|Standard+TWF|Flurry+TWF|Stan dard+TWF+Snap Kick|Flurry+TWF+Snap Kick
1|+1|-1/-1|-2/-2|-3/-3/-3|-4/-4/-4|-5/-5/-5/-5|
2|+2|+0/+0|-1/-1|-2/-2/-2|-3/-3/-3|-4/-4/-4/-4|
3|+3|+1/+1|+0/+0|-1/-1/-1|-2/-2/-2|-3/-3/-3/-3|
4|+4|+2/+2|+1/+1|+0/+0/+0|-1/-1/-1|-2/-2/-2/-2|
5|+5|+3/+3|+1/+1|+1/+1/+1|-1/-1/-1|-1/-1/-1/-1|
6|+6|+4/+4/-1|+2/+2|+2/+2/+2/-3|+0/+0/+0|+0/+0/+0/+0/-5|[/table]

[Togo]

The monk as written is more like a ninja. You have some interesting combat powers, you're nimble and quick and stealthy, but you simply can't stand toe to toe with a seasoned warrior, or a ravening monster.

The kung Fu archetype is more of a fighter, but that's not very flavourful for an unarmed martial artist. As such you should either try a warrior that is suitably flavoured, like swordsage, or try and improve the monk to be more like a fighter and barbarian, and less like a rogue.

The second problem is that monks have a problem with MAD -they need too many stats too high.

[Ceaon]

In an E6 game with inexperienced players, I think a Monk can contribute to a party fine (if built with a little care).

[Draz74]

Assuming your group isn't the type to play with a large array of splatbooks, I'd recommend you just go ahead and use one of the Monk Fixes from the Homebrew Forum.

Jiriku's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) is undoubtedly the most popular, but unsurprisingly, I happen to be more partial to the Monk Fix I wrote myself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11041902&postcount=2). :smallcool: