A Master of Magic

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Good news everyone! I have just received word from one of my friends that he has agreed to join our playgroup. He has asked for help in creating a character, which means that we need the collective D&D savvy of the playground to aid us.

He wants to play a character that is a "bad-ass master wizard." He is going Elf with Elven Generalist, so Master Specialist is out. I showed him MotAO, but he did not like that class, either.

My goal is to find a PrC for him that fits with that theme. Something that can fit into Wizard 5/X 10/Archmage 5 (or whatever amount of archmage is required to finish off the build). Rather than tell him to just play Wizard 13 until he can start taking Archmage levels, I would like to get him into a PrC ASAP, so he can get some interesting class features. He has played in two games (AFAIK), so he has a basic idea of how to play, but I would like to avoid large amounts of dipping, so as not to cause confusion.

Incantatrix was a possible candidate, but I think that may be a little too powerful for this game. In case it matters, our group is an Artificer/Fighter (me), a Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor (no DMM), and a Warblade/Bard/Swiftblade (will eventually go into Sublime Chord).

[Invader]

How about loremaster 10?

[Corwin_of_Amber]

How about loremaster 10?

That class always seems rather bland to me, all it does is add some numerical bonuses. Although, it is better than 10 levels of Wizard.

[Invader]

I always like shadow adept as well. Has a lot more flavor that loremaster but still isn't really OP

[BlueEyes]

Ultimate Magus.

[Waker]

He wants to be an Elven Generalist and he needs a PrC to fill in until he can get to Archmage. Does he have any particular role that he wants to fill, any idea he would like to emulate, favorite playstyle, anything at all that you can tell us to narrow things down a bit? Also what is the relative optimization of the group? Anyways, I'll just list a few random PrCs.

War Weaver (HoB)- Hands down, one of the best buff PrCs you can find. Gives a huge action advantage while sacrificing very little.
Fatespinner (CArc)- Add to rolls and reroll. Nothing wrong with that.
Divine Oracle (CDiv)- Full-progression class. Grants a domain, uncanny and improved uncanny dodge and eventually immunity to surprise. Trap Sense is kinda pointless, but see if your DM will allow it to be replaced with Spell AC from CMage.
Malconvoker (CSco)- Nice summoning class. Gives a very nice improved to the number and strength of creatures you can call.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

He wants to be an Elven Generalist and he needs a PrC to fill in until he can get to Archmage. Does he have any particular role that he wants to fill, any idea he would like to emulate, favorite playstyle, anything at all that you can tell us to narrow things down a bit? Also what is the relative optimization of the group? Anyways, I'll just list a few random PrCs.

War Weaver (HoB)- Hands down, one of the best buff PrCs you can find. Gives a huge action advantage while sacrificing very little.
Fatespinner (CArc)- Add to rolls and reroll. Nothing wrong with that.
Divine Oracle (CDiv)- Full-progression class. Grants a domain, uncanny and improved uncanny dodge and eventually immunity to surprise. Trap Sense is kinda pointless, but see if your DM will allow it to be replaced with Spell AC from CMage.
Malconvoker (CSco)- Nice summoning class. Gives a very nice improved to the number and strength of creatures you can call.

I'll ask him exatly what he wants when I get a chance.

I wouldn't say we're high-op, but we're competant. I'm a Fighter 2/Artificer 6 focusing on armor/weapons/wonderous items with only a bit of wand/scroll use (which I am led to believe is the real power of the class). Our Cleric is focusing on buffing/protecting with some melee as a backup (along with a bit of in-combat healing, bot not too much). Our Bard is a classic melee Bard, using Snowflake Wardance/Slippers of Battledancing along with items and a feat that boosts effective Bard level for IC. We aren't tearing the game apart, but we always have an answer to challenges.

Also, WRT Ultimate Magus, doesn't that lose a lot of CLs if you don't use Illumian?

[Invader]

Ooh you want flavor? Take Arachnomancer and shoot spiders at people all day;
Spider Blast: [Sp]
Once per day, a 10th-level arachnomancer can produce a 50-foot-long, cone-shaped blast of extremely poisonous, normal sized spiders. Every creature within the area of the blast takes 5d4 points of damage and must make 1d4 Fortitude saves against poisons (DC 10 + arachnomancer level + arachnomancer’s Con modifier; 1d6 points of Strength damage for both initial and secondary damage). Each creature is allowed a Reflex save at the same DC for partial effect: Success means the victim takes half damage and need make only one Fortitude saving throw against poison (although the second saving thrown normally required against a poison’s secondary effect still applies.) The spiders fade away at the end of the arachnomancer’s turn.

I can handle fireballs but if someone shot that at me I'd pack up and call it a day and I'm not even particularly afraid of spiders lol.

There's some fluff requirements but they can be changed easily enough.

[Waker]

Well, I don't know about Illumians interacting with Ultimate Magus, but practiced spellcaster can. Take Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1, apply Practiced Spellcaster to Sorcercer. The end result (Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10) would have 13/9 caster levels for the two classes with 5 character levels left over (Archmage). At level 20, (Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archage 5) you would be 18/9 casting.

[Seharvepernfan]

My favorite "Master Wizard" build is Wizard 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5, actually.

I know loremaster isn't exactly fantastic, but what makes it stick out to me is:

-lore = bardic knowledge (with your high int)
-UMD as a class skill
-free identify at 7th level (I think)

[Yuukale]

I think that nothing spells out "master of magic" better than incantatrix (alters magic in its raw form fluff-wise by mechanically applying metamagic effects to spells).

OR

Dweomerkeeper. You're the god(ess) of magic's personal caretaker of magic itself, thus getting to know a few spells so intrinsically that you don't need to prepare them.

Although ultimate magus may say "I know all arcane spells" (kinda) those two above are more like "Magic is my biatch".

[Alleran]

Perhaps IotSV might imply mastery of prismatic magic, or "colours of magic" (or something to that effect)? That said, Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper (particularly Dweomerkeeper, though you'll need either a level of Cleric or get your DM to agree to an Arcane Disciple + Southern Magician combination qualifier) fit the bill easiest.

[kabreras]

Well, I don't know about Illumians interacting with Ultimate Magus, but practiced spellcaster can. Take Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1, apply Practiced Spellcaster to Sorcercer. The end result (Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10) would have 13/9 caster levels for the two classes with 5 character levels left over (Archmage). At level 20, (Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archage 5) you would be 18/9 casting.

If you go the ultimate magus road focusing on wizard, better go with a beguiller than a sorcerer.

[Slipperychicken]

If he wants to do awesome magic stuff all day without spells/day cramping his style, Reserve feats are the way to go. Take Fiery Burst, and now you're lobbing mini-Fireballs around at will, burning everything you want, forever. Invisible Needle to fire force-lasers at people.

Uncanny Forethought (feat, either EoE or BoVD. Prepare [Int mod] of spells as spontaneous) might be nice for a newbie who doesn't want to stress so much about preparing the right spell every day. Spontaneous Divination ACF can make preparation a lot easier, since you no longer have to prepare Divination spells. Newbies tend to think "Divination sucks, it doesn't let you blast things!", so you can let him not prepare any, then pull one out when he really needs it.

[Cor1]

In! Can! Ta! Trix!

The Best at Magic, Period.


Iot7V is also awesome, because unkillable Badass Master Of Magic.

[Alleran]

Iot7V is also awesome, because unkillable Badass Master Of Magic.
You can also stick both of them together on the one build.

[Cor1]

You can also stick both of them together on the one build.

Been there, done that. With Spellguard on top.

DM : -"And you hope to survive at lvl24 with 54HP how?"
Me : -"Selective AMF. Prismatic Sphere. Genesis. Astral Projection. 7 Veils. 24 Contingent, Quickened, Maximized, Persistent, Extended Time Stops."

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Okay, so I talked to him about exactly what he wants and explained some of the different roles of the schools. What he wants to do is focus on Conjuration BFC with blasting/debuffing. He said he wants to be the type of wizard that can manipulate magic in a way no ther wizard can and is feared by his enemies.

[Answerer]

Well, Archmage is extremely appropriate. Incantatrix is too, but... yeah.

I like the Ultimate Magus route, personally. It adds a dimension and "mastery" of his magic that other Wizards don't have.

[Cor1]

Okay, so I talked to him about exactly what he wants and explained some of the different roles of the schools. What he wants to do is focus on Conjuration BFC with blasting/debuffing. He said he wants to be the type of wizard that can manipulate magic in a way no ther wizard can and is feared by his enemies.

Yup, that's an Incantatrix all right.

I'd recommend not taking Archmage, or only one for Arcane Reach. Four levels of Spellguard would be much better for the build. (I had both, and almost never used Archmage abilities. It's still good to get Wish as an SLA to get rid of the XP cost, but I didn't have Wish.)

[Alleran]

(I had both, and almost never used Archmage abilities. It's still good to get Wish as an SLA to get rid of the XP cost, but I didn't have Wish.)
But that's not how Archmage SLAs work regarding Wish spells and the XP cost?

"The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP."

You can use it to erase the cost of a focus, since that's not technically a material component, but it will still cost XP to cast it if the spell costs XP to cast normally. And the Wish spell does cost XP to cast normally.

[Little Brother]

Yup, that's an Incantatrix all right.

I'd recommend not taking Archmage, or only one for Arcane Reach. Four levels of Spellguard would be much better for the build. (I had both, and almost never used Archmage abilities. It's still good to get Wish as an SLA to get rid of the XP cost, but I didn't have Wish.):smallconfused:

Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.Not seein' it.

EDIT:SwordsagedJade Phoenix Mage'd!

[Cor1]

But that's not how Archmage SLAs work regarding Wish spells and the XP cost?

"The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP."

You can use it to erase the cost of a focus, since that's not technically a material component, but it will still cost XP to cast it if the spell costs XP to cast normally. And the Wish spell does cost XP to cast normally.

Oh. Okay then. As I said, I didn't have Wish at that time, and had better uses for Archmage abilities (which I didn't use anyway) with that build.

So yeah, it's just to get a spell to cast 2/d without preparation for the cost of its slot. Still may be good for Time Stop, even if that one would be better if Contingencied several times.

[Slipperychicken]

:smallconfused:
Not seein' it.

EDIT:SwordsagedJade Phoenix Mage'd!

Archmage SLA still requires xp and costly materials, much like other classes which cast spells as SLAs. I find it's a good idea to go over class features before deciding that they give you free Wishes :smalltongue:



SRD Archmage; High Arcana: Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.


EDIT: Swordsage Double Combo!

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Okay, so we did some talking and he's chaged his idea a bit. We would like to know if this actually works.

He will be playing a Lesser Tiefling (remove LA, lose SLAs and become humanoid).

Wizard 5/Fiend-Blooded 10/X 5 using Uncanny Forethought to qualify for Fiend-Blooded. Does this work?

What are some good low-level spells to use with Spell Mastery/Uncanny Forethought?

[deuxhero]

I would like to get him into a PrC ASAP, so he can get some interesting class features.

"Spells" isn't?

How low level? Generally you use something with the end result "get my spellbook/a backup spellbook back".

[Little Brother]

Archmage SLA still requires xp and costly materials, much like other classes which cast spells as SLAs. I find it's a good idea to go over class features before deciding that they give you free Wishes :smalltongue:My "Not seein' it" was in response to him saying he could get free wishes, when the class feature said he couldn't. That's why there was all that bolding.

Okay, so we did some talking and he's chaged his idea a bit. We would like to know if this actually works.

He will be playing a Lesser Tiefling (remove LA, lose SLAs and become humanoid).

Wizard 5/Fiend-Blooded 10/X 5 using Uncanny Forethought to qualify for Fiend-Blooded.Honestly? That's a pretty crappy build. I mean, you're still a wizard, but, really? You take a mediocre feat and lose one CL for? Some spells? You're a wizard, you buy spells for a coupe hundred GP. Mediocre bonuses? Not worth it. Smiting spell is garbage. Fiendish Exaltation? Congrats, you gain meh resistances and some mostly useless stat bonuses. All of these are easily replicatable by low level spells. A couple levels might be nice, just to pick up a couple of goodies like Speak with Dead, but mostly, useless.

I actually started a thread a while ago, on the ideal wizard. Basically, one thing was near unanimous: Three levels of Divine Oracle, and taking Mindbender and Mindsight at level 6. If he wants to play a genius wizard, go eidetic Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 4/Divine Oracle 3/Incantatrix 6/Something 1. With Divine Oracle's reroll and those extra known spells, and the Spontaneous Divination ACF(YOU MUST HAVE. Seriously, that amazing), you are one of the greatest Diviners in the world, easily. Mindbender - you can see people's brains, and there's near nothing they can do to stop it. Incantatrix's MM fun-ness is just another part of him being just a skilled wizard. You may as well go Grey Elf domain wizard, for 20 Int and those bonus spells.

What are some good low-level spells to use with Spell Mastery/Uncanny Forethought?Uncanny Forethought doesn't need to use the spells you selected with Spell Mastery, you know. What level are you starting at?

[Slipperychicken]

What are some good low-level spells to use with Spell Mastery/Uncanny Forethought?

UF can be used with any spell you know, although non-Mastered ones are cast with a Full-Round action (honestly, that's not a huge limitation. It can even decrease the casting times of many spells, like Apocalypse From the Sky or Phantom Steed). For Spell Mastery, you want to take spells which you would need to retrieve (or survive without) your spellbook. If you interpret Secret Page to create free spellbook pages, that's extremely cheesy handy. Rope Trick is nice one, especially if your GM is the type to dump you in the wilderness nude without your spellbook.


These are some old threads on the subject
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6231.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92910


To get the most out of UF, put a bunch of "what if..?" spells in your spellbook. I mean, the kinds that are situational enough that you normally wouldn't prepare them (things like Water Breathing), but might just save your bacon in that one occasion when you need/want it.

Uncanny Forethought requires you to reserve slots during preparation, so I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify him for Fiend-Blooded. The PrC looks a bit underwhelming anyway, especially when it loses a caster level at the end.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Honestly? That's a pretty crappy build. I mean, you're still a wizard, but, really? You take a mediocre feat and lose one CL for? Some spells? You're a wizard, you buy spells for a coupe hundred GP. Mediocre bonuses? Not worth it. Smiting spell is garbage. Fiendish Exaltation? Congrats, you gain meh resistances and some mostly useless stat bonuses. All of these are easily replicatable by low level spells. A couple levels might be nice, just to pick up a couple of goodies like Speak with Dead, but mostly, useless.

It's actually for the +2 Int over the class levels. He is taking Spell Focus for Enchantment and Conjuration, since he wants to have high DCs (I know it's not optimal, but they're not that bad, right?). We were also hoping that there were some good non-wizard spells that could be added to the list, although we had not yet checked.


I actually started a thread a while ago, on the ideal wizard. Basically, one thing was near unanimous: Three levels of Divine Oracle, and taking Mindbender and Mindsight at level 6. If he wants to play a genius wizard, go eidetic Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 4/Divine Oracle 3/Incantatrix 6/Something 1. With Divine Oracle's reroll and those extra known spells, and the Spontaneous Divination ACF(YOU MUST HAVE. Seriously, that amazing), you are one of the greatest Diviners in the world, easily. Mindbender - you can see people's brains, and there's near nothing they can do to stop it. Incantatrix's MM fun-ness is just another part of him being just a skilled wizard. You may as well go Grey Elf domain wizard, for 20 Int and those bonus spells.

That actually does sound pretty cool. I always sort of suspected that the Incantatrix was a bit over-hyped for power level. He won't be breaking the campaign by accident, will he?


Uncanny Forethought doesn't need to use the spells you selected with Spell Mastery, you know. What level are you starting at?

Yeah, but there's no reason to not choose good ones for the standard-action conversion. I had suggested finding some good low level save-or-sucks in order to hieghten with those spontaneous slots, for some more versatility.

We are currently level 8, but he will be coming in at half way between 7 and 8.

[Andion Isurand]

You could... consider using 4 levels of the non-gnome adaptation of the Shadowcraft Mage in tandem with the following feats: Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Arcane Disciple (luck, zeal or hope)

That way you can duplicate Miracle using the Shadow Illusion class feature and Silent Image. :smallbiggrin:

[Seharvepernfan]

eidetic Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 4/Divine Oracle 3/Incantatrix 6/Something 1.

I have a few questions:

What is eidetic wizard and what is it from?

Divine Oracle?

Is this the incantatrix from Magic of Faerun?

[Andion Isurand]

The eidetic wizard ACF is from Dragon Magazine #357
Basically you trade in your familiar and scribe scroll feat for the ability to scribe spells directly into your mind, taking the same amount of time and gp (gp for special incense rather then inks)

But if he goes for the elven wizard, I would keep the familiar.
Choose a hummingbird familiar (Dragon Magazine 323 pg 98) and the 3rd elven wizard substitution level for a total of +8 initiative while the familiar is within arms reach.

Incantatrix is in the Player's Guide to Faerun.

[Little Brother]

It's actually for the +2 Int over the class levels. He is taking Spell Focus for Enchantment and Conjuration, since he wants to have high DCs (I know it's not optimal, but they're not that bad, right?). We were also hoping that there were some good non-wizard spells that could be added to the list, although we had not yet checked.Yes, they are. You will be kinda feat-tight, and those are beyond garbage. They're almost on toughness's level. I mean, your feat line-up will be Iron Will, [insert Metamagic you want here], (With Flaws, you get Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought), Skill Focus: Know(Religion), and Mindsight at level 6(and one bonus from Incant 1). If he is an Grey Elf, he can put off Skill Focus and nab it at level 9, but if he's a human, the above is best.

I don't think you get any(Well, you do get Commune from Oracle Domain, but eh. You really shouldn't need them. If you want to build a theurge, that's something else entirely(And something awesome enough, I spent hours working on a convenient little guide in my sig).

That actually does sound pretty cool. I always sort of suspected that the Incantatrix was a bit over-hyped for power level. He won't be breaking the campaign by accident, will he?Well, this build is basically taking everything a wizard does, and making it better, so if he'd wreck a campaign with a wizard, then absolutely, but if he doesn't go for breaking your campaign, his damage will be okay, his divination will be nice, and he'll be able to do what he wants in a very good way. Remember, nothing short of Mindlessness blocks Mindsight, not Mind Blank, by strict RAW not even AMF.
pquote]Yeah, but there's no reason to not choose good ones for the standard-action conversion. I had suggested finding some good low level save-or-sucks in order to hieghten with those spontaneous slots, for some more versatility.[/quote]Meh. If he his picks are bad, he can abuse retraining. I wouldn't be too worried.

We are currently level 8, but he will be coming in at half way between 7 and 8.
So he'll be, let's say, a Grey Domain Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatar(Male name for it) 1, with Iron Will, let's say Empower, Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, Mindsight, and, how about, Invisible Spell?

I have a few questions:
What is eidetic wizard and what is it from?Give up Scribe Scroll, familiar, your spellbook is your brain(You still have to pay to learn spells, but it's incense, not ink). Basically, you cannot lose your spellbook(And you start with a spellbook you can sell). Dr357.

Divine Oracle?Complete Divine. Gives you oracle domain, some other nifty stuffs, and some serious Divination boosts. Full casting, easy to qualify for.

Is this the incantatrix from Magic of Faerun?Nope. PGtF.

[Elric VIII]

That's a good build that Little Brother has posted. I had a build similar to that, once.

With that build you can also qualify freely for Loremaster with the prerequisite for Divine Oracle/Incantatrix (plus a few skill points in knowledge skills). If you take your first level when you have at least 24 Int (magic items count for this) you can get a free feat right away.

Also, with some skill point investment you can qualify for the excellent class Unseen Seer (CMage). Two levels of this class can get you the spell Divine Insight for up to +15 on a skill check (such as Spellcraft, for Incantatrix).

Since you're already an Elf, you can qualify for Ruathar (Races of the Wild) rather easily. This class will grant you all of the prerequisite skills for Unseen Seer as class skills.

[killianh]

If he's focusing on conjuration and buff\debuff then is he still sticking with elven generalist?

For a real bad ass with magic would might want something with a little bit of control magic in there. A bad ass of magic is the guy that looks at you and you go poof. If he wants you to do something you do it, whether you're mortal or otherwise. A bad ass of magic isn't just a bad ass; he's a god that can alter reality, turn you into a puppy, and melt your home country. Or worse: boost you and make you do it.

For a bad ass of magic I would go for a straight battle field control build using wizard 5\incantrix 5\IofSV 10 building your spell list from abjuration, conjuration, enchantment, and transmutation ignoring the other schools.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394

this is the link for playing god. it'll have most of the information you'll need to pull something good together that fits what you want. Other wizard guides can be found in my signature.

[Elric VIII]

An interesting note, if you're using Elven Generalist with Domain Wizard, it appears that you can choose your domain slots as those you leave unprepared for Uncanny Forethought. The Domain Wizard variant only limits what spells you can prepare in those slots, so spontaneous casting should work.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Incantatrix causes you to ban a school of spells, do you get to keep/cast spells of that school you learned before you took Incantatrix levels?

[Answerer]

Incantatrix causes you to ban a school of spells, do you get to keep/cast spells of that school you learned before you took Incantatrix levels?
Yuuuup. Which is another reason it's crazy good. It's biggest drawback is one you can mitigate in a lot of ways.

[Elric VIII]

Don't forget that a Wizard can add spells to his spellbook even if he cannot yet cast them.

Although I'm not sure if you would still be able to use wands and other spell trigger/completion items of those schools (even if it's a spell you have learned).

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Thanks for the help with the build, everyone. I think I'm going to make my recommendation for the Divine Oracle/Incantatrix with a dip of Ruathar/Unseen Seer. I will also encourage him to make an account and check out this thread and ask questions of his own.

[Arcanist]

Ultimate Magus.

I agree, I like Ultimate Magus :smallbiggrin:


“You insist on attempting to master magic, but magic is no one's slave. Treat the magic as your partner, as I have, and you too may reach enlightenment.”


If you go the ultimate magus road focusing on wizard, better go with a beguiller than a sorcerer.

So true specialize and ban Illusions and Enchantments (Since your getting them all from Beguiler)

[Little Brother]

So true specialize and ban Illusions and Enchantments (Since your getting them all from Beguiler)NO!

Enchantment gives you Mindrape, among other toys, and Illusion gives you Shades/Greater Shadow Evocation/etc.

Ban Necro and Evocation, MAYBE Enchantment if he's some goody-two-shoes(And then you Focus, cuz' focusing is amazing). Then, you're gonna wanna focus Conjuration or Transmutation(I like Conj, but, believe it or not, its even more broken than Transmutation(Until you get RIDICULOUSLY high OP, in which they're about equal)).

But, seriously, Ultimate Magus lets you give up some levels of Wizard to get gimped Beguiler/Sorcerer casting. I admit, Beguiler and its cousins are better, because of Versatile Caster, but still, I, personally, dislike the class. Overhyped, really.
And yes, I do have a borderline unhealthy obsession with comma. Why do you ask?

[Arcanist]

NO!

Enchantment gives you Mindrape, among other toys, and Illusion gives you Shades/Greater Shadow Evocation/etc.

I've never met a DM that would allow me to use Mindrape :smallannoyed: ...except that one... long story short i ruled the world and inspired another campaign :smallamused:


Ban Necro and Evocation, MAYBE Enchantment if he's some goody-two-shoes(And then you Focus, cuz' focusing is amazing). Then, you're gonna wanna focus Conjuration or Transmutation(I like Conj, but, believe it or not, its even more broken than Transmutation(Until you get RIDICULOUSLY high OP, in which they're about equal)).

I like Necromancy and Evocations... :smallfrown: however I also like true necromancer so we obviously know my head is screwed on right :smalltongue:


But, seriously, Ultimate Magus lets you give up some levels of Wizard to get gimped Beguiler/Sorcerer casting. I admit, Beguiler and its cousins are better, because of Versatile Caster, but still, I, personally, dislike the class. Overhyped, really.

When are you going to finish your Theurge handbook? :smallannoyed:


And yes, I do have a borderline unhealthy obsession with comma. Why do you ask?

We all have our little kinks... yours is just with commas :smalltongue:

[Little Brother]

I've never met a DM that would allow me to use Mindrape :smallannoyed: ...except that one... long story short i ruled the world and inspired another campaign :smallamused:I know, right? The only time I've been allowed to use it was at an evil campaign where the objective was to be an OP evil ****, take over the world, etc(So we could then make a bunch of good PCs 10 years later, in game, to free the world, kill the epic wizard/cleric/etc(Without Epic Spellcasting, we had a chance).

I like Necromancy and Evocations... :smallfrown: however I also like true necromancer so we obviously know my head is screwed on right :smalltongue:I love Necromancy and Evocation, too. Wizards who blast the bajeebus out of things(At low levels, before they become gods) and DNs are some of my favorite favorite classes). Those schools are are totally suboptimal, though. I'm here to help optimization, it was not specified that those were wanted, so unless he goes with the Generalist, I should recommend he bans them.

And, yes, you are horribly messed up. Liking the True Necro? Ugh...:smallyuk:
:smalltongue:

When are you going to finish your Theurge handbook? :smallannoyed:Honestly? I have no idea. I've been REALLY busy lately(Truth be told, I've almost forgotten about it, had to focus on other things in life for a long while). I'll try to work on it soonish, so you should post your input there(We shouldn't be polluting the thread with off-topics like this).

We all have our little kinks... yours is just with commas :smalltongue:Heh, I guess.

[Arcanist]

Honestly? I have no idea. I've been REALLY busy lately(Truth be told, I've almost forgotten about it, had to focus on other things in life for a long while). I'll try to work on it soonish, so you should post your input there(We shouldn't be polluting the thread with off-topics like this).

Fair enough, I found a build using True Necro that allows you to get a single 9th level spellcasting :smalltongue: but that is for another day :smallamused:

[Sargon]

Hello everyone!

I'm corwin's friend. I really like the Incantrix class and Mindbender. Thanks for the help. I am not crazy about the Divine Oracle. Are there any other classes that I can take for 4 levels and not lose casting?

[Little Brother]

Hello everyone!

I'm corwin's friend. I really like the Incantrix class and Mindbender. Thanks for the help. I am not crazy about the Divine Oracle. Are there any other classes that I can take for 4 levels and not lose casting?If you are okay with being a gnome(Or you use any of the adaptions), you COULD go with Shadowcraft Mage. It is really broken, but I have a soft spot for that class. If you can blow two feats(Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige), you can get into Anima Mage without a level in binder, and will have just enough levels for some free Metamagic, IIRC. Mage of the Arcane Order, while a pain, and I, personally, dislike the class, is kinda nifty.

It should be said, though, that Divine Oracle is probably my favorite PrC. It gives you some free spells, a superior Evasion, and the one of the single most hugely powerful, if correctly used, abilities, Divination Enhancement. Divination isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I love it.

I guess you could pick up levels of Sacred Exorcist 1 for Turn Undead, but really, so long as you don't lose caster levels(At least before you have 9s), it's a fine option.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

If you are okay with being a gnome(Or you use any of the adaptions), you COULD go with Shadowcraft Mage. It is really broken, but I have a soft spot for that class. If you can blow two feats(Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige), you can get into Anima Mage without a level in binder, and will have just enough levels for some free Metamagic, IIRC. Mage of the Arcane Order, while a pain, and I, personally, dislike the class, is kinda nifty.

It should be said, though, that Divine Oracle is probably my favorite PrC. It gives you some free spells, a superior Evasion, and the one of the single most hugely powerful, if correctly used, abilities, Divination Enhancement. Divination isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I love it.

I guess you could pick up levels of Sacred Exorcist 1 for Turn Undead, but really, so long as you don't lose caster levels(At least before you have 9s), it's a fine option.

Are there any interesting PrCs he can take by virtue of his spontaneous casting from Uncanny Forethought?

[Little Brother]

Are there any interesting PrCs he can take by virtue of his spontaneous casting from Uncanny Forethought?Most of them require a spontaneous class, so no. Spontaneous Divination might let him qualify, but, really, none of them really matter, as far as I can say.

[Arcanist]

If you are okay with being a gnome(Or you use any of the adaptions), you COULD go with Shadowcraft Mage. It is really broken, but I have a soft spot for that class. If you can blow two feats(Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige), you can get into Anima Mage without a level in binder, and will have just enough levels for some free Metamagic, IIRC. Mage of the Arcane Order, while a pain, and I, personally, dislike the class, is kinda nifty.

Shadowcraft Mage and Anima Mage... Ah such good prestige classes... Nocternomancer & Mystic theruge for continued casting progression from whenever your take Nocternomancer. Honestly if you want to be a classic Master of Magic taking Wizard 20 and actually performing arcane tricks that befit a true master of the arcane can be labeled that...

I still vote of Ultimate Magus and try and get as many levels of Incantrix as possible (6 i believe) :smalltongue:

I recommend Wizard5 / Incantatrix10 / Archmage5 and now you potentially have absolute control over all magic (Just ban Necromancy... nobody besides me likes it :smallfrown:)

[Sargon]

I was planning on banning Illusion for Incantrix, I just don't like the school. That means that Shadowcraft mage won't work. And I assume Nocternomancer requires illusion as well?

[Elric VIII]

Fatespinner (CAr) is decent for 4 levels. You can add up to 4 total points to you spell DCs each day and force one additional reroll from any character (friend or foe).

[Little Brother]

I was planning on banning Illusion for Incantrix, I just don't like the school. That means that Shadowcraft mage won't work. And I assume Nocternomancer requires illusion as well?Even if you don't want to go Shadowcraft mage, don't ban Illusion. It has beauties like Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and Shades. Versatile school, which is what Wizards live on.

Ban Evocation or Necromancy.

[Arcanist]

Even if you don't want to go Shadowcraft mage, don't ban Illusion. It has beauties like Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and Shades. Versatile school, which is what Wizards live on.

Ban Evocation or Necromancy.

Ban Evocations since you can just replicated it with Illusion :smalltongue: (Honestly your only losing Meteor Swarm, Invoke Magic, Crushing Hand, Instant Refuge, Reality Maelstrom...) Evocations doesn't have much for 9th level spells but Invoke Magic is sure as hell enough to make me like Evocations...

[Little Brother]

Ban Evocations since you can just replicated it with Illusion :smalltongue: (Honestly your only losing Meteor Swarm, Invoke Magic, Crushing Hand, Instant Refuge, Reality Maelstrom...) Evocations doesn't have much for 9th level spells but Invoke Magic is sure as hell enough to make me like Evocations...Invoke Magic(And 100% Contingencies) are enough for me to not immediately ban Evocation. That's why I said "Or Necromancy," because it tends to be useless for all those not focusing on it(Beyond, you know, Shivering Touch and the Enervation chain, which are easy to live without).

[Answerer]

100% Contingencies
At least strictly speaking, Greater Shadow Evocation's "60% real" figure has absolutely no effect whatsoever when using it with Contingency. It would be a reasonable houserule to have the unrealness of the spell transfer to the spell that has been made contingent, but that's not actually in the rules.

Something like having the Contingency have only a 60% chance of working would also be interesting; I do not know if anyone's tried that. It would certainly make a lot of wizards think twice about banning Evocation.


But you'd seriously be keeping it pretty much only for Contingency. There are a few other Evocation spells worth using as long as you've got it, but not worth banning something else over.


Also, echoing the sentiment that Illusion is a very powerful school. Most of the Wizard's best defensive spells are in Illusion.

[Elric VIII]

At least strictly speaking, Greater Shadow Evocation's "60% real" figure has absolutely no effect whatsoever when using it with Contingency. It would be a reasonable houserule to have the unrealness of the spell transfer to the spell that has been made contingent, but that's not actually in the rules.

Something like having the Contingency have only a 60% chance of working would also be interesting; I do not know if anyone's tried that. It would certainly make a lot of wizards think twice about banning Evocation.


But you'd seriously be keeping it pretty much only for Contingency. There are a few other Evocation spells worth using as long as you've got it, but not worth banning something else over.


Also, echoing the sentiment that Illusion is a very powerful school. Most of the Wizard's best defensive spells are in Illusion.

Don't you automatically disbelieve an illusion that you know is an illusion? Because that would make that trick impossible.

[Answerer]

Don't you automatically disbelieve an illusion that you know is an illusion? Because that would make that trick impossible.
Shadow Evocation et al. are Illusion (Shadow) spells, which make them partially real. I don't think anyone's ever argued that you believe your own Shadow Contingency to be fully real, it's just that being partially real (at least as far as RAW goes) is perfectly good in the case of Contingency.

[TuggyNE]

Shadow Evocation et al. are Illusion (Shadow) spells, which make them partially real. I don't think anyone's ever argued that you believe your own Shadow Contingency to be fully real, it's just that being partially real (at least as far as RAW goes) is perfectly good in the case of Contingency.

What about this clause?
Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect. (It's from shadow evocation, which greater inherits from.)

[Sargon]

I have changed my plan a bit and I will be playing it this Wed. I would like a few pointers. I have decided on an Elf Conjuration Specialist with Abrupt Jaunt. I decided I don't want Mindbender/Mindsight.

I will be taking Spell Mastery at level 3 and Uncanny Forethought at level 6. What are some good 1-2 level spells that would help me when I don't have a spellbook?

How useful is Spell Penetration? Are there any items that can substitute for this feat?

Between Specialist and Incantrix I will be losing Evocation, Necromancy, and Illusion. I am taking Incantatrix at level 6. I was told that I can cast any spells from the school I prohibit with Incantrix that I learn before I take levels in the class. Is this true? Which school would be most beneficial for level 1-3 spells, if it is?

[ryu]

I'm pretty sure color spray is illusion and used properly it is a nasty little beast at low levels.

''What's that? Group of orcs a few CR above me? TASTE THE RAINBOW!''

Suddenly all blind and ready to be mopped up by the rest of the party. Heck ready to be mopped up by you if you have any kind of ranged weapon.

[Answerer]

How useful is Spell Penetration? Are there any items that can substitute for this feat?
Assay Spell Resistance is a spell that is quite a lot better than the feat; when you get high enough level that SR is a concern, it's worth preparing.

Or just preparing spells with SR: No. There's quite a lot of them, especially in Conjuration.


I will be losing Evocation, Necromancy, and Illusion. I am taking Incantatrix at level 6.
I would strongly reconsider Illusion. Necromancy's pretty good but lose-able. Illusion... well, it's not Conjuration or Transmutation (which are never-lose schools... for that matter it's not Divination either), but it is definitely 3rd-place among the schools. Illusion gets you back access to Evocation (Shadow Evocation et al.) which is crucial for things like Contingency, plus Illusion is your #1 defensive school – you really want some of the better Illusion spells for that.

Meanwhile, the entire Enchantment school is [Mind-Affecting]. An enormous array of creatures (all Constructs, Oozes, Undead, and Vermin) are completely immune to the school, and anything that isn't can get Mind Blank at high levels and become immune to it. This is a serious problem.

Also, Enchantment... sort of lacks a niche. It depends how frequently you'll be able to put mind-control to good use. In a dungeon-crawl, it's useless: mind-control is just another save-or-lose. Plenty of other schools offer that. In a setting with lots of politics and intrigue among low-level humanoids, it's massively better, because now you have very good targets to use mind-control on.


I was told that I can cast any spells from the school I prohibit with Incantrix that I learn before I take levels in the class. Is this true?
Terrifyingly, it is.

If you're going to lose it, lose Illusion last. Definitely get, for example, Mirror Image.

[Sargon]

Maybe I'll delay Incantrix to level 8 to get a few of the good low level enchantment spells like charm person/monster and suggestion. I'm looking at the phb and spell compendium and the low level ones are what really interest me.

Now, what about what tuggyne and elric said about shadow evocation? That seems like it means that I can't get contingency.

[Answerer]

Maybe I'll delay Incantrix to level 8 to get a few of the good low level enchantment spells like charm person/monster and suggestion. I'm looking at the phb and spell compendium and the low level ones are what really interest me.
That's a good idea. Enchantments are massively better at low levels than high levels (when immunity to them becomes stupidly-common), and honestly if you can't get what you want with Charm Person then you aren't trying hard enough.


Now, what about what tuggyne and elric said about shadow evocation? That seems like it means that I can't get contingency.
Oh right, that. I don't honestly know; it's a thing that gets suggested so frequently that I don't know the exact basis for it working. On some level, you should be able to willingly fail the saving throw, but that's a bit ridiculous. I don't know if there is a better rationale for allowing it.

You could talk to your DM about it, but realistically Contingency just might be the single greatest game-changer spell that's below 9th-level, just for the sheer breaking of assumptions that it has. Really only Celerity is competition for it, and for pretty much the same reason. So most DMs will be (or should be) looking for any excuse to keep it out of their games, so I wouldn't expect that to go far.

Though that may be for the best.

[Yuukale]

[QUOTE=Sargon
I was told that I can cast any spells from the school I prohibit with Incantrix that I learn before I take levels in the class. Is this true?


Terrifyingly, it is.

If you're going to lose it, lose Illusion last. Definitely get, for example, Mirror Image.[/QUOTE]

Does that mean that I may learn a higher level spell, although not being able to cast it until level X and thus, when I hit it with Incantatrix I'll be able to cast and prepare it normally?

[Answerer]

Does that mean that I may learn a higher level spell, although not being able to cast it until level X and thus, when I hit it with Incantatrix I'll be able to cast and prepare it normally?
Err... ask your DM? And if he says yes, he's a madman.

[Sargon]

So, I think the sane thing to do is just treat it as a normal banned school. I can (probably) survive without contingency and the enchantments.

[Elric VIII]

I think there's a feat in Dragon Magazine that lets you learn up to 3 spells from a banned school (only one school for all 3).

[Yuukale]

Err... ask your DM? And if he says yes, he's a madman.

Just exploring RAW here. This seems to be the kind of hole a Theoretical Op could exploit.

[Answerer]

Yeah, but I don't think there is any unambiguous RAW answer to that. Could be wrong; haven't looked at the text in a while. I've never actually played with an Incantatrix being involved at any point.

[TuggyNE]

Oh right, that. I don't honestly know; it's a thing that gets suggested so frequently that I don't know the exact basis for it working. On some level, you should be able to willingly fail the saving throw, but that's a bit ridiculous. I don't know if there is a better rationale for allowing it.

Basically there's some dispute on whether, by strict RAW, "need no save" means you auto-succeed (and thus auto-disbelieve), or whether you can still choose to auto-fail. I would say you probably can't, but I'm not an expert on the subject. (And by common sense it probably doesn't work, for what that's worth when magic is involved.)


You could talk to your DM about it, but realistically [i]Contingency just might be the single greatest game-changer spell that's below 9th-level, just for the sheer breaking of assumptions that it has. Really only Celerity is competition for it, and for pretty much the same reason. So most DMs will be (or should be) looking for any excuse to keep it out of their games, so I wouldn't expect that to go far.

Though that may be for the best.

This is pretty much it; if your DM is fine with shenanigans giving you two awesome spells from a generally subpar school, then that's fine, but in a lot of cases that won't work out.

[Cor1]

There exists a feat named Craft Contingent Spell.

No one knows it or what? It's in the Complete Arcane.

The only reason to not ban Evocation is Invoke Magic.