Too many Chiefs...?

[INDYSTAR188]

So last weekend I killed my first PC of the campaign (and actually my first in like 7 or 8 years lol). They were fighting a shadow dragon in a chase encounter and the Monk decided to wrap his spiked chain around the dragons neck and.... I'm still not really sure what his end goal was. But needless to say the dragon takes off with him on it's back over a chasm in the underdark. He ended up killing it (it only had 45 hp's at this point) and of course they both fell to the bottom of the chasm.

So, now he's choosing to be an Artificer, which is one of my favorite classes. The trouble is we now have the following for a party:
-Dwarf Warlord
-Half Elf Bard
- Artificer
-Eladrin Fighter
-Half Elf Paladin
and very rarely a Drow Ranger.

My question is can this party be effective? Is it going to take them 45 minutes to kill a single enemy? Do they have to many leaders? What can I do to challenge them appropriately while at the same time keeping combat from dragging on?

[NecroRebel]

It depends on how the bard, warlord, and fighter are built. If the first two are made such that they can give extra attacks to the third (or the ranger when present), battles will go fast. Leaders, in general, are actually an offensive role that deals high damage by enabling allies to hit harder or more, so if they're able to do that, killing stuff is easy.

If you want to challenge them, using lots of minions would probably do it, though it would be annoying as hell. Minions with ranged attacks in particular could likely drop one of the squishier PCs in one round if they all focused fire at once. Avoid using solo creatures as they'll have enough healing to effortlessly outheal its damage (actually, avoiding the use of solos is a good idea in general; even with the later guidelines, they're still not dangerous enough to be as threatening as standard monsters or a standard/elite mix).

[DragonBaneDM]

Also, Artificers can help to boost damage rolls. Heck, so can Paladins. Wrath of God will help your party in a big way.

So what you really want to go for is having a Fighter who smacks stuff around really hard, and I think your party will be in good shape!

When the Drow shows up, stuff should drop quicker.

[hamishspence]

Long before 4E, OoTS had a comic which showcased the advantages of two leaders- clerics, in this case:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html

though it also made the issue of combat dragging also clear.

[INDYSTAR188]

Long before 4E, OoTS had a comic which showcased the advantages of two leaders- clerics, in this case:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html

though it also made the issue of combat dragging also clear.

Well played Sir.

[INDYSTAR188]

Also, Artificers can help to boost damage rolls. Heck, so can Paladins. Wrath of God will help your party in a big way.

So what you really want to go for is having a Fighter who smacks stuff around really hard, and I think your party will be in good shape!

When the Drow shows up, stuff should drop quicker.

The fighter is a Greatspear type. He kinda feels like a semi-controller because he's always using Footwork Lure + Polearm Momentum to knock people prone and marking them. He's not very happy w/his damage output. I told him when he does multiple attacks he can mark each enemy he attacked and that plus combat superiority could lead to big damage but I think he just want's to do more.

[DragonBaneDM]

The fighter is a Greatspear type. He kinda feels like a semi-controller because he's always using Footwork Lure + Polearm Momentum to knock people prone and marking them. He's not very happy w/his damage output. I told him when he does multiple attacks he can mark each enemy he attacked and that plus combat superiority could lead to big damage but I think he just want's to do more.

Alrighty, cool. What's your Paladin like? I just remembered that a high Strength Paladin can be a rather effective Striker as well.

[INDYSTAR188]

Alrighty, cool. What's your Paladin like? I just remembered that a high Strength Paladin can be a rather effective Striker as well.

He was semi-focused on taking feats that let him make Lay on Hands more effective. Since we now have 3 Leaders he asked if he could re-spec his guy and I said yes.... I know he's going to go with Ardent Vow instead of Lay on Hands. I couldn't tell you all of his selected powers but I know he'll probably try to grab ones that do less "hit the bad guy and an ally can gain x hit points", and more "you charge up and hit the bad guy and divine sanction him." He has a Badge of the Berserker and I gave him a Crusaders Weapon that was a sword. There's a lot of undead in the campaign and soon they'll be going to the shadowfell for a large portion of paragon tier.

[tcrudisi]

You wonder if it's too many Leaders.

The Fighter is wondering why he doesn't have more.

Seriously though, that is going to be the most pimped-out Fighter of all time. :smalltongue:

Well, I've had a similar party before. It was two leaders, two defenders, and one striker. In one combat, the striker died in the surprise round. The remaining four took forever and a day to finish up the combat. This was back when the MM1 was the only monster book out - so monsters were big sacks of hp and barely did any damage. Luckily, combats are much quicker now. But even using MM3 variables, I would be worried about their damage output. You'll never kill them without some really good luck on your end combined with terrible decisions on their end ... but that's a poor consolation when the combats take forever because monsters just aren't dying.

How optimized are they? If the Fighter has focused at least some attention on doing damage, I think they'll be fine. Artificer's Magic Weapon + Warlord buffs makes the Fighter do a lot of damage without ever missing. Throw in the Bards buffs and you've got yourself a lean, mean, fighting machine. I think the power is level 7 Rain of Blows which lets him attack three times. Powers like that can really help take down enemies quickly when you've got three leaders buffing you.

But if he's not at least partially focused on doing damage, you've got a problem. I would encourage someone to change to a striker. If they enjoy their characters and don't want to change, then it's up to you to help them out. Monsters surrender or retreat a lot more. Terrain features (like Blood Stone) that help out the PCs. Magic items that drop help them do more damage. If the monster gets down to 1 or 2 hp, it's dead anyway. Throw more minions at the party. Incur more opportunity attacks and disobey marks more often. Rocks fall and monsters die. They find magical rings that, when their powers are combined, allow them to summon Captain Planet. You know, the usual stuff.

[INDYSTAR188]

The Fighter is probably mid-level optimized.

Eladrin Greatspear Fighter
STR 15 AC 21 (he uses Hide says he'll switch to Scale at Paragon)
CON 18
DEX 19
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 10

Melee Basic Attack: +13 ~4(dex), 3(1/2 lvl), 3(weap prof), 2 (enhanc), 1 (expertise)
*quick house rule explanation... I think if they take Melee Training they should be able to use the ability score they wan't to attack with... in this case substitute DEX for STR.
Damage: 1d10+10 ~4(dex), 2(eladrin soldier), 2 (enhanc), 2 (iron armbands of power)
Magic Items: +2 Greatspear of Myrdoon's Shard, +1 Hide Armor of Exploits, +1 Rushing Cleats, Iron Armbands of Power
AW: Cleave, Footwork Lure
E: Passing Attack, Rain of Blows, Come and Get It
D: Tempest Dance, Rain of Steel
U: Pass Forward, Defensive Training


The Paladin like I said above is going for a much more aggressive, damage dealing build now (I said he could respec his powers & feats this one time). Probably focused on charging and using Ardent Vow. I wasn't thinking about how ridiculous the Fighter and Paladin might be with three people to augment, heal, debuff, and position enemies. I will probably use a lot of minions, I already use lots of terrain features and traps, and I'll probably try to be more cognizant of enemy tactics.

[DragonBaneDM]

He was semi-focused on taking feats that let him make Lay on Hands more effective. Since we now have 3 Leaders he asked if he could re-spec his guy and I said yes.... I know he's going to go with Ardent Vow instead of Lay on Hands. I couldn't tell you all of his selected powers but I know he'll probably try to grab ones that do less "hit the bad guy and an ally can gain x hit points", and more "you charge up and hit the bad guy and divine sanction him." He has a Badge of the Berserker and I gave him a Crusaders Weapon that was a sword. There's a lot of undead in the campaign and soon they'll be going to the shadowfell for a large portion of paragon tier.

This shall be helpful for sure. Up until...Level 7 I think it was...a Paladin can outdamage most other things in the game with a big two handed beatstick.

He's your striker, remind him of this and encourage him to be a heavy hitter. Heck, if I were you I'd try to give him some sort of vengeance complex storyline wise.