Trap Sense- It's Even More Useless Than You Thought

[NeoSeraphi]

So I was going through rogue class features because I was trying to level up my Knife Master and something occurred to me that I had never really thought of before. Trap Sense, as written, is completely useless. And no, I don't mean "It gives such a miniscule bonus to a very unlikely scenario that only occurs if you're not doing your job right", though that is very true.

I mean it is, as written, completely useless. Allow me to elaborate. I posit a question to you all: What is the true danger behind a trap? It is not that the trap is powerful, usually, or that it is particularly deadly. No, the true danger of a trap is in its surprise. A trap is (at least, in-character) completely unexpected, it triggers off of something as random as stepping on a plate or opening a door. You're just walking along, minding your own business, when all of a sudden, a boulder drops on your head!

So, what does this mean from a mechanical standpoint? It means the trap gets a surprise round. It attacks a character who does not expect it. The character is, therefore, treated as flat-footed against the attack. And what happens to flat-footed characters? They are denied their Dexterity bonuses and Dodge Bonuses to AC.

"But wait, Seraphi!", you say, hoping to finally defend the poor rogue against my deep-seated hatred of the class and all tropes associated with it, "Rogues get Uncanny Dodge! They get to keep their Dexterity bonus to their AC when flat-footed, and so they also retain their Dodge bonuses!"

You are correct. But, remind me, what level does Uncanny Dodge come for rogues again? Oh! That's right. It's 4th. I can understand needing one class feature to trigger another (Like how bards need to fascinate in order to suggest), but having the one that needs the other come before it? Why does that make sense?

I get Trap Sense at 3rd level. Alright great. I only get half of the bonus it supposedly offers (the +1 bonus on Reflex saves vs traps) until I level up, at which point I get Uncanny Dodge and then I get the whole ability. So...why? Why would they write it like this?

What's worse, in Pathfinder, if you use an Archetype that trades away Uncanny Dodge, you're now left with a class feature that isn't just considered useless, but actually does not function. For instance, if I'm playing a Bandit, who trades Uncanny Dodge for the ability to make full-round actions during the surprise round, I will now never get the dodge bonus to my AC versus attacks made by traps. You know, unless I dip barbarian or something.

So there you go, friends of the Playground. Yet another reason why rogues are so terribly written, even in PF (though PF did a much better job with them than 3.5 did, at least).

[Eonir]

Doesn't specific override general though? If that is true, rogues would still get their dodge bonus to AC, even though they are flat footed.

[Airanath]

In general, unless otherwise stated, yes, specific trumps general.
That said: Trap Sense at least is a class feature, even if a weak one.
I would be complaining more about Trapfinding being called a feature, and people being required to get it somehow to actually find traps... Same thing for ranger tracking. You sir, got a plot device, and was tricked into believing it was a class feature.

[Curmudgeon]

Trap Sense makes a little sense for Barbarians. However, a Rogue can find traps and should never be concerned with what happens when they go blundering into one instead. A class feature which only helps you when you completely disregard a different, more vital class feature, is pretty stupid.

Trap Sense is only worthwhile in that a Rogue can trade it for something actually useful, like Lightbringer Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208).

[hymer]

While pathetic, Trap Sense will help when you are trying to disarm a trap, and it goes off because you rolled sufficiently badly. In such a case, you're aware of the trap, and that it could go off any second, and as such shouldn't have flat feet if things go pear-shaped.

[NeoSeraphi]

Doesn't specific override general though? If that is true, rogues would still get their dodge bonus to AC, even though they are flat footed.

No. Yes, specific trumps general, but it doesn't specifically say "You retain this Dodge bonus even if you would be denied your Dexterity bonus to AC". hymer has it right, Trap Sense, if you do not have Uncanny Dodge, will only trigger if you are aware of the trap and you fail your Disable Device check by enough to accidentally trigger it. In other words, Trap Sense only works if you are playing a rogue who is paranoid to search every door (which is time-consuming. Believe me. I'm playing that rogue now), and also doesn't have enough skill ranks or Int to make every check to Disable on the off-chance that you do find a trap.

Let's recap.

Trap Sense. It gives you a Dodge Bonus to your AC versus traps. In order to get this Dodge bonus, you must have Uncanny Dodge. If you do not, the only way that this bonus applies is if the following are all true:

1) You are actively searching the appropriate 5' square for traps, which takes 1 minute.

2) You succeed an Int-based skill check to find the trap.

3) You fail an Int-based skill check (most likely with the same ranks that you have in Search) to disable the trap.

4) Either you failed the check by 5 or more (again, with the same ranks and ability modifier that you used to find the trap in the first place, so unlikely except at low levels when dice mean everything) or you voluntarily trigger the trap yourself, instead of asking the d12 barbarian to come over and take it for you.


That, ladies and gentlemen of the Playground, is the glorious uselessness that is the Trap Sense feature, which occupies 1/3rd of the rogue class.

[navar100]

There's your proof crime doesn't pay! ~Paladin in need of an "operation".
:smallsmile:

[Jeraa]

Your also ignoring the other half of trapsense - the bonus to reflex saves. That always applies against traps.

Negating the dodge bonus does not make trapsense useless, it just lowers its usefullness. You'll still have the bonus on reflex saves.

[Curmudgeon]

Negating the dodge bonus does not make trap finding sense useless, it just lowers its usefullness. You'll still have the bonus on reflex saves.
I fixed that for you. Trapfinding is never a useless ability.

[Lateral]

I fixed that for you. Trapfinding is never a useless ability.

...Unless your DM never uses traps at all.

[Curmudgeon]

...Unless your DM never uses traps at all.
If your DM is like that you've stumbled upon an excellent opportunity: you can start making traps. You might spend some down time crafting portable traps (like bear traps and trip wires), carry them with you, and set up automated defenses to guard your camp or exit path. But because trap crafting is very slow, the easiest approach is simply to get your party spellcaster to cast spell traps. If none of the DM's creatures know how to find or disarm them your defenses are excellent compared to the normal situation where you can expect some traps to be disabled or bypassed. If you're the only one with the skills to find and bypass traps you can come and go through the trapped areas as you please, and you can even create a 1-person ambush by leading enemies into trapped areas. Your enemies might dispel those traps, but they won't be able to make use of them (traveling freely but keeping the trap active) the way you can.

As I said, trapfinding is never a useless ability. :smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

Your also ignoring the other half of trapsense - the bonus to reflex saves. That always applies against traps.

Negating the dodge bonus does not make trapsense useless, it just lowers its usefullness. You'll still have the bonus on reflex saves.

I have never seen that bonus applied. Ever. The only spell-based traps I have ever seen triggered at a table were a trap of inflict serious wounds (which was Will), and a trap of black tentacles (No save). If Trap Sense granted a static +1 scaling bonus to saves against traps, that would be better, but just Reflex, when it's already a rogue's best save? Not exactly a shiny ability.

[Amphetryon]

I have never seen that bonus applied. Ever. The only spell-based traps I have ever seen triggered at a table were a trap of inflict serious wounds (which was Will), and a trap of black tentacles (No save). If Trap Sense granted a static +1 scaling bonus to saves against traps, that would be better, but just Reflex, when it's already a rogue's best save? Not exactly a shiny ability.

Then you're arguing it's useless based upon the specifics of what happens at your particular table(s). While it may be true, that's not proof of how it works or doesn't work in other games.

[NeoSeraphi]

Then you're arguing it's useless based upon the specifics of what happens at your particular table(s). While it may be true, that's not proof of how it works or doesn't work in other games.

Fair enough. But don't you agree that, being both a Dexterity-based class and a high Reflex save to begin with, that the bonus granted to Reflex saves is pretty redundant?

[Jeraa]

Fair enough. But don't you agree that, being both a Dexterity-based class and a high Reflex save to begin with, that the bonus granted to Reflex saves is pretty redundant?

No. Your saving throw can't be too high - more is always better. For every +1 you get from trap sense, you're 5% more likely to succeed on the save. It makes the rogue more likely to succeed on the reflex save then any other class with a good reflex save. Besides that, the barbarian also has trap sense, and doesn't have a good reflex save.

[Curmudgeon]

For every +1 you get from trap sense, you're 5% more likely to succeed on the save.
You should check your math. The percentage of improvement isn't ever going to be 5% by adding +1 to your save, and depends on how often you already save.

Now save on | % improvement from +1

0% (You can't actually succeed on a 1.)
0% (If you already succeeded on a 2 there's no improvement.)
1/18 = 5.56%
1/17 = 5.88%
1/16 = 6.25%
1/15 = 6.67%
1/14 = 7.14%
1/13 = 7.69%
1/12 = 8.33%
1/11 = 9.09%
1/10 = 10%
1/9 = 11.11%
1/8 = 12.5%
1/7 = 14.29%
1/6 = 16.67%
1/5 = 20%
1/4 = 25%
1/3 = 33.33%
1/2= 50%
0% (if you still only save on a 20) or 100% (if +1 lets you save on a 19)

[Salanmander]

You should check your math. The percentage of improvement isn't ever going to be 5% by adding +1 to your save, and depends on how often you already save.

Now save on | % improvement from +1

0% (You can't actually succeed on a 1.)
0% (If you already succeeded on a 2 there's no improvement.)
1/18 = 5.56%
1/17 = 5.88%
1/16 = 6.25%
1/15 = 6.67%
1/14 = 7.14%
1/13 = 7.69%
1/12 = 8.33%
1/11 = 9.09%
1/10 = 10%
1/9 = 11.11%
1/8 = 12.5%
1/7 = 14.29%
1/6 = 16.67%
1/5 = 20%
1/4 = 25%
1/3 = 33.33%
1/2= 50%
0% (if you still only save on a 20) or 100% (if +1 lets you save on a 19)


What we've run into here is the difference between "percent change" an "difference in percentage points". What Jeraa was talking about was percentage points, and while not the most pedantic way of talking, it was valid colloquial english.

(It's also easier to fit in your head than a multitude of DC-dependent scenarios. That said, the percent change interpretation is the more useful one when actually crunching numbers about how much something helps you.)

[BerronBrightaxe]

A [insert class] gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rogue#Trap_Sense)

I would agrue:
When a rogue is flatfooted, (s)he doesn't get the dodge bonus (thus hasn't found/isn't aware of the trap
When a char can't be flatfooted (fg. Uncanny Dodge), (s)he gets the dodge bonus to AC
When a rogue is aware of the trap (fg. found it with search), (s)he gets the dodge bonus to AC.
On a reflex save, the char always gets the (untyped) bonus, whether (s)he is flatfooted or not.

all IMHO of course

[NeoSeraphi]

A [insert class] gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rogue#Trap_Sense)

I would agrue:
When a rogue is flatfooted, (s)he doesn't get the dodge bonus (thus hasn't found/isn't aware of the trap
When a char can't be flatfooted (fg. Uncanny Dodge), (s)he gets the dodge bonus to AC
When a rogue is aware of the trap (fg. found it with search), (s)he gets the dodge bonus to AC.
On a reflex save, the char always gets the (untyped) bonus, whether (s)he is flatfooted or not.

all IMHO of course

Yes. I agree with all of these statements. I just believe that Trap Sense should apply in all situations, rather than just ones when you are aware of the trap. Especially for a barbarian, since a barbarian will never be aware of the trap and thus would never get the Dodge bonus if he traded away Uncanny Dodge.

[Necroticplague]

Yes. I agree with all of these statements. I just believe that Trap Sense should apply in all situations, rather than just ones when you are aware of the trap. Especially for a barbarian, since a barbarian will never be aware of the trap and thus would never get the Dodge bonus if he traded away Uncanny Dodge.

Unless he has an ACF that lets him detect traps using survival (and then smash them).

[NeoSeraphi]

Unless he has an ACF that lets him detect traps using survival (and then smash them).

You mean the one from Dungeonscape? Doesn't that trade away Uncanny Dodge?

[Necroticplague]

You mean the one from Dungeonscape? Doesn't that trade away Uncanny Dodge?

Nope, it trades away trap sense (sorry, I was afb when I made my previous post and now realize how foolish it was, my bad).

[BerronBrightaxe]

Yes. I agree with all of these statements. I just believe that Trap Sense should apply in all situations, rather than just ones when you are aware of the trap. Especially for a barbarian, since a barbarian will never be aware of the trap and thus would never get the Dodge bonus if he traded away Uncanny Dodge.

In my view there is a difference between not being able to find a trap and knowing the trap is there and knowing what triggers it.

Unaware of the trap means you are flat-footed. This is the case when a rogue doesn't find the trap or anybody else who doesn't know the trap is there.

Only when a char. knows the trap is there and knows what activates it, isn't considered flatfooted in my book (though (s)he still can get hit).
Only knowing a trap is in a certain 5ft square isn't enough, because you can't anticipate the exact moment the trap springs (thus are 'surprised').

[Boci]

When a char can't be flatfooted (fg. Uncanny Dodge), (s)he gets the dodge bonus to AC

Common mistake. Only the scout's uncanny dodge means you cannot be caught flatfooted. Rogue's one just allows you to keep your dex bonus.

[nedz]

Some good uses for Trapsense

Death's Ruin (CC, p 51): Lose trapsense. Can use sneak-attack on undead, at one half normal.

Halfling Rogue Substitution Levels (RW, p 160)
3rd level: Thief's Luck (can reroll reflex saves), lose trapsense

Penetrating Strike (DS, p 13): Lose trap sense. Whenever you sneak attack something normally immune to sneak attack damage, do half your normal dice of sneak attack damage.

Rilkan Rogue Substitution Levels (MoI, p 47)
3rd level: Bardic Knowledge, Bonus feat, lose trap sense

Spell Sense (CM, p 35): Lose trapsense. Gain AC bonus vs spells.

Golden Hands of Vergadain Substitution Levels (CV, web)
3rd level: gain Track, lose trap sense. Gain bonuses to tracking in place of trap sense

[Bharg]

Uh, since when do traps "attack" you? Sounds wrong.

[NeoSeraphi]

Uh, since when do traps "attack" you? Sounds wrong.

A common example of a trap attacking you is a door trap with a loaded crossbow on the other side. You open the door, trigger the trap, and the crossbow fires, putting 1d10 points of piercing damage right through your chest.

Similarly, a trap of acid arrow would attack you, with a ranged touch attack and no saving throw. Similar magic traps exist.

[Bharg]

Someone on a PF forum asked a similar question. I think this answer by the infamous Quantum Steve sounds quite reasonable. It's not official, though, and i was too lazy to read the whole thread.


You don't lose your Dex bonus to AC whenever you're surprised, only during the surprise round of combat. Traps don't 'initiate combat' the way a normal encounter would. They go off, resolve, then it's business as usual. There's no initiative roll to see if you go before the trap.

So, there's really no reason that anyone would be denied their Dex bonus against a trap under normal circumstances.

If a trap were to go off during the surprise round of a combat, before a character had a chance to act, then the character would, technically, be flat-footed. This is a weird corner case, though, not the norm.

[NeoSeraphi]

Someone on a PF forum asked a similar question. I think this answer by the infamous Quantum Steve sounds quite reasonable. It's not official, though, and i was too lazy to read the whole thread.

That's not entirely correct. You don't lose your Dexterity bonus when you're surprised, but you always lose it against an invisible attacker. If you don't perceive a trap, how is it any different than an invisible attacker?

[Bharg]

So now traps don't get a surprise round, but are invisible combatants instead?

I agree with Steve.