Creating a very specific evil cleric... or trying!

[Kymriana]

I need a little help and I figured this was the best place to go, after years of lurking... (I played almost 8 years of GURPS and then stopped gaming for about 4 years after moving to another state. Now I have a group that wants to play but they are using 3.5 DnD, so I'm scrambling to learn. ACK!)

I'm aware there are 'Clericzilla' builds, or was it... CoDzilla? I've seen the term thrown around... but I dislike a lot of what they require to make. Nor do I intend to play human or dwarf and I prefer the Lawful Evil alignment. Our GM let us have a lot of freedom in picking races/creatures to be and I took full advantage of that fact. That said, I really REALLY need some suggestions/help in getting the character set up to be playable. While I'm sure some of my choices are not 'optimal' I'm playing to enjoy myself, per say, and not break the game or make the GM cry. (Though making the GM cry would make me giggle. A lot. But I'm prone to evil alignments in more than just my character sheets...)

So, explanation and lead up aside... let me explain what I have so far and what I'm willing to flip around if people see that I'm going far afield from anything usable.

GM allowed us to create at Level 10 using a point spread of all base stats at 10 and adding 30pts to those stats as we saw fit, no stat allowed to go above 20 before racial modifiers. (You were also allowed to roll for stats but since I'm a GURPS baby I'm very violently opposed to rolling randomly for my characters... I learned gaming with the ability to craft MY character... not 'a' character. I'm very grateful the GM was happy doing either or.)

I made the following:
Race: Half-Dragon(Level Modifier of +3 making my class at level 7)
Base Race: Elf
Dragon Race: Black
Class: Cleric
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Deity: Tiamat

I've toyed with the stats, but I'm not sure still what to focus on outside of WIS to allocate the points. INT and CHA appear to be important and my Half-Dragon bonuses already boost STR by +8.

This also gives me only 3 Feats to go with to start, right? (Not sure, I think I'm reading the books right...)

The party has a Druid that I am hinting might want to up her healing a bit, so I wanted to be more of a healer-on-the-side and focus more on actually getting to do more on the combat end. (I had eyed the flail and shield combo, but I'm reading stuff about Divine Weapons that you can summon? Not sure. Thus a large part of my confusion and my coming here to ask for help with this massive wall-o-text post.)

Thank you for any help you can give as I continue to search/read/get-confused. ;)

[SowZ]

If it were me, I would pump Wis to 20 and Str to 18 and Dex to 14 and then Cha to 14 and 14 in Con. Int really is a dump for a Cleric. Any problem that is best solved with skills you can do better with spells or sizeshifting or a party member designed for that. Even with 18 Int you wont do better than a 12 Int rogue on skills, worse, so trying won't net much. Unless you want a smart character for rp reasons. In which case 12 Int and 20 Wis and 14 Cha justifies a very smart person for sure. In 3.5, specializing is fun times. High Strength with buffing and Half Dragon will allow you to be a great melee combatant.

Decent feat options? Augment Healing not bad if you want to focus on healing and a lot of healing centric abilities are rubbish and this one isn't, Improved Initiative is solid as always since it makes you go first in combat for often, Extend Spell is metagamic and doubles the lengths of your buffs which is super useful unless your DM is the type to just let buffs last for the fight you put them on and end afterwards.

[Acanous]

As an Elf at level 7, you do get only 3 feats (1, 3, 6).
You could get another by being Human, if it's important to you.

On the bright side, you get two domains, which are just as good as if not better than feats. Popular choices of domain are Luck, Travel, and Planning.

You can opt to be a Cloistered Cleric for a bonus domain and more skills, but you will lose base attack and armor proficiency.

With 3 levels lost due to Half-Dragon ness, you're going to lag behind considerably. Ask your DM if he's allowing LA Buyoff. You'd wind up level 8 instead of 7 if he is, and you'd hit 20 roughly at the same time as your party.

That all being said, there's three traditional ways to optimize an evil cleric:
1: Divine Metamagic Persist Spell.
You buff. You buff all day long. Pick good buffs and go to town in melee, being a huge creature with zany combat bonuses, or buff your allies to the same.

2: Necromancer. There's some sweet feats in Libris Mortis that add cool things to your undead, like extra HP, elemental damage, explosions when they're destroyed... Evil clerics do necromancy better than anyone else (Even better than Dread Necromancers, who were built for it) and while it's a bit resource intensive, you can get a lot out of having a zombie dragon.

3: Battlefield Control.
Clerics don't do this as well as wizards, but by picking the right domains, you can get some nice AoE control spells added to your list, like Hypnotic Pattern or Entangle. Clerics get some of their own control spells to boot, and if you want to be air walking above the battlefield calling down Flame Strikes on Entangled opponents, this is the way to go.

So pick what you want your cleric to do, and we'll go from there.

[Invader]

It really depends on what kind of cleric you want to play. You could very well play a melee cleric and go str 28, con 22, wis 14, dex 12, cha 14, int 14 with racial modifiers and use you spells primarily for buffing and healing and be very effective in melee.

[Kymriana]

Acanous, those are some really interesting suggestions and I really like the Necromancer as Cleric idea a lot, esp since my Inflict spells would heal my undead while they wouldn't be able to the party.

If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong because I AM sort of flying by the seat of my pants here, am I not limited to the Domains of my Deity? In Tiamat's case those are Destruction, Dragon, Evil, Greed, Law, Trickery? (I saw Hatred, Scaly-kind and Tyranny in brackets so I'm not sure what the means or if they apply.)

Would a Necro-Cleric be a bit squishy personally, though? As they would rely on their undead?

Thank you all for helping, btw. I really REALLY appreciate it.

[SowZ]

If you want to go metamagic, persist spell and such especially if you want to be buff centric, there are ways to mitigate metamagic. Which, for a cleric, you probably don't want to do with multiclassing. Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic are feats you can look up which make metamagic easier.

Are you familiar with these concepts, yet? Like metamagic and such? Also, do you want to be a little optimized, all your abilities and feats and scores improve your functionality, not really optimized, just pick what sounds fun and cool and not non-functional, really optimized, where you have actual combos and tricks and complex builds, or super optimized, in which case you will probably drop half-dragon and maybe not work as well with your concept/group, depending?

A necro-cleric isn't necessarily squishier than any other cleric. You will still have the same spells and armor and weapons as any other evil non necromancer cleric. You lose some HD and so HP by being a half dragon, but the improved con score and natural armor will make up for it in the quishy department. Especially if you wear plate and focus on buffing, too. Necromancy is super fun and won't inhibit your own combat abilities. If you go that route, Cha becomes kind of more important. Still, Dex doesn't need to be higher than 14, (and can be lower, really,) Int is unimportant and Con doesn't need to be too high. Wisdom is super important and then Strength is maybe important and if you go necro Cha is pretty important otherwise only a little bit.

There are a handful of feats worth looking into to focus in necromancy if you go that route.

[Kymriana]

If you want to go metamagic, persist spell and such especially if you want to be buff centric, there are ways to mitigate metamagic. Which, for a cleric, you probably don't want to do with multiclassing. Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic are feats you can look up which make metamagic easier.

Are you familiar with these concepts, yet? Like metamagic and such? Also, do you want to be a little optimized, all your abilities and feats and scores improve your functionality, not really optimized, just pick what sounds fun and cool and not non-functional, really optimized, where you have actual combos and tricks and complex builds, or super optimized, in which case you will probably drop half-dragon and maybe not work as well with your concept/group, depending?

I have a basic understanding of metamagic, but I need to do more reading on it. I had hoped to today, but we got pulled in for OT at work since E3 is coming up. (SIGH)

I hope to be optimized as best as I can be while maintaining the unique set-up race-wise. IE: Black Dragon Half-Dragon Cleric. I'm a very character-focused person and value a good solid RP-character that is good at what they do. Stats are important but not so much that I'd sacrifice the basic concept of race/identity that appealed to me in the first place. ^^'' (I'm overly stubborn once I latch onto a character idea. :( )

[Airanath]

You are only squishy if they can get to you, and a wall of dead stand between you and them.

That said: Minion mastering is one of those things in Dungeons and Dragons that require a lot of effort and expertise. What you want for undead are those creatures with special abilities as opposed to ultra buffed hp. It has low Hp? Sad, but hey, it explodes upon death! And heals any other undead around while doing it! So you might want to skim around the monster manuals to look up nice and usefull undead. Secondly: Being a half dragon cleric necromancer is going to hurt you quite a bit. you won't be able to control as many undead, nor as powerfull undead. Third and more important point: While you can use inflict spells to heal the undead, you don't want to. Its cheaper to animate new undead (you will, after all, be producing corpses quite regularly, you could also obtain a portable role that affects everything inside with gentle repose, this way you can preserve corpses whenever you got spares, just in case they become a limited resource) than to heal them, undead are disposable (most are mindless too) minions, and if you can make them hurt people by exploding on death, just make sure you got enough undead to kill everyone, and collect the corpses after, save your spells for better stuff (Increasing the number of minions, making your minions more dangerous and stuff like that, the death of the minions is expected, which is why you use mindless animated bodies, and not thinking people, so you are using expendables that nobody will miss).
Edit: If you want draconish, check if your DM will let you play a corrupt Dragonborn, gives enough of a draconic feel without an LA.

[Invader]

I agree with Airanath. If you plan on summoning/creating/rebuking lots of undead, be prepared for a lot of paperwork. To be really efficient you'll need all the relevant stats of the undead you'll be controlling and there are a lot if different types you can control. It can be a lot of fun but it can also be a lot if work.

[SowZ]

I have a basic understanding of metamagic, but I need to do more reading on it. I had hoped to today, but we got pulled in for OT at work since E3 is coming up. (SIGH)

I hope to be optimized as best as I can be while maintaining the unique set-up race-wise. IE: Black Dragon Half-Dragon Cleric. I'm a very character-focused person and value a good solid RP-character that is good at what they do. Stats are important but not so much that I'd sacrifice the basic concept of race/identity that appealed to me in the first place. ^^'' (I'm overly stubborn once I latch onto a character idea. :( )

Oh, yeah, half-dragons are fun. I DMed a game once where the whole party were half-dragons. That is cool. I forgot you were an elf, btw, and you have some options there. Like, there are many elf variants. Alternatively, you could be a lesser Assimar elf which means don't get the benefits of an elf but get a bonus to Wisdom and Charisma and a handful of magical abilities and still look like/have the genes of an elf without any ability penalties or LA. This wouldn't inhibit you being a half black dragon, either.

But it is kind of some fun character history, I think, since Assimar means one of you grandparents back when was a being of 'pure' good but your goodness is overpowered by the evil side of you, encouraged by the dragon side, so sometimes the good in you would probably be repelled but you still have the choice to do evil. That is totally your choice, though, and just something I am throwing out since it would be the best way for you to mechanically be an elf, IMO, if you are optimizing.

If you are classic elf, there are wild and wood and high and grey elves and such. The bonus to dex from most of them means you would only want to drop two points into dex at generation, tops, since you won't benefit from more than 14 Dex anyway if you are wearing plate armor.

[Kymriana]

So what I'm seeing is the choice of being a half-dragon will hurt me a bit and that going necro-focus will be a LOT of paperwork.

Oyi. Aaaah, why do I always find a way to make life difficult?

The elf-side of the blood was more an aesthetic choice, as I didn't want human... (I know, points-wise it's the 'optimal' choice but I just find it dull.) I don't mind switching that up a bit, provided it's a long-lived race I would be moving it to. I'll do some reading on Assimar if that's what you suggest. ^^

I'm not sure I want to over-load the group with a ton of paper-work/complexity with the undead. Several of the players are as new as I am or newer. (One girl has only played once and was not treated well as a newbie by the people she played with. So she's kind of nervous about the whole thing.) While *I* find it pleasing from a player-standpoint, it might be a bit much for them.

Perhaps I had better go with the buff-tastic idea more... if it's easier for the group as a whole.... even though I REALLY like the undead minions idea. Ah me... :\ (I don't mean to sound wishy-washy, I just want the best fit for everyone in the game.)

Side note: I'm not the only half-dragon in the group. A coworker made a half-dragon/kobold rogue. It's pretty hilarious and very weird. From what I can see we have a monk, druid, bard, rogue, some kind of archer(I can't remember the race, he was some kind of descendant of dwarves and earth elementals? Eh...) and some kind of soulsworn? Swordsworn? I forget, it was kind of complicated. And we have a mix of alignments, too.

[Waker]

A potential alternative to your choice of Half Dragon might be taking the Dragonborn template (though devoted to Tiamat instead of Bahamut), taking the Heart aspect to get a breath attack and taking levels of the Swiftwing PrC in Dragon Magic. The PrC loses two caster levels but gives Energy Resistance (later Immunity), Wings, the Dragon Domain, a Healing Breath ability (expend Turn/Rebuke Undead for a cone of positive energy) and the Draconic Senses feat. You could also take the Divine Magician acf (CMag) to lose a Domain and gain access to wizard spells from Abjuration, Divination or Necromancy schools, which helps emulate Sorcerer a bit. Spontaneous Domain Casting (PHBII) gives you a bit of flexibility if you choose the right domain. If you are afraid of losing healing, you could take the Touch of Healing feat (CCha) so you can heal at will, though not a ton.

Going with that build would net you more HD/BAB/Saves/Skills, an extra level of spellcasting, a character who can fly, has an acid breathe attack, resists acid, an expanded spell list and can heal at will.

and some kind of soulsworn? Swordsworn? I forget, it was kind of complicated. And we have a mix of alignments, too.
Soulborn? From Magic of Incarnum?

[Kymriana]

Soulborn? From Magic of Incarnum?

That might have been it! I know the GM gave him a particular book to go through because he had talked about Psionics or something from another game/system. We had a 'character creation' get together yesterday which had to be cut short because two of us were called in to work.

The Dragonborn suggestion is something I looked into, but it just seems really complicated. As I said above, I want everyone to enjoy it and not get overly confused or intimidated by overly complex things. Yet. >:}

Sticking with Cleric and making the Half-Dragon nature work is my prime goal here, even if it isn't the most optimal set of numbers, the group dynamic and enjoyment of the players will more than make up for that to me. ^^'

[Waker]

You might be interested in taking the Dragon Breath feat from Races of the Dragon which lets you use your Breath attack every 1d4 rounds. Doing this would then open you up to taking some of the metabreath and breath channeling feats found in Races of the Dragon and Draconomicon. These alternate breath options could greatly enhance your battlefield control abilities. Entangling Exhalation is an excellent feat for this. Can't really make any suggestions for PrCs since the template makes most dragon-related PrCs unavailable or not worth it.

[Kymriana]

Okay, after chatting with the other party member at work(half-dragon kobold rogue) I think I really would like to try the Necro-Cleric. The DMM build is really impressive, but it would really need me to abuse the Nightsticks option to make it work from what I understand... esp given my desire to play a half-dragon. (Apparently the girl who was nervous about gaming spent until over 11pm yesterday working with the GM directly and STILL isn't done... so I'm guessing she's tricking out her Bard. My pity has vanished and she can deal with undead.)

That said, it appears my main stats will be WIS, INT and CHA? I'll start reading up on the Libris Mortis.

[SowZ]

Okay, after chatting with the other party member at work(half-dragon kobold rogue) I think I really would like to try the Necro-Cleric. The DMM build is really impressive, but it would really need me to abuse the Nightsticks option to make it work from what I understand... esp given my desire to play a half-dragon. (Apparently the girl who was nervous about gaming spent until over 11pm yesterday working with the GM directly and STILL isn't done... so I'm guessing she's tricking out her Bard. My pity has vanished and she can deal with undead.)

That said, it appears my main stats will be WIS, INT and CHA? I'll start reading up on the Libris Mortis.

Well, you will want to look into LESSER assimar, it has no LA and is just about as powerful. Also, it is just a bloodline thing that overrules your base race, so you can still BE an elf in every sense except for your abilities and you will look a little holier. Why are you upping int, again? Roleplaying reasons?

[Kymriana]

Ah, maybe INT isn't important then? I'm trying to figure out necromancy aspects and my brain still equates that with magic=int and not wis. Sorry. ^^'

Looking holier? Haha, since I want her to look way way more draconish, I'm not concerned with looking elf/human/etc. It's the 'avoiding dull human and having longer lifespan' that appeals to me. Elf is just the typical fallback.

Doing some reading in between work:
It's best if I drop Tiamat as a deity of choice to allow me to pick different undeath-focused domains from what I see. No need to focus on a deity at all, actually, which is nice...
CHA is going to become very important next to WIS.

I found this and was reading up. However, the comments below it say it is wrong or out of date... Is this something I can actually use?
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733.0

[Waker]

Int isn't required for cleric spellcasting, though you might not want to dump it too much to preserve skill points.
As for your deity, you could go for Falazure. He's the dragon deity of death, has many necromancer followers.

[Kymriana]

Okay, my GM got back to me and gives me a big thumbs up on making a necro-Cleric. So that is a full go.

My ideal is to craft a necro that doesn't have to have a hoard of undead(and thus over complicate everything) around all the time. The 'idea' is to streamline her, but reading up I'm not sure how viable that is. (It would also be by the grace of the GM who would have to provide the useful undead for me to have.) So...

Cleric - Lawful Evil - Necromancer
Race: Half-Dragon - Black Dragon (+8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 Int)
Base Race: Lesser Assimir(+2 Wis, +2 Cha) GM said no to this race, as he does not have the book. :\
Starting Level: 10 (I will be Level 7 due to +3 from Half-Dragon)
All stats are base 10 and can be raised no higher than 20 using 30 points given by GM. (This does not include the bonuses from racials.)
~ +4 Natural Armor from Half-Dragon
~ +2 to Spot and Listen Checks
~ 60ft Line of Acid Breath from Half-Dragon(Black Dragon)
~Immunity to Acid, Sleep, Paralysis Effects
~Darkvision 60ft
~Low-light Vision


I will have 3 Feats to start with.

Reading up in the Revised Necromancer Handbook thread(s) I can remain full Cleric up to this point without any problems.

Should I focus on the Corpsecrafter chain of Feats? Are there particular Skills that I 'need' to focus on/get?

[Waker]

I should have asked before, is your DM allowing LA buyoff? Because if so, you could have an extra level of cleric to throw on.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

So you are going with the necromancer cleric build but you do not want to focus on crafting an army? That route would limit the efficacy of the Corpsecrafter chain feats. Still, the Corpsecrafter feat itself would still provide a bonus, since 2hp per HD is nice for a thug. If you do decide to grab any other feats in the chain, I would suggest Bolster Resistance and also Necromantic Presence to prevent anyone from turning/rebuking your creatures. Destruction Retribution seems fun, but much of it's value comes from healing hordes of undead in addition to dealing damage to the enemy, the damage by itself isn't that impressive.
You might like the Master of Shrouds PrC, but only consider it if the DM is allowing the LA buyoff. Losing that level would be too much of a shot in the foot.

[Randomguy]

A nice, but not necessary, feat in Races of the dragon (or possibly dragon magic) lets you use your breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds instead of 1/day, which is a nice bonus.

Check out the Summon Undead line of spells, in Spell Compedium and Heroes of Horror. They're pretty handy. Especially since you can summon a wight and have it kill someone, thus spawning another wight. The first wight disappears when the spell ends, but the second doesn't. You can now begin a wightpocalypse.

Ask your friendly neighbourhood bard if she's taking dragonfire inspiration, which I think affects undead but I'm not sure (is there a way to make it affect undead, if it doesn't?). Optimised dragonfire inspiration + loads and loads of minions = very, very much win.

Isn't there some sort of undead battery feat that lets you drain your created undead minions to help metamagic your spells? Would persist spell be viable with that?

Check out a few regular cleric handbooks as well as necromancer handbooks, for tips on spells to make yourself a melee powerhouse.

[Kymriana]

Well, I don't MIND having a hoard of buffed up minions, I just don't want to cause too much of a headache for everyone having to deal with the paperwork and map positions. ;)

GM said no to the Lesser Assimar, as he does not own the book it is from and said he is limiting races to books he has on-hand for references. Soooo... :( Piffle.

[SowZ]

Well, I don't MIND having a hoard of buffed up minions, I just don't want to cause too much of a headache for everyone having to deal with the paperwork and map positions. ;)

GM said no to the Lesser Assimar, as he does not own the book it is from and said he is limiting races to books he has on-hand for references. Soooo... :( Piffle.

It is in the SRD, the assimar anyways, so is legally online, (lesser assimar is just a variant on it,) but that is fine if he says no to it. If you are an elf, you get a +2 Dex and -2 Con, but you can counteract that with being a Dragonborn if you want, (which will level out your stats,) Or you can just bump dex up two points at call it good, putting leftover points after Wis and Cha into con. Leftovers in Strength and maybe even a couple in Int if you want to. Just max Wisdom and try to make everything even, odd stats are pretty useless.

[Gavinfoxx]

He doesn't have the book that Lesser Planetouched in, he means?

Can you list the books the DM has? That will help significantly.

[SowZ]

He doesn't have the book that Lesser Planetouched in, he means?

Can you list the books the DM has? That will help significantly.

Lesser Planetouched is just a feature you apply to normal planetouched. It doesn't alter the plantouched except by taking some things away. But yeah, still reasonable that he doesn't want to use it. Second list of books as helpful.

[Kymriana]

Way I see it is... I have 30 points to spread between my stats.

STR: 10
CON: 10
DEX: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

No, just using the Half-Dragon this bumps it

STR: 18
CON: 12
DEX: 10
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

And I still have 30 pts to spend. It's just deciding what is most important down to least... like I don't need to do diddly squat to STR, really. And if I go Elf, the Con will even back out to 10 with its -2. IF I do Elf.

EDIT: I have asked him for his list. He does have a lot of books... XD I've also linked him this thread so he can monitor it and let me know yes or no to suggestions. ^^

Thanks again, btw, for the people helping me get this set up. I'm horrible at picking the right Feats/Skills.... probably because I'm just used to the 'do whatever and make it work' from my old GURPS group.

[Randomguy]

What books does the DM have on hand?

You're O.K. with anything long lived, right?

Spellscales are decent, but they don't live that long (around 140 years). (still about twice as long as humans though). Half elves would also live this long.
Warforged live practically for ever (I think), plus you're a dragon robot, but it's setting specific and you might not like the fluff.
The half-human elf (the half elf variety in the DMG) is also decent.
If you're willing to take the LA, you could take normal Asimar. And if you want you could find another template to make yourself more draconic without taking the LA of the half dragon template.
And of course, it's hard to go wrong with human. See if you can talk to your DM about half dragon increasing your lifespan.

[Kymriana]

Well, 'anything long-lived that is aesthetically pleasing.

I'm female. Even if she looks as dragon-ish as possible, I still want her to be attractive.... as possible given the whole dragon-thing. XD (I think dragons are pretty, fyi. I'm just say no... trolls or dwarves and so on... ahem.)

>_>

In the end, I might just fall back to human... :\ I won't hurt any of my Stats and pick up the Feat. I'm just a little 'meh' about it. Still, as long as he lets me look as Dragon-ish as possible.... I'll survive.

From GM: Oy vey. OK...Libris Mortis, Magic of the Incarnum, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Races of the Dragon, Savage Species, Fiend Folio, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Rogue/Bard softback (Song and Silence), Fighter/Monk softback, Ranger/Druid softback (can't remember the names) Draconomicon...that's all I can remember off the top of my head.

[Waker]

With the books you have listed there are a handful of races that have attractive females and long lives.
Elves/Half Elves, Gnomes, Halflings, Killoren, Spellscale. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages, but none of them directly impact your desire to be a necromancer. Though a Necromancer Half Black Dragon Killoren would be a little odd.

[Kymriana]

For the purposes of getting past the most basic component of this... Lets just go back to my original setup.

Half-Dragon/Elf(maybe Grey Elf? Meh...)

So. Lets now look at Stats/Feats/Skills. In the end, there's enough in Elf that I would rather take that than fall back on human. :3

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not use Draconic creature from Races of the Dragon (and I think Draconomicon) rather than Half-Dragon?

Half-Dragon is REALLY REALLY BAD. I mean really. It actively makes your character worse than not taking Half-Dragon at all. It might not make the character unplayable... but it will definitely make your character worse.

Here's the Tier system for templates, if you are curious:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0

[Kymriana]

Why not use Draconic creature from Races of the Dragon (and I think Draconomicon) rather than Half-Dragon?

Half-Dragon is REALLY REALLY BAD. I mean really. It actively makes your character worse than not taking Half-Dragon at all. It might not make the character unplayable... but it will definitely make your character worse.

Here's the Tier system for templates, if you are curious:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0

Well... see... Then what would you suggest? I don't have the Races of the Dragon book on me, it's the GM's book. I think I saw something that was way more dragon-looking, which I can swing, I suppose... (Dragonborn? Not sure...) I want to look as dragon-like as possible, honestly. While not being an actual dragon, which is... well... not possible. XD

It's the flavour of the character I don't want to lose.

[Waker]

Well, if you have 30 points to spend on stats and are going with Half Dragon/Elf Cleric, here is what I would do.
Str-10 +8 (Dragon)
Con-16 +0 (Dragon, Elf)
Dex-10 +3 (Elf, lvl 4)
Int-14 +2 (Dragon)
Wis-18
Cha-14 +2 (Dragon)

After the racials are applied
Str 18
Con 16
Dex 13
Int 16
Wis 18
Cha 16

The 4th level stat increase could have gone anywhere, I just threw it there in case there was a feat that requires 13 dex that you wanted. It would probably best be put in Con otherwise.

[Thomasinx]

Way I see it is... I have 30 points to spread between my stats.

STR: 10
CON: 10
DEX: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

No, just using the Half-Dragon this bumps it

STR: 18
CON: 12
DEX: 10
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

And I still have 30 pts to spend. It's just deciding what is most important down to least... like I don't need to do diddly squat to STR, really. And if I go Elf, the Con will even back out to 10 with its -2. IF I do Elf.

EDIT: I have asked him for his list. He does have a lot of books... XD I've also linked him this thread so he can monitor it and let me know yes or no to suggestions. ^^

Thanks again, btw, for the people helping me get this set up. I'm horrible at picking the right Feats/Skills.... probably because I'm just used to the 'do whatever and make it work' from my old GURPS group.

Just to point things out, you *must* put points in wisdom. At the bare minimum, get it to 18. You cannot cast spells at level X if you dont have 10+X points in wisdom. (ie for level 9 spells you'll need 19 wis). Also, wisdom determines how hard it is to save against your spells (and in some cases how hard the spell hits). Plus, wisdom gives you more spells per day (which is very important).

Get wisdom as high as possible.

By the way, you should make sure that you're doing the point-buy correctly. Most point-buys i've seen makes the bump from 17-18 significantly more expensive than the bump from 11-12. If I remember correctly, the cost of bumping up a stat in points is the current value of the stat minus ten, minimum 1. (so 17-18 costs 7 points, 18-19 costs 8 points, etc...)

[Gavinfoxx]

If Races of the Dragon is a viable book (even if you don't have it just now), AND you want to be 'dragon-looking' as your thing, than 'Dragonborn' or 'Draconic' (with level adjustment buyoff, see the variant rule in the SRD, also found in dead tree form in the book Unearthed Arcana) are your ideal options.

I believe these things are found online, hold on....

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b
Dragonborn!

[Randomguy]

Personally I'd put a little less on Int and a little more on Str, Cha and Wis. There aren't that many skills that clerics need.

For your skills, Concentration is a must have. Other good skills are Knoweledge (religion) and spellcraft, apparently (you could be the only one in your group that puts points in it, so that would make it even more important, since you'd be the only one that could tell what enemy casters were casting). If you take the dragon domain, then butting a few ranks in intimidate or bluff might be a good thematic choice, but with both a bard and rogue in your party, social skills aren't your game.

Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)'s a nice cleric guide. And here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) is the revised version of the necromancy handbook you're using.

Normally I'd recommend taking the Dragon Wings feat (especially since only large and larger races get flight from the half dragon template) and other related feats since flight is always nice, but you can't fly in heavy armour, and flying in medium armour will burn all of your feats at the moment, so it's not that great a choice.

If you plan on buffing up and wading into melee, then power attack would be a good choice (but only if you don't plan on using a shield).

If you want DMM persist, then you'll need extend spell, persist spell and DMM(persist) which would also use up all of your feats (and you'll want extra turning later on) but would definitely be worth it, especially with nightsticks and high cha.

Zen Archery is worth it if you plan on being an archer cleric. Otherwise, skip it.

Fell animate would probably be a good feat to increase your zombie army. Apply it to weak spells and use them to finish off injured enemies.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not be a Cloistered Cleric, and use Mithral Breastplate as your armor, and be a Dragonborn with Wings, and get Knowledge Devotion?

Solve your Skill, flight, and some damage issues simultaneously.

Also, there are several ways to get your DMM up, even if you are only allowed one nightstick.

[Kymriana]

Okay. OKAY.

I will be willing to shift to a Dragonborn of Tiamat if it is that big of a difference in the character's effectiveness. (And I get to look more draconic than a half-dragon by the pictures... which is also a plus.)

Questions regarding this template then:
This does not do what Half-Dragon does which keeps the base-race's racials while adding the Dragonborn ones on top, right? It is now the +2 Con, -2 Dex period. From what I am reading, at least.

Okay. *deep breath*

Cloistered Cleric means I'm useless in battle and more or less relegated into a caster-role, yes? I'd HAVE to rely on my Undead in this case and not have the more meaty shield'n'mace aspect of a Cleric. (No Battle Pope if you go Cloistered, from what I'm gathering...) Since most everyone has been against the Half-Dragon at this point, I think I'll wave that white flag... and we actually do not have a Sorc/Wizard in the party, so being a more 'caster' instead of 'wade in and mace people' isn't really a horrible thing. Esp if I have an undead to do that for me ANYWAY.

This also lets me be level 10 and have 49,000gp to shop with before the game starts. SO...

Lets do this. If we can settle on the race and all, the feats/spells/skills necessary for a good Dragonborn Evil Necro Cleric are next.

The druid in the party is going to hate me. I approve of this fact greatly. >:}

PS: GM has ruled that to him, Nightsticks are wands that must be held in the hand to be used. Thus, no stacking and no just leaving them in a bag, tucked in a belt, or having 5 stitched to your bracers for a 'close to hands, so it counts' attempt at cheesing with them. (He actually wasn't aware of them or the horrible horrible wording of their description. I explained how they are abused and cheesed. This is why I play Lawful, even if I'm evil. XD )

[Waker]

Though I realize I was one of the people who suggested Dragonborn as a potential race, you shouldn't feel as though you are being forced into playing one, it's your character after all.

If you are going Dragonborn, the template removes all aspects of a race except your type, racial abilities modifiers and movement types. Anything else is taken out. Because of this most people tend to choice a race that has ability scores that mesh well with it, such as Mogrelfolk with their high Constitution or a race with an alternate movement type, such as Raptorans flying ability. You then apply the Dragonborn's racial ability modifiers and choose one of the three Draconic Aspects: Heart, Mind or Wings.

That being said, one of the "best" Dragonborn races would be Raptoran as this would grant you wings right away, meaning you can take Heart or Mind. Most people prefer Heart, especially if paired with the Metabreath or Breath Channeling feats.

[Kymriana]

I am actually OK with shifting to Dragonborn. I passed over them in the Races of the Dragon book on Saturday's planning session because they were Good Aligned and connected directly to Bahamut. I wasn't aware I could switch that to Tiamat and get to be Evil.

While I ponder the 'original' race... would I, as a Cleric(esp a Cloistered one) prefer a race with a + to Wis?

EDIT: I like that cheese, Waker. Though I'd have to talk him into letting me say the rebirth changed the feathered wings into membrane ones. (Hey, appearances matter... :smallwink: ) Provided the race is in a book my GM has, I'll see if he'll accept it.

[Waker]

I wouldn't be overly concerned with finding a race with a wisdom bonus. The vast majority of them have a LA or racial HD (or both) to contend with. Just make sure that you have a base race with decent stats or at least neutral stats.

Raptorans are in Races of the Wild.

[Thomasinx]

Cloistered Cleric means I'm useless in battle and more or less relegated into a caster-role, yes? I'd HAVE to rely on my Undead in this case and not have the more meaty shield'n'mace aspect of a Cleric. (No Battle Pope if you go Cloistered, from what I'm gathering...) Since most everyone has been against the Half-Dragon at this point, I think I'll wave that white flag... and we actually do not have a Sorc/Wizard in the party, so being a more 'caster' instead of 'wade in and mace people' isn't really a horrible thing. Esp if I have an undead to do that for me ANYWAY.

One of the things about a cleric is that you can do anything if you can cast the spells. For example, if you want to wade into battle, it doesn't matter what your strength/bab is, since you can just cast Divine Power (4th level spell, your BAB becomes your character level, and you get +6 to strength).

If you want to be the most powerful a cleric can be, you want to advance your spellcasting as much as possible, because the spellcasting will make everything else more powerful. Plus, buffing is a good step, even without nightstick DMM persists. (Even better when you buff the whole party... it makes your teammates very happy). It's important to remember that when in combat as a cleric, healing is usually one of the least effective actions you can take. There's all sorts of fun battlefield control spells, buffs, save-or-dies, and more that you can cast.


PS: GM has ruled that to him, Nightsticks are wands that must be held in the hand to be used. Thus, no stacking and no just leaving them in a bag, tucked in a belt, or having 5 stitched to your bracers for a 'close to hands, so it counts' attempt at cheesing with them. (He actually wasn't aware of them or the horrible horrible wording of their description. I explained how they are abused and cheesed. This is why I play Lawful, even if I'm evil. XD )

If I remember correctly, there's a wand that holds 3 wands, which you can then freely use as if you were holding all three. Plus, you can spend a flat price (2k i think?) To insert wands into weapons and shields and whatnot... if you wish to continue the DMM/persist fun.

[Kymriana]

HAha, a wand that holds three wands... That's just plain mean. XD I don't want to cheese nightsticks if at all possible. We'll see when push comes to shove anyway.

GM says he has Races of the Wild, so I will go the Raptoran-turned-Dragonborn route. Feats I want to be a bit stingy on, as I want to be SURE that I have my Necromancy firmly upheld before the more 'fluff' feats are looked into. (I would consider the Metabreath and Breath Channeling feats to be fluff as they are outside of the focal 'Necromancer Cleric' goal here. At least as I understand it.)

As I'm going Evil Cleric, I don't want to be their heal-bot anyway. Healing after battle in down-time... that I can deal with. (If they want evil necro-cleric dragonborn healing them at all. Heh.)

At this point, I've read and read and read... maybe it's a case that I'm really exhausted from all the E3 prep and continued work, but I keep getting confused. What I really need at this point is a narrowing down of what I need Feat/Spell/Skill wise. There's just so much with the Cleric alone, not to mention the Libris Mortis. So quick easy answers as a guide would help my tired and confused mind at this point.
1: What Feats as a Necromancer-Cleric do I NEED?
2: What spells should I focus on learning/understanding best/first?
3: What main Skills do I invest in to make the Necro-Cleric shine?

All other Feats/Spells/Skills are 'fluff' and I will better be able to shift though and pick those to accent the core character once I get the functionality settled. Since I'm now going to get to be level 10 from the get-go, there's even more I need to know... @_@ /le sigh

Thanks for all the help so far, too. I know I keep saying it, but it's really hard to find anyone to explain all of this to me in time for the game this weekend. -_-' You all have already been a massive help.

[Waker]

Feats that you might consider:
Corpsecrafter- For obvious reasons.
Tomb-Tained Soul- Means you can heal your minions and yourself with the same spells.
Domain Spontaneity- Not everyone might like it, but I find it useful for having just the right spell available. Tie it to the Undeath domain and you will always have access to undead creation spells.
Fell Animate- One of the cheapest ways to get minions. Just use it on a low-level spell and use it to coup de grace a downed foe.

Deities: Tiamat is fine, but you should probably consider Falazure as he has the Undeath Domain. You should see if your DM will also allow him to have the Deathbound domain, since the domain wasn't introduced until after Draconomicon.

Domains: Deathbound, Evil, Undeath. I prefer Deathbound and Undeath, but Evil will work if your options are limited.

Spells: Read up on Animate Dead, the various Create Undead spells, Desecrate.

PrCs: There aren't many PrCs that advance spellcasting and rebuking. Master of Shrouds is decent, Bone Knight (Eberron, Five Nations) is very nice. There might be another one or two that I'm not as familiar with, but certain ones like True Necromancers are terrible, avoid it like the plague.

Stat Allocation: Wis is your first and biggest focus. Charisma and Con are your next concerns, you could favor Charisma a bit more since you plan on being a background character, but don't tank Constitution too much. Your other stats are easy to ignore.

Non-Necromancy related feats:
Improved Flight: Having better maneuverability is decent, though not strictly required.
Entangling Exhilaration: Very useful feat for battlefield control.

[Kymriana]

Thank you very much, Waker. This is slimming down what I have to deal with A LOT and that is helping me get it all finalized.

I can't actually take Falazure... my GM told me with a laugh the other day that in his campagine setting, Fal is dead. XD He didn't say I had to take a particular deity, actually. So I'm going to just merrily pick my own domains until such time as he slaps my wrist and says no.

I believe I will take the Corpsecrafter first and foremost. That will benefit me the most as a Necro. Along with my Desecration and my Animate Dead abilities I'll have starting at 10, this sets me up nicely.

The Cleric threads seem to say if I don't take Divine Metamagic, I'm a fool. Is this one I should have, as well? I have 3 Feats to start with, after all. The Cleric Guide that I was linked earlier pointed out that Clerics can/should have a secondary role set up, due to their massive versatility, and being a one-trick-pony would be short-sighted. In that, I might go a 'buff-master' route so that I can help the rest of my party AND my minions. (I'm a nasty lawful evil dragonborn-type, but my life would probably more annoying if the meatshields... I mean other party members were to die on me in the middle of something important...) In that aspect, Persistent Spell would let me buff people up way before a combat started and then focus on my undead darlings the rest of the time? (See why I had so many questions and so much confusion about the massive list of very good looking options Clerics get? Seriously, Clerics are just... OP.)

[Waker]

Personally I've never liked the DMM/Persist combo. That being said, it is a potent combination, but it is generally best used to buff yourself. Remember that without factoring in metamagic reducers, using DMM/Persist would require seven uses of Turn/Rebuke, which would make buffing the party pretty difficult. I can't seem to find any metamagic feats that really work that well with buffing except Extend Spell.
If you wanted another role to fill, you could focus on battlefield control, debuffing or you could make yourself into a melee fighter.
Battlefield control can be accomplished with entangling breath and certain conjuration spells combined with Extend, Sculpt, or Widen Spell.
Debuffing is simple to accomplish since you have a focus on necromancy already. Fell Drain pair is especially popular.
Melee simply requires the DMM/Persist Divine Power.

I had mentioned it in an earlier post, but you might like going with Divine Magician from Complete Mage. It loses you a domain, but lets you pick spells of the Abjuration, Divination and Necromancy schools from the Wizard spell list. It lets you grab little gems like Enervate.

[Qwertystop]

This seems cool, so I'm monitoring it. Not much to say that hasn't been said, except that you might want to see if you can start off with minions in exchange of some of your starting equipment.

If not, buy a lot of dragonhide armor and possibly dragonbone weapons if that exists, then assemble and animate.

[Kymriana]

So, here's a question about Fell Drain....

Don't creatures who die with negative levels become Wights? Which I can get control of? Which can then create other Wights that obey them? Or did I not understand that properly?


This seems cool, so I'm monitoring it. Not much to say that hasn't been said, except that you might want to see if you can start off with minions in exchange of some of your starting equipment.

If not, buy a lot of dragonhide armor and possibly dragonbone weapons if that exists, then assemble and animate.

Wait.... I can DO that?! o_0

[Waker]

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
Taken from the SRD. Killing creatures with a negative level attack turns them into a wight, which you can then take control of using the Command option of Turn/Rebuke.
As for the question of dragon hide/bone, I know that you can use Resurrection on it, but I don't know of any way to bring them back as an undead creature. Though I suppose you could resurrect and then kill them.

[Kymriana]

Oh, it takes a full day for the change to happen? Hrm. I'll need something to keep bodies in... >_> /looks up magical items

My coworker who is playing the Half-Dragon/Kobold rogue loves the idea of me being able to CC the battle field... and it would probably help out the others like the archer-type goliath(? I think that's what he is...) and so on. I don't want to step on any one elses' toes, however. I wish I knew what the Druid and Bard were focusing on. I'll poke my GM.

Since I'm going to have Flight off the bat, I was leaning towards going with Heart and having the breath weapon. Just seems... fun. And I do want to have fun here. ;)

Cloistered Cleric gives me a freebie Domain in Knowledge and a bunch of spells per level from a set list. I'm restricted to light armor(which is fine with Flight and a Mithril Breastplate) and go from D8 hit die to D6... though the point of a Necro is to have something between me and whatever wants to mess with those D6...

I'll go Deathbound and Undead for my Domains with free Knowledge on the side.

[Qwertystop]

Wait.... I can DO that?! o_0

Getting a minion instead of starting gold is not allowed by RAW, but I can see a DM allowing it if you make sure the rate of gold-to-minions is fair.

Animating dragonbone weapons and dragonhide armor is only allowed if all the gear is put together well enough to be considered a single corpse. Probably with Craft (Taxidermy). It might also have to be from a single dragon. Otherwise you get into some of the odder undead that are really more like flesh golems.

However, you could cast Resurrection on some dragonhide armor, then kill the dragon. Just make sure the dragon is worth raising but not strong enough to kill you.

[Kymriana]

Here's a question for you, Qwertystop, if you'll allow. Is there any way for me to store bodies for animation later? I know there's the Dimensional Hole or whatever... but that's relatively small. Since I can't really carry much and be able to glide/fly.... it's hard to tote around useful bodies.

[Thomasinx]

I had mentioned it in an earlier post, but you might like going with Divine Magician from Complete Mage. It loses you a domain, but lets you pick spells of the Abjuration, Divination and Necromancy schools from the Wizard spell list. It lets you grab little gems like Enervate.

Now if only you can get yourself magic missile and have fun with fell drain magic missiles... Force domain perhaps?

[Randomguy]

The "wand that holds three wands" is a rod of many wands, in complete arcane.

In general, clerics are a bit worse in terms of battlefield control than druids are, but battlefield control doesn't typically require much focus in terms of feats, so you can just prepare a bunch of battlefield control spells if it turns out the druid is focusing more on melee and buffing.

Some battlefield control spells on the cleric list are deeper darkness and darkness, wind wall (AKA neutralise archers), knight's move (make sure you're buffed for melee) and wall of X.

The very, very focused Buffmaster clerics work by using Reach spell, DMM Chain spell and DMM persist spell, so you cast, for example, reach DMM Chain DMM persist death ward on all your living allies to make them immune to inflict spells for the entire day, or a reach DMM Chain DMM persist life ward on all your favourite undead minions, to make it so that they can't be turned or killed by heal spells. There's also Reach Chain (but not persisted) greater magic weapon, so a +1 flaming shocking weapon of speed becomes a +5 flaming shocking weapon of speed, and the same with magic vestment.
In general, people get enough turn attempts with extra turning, high cha, and more than one turning pool, which is easiest to get for neutral or good clerics by having one for rebuking and one for turning (via a death delver dip, for example).
This requires much, much more cheese then you probably intend on using, though.

The less focused buffing clerics use DMM persist Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (basically haste), Lesser Vigor (or vigor, greater vigor or vigorous circle) to continuously heal your party. Greater Magic Weapon on the fighter, Greater magic vestment on you and anyone that can't wear armour, superior resistance on anyone you feel like helping.
For you personally, there's divine power, righteous wrath, divine favour and creeping darkness.

Remember to cast all of your all day buff spells in the morning right after you use a prayer bead of karma, for the extra caster level.

[Qwertystop]

Here's a question for you, Qwertystop, if you'll allow. Is there any way for me to store bodies for animation later? I know there's the Dimensional Hole or whatever... but that's relatively small. Since I can't really carry much and be able to glide/fly.... it's hard to tote around useful bodies.

Hmmm...

By "Dimensional Hole", I assume you mean Portable Hole.

Firstly, go for the Enveloping Pit instead. It's in the Magic Item Compendium. You can only use it if you have one of three specific alignments, but if you do, it's a Portable Hole except cheaper and bigger. The feat/worship is only required for a secondary function.

Second, Bags of Holding or a Handy Haversack can do a similar thing.

Thirdly, Shrink Item (or something like that, unsure of the name) is a Core spell that would let you shrink the corpses (dead, therefore objects) so you could fit more.

[Kymriana]

Yes, I meant Portable Hole.

Thank you very much. :D Those are all very helpful suggestions. :3 I will jot them down and look them up later.

[Waker]

Bear in mind the potential risk of using Bag of Holding and similar items to transport would-be corpses. A bag of holding can be ruined if punctured from the inside, so don't use it to carry a corpse about to turn into a Wight. For just carrying a corpse you are planning on animating is fine though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Cloistered Clerics can be COMBAT GODS.

Really.

Never ever think because the designers thought they sucked at melee combat, that they actually had to really suck at melee combat.

Here's a few simple steps for you to take, to make them a combat god:

1.) Trade Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion)
2.) Get Persistent Spell. Make sure to Persist Divine Power. Nor your BAB = your character level
3.) Make sure your con starts at, at least 14. Ideally 16.
4.) Get a second pool of Turn Undead attempts. Perhaps Sacred Exorcist, combined with one of the starting Turn Undead alternatives, plus a nightstick and reliquary holy symbol, to have huge amounts of TU equivalents
5.) Persist some hardcore combat buffs other than just Divine Power
6.) Wear a Mithral Breastplate or equivalent as your armor
7.) Wield a Morningstar, or if you wish to affect larger amounts of the battlefield, a longspear or fauchard with gauntlet for close in fighting, or Get MWP: Guisarme or EWP: Spiked Chain, and maybe take Stand Still or Knock Down or something like that.

--------


Anyway, other stuff... look at the Enveloping Pit in MIC to hold your stuff..

[ryu]

So epic levels have a mass animate dead right? What would happen if that were cast into the containment device which would then be opened and thrown into the mouth of your favored epic opponent? Yes I have a disgusting sense of humor and curiosity. I think they're kind of base qualities for a necromancer right?

[Gavinfoxx]

Epic levels have Epic Spellcasting, which pretty much means the character can arbitrarily do whatever they want.

[ryu]

So in the situation given what happens when an army of undead explodes out of a bag of holding inside your given enemy of choice?

[Kymriana]

12hr work day... YEESH. /rude gesture to E3

Okay, I think have have enough to get the core of my character fully written up in the next day or so. I'll toss up when I have it done and it, hopefully, won't be too off.

Thank you all! I understand the Cleric class and the Necromancy aspect a LOT more, esp with the focus you provided and the extra 'handbook' threads.

EDIT: Ryu, I like how you think. XD And I, personally, see a rather messy 'pop' in that creature's future. And several grossed out party members. >:}

[ryu]

And then you stitch it back together and make another undead. I don't know about you but I treat anything necromantic like a REALLY morbid game of pikmen. Kill enemies-> Get raw materials-> reanimate-> enchant-> repeat. And if your bard can spontaneously buff all of them at once with the perform AoEs things get even more pwnsome.:smallamused:

[Kymriana]

That sounds like a GRAND time, personally.

I think the Druid will have a nervous breakdown. Cry. Or something to that effect. I look forward to it.

Hm. I really WILL need to see about the Enveloping Pit AND the Haversack... spell components and specimens... fun fun.

[ryu]

Keep in mind though that if the druid isn't optimizing well you'll likely be the big threat at the table. Make sure most of your best strategies get some great boosts from things your teammates do. For example make the bard realize repeatedly just how awesomely they combine with your hordes. Let the druid be the beast of battle that either draws attention from the undead or have them fire blasty spells into crowds of your zombies and the enemy. That brings the synergy of concentrated carpet bombing together with healing all the other undead nearby. As for the rogue... Recommend prioritizing trap finding skills and if the trap seems to much have a zombie walk into it. See what I'm saying? Be the one who always contributes, but never makes anyone feel useless.

[Kymriana]

That's exactly why I was not really keen on the DMM-cheese battle-CoDzilla thing. It isn't fun if people aren't able to 'shine' with their chosen classes. That's why I had no problem sliding into Cloistered Cleric, as we don't have a Sorc/Wizard and I won't MIND sitting further back and just working with minions and buffing to a point. (Though I do want to be able to mace people if they get overly close... which it appears I can do.)

[ryu]

Also try using any fell drain damaging AoE on virtually any large amount of wildlife. You get a ton of minions and the druid has three consecutive mental breakdowns. Great if you're feeling especially vindictive.

Also fun character quirk to have: Get an item to protect from level loss, find a commoner child that's orphaned and homeless, make a wight of him, awaken him, and treat him as a familiar patting him on the head when he does something right. It's kinda one of those ambiguous moral cases which is either terrifying or cute or both depending on how you look at it.

[Kymriana]

That's just plain warped.

I'd totally do it. XD However, I don't want to rock the party-boat TOO too much. The fact that I'm of the Evil alignment is already a balancing act. I enjoy making people twitch, but I don't want to cause actual party-strife and make it hard to work together. (More than I already am... I figure the half-black-dragon kobold rogue takes a BIT of the pressure off of the lawful evil dragonborn necro-cleric... a bit.)

[ryu]

Okay but option two is at least kinda ambiguous. Anyone in the party complains you point out that the poor kid is no longer without a place to ''sleep'' and he gets to ''eat'' regularly now. Plus it's character building. Villain with a soft spot for that one minion is a pretty classic trope to play on. Bonus points if you tell him the paladin chasing you just wants a hug. Would you say killing a sentient, but controlled innocent (I mean a young child here) is an evil act? Make the paladin choose between death by wighthood and losing class features.

[Kymriana]

I like you. That's just awesome. XD

We'll see what happens as the adventure goes. ;) I won't start with that, but who knows what might happen... haha.

[ryu]

Eh maybe once your current game is done we can start something play by post. I must warn you though that I have no experience with those and may well end up making a fool of myself with dice rollers and such. I will agree that we have a pretty similar sense of style and would probably do well in a game. Just imagine the two of us and maybe a few others working together to play god as tier ones. Fun times.

[Kymriana]

I floated the idea of the wight-child to a few of the party members tonight when we met for drinks after work and they were all very amused by the idea. Esp since the half-dragon kobold rogue is the type to mess with the bard to get her to do stupid stuff around my less-than-amused necromancer just so that I'd tell the kid to 'give the lady a hug' without looking up from my book. (He pointed out there was no way in hell HE would mess with the Necro, but he'd LOVE to manipulate and watch the bard screw around with her... he's a mean little thing. XD ) I'm VERY tempted to find a way to get the little kid-wight just for the lawl-value. And he pointed out that it would be a fun little quality of 'evil character with a 'soft spot' for an innocent child... ignoring the whole killing with negative levels to make it into an undead servant thing... of course'.

I'll leave it up to the GM if he'll allow it to happen. XD But it would be a hoot.

Now, a quick question... I was kind of 'balancing out' my stats and the other players were surprised I didn't max out my Wis with a 20. Right now I have it at
STR:12(2)
DEX:12(4)
CON:16(4)
INT:16(6)
WIS:18(8)
CHA:16(6)

They think I should remove the 2 from Dex and put them into Wis instead. (I had to put 4 into Dex to balance out the -2 template.) (Oh, and the 30pts takes into consideration the 2 level-up bonuses already. So it is a flat 30 to spend. And it is 1 for 1, no higher cost per higher number deal.)

I'm hesitant to pull TOO much from Dex... but I haven't read up enough to be sure it doesn't handicap me regarding the Flight movement ability. (Not enough time to read, since I'm working E3 all g-d day. :( And I have a migraine now so I can't stay up and study it without paying a price for it now AND tomorrow... So eh. I have to ask and rely upon this thread.)

Oh, and when I was debating about a book-issue with the GM and why I was willing to buy him a book just so he'd let me use something(which we negotiated away because the book is rare and expensive and I have a tight budget as it is tyvm) he said '...but you want your portable graveyard? :P'

Looks like I get my Enveloping Pit. Woot! :D (It's a LOT cheaper than I thought it would be, too. o_0 And now I have to see what other magical items I want/need... So far I'm eyeing the Scepter of the Netherworld and Talisman of Undead Mastry... and the Ring of Sustenance for a lot of reasons.)

[ryu]

I certainly wouldn't take points from dex. It's a dodge bonus to ac that may actually come up and I'm not familiar with dragon abilities of this sort so it might effect your flight true. I will ask why you put points into strength though. Is it fluff? Are you worried that you'll have trouble carrying things despite your minions? Is it a stat bonus due to race that I missed? If they are points you put in I would recommend switching them on a purely mechanical basis into wis. Also why the 16 int? Do you need a lot of skillpoints or something? I wouldn't full stop dump it, but it doesn't need to be that important. Cha I get though as it's the turn undead stat, which will probably be helping your army and fueling DMM later. In other words There are a few small tweaks I'd make stat wise but they're just that small. You can disregard if you're looking for fluff or anything else I mentioned while still being serviceable.

I also won't judge your magic items as there are many useful tools and you'll probably get most of them eventually.

[Kymriana]

The Int stat is part skills and part personal pride. Str is not AS important, but I worry about my weight-carrying for gear. It isn't ASSURED that I'll always have minions and if we go into town and I have to shove them in my magic pit.... eh. But I'd be willing to drop it down, I suppose. I'll ponder it... This means Cha is very important for the Turn/Rebuke checks. (Int is also good for some of the checks I'll have to do against particular people in my own party... XD )

[ryu]

True but you will always have divine casting. If you can't use undead keeping a spare buff around is never a bad thing. What's that enemy fighter got past the zombies? Divine power! And suddenly you're on the same tier for one on one combat and can stall for zombie aid. Also if you're really worried about carrying capacity buy a mule. At level 10 a mule is a drop in the money bucket.

[Gavinfoxx]

Did you look at my post --and the equipment and acf's and such mentioned-- regarding Cloistered Cleric yet? Those guys can totally still be insane combat monsters...

High strength, full BAB (from a spell), free knowledge devotion, tons of persistent spells, solid armor options (mithral breastplate, and maybe even those sanctified armor spells in book of exalted deeds)... tons of skill points and skills for knowledge devotion...

yea, melee combat monster...

[ryu]

Yeah cloistered cleric is more mechanically powerful than a cleric if you know what you're doing. I'm not sure if she's using it or not, but at this rate she's going to be kicking some serious tail either way.

[Kymriana]

Yes, I am using Cloistered Cleric. You missed the part where I have specifically said I am trying to avoid being a 'powerhouse melee'... I want everyone in the party to shine in what THEY want to do, and I'm going to let my focus be Buffing and Minions, because no one else in the party can do that.

Yes, if I used particular spells and particular buffs I could still be a powerhouse if I NEEDED to, but that isn't the 'role' I want in the party. There are others who are focusing on melee classes that I want to let shine and enjoy themselves, too.

Also, the GM warned that I shouldn't focus TOO terribly much on combat. I have a feeling his game will be a lot of politics and RPing and not super heavy on the combat aspect. That's one reason I am being a bit pushy on keeping my character's flavour what I wanted it from day one, more or less. It's another reason I'm going for versatility. ;)

And yes, Cloistered Cleric with a Mithril Breastplate was already planned. (I've been wondering if I should enchant it, too... but eh.)

[ryu]

Oh I'm not suggesting melee powerhouse as a focus. I'm just saying learning divine power and some simple Divine metamagic is a good backup plan for those times when things go pear shaped. Combine with wings for epic combat survival. Further I'm not going to be pushy about anything. I'm just pointing out recommendations for optimization and giving reasons for all of them. All of these suggestions are just tips on how to be ready for any given trouble. Use whatever fits at your groups power level.

Stupid forum errors... I hope this isn't a double post.

[Kymriana]

Heh, no worries. I take all suggestions to heart because I know that I can fall back on them if things go south fast. XD (Like party getting split up, etc... it happens.)

One reason I went Buffs as my backup to Minions is I knew I'd be able to scramble-power myself up enough to survive if something bad happens. (Or a party member turns on me....)

[ryu]

And then you animate dead AGAIN. Anyone complains you point out self defense. As for party familiarity why waste a perfectly good teammate? :smallamused:

[Waker]

Well, it sounds like more of less that you have your character covered in the mechanical aspects, but do you know what your character's personality is going to be? I'd suggest a cheery necromancer. Have an adorable little (undead) doggy, adopt orphans from the city you just annihilated, dance under the rainbows made from the rain (of blood), pick flowers in the graveyard.

[Kymriana]

I pointed that out to the Bard last night and she gave me a sad face and said 'be gentle'. I laughed.

I also pointed out that if a party member dies, we don't have to drag them back to town to revive them, I could just animate them. We'd revive them later. (Maybe.)

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, there are some useful spells to persist in general, though... even for utility purposes.

Remember, with Mass Lesser Vigor persisted, this essentially means that you and a small group of people can hustle far more than the 8 hours of a forced march, letting you outmaneuver folk by running around them...

Also, Interfaith Blessing has great utility, even out of combat... even Prayer helps with skill checks!

You can persist Speak with animals (if you get it from a domain) or comprehend languages!

Elation helps with the emotional state of your allies, AND gives them some bonuses that can help outside of combat!

'Grace' is awesome for certain utility things too....

There are LOTS of things!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7428.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7543.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7468.0

[ryu]

Already considering those options well in advance of being told eh? Yep you're most definitely ready to play this game. Also suddenly I'm imagining the implications of an epic evil cleric controlling a small platoon of liches on top of the horde of ''normal'' undead. You are now imagining taking out several dragons in one day using only fell draining magic missiles. Ah the glory of it all.

[Kymriana]

Well, it sounds like more of less that you have your character covered in the mechanical aspects, but do you know what your character's personality is going to be? I'd suggest a cheery necromancer. Have an adorable little (undead) doggy, adopt orphans from the city you just annihilated, dance under the rainbows made from the rain (of blood), pick flowers in the graveyard.

You want me to be Richard? XD Ah, Richard... I do love him.

I'd rather be a bit sour and grumpy. It would have the little kid-wight be all the more disturbing, should I get it.

I now have the urge to watch Slaughter Your World again...

[Waker]

Honestly until you mentioned Slaughter the World, I had no idea what you were talking about. It's been awhile, but except for sarcasm, Richard wasn't that nice of a guy.

[Kymriana]

I suppose it depends on what you consider nice... I guess I find him funny as hell and I think there is a lot more to him than has been shown... (A lot has been hinted, though.) I find him a 'nice guy' in how he ACTS... aka: Cheery, cracks jokes, always kidding around. Nice as in 'good aligned'? No way.

We're going to have cheery cheeky bubbly people in the party already. And one that has modeled his character a bit after Deadpool's personality. I think a bit more sour/stern will help balance the whole thing out. XD

[ryu]

Oh how ironic that the one taking tidbits from an immortal, wisecracking zombie ISN'T the party necromancer cleric. You're going to have an interesting group for absolute certain.

[Kymriana]

That's the goal. ;) Make it as lively and interesting as possible.

Oh, and I will have a wicked sense of humor. I just will use it at the right times to properly confuse/creep people out. ^^ It isn't any fun if you can't make them go 'wait... wha... D:'

This is my chance to learn/perfect 'gallows humor'... :} Learning is good.

[ryu]

Ah good old dark, stoic, and disturbing. It's also a good archetype to work with. Throw in a twist or two like the kid and you're more fleshed out than about half the dnd characters in existence. Good luck with scaring the ever-loving @!#$ out of your friends.

[Kymriana]

Haha, one can hope.

E3 is officially over in about 4min and I should now have time(and energy) to finish up my sheet tonight. I will post up what I get here for a final 'look over'.

Thank you all, for the help and suggestions. DnD is a very different system to GURPS and it is a relief to have a bit of help processing it all. (I'm still not there on all of it, but I'll get there.)

[ryu]

And this is why the dnd forum is awesome. It's the worlds greatest tutorial. How does this system work? There are entire threads made just for that. Oh but I have a question about X... Okay here's the answer to X and also Y and Z you were probably going to ask. Also some of the best legal education you can't pay for. Heck some of the best philosophical debate you can't pay for. Have you seen the alignment threads?

[Kymriana]

Hey all!

We had our first actual game last night(sort of... hours and hours of 'still working on sheets' which eventually made it to a bit of actual playing, which was mostly just getting the random people to the 'starting' point and meeting each other...) and I got to see everyone's characters, more or less. The wide swath of odd characters is going to make for a VERY interesting group.

Lawful Good Soulborn: He's not thrilled with my character, but he's trying to figure out how to deal with it... and I'm both apprehensive about the situation and gleefully amused by it all at the same time.

Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf Druid: She's also a conspiracy theorist. Full blown out there would-wear-a-tin-foil-hat-if-they-had-them type. Also socially awkward to an extreme. And takes her shapeshifting to new heights. The term 'socially awkward penguin' is actually literal with her when she gets flustered, apparently.

Chaotic Neutral Kobold Half-Dragon Rogue: He's tricking the entire party into thinking he's a halfling right now. (Magic item that lets him appear so. He's doing everything possible to avoid my character right now, as he's not sure if I can see through it or not.) He's going to be the 'Deadpool' of the party, we can already tell.

Lawful Neutral Monk: Human, pretty blunt. Okay, overly blunt. He managed to piss my character off almost right away after meeting her by insulting her boss to his face... (Her boss being one of the 3 most powerful entities on this GM's world setting. A Death Knight in charge of all communication between the countries/continents. It's weird.)

Elf Bard: I didn't catch her alignment. She will claim, if anyone asks(or not) that she's half-nymph. Repeatedly. She also is the chatty type. Bouncy. Bubbly. I can already see the twitching my character will be doing.

Chaotic Good Goliath Cragarcher: Big guy. Uses his head. And for his size is surprisingly sneaky and quiet. Only character that is taller than mine, I believe.

And then me... the Lawful Evil Black-Dragonborn Cleric. Given that almost all Chromatic Dragons are extinct on the world the GM has us on right now, seeing someone that looks like a Black Dragon got some interesting reactions when they saw her. Hiding, wanting to poke it to see if it was real, mildly curious, freaked out, and being torn between wanting to smite it and knowing they can't... it was interesting. It'll be even more fun when they find out she's both a Necro and one of the only people aside from the tin-foil-hat druid that can heal them.

I'm looking forward to some really weird times with this group.

As for the stats/Feats I settled on:
STR: 10(I have buffs to up it if necessary)
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 20
CHA: 18(Effective 23 with two magic items I currently have)

Feats:
Fell Animate
Corpsecrafter
Extra Turning
Divine Metamagic: Extend Spell

Domains:
Undeath
Deathbound
Knowledge(Cloistered Cleric)

It's been almost a year since I picked up my art pencil... I have to admit, I really am tempted to do so to draw ol' Kym up. That said, looking at Black Dragons in the books makes me go D: when attempting to draw them. XD Ah well.

Thank you all, btw, for helping me to find all the possibilities and teaching me about Clerics and Necros. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing how our game goes now. :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

Both of you lawful? Get him to agree to a verbal contract that basically amounts to: You aren't allowed to harm or maliciously hinder each other unless the other has broken this contract first or given specific permission in which case the contract is not broken. If he really must have more no harming civilians except in self defense or with permission from them. That starving orphan who's willing to try anything to stop being hungry for instance. Also messing with your undead counts as malicious hindrance as per the contract. I can't promise success, but it's worth suggesting the offer.

[Kymriana]

Well, technically he's going to have to war with himself about her... because SHE is Lawful, she's not going to get up in his grill about things. Like I told him "I'm Lawful Evil, not Evil Stupid." And remember that Deathknight I mentioned above? One of the three most powerful entities on this particular world? The communication hubs are towers that are staffed with undead, so they require very little maintenance. He apparently has a treaty/agreement worked out(he's Lawful Evil) with the other two power-houses about it. And those that work for him as Necros are 'no touchy unless they break the agreement... unless you want all of your communications to be cut off and earn the ire of this particular dude'... And if you think my girl isn't FULLY aware of this and will use it... ;)

Over all, he's talked with the GM a lot and also wants to play Lawful Good, not Good Stupid(which is how A LOT of people play Lawful Good... I see it all the time.). It will be tricky, but it isn't impossible.

It's going to be fun, either way.

[ryu]

Okay so it's cool. I didn't know you already had a full out system in place. I thought your conflict was at a more basic stage.