Beastmorph Alchemist Question.

[Crazysaneman]

As I read it, the beastmorph alchemist's (BMA) mutagen gives effects of the beastmorph spell with greater changes over the levels, so my question is this...

Do the effects stack? Do you get 9 effects of the various beastmorph spells at 14th level?

low light vision, darkvision 60', scent, flight 60, grab, pounce, constrict, poison, rake, and blindsight 30' at 14th level?

:smalleek:

also, do you get the size changes that the various additions could give you or just the EX stuff?


Because if this works as is written and interpreted, I have a heck of a build I want to play!

[NamelessNPC]

No, it doesn't stack

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

[Benly]

NamelessNPC, that text isn't actually relevant to the question at hand. He's not asking whether multiple doses of the mutagen would stack (they wouldn't, but it's because of the mutagen rules; the mutagen isn't a polymorph effect), he's asking whether the bonuses granted by the Beastform Mutagen abilities are cumulative or replace the previous iterations.

The answer is that as written they are cumulative. This is probably unintentional, but as written you do get one ability from Alter Self, two from Beast Shape I, three from Beast Shape II, and four from Beast Shape III. Size changes are not on the table, though, since you don't actually change your form. You get to pick off the "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability" menus.

[Crazysaneman]

Thank you, NamelessNPC for your input. I actually did not know that polymorph effects did not stack by RAW, so bonus for me no more houseruling.

Thank you as well Benly for the input. I thought they read as cumulative bonuses, and would allow it for my players, however it is good to see at least one person agrees with me.

Anyone else have an opinion on this matter?

[grarrrg]

The intent is definitely that the abilities replace each other, meaning you only get 4 abilities at 14th level.

But I can see how the wording is ambiguous.

[Benly]

Yeah, I agree that it's almost certainly an unintentional consequence of poor editing, but it's written as four unrelated abilities that don't directly reference each other in any way and don't overlap their bonuses (unless you choose bonuses that overlap, like picking flight speed off more than one list) so RAW they all work at once.

[krai]

It would be worth asking your DM though if you have some cool idea using that. The abilities are useful but none seem like they would be game breaking. Candidness about your desire to abuse the RAW tends to work well in my experience.

[Benly]

It would be worth asking your DM though if you have some cool idea using that. The abilities are useful but none seem like they would be game breaking. Candidness about your desire to abuse the RAW tends to work well in my experience.

They're not game breaking, as you say; they're more powerful than most of what melee characters get, but at that level spellcasters are downright terrifying. However, some of them are broken in the "doesn't work right" sense.

Trample's damage is defined by the creature's slam damage, and Poison won't have any of its parameters defined (DC, effects, etc.) so neither of them will function on most alchemists. Grab needs to have a defined associated natural attack; most DMs would probably let you pick one of your natural attacks to assign it to, but strictly as written it won't work. Likewise, while Constrict and Rake are usually equal to the damage of the creature's primary melee attack and the creature's claws respectively, they won't technically have assigned values if you pick them up with Beastmorph so it'll take some DM flexibility. Jet needs to have an assigned speed to work properly, so if you were planning on ever taking Jet that'll also need working out.

The long and the short of it is that your DM will have to be in a good mood for Beastmorph to work properly at all, so be sure you talk it out with her in advance instead of springing "by the way, I have ten new abilities now" by surprise.