Random Thought: Monk Power

[willpell]

Just popped into my head, a simple and elegant way to make monks almost as good as fighters (sad, isn't it): give them full BAB progression, let them take Weapon Finesse and Power Attack feats somehow, and allow Power Attack to affect their Unarmed Strikes (normally it doesn't work on light weapons, and annoyingly enough your US is always considered a light weapon no matter how strong you are; even a half-dragon's claws and bite are light weapons and thus can't get Power Attack, which really sucks). With this combo, the monk is using Dexterity for precision strikes which can gain extra damage equal to his level by lowering his to-hit.

Combine that with Flurry of Blows and you start to get something close to what I think the designers thought the Monk was supposed to be in the first place: a whirling tornado of deadly nerve punches. He would still have the same problems that all melee characters face in terms of untouchable opponents and noncombat situations, and would still feel silly not being able to pick up the +5 greatsword that his fighter buddy uses to maintain relevance at higher levels. But if you're playing a monk, you accept those risks, and it would at least be nice if you could actually do what you were supposed to be doing in the first place, which is hit people really hard in their sensitive spots with your bare hands.

[ThiagoMartell]

In my RHoD game, there is a Strenght based Pathfinder Monk (Martial Artist archetype). She's been doing well so far.
Funnily enough, Martial Artist is similar to what you propose, since it counts as a Fighter of his Monk level for Fighter-only feats and Pathfinder flurry counts Monk levels as full BAB.

[willpell]

I'm not into Pathfinder.

[mattie_p]

A monk can Power Attack their unarmed strike, as can a half dragon:


You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks)

[eggs]

Look at the Swordsage, Cleric and Psychic Warrior.

Base attack and ability condensation are not the Monk's problem.

The Monk's abilities are the Monk's problem.

[willpell]

Those classes all require you to read through dozens of pages of spells, powers, or maneuvers before you know what they do. I'm fine with the idea that you need that sort of effort to figure out how to deal with every problem under the sun, but if all you want to do is kill goblins and ogres and such, it shouldn't take that much research. Fighter-type characters are my go-to when I want a "beer and pretzels" game; basic tactical combat should form an easy baseline, from which magic and psionics and such offers the possibility of occasional deviation, not a complete negation of the basic paradigm.

@ Mattie P: I stand corrected! So the build I described in the OP is in fact completely RAW? Neat! I guess I got what I needed.

[mattie_p]

If by what you needed was Power Attack, then yes. If by what you needed was a viable higher-tiered monk, full BAB will not be sufficient, although it helps. There have been various (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk) other (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108954) attempts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238952) to fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240494) the monk, none of which I've tested, but might be considered.

[prufock]

As others have said, Power Attack is already available for unarmed strikes. So is Weapon Finesse, since "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon." I believe one of the Monk style variants in Unearthed Arcana grants it as a bonus feat.

Improving their BAB helps, but the monk's biggest problems are still its dependence on multiple ability scores and the class features that don't scale or synergise well.

[Lateral]

If by what you needed was Power Attack, then yes. If by what you needed was a viable higher-tiered monk, full BAB will not be sufficient, although it helps. There have been various (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk) other (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108954) attempts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238952) to fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240494) the monk, none of which I've tested, but might be considered.

You forgot the popular one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

[ThiagoMartell]

You forgot the popular one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

That's remarkably similar to the Pathfinder Monk.

[Lateral]

That's remarkably similar to the Pathfinder Monk.

It's remarkably similar to the regular Monk, too. That's kind of the point.

[mattie_p]

You forgot the popular one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

My apologies. I googled "3.5 Monk fix" and didn't find that one based on that particular wording. I'll try harder next time.

[McToomin]

Wouldn't the easiest monk fix be to just give them pounce? Bam, suddenly their two most prominent abilities (fast movement and flurry of (unarmed) blows) synergize instead of working against each other.

[Lateral]

Wouldn't the easiest monk fix be to just give them pounce? Bam, suddenly their two most prominent abilities (fast movement and flurry of (unarmed) blows) synergize instead of working against each other.

...And yet they still can't hit anything, and lack any semblance of decent class features.

[ThiagoMartell]

Wouldn't the easiest monk fix be to just give them pounce? Bam, suddenly their two most prominent abilities (fast movement and flurry of (unarmed) blows) synergize instead of working against each other.

I think allowing flurry as a standard action, like jiriku's fix, is a lot more elegant.

[Curmudgeon]

This does almost nothing to fix the weaknesses of the Monk class. With a little effort, such as a handy daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop from your party spellcaster, the one thing the Monk is good at is hitting hard.

It's pretty much everything else that make the Monk a poor class. That is, it's got over a dozen different abilities that don't work together to accomplish anything in particular. Their fast movement is nifty ─ and completely useless for Flurry of Blows. Abundant Step is even worse: not only does it take a standard action to use, but it has the Dimension Door limit of disallowing any actions afterward. Monks gain Purity of Body to make them immune to natural diseases and so can safely touch those with infections spread by contact, but they don't have Heal as a class skill to treat that disease. And how do speaking with all creatures, not aging, being able to fall near a wall, and ultimately being treated as an Outsider help with any other Monk abilities?

If you want to "fix" the class, you need to focus on what's broken rather than the couple of things that mostly work.

[Gandariel]

In my opinion, it would be just enough to:

-Full BAB (that's the obvious one)

-Let them enchant their fists (Or whatever, really. Is it too difficult to allow an already-weak class to enchant a glove as a weapon?)

-Allow flurry as a standard action / give them pounce

I know this wouldn't make the monk powerful of fix his various [...]
I'm not aiming for tier 3, i'm just saying these are three small things that could be done to make the Monk more playable

[Curmudgeon]

-Let them enchant their fists (Or whatever, really. Is it too difficult to allow an already-weak class to enchant a glove as a weapon?)
Why do you want some new house rule when there's already a standard item which does the job at an affordable price? :smallconfused: You don't even have to buy a book, because Wizards of the Coast printed it online. Look at the bottom of this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) page for the Necklace of Natural Attacks.

Plus it affects the Monk's entire unarmed attack, rather than just boosting punches but leaving kicks, elbows, and head butts unimproved.

[Man on Fire]

-Let them enchant their fists (Or whatever, really. Is it too difficult to allow an already-weak class to enchant a glove as a weapon?)

Magic Fang/Greater Magic Fang + Permamency.

And I think that good idea would be to make Monks psionics, I mean, they are inspired by the book where monk uses power of his mind to figt, it fits them and combining their abilities with psionics (Soulknife, Psionic Fist anyone) have been reported to bring beautiful results. Not to mention that psionic combo is the basis of Ultimate Monk optimized character build who can go at 20 level wizard and what determines victory is just who wins the initiative.

[Solaris]

I just gave 'em cleric spells with the paladin/ranger progression. Bard progression might work, too. Casting based off Wisdom. It works for my game.

[TuggyNE]

Magic Fang/Greater Magic Fang + Permamency.

This is significantly more vulnerable to dispelling than a proper magic weapon. Also, a straight +5 enhancement is vastly less valuable than certain combinations of special abilities (like holy or collision), which magic fang does not give you.

[eggs]

Bard progression might work, too. Casting based off Wisdom. It works for my game.
That's how my group's been doing it for a long time. It's gradually become more complex, with various unique mechanics and an increasingly formalized spell list, but the engine is basically Wis-based Bard spells from appropriate selections of the Cleric and Ranger lists. It works nicely enough for Monks to be reliably useful without anything breaking.

[olelia]

Why do you want some new house rule when there's already a standard item which does the job at an affordable price? :smallconfused: You don't even have to buy a book, because Wizards of the Coast printed it online. Look at the bottom of this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) page for the Necklace of Natural Attacks.

Plus it affects the Monk's entire unarmed attack, rather than just boosting punches but leaving kicks, elbows, and head butts unimproved.



Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species): The enhancement bonus on this necklace is applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality applied to this necklace also applies to those natural weapons. For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus as well as the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer's natural weapons.


How does that even work?! :smalleek::smalleek:

[eggs]

Messily. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

How does that even work?! :smalleek::smalleek:
It's magic. Only Wizards should look at those details; other, saner classes should avert their eyes.

[ThiagoMartell]

It's magic. Only Wizards should look at those details; other, saner classes should avert their eyes.

Did Curmudgeon make a joke? :smalleek:

[Curmudgeon]

Did Curmudgeon make a joke? :smalleek:
I'm sure that couldn't happen. Trust me; I'm what you call an expert. :smallcool:

[Hiro Protagonest]

How does that even work?! :smalleek::smalleek:

ROCKET PUNCH!

Alternatively:

Gomu Gomu No...

[Lateral]

How does that even work?! :smalleek::smalleek:
Gets more fun with Versatile Unarmed Strike and Fleshgrinding. Also Sizing, and Metalline. :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

Those classes all require you to read through dozens of pages of spells, powers, or maneuvers before you know what they do. I'm fine with the idea that you need that sort of effort to figure out how to deal with every problem under the sun, but if all you want to do is kill goblins and ogres and such, it shouldn't take that much research. Fighter-type characters are my go-to when I want a "beer and pretzels" game; basic tactical combat should form an easy baseline, from which magic and psionics and such offers the possibility of occasional deviation, not a complete negation of the basic paradigm.

@ Mattie P: I stand corrected! So the build I described in the OP is in fact completely RAW? Neat! I guess I got what I needed.

Yeah, I can see that. It's just when it comes down to it, every one of the pages you read to figure out how to play it, the better it probably is. Ex: Wizard. Go read every spell for them. Counterexample: Truenamer. Admittedly, I felt myself worse at gaming reading through that chapter.


Magic Fang/Greater Magic Fang + Permamency.

And I think that good idea would be to make Monks psionics, I mean, they are inspired by the book where monk uses power of his mind to figt, it fits them and combining their abilities with psionics (Soulknife, Psionic Fist anyone) have been reported to bring beautiful results.

Yeah, except the Tashalatora feat does this. It gives/allows level stacking a bunch of monk abilities to any Psionic class for only a few feats. Which is why you hear "The best monk isn't a monk a lot." The classes abilities aren't any good and can be easily replicated. Heck, a Monk's Belt, Snap Kick, and Superior unarmed turn any level 10 into a monk.

I personally dislike the class. It's bland, the fluff doesn't fit with most European fantasy stories I play in, and it's weak. I'd rather play a Fighter any day. How about some one fixes the monk by making it an ACF/Archetype for Fighter?

[willpell]

It's pretty much everything else that make the Monk a poor class. That is, it's got over a dozen different abilities that don't work together to accomplish anything in particular.

I admit, that panoply of abilities is the main thing that I dislike about the monk. Really, all I want is improved US damage, Flurry of Blows and Wisdom bonus to AC, so that the guy with no weapon and no armor is hitting just as hard and surviving just as long as the guy with a sword and scale mail. Everything else is superfluous to the Monk concept IMO, although turning into an Outsider is a neat capstone (what it actually does I'm not clear on offhand, I'd have to look at the MM for details, I just like it as a general concept).


Monks gain Purity of Body to make them immune to natural diseases and so can safely touch those with infections spread by contact, but they don't have Heal as a class skill to treat that disease.

Why would they need to treat it if they're immune to it?


If you want to "fix" the class, you need to focus on what's broken rather than the couple of things that mostly work.

I still don't see the lack of whatever you think they're missing as a problem.


Yeah, I can see that. It's just when it comes down to it, every one of the pages you read to figure out how to play it, the better it probably is. Ex: Wizard. Go read every spell for them.

Too much work; I don't want that to be necessary. While 4E from what I've heard did many annoying things, one innovation I very much liked about it was the idea that a wizard gets a basic zap he can use at-will all day. I don't want to have to read fifty books worth of narrow one-off powers; I'd rather know three spells that are modular enough to be useful in every situation.


Yeah, except the Tashalatora feat does this. It gives/allows level stacking a bunch of monk abilities to any Psionic class for only a few feats.

I don't want psionics on my monk. If I want to play a psywar I'll play a psywar. The monk is something completely different, and I don't want to have to deal with powers or spells or maneuvers to play one.

[Mystral]

Is it mon(k)day again, already?

[willpell]

It occurs to me, they say in there that an unarmed strike is "never off-hand" for a Monk; what if one of the reasons the class is so weak is that the designers intended for it to come with what is essentially free Two-Weapon Fighting? So by default, the monk always punches twice at no penalty, and Flurry of Blows is a third punch at -2 to all punches? Certainly if that was an unspoken assumption on the designers' part which the public never got, it would explain the discrepancy.

[Mystral]

Nope, doesn't work that way. At least, there is no evidence supporting it that I'm aware of.

And even if it does work like that, if you hit for measly damage 4 or 5 times, i fail to see the difference.

[willpell]

1d6 is "measly" to you? Boy, I guess you don't mind it when people stick scimitars in your gut then, huh. Almost all the simple weapons do 1d6, and even martial ones generally only do 1d8 unless you fight two-handed. Generally when I've built a monk character I use two monk weapons, which also do 1d6 damage; maybe that's the entire reason monk weapons exist, so that you can get a second attack along with your unarmed strike using TWF (either the feat or the general rule), but on the other hand all of them except the siangham also give you trip or disarm.

[Mystral]

The problem is not the damage dice, the problem is that real damage does not come from the damage dice. It comes from power attack with 2-handed weapons or from precision damage like sneak attack, or possibly weapon enchantments.

You go up with your two weapons against a creature with even damage reduction 5 and you might as well sneeze at it.

[willpell]

Well yeah, damage reduction is a big deal. The vast majority of the creatures you encounter, at least at a low level, won't have any of it. Even DR 5/magic on a Karsite is worth a +2 level adjustment. Inability to bypass DR in no way means you aren't a holy terror to 99% of the world's population; it's just that at higher levels your adventures increasingly revolve around that last 1%.

[Curmudgeon]

The problem is not the damage dice, the problem is that real damage does not come from the damage dice.
That's just your assumption from other classes. For the Monk, the real damage will come from the damage dice ─ with a little help. At level 6 a Barbarian/Fighter will Power Attack for half with a greatsword and deal 2d6+6 damage (twice), a Rogue with a rapier and Craven will sneak attack for 1d6+3d6+6 damage (once) and an unarmed Monk with flurry of blows will do 4d6 damage (twice). That's 1d8 base unarmed damage, with 3 effective size boosts: 1 from Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), and 2 from a party spellcaster adding Greater Mighty Wallop. All three of these combatants end up being of roughly equal effectiveness.

[Gandariel]

You're not considering the actual attack bonus...
Also, a Raging barbarian will have at least 22 Str (18 + 4 Rage), so +9 damage on his attacks.

Monk only add Str, not 1.5 Str
Also, what Str does a monk have, since you also need Wis, Dex and Con?

[Curmudgeon]

You're not considering the actual attack bonus...
Also, a Raging barbarian will have at least 22 Str (18 + 4 Rage), so +9 damage on his attacks.
What makes you assume a Barbarian will have at least 18 Strength at level 6? Some games use the Elite array (15 maximum stat). If you roll you can't guarantee the dice will cooperate. Or you can use point buy and want to avoid paying premiums for stats so you'll start with 14s as your best numbers before racial adjustments. Also, a level 6 Barbarian can only rage twice a day.

Yes, I'm not using other considerations based on unknowns. That's intentional.

[eggs]

One of the other party members being a Wizard, having the spell known and being willing to blow one of its highest level spell slots seems a much more questionable assumption than the Barbarian starting with 15+ Strength and grabbing a [whatever] of Strength +2.

[Curmudgeon]

One of the other party members being a Wizard, having the spell known and being willing to blow one of its highest level spell slots seems a much more questionable assumption than the Barbarian starting with 15+ Strength and grabbing a [whatever] of Strength +2.
A Sorcerer will work just fine, too. And isn't it in the best interests of squishy spellcasters to have some melee support to keep them out of danger? There aren't a lot of other spells that provide long-lasting benefit (1 hour/level duration) for either the mage or anyone else in the party. There's Mage Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, and Phantom Steed; that's really about it for general-purpose spells except for Greater Mighty Wallop. (Stormwrack does have a bunch of ship- and sea-related long-duration spells.) Since the goal is party survival, asking for one daily buff spell isn't unreasonable.