DnD 3.5 Gestalt Duskblade

[Xaragos]

I was looking into the Duskblade class and thought it had some really neat options. Pretty obvious from the Duskblade Handbook that two handed weapons and some choice spells along with power attacking is a good thing. However, I recently joined a tabletop game that allows for gestalt. I have never played a Duskblade before but can see a number of interesting combinations with Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Swordsage, etc. Please provide some ideas for classes that provide the best synergy and the recommended spells and feats for those builds. In this game we are only allowed three classes total (To include a PrC).

[hushblade]

I'm a fan of wu jen for this. Nice gishy spells like giant size and body outside body.

[Amakule]

My favorite is Factotum. Skills, different spell pool every day, and it's more Int-based goodness. It's difficult to go wrong.
Wizard definitely brings toys to the Duskblade, including abjuratoin spells for the Abjurant Champion. A good route for a front-line caster.
Beguiler is nifty. While it doesn't add a whole lot to the Duskblade's main class feature, it does round it out in the spell department, as well as giving more skills and a good Ref save. They even have Advanced Learning.
Barbarian/Scout makes for a good charger/skirmisher, and Duskblade is the only way I know of to cast spells into a charge.
Swordsage is definitely a fun way to add diversity to a Duskblade.
If you just want to throw down magical damage, Warmage is an option.
Cleric provides plenty of touch spells and some extra survivability.

If there's any particular class you've wanted to try, but doesn't seem that good, gestalting it with a duskblade is sure to make it more playable while still letting both shine.

[Ernir]

Archivist. Don't look back.

[Bloodgruve]

^ Archivist

Harm + full attack.. 65+ to 130+ dmg per hit @ lvl 13 that keeps scaling... not to mention ALL the other divine spells. Grab Knowledge Devotion and go.

GL
Blood~

[docnessuno]

Archivist is imho the best option hands down:
- Access to an AMAZING spell list (despite the name, Arcane channeling is not limited to arcane spells)
- Access to DMM with PRCs
- Mostly SAD (Wis only for bonus spells, can switch that to STR with AeshKrau Illumian or to Int with the Academic Priest feat [Legedns of the twins 12])
- No arcane spell failure (despite the name, Armored mage is limited to duskblade casting)
- Great flavour reasons to pick up knowledge devotion

Edit:
Swordsaged twice :smallfurious:

[Randomguy]

I'd say that your top choices are Archivist, Wizard, Wu-Jen, Factotum and Beguiler.

Archivist gets you the cleric spell list but with int based casting, and you can channel divine spells, which clerics have a huge amount of, like harm and inflict X wounds. Remember that two casters can work together to scribe a scroll, so you don't need to meet a paladin with scribe scroll to get a paladin spell, you just need to get a paladin that's willing to spend a few hours scribing one with you.

If the DM lets you work together with an arcane caster to scribe an arcane spell on a divine scroll (making it uncastable except via use magic device, but it's perfect for archivists) then this invalidates Wizard and Wu Jen. (It's a bit iffy, but legal by RAW).

Wizards and Wu-Jen both add spells to channel and spells to make you better in melee.

Factotum and Beguiler both add skill points. Factotum gives you a bunch of extra abilities and beguiler gives you illusion and enchantment spells that you don't have. If you go this route, I'd recommend factotum, since most of it's abilities are passive, but most of a beguiler and duskblades abilities are active.

[Empedocles]

I'd actually say psychic warrior. He lets you buff yourself up, then duskblade drops megatons of damage.

Of course, if you just want the most optimization possible, archivist is probably the best choice. Wu jen might be third since it has so many buffing options.

[Azernak0]

I always thought that a Monk//Duskblade with Kung fu Genius would be kind of cool. Is it optimized? Hell no. But I always kind liked the idea of doing something like that. However, at that point, you might as well just do Enlightened Fist.

Wu Jen are pretty fun. They have a lot of buffs so you can turn yourself into a machine that just squashes stuff. As everyone has already said, Archivist is without a doubt the best option overall. Wizard is also a good option. Factotum probably gives you the most options overall, especially with being able to do everything.

I would stick away from anything that is going to make you any more MAD. Duskblades already need Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, and some Dexterity. Wouldn't want to add Wisdom or Charisma into the mix.

[Menteith]

UA Generic Spellcaster (Int) with Versatile Spellcaster is a strong option if allowed, as it lets you stay SAD, and cherry pick the best Touch spells ever for the Duskblade side of things. A lower power combination, but arguably a more interesting one, is Factotum --> Trapsmith --> Swiftblade 10/Duskblade 20 to laugh at the Action Economy.

[Xaragos]

These are all excellent ideas. I didn't even think to use WuJen or Arhivist. What races do you consider the best fits for one of these nifty combos?

[Azernak0]

Hard to beat Human. Free feat, better skills, overall it is the best class in the game. If you are willing to lower your intelligence, a Water Orc adds the most physical stats.

I say go Human.

[docnessuno]

Human or Illumian (I'd go human archivist and pick up Academic Priest)

[Metahuman1]

Just a suggestion I haven't seen yet, try out feat rouge or Crusaider.

Sure, neither actively helps MAD, but Crusader adds maneuvers that don't eat your action economy to get back and can help a lot with both mobility and damage output, not to mention between maneuvers, delayed Damage pool, bigger hit die and Furious Counter strike your survivability goes up a lot.

Or, alternatively, Feat rouge gives you all the bonus feats of the fighter, a good reflex save, trap finding, lots of skill points, and greatly widens you options for class skills as well as giving you other useful defenses like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Passively buffing you up can be a great thing in a gestalt.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have always wanted to pull off a Duskblade // bard / chameleon / swiftblade. Do a little of everything. Put ranks in hide/move sci, a few social skills. Bardic knack will fill in for everything you don't have ranks in.

Now for race...

Human is always just the best, hands down.

[Essence_of_War]

I'd actually say psychic warrior. He lets you buff yourself up, then duskblade drops megatons of damage.


That seems like a...peculiar choice. Wis rather than Int synergy, overlapping saves, overlapping hit die, and a tiny PP pool.

I think Psion is a far better choice. Int synergy, the Duskblade covers the psions small hit die, you still get some bonus feats, but if you pick your discipline carefully (helloooo egoist!) you can pick up some great powers to buff yourself before combat.

Psychic Rogue might be a reasonable choice also.

[Morph Bark]

Arcane Swordsage.

*shot*

[docnessuno]

Arcane Swordsage.

*shot*

Be sure to have "protection from thrown books" ready

[deuxhero]

I have always wanted to pull off a Duskblade // bard / chameleon / swiftblade. Do a little of everything. Put ranks in hide/move sci, a few social skills. Bardic knack will fill in for everything you don't have ranks in.


Actually, Chameleon is a decent choice. Int based casting from ANY Arcane list (and Wisdom based divine casting from any list if you can afford the wisdom), though only up to 6th level, a floating bonus feat, a floating +2/+4 to an ability score, . Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Whatever 2 is solid.

[Kaje]

Dwarf Rogue 1 / Monk 1 / Duskblade 13 / Warblade 3 / Bloodstorm Blade 2 // Wizard 5 / Runesmith 1 / Enlightened Fist 7 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Wizard 2

Awesome gestalt duskblade build. Too bad about stupid houserules.

[Xaragos]

I have been sold on the Archivist/Duskblade combo. Some really great ideas here...thanks to all.

What would you recommend for stats with a 32 point build....Human as race. Any must haves for level one feats? I am thinking the Legend of the Twins Academic Priest for one.

X

[Randomguy]

Make sure you pick up Knowledge devotion at some point, if not at level 1.

[Fable Wright]

If it's not too late to throw around build ideas, Dread Necromancer gets a spell list full of Touch Attack spells that can be brutal. Harm, Avasculate via Advanced Learning, more Vampiric Touch spells, and potentially higher level spells than the Archivist via Versatile Spellcaster. Plus, your spell list is less reliant on getting cool non-cleric scrolls off the DM. Also, a Fear aura, a Familiar granting you Immunity to Mind-affecting from level 7, and free debuffs (including negative levels) on Charnel Touch attacks (of which you can use by just replacing your Greatsword for one iterive, still full attack channeling the spell), and having access to Magic Jar. It's something to think about, anyways.

[Bloodgruve]

For 32 point buy I'd run Str14, Dex14, Con14, Int16, Wis10, Cha10. Push up Int and Str when you can. Throw skills in knowledge's, concentration and spellcraft.

Look at Knowledge Devotion and take ranks in the six knowledge skills. Also take Collector of Stories skill trick, talk to your DM and make sure it works together with Know Devotion and Dark Knowledge.

I would also take Versatile Spellcaster because you won't get bonus spells from wisdom and you can use your DB to fuel the prayer book.

Get Mithral Plate as soon as you can after 4th level. Archivist is a divine caster but I'm not 100% sure that you don't get spell failure.

If you can get Alter Self you may want to look at +0LA Teifling so you can get the Outsider options like Dwarven Ancestor with +18 Natural AC :P

You'll have a good time with this :)

Blood~

[Metahuman1]

I'm gonna go with "What do you really want to do?"

I personally think Duskblade 13/ Psi-warrior 7// Either Crusader or Warblade/ and then add in some Psion and Totemist for the Incarnum Recharge Trick and pounce.

More survivability, more damage, more mobility. Not as optimized as some things, but solid none the less for doing a certain couple of things really well.

Get able learner and keep your knowledge skill checks up.

[Snowbluff]

Wizard3/Swiftblade9-10/Arcane Duelist X//Duskblade13/Stuff

Get some action economy in there! Give some bonuses on Int and make you good at melee. A good way to be a gish if you don't want to frak things up with fullcasting (which is very easily done in Gestalt).

You could also grab feats based on your non-magical melee abilities (power attack, tripping, EWP and a weapon style), and pick up casting features from your PrCs. You should be able to operate competitively in a dead magic zone this way.

[Joshinthemosh]

You know if for some reason your DM lets you apply Carmidine Monk from champions of valor to Swordsage you are in buisness. At 3rd level you get your int mod to AC in light armor. Add a good Dex and you are nigh unhittable. And your get stances. Oh island of blades is so awesome when you can.channel into it. And suddenly you have enough skills to beat the rogue.

[hex0]

Rainbow Warsnake//Duskblade is nice too. Also, I'd like to throw Trickster Spellthief out there as well. :smallbiggrin:

[Xaragos]

Is there any way to get Haste into spells know with the Duskblade/Archivist concept....or would that only come from a different choice for a base class? I like the swiftblade prc but the prereq of the haste spell and the lack of that in the Duskblade list kind of messes that up.


EDIT: I was doing some out of the box thinking on this. As an archivist, can't you select a spell off a cleric's domain? IE take Haste off the Time domain?

[Tvtyrant]

I would suggest Factotum and invest heavily in Font of Inspiration. Now you could use several standard actions a turn during combat, get to pick some choice spells for utility, and are good at everything.

[Randomguy]

You could take Arcane Disciple for a domain that grants haste, like the Time domain, but you wouldn't be able to cast it until level 9, since that's when duskblades get 3rd level spells.

[Talionis]

Elf - 10 Warblades 10 Eternal Blade // 13 Duskblade

But I think Ordained Champion makes for a slightly better use of channeling and Manuevers.

[Keld Denar]

Haste is on the Celerity domain lists, so...yea, you can learn it as a Dusk/Archivist. It is 4th level, IIRC, though, so there is that. But it IS available.

[Snowbluff]

Haste is on the Celerity domain lists, so...yea, you can learn it as a Dusk/Archivist. It is 4th level, IIRC, though, so there is that. But it IS available.

It's a first level Trapmaster spell, IIRC.

[Randomguy]

You could take Arcane Disciple for a domain that grants haste, like the Time domain, but you wouldn't be able to cast it until level 9, since that's when duskblades get 3rd level spells.

*facepalm*. Or you could just get it from a scroll scribed by a cleric with the time domain and not bother wasting a feat. I can't believe I missed that. And it's 3rd level on the Time Domain, so you don't need to get it as 4th level on the Celerity domain.

[Xaragos]

Ahaa, that is money! Time Domain. That allows for a perfect addition of Haste to the collection. Its too bad that Spellforge (at least the version I have) does not really account for the totality of spells you can have.

Also good suggestions with Rainbow servant, spellsword, warblade and the like. There are a lot of good combinations here. These choices will definitely help if the DM has any issues with my first proposal! Thank you all, and if you can think of anything else please let me know. Character creation can be so much fun :)

[JohnDaBarr]

Can the Duskblade channel spells from other classes if they are not on his spell list? If that is true then you can unlock some nice stuff with the wizard, all those touch spells you normally can not channel because the limited spell list.

[animewatcha]

You can channel any melee touch spell ( actual range or enlightened fist shenanigans ) that you can cast. Not limited by class or arcane/divine type. You can arcane channel http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm to give to all your party members. Or heck, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm

[Xaragos]

Ok so here is what I have worked on thusfar. (Would have loved to go with Dread Necro but no evil PCs in this campaign) Please feel free to comment on

Race: Human

Stats:

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 18 (After bumps both at level 4 and 8)
Wis 10
Cha 10

Traits:

Absent Minded
Aggressive

Flaws:

Vulnerable

Skill Tricks:

Collector of Stories

Feats:

Academic Priest
Dodge
Mobility
Power Attack
Knowledge Devotion
Practiced Spellcaster (Duskblade)

Gained from classes:
Combat Casting
Scribe Scroll
Spring Attack

Skill Ranks:

Concentration 14
Diplomacy 5
GI 5
K Arcana 14
K A&E 1
K Dung 14
K Geo 1
K Hist 1
K Local 1
K Nat 2
K Nob 1
K Rel 14
K Plan 14
Sk Tri 2 (to get 1)
SpCr 14
Tmbl 5

Classes:

1 Duskblade/Archivist
2 Duskblade/Archivist
3 Duskblade/Archivist
4 Duskblade/Archivist
5 Duskblade/Archivist
6 Swiftblade/Archivist
7 Swiftblade/Archivist
8 Swiftblade/Archivist
9 Swiftblade/Archivist
10 Swiftblade/Archivist
11 Swiftblade/Archivist

Access to Swiftblade comes from Time Domain Haste Spell

Looking for comments on the progress so far and any ideas. I will also be posting spell ideas as well. One thing that concerned me was whether or not it was more favorable to max out Swiftblade for the level 10 Innervated Speed or is it more important to do a minor dip into Swiftblade and get the full attack ability from Duskblade earlier?

Once I have the classes down then the fun part will be targeting the right spells :)

[hex0]

But you need Duskblade 13 for full attack channeling...This is like...mandatory. :smallamused:

[Fable Wright]

Ok so here is what I have worked on thusfar. (Would have loved to go with Dread Necro but no evil PCs in this campaign) Please feel free to comment on

Race: Human

Stats:

-snip-

Access to Swiftblade comes from Time Domain Haste Spell

Looking for comments on the progress so far and any ideas. I will also be posting spell ideas as well. One thing that concerned me was whether or not it was more favorable to max out Swiftblade for the level 10 Innervated Speed or is it more important to do a minor dip into Swiftblade and get the full attack ability from Duskblade earlier?

Once I have the classes down then the fun part will be targeting the right spells :)

Dread Necromancers actually don't have to be Evil- they just have to be nongood when they start taking the class. They can be Neutral, and they never actually suffer any penalties from becoming Good.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd go with warblade. You need the same stats as duskblade. Could also try ranger for free twf instead of 2h.

[Xaragos]

Dread Necromancers actually don't have to be Evil- they just have to be nongood when they start taking the class. They can be Neutral, and they never actually suffer any penalties from becoming Good.

I didn't know that. I will have to keep that in mind and check with the DM.

[Xaragos]

But you need Duskblade 13 for full attack channeling...This is like...mandatory. :smallamused:

That is the big question I have with my current build. As I see it I have three basica options without completely changing this concept.

1) Full swiftblade on the duskblade side of gestalt to get the level 10 timestop and all the other nifty abilities that swiftblade had relatively early. This enables me to level up Archivist on the other side of gestalt and gain access to level 9 spells.

2) I could swap and do Swiftblade on the Archivist side, sacrificing getting high level divine spells, but being able to get both full attack channel and the benefits of SWB.

3)I also considered going 13 Duskblade and Swiftblade 7/Archivist 20.

What do you think?

*Note I will have to look into Warblade. Not too familiar with the class, and yes Psionics are out :(*

[Xaragos]

But you need Duskblade 13 for full attack channeling...This is like...mandatory. :smallamused:

That is the big question I have with my current build. As I see it I have three basic options without completely changing this concept.

1) Full swiftblade on the duskblade side of gestalt to get the level 10 timestop and all the other nifty abilities that swiftblade had relatively early. This enables me to level up Archivist on the other side of gestalt and gain access to level 9 spells.

2) I could swap and do Swiftblade on the Archivist side, sacrificing getting high level divine spells, but being able to get both full attack channel and the benefits of SWB.

3)I also considered going 13 Duskblade and Swiftblade 7/Archivist 20.

What do you think?

*Note I will have to look into Warblade. Not too familiar with the class, and yes Psionics are out :(*

[Xaragos]

I did think about Factotum instead of Archivist....and getting knowledge devotion, etc. The biggest drawback to that was the lack of spell selection available to channel.

On that note though, as you have a good point on the factotum's extra standard actions. How does that function when doing a full attack (in order to take advantage of the full attack option of Duskblade at level 13 to channel spells)? Can you do multiple full attacks if you add lets say...2 standard actions to your turn?

[hex0]

How does that function when doing a full attack (in order to take advantage of the full attack option of Duskblade at level 13 to channel spells)? Can you do multiple full attacks if you add lets say...2 standard actions to your turn?

99% sure you can't. Although you could use it to make a standard attack, which would still be channeling the spell you were attacking with. The channeled spell lasts till the end of the round.

Or at high level you could full attack channel attack in melee, take a 5 foot step, Quick Cast Disintegrate, use Font and blast another Disintegrate. Yesh. Going nova, much?

[LTwerewolf]

I did think about Factotum instead of Archivist....and getting knowledge devotion, etc. The biggest drawback to that was the lack of spell selection available to channel.

On that note though, as you have a good point on the factotum's extra standard actions. How does that function when doing a full attack (in order to take advantage of the full attack option of Duskblade at level 13 to channel spells)? Can you do multiple full attacks if you add lets say...2 standard actions to your turn?

No, you need a belt of battle to grant yourself another full action, and additional standard would only be enough for 1 attack or 1 spell.



99% sure you can't. Although you could use it to make a standard attack, which would still be channeling the spell you were attacking with. The channeled spell lasts till the end of the round.

Or at high level you could full attack channel attack in melee, take a 5 foot step, Quick Cast Disintegrate, use Font and blast another Disintegrate. Yesh. Going nova, much?

He's got archivist, why not have him cast flesh to salt instead?

[hex0]

He's got archivist, why not have him cast flesh to salt instead?

I like this idea a LOT more! :smallcool:

There is also the idea of getting Spellwarp Sniper and Enlightened Fist in there to channel rays into touch attacks... :smallamused:

[Psyren]

I'd actually say psychic warrior. He lets you buff yourself up, then duskblade drops megatons of damage.

Psion is better if you go this route; Int synergy and better powers.

But I agree that Archivist is the most powerful option here, while Factotum may well be the coolest. Action economy is less of a concern since the player will be full-attack-casting pretty soon.

[hex0]

Action economy is less of a concern since the player will be full-attack-casting pretty soon.

Though you can also use cunning surge to pounce as well, among other things.

[Xaragos]

Psion is better if you go this route; Int synergy and better powers.

But I agree that Archivist is the most powerful option here, while Factotum may well be the coolest. Action economy is less of a concern since the player will be full-attack-casting pretty soon.

I wish Psionics was an option here as well. Thats a no no with the DM.

So would you recommend getting Duskblade 13 first for full attack casting before dipping into Swiftblade? Or would you recommend another PRC altogether?

[hex0]

I wish Psionics was an option here as well. Thats a no no with the DM.

So would you recommend getting Duskblade 13 first for full attack casting before dipping into Swiftblade? Or would you recommend another PRC altogether?

I'm not too familiar with Archivist, when could they caste haste?

You could do something like:

Spellthief 5/Duskblade 5
Trapsmith 1/Duskblade 1
Swiftblade 7/Duskblade 7
etc.

This is my general SwiftDuskblade build. Play a Neraph (to auto-steal spells) and take Master Spellthief (for amazing caster level).

Edit: okay, looked up Archivist. If you can get Haste at level 5, I would do:

Archivist 5/Duskblade 5
Swiftblade 8/Duskblade 8
Swiftblade 2/Archivist 2
Abjurant Champion 5/Archivist 5 (or whatever)