Can Someone Please Explain Arcane Swordsage?

[Empedocles]

What is the arcane swordsage? I get that it's in the ToB under the swordsage's adaptation page, but what can it actually do? Why is it so broken? How on earth does it use spells like maneuvers? How can it be so broken without even a spell list?

So yeah. I need the arcane swordsage explained to me. And I have googled it on several occasions, found almost nothing.

[ThiagoMartell]

Arcane Swordsage, as everything in adaption sections, is not a class variant. It's a suggestion for a houserule. As such, it's incomplete and unplayable.

[Flickerdart]

Arcane Swordsage basically amounts to "so here is a neat thing you can work out with your DM". Since almost all versions of "you can now use spells essentially at will" are ridiculously broken, without hardcore DM consultation it should never be considered as an actual option for anything.

Also, the whole "Heroics -> Martial Study -> get any spell you want" thing.

[eggs]

Adaptation blurbs aren't variants. They're big arrows pointing at things the designers think would be cool for somebody else to make. The Unarmed Swordsage is relatively acceptable, since it doesn't do anything powerful and there's not much to it.

But Arcane Swordsage falls into the same category as Psionic Abjurant Champion - there are lots of ways somebody could make it work, at varying degrees of sanity/balance.

[Rethmar]

Yeah, I think he understands that though.

It seems like he's seeing if anyone has tried it or statted it out before.

[Empedocles]

Yeah, I think he understands that though.

It seems like he's seeing if anyone has tried it or statted it out before.

Yeah I know there's not official class, and I guess it'd be nice to know if anyone has statted it out.

Also, I've seen it referred to in a lot of places, usually in the context of "I'll play an arcane swordsage...so I can get shot" which makes me think there's a more or less standard ruleset for it.

[eggs]

If the plan is to hash out a way of using it, I'd think the most workable way of using it would be to start by splitting its spell selections between strikes, stances, counters and boosts, then to implement the effects under existing rules. The one thing I'd want to avoid if implementing the rules is any effect with a duration of over one round.

The strikes would consist of instantaneous-duration combat effects. I'd prefer to require targeted spells and spells which require attack rolls to use melee channeling to deliver - essentially limiting their range and reliability, even if the resulting damage gets a slight boost.

Counters and boosts could most easily be implemented as the spells that follow their templates already (eg. Permeable Form or Swift Haste), but other spell effects could be fitted into that template easily enough (eg. Shield or Protection from X as 1-round counters, or Fist of Stone as a 1-round boost).

Longer or weaker buffs could be translated into stances, and follow the associated mechanics. Ebon Eyes or Girallon's Blessing might be appropriate for stances.

Without analyzing anything deeply, I want to say that "minute/level" and shorter buffs would fit better as counters (the specifically defensive options) and boosts (all others), and that "10 minute/level" and longer buffs would fit better as stances.

And in keeping the same mechanics as the default, metamagic would get the boot.

I *think* the result would have more staying power than a traditional gish, but a greatly reduced ability to stack buffs and effects at any given time. And despite casting all day, I *think* it would have less brute force as an offensive caster, due to metamagic limits and melee attack requirements.

Naturally, it would take heavy DM oversight to stop any outright abuse.

[killianh]

I've seen it built and I've gotta say it's actually not all that much more powerful than a sorc.

Your health changes to d6s when you use the adaptation and lose light armour proficiency. Next you can only use abjurantion, evocation, and transmutation with a preference in only touch and personal spells (as per the suggestion in the adaptation). Otherwise the same progression as a swordsage in everything else.

The reason this is considered broken is because you end up with all of your spells at the beginning of each encounter, and can regain a spell with a full round action (as per swordsage regaining manoeuvres). Another reason is you initiator level goes up by .5 for every other class level you have, unlike normal casters. with that you could enter a PrC that grants caster progression (which would apply because you cast spells) but at 1.5 increase per level rather than 1. So a ten level casting progression PrC would actually grant 15 levels meaning you would have 20th level casting abilities at level 15 (5 SS\10 PrC).

In truth though if a DM rules that that doesn't apply, then the class is weaker and more limited than a Sorcerer. a sword sage can only know 25 spells and can only use 12, limited to the schools listed above. In reality of play, it just using it would really just mean you have a sorcerer that doesn't have to worry too much about endurance runs and running out of spells. For a standard 4 encounters a day kind of play method that most of the rules were designed around A sorcerer won't really run out either. Basically if you build a sorcerer with the same restrictions that the Arcane Sword Sage has (Which I just love calling the A S S) you'll end up a better version, with a little less hp and defence.

The stat you use for casting isn't listed, but I would assume that you would use wisdom in keeping with the rest of the class. Hope that helps

[eggs]

As for why it's broken, leaving aside any but the most direct implications of the adaptation, if spell durations aren't capped, unlimited spells is effectively free Persist (minus all Persist's normal limitations), as well as guaranteed high-level spell slots in the beginnings of each fight.

[Answerer]

It seems like he's seeing if anyone has tried it or statted it out before.
Several people have statted it out; I've even seen homebrew Arcane Swordsages that were underpowered (e.g. trade Desert Wind and Shadow Hand for one discipline of pre-chosen spells-to-cast-as-maneuvers, most of which are just blasting).

[killianh]

As for why it's broken, leaving aside any but the most direct implications of the adaptation, if spell durations aren't capped, unlimited spells is effectively free Persist (minus all Persist's normal limitations), as well as guaranteed high-level spell slots in the beginnings of each fight.

Moreover than this you can take a full round action to regain all of you spells during a time stop, meaning infinite time stop, infinite meteor swarm for nuking everything, and everything else as many times as you want.

On the side of that though if you don't play it cheesy like that, play it only up until say level 10 or 15, or you don't face 5+ encounters per in game day; the versatility of a regular sorcerer would still be better IMHO. Like most things on the boards here or alt stuff put out by WotC its not really broken unless you play it broken or take it to level 18+. I would encourage you to try the class build out and see for yourself versus another spontaneous caster

[ThiagoMartell]

I think someone tried one once in an Iron Chef competition. It got very bad scores.

[Empedocles]

I think someone tried one once in an Iron Chef competition. It got very bad scores.

What rules did they use for it? :smallconfused:

[ThiagoMartell]

What rules did they use for it? :smallconfused:

They didn't specify, which is part of the reason of said bad scores.

[kharmakazy]

I've played an arcane swordsage twice. It relies heavily on communication with your DM and a measure of self control.

The only hard rules listed are d6 hd instead of d8, no armor proficiency.

I did it as follows: Take spells of the same level as maneuvers. They are all supernatural. We didn't bother with the school limitations, or even arcane spells really.

My first character was earth themed, and most of my spells were earth oriented. Every spell was run past DM before selection for approval, with the assumption that if it later proved to be broken I would exchange it for another approved spell.

Spells with saves were generally not selected. Why? No casting modifier. DC for spells was 10+level of spell. This helps to balance out the ability to cast spells over and over.

I found that often I preferred to take a maneuver instead of a spell actually.

What to do about stances? I took stances as normal.

my spell list wound up looking something like this:
1st: shield, unseen servant, magic missile, Silent image, expeditious retreat
2nd: Mountain Stance, glitterdust, baleful transposition
3rd: blacklight, shrink item, Snake's Swiftness - mass
4th: Stone Shape

And I can't find my other levels of spells.

Due to low save DC's I tended to stick with utility spells. I was usefull to the party, but not overpowering.

The second time around I had a mix of manuevers and spells. I was sort of a gish multiclassed with warblade. I took weapon and armor augment invocations from the artificer list because they fit thematically and a couple of other arcane spells.

In general, don't take things that will break the game. Don't take invisibility. Take swif invisibility. (or the manuever version, which is better). For god's sake don't take polymorph.

[Slipperychicken]

It seems like the tendency for full BAB classes with casting is for that casting to only go up to 4th level, so that could be a starting point. Pretty much every class I've seen that gets spell levels higher than 4th has at most 3/4 BAB. Maybe find one of those "gish-in-a-can" classes and use that spell list?

[Douglas]

I've got a homebrewed version of it in my sig that I've gotten generally positive comments on, and that's even been used and suggested by others at least a few times that I've noticed.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It seems like the tendency for full BAB classes with casting is for that casting to only go up to 4th level, so that could be a starting point. Pretty much every class I've seen that gets spell levels higher than 4th has at most 3/4 BAB. Maybe find one of those "gish-in-a-can" classes and use that spell list?

Swordsage is 3/4 BAB.

[Psyren]

Arcane Swordsage, as everything in adaption sections, is not a class variant. It's a suggestion for a houserule. As such, it's incomplete and unplayable.

That isn't even remotely fair. Plenty of adaptations ARE complete and playable; We shouldn't let a few bad apples keep us from enjoying the wealth of alternative material out there in our splats.

[kharmakazy]

That isn't even remotely fair. Plenty of adaptations ARE complete and playable; We shouldn't let a few bad apples keep us from enjoying the wealth of alternative material out there in our splats.

In my opinion it IS complete and playable as printed. You can take arcane spells in place of manuevers. HD changes to d6 and lose armor proficiency. That's complete and playable. It's quite easily broken, but it is completely playable.