[PF] Dealing with enforcer + thug fear effects

[W3bDragon]

So I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne for my players. We're just at the beginning. They're second level and one of the players is inquistor 1/rogue(thug) 1. He's specialized in sap heading towards Sap Master. He has the Enforcer feat and the thug variant.

For those unfamiliar with how this works:
Enforcer says that whenever you land a hit with a melee weapon to deal non-lethal damage, you get a free action intimidate check against the target. If you succeed, the target is shaken for an amount of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

That's where the thug variant comes in. Anytime the character demoralizes an opponent using intimidate, the duration is increased by one, and if the duration is 4 rounds or more, the thug can exchange the whole shaken duration for 1 round of frightened.
The PC's intimidate skill is around 10.

The outcome of all of this is: PC attacks with sap, hits, rolls a 5 on his intimidate roll and intimidates damn near anything. He rolls 3 total damage, its bumped up to 4 through Thug and he frightens the target. PC readies an action to attack once the target comes back, rinse, repeat.

My issues are:

* The intimidation works even if the attacker and target don't share a language.

* It works on creatures of any intelligence score.

* Since its a skill check and not a saving throw, any bonuses against fear the target might have don't come into play.

* There are no guidelines on circumstance bonus or penalties for when the situation is in the target's favor.

So for example, the target could be a troll. Trolls are known to be fearless. The troll could be surrounded by 50 of his allies. The troll could have 100 HPs. The troll doesn't speak the target's language. The PC could be a half naked, nearly dead, tiny halfling armed with nothing but a sap. Yet, the troll gets hit for 3 points of damage, which he will regenerate in a moment, and starts fleeing.

It doesn't make sense. Its much closer in this regard to magical fear, which ignores the circumstances. Yet even magical fear allows the target a save, with all fear bonuses applied. The Enforcer/thug intimidate combo doesn't allow for any of that.

I don't want to rob my PC of his character's one trick and, so far, I let the intimidation work even when it didn't make sense to me, like for example when fighting an Otyugh that was doing very well against the PCs up to that point and had another Otyugh supporting it.

This is going to be a long campaign (hopefully) and I want to settle how this works between myself and the player. I told him of my concerns and he's open to any suggestions. We've done thorough RAW searches and its all legit as written.

I'm thinking of simply increasing the DC of the intimidate check when appropriate, but I'd rather have a codified rule that's known to the player so he knows beforehand if there will be any penalties or not.

If I don't find anything that seems fair, I'll just play it as is and live with it.

Any ideas?

[Acanous]

Firstly: This is Physical intimidation. You don't need a language.
Someone smacks you upside the head with a stick. Your Fight or Flight kicks in regardless if he speaks English or Polish.

Creatures *Immune* to fear cannot be intimidated. Those with a bonus against fear recieve that bonus to the DC of any intimidate check directed at them.

For example:

Stella the Mighty has a +2 bonus against Fear Effects from being a Fighter. She has 2 Hit Die and a Wisdom of 12.
The DC to intimidate Stella is 10+2(HD)+1(Wis)+2(Resistance to fear).
If your boy is still making his intimidate checks, they're intimidated. If he's got a feature that lets him trade that for better fear effects, let him. It actually does work like that.

As for the 100 trolls example, there's an episode of Dr. Who you need to see, with a speach given by the doctor that applies. Something like "Think of every black day you went against me, and let someone else try first".

Edit: When he gets a second attack, if it still applies, he can actually cause them to be Frightened with the first attack, and apply the 'Shaken" duration of the second attack to the frightened condition. (See "Stacking Fear Effects")

So there's actually a reason for someone to take two-weapon fighting. Nifty.

[Doorhandle]

I would suggest the quick fix of letting this come into play.

* Since its a skill check and not a saving throw, any bonuses against fear the target might have don't come into play.



And allowing simple bonuses such as the size bonus for being larger than the target, a bonus for an int of 6 or lower, and another for an int of 2-or-lower, as they're too dim to back-down. I would suggest adding the will of the target instead of just wisdom to the D.C as well, if it's a huge problem
[/S]

Remember that this IS his main mode-of-operation, and you can rule it off as head trama, so while you should make it more difficult,it should not be impossible unless the target is immume to fear.

Be aware he will probably stack other tricks on top of this, such as Dastardly finish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dastardly-finish-combat) and Sap adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat)/master. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat)
Blugonder might also make the list, allowing him to TWF or use a greatclub to achive same results with a 1.5 str bonus, but this seems unlikley

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

well, some things come to mind.

1.) equip enemies with ranged attacks, where his intimidating melee skills have no effect.

2.) equip enemies during ONE encounter with items that cause them to be immune to fear, or even better, under a researched spell that makes them immune. YOur player will be forced to use a different strategy this once, and may think twice in the future.

3.) If I'm not mistaken, any creature immune to non lethal damage (undead spring to mind) would render this tactic useless.

4.) He's a rogue, and rogue suck, especially in Pathfinder. Though more things can be sneak attacked, methods of gaining sneak attack have been limited. Alchemist can get rogue sneak attack progression +awesome class abilities. Bards can get Rogue Talents +awesome class abilities. Ranger's can get trapfinding +awesome class abilities.
Let him be a rogue that doesnt suck completely. Be glad he isnt using Knock Out Artist and Merciful pistols. Pretty much any class will outshine your rogue eventually regardless.

[W3bDragon]

Thanks for the suggestions. I've looked over the ideas and discussed it with the player. We agreed on this:

1. Not Easily Shaken: Targets of the intimidate skill apply any bonuses vs fear they may have to the DC of the intimidate check.

2. Too Dumb to Back Down: Creatures of 6 or less intelligence apply a +2 bonus to the DC of intimidate checks made against them. Creatures of 2 or less intelligence apply an additional +2 for a total of +4 bonus.

3. Courage in Numbers: If the target of the intimidate check is outnumbered by his opponents by 2 to 1 or more, he takes a -1 circumstance penalty on the check. This penalty increases by 1 for every additional multiplier by which the target is outnumbered, to a maximum of -3 when outnumbered 4 to 1 or more. If the target and his allies outnumber the attacker's party by 2 to 1 or more, the target receives a +1 circumstance bonus on the DC of the intimidate check. This bonus increases by 1 for every additional multiplier by which the attacker is outnumbered, to a maximum of +3 when outnumbered 4 to 1 or more.

An ally here is defined as:

* Someone that is expected to help the person in a fight.
* Is within sight or earshot.
* Can arrive to help the person in 2 rounds or less.

We'll playtest this for a few sessions and revisit it to adjust if necessary.

Thanks for the help folks.

[Chained Birds]

Antipaladin anyone? Immunity to Fear would shut him down entirely. Just forewarn of the Antipaladin or being hunted by some dark force so the player doesn't immediately call BS on the whole anti-character to his.

Oh, and make him undead so nonlethal damage does nothing. :smallamused:

[Zubrowka74]

1. Not Easily Shaken: ...

2. Too Dumb to Back Down: ...

3. Courage in Numbers: ...

All of this reminds me of the old Morale mechanics in 2e.

[Slipperychicken]

* The intimidation works even if the attacker and target don't share a language.

* It works on creatures of any intelligence score.

* Since its a skill check and not a saving throw, any bonuses against fear the target might have don't come into play.

* There are no guidelines on circumstance bonus or penalties for when the situation is in the target's favor.

So for example, the target could be a troll.

In 3.5 at least, Intimidate had bonuses and penalties for being larger/smaller than your target, so the Halfling would have a -8 for being two size categories smaller than the Troll. The Troll is also really tough, and has a lot of HD to show for it. So yes, scaring a Troll is a truly impressive feat for a Halfling.

You could model "strength in numbers" by pretending each member of the group was using Aid Another to resist the Intimidate.

IRL, Intimidation works just fine (possibly better) on dumb creatures. Try stomping your feet and shouting at a cat. Works like a charm. Birds, dogs, horses, elephants, etc. All those dumb animals can be scared, just like you or me. Anything loud or on fire can do the trick, too.

Nonintelligent beings like Undead or Constructs are fear-immune anyway, so those guys screw with him like they do with any Rogue or Enchanter.

As someone else said, your PC is whacking people with a stick. Violence is a universal language :smallamused:

[StreamOfTheSky]

So I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne for my players. We're just at the beginning. They're second level and one of the players is inquistor 1/rogue(thug) 1. He's specialized in sap heading towards Sap Master. He has the Enforcer feat and the thug variant.

So he's level 2 melee w/ a +0 BAB. Sounds powerful.


The outcome of all of this is: PC attacks with sap, hits, rolls a 5 on his intimidate roll and intimidates damn near anything. He rolls 3 total damage, its bumped up to 4 through Thug and he frightens the target. PC readies an action to attack once the target comes back, rinse, repeat.

That's all? He should at least wait till everyone's in melee with the monster so they all get AoOs when it runs away. Withdraw only makes one 5 ft square safe. if they're around and some have reach weapons, monster's getting AoO'd for sure.
Would a 18 str dude w/ a 2H weapon power attacking and just outright killing the foe in one hit be more palatable to you? How about a sorcerer pegging someone with color spray for stunning?


My issues are:

* The intimidation works even if the attacker and target don't share a language.

You don't need a language. The "language of fear" is universal. :)


* It works on creatures of any intelligence score.

I honestly don't know if PF changed or screwed it up from D&D 3.5, but fear should NOT work on mindless creatures (typically, ones w/ Int --, though some intelligent undead and constructs are also mindless). Intimidate is a mind-affecting (as is all forms of fear), fear ability. Being mindless or immune to fear or mind-affecting effects should make you immune to demoralization. Having a save bonus against such effects should apply to the intimidate DC.
Maybe that's not how it works in PF by RAW, I'm saying that's how it should work in my opinion.
But creatures that simply have low int should not be getting arbitrary bonuses. You can intimidate an animal. Have you never seen video of someone staring one down or the like? Fear is a very basic, primal instinct. Low int itself does nothing to immunize you against fear.


* Since its a skill check and not a saving throw, any bonuses against fear the target might have don't come into play.

See above.


* There are no guidelines on circumstance bonus or penalties for when the situation is in the target's favor.

The DM can always do a +2/-2 for circumstantial effects. It's up to his judgement, though it shouldn't be getting invoked all the time, nor ever used in much greater magnitude than the +2/-2.


So for example, the target could be a troll. Trolls are known to be fearless.

No they aren't. I see nothing about being fearless in their stat block.


The troll could be surrounded by 50 of his allies. The troll could have 100 HPs. The troll doesn't speak the target's language. The PC could be a half naked, nearly dead, tiny halfling armed with nothing but a sap. Yet, the troll gets hit for 3 points of damage, which he will regenerate in a moment, and starts fleeing.

If the halfling can kill him in an instant, what good are those 50 allies to his own personal survival?
If all that matters for fear is the actual threat level a foe poses, what's the point of intimidate at all? Clearly the best "intimidate check" is being an enlarged Orc Barbarian with a greataxe power attacking who dumped charisma (the ability reflecting one's talent for influencing others) to hades in return for maxed out strength. (Or if the foe is more savvy towards how the game is balanced, the best intimidate check is being a wizard.)


It doesn't make sense. Its much closer in this regard to magical fear, which ignores the circumstances. Yet even magical fear allows the target a save, with all fear bonuses applied. The Enforcer/thug intimidate combo doesn't allow for any of that.

You're doing a skill check instead of a save. And it has a ton of limitations compared to the magical variety. For one thing, he needed all this investment just to not make it some cruddy 1 round -2 to rolls dealie. For another, PF nerfed demoralizing to the point where it basically can't fear stack with nearly anything else, unlike magical fear.


I don't want to rob my PC of his character's one trick and, so far, I let the intimidation work even when it didn't make sense to me, like for example when fighting an Otyugh that was doing very well against the PCs up to that point and had another Otyugh supporting it.

Good. And what didn't make sense? Your PC is freakin' scary. The otyugh acknowledged this by being scared.


This is going to be a long campaign (hopefully) and I want to settle how this works between myself and the player. I told him of my concerns and he's open to any suggestions. We've done thorough RAW searches and its all legit as written.

I'm thinking of simply increasing the DC of the intimidate check when appropriate, but I'd rather have a codified rule that's known to the player so he knows beforehand if there will be any penalties or not.

If I don't find anything that seems fair, I'll just play it as is and live with it.

Any ideas?

I'd just treat it as a mind-affecting fear effect if it's not already, as mentioned above.

[grarrrg]

Antipaladin anyone? Immunity to Fear would shut him down entirely. Just forewarn of the Antipaladin or being hunted by some dark force so the player doesn't immediately call BS on the whole anti-character to his.

Oh, and make him undead so nonlethal damage does nothing. :smallamused:

Paladin yes.
ANTI-Paladin, no.
Antipaladins get Aura of Cowardice which turns "Immune to Fear" OFF, and adds a -4 penalty to their save.

[Chained Birds]

Paladin yes.
ANTI-Paladin, no.
Antipaladins get Aura of Cowardice which turns "Immune to Fear" OFF, and adds a -4 penalty to their save.

Ha, now that is something funny. An embodiment of fear can be scared away by a little halfling with a sap. :smallbiggrin:

[Keneth]

How I've dealt with it is:

1) The DC for Intimidate is 15 + HD + Will save + any bonuses against fear or mind-affecting effects. This makes it slightly more reasonable since skills are easy as hell to optimize.

2) Enforcer demoralizes in the same manner as a normal intimidate check. That means none of them damage = number of rounds shaken shenanigans. This makes it harder for a thug to automatically frighten everyone they whacked.

3) Heroism (standard edition) gives an additional +2 bonus on saves vs. fear (for a total of +4 due to the Will save increase).

No skill should ever be an automatic "I win" button in combat. They're supposed to provide some utility and be useful mostly outside of combat.

[Chained Birds]

No skill should ever be an automatic "I win" button in combat. They're supposed to provide some utility and be useful mostly outside of combat.

Except Diplomacy of course (Out of Combat / Potentially in Combat). :smalltongue:

[StreamOfTheSky]

1) The DC for Intimidate is 15 + HD + Will save + any bonuses against fear or mind-affecting effects. This makes it slightly more reasonable since skills are easy as hell to optimize.

Not everyone has Enforcer. Some people actually still use the intimidate skill's rules for the duration, where they need to win by 5 more for each additional round of effect. The base DC shouldn't be terribly high.



2) Enforcer demoralizes in the same manner as a normal intimidate check. That means none of them damage = number of rounds shaken shenanigans. This makes it harder for a thug to automatically frighten everyone they whacked.

So Enforcer isn't worth taking, got it. Doing nonlethal damage sucks and is terribly limiting in weapon choices (or costs even more feats to do). If Enforcer isn't getting the duration buff, may as well just use Cornugon Smash as soon as you have the 6 ranks. It just rewards you for doing something you probably would have anyway.



No skill should ever be an automatic "I win" button in combat. They're supposed to provide some utility and be useful mostly outside of combat.

This isn't just a skill. This is feat + class feature + inferior choice of weapon + skill, at a bare minimum. And that's wrong. Plenty of skills are very useful in combat. Heck, paizo liked concentration "auto-winning" spellcasters out of being threatened in melee so much they even gave it to them all for free w/o the need for skill point expenditure any more!

[Keneth]

Not everyone has Enforcer. Some people actually still use the intimidate skill's rules for the duration, where they need to win by 5 more for each additional round of effect. The base DC shouldn't be terribly high. Seriously?

Let's take your average lvl1 charisma-based character (Cha 18) with a rank in intimidate, and let's also say he's a half-orc because wants to be mean to people. That's 1 + 3 (trained) + 4 (charisma) + 2 (half-orc) = +10 with no other modifiers.

Now let's take a standard CR 1 monster such as a Gnoll. Actually no, let's make it a Faun since it's got good Will saves and more HD. At 3 HD and +5 Will save, that makes the DC to intimidate it equal to 15+3+5 = 23, meaning you have to roll a 13 to succeed on the roll. That's a 40% chance to intimidate a creature with 2 more HD than yourself and one that's highly resistant to mental attacks. And that's without any buffs or optimization whatsoever.

I'd say that's still pretty much in the favor of a player character. And I made this change not because my players kept intimidating my creatures — they can still do that consistently — but because I was scared to use intimidate against them. It's only fun and games until the GM hits you with the same cheesy attacks you've been using.


So Enforcer isn't worth taking, got it. Doing nonlethal damage sucks and is terribly limiting in weapon choices (or costs even more feats to do). If Enforcer isn't getting the duration buff, may as well just use Cornugon Smash as soon as you have the 6 ranks. It just rewards you for doing something you probably would have anyway. Enforcer is now very much like Cornugon Smash, yes, just triggers under a different condition and with the added bonus of potentially frightening on a crit. And no, it doesn't limit your weapon choices in the least. Anyone intent on using Enforcer is also gonna be using a Merciful weapon, likely one with a large crit range, I've never seen one who didn't.


This is feat + class feature + inferior choice of weapon + skill, at a bare minimum. And that's wrong. Plenty of skills are very useful in combat. Heck, paizo liked concentration "auto-winning" spellcasters out of being threatened in melee so much they even gave it to them all for free w/o the need for skill point expenditure any more! Paizo also made it plenty harder to succeed on a Concentration check, and due to the lack of need to invest into Concentration, every Sorcerer and their familiar is investing those skill points into Intimidate now. Taking a feat and a class feature still shouldn't be an auto-win button. If a wizard with spell focus (necromancy) casts Fear, you still have a half-decent chance of resisting it and only get shaken for a single round.

Yes, melee characters need nice things, but those nice things still need to be kept in check.