E3 mega thread.

[9mm]

It's E3 again. what's on your radar, what's not.

Also fail microsoft press confrence was FAIL.

[Wolf_Haley]

Waiting for more info on Metal Gear Revengance, that trailer from the pre-show got me all going. Sucks no Anarchy Reigns news will be at E3. Also curious if Capcom will announce a new Darkstalkers at E3 or not.

[Zevox]

From what I hear of Nintendo's pre-E3 online conference, it sounds like they're taking online capabilities much more seriously with the Wii U than they have with anything in the past, which is a good sign I'd say. I'm mostly waiting on their game announcements though - hopefully there will be some news on some of the 3DS games that we haven't heard much about since the system's announcement, like the new Paper Mario one. Or a NA release announcement for the latest Fire Emblem *fingers crossed*.

Looking over an article on what Microsoft had to talk about at their conference, nothing I care about there, which doesn't surprise me.

Zevox

[Tavar]

Also fail microsoft press confrence was FAIL.

Just wondering, what made it fail? Haven't looked into any news myself.

[Illieas]

Just wondering, what made it fail? Haven't looked into any news myself.

it was standard fare more Halo, more Gears, a on-rails fable, and sequels. also more products with only voice activated abilities via kinect.

the glut of it seemed that they were initializing the Xbox being the center of your entertainent needs they originally envisioned. so they announced the ability for you cell phone tablet computer to interface with the xbox. more channels of entertainment and music service.

I don't see what the fail was about. it wasn't surprising or great but it was hardly bad.

[TheLaughingMan]

it was standard fare more Halo, more Gears, a on-rails fable, and sequels. also more products with only voice activated abilities via kinect.

the glut of it seemed that they were initializing the Xbox being the center of your entertainent needs they originally envisioned. so they announced the ability for you cell phone tablet computer to interface with the xbox. more channels of entertainment and music service.

I don't see what the fail was about. it wasn't surprising or great but it was hardly bad.

It's pretty disappointing to see Nintendo go showboating their new console + lineup while Microsoft's only good contribution is a new Halo game.

Speaking of new lineup, any word on Pikmin 3?

[MCerberus]

it was standard fare more Halo, more Gears, a on-rails fable, and sequels. also more products with only voice activated abilities via kinect.

the glut of it seemed that they were initializing the Xbox being the center of your entertainent needs they originally envisioned. so they announced the ability for you cell phone tablet computer to interface with the xbox. more channels of entertainment and music service.

I don't see what the fail was about. it wasn't surprising or great but it was hardly bad.

The problem is that people using it as a gaming device are really not interested in using it as an expensive bad computer that can't do as much. Still a little bitterness after the whole 'we're hiking gold (needed to play online) rates to subsidize the kinect and espn video. Oh, and 1 vs 100 is never returning' thing.

[Illieas]

yes from a gamer prospective I can see microsoft being mediocre but I don't think we will have anything ground breaking from microsoft or sony this year and i think people are placing their anticipation way too high. It seem the market has switched into sequel mode and very few are willing to fund new franchises

with that being said man there are just way too many shooters this year.


okay EA press conference is over. sports games are getting another yearly release and social networking added on top. one new addition is UFC is now being a yearly franchise. new sim city. new star wars content. and more shooters and the crazy expansion pack for battle field 3.

I am dissapointed there was no dragon age 3 annoucement.:smallfrown:
I am also sad no mirror's edge 2 ( hey a man can dream).

now 6 PM EST Ubisoft conference and the hope that beyond good and evil can have its sequel (fat chance but again i can hope, also they teasered like 2 years ago and that broke my heart:smallfrown:)

[Suichimo]

Just so everyone knows ahead of time. There will be absolutely no, or very little 3DS news tomorrow. Nintendo is using their time to showcase the Wii U. So we'll see tons of games, demos, etc.

However.

On June 6th, Nintendo is having a "Software Showcase". This is going to be a 3DS exclusive event.

Two conferences. Two Hours. Two Systems. Nintendo is bringing it hard this year.

Bets that this will top 2010?


Speaking of new lineup, any word on Pikmin 3?

Earlier in the year, Miyamoto said that it would be at E3 this year.

[9mm]

it was standard fare more Halo, more Gears, a on-rails fable, and sequels. also more products with only voice activated abilities via kinect.

the glut of it seemed that they were initializing the Xbox being the center of your entertainent needs they originally envisioned. so they announced the ability for you cell phone tablet computer to interface with the xbox. more channels of entertainment and music service.

I don't see what the fail was about. it wasn't surprising or great but it was hardly bad.

I'll state it like Notch did: no one will pause their movies to look at interesting facts on their phone. As a tech idea, it's neat: but if that's there ideas on how it'll be used: microsoft be crazy. Simply put, I think Microsoft is going for a market that doesn't exist.

also lack of reaction to Ubi's start is hillarious to watch.

[Seerow]

I'm surprised at the lack of commentary on the concerts here.

Like Microsoft the biggest thing that stood out to me was I really got the feeling they just said "Okay we're out of things to say but have another 20 minutes booked... let's throw an Usher concert real quick"


And then Ubisoft opens up with another song and dance routine :smallsigh:

[9mm]

And then Ubisoft opens up with another song and dance routine :smallsigh:

I'm more distracted by mr. caffeine 2.0, where do they find these horribly annoying people?

[Jayngfet]

http://oi50.tinypic.com/2d0c3lf.jpg

Wow, this early and they're already planning out DLC. I mean one would assume if it's ready to go this soon they'd just make it a part of the game you buy to begin with.

[Dublock]

I am also sad no mirror's edge 2 ( hey a man can dream).

No, this is dreaming

Any chance of a Half Life 3 announcement?

Please? My money on top?

No....?*continues sad face*

[MCerberus]

We won't get BG&E2 this year, but what we can do is predict the game that Ubisoft underpromotes then uses to hold BG&E2 hostage.

Is there another Rayman launch this year?
edit- Well Ubisoft really layed the smack-down on my expectations. Where did Watch Dogs come from?

[littlebottom]

Microsofts conference i felt was weak, riding on the back of halo 4 really.

I had such high hopes for sony, but unfortunately a lot of what they offered us was toys we already had, but in a different shiny wrapping paper, by which i mean "More stuff about the move which no one cares about!" and "playstation mobile, announced last year, so its not new news at all except they made some kind of deal with htc" (which is horribly vague) although after its all said and done, they did keep saying the magic words of "exclusive" and "Free".

i really wish some more interesting new news would come up in these conferences, mainly from microsoft or sony since they are the more directly competing platforms.

what impressed me during it? the idea behind the sea battles in assassins creed, i think someone should take it and make it into a pirate sim! YARR! what else impressed me was the smoothness that the last of us showed with the little fights, i hope that its not all cinimatic, i like to play my games, but that said, even if it is, it was extremely smooth transitions from in and out of the little scuffles, if every games animations were this smooth in transition the world of gaming would be mighty more immersive.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Watch_Dogs!

I'm actually excited for something besides Dishnoured! Woo!
Glad to see a new IP. Especially one that's so... cyberpunk.

[Zevox]

Watch_Dogs!

I'm actually excited for something besides Dishnoured! Woo!
Glad to see a new IP. Especially one that's so... cyberpunk.
I'm surprised people are actually excited about that one. It just looked boring to me. Just super-spy stuff with generic characters that swear every second word.

Zevox

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm surprised people are actually excited about that one. It just looked boring to me. Just super-spy stuff with generic characters that swear every second word.

Zevox
Itemized reasons for my excite:

1) It's a new IP, and I'm programmed to be optimistic
2) Cyberpunk overtones
3) I didn't notice any particularly gratuitous swearing
4)Not enough information about characters was given for us to assume that they're generic
5) The "Bigger than the PC" conspiracy overtone at the end.
6) Likewise: Do we have character creation/customization tilt? For our Multi-player/single-player "Agent" that control switches to at the end?

So, yeah. Incautious optimism.

[Dumbledore lives]

Well Watch Dogs looks great to me, as does Assassin's Creed III. Both gameplay trailers were awesome, though Sony was kind of acting like it was there's during their conference. Overall I felt the Sony Conference was good for the first 45 minutes or so, then went kind of weird with their book thing, which took up way too much time. They ended on a high note though, with the Last of Us.

I'm actually considering buying a PS3 with maybe the Assassin's Creed bundle depending on price, something I've been considering for a while but a few games they've shown recently have kind of put me over the edge. Plus Blu-ray Harry Potters have all the extra content.

Real excited for Nintendo's tomorrow. Didn't like what I heard from Microsoft's conference, though I didn't actually watch it.

[deuxhero]

Personally I think the concept is great, being stuck with generic cover shooter combat mechanics though...

Come on Nintendo!

Baten Kaitos 3!
Eternal Darkness 2!
Shiggy's new IP!
Retro's new game!
Fire Emblem 13 US release!
Pikmin 3!
Star Fox!
F-Zero!
SSB4 info!

[Reverent-One]

I have eyes for one thing only at the moment...Giant robots that turn into cities (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1H_m8vPBC2U).

[Mando Knight]

Microsofts conference i felt was weak, riding on the back of halo 4 really.
Halo 4 was really the only thing that I'm interested in from Microsoft. Though, really, the game was already on my wishlist, and the trailer confirmed for me that the only way 343i could mess this up is to drop Grifball support.

the idea behind the sea battles in assassins creed, i think someone should take it and make it into a pirate sim! YARR!
Native American Ninja Pirate!

Personally I think the concept is great, being stuck with generic cover shooter combat mechanics though...

Come on Nintendo!

Baten Kaitos 3!
Eternal Darkness 2!
Shiggy's new IP!
Retro's new game!
Fire Emblem 13 US release!
Pikmin 3!
Star Fox!
F-Zero!
SSB4 info!
There's got to be something. Nintendo think they have enough material that they need to split it up into two press conferences...

...Also, wait. The nonspecific (http://media.nintendo-gamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/figure1.jpg) zombie game from the skit in the pre-E3 video is an actual game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPHPd1EP_c8)?! (Warning: Zombies vs UK. Not appropriate for audiences that dislike God Save the Queen playing in the background of a grisly montage.)

[Starwulf]

Did anyone catch a release date for "Beyond: Two Souls"? My wife watched it and was absolutely enraptured, I swear she didn't even blink, and this might be one of the few non-casual type games I may be able to get her to play :)

[Dumbledore lives]

Did anyone catch a release date for "Beyond: Two Souls"? My wife watched it and was absolutely enraptured, I swear she didn't even blink, and this might be one of the few non-casual type games I may be able to get her to play :)

I don't think their was one, it'll probably be 2013, but an actual date hasn't been announced yet. Also that was one of the games that makes we want a PS3, that and Heavy Rain amongst others.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Personally I think the concept is great, being stuck with generic cover shooter combat mechanics though...

Any better ideas than the industry standard?

[Scowling Dragon]

Call me a nintando fanboy but I have high hopes for the WiiU (My only hope is to get rid of the name. Its silly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFu7nKRwQMc&feature=watch_response))

I won't care if its graphics won't be up to par with the next generations. I have reached a point where I don't care about the polygon count.

I hope that the WiiU games will take advantage about the console.

Also I don't mind the button switch around on the controller. And if you are, Im sure that there will be third party mods.

[Zevox]

(My only hope is to get rid of the name. Its silly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFu7nKRwQMc&feature=watch_response))
Meh, it's not like we've had a good console name in some time. Not since the Dreamcast, at the very least.

Zevox

[Scowling Dragon]

Its just important they call it something else as that will help boost sales.

Nintendo had early problems selling the 3DS.

[Zevox]

Its just important they call it something else as that will help boost sales.

Nintendo had early problems selling the 3DS.
...and you're implying that was because of the name :smallconfused: ? Um, I don't see that in the least. More likely the high initial price point and the lack of any stand-out titles on the system for a long time was the culprit. I mean, the biggest launch title was a remake of Street Fighter 4, and fighting game fans tend not to be that interested in handheld versions of their games for a variety of reasons; and it took until Super Mario 3D Land's release two-thirds of a year later for the system to get a big-name non-remake game.

Zevox

[Scowling Dragon]

Oh sure, yes that was the majority of the problem.

But nintendo LITERALLY needed to add subtitles under the adds saying:

"This is not the Nintendo DS this is an entirely different console"

[Dumbledore lives]

I know I'm in the minority but I really like the WiiU name. It just works for me, just as the SNES is clearly a different console than the NES, so is the WiiU. The marketing has been fairly explicit on it being a new console, though it is true originally there was some confusion about the controller. Plus I like two preposition names.

[Lord Seth]

Its just important they call it something else as that will help boost sales.A lot of people thought Wii was a terrible name, and it did great.


Nintendo had early problems selling the 3DS.As Zevox said, that more likely had to do with its initially high price tag and weak game lineup.

[Scowling Dragon]

A lot of people thought Wii was a terrible name, and it did great.

That doesn't change the fact that the name sounds more like a bodily fluid.


As Zevox said, that more likely had to do with its initially high price tag and weak game lineup.

Im not saying it was entirely responsible for that. Just that it was partially responsible.

[MCerberus]

In the next gen I'm going to wait to see what 3rd-party games look like it. Hopefully it won't be a massive shovelware magnet like the current offerings.

[Rake21]

Two games have stood out to me, at least.

First off, "The Last of Us" is breath taking. Beutiful visuals, voice work, and animations, which is to be expected from the Uncharted team. What really caught me though, was the portrayal of the violence. Unlike Uncharted, it's not pretty or enjoyable to watch, and I doubt it'll be followed with a one -liner. It's utterly brutal. The reactions from the girl in the demo pretty much sell it. I'm really looking forward to it.

Secondly, "Assassin's Creed 3"... or 7 if you count the others. I was worried about the colonial setting eliminating the platforming opprotunities, but the development team made excellent use of the wilderness to fix that up. Also, I've seen some footage of town gameplay, and it looks like those areas will still be pretty big. Also, they've uped the interaction between the PC, the enemies (human and animal), and the environment, and I'm excited to see what kind of possibilites they've come up with.

[Volatar]

Super excited for the X-Com reboot. New trailer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9i6X5fgaCE)

[Scowling Dragon]

Super excited for the X-Com reboot. New trailer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9i6X5fgaCE)

I just hope they don't make the game too simple.

[Lord Seth]

That doesn't change the fact that the name sounds more like a bodily fluid.Or like "wee" as in small. But the fact remains its name clearly did not prevent it from being the bestselling console of its generation.
Im not saying it was entirely responsible for that. Just that it was partially responsible.And you state this based on...what? It seems to be conjecture on your part. At least the Wii got made fun of initially, even it the name clearly had no actual impact...I never saw people complain about the 3DS's name. The only thing you cite here is that some people were possibly confused about it being a new console or another iteration of the DS, and I'd say that really has little to do with the name and more to do with the fact that after the DS Lite, DSi, and DSi XL, people were automatically going to be a bit confused about that sort of thing.

[Scowling Dragon]

Eh whatever. I can continue the argument but its really not worth it. Who cares, lets leave with our opinions and a cyber-handshake.

[Zevox]

Well now, looks like we have our first new IP for the Wii U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mr4D4YZQ9uY). Looks extremely goofy, but potentially very fun. I'll be keeping my eye on that one.

Zevox

[Scowling Dragon]

Same here. Its by the creators of Bayonetta.

But it also satisfies my game wish list: Colorful but new.

[Volatar]

Well now, looks like we have our first new IP for the Wii U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mr4D4YZQ9uY). Looks extremely goofy, but potentially very fun. I'll be keeping my eye on that one.

Zevox

Wonder whats with the downvote brigade on that video. :smallconfused:

[Giggling Ghast]

I don't care for the look of the new Fable game, but I admit that partnering the it with Kinect might actually make it fun to play.

I quite like the look of this new Tomb Raider reboot, though. Very promising.

[Scowling Dragon]

Waaaaaah! We Want More Gray Drab Shooters! Nintendo Suxors Lols

[Erloas]

Or like "wee" as in small. But the fact remains its name clearly did not prevent it from being the bestselling console of its generation.
Just because it is still selling doesn't mean its not a stupid name. I have noticed a lot of people repeat the name because it doesn't seem to stick the first time.
Even a 6 year old usually spells it out as w-i-i rather then saying the name, which I realize some is part about learning to spell and part of it is to make sure people know what he is talking about.

Of course the Wii sales numbers have been dropping off a lot lately and the 360 is still slowly increasing in sales volume where it might end up outselling the Wii before its all said and done.


As an aside to that, it seems like the Wii U is going to repeat the biggest problems gamers had with the original Wii, in that their "next gen" console is just barely going to be an improvement from the previous generation's hardware. There are so many possible software advances that are going to be lost by not having the hardware capable of running it. While in a lot of cases those advancements aren't put to the best use, they are capable of having a large impact on how games can be played.

[TheLaughingMan]

Wonder whats with the downvote brigade on that video. :smallconfused:


WHERE ARE THE NEXT GEN GRAFIX I NEED TO SATIATE MY ADDICTION TO ULTRA-VIOLENCE AND YOU ARE SITTING THEIR MAKING GAMES FOR FIVE YEAR OLDS AND GRANDMAS, NINTENDO. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO STAVE OFF PRE-TEEN BLOODLUST WITH THIS CRAP YOU FAILED US AGAIN ROOOOAAAARRRRR

But yeah, looking forward to it. :smallsmile:

[Rake21]

Well now, looks like we have our first new IP for the Wii U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mr4D4YZQ9uY). Looks extremely goofy, but potentially very fun. I'll be keeping my eye on that one.

Zevox

So, it's a game where you play a superhero... whose power involves turning civilians into ladders, guns, and indestructable fists... and you use them to fight giant robots?

I'm gonna go ahead and say that this concept is utterly brilliant and insanely awesome, and the person who cam up with it deserves a raise.

[Scowling Dragon]

As an aside to that, it seems like the Wii U is going to repeat the biggest problems gamers had with the original Wii, in that their "next gen" console is just barely going to be an improvement from the previous generation's hardware. There are so many possible software advances that are going to be lost by not having the hardware capable of running it. While in a lot of cases those advancements aren't put to the best use, they are capable of having a large impact on how games can be played.

Hmm. True, but I need to see what the next Microsoft/ Sony toy can offer.

Because Im up for something fresh and new VS just a hardware upgrade.

Because WiiU reaches a Graphical point that I am comfortable with and wouldn't care at all if it was raised, seems to have options for both ordinary (And in a comfortable controler), touch screen, and motion control. And the current generations games haven't reached a tech ceiling yet. And nintendos always best at turning nothing into rocket powered birthday cake. Lets see how this goes.

It just looks like a playground for developers. At the then of the day, people can just whip out the standard controller and play it that way.

[Volatar]

Hmm. True, but I need to see what the next Microsoft/ Sony toy can offer.


Sadly we will have to wait at least another year before they get their acts together and we get to move to DX10/11 rather than continuing to stick with DX9, which came out TEN YEARS AGO.

[Erloas]

I'm wondering if the touch screen will be precise enough to function as anything more then a standard pointer device... because if its not then you don't really open up new types of gameplay that hasn't been available to a mouse for decades. Which I thought was the general problem with the Wii as well, the motion detection worked and it did offer something new but it wasn't precise enough to actually increase immersion. And to my mind it stayed a gimmick rather then a "real mechanic"* because the measure for success had to be really low due to the imprecision of the input.

*for lack of a better term to say what I'm trying to get at.


Sort of related to hardware power and game mechanics, and maybe it was out of E3, I'm not really sure, I read it on the PA report. That is the changed to Company of Heroes 2, and how they are using fog-of-war. The game is an RTS, but unlike normal LOS bubbles for units and seeing an area once you've cleared it you can only see what your units would be able to see. So your vision in misty areas will be a lot lower, in cities and forests you'll be able to see a lot less. It will make it a lot easier to set up ambushes and move without the enemy knowing what you are doing. It should increase the strategy to the game by quite a bit. Of course this takes a lot more processing power to figure out LOS for so many different elements at the same time.

[Scowling Dragon]

I'm wondering if the touch screen will be precise enough to function as anything more then a standard pointer device... because if its not then you don't really open up new types of gameplay that hasn't been available to a mouse for decades.

Completly true. And even if its only as powerful as a mouse, there are many things you can do with a mouse. Like I would find controlling an RTS much easier with a touch pad.


Sort of related to hardware power and game mechanics, and maybe it was out of E3, I'm not really sure, I read it on the PA report. That is the changed to Company of Heroes 2, and how they are using fog-of-war. The game is an RTS, but unlike normal LOS bubbles for units and seeing an area once you've cleared it you can only see what your units would be able to see. So your vision in misty areas will be a lot lower, in cities and forests you'll be able to see a lot less. It will make it a lot easier to set up ambushes and move without the enemy knowing what you are doing. It should increase the strategy to the game by quite a bit. Of course this takes a lot more processing power to figure out LOS for so many different elements at the same time.

Im not sure about how much more processing power that requires. My D&D maptool has adjustable on the fly Fog of war- and its a freaking mapmaking program.

[Erloas]

Im not sure about how much more processing power that requires. My D&D maptool has adjustable on the fly Fog of war- and its a freaking mapmaking program.
Changing LOS and adjustable fog-of-war isn't really that hard, its something thats done a lot right now. The difference is currently a program only uses a few at any given time. Given that this is an RTS you'll probably have several dozens of different LOS checks to perform in real time. They even mention in the article that its a balance between the fog-of-war system and system requirements.

[Triaxx]

RTS with a touch screen? Consider this. The enemy base has two routes in. Wiht a conventional RTS, you have to jump between two points to get everything co-ordinatined. With a touch screen, you can draw out a route for units to follow, then order both groups to 'Execute assigned orders'. And the two groups will move out on the routes drawn.

Being able to instantly jump to any point on the map just by tapping the screen? Yes please. I'm still waiting for an RTS that allows me to order a rolling barrage. Being able to drag an attack order from point A to B, and have the artillery fire land just before I arrive in range? Thank you much.

How about an interactive map on the controller? As you're playing through the latest Metroid game, you can pause, bring the map to your touch screen and rotate and zoom around to find where you are, and where you need to go to move on, without trying to squint at the screen to discern whether that's a door, or a dot for some completion item.

And how frustrating is it to try and get scans which are time only, in the middle of a heated fight? Having the pad act as a scanner in the hand might not sound too good, but having a friend grab the pad and get the scan for you, while you concentrate on smacking down the boss? Awesome.

[Dumbledore lives]

Well now, looks like we have our first new IP for the Wii U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mr4D4YZQ9uY). Looks extremely goofy, but potentially very fun. I'll be keeping my eye on that one.

Zevox

That game looks amazing, which really makes me wonder why they didn't show it off at the press conference. They started off strong with Pikmin 3 and a new 2-D Mario, then had some good 3DS games and third party, but it just kind of floundered after that, with no game really living up to what they started with.

I mean they didn't have a new Smash Bros, Kirby, Metroid: FUOM, Star Fox, or anything else like that. It was just kind of a disappointing ending, where something like Sony ended really strongly with the Last of Us, a thing people had been looking forward to the entire conference. A Smash Bros trailer would have made it great, unfortunately it floundered in mediocrity.

Edit: New Warioware games as well. Nintendo tell us about these things! The same thing happened to the Kirby game at lats E3. We love your games, just make them front and center, not Nintendoland.

[Zeful]

As an aside to that, it seems like the Wii U is going to repeat the biggest problems gamers had with the original Wii, in that their "next gen" console is just barely going to be an improvement from the previous generation's hardware. There are so many possible software advances that are going to be lost by not having the hardware capable of running it. While in a lot of cases those advancements aren't put to the best use, they are capable of having a large impact on how games can be played.

Like? I can't really think of any software advancements worth inflating the cost of producing the console for the better more expensive hardware.

[Zevox]

Wonder whats with the downvote brigade on that video. :smallconfused:
Youtube commenters.


As an aside to that, it seems like the Wii U is going to repeat the biggest problems gamers had with the original Wii, in that their "next gen" console is just barely going to be an improvement from the previous generation's hardware. There are so many possible software advances that are going to be lost by not having the hardware capable of running it. While in a lot of cases those advancements aren't put to the best use, they are capable of having a large impact on how games can be played.
The only aspect about that that I'd be at all concerned about is how it'll impact their third-party support. Most games these days are multi-platform, but if one console is notably harder to make a version of any given game for than the others due to requiring the developer to downgrade some aspect of it, it's not going to get many of those. That was almost certainly a big reason for the Wii's lack of third party support.


Completly true. And even if its only as powerful as a mouse, there are many things you can do with a mouse. Like I would find controlling an RTS much easier with a touch pad.
That was something that occurred to me not long after the Wii U's announcement last year. It could finally be the console that allows that genre to be done right on consoles.


That game looks amazing, which really makes me wonder why they didn't show it off at the press conference. They started off strong with Pikmin 3 and a new 2-D Mario, then had some good 3DS games and third party, but it just kind of floundered after that, with no game really living up to what they started with.

I mean they didn't have a new Smash Bros, Kirby, Metroid: FUOM, Star Fox, or anything else like that. It was just kind of a disappointing ending, where something like Sony ended really strongly with the Last of Us, a thing people had been looking forward to the entire conference. A Smash Bros trailer would have made it great, unfortunately it floundered in mediocrity.
There was no way we'd see anything of the next Smash Brothers this year. We were informed last year of the existence of plans to make a new one for the Wii U and 3DS, but also told that work had not started on it, and would not until Kid Icarus: Uprising was completed (since the developer that made Brawl was making that at the time). So that at most had actual work start on it just a few months ago - and that's assuming that the planning stages were done beforehand, as opposed to it simply being decided that that would be their next project.

Zevox

[Erloas]

Like? I can't really think of any software advancements worth inflating the cost of producing the console for the better more expensive hardware.

Multiplayer games with more then 8 players. Larger, more open world areas. Less loading between areas.
If you know what to look for you can actually see design decisions made to accommodate lower hardware power, such as high camera angles, or closed in areas where you can't see long distances. It shows up all over level design in fact, from the number of objects around, how many different paths are available in any given part of an area, fewer enemies. Effects like fog and water and especially lighting are very hardware dependent and they can make a huge difference on the look and feel of a game, its vital to building atmosphere. Unit count in games like RTSs make a huge difference in how the game is designed and that is also demanding on hardware.
I've also heard a lot of AIs in games are cut down a lot for performance reasons. The more enemy POVs the system has to work with the more detailed the AI can be but it takes a lot of power, enemy pathing is also computationally intensive. Limited resources for the AI is a big reason a lot of games have enemies that effectively cheat.

Its hard to say exactly why some specific games didn't make it to the Wii, I'm going to assume a lot of that was because it simply wasn't powerful enough to do it, as that is what a lot of developers said. And I just read Mass Effect and Batman Arkham City are both slated for the Wii U release which means they were not on the Wii due to lack of hardware power rather then some issue between the companies, and both have relatively low hardware requirements, they are fairly run-of-the-mill in terms of requirements in fact. So it wouldn't be unreasonable to infer that 5 years down the line the Wii U will also be that much behind the technology curve again if its starting out with very modest power for the point in time its being released at, similarly to the Wii. To the point where they once again won't have game support from many of the 3rd party developers.

Given at this point in time if the Wii U can match or beat the 360 and PS3 that means it has the power to run current games but everyone that plays computer games knows that the 360 and PS3 power is holding back a lot of game development compared to what would be possible on the computer if cross-platform development wasn't necessary.

[Todasmile]

Taking into consideration Nintendo's habit of replacing their consoles every 5 years or so, I don't think it really matters that in 5 years the Wii-U's going to be out of date. Heck, most computers are out of date faster than that.

If it really, truly becomes an issue, they might come out with some sort of peripheral or something, who knows. It wouldn't be the best idea, but it could possibly work out.

More likely they'd just make another console, though.

Anyways, I think the Wii-U's just fine. It's just as strong, if not stronger than the 360 and PS3, and it's going to be around for at least a year, probably more, before the next gen consoles for that line come out. It has an interesting controller idea, and it does have a lot of potential. Notably, most developers are already noticing the possibilities it gives for maps and inventories - those cumbersome and action stopping screen changes are being disposed of, which really does increase fluidity in a lot of games.

The Wii-U's going to do fine. The Wii was down in every category compared to the other consoles this gen, and still managed to come out on top. The new controller provides interesting new ways to play, ones that may not at first seem like such huge improvements. All in all, I'm more worried that the Wii-U ends up in every house but hardly played like the Wii is in mine than that it's not going to be a good console. Even though the showing of games so far isn't the best, there are definitely ones worth looking out for, and it is very impressive that games like Darksiders II and ME3 are going to be out on it. It shows that the console has a lot of possibilities in store for it.

All in all, I probably wouldn't get it at launch barring some neat pre-order bonus or great launch selection whatever, but I'd love to watch it like I did the 3DS and see where it goes.

[factotum]

If you know what to look for you can actually see design decisions made to accommodate lower hardware power, such as high camera angles, or closed in areas where you can't see long distances.

You can also see this in the design of modern FPS games--they make the gun in the view really, really big so it covers up more of the stuff behind it, which is generally harder to render than the gun is!

[Scowling Dragon]

Taking into consideration Nintendo's habit of replacing their consoles every 5 years or so

Its actually exactly 5 years on average. The Wii has a running time of 6 years.

The 360s Lifespan is 7 years and running.

The PS3s is also 6 years, and average lifespan of 6 years.

A nice thing when you think about it is that technically, since I can use all my Wiimotes and stuff for the WiiU Im saving roughly 80 bucks on controllers.

Edit:

Also saw the Video for watchdogs...... Really? Is this what gets people exited?

A bunch of shades and textures that you will not be paying attention too past the 5 minutes of gameplay? Whatever.

[Volatar]

Like? I can't really think of any software advancements worth inflating the cost of producing the console for the better more expensive hardware.

The XBox 360 and PS3 have a grand total of 512mb of RAM shared between system and graphics.

I'll let that sink in for a second. Look at your desktop/laptop RAM size. Don't forget to add your graphics card if you have one.

To run Windows 7 smoothly you need at least 2gb of system RAM. Most desktops these days ship with 8, and a graphics card that has 1 or 2gb to itself. You need this RAM for big textures and even bigger worlds.

And as I mentioned before, the XBox is stuck on DirectX 9, which came out in 2002. DirectX 10 came out in 2006, and while most people have a DirectX 10 (or even 11) capable OS and graphics card, it still is only used in a handful of games because publishers want crossplatform ports.

Just Cause 2 is an example of a game that actually uses DirectX 10 on the PC. It looks amazing, and runs great. Most games still can't top it. This is because they are stuck with the graphical framework and hardware of a decade ago.

And guess what: We can have all this new hardware for cheap. It's not cutting edge. Hasn't been for 5 years.

The current console generation is holding back gaming.

[Scowling Dragon]

So what does the new software offer? Outside of better Graphics

[Volatar]

So what does the new software offer? Outside of better Graphics

I was mostly focusing on the hardware benefits of more RAM, which are massive and affect every aspect of a game. From graphics to world size, animations to unit count, details to demolition.

Destructible environments are becoming a thing on PC. They are not possible on consoles without more RAM. And that's just one example.

On the software side, yes, DirectX is mostly graphics. It does provide input and sound as well, but those have not garnered much in the way of improvements in the last few years.

[Scowling Dragon]

Hmm. So destructible environments and animation (I think sprites already work pretty well).....For what games does that come in?

[Erloas]

Taking into consideration Nintendo's habit of replacing their consoles every 5 years or so, I don't think it really matters that in 5 years the Wii-U's going to be out of date. Heck, most computers are out of date faster than that.
Eh, a computer is only out of date after 5 years if it was really cheap in the first place. Given a lot of that has to do with the consoles, because if you bought a computer 5 years ago with the power of a PS3 (easy to do) it would still be as powerful as a PS3 and could run any game that was designed with cross-platform in mind, which is about 90% of them.

As for replacement frequency, lets give the Wii 6 years (which it will be when the Wii U releases) and about $300 cost is about $50 per year. The Xbox 360 will have roughly 8 years by the time it is replaced, at the same $50 per year thats a starting price of $400 for the same value for the consumer.

Of course the question of what happens with the Wii U depends on its actual specs compared to what the new Sony and Microsoft consoles can do and how quickly the game companies make that transition. I've heard varying rumors about the actual power of the Wii U and how it compares, so its hard to really say how its longevity will be.

Using Mass Effect as an example; the Wii was only 1 year old, still very young into its lifecycle, when ME was released and the Wii couldn't handle it. And looking at the list of games released in 2007 and 2008 about the only ones available on all 3 consoles were movie tie-in games and sports games, which was still very early into the Wii's lifecycle. How much of that was due to hardware specifically and how much had to do with the controller and licensing is hard to say. But I noticed quite a few Wii and PS2 cross-platform releases, and Xbox 360 and PS3 cross-platform releases or games that were on all 4 (ie the sport and movie games). So the relatively low power of the Wii seemed to have an impact on what games could be released on it very soon after its release.

[Jayngfet]

Waaaaaah! We Want More Gray Drab Shooters! Nintendo Suxors Lols

Don't even joke about that. We've got Battlefield 3, Two Black Ops games, a new Halo, and a new Medal of Honor all here and this is just what we know of.

Speaking of is it just me or does Black Ops 2 seem kind of insulting. I mean they literally stick big "USE THIS" Signs over important items, negate enemy use of cover, have your mounted weapons auto lock onto six different enemies at once, and have incredibly linear air combat that also auto-locks, and to kick it all off a lot of this displays who's good and who's bad in big shiny color coded lights. I mean who could actually LOSE this game? I mean Black ops players have a certain reputation about them but really you can't not be insulted by a game that doesn't even pretend it's not holding your hand.

Anyway, gotta say Ubisoft, Sony, and Nintendo were my top picks this year. I'm actually tempted to pick up a Vita or 3DS now, but only slightly since the whole touch screen thing always felt kind of needless when you have buttons and analogue sticks.

Sony

The Harry Potter thing looks kind of meh, and I can't get excited for a god of war game that looks so repetitive, but Assasins Creed seems to be picking up and at least switching things around to keep fresh. Last of Us seems like exactly the kind of gritty fight-for-survival thing needed to counteract the over the top tough guy badass vibe that's gotten out of control with a lot of the other games. The integration of old PS1 games into the PSP library is a long needed move but one that's much appreciated.


Nintendo

Nintendo is mixing it up with Pokemon and honestly it feels like something that's desperately needed to keep the experience Fresh beyond slight graphics updates and a roster expansion. It seems like it's all sound in theory, but I just can't get over how clunky and overpacked with features the interface of the U and 3DS are. I mean seriously look at the Wii u controller, it's so overloaded with stuff you're garunteed after the novelty wears off you won't actually USE half the buttons with regularity on any given game.


Microsoft

Microsoft felt like it went on for a while talking about nothing. I mean the idea of integrating all that media is nice and all, but seriously unloading that much of it that fast was kind of overwhelming for one subject. That much sports integration is kind of too much and not focusing on anything besides sports and a couple of shooters. Halo 4 is trying to mix it but I don't like how the new enemies apparently disintegrate on death and are all skeletal looking down to mostly human skulls.


EA

EA was on full damage control this year and there's no denying it. I mean with their TOR subscriptions and stock numbers dropping like a stone in the ocean it's to be expected but seriously look at the guy presenting and how much he was sweating. I mean they were defending their piecemeal approach to gaming and DLC but really who in their right minds is going to throw that much money at EA for early access to content that's already going to be done well in advance and a year long subscription when their online prescience has been so tarnished recently?

TOR going free to play til level 15 is unsurprising given the circumstances and the additions will have me jump back on when I find the time if it's free but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of the problems people have with TOR at it's core are problems that are inherent to the game itself and how it treats the things the player has done. I'm a big fan of the whole Legacy thing though, and even if they've done a lot of creative "restructuring" they said they wouldn't and are playing catchup in a lot of respects, it seems like they've done well enough with keeping promised new content coming.

Their sports lineup seems cool-ish, but at this point it feels like EA sports should back up EA's promises and update every few months instead of coming out with a new full price title every year.

The best I can say is ...well, at least they have lots of games. I mean yeah, they stuck Angry Birds in the same show as Battlefield and Tor, but at least they had their bases covered. I don't really feel that a big venue like E3 is the best place to devote that much time to little facebook games but if that's what EA wants then I guess that's what they're gonna do.



Ubisoft


They're really going all out with Assasins Creed. It looks like at least story wise this thing is going in cool new directions and it's going to keep me interested, possibly more than 1 and 2 did. Splinter Cell looks like it'll have good voice command integration to it, so I can't really fault them for trying, though the feel of the game isn't exactly something I find a good sign. Their WiiU titles look promising, though sequels and zombies aren't exactly the most fresh fodder. Watch dogs absolutely stole the show and it's something I fell in love with instantly, with the only bad thing I can say is that the visuals look like they badly need better textures butthat's about it.



Misc


The new Star Wars looks like a generic corridor shooty thing with rubber forehead aliens. If it came out a few years ago it'd have been great but for now it's gonna need do a lot more to impress me.

The lack of Valve having a real presence was a bit of a disappointment but it's something I'll live with. I mean at this point who honestly expected them to pull something big off without us having any real knowledge of it.

The new Tomb Raider feels really underwhelming. I mean who's playing the game to be a scared college girl with a bow and arrow fighting deer? I mean seriously, if I see this pale imitation of Croft shake like a wet Chihuahua again I'm gonna tear my hair out.

Borderlands 2 pointed out exactly why I love video games. It's bright, it's nonsensical, it's wild, it's FUN. It managed to not be just another gritty brown shooter and was all the better when stacked up to every other shooter shown.

TES Online is causing my expectations to lower as time goes by. I honestly think I would have been less worried with nothing at all. I mean it looks like they're abandoning the skyrim visuals and showing off before they've even really showed up.

I'm excited for Dishonored, more than ever now. It looks like the best bits of Fallout 3 and Skyrim, set in a vaguely victorian setting, then given lots of great new mechanics like keyhole peeking and manages to look better than 90% of what I saw from other games.

All in all though the current generation of technology seems to be really starting to show it's age. Everything that's not grittybrown or stylized looks like the textures are kind of leathery and the rendering looks like it's been pushed as far as it'll go. Whenever something breaks in the game world nowadays it's often obvious how weird it looks and all the top tier stuff looks like it's straining against the computational limits we're being made to work with.


All in all the things I expected to let me down did so, but the things I was lukewarm or excited about took off and went above and beyond. The omnipresence of the overstylized elite-military stuff is a bit annoying, but there's enough cool stuff on the way that I'll have my hands full for the next year and then some.

[Volatar]

Hmm. So destructible environments and animation (I think sprites already work pretty well).....For what games does that come in?

Spites? What? We are not on the same page here. I am talking about 3D games, not 2D ones. 2D will see no benefit.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well I find sprites automatically better then 3D so this isn't doing much for me anyway.

Im just torn. I wan't nintendo to succeed. I want to buy the WiiU. But Im scared that the release of new next gen consoles will leave it in the dust.

[Erloas]

Well I find sprites automatically better then 3D so this isn't doing much for me anyway.

Im just torn. I wan't nintendo to succeed. I want to buy the WiiU. But Im scared that the release of new next gen consoles will leave it in the dust.

How could sprites possibly "automatically" be better? There is nothing you can do in a sprite that can't be done in 3d, but thats not true the other way. Of course the types of games that use sprites now are generally designed significantly different from other games, but that design isn't specifically due to sprites. Other then some indy games I can't think of anything that even still uses sprites.

And if you are that much more interested in retro style gaming why would you care if the Wii U got left in the dust?

As an aside, wan't isn't a word, want is the word you're looking for. And ironically you left the ' out of I'm... so you had it all there just not in the right place. Which has nothing to do with the thread but I just find it rather annoying when people spell want like that because I have no idea where it comes from, its not even shorter.

[Scowling Dragon]

How could sprites possibly "automatically" be better?
I played Mario with Sprites. They look much better then Mario with 3D graphics.

Every game that can be done with Sprites thats done in 3d looks worse then if its done in sprites.

If a game MUST be done in 3d then fine. 3D looks better.


And if you are that much more interested in retro style gaming why would you care if the Wii U got left in the dust?

I dunno. Maybe Il miss out on something big and they will show off some kind of awesome amazing wonder tech that just makes me feel like a fool. Or maybe the WiiU ends up not using 80% of its possible capabilities/ Utilities .

I have Played with a touch screen. It allows for very interesting games, and some of the smoothest and nicest controls ever. In fighting games Im not forced to memorize button mashing codes. In Tactical games its great. In RPGs it allows for easier controls/ extra map screen. And I swear to God, Metroid Prime: Hunters has the best shooting controls of any system I have played. Better then even a mouse.


As an aside, wan't isn't a word

It ws a Spelling errr. Geez.

[Thanatos 51-50]

As an aside, wan't isn't a word, want is the word you're looking for. And ironically you left the ' out of I'm... so you had it all there just not in the right place. Which has nothing to do with the thread but I just find it rather annoying when people spell want like that because I have no idea where it comes from, its not even shorter.

You dropped an apostrophe yourself.
It's, not its. The latter is possessive, the former is a contraction for "It is".

Now: back on topic:
Am I the only one not looking at textures and hardware specs? I'm just looking at game-play/narrative stuff. Watch_Dogs looks interesting in that regard, as I've already said. AC3 looks like more of the AC2 same - which isn't a bad thing. Doshonoured looks... okay, but my excitement for it stems from a Game Informer article I read a while back which says it'll do stuff like letting you summon swarms of rats.
Or possess rats.

Or possess GUARDS.

[Maxios]

You dropped an apostrophe yourself.
It's, not its. The latter is possessive, the former is a contraction for "It is".

Now: back on topic:
Am I the only one not looking at textures and hardware specs? I'm just looking at game-play/narrative stuff. Watch_Dogs looks interesting in that regard, as I've already said. AC3 looks like more of the AC2 same - which isn't a bad thing. Doshonoured looks... okay, but my excitement for it stems from a Game Informer article I read a while back which says it'll do stuff like letting you summon swarms of rats.
Or possess rats.

Or possess GUARDS.

Or possess rat guards :smalltongue:

V: Great minds think alike it seems :smallcool:

[Scowling Dragon]

Or Guard rats.

[Zevox]

Other then some indy games I can't think of anything that even still uses sprites.
I believe the BlazBlue games do, though perhaps I'm wrong since I'm not entirely clear on what precisely counts as a "sprite." Example (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/a/a3/Ragna5D.png) images (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/7/7e/Jin6A.png) for (http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/images/9/2009/03/blazblue_02.jpg) you (http://www.aksysgames.com/wp-content/gallery/blazblue-continuum-shift-screenshots/no_02-copy.jpg). If so, the upcoming Persona 4 Arena (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/Personaultimate.jpg) likely would be another example.

Zevox

[Volatar]

I played Mario with Sprites. They look much better then Mario with 3D graphics.

Every game that can be done with Sprites thats done in 3d looks worse then if its done in sprites.


The vast of majority of games these days could not be made with sprites. :smallsigh:

[Scowling Dragon]

And I do not care for the vast majority of games released today.

A match made in heaven.

[Maxios]

The vast of majority of games these days could not be made with sprites. :smallsigh:

At least, not without heavily changing gameplay in some cases.

[Jayngfet]

You dropped an apostrophe yourself.
It's, not its. The latter is possessive, the former is a contraction for "It is".

Now: back on topic:
Am I the only one not looking at textures and hardware specs? I'm just looking at game-play/narrative stuff. Watch_Dogs looks interesting in that regard, as I've already said. AC3 looks like more of the AC2 same - which isn't a bad thing. Doshonoured looks... okay, but my excitement for it stems from a Game Informer article I read a while back which says it'll do stuff like letting you summon swarms of rats.
Or possess rats.

Or possess GUARDS.

It's not that we're only looking at that so much as it's a pretty big part of the game. The game-play for a lot of these games looks fun but the weird way everything is textured and shadowed is distracting. I mean it's fun and all but I just think it's awkward when every piece of clothing looks like it's leathery or like nylon. Getting a well done realistic high quality wool suit is still beyond what a console can really do at this point, so when I see Watchdogs or Dishonored with what looks like it should be cloth I'm just really kind of like "ok, something is wrong here."

The actual game-play looks amazing, and a lot of it is something I'm definitely buying early on, but we've obviously reached the upper limits of what this generation can do. I mean with how Sony is doing I expect the PS4 to come out with at least new info by next year and be on the shelves before Christmas two years from now at the latest. I mean already the initial estimates put the PS4 at late this year, but now that the time has come Sony is talking about taking a little longer.

[Wolf_Haley]

I believe the BlazBlue games do, though perhaps I'm wrong since I'm not entirely clear on what precisely counts as a "sprite." Example (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/a/a3/Ragna5D.png) images (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/7/7e/Jin6A.png) for (http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/images/9/2009/03/blazblue_02.jpg) you (http://www.aksysgames.com/wp-content/gallery/blazblue-continuum-shift-screenshots/no_02-copy.jpg). If so, the upcoming Persona 4 Arena (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/Personaultimate.jpg) likely would be another example.

Zevox
Their actually done with 3D modeling, similair to the "sprites" from KoF XIII and the Koihime Musou fighing game. Only recent games fighting game wise to still do full on sprites are Chaos Code, Blitzkamph, Melty Blood, and Aquapazza. All four very cool games BTW.

[Erloas]

I played Mario with Sprites. They look much better then Mario with 3D graphics.

Every game that can be done with Sprites thats done in 3d looks worse then if its done in sprites.I would start by saying I have never really cared for Mario, even when the NES was the only system around and Mario was in his heyday. I don't see much of a difference between them. I think, if anything, being in 3d just makes it feel more cartoony even though aesthetically it is almost the same.

I would agree that any more games that use sprites tend to have much more stylized designs and tend to have an overall feel that is different from a lot of more mainstream games.
However, that type of stylized design isn't restricted to sprites in any way. Borderlands does a great job at having an interesting feel and very stylized design with 3d.


It ws a Spelling errr. Geez.
I normally don't make a big deal about it, I do make mistakes myself after all. That one in particular I see a lot though, and since its not an obvious letter swap or text abbreviation, I'm wondering if some people actually think thats how it is spelled, I just wanted to make sure you know it was wrong so you don't continue to make the mistake without realizing.

I believe the BlazBlue games do, though perhaps I'm wrong since I'm not entirely clear on what precisely counts as a "sprite." Example (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/a/a3/Ragna5D.png) images (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/7/7e/Jin6A.png) for (http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/images/9/2009/03/blazblue_02.jpg) you (http://www.aksysgames.com/wp-content/gallery/blazblue-continuum-shift-screenshots/no_02-copy.jpg). If so, the upcoming Persona 4 Arena (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/Personaultimate.jpg) likely would be another example.

Zevox
Yeah, spite is kind of a hard term to really nail down. I'm pretty sure those are sprites in a technical sense, in fact I think any 2d design is by definition a sprite. However I think "common" gamer use tends to think of sprites more in the 8 and 16 bit eras of gaming where graphical assets are more self contained and tile like.


It's not that we're only looking at that so much as it's a pretty big part of the game. The game-play for a lot of these games looks fun but the weird way everything is textured and shadowed is distracting. I mean it's fun and all but I just think it's awkward when every piece of clothing looks like it's leathery or like nylon. Getting a well done realistic high quality wool suit is still beyond what a console can really do at this point, so when I see Watchdogs or Dishonored with what looks like it should be cloth I'm just really kind of like "ok, something is wrong here."
Yeah, I think we're starting to hit the uncanny valley in a lot of places in electronic gaming. At least we got past the plastic-y look that plagued the first generations of 3d games. Facial animations especially need a lot of work as the face tends to be so nuanced that to get it to look and feel right while talking and showing expressions that its going to take a lot of processing power.

[Scowling Dragon]

I would start by saying I have never really cared for Mario, even when the NES was the only system around and Mario was in his heyday. I don't see much of a difference between them. I think, if anything, being in 3d just makes it feel more cartoony even though aesthetically it is almost the same.

Yup. And Mario was just a random example at the top of my head.


I would agree that any more games that use sprites tend to have much more stylized designs and tend to have an overall feel that is different from a lot of more mainstream games.

I just prefer sprites. They just look better in my opinion.


However, that type of stylized design isn't restricted to sprites in any way. Borderlands does a great job at having an interesting feel and very stylized design with 3d.

And im not saying its not possible to create awesome esthetics in 3D? Of course its possible.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yup. And Mario was just a random example at the top of my head.

I just prefer sprites. They just look better in my opinion.

And im not saying its not possible to create awesome esthetics in 3D? Of course its possible.

Red Alert 3's 3d terrain looked terrible compared to Red Alert 2's 2d terrain.

The problem is that when they jumped from 2d to 3d they replaced a artform that had been well developed over a decade for a new one. Ocarina of Time's graphics were less advanced than those of A Link to the Past. It would be better to compare Ocarina of Time to the original Legend of Zelda.

The other thing about sprites is that they're literally drawn. That gives you millenia of artistic development as a resource.


So what does the new software offer? Outside of better Graphics

Hopefully the graphics will stay as good as they are now. The thing is that an awful lot has been sacrificed for today's graphics. When I played DooM in the 90s corpses stuck around forever. Today's shooters have rediculously high polygon count models that dissapear when they die leaving neat piles of guns to pick up.

When game designers create these highly detailed particle weather effects to 'increase immersion' and then find they need to make magically vanishing people to make room I just want to hunt them down, grab them by the head and smash them into their desks.

Video game graphics have a lot of room to improve, but they don't really need to. If game designers need more processing power to have those graphics and have the stuff I care more about like expansive level design then I'm happy for them to have it.

[Lord Seth]

You dropped an apostrophe yourself.
It's, not its. The latter is possessive, the former is a contraction for "It is".Or "it has." It's with an apostrophe can mean either "it is" or "it has."

It is accurate, however, that you do not use an apostrophe in "it's" if it is being used for possession.

I haven't really been watching, but was there anything interesting about the Playstation Vita? I ask because it's made so little of a splash it wasn't until I actually looked it up that I realized it was already released.

[Todasmile]

Well, the 3DS presentation was a bit lackluster too, I found, but it did a good job in showcasing the new Mario games, all of which I am definitely looking forward to. Especially Paper Mario. Delicious, delicious Paper Mario.

I'm a bit worried that they're bunching all their stuff a little too close together, though. Almost everything apparently releases "this holiday season". I also think they're maybe releasing NSMB2 a little too close to some other notable games, like KH3D and Theatrhythm, but that might just be me worrying over which to get >.>.

[Geno9999]

FIRE EMBLEM AWAKENING IS COMING TO AMERICA YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!! (http://kotaku.com/5916441/fire-emblem-awakening-will-be-coming-to-american-3ds-systems)

[Zevox]

Paper Mario for the holidays and Fire Emblem: Awakening coming to NA? Well, my biggest 3DS wishes have been fulfilled. And I now actually have more games to look forward to this year after Persona 4 Arena's early August release, which is nice. :smallsmile:

Zevox

[Cheesegear]

So, this is thing (http://i.imgur.com/amEcG.gif). Make of it what you will.

[Impnemo]

Monetizing nostalgia is good business strategy and certainly wont be frowned on if done truthfully, but... I find it troubling that the best they can offer is reheated left overs. :smallconfused:

[Mando Knight]

FIRE EMBLEM AWAKENING IS COMING TO AMERICA YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!! (http://kotaku.com/5916441/fire-emblem-awakening-will-be-coming-to-american-3ds-systems)

Nintendo, why don't you mention these things in your E3 conferences? You had like, twenty or so this year.

[Scowling Dragon]

The majority of all games are just sequels.

Only in videogames is a seven sequel series relatively new.

[Lord Seth]

Paper Mario for the holidays and Fire Emblem: Awakening coming to NA? Well, my biggest 3DS wishes have been fulfilled.Not mine. I'm still waiting for another Advance Wars...

[Zevox]

Not mine. I'm still waiting for another Advance Wars...
Yeah, that'd be nice, but there haven't so much as been rumors of that, so I wasn't expecting anything there.

Zevox

[Triaxx]

Did anyone else completely nerd out over Arkham City Armored Edition? I don't have a 360 or PS3, so I didn't experience it there, so the new version looks tremendously awesome.

[Volatar]

"...if you ever needed clear proof that [PC Gaming is] setting the pace, this is it." (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/07/pc-gaming-e3s-dirty-little-secret/)

"Did you know that nearly every multiplatform game demoed at E3 – especially during press conferences – is running on PC? I’ve asked, and so far, I’ve yet to get a “no.” Watch Dogs, Splinter Cell: Blacklist, Far Cry 3, Metro: Last Light, Medal of Honor, Battlefield, Crysis 3, etc, etc."

[Scowling Dragon]

Actualy I heard some commenter say something that rang true with me:

Nintendo feels like the only company (Im sure every companies designers are passionate about their projects) that still treats videogames as videogames.

Yes their in the business for money, but its lead by people passionate about videogames.

[Knaight]

Paper Mario for the holidays and Fire Emblem: Awakening coming to NA? Well, my biggest 3DS wishes have been fulfilled. And I now actually have more games to look forward to this year after Persona 4 Arena's early August release, which is nice. :smallsmile:

Zevox

Take a look at some of the new character art for Awakening (particularly Micaiah and Elincia, both of whom are on the Fire Emblem wiki). It doesn't inspire confidence, at all - which is a shame, given how good the recent entries in the series were.

[Triaxx]

I suspect the point is that Nintendo is still selling it's consoles on the strengths of their games alone, instead of does X, oh, and it plays games. It plays GAMES. Oh, and it also does some of X.

Plus it's more or less the only system still capable of same room gaming. I suppose you can do it with the 360, but Nintendo seems designed more for it.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm pretty meh about what I've seen from nintendo. This cracked list (http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-know-nintendo-has-lost-its-mind/) has exaggerated examples of what I'm wary of. But I'm not the sort of person who needs my games to be social. That controller looks really uncofmrotable to use, not to mention expensive if dropped.

Course, I'm not excited about the latest and lamest in ultra-gritty shooters either.

I think I'll just go wait quietly in a corner for Lego Batman 2, Lego Lord of the Rings, the inevitable Lego Avengers, and whatever Nippon Ichi is cooking up.

[Scowling Dragon]

I find problem reading that article because of how agressive it is.

I highly doubt that you will be forced to be social. Though yes that can be a big problem.

Also, Im highly supportive of the controller. It just allows for so many things. Mostly it functions like extra buttons. I do not know any medium for video game (Except for side-scrolling platformers) that cannot be improved with a Touchscreen.

It doesn't look too uncomfortable to me though.

[Jayngfet]

I suspect the point is that Nintendo is still selling it's consoles on the strengths of their games alone, instead of does X, oh, and it plays games. It plays GAMES. Oh, and it also does some of X.

Plus it's more or less the only system still capable of same room gaming. I suppose you can do it with the 360, but Nintendo seems designed more for it.

This is a pretty good point. When Microsoft went up there they kept going on about TV Channels and Smartphones and all kinds of stuff, but there was very little actual GAME content. It was all about how the 360 was effectively a glorified TiVo first and foremost.

Sony's whole Eye thing didn't fare much better. I mean with the way Harry Potter's book thing works I was more confused than anything. I mean really, the books didn't resemble books, the education had no bearing on how Hogwarts works, and everything looked so linear, and it felt less like playing a game so much as the whole book thing was just storytime with some metaphorical buttons added.

When Nintendo showed up with their Wii U communications network it was clear from the beginning that it existed to serve the game. You make posts on the internet about the game you're playing, you video chat to talk about the game you're playing, and in general it exists to enhance the gaming experience instead of adding a whole new experience. I mean a lot of the mechanics are kind of iffy but it's obvious their heart is in the right place, and in an industry like this that'll ultimately probably count for just as much as initial services once things run on for a couple of years.

[Erloas]

Nintendo has always sold their consoles based on the game rather then the console. However I've never liked their games from the time I was a little kid with the NES until now. I've never found their games all that fun or engaging. Even their party games that everyone else seems to love I get tired of after a very short period.

Obviously a lot of people like their games, but I think there is a very large part of the gaming community that doesn't. Which I think has been Nintendo's continuing problem with that section of the community. They are never reaching out to gamers that don't already like their games, they are never offering up anything for the people that aren't already their fans (or as is the case with new younger customers, would be their fan but is just learning about them).


When Nintendo showed up with their Wii U communications network it was clear from the beginning that it existed to serve the game. You make posts on the internet about the game you're playing, you video chat to talk about the game you're playing, and in general it exists to enhance the gaming experience instead of adding a whole new experience.
But Sony and Microsoft can't really talk about how new and exciting network communications are for their consoles because they've already had it for 6-7 years. A lot of that stuff only really sounds new for Nintendo, not for the gaming community as a whole.

And a lot of it doesn't sound all that much better then the spam facebook games create for their users which most people seem to hate. I have never once heard anyone say anything good about game achievement posts on Facebook.

And really when it comes down to it "playing games" is sort of a given for a gaming console, and there isn't much of anything that can be done to the existing consoles to change what they can do in terms of gaming, and neither of the other companies have started to talk about their new consoles yet. Things will probably look a lot different in a year when they are in the ramp up to their new console releases.

[Dumbledore lives]

Nintendo has always sold their consoles based on the game rather then the console. However I've never liked their games from the time I was a little kid with the NES until now. I've never found their games all that fun or engaging. Even their party games that everyone else seems to love I get tired of after a very short period.



So you're saying you don't like Mario, either 2-D or 3-D? You don't like Zelda, or Metroid, or Star Fox, or Pokemon or Donkey Kong Country? I could understand not liking some of Nintendo's stuff, or hell even platformers, but everything, even as a little kid? I just don't understand that.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

So you're saying you don't like Mario, either 2-D or 3-D? You don't like Zelda, or Metroid, or Star Fox, or Pokemon or Donkey Kong Country? I could understand not liking some of Nintendo's stuff, or hell even platformers, but everything, even as a little kid? I just don't understand that.

For what it's worth, I don't like ANY of the franchises you just named. Not one. Maybe Mariokart. Sometimes. But even then...

[Zevox]

Take a look at some of the new character art for Awakening (particularly Micaiah and Elincia, both of whom are on the Fire Emblem wiki). It doesn't inspire confidence, at all - which is a shame, given how good the recent entries in the series were.
First, what the heck does character art have to do with the quality of the game? :smallconfused:

Second, Micaiah and Elincia are from Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (and Path of Radiance, in Elincia's case), not Awakening, which appears to be set in the same world as Dark Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem (FE1 and 3 respectively, the games Marth comes from).

Finally, the art for the games all seems fine to me.

Zevox

[Sanguine]

Second, Micaiah and Elincia are from Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (and Path of Radiance, in Elincia's case), not Awakening,

Awakening has DLC missions where you use or oppose units from previous games, sometimes both at once. I think you can also import some of them to the main game but I'm not sure.

[Impnemo]

... there isn't much of anything that can be done to the existing consoles to change what they can do in terms of gaming...

Yes there is. See this?

http://www.slashgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/d-pad.png

Kill it. With fire. D-pad's and analog sticks work great on a two dimensional planform, but how long has gaming been centered on 3d content now? They need to stop screwing around with character control through jumping jacks and adapt a CAD type controller for gaming.

[Zevox]

a CAD type controller for gaming.
Query: what is a "CAD type controller?"

Zevox

[Reverent-One]

Obviously a lot of people like their games, but I think there is a very large part of the gaming community that doesn't. Which I think has been Nintendo's continuing problem with that section of the community. They are never reaching out to gamers that don't already like their games, they are never offering up anything for the people that aren't already their fans (or as is the case with new younger customers, would be their fan but is just learning about them).

You mean like taking steps to secure 3rd party support for the Wii U to increase the number of games for those sorts of gamers?

[Impnemo]

Query: what is a "CAD type controller?"

Zevox

Usually something like this:

http://spacecontrol.de/uploads/pics/3-D-Maus-Ball_02.jpg

Short list (https://www.google.com/search?q=plural+axis&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-beta#q=3d+controller&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&ei=aXjRT8isJYq80AH1jenCAw&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=image&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CH0QzAMwAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=16e242b91f687a77&biw=1920&bih=1015)

Push pull twist and tilt control. Making it hand held would lose some of the precision you get from the stable base, but even still it would function worlds better than a wii-mote.

[Zevox]

Usually something like this:

http://spacecontrol.de/uploads/pics/3-D-Maus-Ball_02.jpg

Short list (https://www.google.com/search?q=plural+axis&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-beta#q=3d+controller&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&ei=aXjRT8isJYq80AH1jenCAw&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=image&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CH0QzAMwAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=16e242b91f687a77&biw=1920&bih=1015)

Push pull twist and tilt control. Making it hand held would lose some of the precision you get from the stable base, but even still it would function worlds better than a wii-mote.
Looks to me like it'd be an unnecessary complication that wouldn't actually work much better than a simple analog stick already does.

Edit: Actually, it reminds me of the ball that controls old mouse movement. I tried manipulating those directly in moments of boredom back when I was in high school - it was pretty damn impossible to do.

Also, the price tags in that list you linked to do not inspire confidence in what it'd do to the already high price of controllers.

Zevox

[Mando Knight]

Push pull twist and tilt control. Making it hand held would lose some of the precision you get from the stable base, but even still it would function worlds better than a wii-mote.

Looks to me like it'd be an unnecessary complication that wouldn't actually work much better than a simple analog stick already does.

Edit: Actually, it reminds me of the ball that controls old mouse movement. I tried manipulating those directly in moments of boredom back when I was in high school - it was pretty damn impossible to do.

Also, the price tags in that list you linked to do not inspire confidence in what it'd do to the already high price of controllers.

Zevox
I don't see it catching on. The 2 analog stick system is very good for 4-axis control schemes. The axes for most games today? Two translational (moving forwards and backwards and strafing) and two rotational (looking left/right and up/down). Vertical movement is usually handled with jumping, which really only takes a button.

A control pad is generally used for other functionality in games where it isn't an expected movement control method, essentially as four extra buttons.

As for the Wii remote? That is the idea of the 3D controller in handheld form. Almost the entire hand is needed to finely manipulate a 3D mouse, whereas with control devices like the Wii Remote, the control is separated between muscle groups (the motion control uses your arms and wrists, the buttons use your fingers), allowing controllers to integrate the design with existing control schemes.

[Erloas]

Kill it. With fire. D-pad's and analog sticks work great on a two dimensional planform, but how long has gaming been centered on 3d content now? They need to stop screwing around with character control through jumping jacks and adapt a CAD type controller for gaming.

What I meant was there is nothing you can do with consoles currently on the market. Its not like Microsoft can do much fundamentally different for gaming with the 360 at this point, so obviously they aren't going to have anything like that in their show.

Personally I like the analog sticks a lot, and for most games, while its true they are 3d, you almost can't move in all 3 directions at any given time. About the only genre of game where you can if flight/space/sea related. With of course the exception of jumping, which is at best a temporary and minor change in the 3rd direction.


You mean like taking steps to secure 3rd party support for the Wii U to increase the number of games for those sorts of gamers? Which at this point is simply playing catch-up to what the other two consoles have been doing for 6 years. And the likelihood of the Wii U's hardware once again putting it in that not-3rd party developer friendly zone is really high again if Sony and Microsoft decide to up their hardware specs (which you know they will) and developers take advantage of it.


So you're saying you don't like Mario, either 2-D or 3-D? You don't like Zelda, or Metroid, or Star Fox, or Pokemon or Donkey Kong Country? I could understand not liking some of Nintendo's stuff, or hell even platformers, but everything, even as a little kid? I just don't understand that.I don't like platformers for one, which is most of Nintendo's games. And I'll be honest in that I haven't even tried many of their newer games because they lost me a long time ago and I've never seen anything about them that makes me think what I didn't like before is going to have changed. I don't honestly remember Metroid at all. Donkey Kong and Mario were both platformers. Pokemon was basically too young for me, as I was 16 and didn't have a gameboy when it came out and was 18-19 before it hit a console.
Zelda I remember liking because I liked most RPGs. I can't think of anything about it that really made it stand out to me though compared to many of the other RPGs of the time.
Star Fox I probably would have liked, except by that point I had been playing games like Wing Commander at the same time and they were better games for what I wanted out of a space/flight game.
For MarioKart, there were a lot of other racing games at the time, and without Mario I don't think there was anything that set it apart. For racing combat I much prefer Twisted Metal.

And just how it goes, the only Nintedo system we had was the NES, after that we went Sega, then PS1 then PS2, and we had a computer since... sometime around 1990 (I know it was a 386, I think 486s were out by the time we bought it though, so its in that time frame). So most of the exposure I had to Nintendo after the NES was at friends' houses and the games they had never convinced us to switch back to Nintendo.

I do actually have a Wii at the house, my brother brought it with him when he moved in with me. But in the year and a half its been here... I think its been turned on once when some kids were over for New Years. And the other times I've played it at other people's houses I've been consistently unimpressed with it even when they were showing me their favorite things on it. I can't even get up the enthusiasm for Mario to help a friend's 6 year old play for more then 10-15 minutes at a time.

And that has really been my issue with Nintendo the whole time. The more they change the more they stay the same. No matter what they do with their hardware, its always the same game over and over, again and again.

[Impnemo]

I don't see it catching on. The 2 analog stick system is very good for 4-axis control schemes. The axes for most games today? Two translational (moving forwards and backwards and strafing) and two rotational (looking left/right and up/down). Vertical movement is usually handled with jumping, which really only takes a button.

A control pad is generally used for other functionality in games where it isn't an expected movement control method, essentially as four extra buttons.

As for the Wii remote? That is the idea of the 3D controller in handheld form. Almost the entire hand is needed to finely manipulate a 3D mouse, whereas with control devices like the Wii Remote, the control is separated between muscle groups (the motion control uses your arms and wrists, the buttons use your fingers), allowing controllers to integrate the design with existing control schemes.

How many hands do you need to use two analog sticks? By putting more control in one hand you free the other a bit. You could manipulate your character in three dimensions reliably and still have the capacity to use that fancy touch pad controller the U boasts.

Whats more, the problem is as you described, they're building game play to the limits of the controller. They already recognize this as a problem, which is why they're adopting the different control schemes. Instead of dropping that controller on an existing game, imagine what difference it could make to cover mechanics in shooters if you had 3d control in one hand and an analog wiichuck in your other? It frees you up quite a bit to introduce new game play mechanics. Frankly, if you want to stop playing Call of Honor, Battlefield on Dune 2 the 42nd installment, we need to free things up a bit.

And yes Zev, cost is always an issue, but remember you're looking at the cost of high end controllers more akin to $600 HOTAS flight systems than a simple $50 joystick. The 360's kinect runs what, $125-$150? Logitech makes a lower end controller for $75. Toss in economy of scale and what have you, $50 a controller is reasonable and competitive.

[Zevox]

How many hands do you need to use two analog sticks?
Misleading question - you need only one thumb per stick, freeing up the rest of both hands to press buttons. Which would not be the case with the sort of controller you displayed, which would use an entire hand on the ball-bearing stick.

Also, Erloas is correct, there are very few circumstances where full 3D movement is ever required. In most games the second thumb stick is used for camera controls, which you do not need to be manipulating constantly. If this thing's usefulness is limited to only certain types of games, it sounds to me like the sort of thing that belongs as a peripheral - like arcade sticks are for fighting games, for example - not as a core aspect of every controller.


And yes Zev, cost is always an issue, but remember you're looking at the cost of high end controllers more akin to $600 HOTAS flight systems than a simple $50 joystick. The 360's kinect runs what, $125-$150? Logitech makes a lower end controller for $75. Toss in economy of scale and what have you, $50 a controller is reasonable and competitive.
I'd hard say reasonable myself, but I suppose competitive I must give you, considering it's what a wireless 360 controller currently costs. Though you are simply eyeballing it, so you could be wrong.

Zevox

[Volatar]

I wish flight sims and space sims would come back into style so that Joysticks come back. There isn't really many options and all the good ones are expensive, so I have stuck with mouse and keyboard for my space sim play.

I must ask you to actually show how you can make one of those ball things work in a console controller (ie: not laying on the desk) because I just can't see it working.

[Scowling Dragon]

Which at this point is simply playing catch-up to what the other two consoles have been doing for 6 years. And the likelihood of the Wii U's hardware once again putting it in that not-3rd party developer friendly zone is really high again if Sony and Microsoft decide to up their hardware specs (which you know they will) and developers take advantage of it.


Again. I want to see what toys they offer before buying a WiiU. Maybe the great controller and better control scheme will be better then whatever the other guys offer. I donno. Lets wait and see.

[factotum]

I wish flight sims and space sims would come back into style so that Joysticks come back. There isn't really many options and all the good ones are expensive, so I have stuck with mouse and keyboard for my space sim play.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Madcatz-CCB4330200B2-04-1-Cyborg/dp/B001EYU1VO

£40 doesn't seem excessive for a halfway decent joystick...

[Triaxx]

Ummm... no. Just... no. I've played with one of those at a friends house, after mine broke. (Older stick, gameport adapter failure.) It's possibly the most uncomfortable stick I've ever played with.

[MCerberus]

I'm just going to come out and say: never buy a Mad Catz product. The only thing they're less comfortable and more durable than is Pelican (is Pelican even around any more?). They've been that way since the Game Boy Color days.

[Knaight]

Second, Micaiah and Elincia are from Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (and Path of Radiance, in Elincia's case), not Awakening, which appears to be set in the same world as Dark Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem (FE1 and 3 respectively, the games Marth comes from).

Awakening kept them in as DLC characters, and the art direction there is utterly terrible. If they can't even do the character portraits right - and these are fairly major screwups - I don't trust the rest of their decisions either.

[Reverent-One]

Which at this point is simply playing catch-up to what the other two consoles have been doing for 6 years. And the likelihood of the Wii U's hardware once again putting it in that not-3rd party developer friendly zone is really high again if Sony and Microsoft decide to up their hardware specs (which you know they will) and developers take advantage of it.


It doesn't really matter if it's playing catch-up, it's still doing something you said they never do. And the question of whether or not the Wii U will fall behind again has too many unknowns at the moment for any good predictions.

[Mando Knight]

Awakening kept them in as DLC characters, and the art direction there is utterly terrible. If they can't even do the character portraits right - and these are fairly major screwups - I don't trust the rest of their decisions either.

It's more of a re-interpretation of the character design. The art style is very different between Awakening and Radiant Dawn.

Although Micaiah (http://serenesforest.net/fe13/img/dlc/001.jpg)...

[Erloas]

It doesn't really matter if it's playing catch-up, it's still doing something you said they never do. And the question of whether or not the Wii U will fall behind again has too many unknowns at the moment for any good predictions.
But they aren't reaching out to gamers that don't like their games. As for making their console game lineup more diverse, we'll just have to wait and see. Because I remember hearing that they were making some attempt with the Wii to get more 3rd party support but it never really amounted to much. And right now we have confirmed 3rd party support for a 4 year old game and a 1 year old (movie tie in) game. That is hardly a strong showing of support from 3rd party companies since they are both just ports of existing games with at most minor changes. When Sony and Microsoft announced their last consoles, and I'm sure it will happen again next year with their new consoles, it was with brand new games from 3rd parties, often exclusives, and at very least something that couldn't run on the previous generation.


As for a controller, I don't see how you can possibly claim a touch pad opens up more control options. It is really hard to do anything else with a hand controlling a touch pad, and that is basically movement or pointer control with maybe 1 button equivalent for an entire hand. An analog stick gives much the same control with a lot more button options.
Unless of course the touch screen basically becomes a touch-key pad... which might have some possibilities but seems like an overly complicated solution to an easy problem. As it would be trivially easy to add a real keyboard to any console and they are ubiquitous and can be dirt cheap.

A touch screen would work really well for a game like Okami. But I'm not sure if that sort of mechanic would work well with a wide range of games.
Most of the demos I've seen so far have basically made the screen an inventory management screen or a mini-game screen, neither of which are new or revolutionary and could just as likely make both of those actives more intrusive and annoying as it is to make them faster and easier.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well DUH thier reaching for a new audience. They need money. The majority of the audience that does not like nintendo games wants dull shooters.

Argue what you wish but give me ANY genre and I will tell you how well touch pad inproves it.

[Reverent-One]

But they aren't reaching out to gamers that don't like their games. As for making their console game lineup more diverse, we'll just have to wait and see. Because I remember hearing that they were making some attempt with the Wii to get more 3rd party support but it never really amounted to much. And right now we have confirmed 3rd party support for a 4 year old game and a 1 year old (movie tie in) game. That is hardly a strong showing of support from 3rd party companies since they are both just ports of existing games with at most minor changes.

How is expanding the game library on their system not reaching out to gamers that don't like their games? You're also missing new games already confirmed for the Wii U like Darksiders II, Assassin's Creed III, and Ninja Gaiden 3 (along with other games that the Wii didn't support), and Nintedo's already saying that there's more games coming during the launch window that just haven't been announced yet.

[Impnemo]

there are very few circumstances where full 3D movement is ever required. In most games the second thumb stick is used for camera controls, which you do not need to be manipulating constantly.

Zevox

Again, you're comparing a new control scheme to the games as currently designed for a different control scheme and then saying the new control scheme is not required. Picture a shooter where you can face independently of movement, and cover mechanics that allow you to peek with tilt and a varrying crouch as opposed to the snap to conveniently placed homogenous height wall and goto 3rd person camera. Its a different game play, which I presume people besides myself want considering I am not the only one to opine on the successive repackaging of the same game play.


You are right in that the controler I showed required the full hand, but that doesn't mean one cant be made smaller or differently shaped so that the lesser fingers can access buttons.


I wish flight sims and space sims would come back into style so that Joysticks come back. There isn't really many options and all the good ones are expensive, so I have stuck with mouse and keyboard for my space sim play.

I must ask you to actually show how you can make one of those ball things work in a console controller (ie: not laying on the desk) because I just can't see it working.


Looked at the T.16000m from thrust master? My Sidewinder 3d pro died a while back, had to replace it, was pleasantly surprised.


As for making the controller work hand held, that would be the most difficult thing and I'm not entirely sure. Not like I've prototyped it. The idea I have in my head atm is something like a wand with the ball at the end, manipulate the ball with forefinger and thumb and place a series of buttons along the outside edge. Trouble comes in controlling tilt reliably because that pulls the base of the wand in and out of the palm of the hand.

[Volatar]

Looked at the T.16000m from thrust master?

Thanks. Put that on my list of possibilities.


My Sidewinder 3d pro died a while back, had to replace it, was pleasantly surprised.

Duuuude, I actually have one of those in my garage somewhere. It works, but since it uses a serial port and the latest drivers I can find for it are for Windows 98...


As for making the controller work hand held, that would be the most difficult thing and I'm not entirely sure. Not like I've prototyped it. The idea I have in my head atm is something like a wand with the ball at the end, manipulate the ball with forefinger and thumb and place a series of buttons along the outside edge. Trouble comes in controlling tilt reliably because that pulls the base of the wand in and out of the palm of the hand.

Hmmm. Gotta figure that out before it's feasible.

[Mando Knight]

As for a controller, I don't see how you can possibly claim a touch pad opens up more control options. It is really hard to do anything else with a hand controlling a touch pad, and that is basically movement or pointer control with maybe 1 button equivalent for an entire hand. An analog stick gives much the same control with a lot more button options.
Unless of course the touch screen basically becomes a touch-key pad... which might have some possibilities but seems like an overly complicated solution to an easy problem. As it would be trivially easy to add a real keyboard to any console and they are ubiquitous and can be dirt cheap.
The touch screen will work. Since you don't seem to like Nintendo in general, I'm assuming you've never played a DS. The WiiU's touch screen is essentially the adaptation of the DS concept to a console.
Picture a shooter where you can face independently of movement,
It's called "strafing."

As for making the controller work hand held, that would be the most difficult thing and I'm not entirely sure. Not like I've prototyped it. The idea I have in my head atm is something like a wand with the ball at the end, manipulate the ball with forefinger and thumb and place a series of buttons along the outside edge. Trouble comes in controlling tilt reliably because that pulls the base of the wand in and out of the palm of the hand.
I think you're confusing tilt with rise. Tilt is analogous to pitch (turning up/down), not rise/fall (vertical translation).

The main problem with 3D controllers of that design in my experience is that it takes a lot of practice to isolate movements about axes, especially since at some point the controller is still "ball-on-a-stick" somewhere in the device and thus a force on the "ball" will result in the "stick" becoming a moment arm, causing rotation.

[Zevox]

Again, you're comparing a new control scheme to the games as currently designed for a different control scheme and then saying the new control scheme is not required. Picture a shooter
Yeah, lemme stop you right there: bad example to use for me. I do not like or play shooters, and as such both cannot picture and do not care how this type of control scheme would impact them. A different example would likely go much further in allowing me to meaningfully discuss the matter.

If they're the only example you can give of a type of game that would benefit from this though, then I'd say that my previous statement that it belongs as a peripheral is entirely accurate. No one genre warrants such a major change to the standard controller style.

Zevox

[Impnemo]

Actually I meant roll axis but the motion I had referred to earlier was 'tilting' the character around a corner, which would use the roll axis on the controller.

http://www.3dconnexion.com/uploads/pics/navigator_caps.jpg



It's called "strafing."

And again, thats limiting possible control to current control. Strafing is the best mimicry possible currently. Simplistically, I suppose you could say its like the difference between MechWarrior and Armored Core type controls.

[Impnemo]

Yeah, lemme stop you right there: bad example to use for me. I do not like or play shooters, and as such both cannot picture and do not care how this type of control scheme would impact them.

Zevox

Likem or not, theyre mainstream. Could affect melee combat and shooters in similar ways, simulations would kill for this as someone else noted, strategy games could utilize it. Any game that has 3d space and not just 3d graphics on a 2d plane could make use of it. Final Fantasy style menu selection games wouldnt see much use, but Im sure they could throw in some quick time events if you want :p

[Scowling Dragon]

Actually I meant roll axis but the motion I had referred to earlier was 'tilting' the character around a corner, which would use the roll axis on the controller.


Wow....This looks....Incredibly uncomfortable. A slight slip and my camera is messed up, I have to push and pull to move forward and backward yet roll to look directions. A mess.

[Impnemo]

Wow....This looks....Incredibly uncomfortable. A slight slip and my camera is messed up, I have to push and pull to move forward and backward yet roll to look directions. A mess.

Which is precisely why its been adopted professionally world wide to control fabrication equipment, heavy machinery, computer aided design etc etc? Its a leap from what people are used to/comfortable with, which more than anything ought to tell you why it wont happen.

[Scowling Dragon]

That's fabrication equipment. Not character control that requires less precision but quicker reaction.

Under this logic we must all try to use tv remotes for car Keys to control the precise second we unlock the door (instead of making sure it fits comfortably in my pocket)

[Volatar]

Actually I meant roll axis but the motion I had referred to earlier was 'tilting' the character around a corner, which would use the roll axis on the controller.

*snip*

And again, thats limiting possible control to current control. Strafing is the best mimicry possible currently. Simplistically, I suppose you could say its like the difference between MechWarrior and Armored Core type controls.

Oh man, I can definitely see the uses of this.

I loved MechWarrior back in the days when I still had a joystick.


That's fabrication equipment. Not character control that requires less precision but quicker reaction.

Under this logic we must all try to use tv remotes for car Keys to control the precise second we unlock the door (instead of making sure it fits comfortably in my pocket)

You have already said that you like 2d sprite based games far better than 3d ones. This gives you a very narrow view of things. I can see this being useful for a whole host of things.

And the reason reaction is more important than precision right now is game design, not something inherent to games. This has been exacerbated by console gaming and it's imprecise control scheme

[Erloas]

The touch screen will work. Since you don't seem to like Nintendo in general, I'm assuming you've never played a DS. The WiiU's touch screen is essentially the adaptation of the DS concept to a console. I have actually used a DS a little bit, but not for a wide range of games. I've also used touch screen phones. Touching the screen you are playing on though is a lot more usable then touching a screen constantly that you will only be looking at intermittently.


The majority of the audience that does not like nintendo games wants dull shooters.
That is quite the generalization.
There are a lot of RPG models that are nothing at all like Nintendo's RPGs. The RTS genre never really made it to the consoles. The flight/space sim, which I think the Wii remote would actually work decently for, I haven't seen on the Wii (but I haven't really looked either, and I know Star Fox kind of fits that, its at least the right genre but it doesn't fit what I want out of the genre, but to be fair the genre is almost dead). The options of the fighter genre are very limited from Nintendo. A lot of not dull shooters (Left 4 Dead and Borderlands come to mind, they aren't anything like the military shooters other then guns). Realistic racing games.

One big thing about Nintendo's games is that almost all of them have a very cartoony look and feel to them. It might work with most genres but it makes the games of those genres feel a lot different. Its also hard to build certain types of atmospheres with those sorts of designs. I simply don't like the majority of their graphical aesthetics (which doesn't have to be realistic, I can't quite articulate exactly what, but I know Nintendo doesn't have it).


Argue what you wish but give me ANY genre and I will tell you how well touch pad inproves it.
I could see a lot of uses for permanent extra screen space, but I can't see many uses for it if it isn't some place that can be easily looked without removing your eyes from the primary game screen. If you have to look away from the screen it is essentially not any different then a pause and look type of secondary overlay on the primary screen.

As for a touch screen (not on your primary view) for controls here are some games you can tell me how it improves them.
Twisted Metal
Wing Commander (or any real time space combat game)
Tekken (or any fighting game, would say Killer Instinct since it was on Nintendo but probably too old for most people to remember)
Sports game, lets just say Madden/Football to keep it focused
Armored Core/MechWarrior
Rainbow Six 3 (back when the series was at least mostly realistic)
A turn based tactical RPG (such as Fallout 1&2, not that the genre is really alive unfortunately)
Hack and slash RPG (such as Diablo)

[Scowling Dragon]

One big thing about Nintendo's games is that almost all of them have a very cartoony look and feel to them. It might work with most genres but it makes the games of those genres feel a lot different. Its also hard to build certain types of atmospheres with those sorts of designs. I simply don't like the majority of their graphical aesthetics (which doesn't have to be realistic, I can't quite articulate exactly what, but I know Nintendo doesn't have it).
Play the metroid prime series (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42u0KB6f5eU). If you want a taste of the series atmosphere here is the main soundtrack. Also Legend of Zelda Twilight princess is very colorful but has very great looking dark elements.


I could see a lot of uses for permanent extra screen space, but I can't see many uses for it if it isn't some place that can be easily looked without removing your eyes from the primary game screen. If you have to look away from the screen it is essentially not any different then a pause and look type of secondary overlay on the primary screen.

As a person who watches TV whilst doing stuff on the computer its not that bad. It depends on the angle you have the controller.


As for a touch screen (not on your primary view) for controls here are some games you can tell me how it improves them.

Twisted Metal


For racing game not much except for an extra map.


Wing Commander (or any real time space combat game)

I remember playing a flyer and I just used it to toggle shields in specific location, boost speed/ overheating monitoring, activate turrents and monitor area on the ship damage.

Pretty much stuff that would have cluttered the top screen too much without bringing up inventory. Made me feel like a real ship commander.


Tekken (or any fighting game, would say Killer Instinct since it was on Nintendo but probably too old for most people to remember)
Have access to all the special moves at the bottom making the game accessible for a guy like me who despises fighting games that feel more like about how fast you input codes rather then about dodging and cool moves (COUGH SmashBros COUGH). I have played a beat em up with similar to fighting game controls and this made life much easier.


Sports game, lets just say Madden/Football to keep it focused
Play the game on the controller. Lead the player with stylus. Tap on other players to pass the ball. Other hand holds controls half the pad allowing modifications to the screen (So holding A+taping in a direction shoots far, +b shoots strait). Works well.


Armored Core/MechWarrior

Never played but would imagine like the ship thing. Monitoring/ editing conditions.

Rainbow Six 3 (back when the series was at least mostly realistic)

Thats a shooter right? Well the pad in my opinion allows for the best shooting controls EVER. On par/ better then a mouse. One hand controls half a pad for buttons that modify the pad/ moving the character the other hand touches the pad and controls camera direction. THIS IS VERY PRECISE. It works REALY good in my opinion. The only shooter I finished fully.


A turn based tactical RPG (such as Fallout 1&2, not that the genre is really alive unfortunately)

Nothing revolutionary allows for faster clicking and stuff. Just an alternate control scheme.


Hack and slash RPG (such as Diablo)

Ive played WOW until level 20 (Then bore-quit) and from what I see its very similar. So mostly instead of a mouse.


Mostly its my favourite control scheme.

[Xondoure]

Important note on touch screens: It not only enhances a lot of current console genres but opens up a lot of new ones. I would think this would be apparent based off of how many games there are for tablets alone. In this way it's much the same as that fancy joystick. Only the technology to put it on a portable controller is already there, and it better fits the play style of most nintendo products.

[Drascin]

Kill it. With fire. D-pad's and analog sticks work great on a two dimensional planform, but how long has gaming been centered on 3d content now? They need to stop screwing around with character control through jumping jacks and adapt a CAD type controller for gaming.

God, no. Playing 2D games without a decent d-pad is freaking annoying. I got a Classic Controller-to-USB adapter to play PC games because trying to use that disaster the Xbox pad calls a D-pad was horrible. I would rather never play a fighting game again than have to play a 2D fighter on a thumb joystick, for example.

And honestly, that thing you linked looks rather unwieldy.

[MCerberus]

Important note on touch screens: It not only enhances a lot of current console genres but opens up a lot of new ones. I would think this would be apparent based off of how many games there are for tablets alone. In this way it's much the same as that fancy joystick. Only the technology to put it on a portable controller is already there, and it better fits the play style of most nintendo products.

The problem is that the way that Nintendo, or the whole industry at this point works is that the ability to use a new control technique is buried in shovel-ware with a rare gem that relies on its gimmick completely.

And remember that Nintendo already did the 'use a handheld as another screen' thing back on the Game Cube. It was pointless and unnecessary, but this time it might be different.

[Scowling Dragon]

Its not a gimmick. Its usualy just used in gimmicky ways.

And the gamecube thing WAS pointless as it offered nothing in the extra screen.

[MCerberus]

But all I see offered so far is either having the person at the touch screen sit out to do stuff, clunky inventory management that usually gets distilled to a single button press anyway, or OBLIGATORY MINIGAME.

The latter is the most distressing, since that's what ruined a lot of the Wii games.

[tonberrian]

It's more of a re-interpretation of the character design. The art style is very different between Awakening and Radiant Dawn.

Although Micaiah (http://serenesforest.net/fe13/img/dlc/001.jpg)...

Wow. Didn't see that coming...

[Impnemo]

God, no. Playing 2D games without a decent d-pad is freaking annoying. I got a Classic Controller-to-USB adapter to play PC games because trying to use that disaster the Xbox pad calls a D-pad was horrible. I would rather never play a fighting game again than have to play a 2D fighter on a thumb joystick, for example.

And honestly, that thing you linked looks rather unwieldy.


So, 2d controller works better for 2d environment, so no 3d controller for 3d environments? /sigh

http://www.goozex.com/community/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files.42/0247.change-is-bad.bmp_2D00_550x0.jpg

[Zeful]

Picture a shooter where you can face independently of movementYou mean face independently of aim, because we can already do that.

cover mechanics that allow you to peek with tilt and a varrying crouch as opposed to the snap to conveniently placed homogenous height wall and goto 3rd person camera.Requiring far, far more coding for a variable height croutch, and having it matter in play.


Its a different game play, which I presume people besides myself want considering I am not the only one to opine on the successive repackaging of the same game play.Not really. All it does is move a lot of function to one command input. However, I don't see the benefit of changing the entire control paradigm for any game. Splitting movement and camera functions to both hands engages both sides of the brain for identification and spacial conceptualization which different sides of the brain are good at.

What you suggest is the tactile version of playing video games with one eye closed. You can still do it, but it's vastly different from playing with both.


You are right in that the controler I showed required the full hand, but that doesn't mean one cant be made smaller or differently shaped so that the lesser fingers can access buttons.You need at least two fingers and a thumb on it at all times, leaving just two fingers on that hand left for inputs, and because of that, you can't build a handheld version without pretty much remaking the Playstation move controller or a Bop-it, and relegating the entirety of one hand's actions to the bulb.

[Erloas]

Play the metroid prime series (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42u0KB6f5eU). If you want a taste of the series atmosphere here is the main soundtrack. Also Legend of Zelda Twilight princess is very colorful but has very great looking dark elements. Yes, there is a lot that goes into atmosphere, and sound is a big part of it, but the visuals are even more so. Seeing as how sound hasn't been a limiting factor since we left the PS1/N64 era its a level playing field there. Building a believable world and one that feel alive takes a lot of processing because it isn't clean and sterilized like many game worlds are. And alive doesn't mean realistic, but it has to feel like one something is living in, not something set up for you to explore. Legend of Zelda does have a dark feel to it, but it is still cartoony. In my mind it comes across as going for a comic book feel, they are often dark but they still are often cartoony. There is of course nothing wrong with that and it is something I like in some cases, but its not what I want all of the time. And I'll reference Borderlands back to that, it is very clearly an over-the-top cartoony aesthetics that I really like and works well with the feel of the game, but its also not something I would want to see everywhere either.



As a person who watches TV whilst doing stuff on the computer its not that bad. It depends on the angle you have the controller. As someone who also has a TV within site of the computer I can say its something I couldn't do with any regularity when there is action going on in the game. A quick inventory check in most games is much less intrusive then turning to check out the TV or looking down at the keyboard when some key doesn't seem to be where it should be.


I remember playing a flyer and I just used it to toggle shields in specific location, boost speed/ overheating monitoring, activate turrents and monitor area on the ship damage.

Pretty much stuff that would have cluttered the top screen too much without bringing up inventory. Made me feel like a real ship commander.I'm not sure how this is working as anything more then "extra keys" for the controller. I also can't see how you could have the chance to look away from the screen for such vital combat information while you are in the middle of a fight, because if you aren't in the middle of fight then quick access to that information isn't that pressing. The reason that information is on the HUD in the first place is because it is vital enough you can't look away to get the information, which is why a Heads Up Display is just that.



Have access to all the special moves at the bottom making the game accessible for a guy like me who despises fighting games that feel more like about how fast you input codes rather then about dodging and cool moves (COUGH SmashBros COUGH). I have played a beat em up with similar to fighting game controls and this made life much easier. You mean a basic move list? The same list that most games have already in the pause menu? Because any fighting game I've ever played you'll be dead if you take a few seconds to stop what you are doing and look at a move list. And while it does improve accessibility to the game a little bit, it doesn't change gameplay in the slightest and isn't adding to or advancing the genre in any way.



Play the game on the controller. Lead the player with stylus. Tap on other players to pass the ball. Other hand holds controls half the pad allowing modifications to the screen (So holding A+taping in a direction shoots far, +b shoots strait). Works well.So why have the game on the Wii U at all instead of the 3DS?


Thats a shooter right? Well the pad in my opinion allows for the best shooting controls EVER. On par/ better then a mouse. One hand controls half a pad for buttons that modify the pad/ moving the character the other hand touches the pad and controls camera direction. THIS IS VERY PRECISE. It works REALY good in my opinion. The only shooter I finished fully. So basically you're using it as a virtual keyboard? I don't think the screen is large enough to do both with at the same time. I also don't think everything is going to be precise enough. In comparison to a mouse I don't think you have nearly the DPI of even an old mouse, let alone a new "gaming" mouse. Even with the full pad size, you have a 854x480 pad being mapped to a 1920x1080 screen (assuming the input sensitivity is the same as the screen resolution, which I kind of doubt). It could likely be a step up from a thumb stick, but its a far cry from the sensitivity/precision you'll get from a mouse. I'm also not sure how the control scheme would even work, if you are using the full screen and hand just for aiming the other hand has to be for moving as well as all button clicking which doesn't seem possibly with the controller for a right-handed person.



Ive played WOW until level 20 (Then bore-quit) and from what I see its very similar. So mostly instead of a mouse.
While I agree that the mouse is a superior input device to a controller, but if that is its primary use in any game why not use a mouse or play on a computer. It just says to me that there is nothing all that new here, just a new way of doing the same thing that can be done in other places. Though I will admit I would play a lot more console games if they had a mouse input.


I would think this would be apparent based off of how many games there are for tablets alone. In this way it's much the same as that fancy joystick. But how many phone/table games out there are anything more then time killer games? I honestly don't know because I haven't looked, but the ones I've seen friends playing thats about all they are. Not that there is anything wrong with time killer games, they can be a lot of fun, but I wouldn't pay much for them and I sure wouldn't buy a console for them. But the only ones I've seen work just as well or better with a mouse and if that is the type of games we'll be seeing then why would I buy a console for them? I can get them for my phone or on the internet.

[Mando Knight]

You mean a basic move list? The same list that most games have already in the pause menu? Because any fighting game I've ever played you'll be dead if you take a few seconds to stop what you are doing and look at a move list. And while it does improve accessibility to the game a little bit, it doesn't change gameplay in the slightest and isn't adding to or advancing the genre in any way.

No, like in Super Street Fighter IV 3D. The touch screen became context-sensitive buttons: you tap the right spot of the bottom screen (all the gameplay is on the top), and you immediately execute a Shoryuken, Spinning Bird Kick, or whatever special you choose.

An auxiliary touch screen is a very versatile control panel, and even if it's not technically faster than pressing buttons, I find myself preferring that method of control.

[Zevox]

Likem or not, theyre mainstream.
You missed my point. I said that it was a bad example for me: you asked to picture how a controller I've never used would impact a genre I don't play, which is kind of impossible, which makes it difficult for me to continue to contribute to the conversation. Thus why I asked for a different example.

To break down my role in the conversation, I'm doing two things here: the first is questioning whether this control scheme you suggest actually does much of anything that dual analog sticks don't already, as at first glance it looks to me like it wouldn't, on top of appearing to be more difficult to use. This part is why I asked for a different example, because I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole idea of how you think this control scheme is going to change or improve anything.

The second is questioning how many game types this would affect, assuming we grant that it would affect any. Because if it's something that would be useful only for select game types rather than a majority of games, it's better off as a peripheral, not as a new standard controller of any console.


Could affect melee combat and shooters in similar ways,
:smallconfused: I cannot see how that makes the least bit of sense. Melee combat and shooters share very little in common. And I don't see how this would affect melee-oriented games at all.


simulations would kill for this as someone else noted,
What do you mean by "simulations?"


strategy games could utilize it.
Er, how? I don't see how either turn-based or real-time strategy games would be affected by this in the least. Real-time strategy games are designed around mouse + keyboard control to the point where they're practically nonexistant on consoles, and turn-based ones don't even need an analog stick, just a d-pad.

Zevox

[Mando Knight]

:smallconfused: I cannot see how that makes the least bit of sense. Melee combat and shooters share very little in common. And I don't see how this would affect melee-oriented games at all.

Shooters often have basic yet powerful melee attacks. Halo, for example, given that your characters are supposedly 7 feet and a thousand pounds of powered armor, has rather killer punches, so it's quite common for players to run up next to each other shooting until they get into melee range for the finishing blow.

[Zevox]

Shooters often have basic yet powerful melee attacks. Halo, for example, given that your characters are supposedly 7 feet and a thousand pounds of powered armor, has rather killer punches, so it's quite common for players to run up next to each other shooting until they get into melee range for the finishing blow.
He said "melee combat and shooters," however, not "melee combat in shooters." (Which, bluntly, I find awful, speaking as someone who tried to run a melee character in Fallout 3. First-person mechanics just do not do melee combat right.)

Zevox

[Erloas]

No, like in Super Street Fighter IV 3D. The touch screen became context-sensitive buttons: you tap the right spot of the bottom screen (all the gameplay is on the top), and you immediately execute a Shoryuken, Spinning Bird Kick, or whatever special you choose.
I haven't played the game, but it sounds like each move basically has its own button, just that the button is in the form of a touch-screen point.
To me that sort of kills a big part of the game. I'm not even all that good at fighting games or real consistent with executing the moves, but to me it seems like you're taking away a good portion of the game. I can maybe see it with a story driven brawler sort of game, but with a fighting game, the moves are what the game is about.


You missed my point. I said that it was a bad example for me: you asked to picture how a controller I've never used would impact a genre I don't play, which is kind of impossible, which makes it difficult for me to continue to contribute to the conversation. Thus why I asked for a different example. I haven't used the pad in question but with the other picture I can see what it can do. It is basically the equivalent of 3 analog sticks at once, or a 3-axis joystick plus a d-pad and a 2 keys. However I don't see it being used for that much all at once. I think it would be very difficult to isolate all of the axises at once, at least if you have to respond with a lot of speed. I know when using a 3-axis joystick its kind of tricky, but it does get better with practice. I think in general it would be too much to do with one hand all at once, though it would be very powerful if you could get highly proficient with it.

I don't see it as being all that useful for most genres though. Flight/space simulators it would probably be amazing. I think almost any other type of game you probably couldn't use more then 4 axis at the same time. It might work decently in a shooter, better then a thumb stick but less precise and slower then a mouse. I couldn't see it being used in a fighting game or a platformer or most action games.

[Scowling Dragon]

Whatever Erloas. Why am Ieven bothering with you.

You dont like nintendo. You like artificial difficulty in fighting games. You rarely played touchpad yet you dont know why it works or not. And i find some of your arguments annoying: "Give me a reason.....oh well why dont i just play it on the computer?". That can be applied to 90% of all games released now.

Whatever.

[Volatar]

Well that's good. Now we can actually talk about E3. :smallsigh:

[Erloas]

You like artificial difficulty in fighting games. You rarely played touchpad yet you dont know why it works or not. And i find some of your arguments annoying: "Give me a reason.....oh well why dont i just play it on the computer?". That can be applied to 90% of all games released now.
Artificial difficulty in a fighting game? I would say being able to do the moves is the core of the gameplay. Its like saying aiming yourself is artificial difficulty in a shooter or timing jumps correctly is artificial difficulty in a platformer. Its a core skill to make the game.

You said specifically to name any genre of game and you could say how a touchpad would improve it. So I gave you a few example games/genres to see what you could come up with because I couldn't see any noticeable improvement from touchpad use in them.

And the point of the touchpad was supposed to be that it is new and innovative and that you can do things you can't do with other systems. And that doesn't seem to be the case. As the best use scenarios for the touchpad can easily be replicated with existing (and old) technology. Why should I get excited for "new hardware" that doesn't do anything "new"?

Besides, if we agreed there would be nothing to discus :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

Artificial difficulty in a fighting game? I would say being able to do the moves is the core of the gameplay. Its like saying aiming yourself is artificial difficulty in a shooter or timing jumps correctly is artificial difficulty in a platformer. Its a core skill to make the game.
...no, no it really isn't. What's important isn't the ability to do the moves, it's the knowledge of when and how to use them. Being able to do the most difficult-to-execute super move in a game won't help you one bit if you lack sufficient skill at mixups, zoning, or footsies to get a hit on your opponent. To use one of your comparisons, being able to do the moves of a fighting game is like being able to do a jump in a platformer - the most basic part of the game, and something which has no reason to be difficult (thus why it's done with a single button in platformers). Being able to use them effectively is like timing those jumps correctly.

Frankly, the inputs in some fighting games are something that could really stand to be made easier, in order to make the genre more approachable. Marvel vs Capcom 3 did so to good effect (though I wish they could find an alternative to the shoryuken motion, since that's so weird and unintuitive on a controller for those unfamiliar with it), but other fighting games still use some unnecessarily difficult inputs, which create an artificial barrier to people actually learning to play the games. (And heck, even MvC3 still has a few charge moves, Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu super, and the way it does throws, all of which could be simplified.)

Zevox

[Xondoure]

Artificial difficulty in a fighting game? I would say being able to do the moves is the core of the gameplay. Its like saying aiming yourself is artificial difficulty in a shooter or timing jumps correctly is artificial difficulty in a platformer. Its a core skill to make the game.

You said specifically to name any genre of game and you could say how a touchpad would improve it. So I gave you a few example games/genres to see what you could come up with because I couldn't see any noticeable improvement from touchpad use in them.

And the point of the touchpad was supposed to be that it is new and innovative and that you can do things you can't do with other systems. And that doesn't seem to be the case. As the best use scenarios for the touchpad can easily be replicated with existing (and old) technology. Why should I get excited for "new hardware" that doesn't do anything "new"?

Besides, if we agreed there would be nothing to discus :smalltongue:

But that's where it's simply not true. Touch screens can be used to do all sorts of innovative things. Like force you to draw runes to cast magic, or provide a secondary set of buttons or controls. There are a lot of things that can be done with a touchpad. Many of them could be core game principles, but if you're looking at existing genres of course the benefit is going to be supplementary.

I don't understand your argument because you put this 3D joystick forward as something that could revolutionize gaming, and that would open up whole new methods of gameplay while still being supplementary to existing franchises, and then refuse to acknowledge the same can be said for a touch pad. Which makes no sense when a touch pad has already been implemented and that is not true for a joystick that currently needs a hard surface to be useable on.

Personally, I just don't understand how anyone could push hard for innovation in video game technology and simultaneously bash nintendo, as they are the leading force in expanding new methods of gameplay (if not always on top of it with top of the line hardware.)

Edit: Blargh, people and posts all jumbled in my head.

[TheLaughingMan]

Well that's good. Now we can actually talk about E3. :smallsigh:

A Wild Derail Appears!

[Zevox]

I don't understand your argument because you put this 3D joystick forward as something that could revolutionize gaming,
Er, no, you're confusing a couple of people here. The one doing that was Impnemo. Erloas commented on that discussion a couple of times, but it was with a lot of skepticism towards Impnemo's claims (see his most recent post on the matter in response to my own, about seven posts up).

Zevox

[Xondoure]

Er, no, you're confusing a couple of people here. The one doing that was Impnemo. Erloas commented on that discussion a couple of times, but it was with a lot of skepticism towards Impnemo's claims (see his most recent post on the matter in response to my own, about seven posts up).

Zevox

That makes so much more sense. :redface: *gets on knees and stoops as much as possible.

[Scowling Dragon]

Simple question: what does a touch pad offer to games?
Simple answer: A much better control scheme (most likely not for you) and a selection of games that can be based off touchpad controls like kirby canvas curse.

Its not revolutionary. But pretty much nothing since the advent of 3d gaming is (taking your perspective)

[Dublock]

And the reason reaction is more important than precision right now is game design, not something inherent to games. This has been exacerbated by console gaming and it's imprecise control scheme

Exactly. This is the reason why I have not played many games on consoles. I much prefer the precise control scheme instead of the reactionary and I am not all that good at reactionary compared to my ability to be precise. The first console to really change that will get my undying love and support.

*gets more "on topic"*

I get why people are doubtful of Nintendo and I do share some of the doubts.

But WHY are people praising Microsoft? I saw this coming when I first boot up Windows 8 beta on my computer, this has been known. Has the gaming community not keeping up with the latest on the new operating system? When I heard the news I thought "About time." There is little to no reason why they have not done this more so since they are the only one in the field that has the ability to pull this off given that they have a phone/tablet operating system, let alone their big push towards that with their new OS later this year (which has been known).

I have not seen all of the games, but it feels like MS and Sony didn't really get the attention for the games as I thought they would. I thought they would really push the newest games for their almost obsolete consoles to push sales until they come out next year and from that prospective, I am disappointed. We will get a few good games at release for their consoles next year but I think we might be a year and half to two years before anything that truly makes an impact on the gaming industry as any video game (odds are) that wants to really use the new hardware isn't going to be released at the same time. (there are exceptions I know)

[Moonshadow]

Sony disappointed me by ignoring the Vita.

[maglag]

Kinda late to the talk but wanted to point out a small but key detail.



Which at this point is simply playing catch-up to what the other two consoles have been doing for 6 years. And the likelihood of the Wii U's hardware once again putting it in that not-3rd party developer friendly zone is really high again if Sony and Microsoft decide to up their hardware specs (which you know they will) and developers take advantage of it.


That's quite easy to say. However Nintendo isn't a colossal multicorporation. Sony and Microsoft are. Sony and Microsoft can afford to pour huge amounts of money in upgrading their specs, then throw those consoles in the market, fail, and still survive because they have several other sources of revenue.

Nintendo can't. Nintendo is just a gaming company, and most of their manpower is focused on making the games themselves and coming with crazy ideas, like the Wii. If they pour their resources into upgrading their specs to try to be ahead of everyone, they won't have anything leftover to make actual engaging games, and then that's a guaranteed failure.

So yes, better to play "catch-up" and use 6-year old hardware that is now much cheaper to produce, than make an ovepriced console that just has railroad titles with mostly shiny quick-time events.

[Erloas]

...no, no it really isn't. What's important isn't the ability to do the moves, it's the knowledge of when and how to use them. Being able to do the most difficult-to-execute super move in a game won't help you one bit if you lack sufficient skill at mixups, zoning, or footsies to get a hit on your opponent.
I guess this has to be a difference of opinion on the genre. Not that the genre can't have games of both designs. But to me it has always been clear that what it takes to do the moves is part of the core gameplay. After all it would be very easy to make moves much simpler then they are, and they often build the more powerful moves with more difficult inputs.

And if we take a game like Killer Instinct (old, but I really liked the game, near the end of the arcade era) with its really long combos, building those combos took a lot of practice, if it was push buttons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in order to do a super combo then they sort of loose everything. And a combo breaker move was trivially easy to do and would drastically change the game.


But that's where it's simply not true. Touch screens can be used to do all sorts of innovative things. Like force you to draw runes to cast magic, or provide a secondary set of buttons or controls. There are a lot of things that can be done with a touchpad. Many of them could be core game principles, but if you're looking at existing genres of course the benefit is going to be supplementary.
And casting runes like that would be something new and mostly innovative, which is of course examples like I was wanting. But just for the sake of debate, mixing that with Zevox's statement that fighting games "doing the moves" isn't part of the gameplay, its knowing when to do them, this would actually be a step backwards because your changing the gameplay away from knowing when to use the ability and more towards the motor-skills required to do it.:smallwink:

Of course I think games with both designs have their place.

The main problem I see with the touch pad, isn't that touch controls don't work, its that touch controls on a secondary screen which requires using without seeing or looking at and not being able to see the primary screen, as not working well. And while a more mouse-like pointing device on consoles would be a big step up for them as far as I'm concerned, I don't see much in terms of revolutionary use for it.


Its not revolutionary. But pretty much nothing since the advent of 3d gaming is (taking your perspective)
There have been a lot of revolutionary things, although almost ironically, many of them are software related and aren't immediately obvious. Portal for instances had a very revolutionary mechanic and one that required a lot of effort to get working. Physics offers a huge number gameplay options that are new, but most are too computationally intensive to be used in much yet. One of the early 3d revolutions was the ability to actually work on multiple levels, it was quite a ways into 3d development before you could go on top of and under the same object (I'm not sure if the limitation was static world only or every object actually). Distributive computing (ie online play) has been a huge revolution in gaming. Particle effects and realistic scenery are both things can build atmosphere and change gameplay but are too resource intensive to be used in a lot of places right now. How cool would it be to have a bush that actually looked like a bush and you could hide in and have "can you been seen" as something much more complex then a binary switch between yes and no?

The Wii mote, after having used it a decent amount, I think could have been much more then it was. I think the real power of it was lost to a combination of imprecision, limited hardware, and the most ideal genres for it being very niche. I don't think it adds much to Nintendo's core games. I think it would work really well for the all but dead space combat genre, as well as with any joystick based genre, which are all almost dead. I don't think it adds much to platformers though. And many of their tech-demo sort of games had good mechanics for the device they just never made "real" games using many of those mechanics.

As an aside, I might have to try some of the newer Zelda games... I think my step-dad has some of the Wii, might have to see about borrowing them.

[Scowling Dragon]

About fighting games:

This is the argument of "what do i need to do in order to do something"

Lets say in order for me to shoot in a shooter game i need to input a 14 button long code. Moving forward would reqquire a 43 long code. Now we made the game much harder and only true masters would ever be able to master such controls. But thats artificial difficulty in my eyes. Thats why the majority of fighting games bore me. Strip away the artificial difficulty and the gameplay is just so dry.

About physics: yeah. Cant argue there. But the majority of games dont use it.

About bush: no.

Kirby canvas curse was a platformer based around controling the environment rather than kirby.

[Zevox]

I guess this has to be a difference of opinion on the genre.
No, no not really. It's more you misunderstanding how the genre functions. Try watching some competitive play in fighting games - you'll never see players held back by inability to perform the moves, and similarly you'll never hear announcers or spectators praising anyone for that ability. It's a given. Instead you'll hear praise for effective blocking, setups, mixups, occasionally for execution of difficult combos, resets, predictions of their opponent's actions, and so on and so forth. It's what comes in between hits, what you do to land those hits, that defines those games.


And if we take a game like Killer Instinct (old, but I really liked the game, near the end of the arcade era) with its really long combos, building those combos took a lot of practice, if it was push buttons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in order to do a super combo then they sort of loose everything. And a combo breaker move was trivially easy to do and would drastically change the game.
I have never played Killer Instinct, but combos are another thing entirely from moves. How difficult a combo is to do is less dependant on the difficulty of pulling off the moves and more dependent on the difficulty of properly connecting those moves together. For instance, in BlazBlue, combos with my main character, Jin, in the most recent version tend to be on the slightly more difficult side, with midscreen ones depending on you getting a hit while quite close to the opponent, many involving quickly dashing in between certain moves in order to get into proper position to continue the combo, and his most damaging corner combos requiring a link that I'm pretty certain is a 1-frame window. But he's still nowhere near the most difficult character to do combos with in the game, and this is a game where most non-super moves, and even a healthy quantity of the super moves, are quite easy to pull off, using mostly quarter-circle and shoryuken motions just like in MvC3. It also has very easy canceling of moves, where normals chain into each other with no difficulty and practically everything is special/super cancellable without the narrow window to do that which you find in games like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat.

Similarly, Marvel vs Capcom 3, which I already covered being designed to make moves easy to do, was designed around mechanics that make comboing extremely easy on the basic level: all normals cancel into stronger normals, all normals cancel into special, all moves cancel into super, with only rare exceptions to those rules. Literally every character can do a basic light -> medium -> heavy -> launch -> jumping medium x2 -> jumping heavy -> super/knockdown and then super combo, for decent damage (there's variation by character on how to end with the super, and rare variations in how many of those normals you get beforehand). But look up any combo videos for the game and you'll quickly find that people took those mechanics and made extremely challenging to pull off combos with them.

And while I'm unaware of what a combo breaker move in Killer Instinct is, BlazBlue does have a mechanic that interrupts an opponent's combos: bursts, which are trivially easy to do (press all four attack buttons at once - can also be mapped to a single shoulder button on a controller, which I do). They can only be used once or twice in a match though (you get one to start with, another if you lose a round).


And casting runes like that would be something new and mostly innovative, which is of course examples like I was wanting. But just for the sake of debate, mixing that with Zevox's statement that fighting games "doing the moves" isn't part of the gameplay, its knowing when to do them, this would actually be a step backwards because your changing the gameplay away from knowing when to use the ability and more towards the motor-skills required to do it.:smallwink:
If that were being done in a fighting game, yes. In another genre is another story - my argument there is just about that genre, not about all games.

Zevox

[Volatar]

About bush: no.


Is that really all you have to say on the matter? Just "no"?

You can do better than that. A lot better.

No doesn't even make sense in context. No that's not a good idea? No that's not technically feasible? No it would hurt gameplay? What?

[Scowling Dragon]

Im not exited abput bushhiding physics.

[Dublock]

Im not exited abput bushhiding physics.

If we want a good conversation, then you need to provide more then just that.

Particle effects and realistic scenery is something I am looking forward to but I don't think it fits under the (starting) topic of "revolutionary." In my mind, that term is something that will dramatically impact the industry as a whole and I personally view those as an update to the existing.

Although I will love it when I open up a first person shooter and its hard to find someone because they blend in so well (and then I shall take advantage of it when I want ;) )

[Erloas]

No, no not really. It's more you misunderstanding how the genre functions. Try watching some competitive play in fighting games - you'll never see players held back by inability to perform the moves, and similarly you'll never hear announcers or spectators praising anyone for that ability. It's a given. Instead you'll hear praise for effective blocking, setups, mixups, occasionally for execution of difficult combos, resets, predictions of their opponent's actions, and so on and so forth. It's what comes in between hits, what you do to land those hits, that defines those games.
Well ok, here is the first disconnect. I don't see games as a competitive sport and don't think design decisions based on that mindset as constructive to the normal player base. Sure, once you get to a certain point in ability the nuances of the genre change and what separates player skill changes again. But most players will never be anywhere near that point.
You can tell, at least earlier in the genre that "performing the moves" was part of the challenge because many moves were difficult to perform by design.
And at least to me, a challenging input for a move is a more interesting game mechanic then a split second timing game.


Particle effects and realistic scenery is something I am looking forward to but I don't think it fits under the (starting) topic of "revolutionary." In my mind, that term is something that will dramatically impact the industry as a whole and I personally view those as an update to the existing.
Yes, for most games it would be evolutionary. I think for some games, like survival horror and stealth games in particular it would be more like revolutionary. And part of using it as as example is that it would take an almost revolutionary change in hardware for it to be possible. It is still beyond what computers can do and its actually one of those things that might require a move away from rasterization graphics to something else, maybe something like Ray Tracing.

[MCerberus]

Hardware updates simply put, allow devs to do more with the resources. The problem that the Wii has, and the Xbox is starting to creep up on (but it has a large enough market pull to where optimization towards it has an insane budget), is that there's a lot of stuff the devs can't do.

The difference in the next gen is going to be, well, everything's already in HD, so the real innovation is going to be net-side. If and only if the WiiU has some wiggle room to grow RAM-wise, it won't matter.

What does matter is that MS and Nintendo are slow to adopt to new distribution channels and pricing schemes. MS's cert process and fees attached, Nintendo dropping the ball (again) in embracing online (for reference, this mostly applies to their online game selling systems, where devs say profits go to die), and both companies' refusal to look at alternate business practices are going to hurt.

It's a way they're letting Sony pick up slack in the US, they're going to have the first f2p online game on consoles.

[Zevox]

Well ok, here is the first disconnect. I don't see games as a competitive sport and don't think design decisions based on that mindset as constructive to the normal player base.
But fighting games are a competition, by their most basic design. They pit two (or in rare cases more) players against each other, with the goal being to defeat the other by reducing their life to zero. That's a competition.


Sure, once you get to a certain point in ability the nuances of the genre change and what separates player skill changes again. But most players will never be anywhere near that point.
Most players will never be anywhere near as good as pros, certainly, but still those aspects are more important even at the most basic levels. Being able to properly defend yourself and get more hits on your opponent will always be more valuable than being able to perform any given move.


And at least to me, a challenging input for a move is a more interesting game mechanic then a split second timing game.
Split second timing is only one small part of it. Spacing, knowledge of your options and your opponent's and how those will interact, being able to analyze and take advantage of your opponent's habits, being able to create confusing situations to open your opponent's guard or put yourself at an advantage: fighting games are very much a mental exercise when you get right down to it. The reflexes and ability to do the moves just enable playing the game at all - which is why they really shouldn't be made more difficult than necessary.

Zevox

[Volatar]

The difference in the next gen is going to be, well, everything's already in HD, so the real innovation is going to be net-side. If and only if the WiiU has some wiggle room to grow RAM-wise, it won't matter.


Some (apparently) leaked specs from the WiiU devkit says that the system will have 1.5gb of RAM. That's 3x what the 360 and PS3 have, and is more than an order of magnitude up from the Wii (which, according to Wikipedia, had 88+3 mb of RAM).

[Xondoure]

An important note is that both Sony and Microsoft lost a ridiculous amount of money developing the xbox 360 and playstation 3. I'm too lazy to to hunt down all the statistics, but it may be infeasible for console development to continue along those paths.

[Volatar]

An important note is that both Sony and Microsoft lost a ridiculous amount of money developing the xbox 360 and playstation 3. I'm too lazy to to hunt down all the statistics, but it may be infeasible for console development to continue along those paths.

Gotta source that one. They sold the hardware at a loss at the beginning, that I know. But the 7th (current) generation of consoles are just computers with a special operating system. The 360 and PS3 weren't even better than the computers of the day when they came out.

[maglag]

An important note is that both Sony and Microsoft lost a ridiculous amount of money developing the xbox 360 and playstation 3. I'm too lazy to to hunt down all the statistics, but it may be infeasible for console development to continue along those paths.

Just like I pointed out a few posts ago. Developing top-grade hardware is expensive as hell nowadays. Nintendo simply doesn't have that kind of money, so that's why they don't really bother anymore.

Plus, it's not just the size that matters, is how you use it. :smalltongue:

If we observe the history of gaming, we can see that games can squeeze a lot more out of a console's hardware when the devs knew what they were doing.

[maglag]

Gotta source that one. They sold the hardware at a loss at the beginning, that I know. But the 7th (current) generation of consoles are just computers with a special operating system. The 360 and PS3 weren't even better than the computers of the day when they came out.

Dunno about the 360, but the PS3 had exceptional specs for its price (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/build-an-8-ps3-supercomputer/220) allowing for some interesting stuff (http://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomputer.html).

EDIT: And from here (http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/09/military-purchases-2200-ps3s/):

Though a single 3.2 GHz cell processor can deliver over 200 GFLOPS, whereas the Sony PS3 configuration delivers approximately 150 GFLOPS, the approximately tenfold cost difference per GFLOP makes the Sony PS3 the only viable technology for HPC applications.

[Scowling Dragon]

Some (apparently) leaked specs from the WiiU devkit says that the system will have 1.5gb of RAM. That's 3x what the 360 and PS3 have, and is more than an order of magnitude up from the Wii (which, according to Wikipedia, had 88+3 mb of RAM).

Is that good or unimpressive?

[Volatar]

Is that good or unimpressive?

3x the 360 and PS3? Yes, that is good.

[Scowling Dragon]

So...what does RAM allow for?

Does it meen X3 the potentialvfor better games?

If so, then Im sold on the WiiU

[Volatar]

So...what does RAM allow for?

Does it meen X3 the potentialvfor better games?

If so, then Im sold on the WiiU

3x the potential for bigness. Bigger textures, bigger maps, bigger armies, more things on screen.

[Scowling Dragon]

*Chucks fears out a window*

I apologize for my poor spelling recently. My computers monitor is busted (But under warranty YES!) so Im using unfamiliar keypads. From different computers to mostly my iphone.

So yeah. Im sold. Haven't played Arkham asylum yet so thats a plus for me.

[Mando Knight]

EDIT: And from here (http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/09/military-purchases-2200-ps3s/):

Though a single 3.2 GHz cell processor can deliver over 200 GFLOPS, whereas the Sony PS3 configuration delivers approximately 150 GFLOPS, the approximately tenfold cost difference per GFLOP makes the Sony PS3 the only viable technology for HPC applications.
That's partly due to the below-cost initial price for the PS3 at that time, I think. If they hadn't have been selling hardware at a loss, the gap would have been narrowed at least.

About the 3x RAM compared to the Xbox/PS3: it's a nice comparison point... but if the next Xbox or PS comes out at similar pricing to last gen and within a couple of years, they'll have maybe 3x that. On the other hand, we've heard nothing concrete about a new generation of hardware from Sony or Microsoft...

[MCerberus]

3x the potential for bigness. Bigger textures, bigger maps, bigger armies, more things on screen.


Less loading and smoother running as well. Of course the first thing people do with this is higher fidelity though. Which... hopefully we'll be seeing some better art direction soon. It's good that some things are getting colors other than brown at least.

@Mando, if Sony/MS ship a system with 4gig of general RAM and don't allow the GPU some GDDR I will start slapping execs.

[Scowling Dragon]

X3 the current generation is already space age tech for me. Lets see where this goes.

But currently my fears of WiiU not being that much higher then the current gen are dead.

[Volatar]

About the 3x RAM compared to the Xbox/PS3: it's a nice comparison point... but if the next Xbox or PS comes out at similar pricing to last gen and within a couple of years, they'll have maybe 3x that. On the other hand, we've heard nothing concrete about a new generation of hardware from Sony or Microsoft...

Of course. That is to be expected.

But for the next year or (hopefully not) two, the WiiU will be the high end console.

[maglag]

But for the next year or (hopefully not) two, the WiiU will be the high end console.

If find it highly unlikely that it will be less than 2 years. Neither MS or Sony have announced anything concrete for a new console, and it's usually at least 1 year between the first big announcment and the console actually hiting the market. And they would want a big event (aka E3) to reveal it, so if they didn't do it now, they're still on the development phase at best.


That's partly due to the below-cost initial price for the PS3 at that time, I think. If they hadn't have been selling hardware at a loss, the gap would have been narrowed at least.


Again suporting my previous point. Sony can afford to burn their own money selling their consoles at a loss because they have other sources of revenue besides gaming. Nintendo can't.

[Erloas]

X3 the current generation is already space age tech for me. Lets see where this goes.

But currently my fears of WiiU not being that much higher then the current gen are dead.

Well it is fairly clear that these specs don't mean anything to you, so I'll try to give you a bit to think about.

RAM is nice, but it is almost always a secondary consideration when looking at performance. More RAM will mean larger zones and less loading and higher resolution textures, but it doesn't mean much in terms of processing power. Its not going to allow for more objects to be rendered at once, or more complex objects, or more graphical effects or more physics calculations (given everything uses RAM, but its not the limiting factor for those things).

For a bit of reference, 2GB of system RAM (rather then shared like in consoles) has been standard for computers for... 6-7 years. 4GB has actually been standard for the last 2-3 years and 8GB isn't uncommon. Most video cards have at least 512MB of ram dedicated just to them.
And for reference in how much Nintendo is putting towards this upgrade, the retail price of 2GB of RAM is $13.

I know the processor and graphics processor are going to be quite a bit upgraded from the current Wii, but right now we have very little information on how powerful they will be compared to the 360 and PS3.
I know from the family the graphics chip comes from it will have more options supported then either of the others (being a DX10.1 based chip on the PC side of things, PS3 and 360 are both DX9, PC is DX11) but how much power it actually has is an unknown. Its rumored to be the R700 chipset, which isn't bad, its what I had in my PC about 2 years ago (maybe 3... forget when I built this), but even in that family it ranged from low end cards to high end cards for the time.
The processor is going to be triple core, but again, that doesn't mean much. As you have have phones with dual core processors, but that doesn't mean they are anywhere near as fast as dual core computer processors and you can still get dual core processors on the computer that will out preform quad core processors by a large margin.

We probably won't know much more until devs start leaking specs from their samples or when someone gets one to tear down and give some real information on.

[Todasmile]

The amount of RAM you're getting, though, is massive in comparison. The Wii had hardly any of it, and this IS 3x the amount of the 360 and the PS3. It will have an impact. A very large one, with this much of a change.

Also, the processor has been confirmed by IBM to be similar to the one Watson ran off of. You know, the robot that won Jeopardy!. Most speculation says that it's going to be a pretty damn powerful chip, stronger than the 360's and PS3's at least.

It is just speculation, of course, but the mere idea is pretty impressive. While the Wii was basically just an improved Gamecube, the U is - again, according to most speculation that I've seen based on the evidence we have - pretty much a total overhaul.

[Knaight]

Is that good or unimpressive?

For reference - RAM largely keeps up with Moore's law, which states that there is a doubling every 18 months to two years. It has been 6 years since the Wii came out, which works out neatly to either 4 or 3 iterations. This means that just keeping pace involves being between 8 and 16 times as fast. 10 fits into that range, and as such isn't particularly impressive. It does, however, mean that Nintendo is now keeping pace, which they didn't do for the Wii. Moreover, in practice these gains are becoming increasingly irrelevant for gaming purposes. Plus, as pointed out above, RAM is rarely the sticking point, as something else will fail to perform well enough first.

[Triaxx]

True, but it should nicely deal with that nasty little door issue, ala Metroid Prime 3.

[Dragonus45]

...no, no it really isn't. What's important isn't the ability to do the moves, it's the knowledge of when and how to use them. Being able to do the most difficult-to-execute super move in a game won't help you one bit if you lack sufficient skill at mixups, zoning, or footsies to get a hit on your opponent. To use one of your comparisons, being able to do the moves of a fighting game is like being able to do a jump in a platformer - the most basic part of the game, and something which has no reason to be difficult (thus why it's done with a single button in platformers). Being able to use them effectively is like timing those jumps correctly.

Frankly, the inputs in some fighting games are something that could really stand to be made easier, in order to make the genre more approachable. Marvel vs Capcom 3 did so to good effect (though I wish they could find an alternative to the shoryuken motion, since that's so weird and unintuitive on a controller for those unfamiliar with it), but other fighting games still use some unnecessarily difficult inputs, which create an artificial barrier to people actually learning to play the games. (And heck, even MvC3 still has a few charge moves, Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu super, and the way it does throws, all of which could be simplified.)

Zevox

I agree with everything you just said about a smuch as anyone on this board can ever agree on anything, that said i think charge moves have there place in fighting games, but that some attempt should be made to make them more accessible.

[Chalupa699]

I am really looking forward to Sly 4, Thieves in time:smallsmile:

[Maxios]

I am really looking forward to Sly 4, Thieves in time:smallsmile:

I am too. I played the crap out of the Sly series when I was younger.

[Falgorn]

Woohoo Nintendo yeah!
I'm not sure if I'm late or anything, but I'm stoked for the WiiU now (and my 3DS seems like its going to get more purpose :D)!