Combat maneuvers, can they be made good?

[Gharkash]

So, i went over the Impoved X line of feats (Bullrush, Disarm etc). These feats (except Improved Trip) give a +4 bonus on the checks you need to make to use the maneuver and remove the opportunity attack that you normally provoke.

Other than that, while i consider most of them good thoughts, they feel (and by general consensus are) bad. Not worth a feat, not good enough even with the feat, or not worth unless a build is a dedicated bullrusher/tripper/grappler.

Is there any way you can utillise these maneuvers and actually gain something from it? Feats and PrCs exist i imagine, any of them good?

For some one who does not want to specialise in them but to use them effectively, are there any homebrew feats/rules you find give them the focus and respect they should have gotten in the first place?

[marcielle]

It's not that I feel they are bad, just that everything else but the cheesiest builds pales in comparison to what a caster can do. I would just allow maneuvers to be used for whatever a player can justify. Tripping a flyer by going for the wings. Headlocks/submission holds on humanoids. Sundering limbs.

[Loki_42]

Well, Improved Trip is generally considered good, and Tripper builds are one of melees hallmarks. As a quick fix, I would add a free attack on to each one, if you are successful at performing the maneuver, like in Improved Trip.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Bull rush can be pretty fantastic, given the correct circumstances.

And Dungeonscape. The Dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighters make Fighter6 WORTH it.

[deuxhero]

It's not that I feel they are bad, just that everything else but the cheesiest builds pales in comparison to what a caster can do. I would just allow maneuvers to be used for whatever a player can justify. Tripping a flyer by going for the wings. Headlocks/submission holds on humanoids. Sundering limbs.

One WotC article actually gave rules for this. Mind you the same series of articles said there is no such thing as profiency in a splash weapon then gives an example where a character takes a non-proficiency penalty.

[marcielle]

Sometimes I feel WotC just didn't give a hoot about meelee proper.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Mind you the same series of articles said there is no such thing as profiency in a splash weapon then gives an example where a character takes a non-proficiency penalty.

That doesn't contradict itself. That just means that everyone, even characters with the fluff of being specially trained to throw them, take a -4 on attacks rolls with them.

That doesn't mean it's a good design choice.

[deuxhero]

No, it says there is no such penalty, then applies such a penalty in the example.

Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070717a)


Thrown weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the -4 nonproficiency penalty.


Lidda has a -8 penalty on the attack: -4 nonproficiency (which applies to all splash weapon attacks) and another -4 for attacking a target two range increments away (a splash weapon has a range increment of 10 feet).


Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a) is the article on triping winged characters.