Advice for a Monk

[MukkTB]

My cousin seems to eat the dirt very often. We've got two games going and he just got knocked off in combat in each. Let me outline the scenario.


#1 Necromancer Wizard + Bow Ranger + Gunpowder Inquisitor(me) + Ninja - LVL 1 party
He was the ninja. We were fighting a demon in the bottom of a dungeon. At low health the demon used a SLA to summon 5 small shambling humanoid demon things. They proceeded to surround wail on him. Ranger ran away. 2 rounds and he goes down. Wizard has to drag him out while I try to hold doorways and tank. Fortunately we were part of a larger group and were able to get reinforcements to come bail us out. They had given us a horn to blow if we found anything. Part of the problem was the weakness of the rest of the party. The necromancer sent in a skeleton which ate dirt and used a couple fear spells(successfully). I couldn't hit very well because I haven't got over to Zen Archer yet. So I would True Strike between taking shots.

#2 Blaster Wizard + Bow Ranger + Crusader(me) + Monk LVL 1 Party
He was the monk. And again we were fighting demons. This time out in the open. CR was a bit beyond us. 2 CR 2 humanoids and 4 flyers. We got the surprise round and took out 1 of the humanoids. The rest of the fight I spent trying not to die vs claw claw bite of the other one. My cousin got mobbed by flyers and went down from 4 damage. Apparently he had taken some damage earlier from a leech that he hadn't healed. And he seemed to have dumped constitution. It looked like a group wipe. The wizard and I were competing to see who would be the last one to go down. Fortunately for us some NPCs came in and saved us last minute. I guess they were survivors from the first expedition going after the demons. Felt kind of cheap. I guess the DM didn't really want a party wipe. I'm not sure if he had hinted that there might be survivors or not.

I had been providing my cousin with the healing I could. He was out in front a lot with characters who didn't have a great deal of tank. He's not really interested in optimization. He probably has the most number of character deaths in the group. I'm not really sure what to do about this. I could give him some simple advice but he doesn't particularly seem open to it. The real problem isn't what he's doing in game. Its more that he doesn't care at all for optimization and has a reckless playstyle. So I heal him as much as I can out of combat and then am glad the DM has somebody else presenting themselves as a target when **** hits the fan.

[Saintheart]

He seems to want to play Bruce Lee and presumably doesn't realise that the monk and ninja do not function like they do on a movie screen.

Tome of Battle might be more to his liking. Or, if he likes reckless, have you recommended barbarian to him? He could take the whole "GAAAARG I am a ronin with unkempt hair screaming as I charge in at my enemies" role?

[MrRigger]

At least part of the problem is that you're level one. There's nothing wrong with starting off at level one, but there's certain pitfalls you need to watch out for. Namely, the fact that HP is generally so low that a single strong attack will knock most characters out of the fight, and a crit with the wrong weapon will kill just about any character in the book. This is why my group generally starts campaigns at level three or higher, but I know that isn't for every group. It is something you might consider, though.

You may also want to start him on a different, but similar, class. Unarmed Swordsage is a great Monk analogue, one that sees a lot of play in my online group. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) is a great redesign of the Monk base class that keeps the flavor of the core Monk but fixes a lot of the problems the core Monk has to deal with. Show it to your group, see what they think. Both Unarmed Swordsage and the Monk redesign are fairly easy to use from the door, and don't require much optimization to use. Obviously, optimization helps, but it isn't necessary to keep the characters alive.

MrRigger

[Telonius]

Charging in recklessly, enough HP at low levels to soak up a bit of damage... I'd suggest that he tries playing a Barbarian. Sounds like it would suit his playstyle much better.

[Eldariel]

And he seemed to have dumped constitution. It looked like a group wipe.

This, this is a big part of why he's dying. Unwritten first rule of D&D: Never dump Constitution. 14 Con min on just about everybody. The more the better. Of course, sounds he's also a tad unprepared to play an adventurer; reckless adventurers tend to die in a blink of an eye anyways.

But...if he isn't willing to change his style, I don't think anything will change. Barbarian with good Con, saves & AC would give him some more survivability but no class can protect you from a suicidal player.

[docnessuno]

Seconding the barbarian idea, but a Crusader, expecially in the low levels, has an amazing staying power too.

[Answerer]

The universal advice for a monk is to not play a Monk; the universal advice for a ninja is to not play a Ninja.

These are two of the worst-designed classes in the entire game. I'm really not exaggerating at all here. The Monk is the better of the two, and that's horrifying. Monk 2 can actually have some pretty solid features, though they don't much relate to charging in recklessly. Ninja... Ninja 2 has some OK features, and basically gets literally nothing worth remembering you have after that.

Swordsage is a great class that can be a monk, a ninja, or a ninja-monk with ease. Its fluff is very much exactly along these lines; it is effectively a replacement for the failed Monk and Ninja classes.

There are other ways to build an effective monk or ninja, though.

Clerics can make good monks; divine powers are appropriate, they have high Wisdom, and Greater Mighty Wallop does very nice things to unarmed strike damage.

Psionic characters, particularly Ardents or Psychic Warriors, also make fantastic monks; they have the whole inner discipline/inner power thing going on, they're Wisdom-based, and they can get full Monk unarmed strike damage, fast movement, and AC bonus by just taking two feats (Monastic Training and Tashalatora, which a Monk 2 can get as bonus feats; note that Monk levels are not actually required to take either feat however).

For a ninja, a Rogue or Factotum would be a significant step up from Ninja. Spellcasters focusing on illusions and invisibility can also make very good ninjas.

[stack]

I presume it is the pathfinder ninja, which is actually a decent class. Still fragile if played wrong, though.

[Curmudgeon]

This, this is a big part of why he's dying. Unwritten first rule of D&D: Never dump Constitution. 14 Con min on just about everybody.
I think that's an overstatement. Never dump Constitution unless you can avoid getting hit. CON is the most common dump stat for my characters, but then I like stealthy types who Hide whenever they can. If you can't be seen you can't be targeted, either by weapons or spells.

For a Monk, that leads to the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21). Invisible Fist lets the character become invisible for 1 round, every 3 rounds. That means the Monk can make a full attack with flurry of blows and know that, unless their enemy can see invisible creatures, they can't counterattack. Of course, that's at level 2. A level 1 Monk (or pretty much any level 1 melee combatant) is at high risk of death.

[animewatcha]

You lose invisibility after the attack is made though.

[Curmudgeon]

You lose invisibility after the attack is made though.
I'm afraid you're mistaken. That's a property of the Invisibility spell, and has nothing to do with this ACF.

[animewatcha]

Checked srd as a quickie. Interesting wording. Will have to make sure to bring it up with DM. Probably would default to 'being revealed' anyway though. :(

For once, monks can have a nice thing though.

[Curmudgeon]

Probably would default to 'being revealed' anyway though. :(
The Monk is automatically revealed at the end of the round, and Invisible Fist doesn't allow them to become invisible for another 2 rounds after that; at best the Monk is visually undetectable only 1/3 of the time. There's no justification for the ability to be less effective than as written.

[animewatcha]

DM interpretation mainly. I meant the 'being revealed' as DM seeing it 'as the spell' versus exact wording. RAI versus RAW. Like say combining invis fist with sidewinder monk or chaos monk from drag mags.

[Lord_Gareth]

I think that's an overstatement. Never dump Constitution unless you can avoid getting hit. CON is the most common dump stat for my characters, but then I like stealthy types who Hide whenever they can. If you can't be seen you can't be targeted, either by weapons or spells.

For a Monk, that leads to the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21). Invisible Fist lets the character become invisible for 1 round, every 3 rounds. That means the Monk can make a full attack with flurry of blows and know that, unless their enemy can see invisible creatures, they can't counterattack. Of course, that's at level 2. A level 1 Monk (or pretty much any level 1 melee combatant) is at high risk of death.

No way to move out of melee range after the flurry happens, though, which means that when you become visible at the end of the round aforementioned enemy is going to beat your T6, no-armor face directly into the pavement.

[Curmudgeon]

No way to move out of melee range after the flurry happens, though, which means that when you become visible at the end of the round aforementioned enemy is going to beat your T6, no-armor face directly into the pavement.
You're confusing "at the end of the round" with "at the end of the turn". The invisibility lasts for 1 round, meaning just before the Monk's next turn. Plenty of opportunity to get out of harm's way, though it means the Monk is going to be effective only for 1 round of every 3:

Become invisible and full attack with flurry of blows.
Invisibility ends just before this next turn. Do a double move (using Tumble for the parts through threatened spaces) to get away.
Do a double move back, ready for another cycle.
Repeat as needed. The Monk's really only vulnerable to melee attacks at the start/end of each cycle.

And the Monk's Tier 5, anyway. :smallsmile:

[Talya]

He seems to want to play Bruce Lee and presumably doesn't realise that the monk and ninja do not function like they do on a movie screen.


Nonsense. They function exactly like an army of ninjas functions on the movie screen. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu)

[Gwendol]

Fighting demons at level 1? That's never going to be easy. He played a sneaky character at level one and got surrounded. Lasting 2 rounds in that scenario sounds about right.
I'd say there's nothing out of the ordinary in what you have described. Try and help him play to his strengths: stealth, mobility, etc not to get surrounded again.

[Answerer]

Become invisible and full attack with flurry of blows.
So the Monk was standing, fully visible, next to the enemy before his turn? So it wasn't so much a "full counter-attack" so much as "he's already gotten full-attacked"?

Because honestly, a real threat has a way to move and full-attack. The Monk doesn't, but the Monk isn't a real threat.

[Talya]

a real threat has a way to move and full-attack.

Most of the toughest monsters in the SRD would disagree with you.

I'm not saying that such a thing isn't a huge boon to melee, just that blanket statements like this one don't help your argument because they are so easy to discount.

[Curmudgeon]

The Monk's really only vulnerable to melee attacks at the start/end of each cycle.

So the Monk was standing, fully visible, next to the enemy before his turn? So it wasn't so much a "full counter-attack" so much as "he's already gotten full-attacked"?
I was thinking the Monk was 5' away rather than next to the enemy, but (as the above quote indicates) I already addressed this point. There's only so much tactical optimization available for a level 2 melee combatant.

[Eldariel]

I think that's an overstatement. Never dump Constitution unless you can avoid getting hit. CON is the most common dump stat for my characters, but then I like stealthy types who Hide whenever they can. If you can't be seen you can't be targeted, either by weapons or spells.

Well, by the time you know there are times to break the rule, you also know when. It's a good blanket rule for making characters when you're inexperienced. Of course if you can derive HP off another stat or if you can reach a fairly high level of invulnerability, it's a different matter.