Finding the right PrC for Diviners and the powerful Paragnostic Apostle

[Lactantius]

I'm building a new character which should fulfill the classic archetype of a loremaster, sage, counselor and typical enchanter/mage/pointy-hat-wanderer.

So, my first pieces for this build would be:

diviner specialist (maybe even focused diviner): diviners "feel" like generalist wizards, IMHO. Maybe that's because the divination school is archetypically bounded on the wizard class.
Anyway, besides the fluff, we have a nice start in a mechanical way: with specializing in divination, we only have to give up one (two for focused diviners) spell schools.
Since I tend to play my mages good-aligned, I like to give up necromancy and enchantment.
The loss does not hurt mechnaically, but it hurts from a fun-point of view. I always liked the "hexes" which are possible with necromancy (all the rays).
But anyway, we must pay a price for our deeper loremastery.

So, I came to the decision which class i would choose.
Firstly, It is a pity that speciaist don't get more powers connected to their choice. The boring +1 slot is just not enough IMHO.
Later 3.5-supplements showed up with more options for specialist. So, seems like WotC cameto the same conclusion.

But since a specialist kit would be homebrewed design, we must stick to the classes, ACFs and feats we get by RAW:

- A plain wizard is out since it's a losing game (comment: plain wuzards should get some advantage vs. prestige classes, but that's another topic).

- prestiges:
to fulfill our sage-like master of divination, foreseeing and lore, we have some sets of PrCs out there:

a) Loremaster
b) Divine Oracle
c) Paranostic Apostle
d) Wizard of High Sorcery (Dragonlance Supplement: Towers of High Sorcery)

a) Loremaster
The Loremaster is a relict of 2E AD&D. We has a speciality kit for priests of oghma, the faerûnian god of knowledge.
WotC tried to flesh it out in the 3.5 for wizards, but IMHO, they failed.
The PrC is poor because it give you boring and non-adequate abilites.
The secrets are a nice idea, but you get boring pluses or strange abilities.
Plus, you can start the Loremaster too late at all.

b) Divine Oracle
Here we get some bette divination abilites.
I like the oracle domain and the divination enhancement.
Evasion and uncanny dodge are mechanically good, but IMHO both don't fit to the theme of a sage or diviner. I don't know, those abilites are purely physical while a Diviner should get abilites based on intelligence and wisdom.

The capstone is very good, but the levels between are just boring. Nothing is happening there.
Plus, I understand that the DO needs a feat tax, but KL Religion is too religious for a wizard class. If it would be skill focus (spellcraft) or KL (arcana), It would be okay.
Lastly, I don't wanna hear tipps about getting to some frog adventuring site to get the entry feat for free. That just sucks, sorry ;)

c) Paragnostic Apostle:
I cant help why this PrC is used so rarely.
What I like at this class:

- you can start at level 6 without any costly prerequisites. The only prerequisities are your ranks in knowledge skills which are connected to the according class feature.
- you get Lore. I like Lore. It gives the DM an option to flesh out, well, "Lore." A nice hook for quests or long-term-stories around the campaign.
And if you want to play a bookish, sage-like diviner, you MUST have lore.
The nice thing is: PA's Lore is better than the Loremasters Lore (a shame, but that's the fact).
A PA gets Lore at ECL 6 while a Loremaster must wait till ECL 8.
Plus, his Lore bonus is double as high as the Loremasters bonus (twice PA levels vs. LM levels).

- you get a nice chassis. Sure, LM gets UMD, but I prefer the set of PA. A Pa gets 4 + INT skill points and a nice set of class skills (search, speak language, spot and decipher script). Those skills are strong mechanically (you can maximize spot and search) and IMHO, dealing with old parchments (decipher script), examining/studying stuff (search) and a good perception (spot) fit much better to the theme of a sage and diviner. plus, you are a kind of polyglot who speaks many languages. Sometimes it's better to do a job on the mundane way so that you don't need tongues.

- signature ability: Knowledge is Power.
Remember how I liked the idea of secrets (LM)?
Here, we have a much better design to get class abilites in a modular way so that you can build up abilites as you like. Plus, you get new abilites instead of boring "Pluses."

I wonder how strong other players would evaluate the class abilites.
Some are circumstancial, but some are no-brainers.

What I like:
Manifest Ethos: sure, it supports blasting and blasting is considered as suboptimal. But, you can blast much better since energy resistance won't help completely against divine power;
Call of Worlds: good for summoners. Since I summon only occasionally, i would skip that.
Mind over Matter: not bad. Although wizards shouldnt focus too much on AC, the synergy with greater mage armor (gets to +8) or even greater luminour armor (gets to +10) is nice. The hardness boost could be good for walls of stone and fabricate. Or if you cast hardening on the party fighter's sword. Depends: does the DM play with hardness and structure rules?
Penetrating Insight: IMHO, the most powerful ability (though, it's a boring "plus 1): you get a +1 bonus on dispel AND spell resistance checks. IMHO, priceless and always useful.
Spatial Awareness: boosts teleportation range, # of teleported people (maybe) and spells like haste or fly.

Weeeell...
can anyone enlighten me why not to play this class?
Okay, if you like more powerful classes like the Incantatrix, then you have no room for the PA.
Or if you look for a powerful capstone.
But here, we get a set of versatile abilites which underline the theme of sages and diviners.

d) Lastly, we have the wizard of high sorcery.
Not many people know this class. Maybe because it's hidden so well?
What I really, really like on this class is the approach:
they use the magic schools not only for boring specialist purpose, they give the schools a theme for themselves.
In the campaing world Krynn, there are black robes (evil mages), red robes (neutral) and white robes (good).
Associated schools are:
black: enchantment, necromancy;
red: transmutation, illusion
white: abjuration, divination

Evocation and conjuration are considered "general magic" and not associated to any robe color.
So well, what does this PrC do?
We get a 10-classes-PrC with early entry (EVL 4) which reminds me on the master specialist.
Depending on our alignment/robe, we get magic secrets. Those secrets function similiar to the loremasters / PAs secrets, but I like them even more since they are connected to the philosophy and magic schools (and in our case, to abjuration and divination for a white robe).

Here an overview:
Wizard of High Sorcery

class details edited out.

- check yourself for this PrC since it's non-OGL-material -


Okay, what I really like at this PrC is the perfect mix of fluff and crunch. The class consists of a magic philosophy and not only of RAW magic schools.
White Robes mesh the philosophy of abjuration (protect and undo) with the ideas of divination (foresee and counsel).
The Magic of X are the correspondent secrets. Although they are written poorly (for example, where should a wizard apply empower spell to abjurations?), I like the idea to connect the "secet" with the spell/school theme.

Now, that was much stuff.
What do you guys think is a good solution for a diviner?

[Fyermind]

The Magic of X are the correspondent secrets. Although they are written poorly (for example, where should a wizard apply empower spell to abjurations?)

Clearly you would empower dispel magic for a significant boost on the caster level check it details!

[Diovid]

Instead of using Diviner as a base class, a cloistered cleric might fit a similar niche (plus it gains lore which stacks with Lore from the Paragnostic Apostle).

Or you could go Archivist 11 / Urban Savant 9 (if you can convince your DM the Urban Savant advances your divine spellcasting).

I don't have much to say about the Wizard of High Sorcery, it looks fine (it's a 10/10 spellcaster with extra's) but it's nothing special.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Nix the text from the DL Pr: it's not not OGL, sadly.

Have you considered Master Specialist as "filler?" Wizard 3/MS X/Para 5/Rest is solid.

[Lactantius]

Sadly, I had to nix the PrC details out.

Anyway, is this PrC strong or just weak?

I dunno, I like the idea, generally, to boost abjuration and divination with metamagic (like sudden metamagic feats).
But empower seems so wrong with abjuration.

I _guess_ the designers thought dispel magic (as THE staple abjuration spell) would work with empower, so that the Magic Secret would boost the dispel check.
But empower does not work on dispel magic, as we all know.

I have checked all abjuration spells for legitimate empower targets.
Well, my result is disappointing.
Besides reciprocal gyre and maw of chaos, there is not much left to empower.
Even spell turning (1d4+6 spel levels) is no variable in terms of empower spell.

Same goes for divination and enlarge spell.

In other words: I like the idea of giving different sets of magic abilites through the secret-ability.
Heck, I even liked the free improved counterspelling feat. With reactive counterspelling, you could do something with it (upgrading counterspelling from useless to useful and gaining another iconic sorcery ability).


Instead of using Diviner as a base class, a cloistered cleric might fit a similar niche (plus it gains lore which stacks with Lore from the Paragnostic Apostle).

Or you could go Archivist 11 / Urban Savant 9 (if you can convince your DM the Urban Savant advances your divine spellcasting).

I don't have much to say about the Wizard of High Sorcery, it looks fine (it's a 10/10 spellcaster with extra's) but it's nothing special.

Well, my chassis is the wizard, that's solid. It represents the archetype i want to play much better.


Have you considered Master Specialist as "filler?" Wizard 3/MS X/Para 5/Rest is solid.

Yes, but MS is pretty weak for diviners.
My goal is the Io7V at level 10, so im filling the first 9 levels.
Most would suggest the entry via MS, but - again - I find the MS abilites kinda boring (honestly).
Then again, I don't want to focus totally on abjurers.
The general idea is to be a diviner with some abjuration abilites (say: protect, dispel, counterspell, undo magic stuff).
I always found both schools very appealing for one certain character theme.

You could go so far and say that the theme of the character has top priority and the classes should carry this theme (most players optimize in the opposite way by starting to choose race/classes and THEN apply the background and theme).

Well, my theme is the sage, the bookish, scientific and loremastery wizard. He is a Diviner since thats the path many knowledgeable arcanists follow.
Plus, he wants to protect, uphold and he is kind of a seeker (of truth, knowledge etc).

And now I sit here and wonder which classes to choose.
PA seems totally okay, but then again, it is always the same question from an OP-point-of-view:
how good is a class giving many different minor class abilities in comparion to a class giving a unique, major class ability (but not so many other abilites)?

For the level 6-9 range, many powerful classes come to my mind which gets named again and again:
- Incantatrix, to get metamagic feats and metamagic effect. IMHO, too cheesy and not even covered by the rules 100% since I think metamagic effect does not work the way OP-players use it.
- Fatespinner, since it gives control over spellcasting (spin points) and chances of success. But then again, its just number-crunching.
- MoAO for spellpool. IMHO, an interesting ability since versatility is an important pillar for wizards. In earlier games, I kept up this versatility by scribing scrolls.
My experience was that scribing scrolls is really good. But then, I got influenced by the newer handbooks which say that you should exchange scribe scroll for improved initiative and save your gold and XP. Treantmonklvl20 was one of those apostles who delivered this message :)
Now, I'm unsure.
Somehow, I still think scribing spells is cheap and handy.
A level 4 scroll costs 28 XP and 350 gold.
At a certain level, these costs are peanuts.

But then, you hve something like spellpool giving you a virtual scribe scroll feat without paying gold or XP. The only advantage of scrolls vs spellpool is that the scrolls do not count against your spell slots and that you can cast them faster than spellpool spells.

As you an see, the wheel turns around the same topic again and again (even if this may sound confusing ;) ):

How many major signature abilities does a wizard need?
How good are minor abilities in comparison?
How effective should a wizard cover his major bases considering spellcasting (means: metamagic, versatility, max out spells/day, item creation and specializing/banning schools)?

At the end, I want a diviner which fits perfectly into the campaign. But I wonder which path is the wisest decision.
There is always power for an already powerful class. And then, there is flair, fluff and character development.

[Zomg Zombies]

I know you stated that you wanted wizard as a chassis, however, what says loremaster/sage/councillor to me is bard: start with lore, lots of available divination/enchantment/abjuration, a little healing (cause who's the first on the scene when the lord/prince/whatever falls and gets injured? The councillor, with a quick fix till the healer arrives). A bard doesn't have to be all lute and song, your primary preform could be Oration, be the wise old man who educates by talking... a lot...

the only 'negative' would be the lack of high end spells and to solve that you could go bard5/paragnostic apostle 5/sublime chord 10; or start off with the Sage bard variant.