Giving up scribe scroll - a wise choice?

[Lactantius]

Inspired by another thread I came to the following conclusion:

- in earlier D&D games, scribing scrolls was considered as one of the powerful tools a wizard has. The explanation is easy: by scribing a spell, you can outsource this spell. You free up your precious spell slots and gain extra versatility since you have a circumstancial spell ready (just in case of).

- Then the handbooks came. And with them the run on ACF: combat wizard.
By using improved initiative as combat wizard feat, most handbook writers and char builders recommended to give up scribe scroll to gain +4 initiative.
The arguments were strong: initiative is always important for casters and by using this ACF, you free up one feat you would invest for improved initiative normally.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering if this hype is correct.
Sure, Improved Initiative is good and nice, but is it worth to skip scribe scrolls?
Besides being first in combat, one other important ability of wizards is to have an answer ready for any problem or threat coming up.
Sure, you can optimize your versatility output by using extra spell slots (specialists), spontaenous casting (runestaves / spellpool / uncanny forethought / spontaenous divination), but in the end, you still have a limited set of castable spells per day.
A scroll, however, does not block your spells/day. It is just an extra ressource, much like a pearl of power.

Many would argue that scrolls are expensive. Well, IMHO, scrolls are one of the cheapest magic item you can craft.
Your XP are always spell level x caster level, which is not much.
Your Gold _can_ reach higher values, but only if yous cribe higher level spells (level 4+).

So, any love aorund for scrolls or do all wizard players nowaday exchange it against the ACF?

[Waker]

Honestly I don't think I've ever seen anyone use that ACF before, I know I haven't. While I do think that Improved Initiative is a handy feat, I think the power that Scribe Scroll represents completely outclasses it.
+4 Initiative vs Any Spell(s) You Can Cast being in your pocket. Doesn't really seem fair in my opinion.

[Need_A_Life]

Giving up Scribe Scroll for Imp. Initiative is good in campaigns with little downtime. I've been in campaigns where three sessions covered about 24 hours. Item crafting in that campaign would mean not showing up for a few months. Give me +4 initiative instead.

I've also been in campaigns where weeks flew by between encounters and even months every once in a while. Much rather have Scribe Scroll there.

Of course, I would tend to trade it out... but not for a combat feat.
Eidetic Mage ACF (Dragon magazine) trades your Scribe Scroll feat and your familiar for not needing your spellbook.
1) It avoids the whole "******* GM going for your familiar and/or spellbook."
2) I like the idea.
3) Uncanny Foresight becomes a very, very attractive feat. Spontaneous casting for Wizards? Yes, please!

[jaybird]

As others have said, it can be worth it, or not. Certainly, once you hit mid-levels, it's my opinion that you can already stack enough initiative boosters that you'll reliably go first at any rate, and having a Handy Haversack stuffed full of every 1st to 3rd level spell ever printed can be a serious lifesaver.

[Invader]

Hummingbird familiar gives a +4 to initiative.

Plus you can just cast nerveskitter (immediate action) or use scrolls of it, which is a level 1 spell and gives a +5 bonus to Initiative if used within 1 round.

Id say its def not worth giving up scribe scroll.

[Malachei]

Giving up Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative is standard advice of several Wizard handbooks.

And I have to disagree.

Downtime has been mentioned. Yes, if you're playing a campaign with a tight time frame, you'll have little time to create magic items (however, Scribe Scroll also requires little time). Apart from this, I've seen games finish such a fast-paced campaign and then suddenly, characters temporarily retire, or there is downtime until the next campaign starts. Sometimes, even years of game time until the old evil has regrouped or a different kind of enemy rises. In this situation, you have a very good argument to tell your DM that your wizard is not sitting twirling his thumbs all the time. Yes, Improved Initiative is very nice, but none of my wizards had it, and I didn't miss the feat. And there are many ways to boost your initiative.

Finally, I find a wizard not being able to scribe a scroll somewhat... well, inapt.

[Fouredged Sword]

The problem I have with scribe scroll is that you can get scrolls easily without the feat. Just buy them. Even making you are only saving 1/2 the cost and spending exp instead.

Stick with improved initiative.

[Roguenewb]

It depends. If your wizard is designed for high level play, and is capable of some serious Rocket Tag, (Twin Split Enervations or other nonsense), then Improved Init laughs at Scribe Scroll. With that kind of wizard, I look at Natural Linked Hummingbird Familiars with Improved Initiative over Scribe Scroll (21+DEX means I go first!) as the baseline. If you're playing a more real world adaptive wizard who does a bunch of stuff and adventures and helps the party, then Scribe Scroll can be a godsend, particularly if your Cleric or Rogue is a highly non-standard build.

[mattie_p]

Finally, I find a wizard not being able to scribe a scroll somewhat... well, inaptinept.

Fixed that for you.

[sreservoir]

It depends. If your wizard is designed for high level play, and is capable of some serious Rocket Tag, (Twin Split Enervations or other nonsense), then Improved Init laughs at Scribe Scroll. With that kind of wizard, I look at Natural Linked Hummingbird Familiars with Improved Initiative over Scribe Scroll (21+DEX means I go first!) as the baseline. If you're playing a more real world adaptive wizard who does a bunch of stuff and adventures and helps the party, then Scribe Scroll can be a godsend, particularly if your Cleric or Rogue is a highly non-standard build.

I prefer to look at shapechanging into a dire tortoise.

[Invader]

You can take a look here for better ideas for increasing you initiative without giving up scribe scoll.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0

[hoverfrog]

There is no way that I would give up Scribe Scroll as a feat. Every time I get a spell I make a couple of scrolls of it. Ever find yourself wishing that you had a spell that you didn't memorise? No problem, you have a scroll of it. I cannot imagine a feat that gives you anywhere near such potential.

[Roguenewb]

I prefer to look at shapechanging into a dire tortoise.

A.) Shapechange comes online at level 17, that 21 Init is at like... 8.
B.) You know DMs who let you use shapechange?!
C.) The wording on lightning strike implies that they get a surprise round, not that it excludes others from acting in that round. Anybody with Uncanny Dodge, or Foresight, gets to act in that round, and then you are rolling your dinky +DEX init, but frankly, A&B are much better reasons.

[BShammie]

Fixed that for you.

Not really, no.
Inept (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inept)
Inapt (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inapt)
They both work.

I agree with most of the others, I wouldn't trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative unless the game had very little downtime. Having more spells per day, including spells that help you win initiative rolls, is almost always more useful.

[ericgrau]

I would not give up scrolls for a feat. I would, however, give up half price on scrolls for a feat. Most scrolls I get are low level; I don't get many high level scrolls because they're not worth the cost. But I can afford a hundred low level scrolls. Even then they only make up a little of my wealth, and getting half off on that is only worth so much. I'd gladly pay a few hundred gp for a feat at low levels, or a couple thousand gp for a feat at higher levels.

While I get a very large number of scrolls, they aren't often the same as the spells I know nor would that be good. They're lower level and often aren't caster level or save dependent since scrolls are bad at that. They're used once in a while rather than every day.

In other threads I've seen people willing to pay 3,000-16,000+ gp to free up a feat. I challenge people to look at their old character sheets and try to find 6,000-32,000 gp worth of scrolls on them.

[Invader]

I would not give up scrolls for a feat. I would, however, give up half price on scrolls for a feat. Most scrolls I get are low level; I don't get many high level scrolls because they're not worth the cost. But I can afford a hundred low level scrolls. Even then they only make up a little of my wealth, and getting half off on that is only worth so much. I'd gladly pay a few hundred gp for a feat at low levels, or a couple thousand gp for a feat at higher levels.

While I get a very large number of scrolls, they aren't often the same as the spells I know nor would that be good. They're lower level and often aren't caster level or save dependent since scrolls are bad at that. They're used once in a while rather than every day.

In other threads I've seen people willing to pay 3,000-16,000+ gp to free up a feat. I challenge people to look at their old character sheets and try to find 6,000-32,000 gp worth of scrolls on them.

The amount people are willing to pay depends on the feat. It's been noted before you can easily get a +4 initiative from other means without giving up scribe scroll.

The beauty in scribe scroll isn't that it saves you a bunch of money but that you can make scrolls when you're away from an town/city where you can buy them.

EDIT* I will agree that if you're never going to actually scribe a scroll then by all means dump it for something else.

[Hirax]

Scrolls of 7th-9th level take 2 days to scribe, days which need not be consecutive. Every other scroll takes 1 day to scribe. If you grab heward's bedroll, scribing a scroll doesn't add much to your day versus resting normally. Or watching others rest normally, if they require it but you don't.

[thriceborn]

Scrolls of 7th-9th level take 2 days to scribe, days which need not be consecutive. Every other scroll takes 1 day to scribe. If you grab heward's bedroll, scribing a scroll doesn't add much to your day versus resting normally. Or watching others rest normally, if they require it but you don't.

Point of contention, scrolls from levels 5 and 6 take 2 days and levels 7 and 8 take 3 days and any higher takes 4 days. And also, use a quill of scribing from the complete mage or arcane.

[Hirax]

Oops, I'm a knucklehead and looked at the cost to create and not the base price. Ah well.

[thriceborn]

Oops, I'm a knucklehead and looked at the cost to create and not the base price. Ah well.

Happens to the best of us. Only reason I said anything is my DM is a stickler for me keeping everything straight. When I started playing a crafter, I did everything based on cost to create as well. I still do it sometimes.

[Lactantius]

Well I don't remember the source, but AFAIK, you can write multiple spells on one single scroll (parchment).
This still counts as "one scroll" so that you can do multiple spells within one day.


Scribing seems to be a common choice, if I interpret the answers so far.
I agree so far, but the only dangerous rival for scribe scroll is an alternate spell source such as spellpool ur uncanny forethought.
Both can do the same job what scribing is made for: maximizing your versatility by broadening your available spells on-the-fly.

The advantage of scrolls is that they dont' count on your spell slots (unlike spellpool/UF does).
The disadvantage of scrolls is that they are fixed to a certain caster level if you want to keep the costs low.

But then again, this leads to the next question:
How important are maximized spells/day?

1) This is most time a tough decision between using a specialist: Yes/No?
2) Do you refresh your spells/day after 1,2, 3 or 4 encounters: Yes/No?
3) Do you cast many spells/day or are you shy and hesitant on casting over and over? Yes/No?

[Psyren]

Does it matter in the end? Every Wizard worth his salt will want both, and can get both.

I will point out scribing is really only worthwhile after early levels, whereas untyped bonuses to initiative are worthwhile throughout the wizard's career. I would personally go for the initiative unless the game is starting at mid-levels, in which case it again doesn't matter because I can incorporate both into my build.

[Malachei]

Fixed that for you.

If you're spending your time posting with fixing other posters' spelling, then at least, please do it competently.

[Thurbane]

Hummingbird familiar gives a +4 to initiative.

Don't you have to be tiny to qualify for a hummingbird familiar? If so, it makes it tough for human wizards.

Sorry, I was thinking of the thrush from the DMG...how unlike Dragon mag to come up with a familiar who's bonus is pretty much superior to any of the core ones. :smallamused:

Anyhow, one time it's worth swapping out a Wizards Scribe Scroll is if you're going to theurge as an Archivist/Wiz, since you get scribe scroll from Archivist 1 anyway...

[Lactantius]

Or you gain access to the rune domain. Or are a member of the Lady's College of silverymoon (item creation possible w/o the feat).

[Flickerdart]

"You can get +4 from elsewhere" is not a convincing argument against taking Improved Initiative, because it's an untyped bonus. You can take that other thing on top of it, and laugh in the face of chance even more than usual. For wizards who absolutely must go first (such as War Weavers), maxing out initiative is indispensable, especially in the early levels. For wizards who do their spellcasting in the morning, though (dropping fat stacks of hours/levels or persisted buffs on the party) scribing scrolls for cheap is far more useful, as they don't have as many resources at their disposal during the day otherwise.