Vow of Poverty Monk (NOT ANOTHER VOW OF POVERTY MONK DISCUSSION THREAD)

[Lonely Tylenol]

OK, let's get all the controversial stuff out of the way now, although it will probably show up for the next 13 pages anyway:
1) Tome of Battle is not allowed in any form, from Unarmed Swordsage to the Martial Study feat and even Superior Unarmed Strike. Do not recommend Swordsage.
2) I am aware (as I have suggested before) that Barbarian does unarmed fighting better. The DM has allowed me to multiclass freely between Barbarian and Monk, and trade weapon/armor proficiency to stack Barbarian levels with Monk levels for unarmed damage, so I already am. Do not recommend Barbarian.
3) I am aware that Vow of Poverty is a huge nerf vs. magic items, especially at higher levels. This is a part-time character for a campaign that is beginning at level 1, and between the character only being around for some adventures and my not being able to count on any magic items that I don't find while at the table (and also the DM interpreting all monks as being poor anyway), I can't count on having any magic items, ever. Do not recommend I remove Vow of Poverty.
4) My odds of getting Tashalatora are zero to none. That's about all that needs to be said. Do not recommend Tashalatora.

OK, now that that's out of the way... A few other cautionary notes:
1) The DM uses default fluff for a lot of things. A lot. I had to plead my case for taking Barbarian levels outside of 1st level (as Barbarians, by default, belong primarily to barbaric/nomadic tribes), and allow me to fluff it as a Zen-like "calm within the storm" as I wanted it to be.
2) Core and completes are in. Dragon Magazine (and compendium), Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic are definitely out. Almost everything else is out by default, with exceptions being made on a case-by-case basis (for instance, I argued, successfully, for the use of Dragon Magic auras for the Marshal). Flaws are out.
3) We rolled for ability scores after finalizing character concepts. I didn't roll well. I landed 15, 16, 12, 10, 6, 10. No rerolls but the default rerolls, and, well, I can play these stats anyway. The DM has a rule that players are allowed to move two points from anywhere to anywhere, so that helps. So does the extra 10 hit points that every character gets at level 1 (so a 1st-level character starts with 10 + max for the class + CON).
4) I prefer Humans by default (I love the feat and bonus skills), and the DM prefers the use of Humans strongly. At this point I can probably ask for another race if I make puppy-dog eyes and bring pizza to the game, but templates are out, as is anything with a level adjustment (it's a level 1 game and I don't intend to sneak anything past him).
5) The game's low-op, so while I appreciate the ability to drop 32d8 with your fist five times on a charge, it will also get me ejected from this particular game. I'd be confident enough that what I have is enough, if I wasn't so clueless about what to do past level 6 (blame six months of E6 DMing and counting).

The concept:
Basically, I wanted a character who entered into monastic life after a brief stay on the front lines of battle for its discipline and rigor, foregoing the temptations of everyday life in conventional society and the lures toward chaos that they entail. The character eschewed wealth, power, and the vices of the flesh and body in order to control his inner "wild child", as it were; the uncontainable frenzy that exists within every warrior, that claims reasoned men and causes them to succumb to bloodlust in the heat of the moment. To do this, he has attempted to gain physical perfection, as well as perfect physical control. After time, training, and introspection, however, he learns that trying to bottle up and contain this energy can itself lead to violent outbursts, so he does the one thing he can: learn to release this energy in short, controlled bursts, to harness the warrior's fury to his advantage, to enter into a trance-like, even Zen-like state of calm, where the body acts independent of mind, and yet the two remain as one; to live entirely in the moment, in the heat of the moment, balancing on the edge of a knife all the while.

How I've decided to enact this concept:
So far, I've decided to go with a Monk of the Denying Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) 2/Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) Barbarian 2-4/????? X with the Ferocity (Cityscape/Web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) and Decisive Strike (PHB2) variants. With the scores I was given, I had opted for STR 15(+2)/DEX 16/CON 10/INT 10/WIS 12/CHA 6(-2), although I may yet change things around. The concept would be actualized by channeling energy during my round into a single, devastating strike, but with a fighting style that is primarily reactive (see: Combat Reflexes). Later on, when my character has learned to channel his own chaotic energy, he brings out the big guns, entering into a state of pure action before thought via Ferocity (which simultaneously makes him more powerful and better able to react to his environment). Improved Natural Attack is a likely take as well.

The problem with this is... I don't really know where to go from there.

I was thinking about going with Fist of the Forest, which could be achieved either by taking Power Attack at 3rd and Great Fortitude at 6th, or becoming a Monk of the Overwhelming Attack and taking Combat Reflexes at 3rd and Great Fortitude at 6th, or becoming a Bear or Ape Totem Barbarian and never being able to grab Improved Trip due my low INT (and also probably not being a Monk of the Denying Way, and grabbing Stunning Fist at 1st level instead). My CON is pitiful (but I could go with a 14/16/15/10/10/4 layout if I so chose), but two improvements to unarmed strike in 3 levels, plus useful features all around, make it a useful option, and it's flavorful.

Tattooed Monk is also a possibility: although it goes against the "my body is a temple" aspect (only slightly), the DM basically asked me as I was building the character, "tattooed or no?", so it's not like a Tattooed Monk is that far out there. Helps me get around the total lack of gear. I would need to grab Endurance (with the added drawback of it being more useless due to VoP overlap), but it would give me a direction to go in.

Kensai is another option, too. I would need to be a Monk of the Passive Way, or make one of my two good stats INT (and Carmendine Monk is likely out), but if I went Passive Way into Bear Totem, I basically have everything I had before except for Combat Reflexes (which I would then grab at level three), and it would be the only way to add special abilities to my fists, with Vow of Poverty being around and all (and Necklace of Natural Attacks not likely existing anyway).

Sacred Fist and Enlightened Fist are also possibilities (the party has no arcane caster, but there is a Cleric and a Druid), and I'm not concerned with grabbing 9ths (as the game is starting at level 1 and leveling to 20 is not likely), but I think it might be too little, too late, unless I drop Monk or Barbarian entirely (and I'd rather not).

Are there any other good options I'm not considering here, that this DM might not throw the book at me for? Or any other way to make this concept out to be what I want it to be?

Thanks in advance (and sorry for the walls of text)!

[Answerer]

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but my honest advice is to find another DM; this one sounds terrible.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but my honest advice is to find another DM; this one sounds terrible.

I'm the only other 3.5 DM on-island.

[Tokiko Mima]

How about a Beaststrike+Eldritch Claw warlock? There all sorts of neat tricks that fit in with the 'powered by rage' type monk if you have access to invocations. :smallsmile:

[Jarian]

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but my honest advice is to find another DM; this one sounds terrible.

With all respect to different DMing styles, different group expectations and needs, and all that other jazz... this pretty much sums it up.

You already know what you can do, and you've done it. It's probably going to suck. Since just about everything helpful ever that we could possibly say has been banned or ruled out already, there's really not much else to say.

[Benly]

I've always been a bit of a fan of the Frostrager (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3) as long as you're being a partial barbarian. It's not on your approved list, but not on your banlist either, and thematically it goes well with Fist Of The Forest. I don't have the books handy to check how the damage die increases interact, but I suspect that the two together should lead to a pretty beefy damage boost as well.

[marcielle]

Without magic, Goliath Barbarian substitution is the easiest way to pump your unarmed and... no, I'm afraid that's all I have for this situation. Good luck:smalleek:

[Lonely Tylenol]

With all respect to different DMing styles, different group expectations and needs, and all that other jazz... this pretty much sums it up.

In the interests of diplomacy and fairness, I will say that this DM and I have shared... Differences in the past. Some are on record, here. Rarely have the forums disagreed with you here. And I love my group (the one I DM for)--I really do--but dammit, sometimes I want to be on the other side of the table.


You already know what you can do, and you've done it. It's probably going to suck. Since just about everything helpful ever that we could possibly say has been banned or ruled out already, there's really not much else to say.

I should elaborate: I can bring things outside of Core and Completes to the table. The Marshal player is using a Miniatures Handbook class assisted by Dragon Magic auras. I managed to grab Ferocity from Cityscape. It's just that I need to be able to present my options to the DM for approval. I just need to make sure the DM doesn't feel like I'm trying to break his game, and that I don't. So they are off by default, unless stated otherwise. I just need to know what to ask him to allow.

[Waker]

The book ban limits what I can suggest.
You could go Enlightened Fist and sneak in some Swiftblade. To offset the feat tax on Swiftblade you could take the Cobra Strike Monk from UA.
Barbarian/Monk/Fist of the Forest is simple and roleplaying appropriate. Sadly I can't think of anyway to progress the idea beyond that without using other sources, like Animal Shen from Dragon 319.
If you are willing to go old school, you could see if the DM will let you use the Red Avenger PrC from Sword and Fist. The class is basically a martial monk that uses Ki to attack and heal. Pay attention to the printing error on the attack progression for the class that they managed to overlook in the errata.
The Horizon Walker PrC might also compliment the build.

[Answerer]

I'm the only other 3.5 DM on-island.
Online play over IRC or MapTool can be very fun. It's almost guaranteed to be better than this.

[eggs]

You can switch Unearthed Arcana Fighting styles mid-progression, you just don't get the 6th level bonus abilities if you do (as they're worth caring about). That should free up a bit more room to pick and choose bonus feats.

Monk 2/Barbarian 2/Animal Devotion Cleric 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Kensai X is pretty far from the worst setup you could have for a predominantly nonmagical melee build.

[GRM13]

I love my group (the one I DM for)--I really do--but dammit, sometimes I want to be on the other side of the table.


I can sympathies with this. The main reason why I've started DMing myself was because it's been 2 years since i played a campaign and either the People where are I am are not interested enough to take initiative, or can all reach each other easily while I'm not able to so tend to get left out rather than have the one guy on Skype that can't see anything or hear everyone with all the table talk going directly to one mic.

[Thomasinx]

You might want to look at sacred fist from complete divine. It's a fun monk PrC that starts advancing a little bit of casting that you could get with a one level dip in cleric. The little bit of extra spellcasting could help you out with self-buffs...

Also, this sounds like it could be a fun class to lead into Drunken Master. (Yay for improvised weapons, since you're using VoP and wont have magic weapons anyways...) This class is surprisingly effective when you're dealing with a DM that values fluff.

[Benly]

Online play over IRC or MapTool can be very fun. It's almost guaranteed to be better than this.

Not really. I have friends I thoroughly enjoy gaming with who have their own banlists of things they just don't like - including some that would end up similar (one who dislikes ToB and psionics, for example, which would match the swordsage/tashalatora ban here.) There's a lot more that goes into making D&D fun than getting the build you want.

That said, when I'm playing in a game like that, I work out my build to suit the rules of the table. I would probably not try the build idea that the OP is using at the table he's planning to use it at, but that's his decision to make.

[TuggyNE]

4) My odds of getting Tashalatora are zero to none. That's about all that needs to be said. Do not recommend Tashalatora.

Not to be a jerk, but... technically Tash isn't the only way to mix psionics and monk. There's Ascetic Warrior, which only works for PsyWar/Monk crosses, but saves a feat. Obviously, if it's not Tashalatora that's the problem, but psionics itself, that won't help any.

I don't have a lot of experience optimizing Monks myself, so that's about all I can contribute (such as it is); it does sound like you've mostly got a good start already, though.

[Amphetryon]

Online play over IRC or MapTool can be very fun. It's almost guaranteed to be better than this.

I've no doubt you've had that experience; it's frequently been DEEPLY frustrating for me, and doesn't provide the sense of group camaraderie I often seek and see in tabletop games.

OP, while you may prefer Humans - and they are almost always at least equal to the best choice - you might consider Half-Orc in this case. This is especially true if you can cajole, wheedle, or otherwise convince you DM to allow Racial Paragon Classes, so that you can build something like Nanshork's Frozen Brawler (Link here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=252)).

[Lonely Tylenol]

I've always been a bit of a fan of the Frostrager (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3) as long as you're being a partial barbarian. It's not on your approved list, but not on your banlist either, and thematically it goes well with Fist Of The Forest. I don't have the books handy to check how the damage die increases interact, but I suspect that the two together should lead to a pretty beefy damage boost as well.

I... Can definitely ask about it. Thanks, that looks perfect.


The book ban limits what I can suggest.
You could go Enlightened Fist and sneak in some Swiftblade. To offset the feat tax on Swiftblade you could take the Cobra Strike Monk from UA.
Barbarian/Monk/Fist of the Forest is simple and roleplaying appropriate. Sadly I can't think of anyway to progress the idea beyond that without using other sources, like Animal Shen from Dragon 319.
If you are willing to go old school, you could see if the DM will let you use the Red Avenger PrC from Sword and Fist. The class is basically a martial monk that uses Ki to attack and heal. Pay attention to the printing error on the attack progression for the class that they managed to overlook in the errata.
The Horizon Walker PrC might also compliment the build.

I could try for Swiftblade with an Ascetic Monk or Carmendine Monk (the former of which is a likely yes; the latter of which is less so). My ability scores hurt for it, but... Y'know... Spellcasting. I'll look at Red Avenger.

Yeah, Barbarian/Monk/Fist of the Forest was the best thing I could think of. Until...


You can switch Unearthed Arcana Fighting styles mid-progression, you just don't get the 6th level bonus abilities if you do (as they're worth caring about). That should free up a bit more room to pick and choose bonus feats.

You can? That's... That's... SO MUCH EASIER FOR ME THAN MY CURRENT PREDICAMENT!

Although, now that I'm thinking about it, the Passive Way for two levels would still be better for every level except second: I can grab Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at 1 and 2, Combat Reflexes at 3, be Bear Totem for Toughness, Improved Grapple and Great Fortitude at 3, 4, and 5, Power Attack at 6, Weapon Focus (pimp smack) at level 9, and have both FotF and Kensai on time without being too MAD.

Or...

OK, now I need to look over the 1-2 combinations, then. Thanks, that makes this so much less difficult.


Monk 2/Barbarian 2/Animal Devotion Cleric 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Kensai X is pretty far from the worst setup you could have for a predominantly nonmagical melee build.

Where are the rules that allow you to swap domains with devotion feats? Not only does this appeal to me, but the Cleric in the group took Healing Devotion as a 1st-level feat... Which could probably be best served replacing his Healing Domain, if he's going to go that route at all.

[Empedocles]

I'm not even sure why you've made this thread. You've asked us to help you optimize a monk, then denied every single possible way to make him workable. Then you asked if you were missing any ideas.........

The last options you have here are obscenely cheesy, like incarnate construct shenanigans. Frankly, I think you should just suck it up and play a monk at this point since no routes left open to you care about optimization anyways.

[Gray Mage]

Where are the rules that allow you to swap domains with devotion feats? Not only does this appeal to me, but the Cleric in the group took Healing Devotion as a 1st-level feat... Which could probably be best served replacing his Healing Domain, if he's going to go that route at all.

Complete Champion, page 53, second paragraph of the "Clerics and domain Feats" section.

Edit: You can only trade the domain for the domain feat, though.

[Little Brother]

Go Apostle of Peace. It lets you keep non-armor magic items with defensive abilities. You can stack other effects on said items.

That's the only thing I can think that can help you. Exalted is...:smallyuk:

[Waker]

Go Apostle of Peace. It lets you keep non-armor magic items with defensive abilities. You can stack other effects on said items.

That's the only thing I can think that can help you. Exalted is...:smallyuk:
I know the Barbarian levels are only a small part of his build, but I still find the idea of a Barbarian of Peace to be amusing.

[The Underlord]

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but my honest advice is to find another DM; this one sounds terrible.

I disagree. Honestly, I think the playground needs to become more tolerant of different play styles. The general attitude here is that if the DM bans ToB or requires rolling stats, he or she is by default, terrible. Which is not true by any standards. Banning ToB or requires rolling stats does not make a DM terrible. The reason people default to "get a new DM " is because of the many horror stories from a relatively small, but vocal group. The problem is, no one goes on the Internet to talk about how great their DM is when he bans ToB or requires the rolling of stats. A DM should be judged on his in-game DMing, such as story telling and encounter design. Both of these is dependent on play style. A hack and slash is different from political intrigue which is different from a dungeon crawl, which is different from a sandbox. In a political intrigue game, for example, it would make sense to ban ToB. In a dungeon crawl, it might be cumbersome for a necromancer (minion-mancy) character. It would be fairly logical to ban a Dread Necromancer because its class features cater toward a minion-mancer. In a sandbox games, the world breaking potential of wizard might lead to it being banned

In this we also need to consider the optimization standards of the group itself. Some groups are there for a more social style. The main focus of the group isn't DnD, it's hanging out with friends. As a result, DnD isn't necessarily the main focus. These groups tend towards low-op groups. But if they have been playing long enough they might lean towards high-op. Some groups meet just for, or mainly, for DnD. These groups tend to be more experienced, so they tend toward high-op. But they might have tried it all and decided they prefer low-op games. Every groups has its own perspective. None of them is more "right" or "wrong". Yes, that means some groups might actually enjoy DMPCs. Core only is used and enjoyed as a rules set in some groups. There are groups that ban core classes and still have fun. There are groups who regularly use batman wizard and kobold cheese doesn't raise and eyebrow There are groups that regularly use VoP and still have fun. High-op isn't inherently superior to low-op. Low-op isn't inherently superior to high-op.

The "get a new DM" 'solution' has inherent flaws in it. Often, DM are a RL friend out of DnD. Saying to them "your play style is inherently wrong, so I'm not going to play with you or my other friends who aren't at fault even though we have been playing/been friends for X amount of years." DMs will often take it as an insult and will have repercussions outside the game. It affect relations with the other players by not participating in the game, and can cause a rift in your friend group. Granted we have all heard the horror story of agreeing to some random game with a DM you haven't played and the it goes horribly wrong and there is a very good reason to find a new DM. But this occurs after you have played with the DM. You often can't find a new DM. DM are practicely an endangered species. You are often lucky to find one DM and they often are reluctant.

In short, Lonely Tylenol, you don't need to get a DM, and their is nothing wrong with how you or your DM is playing. If low op is how you want to play, keep on playing

[StreamOfTheSky]

For what it's worth, since I didn't see anyone mention it yet....

Should you plan to go to monk 4 or beyond, be good or evil, do not be LN, TN, or CN. Complete Champion has an alternate class feature that trades Ki Strike (Magic) for a (Un)Holy Strike that makes all of your attacks good/evil aligned and do +1d6 damage to evil/good creatures. Pretty nice trade.

[Answerer]

Banning ToB or requires rolling stats does not make a DM terrible.
In my honest opinion, it makes the game terrible. I would not play a game where either thing was true. You're welcome to disagree, but I very clearly was offering my honest opinion.

Banning Tome of Battle is tantamount to saying that you either don't understand 3.5's problems, or don't care and think melee should suck. I don't want to play for that DM.

Rolling stats says to me that a DM doesn't care one whit about intra-party balance, and thinks that getting shafted is "fun" and "interesting" – I do not agree, and would not want to play with that DM.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Goodness! This is exploding suddenly!


You might want to look at sacred fist from complete divine. It's a fun monk PrC that starts advancing a little bit of casting that you could get with a one level dip in cleric. The little bit of extra spellcasting could help you out with self-buffs...

Also, this sounds like it could be a fun class to lead into Drunken Master. (Yay for improvised weapons, since you're using VoP and wont have magic weapons anyways...) This class is surprisingly effective when you're dealing with a DM that values fluff.

Drunken Master would work nicely. I'd have to make some leeway on the "My Body is a Temple" fluff (and probably also never take Vow of Abstinence, which I was totally going to do in light of the fact that there is nothing better for a low-attribute Exalted player to take), but I doubt he'll mind.


Not really. I have friends I thoroughly enjoy gaming with who have their own banlists of things they just don't like - including some that would end up similar (one who dislikes ToB and psionics, for example, which would match the swordsage/tashalatora ban here.) There's a lot more that goes into making D&D fun than getting the build you want.

That said, when I'm playing in a game like that, I work out my build to suit the rules of the table. I would probably not try the build idea that the OP is using at the table he's planning to use it at, but that's his decision to make.

I... Don't understand? I am making sure that I clear everything with the DM to suit the rules of the table... :smallconfused:

Or are you saying that you wouldn't play a character like that with the restraints given? I guess I could understand that. I d


Not to be a jerk, but... technically Tash isn't the only way to mix psionics and monk. There's Ascetic Warrior, which only works for PsyWar/Monk crosses, but saves a feat. Obviously, if it's not Tashalatora that's the problem, but psionics itself, that won't help any.

A combination of "Psionics are rare/don't exist" (this is not uncommon here; my game is the only one I've ever seen that has allowed Psionics, and I had to be talked into it [as I was so unfamiliar with the system that I had to learn how it worked just to understand how the builds that the player, who had years of experience with Psionics and rivals my grasp of game mechanics or better elsewhere, were doing what he said they did]) and the relative obscurity of the sourcebook it comes from (I got Ferocity from a web supplement because it was tied to Cityscape, a book the DM has, but nobody has Secrets of Sarlona, and I doubt the DM has heard of it). These are both equally true of Ascetic Warrior and Ascetic Psion, as far as I know.

I just mentioned Tashalatora because it's usually the first to come up.


OP, while you may prefer Humans - and they are almost always at least equal to the best choice - you might consider Half-Orc in this case. This is especially true if you can cajole, wheedle, or otherwise convince you DM to allow Racial Paragon Classes, so that you can build something like Nanshork's Frozen Brawler (Link here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=252)).

I'll look at the build shortly. I've no doubt I will meet resistance with Half-Orc (bearing in mind the traditional spin on Orcs in general), but could probably get it anyway.

Is there anything Half-Orc Paragon grants you that simply multiclassing in Barbarian (with continued UAS progression) doesn't? (I suppose looking up the build would tell me, but I figure I'd ask in case you knew offhand.)


I'm not even sure why you've made this thread. You've asked us to help you optimize a monk, then denied every single possible way to make him workable. Then you asked if you were missing any ideas.........

The last options you have here are obscenely cheesy, like incarnate construct shenanigans. Frankly, I think you should just suck it up and play a monk at this point since no routes left open to you care about optimization anyways.

Mostly because I have doubts that "play an Unarmed Swordsage" and "Tash out" are my only options, but am relatively unfamiliar with good PrC options for Barbarian or Monk (let a lone a Barbarian/Monk). I have 6 levels of base classes that aren't terrible together (as melee builds go), but I'm stumped on where to go from there.


Complete Champion, page 53, second paragraph of the "Clerics and domain Feats" section.

Edit: You can only trade the domain for the domain feat, though.

Thanks.


Go Apostle of Peace. It lets you keep non-armor magic items with defensive abilities. You can stack other effects on said items.

That's the only thing I can think that can help you. Exalted is...:smallyuk:

I shudder to think of what might happen if I recommended Vow of Peace to the rest of the party, let alone the DM, especially since I'm building my character after the rest of them...

...Actually... A few might go along with it.


I know the Barbarian levels are only a small part of his build, but I still find the idea of a Barbarian of Peace to be amusing.

...Maybe I should try this. :smallcool:


In short, Lonely Tylenol, you don't need to get a DM, and their is nothing wrong with how you or your DM is playing. If low op is how you want to play, keep on playing

Actually--and I do agree with everything you've said here--I personally prefer mid-high-op play myself, and the game I DM is more along those lines it's E6, but dip-friendly, allows grabbing from all splatbooks, and I help players "build up" if an optimization gap needs to be bridged). I have played with this DM before, and we have clashed before over our very different styles, and that has led to some horror stories. That's why I'm playing a "cameo-role" character instead of playing in every adventure.

I just... I dunno. I miss sitting at the table and playing a game once in awhile. I'm fine with a low-op game, and even with the history being what it was, the DM and I are on good enough terms to handle each others' play in smaller doses. I just wanna be one of the players from time to time.

[Amphetryon]

Is there anything Half-Orc Paragon grants you that simply multiclassing in Barbarian (with continued UAS progression) doesn't? (I suppose looking up the build would tell me, but I figure I'd ask in case you knew offhand.)It's available for perusal in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon); benefits include +4 to Intimidate and the ability to Rage as a straight-up Lawful character, no DM-permission for Monk/Barb needed. Additionally, taking 3 levels gives a +4 STR bonus over what you'd get with a Human on the same starting stats.

[The Underlord]

Actually--and I do agree with everything you've said here--I personally prefer mid-high-op play myself, and the game I DM is more along those lines it's E6, but dip-friendly, allows grabbing from all splatbooks, and I help players "build up" if an optimization gap needs to be bridged). I have played with this DM before, and we have clashed before over our very different styles, and that has led to some horror stories. That's why I'm playing a "cameo-role" character instead of playing in every adventure.

I just... I dunno. I miss sitting at the table and playing a game once in awhile. I'm fine with a low-op game, and even with the history being what it was, the DM and I are on good enough terms to handle each others' play in smaller doses. I just wanna be one of the players from time to time.

Like I said, neither your style, nor your DM's style is necessarily wrong. I'm glad you found a better solution than abandoning your DM altogether. I'm sure many DMs often are in the conundrum of wanting to play, but needing to DM for their group.
More in-depth response to come, but I need some sleep first.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Like I said, neither your style, nor your DM's style is necessarily wrong. I'm glad you found a better solution than abandoning your DM altogether. I'm sure many DMs often are in the conundrum of wanting to play, but needing to DM for their group.
More in-depth response to come, but I need some sleep first.

Yeah, it's kind of a crappy bind to be in. :smallyuk:

[Garwain]

totemist tends to blend well with VoP and the poor monk.

and I always suggest Drunken Master from CW, just beause I find the fluff hilarious. Just don't take vow of abstinence.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I am loath to learn Incarnum, just because it's new to me, but in lieu of the circumstances I think it's definitely worth a look.

The DM said Kensai is out (I think he suspected I was trying to have my cake and eat it too with the Vow of Poverty + enchanted fists), so I no longer need Combat Expertise (but may still want it), and definitely no longer care about Weapon Focus (pimp smack). Fist of the Forest, however, is definitely in.

Possible 1/2 feat combinations:

Improved Grapple + Combat Reflexes (Denying Stance + Denying Stance)
Combat Reflexes + Improved Trip (Invisible Eye + Passive Way)
Combat Reflexes + Improved Initiative (Invisible Eye + Sleeping Tiger)
Power Attack + Combat Reflexes (Overwhelming Attack + Denying Stance)
Power Attack + Improved Trip (Overwhelming Attack + Passive Way)
Combat Expertise + Improved Trip (Passive Way + Passive Way)

Ideally, I think I would like a totem that complements (but does not overlap with) my selection, for the purposes of my feat selection. For instance, if I grab Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, I would probably grab Bear Totem (for Great Fortitude, which is a prereq for Fist of the Forest, and Improved Grapple, which can be nifty); if I grabbed Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes (and +2 to Tumble), I'd go with Wolf Totem, grabbing the prerequisites at 3 and 6 and trading the Fast Movement for Improved Grab. I'm honestly not sure how I'm going to do this; the build needs Combat Reflexes, Fist of the Forest needs Great Fortitude and Power Attack, and I would like Improved Trip (which I can only get as a bonus feat) and Improved Grapple (which I can get whenever). I'm guessing Invisible Eye/Passive Way into Bear Totem is the way to go here?

[Benly]

I... Don't understand? I am making sure that I clear everything with the DM to suit the rules of the table... :smallconfused:

Or are you saying that you wouldn't play a character like that with the restraints given? I guess I could understand that.

Basically, it sounds like you had a character idea and realized it wasn't well-suited to the rule set the DM wants to play with. Under the circumstances, I would probably have thought to see if there was another character concept I'd enjoy playing in the campaign that wouldn't be strained by the GM's preferred banlist. At least, that's the general vibe I get from your OP, which can be largely summarized as "I know this build is problematic, and the usual solutions aren't available."

That said, if the character idea really sings to you as ideal within the campaign's story and setting, I heartily approve of trying to optimize within constraints. Despite someone saying earlier that "there's nothing you can do with optimization within these constraints", there's definitely a gap between straight monk and a monk/barb/Frostrager/Fist Of The Forest, and seeing how much you can do with what you have at the table is, to me, where the interesting part of optimization lives.

(Incidentally, my favorite silly trick with a Frostrager is to also pick up the Blazing Berserker feat from Sandstorm. I'm frozen and on fire!)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Basically, it sounds like you had a character idea and realized it wasn't well-suited to the rule set the DM wants to play with. Under the circumstances, I would probably have thought to see if there was another character concept I'd enjoy playing in the campaign that wouldn't be strained by the GM's preferred banlist. At least, that's the general vibe I get from your OP, which can be largely summarized as "I know this build is problematic, and the usual solutions aren't available."

That said, if the character idea really sings to you as ideal within the campaign's story and setting, I heartily approve of trying to optimize within constraints. Despite someone saying earlier that "there's nothing you can do with optimization within these constraints", there's definitely a gap between straight monk and a monk/barb/Frostrager/Fist Of The Forest, and seeing how much you can do with what you have at the table is, to me, where the interesting part of optimization lives.

(Incidentally, my favorite silly trick with a Frostrager is to also pick up the Blazing Berserker feat from Sandstorm. I'm frozen and on fire!)

Oh. Yeah, I guess that's about right.

Also, Blazing Berserker with Frostrager? Clever.

[killianh]

For anything build wise I can think of considering the ban list it seems the other playgrounder's and you have it covered. Only other thing I might suggest is either going with a Dragonborn Water Orc or (since you like humans) Strongheart Halfling.

The DBW orc will give big strength and Con boosts (but take penalties to the other stats) and the Strongheart gives you everything you like about Humans, except small with +1 AC and BAB

[killianh]

EDIT: accidental double post

[The Underlord]

In my honest opinion, it makes the game terrible. I would not play a game where either thing was true. You're welcome to disagree, but I very clearly was offering my honest opinion.

Banning Tome of Battle is tantamount to saying that you either don't understand 3.5's problems, or don't care and think melee should suck. I don't want to play for that DM.

Rolling stats says to me that a DM doesn't care one whit about intra-party balance, and thinks that getting shafted is "fun" and "interesting" – I do not agree, and would not want to play with that DM.
ToB- To me the problem with 3.5 isn't that me lee classes are underpowered, it is that magic classes are too powerful. While there are sme melee classes that would be considered underpowered(such as the monk, honestly, outside core there are enough ways to build a fighter that would be more tier 4 ish) mechanically, the problem with spellcasters will aris emainly if you play them as problems. If you summon creatures more powerful than the fighter on a regular basis, that might make the fighter obsolete. If you regularly destroy encounters with SoS and SoDs before the others can contribute, it would make threat of the party feel worthless. You don't have to play like this(Playing God would be agood example, as IIRC God makes the others do their job better through BFC, debuffing, and/or buffing). The problems arise because you CAN play like that.

Banning ToB also doesn't mean you think melee should suck. You still have spike tripping fighters, pouncing barbarians, swift hunters, mystic rangers (granted, DM who bans ToB is likely to ban dragon magazine too) and passive way monks(IIRC it is the one that gets improved trip for free). Most of them don't suck as potential options. There are even more like dungeon crasher, zhenterim(no idea how to spell that) fighter, and shock trooper. There are many melee options outside of ToB if you look for them.

As far as rolling stats, they do have the potential to come out terribly. Most DMs though will let you reroll or change your stats. I was in a pbp once and we had to roll stats and on my second roll, I got nothing above a 14. The DM agreed to change one of my rolls to an 18 because he thought it would be interesting to see someone play with a 6 in a stat. I thought that would be fun so I agrees. I put the 6 in charisma and basically role played him as autistic.Of course, some won't let you reroll, as we have seen in many horror stories. If they won't let you reroll to get decent stats, you might not want to play with them. Strict DMs can often result in railroaded games, as we all have seen.

If you want to continue discussing this topic, we should make a new thread for it.

[ThiagoMartell]

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but my honest advice is to find another DM; this one sounds terrible.

...Why does he sound terrible? :smallconfused:

[Answerer]

If you want to continue discussing this topic, we should make a new thread for it.
I have absolutely no desire to do so. It's been done a thousand times.

I will only point out that you are making something of a false dilemma with your first response. It is my opinion that spellcasters are overpowered and mundanes are underpowered. Tome of Battle does not even remotely bring martial characters up to the level of full spellcasters.

[ThiagoMartell]

How about a Beaststrike+Eldritch Claw warlock? There all sorts of neat tricks that fit in with the 'powered by rage' type monk if you have access to invocations. :smallsmile:
Since Dragon Magazine is not allowed, this is not possible.


With all respect to different DMing styles, different group expectations and needs, and all that other jazz... this pretty much sums it up.
Sorry, Jarian, but that is hardly respectful. Neither your nor Answerer has ever played under this guy. He is horrible because he bans a book and sticks to written fluff? :smallconfused: LonelyTylenol talked to the guy and he made several concessions (allowed Barbarian with a refluff, allowed trading Barbarian proficiencies for Monk damage progression, etc).


I disagree. Honestly, I think the playground needs to become more tolerant of different play styles. The general attitude here is that if the DM bans ToB or requires rolling stats, he or she is by default, terrible. Which is not true by any standards. Banning ToB or requires rolling stats does not make a DM terrible. The reason people default to "get a new DM " is because of the many horror stories from a relatively small, but vocal group. The problem is, no one goes on the Internet to talk about how great their DM is when he bans ToB or requires the rolling of stats.
You know what is interesting? Let's look at the probably most beloved campaign in the playground - SilverClawShift's halloween campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836). We have... no ToB. The characters have low to no equipment. The characters are not optimized (Swashbuckler/Duskblade, a Dragon Shaman, a Rogue in an undead heavy campaign). The DM makes it work. The game looks awesome.
If SilverClawShift came to the Playground and said "guys, there is this new campaign, no ToB, low wealth, I'm thinking about playing a Rogue, though there might be some undead" he would get plenty of "find another DM, this one sucks" answers.
Be a bit more open minded, people.



You already know what you can do, and you've done it. It's probably going to suck. Since just about everything helpful ever that we could possibly say has been banned or ruled out already, there's really not much else to say.
How do you guys even know it's going to suck?
In all fairness, I know this DM LonelyTylenol is talking about did terrible things in the past. I wouldn't advise LonelyTylenol to play again under this guy. But since he decided to be the better man, I don't think it's wise or helpful to say "don't play at all".

[animewatcha]

It has been said that specific things are not allowed unless convinced etc. Dragon Magazine 310 ( only ask for specific thing ) has a raging monk variant that might help the barb character a little bit.

[Waker]

I've have this idea before, but forgot about it until right before I went to sleep, but you know what class makes Monks happy?
Dervish from CWar. In order to qualify you should take the Versatile Unarmed Strike from PHBII. Perform is already a class skill for monks for some reason. The feat tax of Dodge and Mobility can be paid by being a Cobra Strike Monk.
Now what does the class get you? Glad you asked. The class can take advantage of full base attack progression, increased hit/damage with slashing weapons (Knife Hand!), taking a 10 on several movement related skills, a few bonus feats and a few other goodies.
Fluff-wise it also fits since Dervishes tend to come from more primative societies. Also who doesn't want this conversation to happen at some point,
DM: The hordes of the undead are innumerable. Their staggering forms stretch as far as the eye can see and their moans and screams echo across the plains.
Figher: I charge the monsters enumerating the deeds of my forefathers.
Wizard: I raise walls of stone and fire to channel the undead into a kill zone.
You: I start dancing.

[The Underlord]

You know what is interesting? Let's look at the probably most beloved campaign in the playground - SilverClawShift's halloween campaign. We have... no ToB. The characters have low to no equipment. The characters are not optimized (Swashbuckler/Duskblade, a Dragon Shaman, a Rogue in an undead heavy campaign). The DM makes it work. The game looks awesome.
If SilverClawShift came to the Playground and said "guys, there is this new campaign, no ToB, low wealth, I'm thinking about playing a Rogue, though there might be some undead" he would get plenty of "find another DM, this one sucks" answers.
Be a bit more open minded, people.

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but I'll assume you are since what you said was more or less what I was trying to say.

[eggs]

Can we leave aside how terrible the DM may or may not be? I'm not sure it's going to help here.

What's probably more useful and less pointlessly dickish is to look at how to deal with the limits VoP puts on an unarmed melee build.
The biggest losses through magic items are flight, perception (specifically anti-invisibility) and tactical movement (specifically anti-BC).

First and easiest for just about everything is going into Sacred, Enlightened, or Psionic Fist PrCs; even after sinking 2-4 levels in Monk/Barbarian, casting is still the most efficient way of doing things. Suel Arcanamach, Warmind, Knight of the Weave and Chameleon can all be similarly useful, though not Monk-specific. Each of them has a variety of ways to cover VoP's deficiencies; I don't think they're worth spelling out individually.

Easy ways I can see of gaining Flight:

Animal Devotion: 1 level of Cleric with 10 Cha gets 2 uses/day; 3 with a second domain swapped out (requires specific DM judgement, but Scalykind or Transformation domains wouldn't be too tough to pitch).
Alter Self: About the only real benefit of Tattooed Monk.
Dragonborn: The gp cost of the ritual may or may not be prohibitive.


Easy ways I can see of gaining Perception abilities (specifically anti-Invisibility before ECL 18):

See the Unseen: available from a 1-level Warlock dip (requires Chaotic Good)
Pierce Magical Concealment: Negates Invisibility-based concealment; still need to locate invisible enemies, but a cranked Spot/Listen scores (and Clarity of Vision skill trick) can help there.
Combat Awareness: Again, doesn't help locating enemies, but does give blindsense 5ft once the listen check works. Steep and mostly useless prerequisites.
Faerie Fire: Available from a level-dip in Druid or Cleric (Moon Domain)


Easy ways of getting Tactical Movement (specifically anti-Battlefield Control before ECL 14):

Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop): 10 ft teleport as a swift action for 1 PP; Adds 2 PP to power point pool.
Travel Devotion: Use a Swift action to move; can use to brute force your way around obstacles or set up for a pouncing charge.
Travel Domain: limited Freedom of movement for a number of rounds equal to Cleric levels. Useful from a dip, but probably not as useful as the other things Cleric 1 can give.
Abrupt Jaunt: a 1-level Wizard dip gives number of daily immediate action teleports equal to Int bonus. Would be difficult to use well without Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius.
Benign Transposition: Swap places with an ally or allied creature (Familiar, Wild Cohort, etc.) Even with 11 Cha, a Stalwart Sorcerer dip would give 3 uses/day (as well as Weapon Focus for Kensai and a Familiar or Crappy Expendable Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) to swap with).


If anyone could add to this (either problems to solve or inexpensive ways to solve them), I think it would be useful.

[Waker]

Well, one way you could address the issues that eggs brings up is to see if you can do a quest (or have the quest assumed as your background) to become a Dragonborn. One of the advantages is that if you race grants a non-specific feat (like human) you can lose any feat, such as an Exalted one. Allowing you to take the Dragonborn template later on. Though it would be easier to just take the template right away and assume you took the Vow of Poverty later, even if it does lose you a feat.
Enlightened Fist is very easy to get into. You only need a 1 level dip into Wizard or Sorcerer and take Practiced Spellcaster to meet the casting requirements.
In addition to addressing the BFC countering, you might consider Sudden Shift instead of Abrupt Jaunt. With the speed boost that monks get, you can take advantage and climb/fly/swim quite a bit in a round.

[Rickshaw]

Monks have always had a special place in my games :smalltongue: and I've always wanted to play a monk with VOP. so despite all the other limitations, at least you get that!

now, as far as minor optimizations go, you might try to see if you can get The Quintessential Monk on the allowed list. there's a lot of things in there that have lots of fun fluff, and some weird crunch. the best part though, is that it is all available online. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Quintessential_Monk)

the iron legs kickboxer has always been one of my favorite PrCs for monks, because it turns your unarmed strikes into a 18-20 crit range (15-20 if you take improved critical, which it specifically lists being compatibal) with x3 damage, all for five levels. I think it would fit will with the idea of unleashing incredible power in short controlled bursts, and being a bit of a scary dude.

another one that might be fun is the enlightened scholar. you probably arent gonna want to go the whole 5 lvls (...longer life? really? when is that EVER used?) but it does have some cool zen-ish stuff to it, like being in a constant meditative state, etc.

just some fun things ^^ hope it helps!

[Salanmander]

I have to say, I'm pretty proud of the playground for this thread. Sure, there's been a fair bit of "wait, you banned all the options that might make that not suck!", and derailing to whether the DM style is appropriate...

but at the end of the day, a lot of people stepped up, abided by the restrictions of the OP, and still came up with a wide variety of good suggestions. Good job guys, let's keep being more like this in the future.

[Waker]

I have to say, I'm pretty proud of the playground for this thread. Sure, there's been a fair bit of "wait, you banned all the options that might make that not suck!", and derailing to whether the DM style is appropriate...

but at the end of the day, a lot of people stepped up, abided by the restrictions of the OP, and still came up with a wide variety of good suggestions. Good job guys, let's keep being more like this in the future.
While the restrictions are a bit bothersome, I'm more of a middle of the road optimizer anyways, so my goal is never making a character capable of soloing ECL>CR threats. I find these kind of character-building goals to be somewhat amusing. Especially if it gives me the chance to advertise a silly character idea.

[killem2]

So I understand the vow is your choice, based on how you think the DM might lay out the encounters right?

I know you said you won't remove it, which is cool, I'm not here to tell anyone how to play their own characters to that degree, but if your only reason for taking it is to off set the possibility in lack of itemization later on, why not focus more on feats that will aid you through out combat, multiclass into prestige classes that help the monk. (god knows there are a crap ton of them out there)

Did you DM say there is a limit to PRCs or backgrounds needed, ect? Just wondering.

I bet a decent monk could be had with fist of the forest, and dragon msyteries thing from the bonus to the monk aspects.

I would just hate to see you invest in a vow monk, and then have it it turn out the DM changes his mind, or at least has a bit more items than you anticipating that would be available the thus scales the fights to such a thing.

[Talya]

Yes. (NO.)

I just needed to point out your thread title confused the frak out of me.

[Rickshaw]

oh hey that reminds me, another vow that might be fun - vow of nudity xD

I've got a backup character that uses vow (beguiler, just so you know,) that I use if ever I have a character die early in a session with no quick way to bring em back. she's quite fun ;D

[Lonely Tylenol]

I've have this idea before, but forgot about it until right before I went to sleep, but you know what class makes Monks happy?
Dervish from CWar. In order to qualify you should take the Versatile Unarmed Strike from PHBII. Perform is already a class skill for monks for some reason. The feat tax of Dodge and Mobility can be paid by being a Cobra Strike Monk.
Now what does the class get you? Glad you asked. The class can take advantage of full base attack progression, increased hit/damage with slashing weapons (Knife Hand!), taking a 10 on several movement related skills, a few bonus feats and a few other goodies.
Fluff-wise it also fits since Dervishes tend to come from more primative societies. Also who doesn't want this conversation to happen at some point,
DM: The hordes of the undead are innumerable. Their staggering forms stretch as far as the eye can see and their moans and screams echo across the plains.
Figher: I charge the monsters enumerating the deeds of my forefathers.
Wizard: I raise walls of stone and fire to channel the undead into a kill zone.
You: I start dancing.

Hah! I never thought about it, but I guess it could work well. I'd definitely have to change a few things (like getting rid of the Decisive Strike ACF and the whole "reactive fighting style" shtick and going back to standard Flurry of Blows), but it could work.


The biggest losses through magic items are flight, perception (specifically anti-invisibility) and tactical movement (specifically anti-BC).

First and easiest for just about everything is going into Sacred, Enlightened, or Psionic Fist PrCs; even after sinking 2-4 levels in Monk/Barbarian, casting is still the most efficient way of doing things. Suel Arcanamach, Warmind, Knight of the Weave and Chameleon can all be similarly useful, though not Monk-specific. Each of them has a variety of ways to cover VoP's deficiencies; I don't think they're worth spelling out individually.

I'm looking intensely at Sacred Fist; although I would like to, if possible, play Monk 2/Barbarian 4/Fist of the Forest 3 on the front, I can see how that might cause some, eh, problems for me.


Easy ways I can see of gaining Flight:

Animal Devotion: 1 level of Cleric with 10 Cha gets 2 uses/day; 3 with a second domain swapped out (requires specific DM judgement, but Scalykind or Transformation domains wouldn't be too tough to pitch).
Alter Self: About the only real benefit of Tattooed Monk.
Dragonborn: The gp cost of the ritual may or may not be prohibitive.


Yeah, right now being a LG Cleric of Bralm, NG Cleric of Phaulkon, or a CG Cleric of Vatun is looking pretty appealing (Bralm and Vatun also offer the Strength domains, and Phaulkon offers War). The only problem is, I have two good stats (a 15 and 16) and only one more that breaks ten (a 12), so finding the ability scores to actually *have* Turn Undead uses or divine spells will be difficult! (If my 7th-level Vow of Poverty ability boost is WIS, I can keep up. But only then.)

Tattooed Monk shot up quite a bit when I realized that the Chameleon tattoo could allow me to transform into an Avariel (which may or may not exist in this game) or a Raptoran (which definitely, objectively does). It gets all sorts of crazy if the DM allows me to become a Saint by virtue of being all virtuous and Exalted and what-have-you, because then I could conceivably transform into a Ravid or a Mephit, although I seriously doubt that this is going to ever happen.


Easy ways I can see of gaining Perception abilities (specifically anti-Invisibility before ECL 18):

See the Unseen: available from a 1-level Warlock dip (requires Chaotic Good)
Pierce Magical Concealment: Negates Invisibility-based concealment; still need to locate invisible enemies, but a cranked Spot/Listen scores (and Clarity of Vision skill trick) can help there.
Combat Awareness: Again, doesn't help locating enemies, but does give blindsense 5ft once the listen check works. Steep and mostly useless prerequisites.
Faerie Fire: Available from a level-dip in Druid or Cleric (Moon Domain)


Ouch. Hm... The Druid in the party is Faerie Fire-happy? I've got nothing here.


Easy ways of getting Tactical Movement (specifically anti-Battlefield Control before ECL 14):

Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop): 10 ft teleport as a swift action for 1 PP; Adds 2 PP to power point pool.
Travel Devotion: Use a Swift action to move; can use to brute force your way around obstacles or set up for a pouncing charge.
Travel Domain: limited Freedom of movement for a number of rounds equal to Cleric levels. Useful from a dip, but probably not as useful as the other things Cleric 1 can give.
Abrupt Jaunt: a 1-level Wizard dip gives number of daily immediate action teleports equal to Int bonus. Would be difficult to use well without Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius.
Benign Transposition: Swap places with an ally or allied creature (Familiar, Wild Cohort, etc.) Even with 11 Cha, a Stalwart Sorcerer dip would give 3 uses/day (as well as Weapon Focus for Kensai and a Familiar or Crappy Expendable Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) to swap with).


My ability scores make the caster ones difficult. Combining what was said before, a CG Cleric of Procan would offer both the Animal and Travel domains (which I could swap out for Devotions), although I don't have the Turn Undead uses to fuel either.

This is all making me want to build this character with Point Buy, or at least a reroll with the hopes of a third good stat... I think it would open up a lot of the cooler options here.


Well, one way you could address the issues that eggs brings up is to see if you can do a quest (or have the quest assumed as your background) to become a Dragonborn. One of the advantages is that if you race grants a non-specific feat (like human) you can lose any feat, such as an Exalted one. Allowing you to take the Dragonborn template later on. Though it would be easier to just take the template right away and assume you took the Vow of Poverty later, even if it does lose you a feat.
Enlightened Fist is very easy to get into. You only need a 1 level dip into Wizard or Sorcerer and take Practiced Spellcaster to meet the casting requirements.
In addition to addressing the BFC countering, you might consider Sudden Shift instead of Abrupt Jaunt. With the speed boost that monks get, you can take advantage and climb/fly/swim quite a bit in a round.

I'll have to ask the DM about becoming a Dragonborn of Bahamut. My character fulfills all the prerequisites (and it makes sense for it to happen), but this DM has reduced the prevalence of dragons to "old wives' tales" in the past, so the option might be off entirely. Wings is just generally a solid option to take, but if I go Tattooed Monk with the Chameleon tattoo, I might be able to safely go Mind, and grab Pierce Magical Concealment in the doing.

[Snowbluff]

Seconding Warlock with Eldritch Claws. Bonus Points for Beast Strike.

I hate monks. The very thought of someone playing one fills me with an inhumane rage that can only be sated by the fresh blood of gingers. :smallannoyed:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Seconding Warlock with Eldritch Claws. Bonus Points for Beast Strike.

I hate monks. The very thought of someone playing one fills me with an inhumane rage that can only be sated by the fresh blood of gingers. :smallannoyed:

I'm... Sorry that my 2-level Monk dip fills you with unhumane rage? :smallconfused:

Beast Strike is Dragon Magazine, and so are Eldritch Claws.

[Waker]

Seconding Warlock with Eldritch Claws. Bonus Points for Beast Strike.
Poster isn't allowed Dragon magazine, so no eldritch claws.

Be a Dervish Monk! You get Dance Pounce! Don't you wanna punch someone in the face and then boogie on over to the next bad guy and kick him in the groove thang? It's one of the only ways that you can combine the monks increased speed with flurry of blows.

[Snowbluff]

I'm... Sorry that my 2-level Monk dip fills you with unhumane rage? :smallconfused:

Beast Strike is Dragon Magazine, and so are Eldritch Claws.

Sorry, must of missed the no Dragon in the OP. Also, I meant inhuman. We could make inhumane if we want to get nasty on the details, but this site is rated PG! :smallsmile:

Monk is non-functioning in you build unless you capitalize on Wisdom focus. If you work on the wis to AC and Wis to hit, I would say this is working. I have a hard time imagining you accomplishing anything worse with a Fighter2 dip. Are fighters banned? :smallconfused:

Still, there doesn't seem to be much point if you'll take Imp Trip but let your BaB slack. Even a little.

[Vegan Zombie]

Rolling stats says to me that a DM doesn't care one whit about intra-party balance, and thinks that getting shafted is "fun" and "interesting" – I do not agree, and would not want to play with that DM.

My group has always rolled for stats and never complained. After their stats are rolled, my players have the option of scraping them and rolling fresh, until they get some decent stats they're comfortable with.

But to each his own. I've never played a game with point buy.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Sorry, must of missed the no Dragon in the OP. Also, I meant inhuman. We could make inhumane if we want to get nasty on the details, but this site is rated PG! :smallsmile:

Monk is non-functioning in you build unless you capitalize on Wisdom focus. If you work on the wis to AC and Wis to hit, I would say this is working. I have a hard time imagining you accomplishing anything worse with a Fighter2 dip. Are fighters banned? :smallconfused:

Still, there doesn't seem to be much point if you'll take Imp Trip but let your BaB slack. Even a little.

Well, Decisive Strike trades Flurry for the ability to do twice as much damage on your single attack and all attacks of opportunity that follow, so there's that. The fact that I'm also grabbing Improved Grapple, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes in the first few levels makes a STR- and DEX-based build less painful, especially since the build is already built around AoOs.

Without a Monk or Barbarian dip, Improved Trip isn't even a thing, because I have only two stats that are more than 12, and you can bet that they aren't INT. Since Wolf Totem isn't guaranteed on the side of the Barbarian, that necessitates Monk levels even more. Since Trip is a Str check, and not an opposed attack roll like Grapple (which is a secondary/tertiary thing), the only thing the 1 missed point of BAB matters for is the touch attack, and since when has a touch attack not been laughably easy to hit for a Wizard, let alone a dedicated (almost) full BAB melee?

EDIT: I missed these.


So I understand the vow is your choice, based on how you think the DM might lay out the encounters right?

I know you said you won't remove it, which is cool, I'm not here to tell anyone how to play their own characters to that degree, but if your only reason for taking it is to off set the possibility in lack of itemization later on, why not focus more on feats that will aid you through out combat, multiclass into prestige classes that help the monk. (god knows there are a crap ton of them out there)

Did you DM say there is a limit to PRCs or backgrounds needed, ect? Just wondering.

I bet a decent monk could be had with fist of the forest, and dragon msyteries thing from the bonus to the monk aspects.

I would just hate to see you invest in a vow monk, and then have it it turn out the DM changes his mind, or at least has a bit more items than you anticipating that would be available the thus scales the fights to such a thing.

The DM has not said that there is a limit to the number of PRCs one can take, but they are being restricted by fluff/background/setting/direction/book access, so it's safe to assume that a Flurry of PRC Dips is also out.

My concern with Vow of Poverty is that, between my desire to play a wandering monk, the DM's interpretation of all wandering monks as being poor, my not being a full-time member of the party and the likelihood that I won't be able to enter back into play after, say, a missed level or two with any more than I left with in the case of an extended absence, and the party less likely to spend money helping me out if I'm part-time, I will never have enough to even match up with standard Vow of Poverty.


Yes. (NO.)

I just needed to point out your thread title confused the frak out of me.

I do what I can. :smallwink:

I just wanted to be sure that this didn't turn into a discussion of "don't play a Monk, play an Unarmed Swordsage" or "don't take Vow of Poverty, use WBL to buy X, Y and Z", because neither are realistic.

[Talya]

I hate monks. The very thought of someone playing one fills me with an inhumane rage that can only be sated by the fresh blood of gingers. :smallannoyed:

You are playing a dangerous game, there, boy. We gingers are dangerous.

http://www.ohmz.net/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/4b348e6aa3b64817d2e173b9b93c2ad1.jpg

[Spuddles]

I've played a higher op monk/barb this year, and there's quite a bit of support out there. Pick up extra rage from complete warrior and reckless rage from races of stone if you can. Bear warrior from complete champion is totally worth the dip (fits nicely with VoP), as is a level or 3 in fist of the forest.

Righteous Wrath is worth picking up as an exalted feat. If you have the feats, frenzied berserker is hilarious. Maybe convince your DM that righteous wrath lets you keep your mind in a frenzy.

If you somehow have thr feats to burn, primeval is a great prestige class to enter at higher levels. I would pick a bear form for primeval, just so you can claim that you get so angry, you become two bears (bear warrior + primeval form).

Your stats aren't great, but they'll do. I would put the 16 in wis and not dex, an prioritize con over strength. Let stacking rage effects make up for a relatively low str.

VoP isn't terrible, as long as your DM isn't a **** about flyers and stuff.

[Snowbluff]

You are playing a dangerous game, there, boy. We gingers are dangerous.

http://www.ohmz.net/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/4b348e6aa3b64817d2e173b9b93c2ad1.jpg

You sould be wondering why I know it helps me calm down. :smallamused:


Well, Decisive Strike trades Flurry for the ability to do twice as much damage on your single attack and all attacks of opportunity that follow, so there's that. The fact that I'm also grabbing Improved Grapple, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes in the first few levels makes a STR- and DEX-based build less painful, especially since the build is already built around AoOs.

Without a Monk or Barbarian dip, Improved Trip isn't even a thing, because I have only two stats that are more than 12, and you can bet that they aren't INT. Since Wolf Totem isn't guaranteed on the side of the Barbarian, that necessitates Monk levels even more. Since Trip is a Str check, and not an opposed attack roll like Grapple (which is a secondary/tertiary thing), the only thing the 1 missed point of BAB matters for is the touch attack, and since when has a touch attack not been laughably easy to hit for a Wizard, let alone a dedicated (almost) full BAB melee?



Finally something makes sense. Seriously, the only good thing you had going for Monk you turned into another good thing.

I'm still really angry though. A very regrettable promise I made is preventing me from inflicting immense bodily on one of the two the soulless beasts I know.

And the other is my ex. :smallwink:

[Averis Vol]

if you would be willing to switch to a dwarf you could pick up the hammer fists feat from Races of faerun. str 1 1/2 on attacks so 2:1 return on PA. all u lose is the ability to flurry (which you don't have btw) you can always fit it in as fluff as the traditional fighting style of your kin. other then that I can only suggest the guantlet of the dwarven forge from Cwar, grants an extra 1d6+10 fire damage to enemies you touch (aka punch the hell out of) all for 24k; and the best part is you can have it up all day.

[Fineous Orlon]

I disagree. Honestly, I think the playground needs to become more tolerant of different play styles. The general attitude here is that if the DM bans ToB or requires rolling stats, he or she is by default, terrible. Which is not true by any standards.

I am sorry, I must disagree, there are many such standards by which that would be true. Requiring the rolling of stats is terrible DMing, and bad game design. Ceteris parebis, there is very little in a campaign type game that woould make up for having the worst first 6 rolls at your table other than the willingness to be the table monkey. Even if all other things are not equal, what if you are NOT the best roleplayer, or NOT the best optimizer, or NOT the best tactically...?

It's a fantasy role-playing game. If I had a fantasy about a character who was suboptimal compared to the people around him or her, I could watch any of half a dozen sitcoms and be done with it.

"Here's your randomly rolled leaky rowboat, with, let's see, 1 oar! Have fun, just like everyone else! We're meeting over at the Island of Meaningful Contribution! [Other characters turn keys, hoist sails, and cast off]

See you soon!"

There is one thing I can imagine that controls for rolling a low point value-equivalent of stats compared to your table-mates, using the tier system for classes. It would involve low point-value characters selecting from the highest tiers [tier 1 and 2] of classes, while those who rolled better could choose from the lower tiers.

[The Underlord]

I am sorry, I must disagree, there are many such standards by which that would be true. Requiring the rolling of stats is terrible DMing, and bad game design. Ceteris parebis, there is very little in a campaign type game that woould make up for having the worst first 6 rolls at your table other than the willingness to be the table monkey. Even if all other things are not equal, what if you are NOT the best roleplayer, or NOT the best optimizer, or NOT the best tactically...?

It's a fantasy role-playing game. If I had a fantasy about a character who was suboptimal compared to the people around him or her, I could watch any of half a dozen sitcoms and be done with it.

"Here's your randomly rolled leaky rowboat, with, let's see, 1 oar! Have fun, just like everyone else! We're meeting over at the Island of Meaningful Contribution! [Other characters turn keys, hoist sails, and cast off]

See you soon!"

There is one thing I can imagine that controls for rolling a low point value-equivalent of stats compared to your table-mates, using the tier system for classes. It would involve low point-value characters selecting from the highest tiers [tier 1 and 2] of classes, while those who rolled better could choose from the lower tiers.

I don't really want to continue this, but if you want to, either make a new thread or PM. Let's not bog this thread down.

[Fineous Orlon]

{Scrubbed}

[Answerer]

It's a good synergy, but a Monk/Dervish still isn't a terribly effective combatant.

[Waker]

It's a good synergy, but a Monk/Dervish still isn't a terribly effective combatant.

Hardly the best combination, but I think it's one of the better ones that doesn't involve Monk 2/Anything else X. Nice to be able to play a class that relies on mobility and lets you use flurry of blows. Also come on, dancing.

[animewatcha]

Well if you do gestault. You can go one side of monk / dervish. Otherside, full duskblade.

Dancing while channeling slay living.

[Answerer]

Well if you do gestault. You can go one side of monk / dervish. Otherside, full duskblade.

Dancing while channeling slay living.
Now this...

...is probably not legal by strict RAW, since I'm pretty sure Arcane Channeling specifies a normal full-attack, which neither Flurry of Blows nor Dervish Dance is (for that matter, can you actually combine Flurry and the Dance?), but I don't care, because...

this...

...and is kind of problematic just because the full-attack version of Arcane Disciple doesn't come until 13th, but...

this...

is awesome.

[animewatcha]

Only once per encounter and certain times per day but hey maybe homebrew feat to allow for extra. 9th gets rid of fatigue ( probably will find some other way to real with it anyway )

Dervish side is legal since it says you can take a full attack action ( melee weapons only ) and still move up to your speed. Can even tumble as part of the movement to avoid the AoOs that it provokes. Bonuses for slashing weapon versatile unarmed strike ).

Duskblade says can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action Affecting each target you hit. blah blah blah.

Basically, everything is legal.

You can dance while flurrying and channeling touch spells.


If you wanna be perverted, you can be a male 'dancing' while flurry-groping women's breasts/ass/crotch ( unarmed strike ) while channeling ghoul touch ( paralyze ) or heck vampiric.

First one, with line "I can't help it if I have that effect on women."

Second one. "Don't insult the martial arts style of Dancing Tiger, Deadly Groper."

[ThiagoMartell]

It's a good synergy, but a Monk/Dervish still isn't a terribly effective combatant.

Dervish Dance at least solves the Monk's mobility issues X times a day.
Of course, I think you need Weapon Focus (scimitar) to qualify, and Monks are not proficient.



Now this...

...is probably not legal by strict RAW, since I'm pretty sure Arcane Channeling specifies a normal full-attack, which neither Flurry of Blows nor Dervish Dance is (for that matter, can you actually combine Flurry and the Dance?), but I don't care, because...
It is. Arcane channeling just specifies a full attack, and both flurry of blows and dervish dance require a full attack to trigger.


Now this......and is kind of problematic just because the full-attack version of Arcane Disciple doesn't come until 13th, but...
I think Slay Living only comes online a bit later, even.


Now this...this...

is awesome.
Indeed. Awesome.


Well if you do gestault. You can go one side of monk / dervish. Otherside, full duskblade.

Dancing while channeling slay living.
While you dance, sing.
Roses are red, violets are blue
Omae wa mo
Shindeiru
Violets are blue, roses are red
I don't have to tell you
You're already dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_40dqtKtZb8)

[Fineous Orlon]

Dervish Dance at least solves the Monk's mobility issues X times a day.
Of course, I think you need Weapon Focus (scimitar) to qualify, and Monks are not proficient.

Weapon focus in any slashing weapon will do, in unarmed strike should count if one has taken versatile unarmed strike [slashing].