Feats/Weapon for a large Bodyguard type?

[reddir]

Mechanically, I am looking at a Large-sized Bodyguard type. Currently, I am thinking reach weapons to stop/trip at a distance, maybe knock-back feats at close range. Suggestions?

My aim is to make a character that prevents enemies from engaging with the one(s) he is protecting. It may be that "A good offense is the best defense," but this character explicitly (by agreement with the GM) is not concerned with damage, just preventing attacks on his people.

This character very specifically carries a shield, probably a Tower Shield.

My thoughts:
* 1: is to keep enemies as far away as possible.
* * 1a: I found feats that allow using a normally 2-H reach weapon with a shield.
* * 1b: There seem to be a few feats that allow choking up on reach weapons to use them close in.
* 2: make them stop at the max reach of my character's weapons.
* 3: trip the enemies, so they are forced to spend a move action trying to get up.
* 4: try to get AoOs every time they try to move closer
* 5: 'Knock-back' the enemies that get close in.


Mechanics:
* 1 & 2: Being Large size helps with this. Using a 'reach' weapon will make it better. The feat Large and in Charge (Draco) pushes enemies back. There is also the obscure feat Push (KoK PG) which does something similar on any attack, but the save is Fortitude based instead of an opposed Strength check. Stand Still (SRD) and maybe Movement Check (KoK PG).
* * 1b: Either the ShortHaft (PHB2) or Shorten Grip (Dr301) feat will allow close-in use of a 'reach' weapon. Alternatively, use a Spiked Gauntlet and avoid spending the feats. One might also get Shield Spikes and use their shield as their primary close-in weapon.
* 3: Improved Trip, Knock-Down. And Combat Expertise is a prerequisite for Improved Trip.
* 4: Combat Reflexes, to get more AoO attempts.
* 5: Doing a shield bash (perhaps with spikes carrying weapon enhancements) + some of the feats from * 1 & 2 can help.

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Are there any official D&D feats that might help me make this character work?

Are there any peer-reviewed homebrew feats that might help?

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Are there better ways to go about fulfilling the character concept than what I've suggested above?

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What reach weapons (official preferred, but homebrew ok if well reviewed) are suggested? From reading the Trip rules, it seems the 'Trip' quality on a weapon is not strictly required but a convenience and safeguard. Since the character is already large, I think I'd be willing to go without it.

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I would rather go for a polearm-type weapon than a spiked chain. The spiked chain just does not fit this character.

Also, I thought about using the Disarm tactic, but it seems like it would be useless vs enemies that don't use manufactured weapons?
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Thanks to those who have helped. Especially: Waker, Krazzman, Hirax, and Jade Dragon.

[Waker]

Is your DM allowing LA buyoff? This is important to ask since every large sized race that I'm aware of has at least 1 LA.
Races to consider: Goliath, Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur.
If you go with Goliath, grab the Barbarian racial acf.
You might like the Devoted Defender from Sword and Fist. It is a class that explicitly is designed to protect someone, allowing you to swap places with them when they are attacked as well as them provoking an attack of opportunity when they do so.
Aside from Improved Trip, another useful feat is Stand Still, which forces an enemy to make a Reflex save (usually the lowest for most NPCs) or be unable to move for the rest of the round.

[Krazzman]

Feats you missed:
Stand Still
Short Hafted (Polearm wieldable outside of reach) [PHB2]

To Weapons:
Either the Spiked Chain, that you do not like or if you want a polearm, take one of your choosing. Preferably one with that you'll be able to do 10 points of damage a round.
Grabbing Power Attack for that wouldn't be considered bad.

Disarming is a really weak style.

I would advice you taking the Dungeoncrasher Fighter Variant from Dungeonscape.

Additionally if you are using a heavy shield, look shield bash up for Threatening the area not threatened by your weapon. Else a Spiked Gauntlet or a Spiked Armor do the same to you.

Hope this helps you.

[Frosty]

As a bodyguard, obviously you need the Bodyguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bodyguard-combat) feat then work up to In Harm's Way (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/in-harm-s-way-combat) :smallcool:

[Hirax]

Large and in charge from the Draconomicon is exactly what you want. It requires a 10' natural reach and large size. If you succeed on attack of opportunity, make an opposed strength check with the defender. If you win, the defender is pushed back to outside your threat range, and they cannot move further in that round.

[Wookie-ranger]

Half-minotaur with a spiked-chain. If you real feel like it add it to a centaur.

1: Trip people,
2: Trip people,
3: Trip people,
4: Get DMG to the head,
5: Trip people
6: ...
7: Profit.

[reddir]

Thank you all for your help. I think this character build is starting to come together :smallsmile:


Is your DM allowing LA buyoff?...
Races to consider: Goliath, Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur.
...You might like the Devoted Defender from Sword and Fist. It is a class that explicitly is designed to protect someone...
Aside from Improved Trip, another useful feat is Stand Still, which forces an enemy to make a Reflex save (usually the lowest for most NPCs) or be unable to move for the rest of the round.

Yes, the GM is allowing LA buyoff, and I am using the Half-Minotaur template. On the rp-side, it has shades of Beauty & the Beast :smalltongue:

I am using a full-progression homebrew class. It incorporates some of the Devoted Defender abilities (nice to see that WoTC already considered the bodyguard idea :smallsmile:) without having to deal with changing classes.

Stand Still, nice. Combined with Large size and reach, would be excellent. Thanks :smallsmile:


Feats you missed:
Stand Still
Short Hafted (Polearm wieldable outside of reach) [PHB2]

To Weapons:
...if you want a polearm, take one of your choosing. Preferably one with that you'll be able to do 10 points of damage a round.
Grabbing Power Attack for that wouldn't be considered bad.

Disarming is a really weak style.

I would advice you taking the Dungeoncrasher Fighter Variant from Dungeonscape.

Additionally if you are using a heavy shield, look shield bash up for Threatening the area not threatened by your weapon...

re Short Hafted, it seems to take a Swift action to change from 'reach' to 'normal', and the same to change back. I recently found Shorten Grip (Dr301) which allows one to always use a reach weapon as if a normal weapon, but with a -2 penalty on the close-in attacks. It seems to be the difference between shifting between reach and normal 1/round; or having constant use as both reach and normal but the normal at a -2 to attack...

re doing 10 points of damage, for the feat Knock-Down, got it. I'm depending on the damage bonuses for this, Strength etc, instead of the weapon itself. I will try to work in Power Attack, but since I'm not going with the Fighter class, my feat slots are limited.

Yes, I can't find much good about Disarming, it seems very limited compared to Tripping.

The Dungeoncrasher Fighter Variant seems mostly about surviving traps, bashing in doors, and doing more damage with Bull Rush. I can see how all these are helpful, but this character has a different focus.

re shield bash, I've just started to consider what can be done with this. If the shield is improved enough, ex with shield spikes + enhancements, this might be a way to save a feat on close in fighting...but potentially expensive.


As a bodyguard, obviously you need the Bodyguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bodyguard-combat) feat then work up to In Harm's Way (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/in-harm-s-way-combat) :smallcool:

Haha, nice to see that PathFinder has options (I never thought to check). Its good to see that my idea for a character is not totally out of left field :smallsmile:


Large and in charge from the Draconomicon is exactly what you want. It requires a 10' natural reach and large size. If you succeed on attack of opportunity, make an opposed strength check with the defender. If you win, the defender is pushed back to outside your threat range, and they cannot move further in that round.

Oh this is perfect! This is now #1 on my build. Thank you for finding this :smallsmile:


Half-minotaur with a spiked-chain. If you real feel like it add it to a centaur.

1: Trip people,
2: Trip people,
3: Trip people,
4: Get DMG to the head,
5: Trip people
6: ...
7: Profit.

Hehe, would rather avoid step 4 there...

[Salanmander]

I've typically found having a secondary weapon that can attack at close range is better than most feats that allow you to do so with a reach weapon. It's best if you can have a bite attack, unarmed strike, or something similar that doesn't use the hands you're wielding your reach weapon with.

I don't know if you're settled on class, but if not, make sure you look at Crusader and Knight. Both get some good options for protecting allies and preventing enemy movement.

[Waker]

I've typically found having a secondary weapon that can attack at close range is better than most feats that allow you to do so with a reach weapon. It's best if you can have a bite attack, unarmed strike, or something similar that doesn't use the hands you're wielding your reach weapon with.
The simplest method (assuming you are playing a race without natural attacks) is to wield a weapon with reach, like a polearm, while wearing gauntlets. You threaten all within 10ft and you suffer no penalty for shifting your grip on your weapon while punching.

[reddir]

I've typically found having a secondary weapon that can attack at close range is better than most feats that allow you to do so with a reach weapon. It's best if you can have a bite attack, unarmed strike, or something similar that doesn't use the hands you're wielding your reach weapon with.

I don't know if you're settled on class, but if not, make sure you look at Crusader and Knight. Both get some good options for protecting allies and preventing enemy movement.

Its possible to do some sort of bite attack...but I'd like to avoid it. Due to rp reasons, this character dislikes the bestial stuff.


The simplest method (assuming you are playing a race without natural attacks) is to wield a weapon with reach, like a polearm, while wearing gauntlets. You threaten all within 10ft and you suffer no penalty for shifting your grip on your weapon while punching.

huh, Gauntlets! Due to the way this character is set up, gauntlets work very nicely indeed. That saves feats on using reach weapons in adjacent squares, and also attacking with a shield. Thank you!

[Hiro Protagonest]

The simplest method (assuming you are playing a race without natural attacks) is to wield a weapon with reach, like a polearm, while wearing gauntlets. You threaten all within 10ft and you suffer no penalty for shifting your grip on your weapon while punching.

SPIKED gauntlet. Gauntlet is no better than fighting unarmed.

[reddir]

SPIKED gauntlet. Gauntlet is no better than fighting unarmed.

Right you are, changing now.

[Flickerdart]

Armor spikes are better because they don't require any hands free, and are handy in a grapple too.

You may also be interested in the Dutiful Guardian feat from Drow of the Underdark. Take Wolf Totem Barbarian to get Improved Trip without needing Intelligence or Combat Expertise.

You need a trip weapon in order to trip with a weapon, unless you take Knock-down from Complete Warrior, which you should.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can always wear armor spikes to threaten adjacent squares if using a reach weapon.

If you're married to using a shield, definitely get a Kusari-Gama detailed in the oriental weapons in the DMG. It's a light exotic weapon that consists of a blade on a chain, it has reach and you can hit adjacent foes with it just like a spiked chain. It makes more sense to me for someone to be sweeping a chain around tripping everyone, and the wide swings are a bit more agreeable with Knock-Back.

Tower shields are suboptimal, just a heavy shield is more than sufficient and you don't take a penalty to attack rolls just for using it. Take some Crusader levels for the shield-based counter maneuvers from Devoted Spirit, and that will also give you access to the Thicket of Blades stance which makes opponents' 5-ft. steps provoke AoOs from you.

Depending on your level of optimization, I'd recommend either Half-Minotuar Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) (high-op) or Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny (medium-low-op). He should definitely buy off his level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). You can throw on Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) and buy off that level adjustment as well, or even use Quasi-Lycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) if you want DR without the powerful bonuses of Mineral Warrior.

I'd use something like Crusader 1/ Fighter 6/ Crusader 1/ Fighter+, and get the Dungeoncrasher ACF from Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels, and Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) for Fighter. You should also trade Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) as a class skill even though you can't use tumble in medium or heavy armor, but you can still use the Nimble Stand and Back On Your Feet skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel. Take the feat Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, and take the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

Feats should definitely include EWP: Kusari-Gama or whatever lets you use a reach weapon one-handed, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Combat Reflexes, and Imperious Command. You won't get bonus feats at Fighter 2 or 6 due to Dungeoncrasher, but hopefully you can use two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for two extra feats. You should be able to have all of that by 10th level with flaws, which would be a slightly higher ECL due to race. Definitely pick up Defensive Sweep from PH2 at level 15.

After Fighter 9 you have quite a few options for how to finish the build. If his race is Half-Ogre/Minotaur with the other half being Orc, he should be able to count as a Half-Orc for prerequisites. In that case, say he visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the feat Menacing Demeanor without having to spend a feat on it, and dip a single level of Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) right after Fighter 9. After that you could take more Crusader levels and maybe pick up Fighter 10 if you need another feat, or you could take War Hulk from the Miniatures Handbook. War Hulk would let him hit multiple opponents with every attack, including AoOs, and he'd get a Knock-Back and a Knock-Down on each opponent hit. With Improved Trip he'd get another attack per opponent, and each of those extra attacks would hit and damage and Knock-Back again on every one of those opponents. Don't forget Knock-Back adds his Dungeoncrasher damage every time it happens, as long as he's got them against a wall or other obstacle.