[3.P] Would this paladin spell be OP?

[Frosty]

Suppose there is a 4th level spell on the Paladin spell list that has a special restriction that only Paladins can cast this spell even if other classes were to get a hold of the paladin spell list somehow. It does the following:

Divine Intervention
School Abjuration; Level paladin 4
Casting Time 1 swift or standard action; see text
Components V
Range close
Target one non-evil creature
Duration 2 rounds
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You call upon the holy light that embodies the very ideals of Good, and bestows them upon yourself or someone else who is not corrupt of heart. For the duration of the spell, the target is immune to all hitpoint damage.

If this spell is cast on yourself, the casting time is only 1 swift action. If cast on another, the time is a standard action. Each creature may benefit from this spell no more than once per encounter.


So, would this spell be too much to give to a paladin? If so, how would you modify it to retaint he flavor but also be balanced?

[killianh]

basically it sounds like a weaker sanctuary that lets you attack. I would say you could even increase the duration to your CHA mod

[Frosty]

Sanctuary allows a Will Save for hostiles to break through, and AoE spells are unrestricted, but it does protect you from ALL hostile attacks instead of just damage I suppose...

[Ashtagon]

Looks reasonably balanced. That said, I'm not found of absolutes on general principles. Maybe change it to DR 30/-?

[Menteith]

Bear in mind that Paladins will have access to the Battle Blessing feat, meaning they'll be able to Swift Action cast it regardless of target. The close range prevents Divine Metamagic: Persist from showing up unless Ocular Spell is in the mix, but there are far more broken things that can happen if that level of optimization is on the table. I like it, it looks flavorful, powerful, and gives a decent power boost to a class that needs some love.

[Frosty]

Looks reasonably balanced. That said, I'm not found of absolutes on general principles. Maybe change it to DR 30/-?But that only works against physical strikes. I want the target to be safe from all sources of damage (including fall damage). A literal bubble of energy surrounds the target. Nothing gets through.

Bear in mind that Paladins will have access to the Battle Blessing feat, meaning they'll be able to Swift Action cast it regardless of target.True, although Pathfinder paladins won't have access to that feat. but then, PF paladins have alot of extra love already, so it's all good.

[doko239]

As a suggestion, perhaps change the casting time to Immediate Action and alter duration to "end of your next turn". Makes it a more tactical spell, as opposed to a buff.

[Ashtagon]

But that only works against physical strikes. I want the target to be safe from all sources of damage (including fall damage). A literal bubble of energy surrounds the target. Nothing gets through.


Ok, Add energy resistance (whatever) 30 and a clause that notes the DR also applies to falling damage? Although tbh, I don;'t see any clause that allows falling damage to penetrate DR (unless it's noted as DR X/falling).

[docnessuno]

Is this power game breaking? No
Is this power balanced? I don't think so

From your description it really seems like you are looking to re-create a WoW paladin (or D3 monk) bubble. This power is already in the game so let's take a look a it:

Timeless body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm)
It's obviously more powerful than the version you posted but:
9th level
Cannot be quickened
1 round duration
Personal range (doesn't have to cope with persistent spell tho)

[Menteith]

Is this power game breaking? No
Is this power balanced? I don't think so

From your description it really seems like you are looking to re-create a WoW paladin (or D3 monk) bubble. This power is already in the game so let's take a look a it:

Timeless body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm)
It's obviously more powerful than the version you posted but:
9th level
Cannot be quickened
1 round duration
Personal range (doesn't have to cope with persistent spell tho)

Alternately, compare it to Delay Death. Cleric 3, Destiny 3, 1 round/level, Hit Point damage doesn't kill the target.

[Ashtagon]

Alternately, compare it to Delay Death. Cleric 3, Destiny 3, 1 round/level, Hit Point damage doesn't kill the target.

With delay death, once the spell ends, if the character is still below -10 hp, he dies instantly.

[Menteith]

With delay death, once the spell ends, if the character is still below -10 hp, he dies instantly.

Paladin's can't get this spell until other casters are learning 7ths, and Paladins have very, very few spells/day. This spell is fine. Comparing it to a 9th level power makes it seem seriously under the correct spell level, but I feel that it's also fair to compare it to Delay Death. Paladin's can't get this spell until other casters are learning 7ths, and Paladins have very, very few spells/day.

[Ashtagon]

Paladin's can't get this spell until other casters are learning 7ths, and Paladins have very, very few spells/day. This spell is fine. Comparing it to a 9th level power makes it seem seriously under the correct spell level, but I feel that it's also fair to compare it to Delay Death. Paladin's can't get this spell until other casters are learning 7ths, and Paladins have very, very few spells/day.

My point is, the effect of delay death is utterly unlike the effect of the new spell being proposed.

[Menteith]

My point is, the effect of delay death is utterly unlike the effect of the new spell being proposed.

"You call upon the holy light that embodies the very ideals of Good, and bestows them upon yourself or someone else who is not corrupt of heart. For the duration of the spell, the target is immune to all hitpoint damage."

Versus

"The subject of this powerful spell is unable to die from hit point damage."

Yes, this is better than Delay Death, but they both have the effect of making HP damage unable to kill anyone. Divine Intervention does so in a superior way, as I'd expect of a spell with required level 14, but it's not "utterly unlike the effect".

[Ashtagon]

"You call upon the holy light that embodies the very ideals of Good, and bestows them upon yourself or someone else who is not corrupt of heart. For the duration of the spell, the target is immune to all hitpoint damage."

Versus

"The subject of this powerful spell is unable to die from hit point damage."

Yes, this is better than Delay Death, but they both have the effect of making HP damage unable to kill anyone. Divine Intervention does so in a superior way, as I'd expect of a spell with required level 14, but it's not "utterly unlike the effect".

One means the hp damage is never noted. The other means the hp damage is noted, but has no effect until the spell ends.

Can you not see how one is not like the other?

[Menteith]

One means the hp damage is never noted. The other means the hp damage is noted, but has no effect until the spell ends.

Can you not see how one is not like the other?

Seeing as how I've literally said that already, yes, there's a good chance that I see the difference between them. I also am of the mind that both spells prevent HP damage from killing a target, despite doing so in different ways, making this a viable comparison. Can you not see how these spells are similar, though they do have differences?

EDIT

Enh, if you don't feel that it's reasonable to compare them, then you don't. I see a preexisting lower level spell that's obtainable 9 levels before this one, that I feel is similar enough in mechanics to justify this spell. I'm fine with it from a balance perspective, feel that it's flavorful, and don't see any way to break the game with this that can't already be done. Going to try and stay on topic.

[phantomreader42]

Ok, Add energy resistance (whatever) 30 and a clause that notes the DR also applies to falling damage? Although tbh, I don;'t see any clause that allows falling damage to penetrate DR (unless it's noted as DR X/falling).

I would think falling damage would count as bludgeoning damage, and be no more likely to bypass DR than any normal non-magical bludgeoning weapon. Unless of course you crashed into an adamantine floor or something...

[docnessuno]

One means the hp damage is never noted. The other means the hp damage is noted, but has no effect until the spell ends.

Can you not see how one is not like the other?

No, one means the hp damage is never noted, the other means the hp damage is noted, but has no effect doesn't kill you until the spell ends. You are still unconscious in the negatives. So it's even worse then your comparison.

[Frosty]

Is this power game breaking? No
Is this power balanced? I don't think so

From your description it really seems like you are looking to re-create a WoW paladin (or D3 monk) bubble. This power is already in the game so let's take a look a it:

Timeless body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm)
It's obviously more powerful than the version you posted but:
9th level
Cannot be quickened
1 round duration
Personal range (doesn't have to cope with persistent spell tho)Well, it's more like 2 rounds because it lasts until the end of your next turn.

Basically, this spell is definitely more powerful than other 4th level Paladin spells. There is no doubt about it. The point is, since paladins suck so much, I'm seeing if giving this to paladins will balance out the class in general, or at least nudge it in the right direction with a small power boost.

As for the whole "Delay Death" thing, don't forget that it is an IMMEDIATE action, unlike the spell I've proposed.

[Salanmander]

I like this spell, especially because it also allows for action-hero paladins doing all sorts of crazy snap-decision stuff, with the justification "The gods will protect me!" Jumping off a tower in Sharn, diving into lava to retrieve the artifact that just fell, etc. Just the sort of stuff I feel a totally obsessively dedicated holy warrior would do.

[Frosty]

And here I thought Paladins are supposed to be Wise and consider carefully their actions :smallwink:

[Answerer]

Jumping off a tower in Sharn
If you choose your tower carefully, this is perfectly safe anyway. Sharn teenagers do it all the time.

[Frosty]

This spell can also open up cool new ways to "Deep Strike" paladin shock-troops behind enemy lines! The paladins can get catapulted, and come out unharmed! :smallbiggrin:

[Toliudar]

As a spell cast by a level 14 paladin, the power level seems about right, and the spell is tactically fun and flavourful. As a wand UMD'ed by a 10th level whatever, perhaps not quite so balanced. As a spell cast by a 7th level archivist, there may be some issues - but that's a 3.5 perspective.

[Frosty]

Note the special in the text. This spell can ONLY be cast by a paladin, no matter what. I should add in some text about if using UMD, the user still needs to be a Paladin.

Glad you like it Toliudar.

[TuggyNE]

Note the special in the text. This spell can ONLY be cast by a paladin, no matter what. I should add in some text about if using UMD, the user still needs to be a Paladin.

This addition would probably good enough, but the spell as written doesn't contain that provision. :smallwink:

[Ernir]

I suggest making it a class feature, not a spell. The red tape you'd have to go through to make every Archivist, Wyrm Wizard, Recaster, Prestige Paladin, Incantatrix and Rogue (and a few others) not howl with glee when this spell is introduced isn't really worth it...

[mucco]

When people bring out the archivists to make your spell broken, then you know your spell is probably fine.


As a suggestion, perhaps change the casting time to Immediate Action and alter duration to "end of your next turn". Makes it a more tactical spell, as opposed to a buff.

I fully endorse this change.

[Chained Birds]

And here I thought Paladins are supposed to be Wise and consider carefully their actions :smallwink:

Wisdom? PF Paladins need none of that!

Make Wisdom your dump stat, now Divine Intervention Pally can be as Lawful Stupid as she wants with actual mechanics to back her up. Charisma influences Leadership, so people will even follow you around agreeing with your actions.

"Let us charge the Demon Baron for Great Justice!"
"But we are outnumbered 10,000 to 1."
"I don't see any problems, Charge!"
"...Can you at least get dressed first?"

[Frosty]

I fully endorse this change.Doesn't that make this spell more brain-dead to use though? See damage coming, cast spell?

[mucco]

Well, it burns your next swift action and one of your few 4th slots. If you're a paladin with that feat that lets you cast spells as a swift action, an immediate is a tradeoff.

On the plus side, it doesn't expose you to slot wastes because the enemies don't target you (it only takes one spellcraft check to know you're immune for 2 rounds).