Optimal Psion Progression

[Mithril Leaf]

In my current campaign I am a psionic shaper. I am planning (and allowed) to take both Anarchic Initiate and Ghostbreaker (from Hyperconcious). This is a straight 1-20 campaign with a good amount of downtime for research and money making. What would the optimal order to take these PrCs be. Alternatively, what points are viable break points to shift over to progressing the other class?
Undead will be fairly common, but not our primary enemy group.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get the Personal Construct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) ACF at Psion 5. Astral Construct as a swift action just for spending your psionic focus is totally worth it, especially considering you can't even quicken it normally. Overchannel + Talented is also good for Astral Construct, but you'll need Psicrystal Containment or similar to use Talented with Personal Construct.

I'd even recommend Ectopic Form: Emerald Gyre (CP) and Boost Construct if starting at a low level, as your 1st level Astral Construct will have Improved Grab plus either one ability from Menu B or two from Menu A thanks to Boost Construct. As soon as you get 4th level powers learn Psychic Reformation to get rid of Ectopic Form for another feat, repick any other feats/skills/powers you want, and even swap Psychic Reformation for a different 4th level power.

Get a Psicrystal, I'd recommend Hero or Nimble, every day use Share Pain on it, and don't forget it has Hardness 8. Use Vigor and the built-in Share Powers ability to give both of you a nice temporary HP cushion. Be sure to keep the psicrystal out of line of sight/effect to your enemies so they can't harm it directly, I'm currently playing a character who keeps his in an athletic cup, and it reaches out to activate his Healing Belt for him whenever he needs it.

[Arcanist]

I'm currently playing a character who keeps his in an athletic cup, and it reaches out to activate his Healing Belt for him whenever he needs it.

... Your serious? :smallconfused: Thats like holding a Warning Shuriken in your mouth so you can still dual wield...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

... Your serious? :smallconfused: Thats like holding a Warning Shuriken in your mouth so you can still dual wield...

The whole party got Healing Belts at 2nd level, and during the next adventure a few got knocked into negative HP. The DM let other characters activate their Healing Belts for them, which set a precedent for the Psicrystal activating my character's for him.

For your example, I'd actually put that on Armor Spikes, along with Illithidwrought and probably Defending if I had someone using GMW for me.

[Arcanist]

The whole party got Healing Belts at 2nd level, and during the next adventure a few got knocked into negative HP. The DM let other characters activate their Healing Belts for them, which set a precedent for the Psicrystal activating my character's for him.

For your example, I'd actually put that on Armor Spikes, along with Illithidwrought and probably Defending if I had someone using GMW for me.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100108063233/uncyclopedia/images/archive/b/b5/20100108063328!Exploding-head.gif

That actually gives me a good idea for an Armor that my friend asked me to make for him for a game :smalltongue:

[Mithril Leaf]

So umm, no actual advice on which levels to take in what order? I know what to do with my manifester levels, I just wanted to know when to take what levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Getting back on topic...

I've never been a fan of Anarchic Initiate on a Psion. It does get better BAB, HD, and skill points, but its Wild Surge class feature can't be used with Overchannel.

The Google gave me this link (http://drifters.pbworks.com/f/Hyperconscious+-+Exploration+In+Psionics+%28Malhavoc%29.pdf) which contains Ghostbreaker, which looks like a strong choice for any psionic character. I'd probably get all five levels of that as early as possible, maybe even going Psion 6/ Ghostbreaker 5 and then finishing with whatever else. The 6th level of a class gives you +1 BAB and +1 to all three saves, so it's a good jumping off point for pretty much anything.

Maybe consider taking Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b), though the 10th level is worthless with Personal Construct. It loses a single manifester level, but it's probably better than Ectopic Adept and it's just enough levels to finish your build to 20th.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm rather set on anarchic initiate, and I would be taking constructor if I didn't want wild surge so bad. But honestly, the flavor of Contructor doesn't sync up well with what I'm aiming for, I really want to be a god of manifestation. Losing manifester levels doesn't really match that goal. I was personally considering
Psion 5
Anarchic Initiate 3
Ghostbreaker 5
Anarchic Initiate 7
The last 2 levels of AI aren't needed, but I really need that wild surge bonus. My real question was whether I should go something along the lines of
Psion 5
Anarchic Initiate 8
Ghostbreaker 5
Anarchic Initiate 2

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Surge cannot be used at the same time as Overchannel, as per the Wild Surge class feature in the Wilder class entry. With Share Pain: Psicrystal and an HP cushion from Vigor, the damage you take from Overchannel is irrelevant, but Psychic Enervation still sucks. That means:

ECL 1: Psion 1, Overcannel gives you +1 ML.
ECL 8: Psion 5/ Anarchic Initiate 3, Wild Surge gives you +1 ML or Overchannel gives you +2 ML.
ECL 12: Psion 5/ Anarchic Initiate 7, Wild Surge gives you +2 ML or Overchannel gives you +2 ML.
ECL 15: Psion 5/ Anarchic Initiate 10, Wild Surge gives you +2 ML or Overchannel gives you +3 ML.

For increasing your manifester level, Overchannel is always going to be an equal or greater bonus than Wild Surge at any given character level. Overchannel's drawbacks can be mitigated before you even gain Wild Surge, Wild Surge's drawbacks cannot be mitigated until ECL 13.

Just about the only thing Anarchic Initiate has going for it is that it's got better raw stats (HD, BAB, skill points) than Psion with 10/10 manifesting. If there were any other prestige class with 10/10 manifesting, it would be better for a Psion than Anarchic Initiate, hands-down.

Forget that Anarchic Initiate even gives you Wild Surge at all, you're better off using Overchannel instead. I'd go Psion 6/ Ghostbreaker 5/ Anarchic Initiate 9 for your build, and if you're going epic you should pick up (or Psychic Reformation into) Practiced Manifester before 20th and get a prestige class that has decent class features that's at least 6/10.

[Mithril Leaf]

But wild surge does save me power points in the long run. People have done the math and it works out better to use wild surge, especially seeing as I don't have wilder levels to cost me power points for failing. Additionally Anarchic Initiate pays for itself by giving me wild surge. I'm pretty feat starved to begin with, so Overchannel isn't really something I want to keep if I can avoid it. Plus chaotic surge rocks hardcore.

I highly doubt that there would be a better standard full manifesting class. Anarchic Initiate gives gives 3/4 BAB, a d6, 4 skill points and class features. I know casters get to be broken but the normal trend of psionic PrCs disagrees with you on the matter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can't switch out Overchannel once you have Anarchic Initiate, you'll lose the class features and casting/manifesting progression of a prestige class if you no longer qualify for it.

I'll agree that the improvement to raw stats makes Anarchic Initiate better than more Psion, but it's not a huge deal. The d6 vs d4 isn't that big a deal with Share Pain: Psicrystal and Vigor. The BAB is +2 over 8 levels, you're not going to be using iteratives and you're seldom making an attack that's not versus touch AC. The skill points are nice, but on an Int-based class it's again not all that significant.

If you presume that Wild Surge pays the full augmentation cost of the power, rather than just a portion equal to the Wild Surge bonus, then it is indeed better than Overchannel. The last paragraph of Wild Surge would imply this, but it appears to presume that you're only augmenting the power by an amount equal to your Wild Surge bonus, per the second paragraph. I've seen it ruled both ways, and I wasn't considering the questionable interpretation that would basically let you augment everything for free. In that case yes, Wild Surge is far better than Overchannel, but if it's only giving you free augmentation equal to the Wild Surge bonus, Overchannel's higher manifester level is often better. If you can get free augmentation out of it, then definitely get Anarchic Initiate 3 asap. Get the feat Quick Recovery (LoM) to only lose a move action to psychic enervation.

[Mithril Leaf]

You can't switch out Overchannel once you have Anarchic Initiate, you'll lose the class features and casting/manifesting progression of a prestige class if you no longer qualify for it.


Anarchic Initiate gives you Wild Surge which is a prerequisite to enter the class. You either need Wild Surge OR Overchannel. It's like an inverse of the Ur-Priest paradox.

But yeah, according the SRD:
"A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge."
Free augmentation indeed.

With this in mind is breaking out at 3 or 7/8 more worth my time?

[Flickerdart]

If you're concerned about psychic enervation, Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness) will let you save to salvage your following turn almost entirely, though you still lose the PP. In the interest of an easy save to make, if you want to focus on Astral Constructs and buffs, you may want to deliberately sabotage your DCs,

[Mithril Leaf]

If you're concerned about psychic enervation, Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness) will let you save to salvage your following turn almost entirely, though you still lose the PP. In the interest of an easy save to make, if you want to focus on Astral Constructs and buffs, you may want to deliberately sabotage your DCs,

Except I don't lose the PP. I've got 0 wilder levels, remember? :smallbiggrin:
"A wilder who is overcome by psychic enervation is dazed until the end of her next turn and loses a number of power points equal to her wilder level."
Levels in Anarchic Initiate aren't wilder levels, now are they?

But yeah, I'll consider Quick Recovery. If I weren't so feat starved it would be a pretty sweet deal.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anarchic Initiate gives you Wild Surge which is a prerequisite to enter the class. You either need Wild Surge OR Overchannel. It's like an inverse of the Ur-Priest paradox.

But yeah, according the SRD:
"A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge."
Free augmentation indeed.

With this in mind is breaking out at 3 or 7/8 more worth my time?

Also from the SRD:
"In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve."

Some would say that Wild Surge covers your entire augmentation cost, so for example an Energy Ray at a manifester level of 17 fully augmented for 17d6+17 would only cost you 1 pp with Wild Surge. As I said before though, it looks like the entire ability presumes you're only augmenting it for an amount equal to the Wild Surge bonus, so that's the only amount of free augmentation you get.


Regarding Quick Recovery, your Psychic Enervation has no caster/manifester level and no relevant ability. That means you'd get a Will save at a DC of 10 + 1/2 your level + your Cha modifier. This is on a character who gets a good Will save from multiple classes and probably has a Cha score below 10, so you're almost guaranteed to always make your Quick Recovery save versus Psychic Enervation regardless of what your power DCs are.

[Draz74]

Maybe consider taking Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b), though the 10th level is worthless with Personal Construct.

Nitpick: it's not totally worthless, since it allows you to quicken the creation of any construct, not just your signature pre-customized construct. (But that advantage isn't really worth losing a manifester level, I admit.)

[Flickerdart]

Regarding Quick Recovery, your Psychic Enervation has no caster/manifester level and no relevant ability. That means you'd get a Will save at a DC of 10 + 1/2 your level + your Cha modifier. This is on a character who gets a good Will save from multiple classes and probably has a Cha score below 10, so you're almost guaranteed to always make your Quick Recovery save versus Psychic Enervation regardless of what your power DCs are.
For a moment, I thought he was a Wilder, is all.