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EccentricCircle
2012-06-06, 05:56 AM
So, I'm putting together a group for the D&D next open playtest stuff, and want to test the assertion that it can match the play styles of each edition to an extent. I suspect this won't be possible until we have more information, but in the meantime I can be thinking about desigining a four level dungeon where each level is built to the standards of a particular edition.

First level will be a Gygaxian death trap full of hazards and puzzles.
Level four will be a set of complicated tactical encounters with monsters using a complex environment to their advantage.

I'm a little stuck on 2 and 3 though, as i've never played 2nd ed, and have played 3/3.5 far too much to be able to easily step back from it and say this is "It's thing"

So Playground, what do you think those levels should look like?

Nero24200
2012-06-06, 07:41 AM
For the 3rd level (and possible an extra level for an added .5). It could be a level where every encounter could be overcome by preperation - to the point that in-combat actions hold little effect. Also set the encounters up so that they favour higher level spellcasters over martial characters (since one of the dominant discussions I've seen for 3.0/3.5 is the martial/caster disprarity at higher levels).

Also empower the Psionic vastly stuff while they're in the 3.0 section of the dungeon.

Ashtagon
2012-06-06, 08:22 AM
The defining theme of 2e, to me, was a focus on various campaign settings. So have a mini-Ravenloft, a mini-Spelljammer, a mini-Greyhawk, a mini-Dark Sun, and so on.

navar100
2012-06-06, 09:22 AM
For the 3rd level (and possible an extra level for an added .5). It could be a level where every encounter could be overcome by preperation - to the point that in-combat actions hold little effect. Also set the encounters up so that they favour higher level spellcasters over martial characters (since one of the dominant discussions I've seen for 3.0/3.5 is the martial/caster disprarity at higher levels).

Also empower the Psionic vastly stuff while they're in the 3.0 section of the dungeon.

Or, try not to be so cynical typical 3E bashing.

3E is flashy. Encourage players to think outside the box. Opponents should be varied. For monsters, no two should be the same species. For humanoids, no two should be the same class except as needed to be in two distinct prestige classes. The level has large caverns/rooms of pretty much open terrain but with interesting features players can utilize for the outside the box thinking.

2E is a bit predictable. Have traps, but not Gygaxian as the 1E level. They are sane, logical, and in obvious places. Enemy spellcasters are blasters. Lots of Magic Missile, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt. All monsters have three attacks - claw/claw/bite. Reroll initiative each round.

4E is battlegrid. Use miniatures. Combat areas have heavy terrain features. Movement is critical. As a quip, not an insult, think Chess with dice.

Urpriest
2012-06-06, 12:05 PM
Part of the problem is that 3.5 is very much about the character-gen minigame. That said, I'd say make the 3rd level one with lots of proactive NPCs who not only use the environment to their advantage, but use magic to modify the environment. Whatever 5e spells let you permanently change the battlefield or alter the dynamics of societies should be well in evidence. Focus on characters that think on a strategic, rather than tactical level, and monsters that use SWAT-team tactics.

EccentricCircle
2012-06-06, 12:07 PM
Great ideas!
I like the Mini-campaign settings Idea, that will make a nice subtheme within the level.
I'll aim for as much variety as possible in the 3e level, and a focus on high powered (or as High powered as possible) magic would certianly fit, although clearly this will be limited by whats in the D&D next pack, as thats the point of the excercise. As for 3.5 I'm thinking a mezzanine of some description.

Treblain
2012-06-07, 07:21 PM
I'd be wary about attributing characteristics of each edition to their design; especially in earlier editions, since the playstyle wasn't a concern and they didn't undergo extensive testing to determine how well they fit various categorizations.

For instance, someone might describe 3.5 as a high-powered, simulationist game with lots of complex options, super-powerful magic, heavy multiclassing, and creative character optimization. But most of that was not part of what the designers anticipated, so you won't get much by drawing your conclusions from that. I don't see how it's even possible for 5th Edition to replicate the peculiar state of 3.X, especially as part of a larger system.

1st and 4th have the most discernible design goals, but still, you can't put too much stock in them.

The flavor and fluff given by a game system can subtly influence how players and GMs use it. If a wizard player thinks that he's supposed to be playing a frail blaster wizard, he'll learn Fireball and dump his CON, even when these are suboptimal choices. When he learns this, he'll make a new wizard with high CON and utility spells, and that changes the playstyle in the same system.

An edition's qualities push players in one direction or another, but it's all an unconscious, uncontrolled mess.

Urpriest
2012-06-07, 07:36 PM
I think the idea is not to copy designer intent, but to see if 5e can capture the reasons why people stay loyal to the various older editions, as it seems to want to do.

The Glyphstone
2012-06-07, 08:46 PM
Have the stairs between each floor be a warzone, with the denizens of the respective floors engaged in a never-ending battle firing flaming arrows at each other?

7RED7
2012-06-07, 11:34 PM
Well, the third floor can only be beat by skill optimization, third-party splat books, giving the wealth-by-level guidelines post traumatic stress disorder, deriving the differentials equations of your hero's motions from basic attributes to ensure a proper simulation response, and becoming a deity before you are allowed to leave.

@Glyphstone. I see what you did thur. :smallamused:

EccentricCircle
2012-06-08, 05:54 AM
I like the idea of the Stairwells being a warzone. that will definitely go in.
I'm not trying to replicate the experience completely, so much as prepare a game that the players will start playing, and then as they progress it will gradually dawn on them what the theme is. whether or not I shall succeed remains to be seen. That "Wait a minute" moment where the players figure out a twist or a theme is one of my favourite things about DMing. which is good, because it encourages me to put lots to twists and themes beneath the surface of my games for them to find.

Nero24200
2012-06-08, 06:04 AM
Or, try not to be so cynical typical 3E bashing.

Bashing? How is implying that 3.5 is very much focused on preperation bashing? Have you ever wondered why optimised wizards are called Batman wizards? It's the idea that you overcome any possible problem due to knowing about it and taking appropriate steps.

As for the marital/caster balance...well it's true. No game is balanced, no matter how much it's fans may want it to be, and it just so happens that in 3.5 people feel the balance divide exists more between martial/magical classes than anything else. Don't believe me? Look at any balance thread on this forum. Not just this one, try other forums.

3.5 is actually my edition of choice, so don't be so quick to throw around the word "bashing" simply because I said something about an Edition that you don't agree with.

EccentricCircle
2012-06-08, 06:08 AM
All editions have their pros and cons, but ultimately its the storys they allow us to tell and the adventures they let us go on that are important. So long as a game can do that, its all good. The aim of this thread isn't to assess teh relative strengths of different sections of D&D's history, so much as to come up with some cool ideas for a themed dungeon. And some really cool ideas have been suggested!

nedz
2012-06-08, 06:10 AM
Have the stairs between each floor be a warzone, with the denizens of the respective floors engaged in a never-ending battle firing flaming arrows at each other?

Surely a simple Wall of Flames would be more than adequate ?

onemorelurker
2012-06-08, 05:21 PM
Have the stairs between each floor be a warzone, with the denizens of the respective floors engaged in a never-ending battle firing flaming arrows at each other?

I picture it as more of a snowball fight, with each floor using a different flavor of ice cream as ammo. :smallbiggrin:

Morghen
2012-06-08, 07:13 PM
Whatever level they're playing, send edition-appropriate orcs at them.

So on Level 1E, they get 10 murderously difficult orcs.
On Level 2E, 6 or 8.
On Level 3.5E, I guess it would just be an endless wave of orcs throwing themselves directly onto the weapons of the PCs.


I'm exaggerating for the joke, but if you're going for the feel of the editions then the gap between monsters and PCs has to be factored in there.

kyoryu
2012-06-08, 07:55 PM
I think an awesome addition to the 3.x levels would be monsters with class levels.

For 4e, giving everything its own unique thingie with no real framework or consistency to guide it.

Figgin of Chaos
2012-06-09, 03:37 AM
The 3rd level should have a secret side-passage that leads to yet another level, similar to the 3rd, where everything is a little bit nicer and more options are apparent, but the challenges from the 3rd are still largely present.

Eldan
2012-06-09, 05:00 AM
How about upon entering the 3.X level, everyone suddenly gets new abilities out of nowhere?

nedz
2012-06-09, 07:55 AM
As they go down to each level you should make them re-work their character sheets, starting with the 1E version obviously.

readsaboutd&d
2012-06-09, 05:13 PM
The defining characteristic of 3/3.5 is probably just the sheer amount of content and the presence of mechanics for everything. Maybe you could make them roll for everything (you attempt to sit on the chair, roll to not fall on your bum) although that would get old fairly fast. You should give very varied encounters and enviromments as well as a lot of player options and generally lots of magic stuff. Another caracteristic is the flashiness and relatively fast power creep so you could start them off in a small gritty encounter and end with them tearing through demon lords easily.

Eldan
2012-06-09, 08:36 PM
Or how about you change your DMing style? For 1E and 2E, reward the players for describing their actions and resolve things with quick rolls, if any at all. For 3E and 4E, go exactly by the rules on everything.

EccentricCircle
2012-06-10, 05:04 AM
I think i'll put kobolds in the 3.5 level. As I believe that that was the addition that made them distinct with the draconic connection rather than just yet another type of goblin like creature?

Ashtagon
2012-06-10, 05:15 AM
I think i'll put kobolds in the 3.5 level. As I believe that that was the addition that made them distinct with the draconic connection rather than just yet another type of goblin like creature?

Monsters with class levels and monster templates seem to be new in 3.x. Maybe have those be particularly common there?

satorian
2012-06-11, 11:51 AM
Don't use minis or a battlemap until 3.x. In 3.x use it sometimes. In 4e use it for everything.

My experience with 1e and 2e was not at all "gygaxian", and if history tells true, neither were his. The defining characteristic of AD&D was that it was much more rules-light than 3e/4e. Its lack of numerical skills meant you could basically just do stuff if it fit your character and the DM OK'd it. Tomb of Horrors style traps were actually very rare.

Hm, the more it think on it, the more I realize that the common theme of games of that era was that any given DM would be ignoring a good third of the rules of the game.

kyoryu
2012-06-11, 12:05 PM
Monsters with class levels and monster templates seem to be new in 3.x. Maybe have those be particularly common there?

That was my suggestion, too!

EccentricCircle
2012-06-11, 12:30 PM
Ok, the third level itself is now a maze of abandoned crypts long left behind. but above all that stands the Fortress of the Mezzanine Guard, an elite order of highly optimised characters with lots of class levels and prestige classes, who are kind of like an Edition War Night's Watch defending the Stair against the forces of the Fourth Floor. All of the floor's resources have long ago been subsumed into fighting the unending War of the Stair. Fourthling casters hurl fireballs down upon them as originally suggested, and there are battles on the stair.

Thanks for the great idea's guys. Its all appreciated!

MukkTB
2012-06-11, 12:53 PM
3rd level would be defined by going in and building interesting monsters to fight. 3.x being defined hugely by character creation options.

2cd level would probably be defined by story above all else.

Grey Watcher
2012-06-11, 01:49 PM
I feel the Rant Golem (http://www.goblinscomic.com/tempts-fate-7/) should make an appearance.

navar100
2012-06-11, 11:37 PM
The stairs between the 1st and 2nd levels should be pristine. There was never any battle there. In fact, it is not uncommon to find denizens of both levels traversing them.

The stairs between the 2nd and 3rd levels should show remnants of past battles, but it's been a long time since any combat was actually fought. The battles were more like skirmishes than any full blown conflict. They are clearly abandoned areas. The 2nd floor denizens just didn't really care anymore about the conflict and stopped going to the stairs. The 3rd floor denizens shrugged their shoulders when they realized there was a war but no one came, so they too just stopped going to the stairs that led to the 2nd floor.

Certainly there is full scale conflict between the third and fourth floors. The fourth floor was winning but two events changed the tide. The third floor denizens found secret paths on their level that led to another self-contained dungeon. That dungeon was much like theirs but a little more advanced. Still, they were friendly enough and became allies. Allied reinforcements of these found paths turned the tide of the war against the 4th floor. The second event was the discovery of stairs leading to a 5th floor. The 4th floor denizens are so far only scouting the area, but it is a significant enough distraction from the war. 3rd floor spies have learned of these new stairs and have sent scouts of their own.

Eldan
2012-06-12, 02:57 AM
Actually, there is a Magic Mouth on the Hologram endlessly repeating a message of "Welcome to Paradise! People of every floor, you can live in peace here!"

EccentricCircle
2012-06-14, 04:37 AM
Essentially the premise of the game is that each of these floors houses the books in which the words of reality are written. every age or so the Wizards return to the tower to rewrite reality, but now an evil wizard has collected the keys needed to reach the fourth floor, and open the new Fifth Stair into a level as yet unformed. if the Heroes can't reach the Fifth Stair before he does then he will be able to rewrite the world in his own image.
on a side note, said wizards live by a coast.