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View Full Version : One of these Planes is not like the others.



Tanuki Tales
2012-06-06, 09:36 AM
Now, let me start this off by saying that this thread pertains more to the cosmology for Dungeons and Dragons across it's multiple editions and the games based upon it, but I'm sure there are plenty of other games out there that share this same oddity.


The Material Plane is unique amongst every other plane that exists amongst a cosmology because unlike any other plane, it's not whole. You have planets orbiting stars with vast voids of nothingness between them that are themselves part of large clusters known as galaxies that make up the plane itself. And even within this paradigm, only a select few planets are capable of supporting life and thus hosting a campaign setting.

But why is this? Why isn't the Material Plane like any other plane written up? The only game system I've ever encountered that's treated the prime setting of the game as close to how the other planes are designed is Exalted, with Creation functioning very much like a plane (albeit a finite one).

Is it because game designers feel that players and DMs/GMs/ST/etc. can't wrap their heads around the main world of mortals being a never ending stretch of Earth-like environs? Or do they feel that people identify more easily if the core playing field for the game mimics our own world?

Now, the massive popularity of Planescape and Exalted do show that this is not necessarily true, but that doesn't stop games from defaulting to using a real world universe inspired build for their "Material Plane" and then having any subsequent planes be the complete opposite. In fact, I don't know of a game where the other planes of existence mimic the Material Plane's normal set up.


Thoughts?

Radar
2012-06-06, 09:55 AM
Well... I guess it's more or less the same thing as with aliens/fantasy sentients - you have uniformly themed places as much as you have token proud warrior race. Since focus is usualy put on a single plane, where most of the action will take place, all others are just rough scetches (place for evil dudes and dudettes to live in, place for good people to live in, place for dead people to live in etc.).

Making the Matrial Plane similar to our world in composition is also a matter of convenience: in most situations you won't even notice, that the world is round anyway.

Gravitron5000
2012-06-06, 10:02 AM
I'm not sure about 3.X, but in 2e there were a great many material planes, with the prime material plane being the one that you generally focused on. That gives you plenty of opportunities for bar arguments over who's plane is actually the prime. Disregarding specific setting cosmology, the DM was pretty well free to give a material plane whatever structure that they choose, or to leave the cosmos in an undefined state due to it not mattering in the game that they are running.

Kol Korran
2012-06-06, 10:05 AM
i haven't given this much thought, but here are some of mine:

1) i think that the other planes, not the material plane, are the unwhole ones. the material plane has a bit of everything- the elements, all the alignements, types of terrain and the like. the other elements are formed around certain ideals/ concepts/ elements and so on, and so they don't "give the whole experience". the material plane is allowed to be what is is.

2) who said the material plane has stars, galaxies and such? i think it is wrong to assume that all (or even most) published campaign setting exist in the same material planes. in some the starts are representations of the gods, in some the other stars ARE other planes and so on.

besides- other than spell jammer, i haven't seen a campaign that explores the many stars of the universe. and even spell jammer tends to find more life and trouble than many things

3) um... the astral plane? a place that is mostly space? or the ether? i'm sure there are other planes. you can consider the "material" of the material plane to be void, if you will. but there are some outer realms that have a lot of void as well.

4)

Or do they feel that people identify more easily if the core playing field for the game mimics our own world?
i think this is how things started at least... it was just the easiest thing to do. most new players often rely on legends and stories told in the real world, which most (though not all) revolve around earth like features. note that most people (at least to my knowledge) spend most of their adventures on similar features. most times other planes are very poorly described, and hard to adjuciate for, plan for, and conceptually grab well enough to be believable.

5)

Now, the massive popularity of Planescape and Exalted do show that this is not necessarily true,. i'm not sure your assesement is correct. now, i don't know of Exalted (never played it), but Planescape, though wonderful, doesn't come close in popularity to the combined fan base of FR, Eberron, Greyhawk and other settings. in comparison it's popularity is quite minor (unfortunately)

also- Planescape is a special setting in that it's a setting that connects settings, but remember that most of it takes place in one city (that is NOT infinite if i remember correctly) which is terran like, if bizarre and exotic- fundamentally it is a big city with spices (and gateways to other places). even this setting need something familiar enough to start in.

my conclusion? there wasn't supposed to be one, just sharing thoughts, but i think the premise is somewhat lacking. the prime material is different from other planes, but i think it's because it's the nexus of all their influences, where they sort of "drain" into. at least my interpretation.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-06-06, 10:09 AM
Well... lets put it this way, unless you're traveling in space, will you even notice? (And if you're doing space travel you probably don't have planes anyway.. you have planets with climates that are the same across the entire globe. :p)

My personal assumption in the planes being so different is simply because that's how inhabitants of a fantasy world would view them, because from their point of view they aren't that different. They don't have the hubble telescope to tell them all the stars up there are billions and billions of miles away. At the most they might be aware of other planets, but that's still very small compared to the universe. So from their point of view the other planes are similar enough, they don't seem to have planets true, but they have their own quirks.

Or if you're so inclined, whats to say that what the planescape books describe in general isn't just the characteristics of one planet in a parallel universe? Yes I know this isn't exactly stated by RAW, but I don't see a reason to not treat them as similar. (Either the material plane to the others as in at the most the solar system exist, or the other planes are similar to the material plane in that it has an infinite or near infinite universe.)

Anxe
2012-06-06, 10:16 AM
I agree with Kol Korran. The material plane is more complete than the other planes. That's why it has volcanoes and meadows and forests all in the same plane. It's literally more real than the other planes. This is also part of why outsiders like to fight for influence over the material plane. They want the real world, not the reflection in their world.

As for stars... That's never been fully explained to me. Sometimes they're other planes and outer space is actually the Astral plane. Sometimes they're distant portals to the Far Realm. Sometimes they're just stars like in real life. Sometimes they're decorations on the sky god's clothing.

Reluctance
2012-06-06, 10:31 AM
The only parallel you can assume between a D&D prime material world and our own is that planets are balls. Even that's tweaked on occasion. The few settings that have focused on what happens if you fly up high enough tend to keep things fairly self-contained, while most simply don't care.

If you're asking why the material plane isn't a roughly homogeneous setting that extends to infinity in all directions, it comes down to a fundamental axiom of fantasy. You want to give the real-world humans who comprise your readership familiar points to latch onto.

jackattack
2012-06-06, 10:45 AM
Unless you are playing Spelljammer, there is no actual reason for the Prime Material Plane to be like the real world.

For that matter, there's no reason for characters in a medieval or renaissance setting to know the borders of their world, or to believe that there are other worlds like ours. If there are planets in the game sky, they might be rationalized as objects, or stones, or any number of things. Stars might not be seen as distant suns.

One of my game worlds is a spinning disc. If explorers go looking for the ends of the earth, they'll find them fairly easily. Stars are large glowing jewels in the night sky, which may or may not be sentient and may or may not transform if they fall (haven't decided that yet).

Another of my game settings is a patchwork of conjoined worlds, each section created by a different pantheon. Moving from one to another affects the effectiveness of divine magic. Converting large numbers of people can alter worlds.

You could even argue that the Prime Material Plane doesn't exist as such, but is an intersection of every other plane, from elemental forest planes to primordial ocean planes to whatever else. Personally, that makes my head hurt, but if that's how you want your game world to work then have at it.

But overall, unless a campaign is going to span an entire game world, there is no reason to define the limits or the nature of the game world. Unless a campaign will include creatures from other planets or planes, there is no reason to define those either. Spend your time fleshing out the parts of the game world that players will actually interact with, and worry about the rest of it later.

Shadow Lord
2012-06-06, 11:02 AM
In my games, I explain away the Prime Material Realm as a sort of Neutral territory. The Prime Material Realm, in my games, is the default form for every plane, before external factors influence it and change it. The ' Prime ' is simply a plane that hasn't yet evolved into it's full status. In fact, there have been several Prime Material Realms in my games; these last for a few millennium, before a powerful being rises to such power in the realm that the plane itself is altered to suit the vision of that being. Every time one of these Primes splits from neutrality, a new Prime is born to replace it.

That's how I explain it, anyway.

RedWarlock
2012-06-06, 12:07 PM
And actually, in 4e, the Astral Sea has planes which sometimes act like planets, so the Astral winds up more like a solar system, or even a galaxy. (Specifically, the depiction of the Nine Hells in the Manual of the Planes is as a layered spherical planet, rather than a flat, undifferentiated plane.)

Tanuki Tales
2012-06-06, 12:30 PM
I'm not sure about 3.X, but in 2e there were a great many material planes, with the prime material plane being the one that you generally focused on. That gives you plenty of opportunities for bar arguments over who's plane is actually the prime. Disregarding specific setting cosmology, the DM was pretty well free to give a material plane whatever structure that they choose, or to leave the cosmos in an undefined state due to it not mattering in the game that they are running.

But settings like Spelljammer and certain 3rd edition materials make explicit mention that those settings are planets in of themselves (Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Eberron, Faerun).

Lords of Madness even makes it clear one of the titular species of Aberrations come from another planet and that Mindflayers are space travelers who went back in time to the "here and now".


i haven't given this much thought, but here are some of mine:

1) i think that the other planes, not the material plane, are the unwhole ones. the material plane has a bit of everything- the elements, all the alignements, types of terrain and the like. the other elements are formed around certain ideals/ concepts/ elements and so on, and so they don't "give the whole experience". the material plane is allowed to be what is is.

I didn't mean "Whole" in that manner. I meant more how other planes stretch on forever and are more homogenous. You can walk or swim or fly forever in one direction and never suddenly find "empty nothingness death pressure" or "sudden billions upon such miles of death plasma".


2) who said the material plane has stars, galaxies and such? i think it is wrong to assume that all (or even most) published campaign setting exist in the same material planes. in some the starts are representations of the gods, in some the other stars ARE other planes and so on.

Most of the published settings do make mention of this though. At least Eberron, Faerun, Greyhawk and Dark Sun do.


besides- other than spell jammer, i haven't seen a campaign that explores the many stars of the universe. and even spell jammer tends to find more life and trouble than many things

While true, this doesn't deny the fact that's how the settings are set up in their own self contained realities.


3) um... the astral plane? a place that is mostly space? or the ether? i'm sure there are other planes. you can consider the "material" of the material plane to be void, if you will. but there are some outer realms that have a lot of void as well.

The Astral Plane is infinite and homogenous.




5)
. i'm not sure your assesement is correct. now, i don't know of Exalted (never played it), but Planescape, though wonderful, doesn't come close in popularity to the combined fan base of FR, Eberron, Greyhawk and other settings. in comparison it's popularity is quite minor (unfortunately)

Both games are still quite popular and prove that the old paradigm isn't the only paradigm.


also- Planescape is a special setting in that it's a setting that connects settings, but remember that most of it takes place in one city (that is NOT infinite if i remember correctly) which is terran like, if bizarre and exotic- fundamentally it is a big city with spices (and gateways to other places). even this setting need something familiar enough to start in.

For this argument to be true, it'd require the game to only take place in Sigil. How many Planescape campaigns generally only take place in Sigil without exploring outwards?




Well... lets put it this way, unless you're traveling in space, will you even notice? (And if you're doing space travel you probably don't have planes anyway.. you have planets with climates that are the same across the entire globe. :p)

Well, that's not true. Both co-exist.




Or if you're so inclined, whats to say that what the planescape books describe in general isn't just the characteristics of one planet in a parallel universe? Yes I know this isn't exactly stated by RAW, but I don't see a reason to not treat them as similar. (Either the material plane to the others as in at the most the solar system exist, or the other planes are similar to the material plane in that it has an infinite or near infinite universe.)

Because there are mentions through at least 3rd edition lore of the co-existence of other planets and that other planes exist. One is generally finite in space and one is infinite.


Unless you are playing Spelljammer, there is no actual reason for the Prime Material Plane to be like the real world.

It doesn't have to be, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of existing settings take place on a planet.


For that matter, there's no reason for characters in a medieval or renaissance setting to know the borders of their world, or to believe that there are other worlds like ours. If there are planets in the game sky, they might be rationalized as objects, or stones, or any number of things. Stars might not be seen as distant suns.

Talking from a setting perspective, not from a societal perspective.




But overall, unless a campaign is going to span an entire game world, there is no reason to define the limits or the nature of the game world. Unless a campaign will include creatures from other planets or planes, there is no reason to define those either. Spend your time fleshing out the parts of the game world that players will actually interact with, and worry about the rest of it later.

I'm talking about the established perceptions of the Material Plane, not one's inclinations as a DM to craft as they see fit.

SiuiS
2012-06-06, 04:54 PM
Now, let me start this off by saying that this thread pertains more to the cosmology for Dungeons and Dragons across it's multiple editions and the games based upon it, but I'm sure there are plenty of other games out there that share this same oddity.


The Material Plane is unique amongst every other plane that exists amongst a cosmology because unlike any other plane, it's not whole. You have planets orbiting stars with vast voids of nothingness between them that are themselves part of large clusters known as galaxies that make up the plane itself. And even within this paradigm, only a select few planets are capable of supporting life and thus hosting a campaign setting.

But why is this? Why isn't the Material Plane like any other plane written up? The only game system I've ever encountered that's treated the prime setting of the game as close to how the other planes are designed is Exalted, with Creation functioning very much like a plane (albeit a finite one).

Is it because game designers feel that players and DMs/GMs/ST/etc. can't wrap their heads around the main world of mortals being a never ending stretch of Earth-like environs? Or do they feel that people identify more easily if the core playing field for the game mimics our own world?

Now, the massive popularity of Planescape and Exalted do show that this is not necessarily true, but that doesn't stop games from defaulting to using a real world universe inspired build for their "Material Plane" and then having any subsequent planes be the complete opposite. In fact, I don't know of a game where the other planes of existence mimic the Material Plane's normal set up.


Thoughts?

The thing is, until spelljammer they weren't. I myself play the material like a vast, flat expanse, or one time like a massive, infinite parabolic cone with the sun close enough to the point that the majority of the world functioned as if it were round.

However, I think the key is in what you yourself said; the material plane contains planets, or plane-ettes. Each planet is a demiplane, and this means that concievably each out plane has its own planets, possibly even considering each layer as a planet that seems flat and infinite once you're there, but is like a drop flying through space otherwise.

This makes each planet more of a destination and portal. And other planes have gaps, too, as inhospitable as space but different. The elemental plane of wary has huge caverns, size of continents. That's as good as space to earth elementals. Etc.

Tanuki Tales
2012-06-06, 05:23 PM
However, I think the key is in what you yourself said; the material plane contains planets, or plane-ettes. Each planet is a demiplane, and this means that concievably each out plane has its own planets, possibly even considering each layer as a planet that seems flat and infinite once you're there, but is like a drop flying through space otherwise.

But is there any established instances of this though? As far as I'm aware is that each Material Plane is a single planet in a reality based universe while the planes are flat, infinite homogenous universes onto themselves (except maybe Shadow and Etheral, but I was never too sure if they were the same size as the Material).


This makes each planet more of a destination and portal. And other planes have gaps, too, as inhospitable as space but different. The elemental plane of wary has huge caverns, size of continents. That's as good as space to earth elementals. Etc.

Eh, not as inhospitable as space tends to get statted up.

NichG
2012-06-06, 06:32 PM
I actually like the idea of breaking up the other planes so that there are realms separated by boundaries of various natural challenges that need to be defeated to explore. Makes things more interesting than endless terrain.

Ysgard has its earth-bergs which are kind of like that. Carceri has its endless chain of realms within realms. Acheron has its cubes floating in a void. But the others could stand to do this too.

7RED7
2012-06-06, 08:56 PM
In reading mentions of the stars and whether they are gods, far realm entities or portals, or just stars/planets/etc. I thought I would throw an interesting interpretation of the far realm into the mix.

The far realm is the moebius plane of the material and it's reflections. Imagine a coordinate system that is measured in spacial displacement from the center of the prime material plane, and planar displacement through reflection planes (where the more like the material plane, the lesser it's 'displacement', and the less like the material plane, the greater it's 'displacement'). A system of real and imaginary co-ordinates if you will. In this coordinate system the far realm exists at the incomprehensible infinity and end of each axis, but is connected to the prime by the unbridgeable gap of the stellar void. The far realm exists on a scale beyond reality's ability to control it with natural law. It is the twist in the moebius plane. If one were to have the incomprehensible wisdom and endless intelligence of the greatest fusion fueled beings in the void, then they might be able to look far enough through the void of space, through the anti-natural far realm, and back through the color of the planes between them, full circle and see the completely inverted version of their self (their moebius inverse). It has been recorded in ancient tomes, guarded under penalties worse then death, un-death, and alldeath itself, that when this occurs the viewer collapses in on themselves and a new star is born at the very point where imagination and reality converge, leaving behind nothing but a dark hunger that stalks the void for any source of light or life.

The overmind Sol is the only known entity to have managed to re-traverse both the spatial and planar systems and return to the prime material, although at great cost to life and intellect.

When the mind fails to comprehend the infinity before it, there slumber the stars.

DigoDragon
2012-06-07, 07:20 AM
I always thought of the other non-material planes as being described that way because there's so little data on it. One game master I played under wanted to run an exploratory Planescape campaign where the party was off to map one of the planes completely.
The premise was that a party had done so before and realized the other plane was no more infiniate than the prime material one and they vanished in a web of conspiracy when they attempted to report their findings in Sigil.

In my own homebrewed campaign world, the other planes are actually other planets, some within the same star system. Lack of scientific knowledge means these "planes" are their own separate worlds in the wrong sense. :smallsmile:

Griffith!
2012-06-07, 07:28 PM
My interpretation of it was always that the Prime Material plane was the plane from which everything else radiates. I mean, I know the Prime isn't the center of the multiverse and I know the multiverse is technically more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly planar stuff than a disc, but hear me out.

Everything else on the Planes exists somewhere on the Prime. There's the obvious - earth, wind, fire, water, shadow... And the less obvious, like the abyss being reflected in a thousand stories of the afterlife or all those tales of Angels. Even the other material planes - they're all variations of the same theme, all reflections of the Prime.

It kind of falls apart when you bump into the more abstract planes like limbo or the astral sea.

But that's just my take on it - the problem with the planes is, perception kind of defines reality. Whatever you believe is probably true.

Mnemnosyne
2012-06-07, 11:58 PM
Under the 'standard' cosmology (that which most of the published settings exist in), there are no 'galaxies', for one. The Prime Material plane made up of an infinite number of crystal spheres, and no known crystal sphere is bigger than a solar system or so. It should also be noted that all sorts of planetary arrangements are possible - it even makes mention of starbeasts, which represent the old idea of giant creatures that physically carry the worlds around. While the crystal spheres the standard campaign settings are set in work pretty much like a solar system, another might actually have flat worlds carried on the backs of giant animals.

That said, the reason for the Prime to be set up generally around the concept of earth bodies (earthlike planets) orbiting fire bodies (suns) is very likely to be familiarity, as you suggested. A large number of people like their fantasy to still feel realistic to a certain degree and therefore they would prefer a 'core' to the setting that is familiar to them. That's probably why planes and crystal spheres were set up - they wanted to allow for the fantastic, but also provide grounding for the player and DM who wants to keep a sense of familiarity in the setting.

Seharvepernfan
2012-06-08, 02:57 AM
I've thought about some of this myself, and here's how I addressed in my homebrew.

The planes of my world (actually worlds - many planets in a galaxy connected by wormholes and portals) are finite. The elemental and positive/negative energy planes are two-dimensional - you can't go there, and the outer planes are anchored to this galaxy.

The outer planes are somewhat "subjective" - they aren't as "real" as the material plane. First, they wrap around, meaning that if you walk or fly in one direction long enough, you'll eventually return to that spot. You aren't being diverted, it's more like the plane is moving itself to keep you in its' center. They are huge, however, having as much "floorspace" as a continent or even a planet, perhaps more. I haven't given much thought to what happens if you fly up or dig down too far. They are slowly growing as more souls reach them.

I like eberrons' idea of a planar solar system, with the planes being closer or farther away, and in motion - still wrestling with that idea.

Outside of the galaxy on the material plane is the rest of the universe, outside of the galaxy on all the other planes is the far realm. Other galaxies may have their own cosmologies, but I never plan on thinking about that. One galaxy is big enough.

There are not infinite amounts of outsiders, but each plane is constantly getting more souls from the prime to use to make more outsiders.

The deal with that is, the negative energy plane is constantly sucking positive energy from the positive energy plane, and the positive energy gets pulled through the inner planes, through the material plane (where it attaches to matter [creatures] and becomes a soul), the souls then exit the body upon death, going through the ethereal plane to whichever outer plane the soul's alignment matches. Only the positive energy that gets attached to a creature ends up in the outer planes - kinda like a tidal pool.

It's impossible to picture, but the positive energy plane is the "center", then the inner planes, then the shadow/material/ethereal, then the astral/outer and the negative energy - both of which are "the farthest", outside of all of this is the far realm.

The outer planes also have a dimension similar to this: mechanus is the "center", limbo is the "farthest", the upper planes are "higher", the lower are lower.

The center of the galaxy is the anchor point. The planes get weaker the farther from the center you go, the far realm becoming a problem as you get out to the galactic edge.

Seharvepernfan
2012-06-09, 02:22 AM
So weird.

I kill probably half of the threads I post in.

RedWarlock
2012-06-09, 05:01 PM
So weird.

I kill probably half of the threads I post in.

I often feel the same way. Just coincidence, I think. (that, or my final argument is often so amazing that no one has a good rebuttal! :smallbiggrin: )

XionUnborn01
2012-06-29, 10:39 AM
I usually run the cosmology as being an entire solar system. the nine hells are parts of a planet closer to the sun, same with the plane of fire etc. Celestia is a planet further from the sun that isn't freezing because it's heaven and such. plane shifting is like a planet hop. my players usually enjoy that setting. I actually had a warforged character have the spell that puts you into orbit cast on him and he decided to 'swim' to the moon.

Khedrac
2012-06-29, 01:45 PM
I admit to scanning most of the posts above so I apolgise if I am just restating:

If you go back to BECMI D&D then the other planes are not as you have described...

The out planes are a right mixture - some are universe sized, others you can fit in a matchbox (anywhere between 1 and 5 dimensions too).

The elemental planes are not that most AD&D players will recognise either. They have worlds and stars and voids between, but but they are pretty much comprised of one element.
Yes the Plane of Fire has planets of solid fire circling suns etc...