Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

[Lord_Gareth]

I have pretty close to zero knowledge of what qualifies as anime, so I didn't say Miyazaki. His work would be first, with Princess Mononoke being my favorite of his.


Last I knew, "Anime" is simply an art style, though the term usually carries connotations of japanese-style storytelling.

[Morph Bark]

Does the live-action version of "Speed Racer" count?
Does Samurai Jack count? (I have cosplayed as him).

I have pretty close to zero knowledge of what qualifies as anime, so I didn't say Miyazaki. His work would be first, with Princess Mononoke being my favorite of his.

Short version? Anime = Japanese cartoons.
Long version? Anime = Japanese cartoons, often based on manga series or games (including many ero games, but most such anime may not even have any ecchi in it quite a bit of the time), distantly based on Disney cartoons in the past.

The only non-Japanese cartoons I've seen being counted as anime were the Avatar series. :smalltongue:


Still haven't seen much Miyazaki. You have no idea how difficult it is around here to find his DVDs. The only shop I found that had them (or any Anime, really) only had the god-awful German Language version.And I couldn't find any working torrents for some reason.

Oh gods, yes. One of my friends likes to have those movies on DVD and I believe he was pretty lucky in getting a copy of Ponyo here.


But,
Cowboy Bebop
Ghost in the Shell
Evangelion
Trigun
Bokurano
Hellsing

Probably my A-list? Not counting stuff like Miyazaki movies (who doesn't like those?). I might be forgetting something...

I have to admit out of those, I've only seen one Ghost in the Shell movie (the first one, I think?) and Evangelion halfway through (then I stopped because I wasn't into mecha or the psychological stuff, though later I proceeded to watch anime with elements of either). Well, and one episode of Hellsing. (:smalltongue:) I haven't heard of Bokurano though, what is that one about? Cowboy Bebop and Hellsing are still on my to-watch list. I should probably make a permanent one of those...

I actually have an Animelist account, but haven't used it much, so I haven't updated it with all the little anime I've seen (or correctly kept track of the bigger names, like Naruto and Shaman King).



Rerailing:

What makes you think the thread was off the rails? :smallwink:

As said earlier, I am currently working on another big thing, which is looking like it will include over a hundred listed items. As such, I'll be taking a look at your stuff, but it will have to wait until quite a bit later, 'mafraid.

[Pyromancer999]

My spirit is a good girl and doesn't afraid of anything!


AND IS A TSUNDERE!

:smallbiggrin:



You make me think I should try cosplaying that though. :smalltongue:


And so began a new wave/type of cosplay.



On that note, while I continue to work behind the screens on Something Completely Different, I've actually gotten kinda curious how many anime fans are amongst the homebrewers here, what their favourite anime are (and favourite characters or other parts of anime). So, spill! :smallbiggrin:



Wow....so many people with levels in Otaku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12370781&postcount=10).....

including me.

Only anime I've really like are Pokemon(Original) and Shaman King, which also happens to be my favorite manga of all time. I also read a lot of other manga, which would probably fill 3-4 posts if I listed the total amount of series, but ongoing favorites include Beelzebub and Fairy Tail.

Also, so much suspense building up as to what the Something Different shall be. :smallbiggrin: Noseriouslytellmewhatitisbecausethesuspenseiskilli ngme. Sheesh.

[Techwarrior]

I always enjoyed Something Different sandwiches, as one of my ex's called them.

Basically you take an insomniac who hasn't slept in over a week and make him make you a sandwich...

[Zaydos]

Now I feel bad for only listing my favorite and not just anime I liked :smallbiggrin:

Outlaw Star, Trigun, G Gundam, TTGL (even if I think it doesn't live up to the hype it was good), Puella Magi Madoka, Full Metal Alchemist (never watched all of either series, I liked what I saw of Brotherhood but I'd already read the manga so didn't watch it to religiously), Mirai Nikki, Fate Zero (only watched the first half), Yu Yu Hakusho, Inu Yasha, and many more which aren't coming readily to mind right now. Manga... the list is longer and less action heavy.

[JeminiZero]

Potemayo (who would have guessed that huh?)
Full Metal Panic Fumoffu (and thus I reveal my venerable age)
Ouran High School Host Club
Mai Hime

[Xefas]

...I think Trigun took really long to get good after a rather annoying start, but otherwise I agree.
I also like Death Note a lot. And TTGL somehow managed to balance at just the right point between annoying and great to keep me watching it.

Trigun was a bit slow, yeah. And I can't believe I forgot Death Note! I knew I had a nagging feeling for a reason. Definitely Death Note.


Well, I haven't seen Bokurano (nor do I really know what it is), and...


I haven't heard of Bokurano though, what is that one about?

It's sad. I watched it with my girlfriend at the time, and we were both sobbing on more than one occasion.

Basically, it's modern day. In the first episode, Earth is threatened by some extradimensional horrors from beyond our reality. But, some kids find a power that will let them defeat these cosmic monsters.

However, every time this power is used, the user dies. And these kids, having discovered it, are the only ones who can use it. And, if they don't, our universe will be devoured by horrible aliens.

So, each episode follows the life of a different character. You learn about them, and the circumstances they live in. And then, at the end of the episode, they decide to be the one to use the power to save the world that time, and then die. It's tragic and painful, and really well done.

(Also, the power is a giant robot, but don't let that turn you off D=. It's not about robots! It's about the tragedy of death!)

I suggest watching the opener (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05p646nlYS0) and, whenever you see a child, think of them in the context that, whatever they're doing in that scene, they know that, at the end of that day, they're going to be dead. And, worse, they're going to have to choose death. They don't just get to die, they have to actually fight for their death, so that the world may live. And yeah. If you do that, you should know whether Bokurano is for you or not.

[Noctis Vigil]

Anime, eh? I do loves me some of dat anime. Personal favorites (in no particular order):

Anything Miyazaki/Ghibli
Toradora
Eureka 7
DearS
Fruits Basket
Rurouni Kenshin
Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood
Ah! My Goddess
Dragon Ball
Dragon Ball Z
History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi
Love Hina
Chobits
The Mystic Archives of Dantalian
Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu
Infinite Stratos
Ai****eruzu Baby
C^3
Trigun
Kaze no Stigma
Rozen Maiden
Ouran High School Host Club

I also tend to like anything of the harem comedy genre.

There are a few I've honestly tried to get into and just couldn't. Some I just couldn't get into (Evangelion), some were just bad but over-hyped (Death Note), and some just plain strayed so far from the original manga or so overloaded on filler as to be terrible (the original Fullmetal Alchemist, Naruto, Bleach after episode 120 or so).

I'm interested in what manga people read as well. Do other people here do that, or is it just me?

I'm, ah, something of an otaku, yes. >.>

[Lizard Lord]

Not sure if I have a favorite per say, but I like One Piece (not the 4Kids version, if that really needs to be said), Naruto, Ghost in the Shell, Trigun, Death Note, Soul Eater, and Fullmetal Alchemist (both Brotherhood and the original anime).

[Antonok]

Heres a few that I like that I haven't seen said yet, and worth checking out if you haven't.

Ai Yori Aoshi
Appleseed
Appleseed: Ex Machina
Azumanga Daioh
Bubblegum Crisis
Burst Angel
Gurren Lagann
Needless
Oh! Edo Rocket (Only watched the first couple episodes but they were good)
The Cat Returns

[Milo v3]

I was wondering if I could have my Binder Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249734)Tiered.

Also Darker Than Black is my favourite anime, but only Season One and Gaiden.

[Morph Bark]

AND IS A TSUNDERE!

Ts, baka!

http://i46.tinypic.com/2m43mg7.jpg
Fun fact: to upload this on tinypic, I had to enter the captcha "I'm yours". Lolthewhut.


I suggest watching the opener (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05p646nlYS0) and, whenever you see a child, think of them in the context that, whatever they're doing in that scene, they know that, at the end of that day, they're going to be dead. And, worse, they're going to have to choose death. They don't just get to die, they have to actually fight for their death, so that the world may live. And yeah. If you do that, you should know whether Bokurano is for you or not.

Reaction the first:
D:

Reaction the second:
;_;


Anyhoo, I'll just link to my list of anime (http://myanimelist.net/animelist/morpholomew) and manga (http://myanimelist.net/mangalist/morpholomew), since that's easier. :smalltongue: They are by no means complete, however. I'd seen and read too much before going on there. Most entries are also pretty old, since I haven't been on there for over a year, only coming back since last week upon finishing Code Geass a second time. My ratings tend to be pretty generous though... while I no longer think Haruhi Suzumiya deserves a 10, I still really liked it, and Bleach possibly deserves less the further it's going.


Also, that Something Completely Different thing? I think I am putting that on hold for the moment. I've gotten together all the reviewable material, but in the process I've discovered that there are literally over a 100 single entries from over two dozen different homebrewers across at least four different forums and two wikis. With how far I've gotten with it yet, I'm not even a thirdway in and it's already left me pretty mentally exhausted.

[Eldan]

Aww, Morphie. Take a break, then. :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

I just counted the amount of individual items that are currently lined up for Operation Something Completely Different. Guess how many there are?

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This does not include:
Reworks.
Unfinished items.

This does include:
Items from four different forums.
Items from two different wikis.
Items from 68 different homebrewers (not including collaborators).
25 pages in word solely consisting of coding and bare-bones mechanics.


http://blastr.com/assets_c/2009/10/ExplodingHeadScanners-thumb-550x287-26341.jpg

[Lord_Gareth]

Wow. Sounds like a crapload of work. You sure you want to do it RAIGHT NAO and not do a few more spotlights/class tierings to ease into it?

[Lix Lorn]

And yeah. If you do that, you should know whether Bokurano is for you or not.
All kinds of oh god no. ._.


Wow. Sounds like a crapload of work. You sure you want to do it RAIGHT NAO and not do a few more spotlights/class tierings to ease into it?
Didn't he just say he was putting it on hold? xD

[Kane0]

I just counted the amount of individual items that are currently lined up for Operation Something Completely Different. Guess how many there are?


My guess is:

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/1/1e/Over_9000_Vector_by_Vernacular.jpg/618px-Over_9000_Vector_by_Vernacular.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

[Temotei]

I guessed 102. One hundred two times 1.51967 is really close to that number. :smallsigh:

[Morph Bark]

Wow. Sounds like a crapload of work. You sure you want to do it RAIGHT NAO and not do a few more spotlights/class tierings to ease into it?

Aww, Morphie. Take a break, then. :smallsmile:

I certainly will be doing that. xD


My guess is:

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/1/1e/Over_9000_Vector_by_Vernacular.jpg/618px-Over_9000_Vector_by_Vernacular.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

The amount of views on this thread has certainly reached that point!


I guessed 102. One hundred two times 1.51967 is really close to that number. :smallsigh:

Awww, you guessed I was going to do something special with all the things I've Tiered from people already? :smalltongue:


I've certainly found tons more homebrew of this sort than I ever would have expected, especially if I'd count the unfinished stuff, additions and remakes. I also discovered that I know too few tsunderes outside of big name anime and that finding a non-gross picture of someone whose head is about to explode is still a task, and most headsplosions are either of zombies or male news anchors. Non-zombie headsplosions appear to be a minority and non-zombie female headsplosions inexistent. I love the guy's jacket though. Dibs on that for looting.

[Veklim]

I love the guy's jacket though. Dibs on that for looting.

It's gonna need a dry clean...

[Zale]

Ts, baka!

http://i46.tinypic.com/2m43mg7.jpg
Fun fact: to upload this on tinypic, I had to enter the captcha "I'm yours". Lolthewhut.

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx249/Zale13/Excalibur-Fool.jpg

This is interesting. I'm sure that If I ever.. really.. get around to making a homebrew class, I'll be sure to shove it towards you! :D

[Morph Bark]

Y'know, before I take a short break, an actual short break (who am I kidding, I'll probably not take one in the end after all), I am literally forced to do this one thing.

In the style of the Morph Bark of July 1st, around noontime.

Yaaayyy, it’s another Base Class Challenge! :D

Let’s check this out! Oohh, it’s about races, isn’t it? Cool, I like races, of both kinds. Clever play on that in the title. I’d definitely play with that if I’d have an entry of my own!



1. You will be creating an original base class based around a theme of races (humans, elves, not speed races);

Party pooper! *sticks tongue out at*

So, let’s see what we have here… oohh, elans! One of my favourite races!

SMILEYFACE

…not finished. D:

Okay, okay, that happens sometimes. Things catch up on you when you least expect it, inspiration didn’t come and you can’t build on enthusiasm alone. Let’s just move on to the next entry. Hey, it’s a dwarf! Hey, that artwork looks familiar too. Is that Genzoman? Oh hey, look, the table is all filled out with awesome-sounding abilities! I bet this is some great tanky controller!

…not finished. D:

Okay, okay, breathe. *puff puff* We can make it through this.


I blame my incomplete class on the power outage in the DelMarVa area, i am very annoyed that it happened right in the middle of me working on my class, but it's my fault for trying to do it at the last possible second

Iknowthatfeelbro.jpg

But yeah, see? Unfinished stuff happens, especially when you got a deadline set way ahead, and sometimes the theme just doesn’t end up suiting you after all. Or it does, but inspiration just doesn’t come to you. After all, inspiration is like lightning, it always strikes in the right place at the wrong time. For me, that’s usually right before I sleep. Seriously, like a few seconds. I have a timeframe of a few seconds to kickstart my body again to leap out of bed and write those brainsquirts down. Pretty hard when your bed is like the most seductive pile of sexy, handsome pillows ever. Firm and soft…

…

*wakes up two hours later drooling*

What? Huh? Oh, hey. We were Tiering, right? Huh? What’s with that look? Do I have something on my face? Anyway, let’s just continue on a--HOLY FLICKNIPS WHAT IS THAT?!

It’s so WRINKLY!

What is… what IS that?! It’s called an… an Elder? Damn gurl, you need some cream! Your face is like a willow tree, droopy and sad and hairless! And green! Oh, wait, you’re one of those nutty nature elf subrace ladies. Right. Well let’s say what the Tieridex says about you.

Elder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13291540&postcount=5), the class for old people. Aims to maximize racial abilities by changing around modifiers for stuff to ability scores they get a bonus to and otherwise improve upon their strengths, such as better saves or BAB depending on which ability score they get a bonus to. Is pretty heavy on the spellcasting too, though doesn’t have a huge spell list as they get seven spells known of levels 1-9 by the end.

Wait, they can get good BAB and would still only have a d4 HD? That’s cruel! And Intelligence and Charisma are basically the same in choice? Sad. Some options are pretty hilarious though, like getting Dex to hit points in place of Con. Conduit is a little woahmygod2stronk at level 15, but on the other end it is basically a DM tool is all. Ascendance is a little odd in that they suddenly gain the subtype of a kind of outsider, but overall the Elder’s turned out to be a lot less icky than I thought at the beginning. It’s actually pretty cool.

They just have to keep using the cream. Seriously.

So then we get to… OHMYGOD. CHANGELINGS. MY TRUE LOVE.

Oh, also not finished.

Hold yourself together, Day.

Okay, okay. Savages (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13305263&postcount=7), right? Right! Heh. Hm. Oh, this one looks pretty generic. Hm, kind of a clever move though, that means it’d be more likely to see play. Feels a lot like a monster class, this one, bonus points for that. Very Str-Con focused here, so it covers the minotaur, ogre, possibly giant… oh, they get regeneration, so trolls too! Damn, no wonder it’s called the Savage. Right, let’s build an NPC out of this and put him on MythBusters!

Unfinished gnomes. Insert height joke?

Hey, warforged, one of those cool Eberroni guys. Nice. Awesome speech to start right off with! …what is my brother doing giving speeches to warforged.

Starforge… wasn’t that a plot point in one of the Star Wars games?

Hot damn, this Trueforged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248364) class has nearly as many class abilities as it has levels, and that’s not even counting sub-abilities and picks for those Forge Gift thingies! Hmmm, appears to use a kind of ‘token’ system? Interesting. Well Forge makes it apparent this is a melee class, presumably. Trueblast makes me think this guy’s been watching a lot of Marvel movies lately. This is probably the Iron Man to the Savage’s Hulk. I guess that makes the Elder into… Nick Fury? Captain America is older, but he doesn’t really fit.

Anyway, Propel just helps that whole idea and then we get to Forge Gifts, which should be something big for this class since it has so many other abilities. *rubs hands* Let’s see what it is! …spells. They can activate spells of up to level 3 and have up to 2 active at a time. Just spells. I probably shouldn’t have overhyped it for myself, but it probably would be nice to see a few unique additions to the Forge Gifts, like new spells or such, possibly a little higher level too or more of them at once. As-is it seems a little weak. I very much like the new warforged feats, shows the creator put a lot of work into it. Also, ‘Omni Blast’? Yeah, we’re full circle again, Tony.

Alright, next up: Faerie Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13400120&postcount=11). To be honest, upon first look over I thought it was unfinished, but I guess not. It’s pretty low on the Tiers for sure, but from what I know of Dspeyer that is prettymuch a specialty of his. I presume he might be going for low-Tier again here as well, and he does have some original abilities that are nice, such as Mundane Acceleration, but with only a handful of those that aren’t much it doesn’t get far.

I’ll tell ya one thing though, I like the picture. Made my face go to the same expression straight away.

Death Seeker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248340) incoming! Boy, another dwarf class? I wouldn’t have expected two of the same race, a bold move on part of this guy. Then again, the other one never got finished due to technical difficulties, so perhaps luck was on his side. He certainly did pick a great picture to go with the class, wonder if the rest is like that too.

Hmm, basically appears to be an unarmoured barbarian with some ranger abilities and pounce at level 3. I never understood classes that got pounce before they could use multiple attacks and this class isn’t using two-weapon fighting for as far as I can see. Then again, the official barbarian has that problem too with the Lion Totem ACF, but at least a rage variant or two give him multiple attacks if he wishes.

Chase is a wicked nice ability and any DM reading it as “increasing” the Death Seeker’s speed to a lower speed than his base land speed deserves to get a boot to the head. Fighting Death plus Hard to Kill is nice. Far charge too, but I wonder what happened to the middle stage where you can move thrice land speed on a charge. Overall a pretty good class in the end still, and perhaps I give it flack in the wrong areas for having played several barbarians in a row and loving it.

Anyway, I’m afraid I have to stop here. You see, I used to be a player like you, but then I took a Homebrew Tier Compendium to the brain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13481487&postcount=13).

…wait.



2. Submissions are due by July 1st, and should be submitted in the format shown in the next post. Feel free to play around with fonts, images, and the like, but make sure the end result is easy on the eyes.


due by July 1st


July 1st

…

BRB, I’VE GOT A RACE TO RACE.


To be continued...

[TheWombatOfDoom]

That was highly entertaining, I must say.

[Temotei]

Just in case you weren't sure, yeah, the Star Forge was in Knights of the Old Republic.

[Morph Bark]

SPOILERS AHEAD
I SAID THAT IN THE PLURAL FORM SO GUESS WHAT

Everything is in the next spoiler, that’s what.

AND BY THAT I MEAN YOU WILL TAKE SPOILERS--

TO THE KNEE!

Dovahkiin, Dovahkiin,
Naal lok zin los vaahrin
Wa dein vokul
Maeferaahk ast vaal?

Or something like that, the dragon language is so hard to spell. I really hope they never invent the internet, they’d be SUCH a bunch of Grammar Nazis to each other, let alone to us. Anyway, over two weeks have passed since the deadline of the BCC, and I just barely made it in! I seriously started thinking about my class just after noontime and finished it mostly before dinner, with a few tweaks well into the evening. When I got up again, I saw that the class posted before mine had been finished as well, which I had not expected. This class was made by Pyromancer999, and you know that when a man’s name includes a reference to burning your pants straight off, you must have a death wish to challenge him. Undoubtedly that is why the Death Seeker decided to attend the party, so at least I am not alone in being completely suicidal and full of BURNING PASSION. After all, I’m fighting so that Temotei will allow me to keep my kneecaps and even though he’s totally my second lover I think I could take him on in hockey, I’m sure he has something up his sleeves. Pyromancer may burn pants all he likes, I will be the one to blow everyone away! Because I have tons of fans. Y’know, the blowy things. I got one in XL size. It’s bigger than the truck I don’t have.

The Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13481487&postcount=13 ) is inspired by the main character of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, of which I totally do not have a map of the land hanging in my room right behind my laptop as I speak.

…six dead levels. What. Whaaaatt. Three of those without a new Dragon Shout. Whaaaatt. At levels that saves don’t even increase. ;_; PYRO, COME ON. I WANT YOU TO BURN MY PANTS OFF. BURN MY PANTS OFF, NOT SOAK THEM IN TEARS.

*gets hit by Elemental Breath* Oh hey, fire! Burning! I smell like burning!

I am not crazy. It will become true if I say it enough.

I sadly haven’t finished the game, only getting up to the Embassy (and failing that mission since I forgot to give the Wood Elf all the stuff I’d need due to a misunderstanding), though I did nearly become head of the Thieves’ Guild, Archmage and leader of the Companions, so there’s that… anyway, what I mean to say is that I don’t have knowledge all that extensively on all the Dragon Shouts, just a few of them, but it seems to me like Pyromancer did a pretty good job of implementing them and I like how he did the little Perk things with them.

One thing though: in the Dragon Shout ability he says how a Dovahkiin “gains access to the Second Word at 6th, and the Third Word at 12th level”. In the class table it puts those Words at level 9 and 15 respectively. The first level ability Draconic Child also is nowhere to be found. Overall, it’s a pretty solid Tier 4 class. I would probably have given them more Shouts myself and a few tiny abilities to fill up the dead levels (at least 7, 13 and 19). Pyromancer has 19 Shouts written up, of which they gain just less than half. The progression is nice and steady though.


And now, for the first time in Tiering history,

I get to present one of my own works! :D

*shot and dragged off stage*


(Seriously though, I could do something like this on the Son of Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248319) as well, but I’m not sure if I should. It is part of the reason I broke off the earlier post like that, but in the meantime I got to thinking that maybe I shouldn’t put any focus at all on my own works. I mean, I’m sure there would be some way in which that’d be unethical or something, right?)

This post was brought to you by Editing Ltd., because no post should include a lot of rambling about wearing skirts that are on fire.

[kanachi]

Hey, warforged, one of those cool Eberroni guys. Nice. Awesome speech to start right off with! …what is my brother doing giving speeches to warforged.

Starforge… wasn’t that a plot point in one of the Star Wars games?

Hot damn, this Trueforged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248364) class has nearly as many class abilities as it has levels, and that’s not even counting sub-abilities and picks for those Forge Gift thingies!

Haha awesome stuff Morph, you nailed everything spot on.

I think the newer version of the class (outside the contest) is a bit more potent and offers up a little more to the player. I like your idea off adding new/alternate things to the forge gifts list as well. This is something i kinda though about doing but ran out of time on, I will go back and think up some cool things to add though.

anyway if you want to see the class in its out of contest form check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248364)

[Pyromancer999]

Thanks for the comments on the Dovahkiin as it is, Morph. Granted, I too hate the dead levels and other errors in the class, but that's more a result of it not being finished and my having to work to the deadline to finish just the Dragon Shouts. I've also been busy since the deadline, but I should be able to finish it up this weekend, so that it'll include:


A better progression
Typing errors fixed
Legit perks from the game(probably will rename the existing perks, deciding between Morphemes and Vowels)
Tad bit of love for the mage side of the class, although it'll still focus more on the thief and warrior aspects of the class


So no worries, all shall be better/well. It'd also be nice if I could get it tiered after it's finished, if you've got the time and/or energy to do it when it's been completed and seems settled on a final version.

[kanachi]

I've also been busy since the deadline, but I should be able to finish it up this weekend.

I've been hoping you would return to this class. I think it shows great promise!

[Baphomet]

I was actually hoping that people would do this sort of thing for the classes I made when I made them, because I am notoriously bad at judging relative power levels. The Shadepriest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239765), if you would be so kind.

[Temotei]

How about the magitech templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276)? I'm really, really tired, but let's see what I can pick for tags. Maybe Steampunk, Comic, and a handful of Role tags like Melee, Ranged, and maybe Tank because of Interpose, but that's a bit of a stretch.

So tired. Sleeeepepeppepepp. :smalleek:

[Morph Bark]

I was actually hoping that people would do this sort of thing for the classes I made when I made them, because I am notoriously bad at judging relative power levels. The Shadepriest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239765), if you would be so kind.

Well, it has access to Cleric spells, but limited, so that'd make it Tier 2. The Essence mechanic does put a nice unique spin on it, but also allow for the class to cast level 9 spells many more times during the day, making Essence Drain and the casting mechanic very exploitable. From level 18 onwards, he could get people willing to be Essence Drained in return for money or favours or such and cast miracle many times a day, which allows it to cast any Cleric spell of level 8 or lower and any other spell of level 7 or lower, elevating it to Tier 1 from that point on.


How about the magitech templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276)? I'm really, really tired, but let's see what I can pick for tags. Maybe Steampunk, Comic, and a handful of Role tags like Melee, Ranged, and maybe Tank because of Interpose, but that's a bit of a stretch.

So tired. Sleeeepepeppepepp. :smalleek:

By my guess, you were up 'til 4 AM? Dang, son, momma should tuck you in sooner!

I've seen the Magitech Templar before -- heck, I see a post of mine on the first page right there! :smallbiggrin: Yes, I'll be sure to Tier that one!


Currently, I have a few ideas on things to add to the Tier Compendium. One of them is a new Tier. The other is a section for support of an official subsystem.

You may now start your Wild Mass Guessing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WildMassGuessing) as to what they are.

[Temotei]

By my guess, you were up 'til 4 AM? Dang, son, momma should tuck you in sooner!

Indeed. I'm usually up at least until 2:00, but last night was really bad. I think it was all the thinking on the MUHA entry.


Currently, I have a few ideas on things to add to the Tier Compendium. One of them is a new Tier. The other is a section for support of an official subsystem.

You may now start your Wild Mass Guessing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WildMassGuessing) as to what they are.

Tier 1-2 is my guess for that. I'll pass on the other guess.

[Eldan]

Offiical subsystem? Well, you have done ToB. The other big one is Psionics, but that's boring. So, I'm saying Incarnum. It has quite a bit of Homebrew.

[Vauron]

Well, as far as subsystems go, Psionics, Incarnum, Truenaming, Binding, and Shadow magic are all I recall being left. Maybe Weapons of Legacy could count. As Truenaming usually falls under 'fixes', my guess is that Binding will be next.

[Lix Lorn]

Offiical subsystem? Well, you have done ToB. The other big one is Psionics, but that's boring. So, I'm saying Incarnum. It has quite a bit of Homebrew.
Hey, psionics is awesome.

[Morph Bark]

Indeed. I'm usually up at least until 2:00, but last night was really bad. I think it was all the thinking on the MUHA entry.

Tier 1-2 is my guess for that. I'll pass on the other guess.

I'll be looking forward to judging that then.

Your Tier guess is a little off though!


Well, as far as subsystems go, Psionics, Incarnum, Truenaming, Binding, and Shadow magic are all I recall being left. Maybe Weapons of Legacy could count.

Well it would have to be one of those, wouldn't it? :smalltongue:


Hey, psionics is awesome.

Word. Also, Lix, why are you wearing Strawberries' avatar?

[Lix Lorn]

Word. Also, Lix, why are you wearing Strawberries' avatar?
To confuse people. Duh.

[Temotei]

I'll be looking forward to judging that then.

Your Tier guess is a little off though!

It's my first contest entry (unless you count that one prestige class one which I quit after the second day of trying since it was so boring an idea). Hopefully I didn't screw up super hard. :smalltongue: My goodness, that sounds bad.

Low Tier 2?

[Madara]

I'd like to take a second to celebrate this Compendium being a success. A lot of things come and fail here in the Homebrew Design forum. But above all, Morph Bark is the one making it a success. Even the Compendiums(Check my sig) which are self-service failed, which just goes to show how little effort we are all willing to make.

Apparently begging for the wonderful Morph Bark to Tier our stuff doesn't take too much energy. So thank you Morph, Thank You.

[Zaydos]

I did not even know such a compendium existed. I might have to post in it at some point but right now I'm busy building a new base class.

[Morph Bark]

I'd like to take a second to celebrate this Compendium being a success. A lot of things come and fail here in the Homebrew Design forum. But above all, Morph Bark is the one making it a success. Even the Compendiums(Check my sig) which are self-service failed, which just goes to show how little effort we are all willing to make.

Apparently begging for the wonderful Morph Bark to Tier our stuff doesn't take too much energy. So thank you Morph, Thank You.

You practically making me blush here, especially since it's almost sounds like you insinuate I am making the Homebrew Design forum more of a success with this. :smalltongue::smallredface:

Seriously though, you are very welcome.


In other news, Project Something Completely Different saw the recent addition of 13 more items and due to seeing a thread on another forum about its topic, I decided to speed it up a tiny bit and just say...

Project Something Completely Different, Phase 1: Complete.

Abjurant Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640971&postcount=7)

Creator: Ziegander. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (arcane). Weapons: quarterstaff, short sword, longsword, greatsword, light mace, morningstar, heavy mace. Theme: --. Comments: --

Adamant Cuisine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175066)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: Profession (chef). Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Adamant Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9236947&postcount=8)

Creator: Magocrat. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: spiked armor, heavy shield, heavy spiked shield, light shield, light spiked shield. Theme: --. Comments: --

Aerial Ace (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Aerial_Ace_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Eiji-kun. Tier: Mid. Skill: Tumble. Weapons: All types of bow, all types of crossbow, daggers, falchions, javalins, kukris, lances, scimitars, and all types of spears. Theme: Fighting while flying, possibly supernatural. Comments: Not actually useable at low levels, even by Raptorans, as you need an actual fly speed for it, not glide speed. If using Pathfinder, use the Fly skill instead.

Akasha's Timepiece (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262577)

Creator: jiriku. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (architecture and engineering). Weapons: hypersphere, tesseract. Theme: --. Comments: Supernatural.

Amaranth Eclipse (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Amaranth_Eclipse_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: ThunderGod Cid. Tier: Untiered. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: greatsword, fullblade, greataxe, scythe, halberd. Theme: --. Comments: --

Ancient Temple (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=147.msg492#msg492)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: High. Skill: Profession (gardener). Weapons: Youkai-Forged blades. Theme: --. Comments: --

Anima River (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Anima_River_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Eiji-kun. Tier: --. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: gauntlets (normal and spiked), jian, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, siangham, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Argent Moon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10125146&postcount=1)

Creator: Derjuin. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: bastard sword, longsword, scimitar, two-bladed sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Army of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: battleaxe, dueling shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5632524&postcount=142), glaive, greatsword, longsword, spear. Theme: --. Comments: --

Art of War (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240589)

Creator: Ziegander. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (history). Weapons: battleaxe, bolas, dagger, flail, gauntlet, glaive, greatsword, hand crossbow, lance, longbow, longspear, longsword, morningstar, net, rapier, all shields, shortbow, short sword, throwing axe, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Bitter Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8096955)

Creator: The Vorpal Tribble. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: dwarven waraxes, glots, iuaks, and razor skipdisks. Theme: --. Comments: --

Black Heron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100874)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: Mid-High. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: bastard sword, battleaxe, unarmed strike, greatsword, heavy mace, warhammer. Theme: --. Comments: --

Black Heron (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=144)

Creator: Golden-Esque. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: falchion, flail, morningstar, khopesh, scimitar. Theme: --. Comments: Separate from ErrantX’s Black Heron, but it drew heavy inspiration from the other Black Heron. This discipline is available for download (https://sites.google.com/site/dumpbucketdnd/home/martial-abilities).

Black Lotus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217619)

Creator: Zakaroth. Tier: Mid. Skill: Sleight of Hand. Weapons: any type of dagger, hidden blade, ninja-to, short sword. Theme: --. Comments: An updated version of this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526550/Base_Class_Sublime_Assassin__Black_Lotus_Disciplin e_PEACH_please).

Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: High. Skill: Spot. Weapons: all firearms, plus the concussion blaster, death ray, firewand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5867363#post5867363) and wandgun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5867363#post5867363). Theme: Ranged, gunslinger. Comments: --

Bladed Thoughts (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19522550)

Creator: Yue_Ryong. Tier: High. Skill: Autohypnosis. Weapons: Soul weapons. Theme: Supernatural, anti-psionic/anti-spellcasting. Comments: --

Blood Sage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135459)

Creator: pyrefiend. Tier: --. Skill: Heal. Weapons: dagger, sickle, war-scalpel, kama. Theme: --. Comments: --

Bloody Hammer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230373)

Creator: NeoSeraphi. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: morningstar, warhammer, flail, heavy flail, dire flail, goliath greathammer, minotaur greathammer. Theme: --. Comments: --

Border of Life (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4589.msg64118#msg64118)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: High. Skill: Perform (dance). Weapons: light fan, fan, heavy fan, light warfan, warfan, heavy warfan, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Breath of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143684)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: High. Skill: Spellcraft. Weapons: None. Works only with breath weapons. Theme: Breath weapons, supernatural. Comments: Tier becomes Mid if the breath weapon is in itself rather weak.

Broken Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122533)

Creator: JoshuaZ. Tier: Low. Skill: Martial Lore. Weapons: scimitar, falchion, rapier, bastard sword, longsword, short sword, unarmed strike, greatsword, dagger.. Theme: Countering martial adepts. Comments: Tier becomes Mid when fighting martial adepts.

Broken Wave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9236947&postcount=8)

Creator: Neofish. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: club, glaive, greatclub, morning star, sickle, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Carnal Blossom (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3726)

Creator: Anonymous. Tier: Mid. Skill: Perform (sexual techniques). Weapons: dagger, short sword, mace, bastard sword, spiked chain, unarmed strike, whip, tentacle. Theme: --. Comments: --

Caustic Tempest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67570)

Creator: Krimm Blackleaf. Tier: Mid. Skill: Escape Artist. Weapons: Same as Desert Wind. Theme: Acid version of Desert Wind. Comments: --

Celestial Rain (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=193578)

Creator: hong. Tier: Mid. Skill: Spot. Weapons: longbow, shortbow (and composite versions). Theme: Ranged, many-shooting. Comments: --

Chthonic Serpent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131567)

Creator: DragoonWraith. Tier: Mid-High. Skill: Use Rope. Weapons: dire flail, flail, flindbar, heavy flail, kusari-gama, spiked chain, tentacle, whip. Theme: Grappling, constricting with weapons. Comments: --

Circling Vulture (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181128)

Creator: playswithfire. Tier: --. Skill: Sleight of Hand. Weapons: claw, nunchaku, sai, unarmed strike, whip. Theme: --. Comments: --

Coin’s Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75548)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: --. Skill: Profession (gambler). Weapons: dagger, falchion, longsword, rapier, scimitar, two-bladed sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Crashing Wave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181128)

Creator: playswithfire. Tier: --. Skill: Swim. Weapons: armor spikes, spear, all shields, trident. Theme: --. Comments: --

Crescent Moon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197026)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: --. Skill: Stealth. Weapons: unarmed strike, quarterstaff, light mace, spear, sickle, and star knife. Theme: --. Comments: In normal 3.5, use Hide as the discipline skill instead.

Crescent Moon (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901)

Creator: Nifft. Tier: --. Skill: Spellcraft. Weapons: dagger, quarterstaff, ray, sickle. Theme: --. Comments: Psicraft may be substituted as the discipline skill.

Crystalized Silver (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3458.msg44614#msg44614)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: High. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: heavy mace, spear, flail, heavy pick, shortbow, longsword, greatsword, bastard sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Crystalline Optics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262719)

Creator: jiriku. Tier: --. Skill: Craft (gemcutting). Weapons: hypersphere, tesseract. Theme: --. Comments: Supernatural.

Crystalline Unicorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254698&postcount=9)

Creator: Agent_0042. Tier: --. Skill: Heal. Weapons: dire flail, flail, heavy flail, nunchaku, sai, sickle. Theme: --. Comments: --

Dancing Fox (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901)

Creator: Nifft. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: bola, kama, rapier, sap. Theme: --. Comments: A sort of updated variant of this discipline, Braggart Fox (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=123), was created by Golden-Esque and is available for download here (https://sites.google.com/site/dumpbucketdnd/home/martial-abilities).

Dancing Goddess (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dancing_Goddess_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Eiji-kun. Tier: --. Skill: Perform (dance). Weapons: falchions, rapiers, scimitars, whips, and any light slashing weapon. Theme: --. Comments: --

Dancing Leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: --. Skill: Escape Artist. Weapons: longspear, longsword, quarterstaff, scythe, whip. Theme: --. Comments: There appears to be an updated version here (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=129), which is available for download here (https://sites.google.com/site/dumpbucketdnd/home/martial-abilities).

Desolate Arbitrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12689742)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (the planes). Weapons: unarmed strike, light mace, heavy mace, quarterstaff, warhammer, maul. Theme: --. Comments: --

Diamond Arrow (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=193578)

Creator: hong. Tier: Mid. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: longbow, composite longbow, light crossbow, heavy crossbow. Theme: Ranged, sniping. Comments: --

Divine Flame (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5683.0)

Creator: Anomander. Tier: --. Skill: Craft (explosive). Weapons: control rod, all crossbows, firearms, sapper’s launcher, siege engines, sling. Theme: --. Comments: --

Divine Muse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98668)

Creator: thegurullamen. Tier: --. Skill: Perform? n/a. Weapons: n/a. Theme: --. Comments: --

Doll Judgement (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=146.msg488#msg488)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: High. Skill: Craft (doll). Weapons: n/a. Theme: --. Comments: --

Domestic Tarrasque (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Domestic_Tarrasque_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Foxwarrior. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Dragon’s Fang (http://sorcererstudios.com/showthread.php?126-Dragon-s-Bite-Grappling-ToB-discipline-please-review-and-assisst)

Creator: Soulblazer_87. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: unarmed strike, katar, claw, bite, gauntlet, spiked gauntlet. Theme: --. Comments: --

Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: High. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: bastard sword, battleaxe, claw, falchion, greatsword, scythe. Theme: --. Comments: --

Dream Battle (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4844.0)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: --. Skill: Sense Motive. Weapons: Holy symbols used as improvised weapons, darts, unarmed strike, clubs. Theme: --. Comments: --

Eloquent Speech (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Eloquent_Speech_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Foxwarrior. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Endless Play (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8790277)

Creator: Dead_Jester. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: bastard sword, dagger, greatsword, longsword, rapier, whip. Theme: Playful, semi-silly. Comments: --

Entropy Dynamo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262885)

Creator: jiriku. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (architecture and engineering). Weapons: power gauntlet, powered rapier. Theme: --. Comments: Supernatural.

Elemental Union (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98572)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (the planes). Weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, spear. Theme: --. Comments: Still have to look into this to see which of the two skills is the actual discipline skill, since martial disciplines usually only have one discipline skill.

Essence of Gaia (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6110.0)

Creator: sirpercival. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Essential Cut (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Essential_Cut_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Foxwarrior. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Eternal Glacier (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Eternal_Glacier_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: IGTN. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Eternal Mount (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254716&postcount=10)

Creator: Magocrat. Tier: --. Skill: Ride. Weapons: lance, longspear, longsword, nagamaki, spear. Theme: --. Comments: --

Experimental Alchemy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263846)

Creator: jiriku. Tier: --. Skill: Craft (alchemy). Weapons: acid flask, acidic fire, alchemist’s fire, alchemist’s frost, alchemist’s spark, tanglefoot bag. Theme: --. Comments: --.

Falcon’s Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8103296)

Creator: dspeyer. Tier: --. Skill: Search. Weapons: bows, crossbows (including hand crossbows), rays. Theme: --. Comments: A remix of Fax's Falling Star and I_Got_This_Name's True Arrow with additions by DracoDei and dspeyer.

Falcon Eye (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18832834/The_Sublime_Marksman_PEACH_(a_simple_ranged_martia l_adept_base_class))

Creator: Crimson_Concerto. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: All bows. Theme: --. Comments: --

Falling Anvil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122824)

Creator: DracoDei. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: --. Theme: Silly. Comments: Based off the Looney Tunes?!

Falling Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238217)

Creator: Frog Dragon. Tier: --. Skill: Tumble. Weapons: light flail, heavy flail, warhammer, unarmed strike and maul. Theme: --. Comments: --

Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2502689)

Creator: Crystall_Myr. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: longsword, rapier, greatsword, bastard sword. Theme: --. Comments: NOT ranged, unlike the other two Falling Star disciplines.

Falling Star (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527602/Falling_Star_style:_the_Tenth_Path_of_the_Sublime_ Way)

Creator: Edea and Tempest_Stormwind. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: chakram, dart, javelin, longbow, shuriken, sling, shortbow. Theme: Ranged. Comments: --

Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707)

Creator: Fax Celestis. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: longbow, shortbow, greatbow (and composite versions). Theme: Ranged. Comments: --

Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640971&postcount=7)

Creator: Ziegander. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: dagger, throwing axe, shuriken, light crossbow, heavy crossbow, shortbow, longbow. Theme: Ranged. Comments: Inspired by Edea's Falling Star.

Falling Wave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Far Realm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3410915&postcount=5)

Creator: John "Jack Mann" Beattie and The Logic Ninja. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (the planes). Weapons: armor spikes, blade boot, dire flail, flail, heavy flail, spiked chain, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tentacle. Theme: Madness. Comments: Theme should be obvious with that name. No, this is not Sparta.

Fate's Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14429192)

Creator: Lix Lorn. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: light throwing weapons. Theme: The luck of the draw. Comments: --.

Feral Crescent (http://web.archive.org/web/20070712004121/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=804757)

Creator: Wall. Tier: --. Skill: Control Shape. Weapons: bite, claw, club, greatclub, greataxe, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Flowering Night (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5712)

Creator: Prime32. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: all crossbows, dagger, dart, kukri, short sword, shuriken, all splash weapons. Theme: --. Comments: --

Fool’s Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67879)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: --. Skill: Tumble. Weapons: Any improvised weapon. Theme: Using improvised weapons. Comments: --

Fortunate Assailant (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520194)

Creator: Master Vega. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: dagger, rapier, short sword, cutlass. Theme: --. Comments: --

Fox’s Guile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223452)

Creator: Unosarta. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: kukri, dagger, punching dagger, rapier, short sword, light pick, sickle. Theme: --. Comments: --

Frozen Zephyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67570)

Creator: Krimm Blackleaf. Tier: Low. Skill: Balance. Weapons: Same as Desert Wind. Theme: Cold version of Desert Wind. Comments: --

Gentle Breeze (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40885)

Creator: Closet_Skeleton. Tier: --. Skill: Listen. Weapons: bastard sword, scimitar, war fan, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Giant’s Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181128)

Creator: playswithfire. Tier: --. Skill: Escape Artist. Weapons: claw, mancatcher, scorpion claws, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Glacial Chill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

God Slash (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1420.msg12667#msg12667)

Creator: Risada. Tier: --. Skill: Sense Motive. Weapons: bastard sword, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar. Theme: --. Comments: --

Golden Lion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179884)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: --. Skill: Diplomacy. Weapons: longsword, long spear, ranseur, great axe, trident. Theme: --. Comments: --

Golden Saint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76150)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: Low. Skill: Diplomacy. Weapons: dagger, longspear, longsword, sap, short sword, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Golem Heart (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Golem_Heart_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Eiji-kun. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Heaven’s Arc (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901)

Creator: Nifft. Tier: Mid-High. Skill: Spot. Weapons: longbow, shortbow, javelin, sling. Theme: Ranged, called shots, rain of arrows. Comments: --

Hero's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169940)

Creator: The-Mage-King. Tier: --. Skill: Jump. Weapons: longsword, bastard sword, greatsword, fullblade. Theme: Defeating larger targets and destroying buildings. Comments: --

Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71422)

Creator: Fax Celestis. Tier: --. Skill: Truespeak. Weapons: librum, warbell, heavy warbell, quarterstaff, heavy shield. Theme: Truenaming-based. Comments: --

Ice Eternal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180344)

Creator: Soulblazer87. Tier: --. Skill: Survival. Weapons: All picks, all hammers, handaxes, greatsword, gauntlet, spiked gauntlet. Theme: --. Comments: --

Impassable Passions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235473)

Creator: Dumbledore lives. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: unarmed strike, bastard sword, drill, greatsword, maul. Theme: --. Comments: --

Infernal Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176059)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: unarmed strike, all natural weapon, all improvised weapons. Theme: --. Comments: --

Infinite Lotus (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Infinite_Lotus_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: MisterSinister. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Infinite Torment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102215)

Creator: PairO'Dice Lost. Tier: High. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: longsword, whip, spiked chain, claw. Theme: The Infinite Layers of the Abyss, demons. Comments: --

Inner Light (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640971&postcount=7)

Creator: Ziegander. Tier: --. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: light shields, glaive, longspear, ranseur, short sword, whip. Theme: --. Comments: This is an updated version of the Inner Light discipline by EvilVegan here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254698&postcount=9 ).

Iron Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8103297)

Creator: dspeyer. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: bows, throwing knives (daggers?), javelins, repeating crossbows. Theme: --. Comments: A remix of Fax's Falling Star and I_Got_This_Name's True Arrow with additions by DracoDei and dspeyer.

Iron Tortoise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160377)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: shield, short sword, shortspear, handaxe, battle axe, dwarven waraxe, longsword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Jade Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160101)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: Mid. Skill: Sense Motive. Weapons: rapier, longsword, bastard sword, greatsword, short sword, scimitar. Theme: --. Comments: --

Jade Viper (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901)

Creator: Nifft. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: punching dagger (katar), bite, ranseur, saingham. Theme: Poison, fear. Comments: --

Kaleidoscopic Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86163)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: High. Skill: Tumble. Weapons: blade knuckles, falchion, gutter-sword, halberd, scimitar. Theme: Chaos, unpredictability. Comments: --

Knowing Heart (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136943)

Creator: dspeyer. Tier: High. Skill: Heal. Weapons: sap, net, bolas, whip, quarterstaff. Theme: Pacifist, controller. Comments: Tier is High, despite or perhaps even because of it being a discipline where you don’t actually fight (as in, deal damage, with a few exceptions).

Kuji-Kiri (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204787)

Creator: Chambers. Tier: --. Skill: Sleight of Hand. Weapons: hand crossbow, blow gun, kama, kukri, nunchaku, sai, short bow, short sword, shuriken, siangham. Theme: --. Comments: --

Leaping Gale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Life’s Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181128)

Creator: playswithfire. Tier: --. Skill: Heal. Weapons: kukri, light hammer, punching dagger, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Lightless Divine Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256759)

Creator: GunbladeKnight. Tier: --. Skill: Iaijutsu Focus. Weapons: n/a. Theme: --. Comments: --

Lightning Fox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13098590&postcount=2)

Creator: Person_Man. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Lost Lyrics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71389)

Creator: Kellus. Tier: Mid. Skill: Perform (oratory) or Perform (sing). Weapons: rapier, longsword, longspear, short sword. Theme: Supernatural, bardic music-. Comments: I love this discipline. I really do.

Lunatic Princess (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5894.0)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: --. Skill: Diplomacy. Weapons: Rare Items, ancient powerful artifacts attuned to the iniator. Check link for details. Theme: --. Comments: --

Malfeasant Heart (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189444)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (the planes). Weapons: unarmed strike, spear, shortspear, longspear, lance, greatsword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Mare’s Tail (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12452786&postcount=2)

Creator: eftexar. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: n/a. Theme: --. Comments: --

Masked Moon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Master’s Voice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181128)

Creator: playswithfire. Tier: --. Skill: Perform (oratory). Weapons: blowgun, breath weapon, dragonsbreath*, longsword, short sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Maula Kae (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4885313)

Creator: playswithfire. Tier: --. Skill: Escape Artist. Weapons: unarmed strike, claw, scorpion claws, mancatcher. Theme: --. Comments: Previously known as Monkey Paw.

Mental Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138037)

Creator: DaTedinator. Tier: High. Skill: Autohypnosis. Weapons: unarmed strike, dagger, light hammer, sai, handaxe, scimitar. Theme: Psionic. Comments: --

Mystic Cobra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8336928#post8336928)

Creator: Shyftir and ~Corvus~. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: naginata, glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur, spear, longspear. Theme: --. Comments: --

Mystical Rain (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Mystical_Rain_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Leziad. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

*further content moved to the next post*

[Morph Bark]

Narrow Bridge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982)

Creator: JoshuaZ. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (religion). Weapons: bastard sword, battleaxe, greataxe, scythe, unarmed strike, whip. Theme: Necromancy, undeath. Comments: --

Nightingale Feather (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8103306)

Creator: dspeyer. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: bows, slings, shurukin. Theme: --. Comments: A remix of Fax's Falling Star and I_Got_This_Name's True Arrow with additions by DracoDei and dspeyer.

Ninefold Damnation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98474)

Creator: PairO'Dice Lost. Tier: High. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: glaive, whip, spiked chain, claw. Theme: The Nine Hells of Baator, devils. Comments: --

North Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206674)

Creator: Kellus. Tier: --. Skill: Balance or Ride. Weapons: spear, lance, claw, bite, talon, all breath weapons. Theme: --. Comments: If using Pathfinder rules, the discipline skill is Fly.

Obscured Existence (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Obscured_Existence_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Havvy. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Occult Sovereignty (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Occult_Sovereignty_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Eiji-kun. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Ocean Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205)

Creator: Fax Celestis. Tier: --. Skill: Swim. Weapons: harpoon, net, trident, punching dagger. Theme: Martial arts of the sea. Comments: --

Ocean Tempest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101214)

Creator: PairO’Dice Lost. Tier: Mid. Skill: Swim. Weapons: khopesh, trident, whip, spiked chain, flail. Theme: Martial arts of the sea. Comments: --

Oncoming Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54816)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: Mid. Skill: Sleight of Hand. Weapons: dagger, handaxe, light pick, rapier, sai, short sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Open Tome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188014)

Creator: Unosarta. Tier: --. Skill: Any Knowledge. Weapons: unarmed strike, punching dagger, sickle, spear, quarterstaff. Theme: --. Comments: --

Penitent Martyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197195)

Creator: Edge. Tier: High. Skill: Survival. Weapons: longsword, light flail, heavy flail, bastard sword, spiked chain. Theme: Tank, goodness. Comments: --

Phantasmal Opus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640971&postcount=7)

Creator: Ziegander. Tier: --. Skill: Hide. Weapons: light pick, heavy pick, net, whip, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Phoenix Tear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640971&postcount=7)

Creator: Ziegander. Tier: --. Skill: Heal. Weapons: light shield, light pick, heavy pick, shuriken, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Piercing Point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141042)

Creator: Frog Dragon. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Placid Lake (http://community.wizards.com/yue_ryong/blog/2009/08/28/guardian_of_the_frozen_grotto_and_placid_lake_scho ol)

Creator: Yue_Ryong. Tier: Low. Skill: Move Silently. Weapons: unarmed strike, all natural weapons, scimitar, sickle, scythe. Theme: Cold. Comments: --

Plain History (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=149.msg496#msg496)

Creator: oslecamo. Tier: High. Skill: Knowledge (nobility and royalty). Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Pungeon Pendragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8732731)

Creator: Morph Bark. Tier: Mid. Skill: Truespeak. Weapons: --. Theme: Truenaming-based, semi-silly. Comments: --

Quicksilver Aegis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86266)

Creator: Krimm Blackleaf. Tier: Mid. Skill: Balance. Weapons: greatmace, greatsword, heavy mace, longsword, maul. Theme: Law and order. Comments: --

Raging Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11242121)

Creator: Lix Lorn. Tier: --. Skill: n/a. Weapons: heavy pick, all natural weapons, greatsword, greataxe, rapier. Theme: --. Comments: --

Raging Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177063)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: --. Skill: Jump. Weapons: quarterstaff, dagger, war fan, unarmed strike, javelin, chakram. Theme: --. Comments: --

Raging Storm (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5503)

Creator: RobbyPants. Tier: --. Skill: Survival. Weapons: all bows, javelin, throwing axe, great scimitar, warhammer. Theme: --. Comments: --

Ravening Succubi (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Ravenous_Succubi_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Leziad. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: kukri, unarmed strike, all light piercing weapons. Theme: --. Comments: --

Relentless Dusk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256466)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: n/a. Weapons: n/a. Theme: --. Comments: --

Rending Scream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Rising Spirit (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=262.0)

Creator: veekie and Agita. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: falchion, scimitar, kukri, rapier. Theme: --. Comments: --

Riven Hourglass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220580)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: High. Skill: Perception. Weapons: bastard sword, kukri, two-bladed sword, short sword, flail. Theme: --. Comments: Made for use with Pathfinder skills. In normal 3.5, presumably Spot would be used.

Sacred Might (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Sacred_Might_Discipline)

Creator: PId6. Tier: --. Skill: Spellcraft. Weapons: flail, guisarme, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, morningstar, and spiked chain. Theme: --. Comments: --

Sanguine Brand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140347)

Creator: Golden-Esque. Tier: --. Skill: Forgery. Weapons: dagger, duelist's cloak, rapier, whip. Theme: --. Comments: --

Sanguine Lotus (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901)

Creator: Nifft. Tier: --. Skill: Heal. Weapons: quarterstaff, unarmed strike. Theme: --. Comments: --

Savage Maw (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=194297)

Creator: DogBackward. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: spiked chain, spiked gauntlet, morningstar, scythe, scimitar. Theme: --. Comments: --

Save the Princess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169078)

Creator: Ziegander. Tier: --. Skill: Jump. Weapons: unarmed strike, light hammer, tortoise blade, throwing shield, boomerang. Theme: --. Comments: --

Scarlet Bravura (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5569037)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: --. Skill: Perform (oratory). Weapons: bastard sword, greatsword, lance, rapier, spiked shield. Theme: --. Comments: Inspired by Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

Scarlet Rose (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7232363)

Creator: Nero24200. Tier: --. Skill: Perform (dance). Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Shocking Sky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67570)

Creator: Krimm Blackleaf. Tier: Low-Mid. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: Same as Desert Wind. Theme: Electricity version of Desert Wind. Comments: --

Silver Crane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137386)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: Mid-High. Skill: Perception. Weapons: longsword, longspear, scimitar, light pick, halberd, two-bladed sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Silver Pegasus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Silver Rain (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18832834/The_Sublime_Marksman_PEACH_(a_simple_ranged_martia l_adept_base_class))

Creator: Crimson_Concerto. Tier: --. Skill: Sleight of Hand. Weapons: All thrown weapons. Theme: --. Comments: --

Sky Serpent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254729&postcount=117)

Creator: Zack2216. Tier: --. Skill: n/a. Weapons: unarmed strike, dagger, spear, javelin, quarterstaff, nunchaku, chain whip. Theme: --. Comments: --

Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: --. Skill: Autohypnosis. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: There appears to be an updated version here (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=140), which is available for download here (https://sites.google.com/site/dumpbucketdnd/home/martial-abilities), but it apparently also has taken inspiration from Ye_Ryong’s Bladed Thoughts.

Smoldering Brimstone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254729&postcount=117)

Creator: fatal_error. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: morningstar, flail, battleaxe, glaive. Theme: --. Comments: --

Solar Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193295)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: --. Skill: Perception. Weapons: crossbow (hand, heavy, or light), bow (long or short and composite versions of those bows), shortspear, thrown dagger, sling, throwing axe. Theme: --. Comments: --

Solaris Arcanum (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=110&p=352#p352)

Creator: Golden-Esque. Tier: --. Skill: Spellcraft. Weapons: dagger, katar, stiletto, short sword, sickle. Theme: Semi-spellcasting, anti-spellcasting. Comments: Appears to be an update of the version posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130202). The discipline is available for download here (https://sites.google.com/site/dumpbucketdnd/home/martial-abilities).

Soul Eater (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1420.msg12657#msg12657)

Creator: Risada. Tier: --. Skill: Intimidate. Weapons: falchion, greataxe, greatclub, greatsword, scythe. Theme: --. Comments: --

Star Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169100)

Creator: Zaydos. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Steel Aegis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254734&postcount=12)

Creator: TiwazTyrsfist. Tier: --. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: Shields? Theme: Fighting with a shield, sword and board. Comments: --

Steel Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7473262)

Creator: Nero24200. Tier: --. Skill: Balance. Weapons: heavy shields, small shields, shield spikes. Theme: --. Comments: --

Steel Serpent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161258)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: --. Skill: Heal. Weapons: dagger, unarmed strike, kama, kusari-gama, shuriken, short sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Stolid Sphinx (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8838)

Creator: Ziegander/bkdubs123. Tier: --. Skill: Survival. Weapons: unarmed strike, gauntlet, dagger, club, quarterstaff, handaxe, all improvised weapons. Theme: --. Comments: --

Storm Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137838)

Creator: Rithaniel. Tier: --. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: battleaxe, handaxe, kukri, longsword, scimitar, short sword. Theme: --. Comments: --

Striking Eagle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8364949&postcount=2)

Creator: molten_dragon. Tier: --. Skill: Spot. Weapons: shortbow, longbow (and composite versions), crossbows. Theme: Ranged. Comments: --

Stygian Nightmare (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162222)

Creator: Edge. Tier: High. Skill: Autohypnosis. Weapons: bastard sword, greataxe, scythe, sickle, spear, spiked chain. Theme: Paranoia, death. Comments: --

Sublime Tapestry (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1351)

Creator: Garryl. Tier: --. Skill: Martial Study. Weapons: None. Theme: --. Comments: --

Sundered Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137024)

Creator: Golden-Esque. Tier: --. Skill: Disable Device. Weapons: club, handaxe, mace, pick, warhammer. Theme: --. Comments: --

Surreptitious Bandit (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Surreptitious_Bandit_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Foxwarrior. Tier: --. Skill: Move Silently. Weapons: unarmed strike, dagger, punching dagger, spiked gauntlet, sap, dart, light crossbow, shortbow, composite shortbow, hand crossbow, repeating light crossbow. Theme: --. Comments: --

Thrashing Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176501)

Creator: ErrantX. Tier: --. Skill: Acrobatics. Weapons: dagger, kukri, kama, punch dagger (katar), and unarmed strike. Theme: Two-weapon fighting. Comments: In normal 3.5, use Tumble as the discipline skill.

Throne Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235741)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Thunder Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155361)

Creator: DaTedinator. Tier: --. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: All crossbows, firearms and ray weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5867363). Theme: --. Comments: --

True Arrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Twilight Tempest (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18832834/The_Sublime_Marksman_PEACH_(a_simple_ranged_martia l_adept_base_class))

Creator: Crimson_Concerto. Tier: --. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: All firearms. Theme: --. Comments: --

Twin Soul (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=83)

Creator: Prime32. Tier: --. Skill: n/a. Weapons: n/a. Theme: --. Comments: --

Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991)

Creator: The Demented One. Tier: Mid. Skill: Ride. Weapons: lance, longsword, scimitar. Theme: Rider and mount fight together. Comments: Requires mount, obviously.

Unquiet Twilight (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2388.0)

Creator: Ziegander/bkdubs123. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (religion). Weapons: light shields, heavy shields, bite, claw, longsword, short sword, scythe, unarmed strike.. Theme: --. Comments: I learned of Unquiet Twilight as being a discipline created by AOTRScommander from the Wizards forums, but the thread was gone, so I tried to google it and found this instead. AOTRScommander’s discipline has since been found reposted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254734&postcount=12), but it appears that Ziegander’s version is an updated one.

Untamed Essence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112720)

Creator: Vox Clamantis. Tier: Mid. Skill: Spellcraft. Weapons: n/a. Theme: Force damage. Comments: Never take Winged Weapon.

Viper Fang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7780197#post7780197)

Creator: I_Got_This_Name. Tier: --. Skill: --. Weapons: --. Theme: --. Comments: --

Void Messiah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186173)

Creator: Xefas. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (religion). Weapons: unarmed strike, all natural weapon, spiked chain, kusari-gama, armor spike, spiked gauntlet, clawed gauntlet (spiked gauntlet variant that deals slashing damage). Theme: --. Comments: --

Voltic Battler (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1420.msg12667#msg12671)

Creator: Risada. Tier: --. Skill: Knowledge (science). Weapons: unarmed strike, slam, gauntlet. Theme: --. Comments: --

Wandering Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181128)

Creator: playswithfire. Tier: --. Skill: Bluff. Weapons: dagger-fan*, hand crossbow, rapier, sword-fan*, sap. Theme: --. Comments: --

Warrior's Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11494840#post11494840)

Creator: Circle of Life. Tier: Mid. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: longsword, bastard sword, greatsword, hand axe, greataxe. Theme: Incarnum, supernatural. Comments: Can reach High Tier with properly allocated essentia.

Way of the Gear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133462)

Creator: imp_fireball. Tier: --. Skill: Concentration. Weapons: n/a. Theme: Modern combat, Gears of War. Comments: Still has problems that sadly won’t be worked on.

Wild Moon (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Wild_Moon_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))

Creator: Eiji-kun. Tier: --. Skill: Control Shape. Weapons: gauntlets (spiked or normal), all natural weapons, unarmed strikes, whip. Theme: --. Comments: --

Witch Razor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102869)

Creator: pyrefiend. Tier: Untiered. Skill: Spellcraft. Weapons: short sword, dagger, rapier, butterfly sword sai. Theme: Magic, supernatural. Comments: Tier is kinda wonky, the maneuvers are a bit all over the place.

Very much WIP ones:

Crimson Earth (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6325.0)
Edge Country Hurricane (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2334.0)
Equinox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13790731&postcount=24) (Solstice and Revolution upcoming?)
Essence of Gaia (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2535.msg29077#msg29077)
Feral Hunger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13657211&postcount=10)
Frozen Night (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5842.0)
Protean Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13657211&postcount=10)
Restless Bones (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5843.0)
Undying Call (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5844.0)

Further filling in of the spots now marked -- will be pushed to Phase 3, along with marking them all with appropriate Seals.

[Edge]

Seeing both of my Disciplines in that list warms the frozen cockles of my heart.

Also, I praise your efforts in compiling that list at all, Morph. Sweet Zombie Jesus. :smalleek:

[Lix Lorn]

...oh crud I forgot to give Raging Dragon a skill.

[Zaydos]

I'm just happy to see my discipline on there. Even if I'm a little ashamed of it now, it was actually working on that which got me onto these forums even if it ended up abandoned for over a year.

[Pyromancer999]

Oh my sheesh. I swear, it's things like this that make me suspect you're really some kind of superhuman in disguise, Morph. Well done. Well done indeed.

[Eldan]

.... and I think you just beat Age of Warriors as the biggest ToB compilation.

[Lix Lorn]

Oh my sheesh. I swear, it's things like this that make me suspect you're really some kind of superhuman in disguise, Morph. Well done. Well done indeed.
It makes me want to write out the disciplines in my head really fast to make him work more. :smalltongue:

[DracoDei]

.... and I think you just beat Age of Warriors as the biggest ToB compilation.
Well, since he almost certainly used it as one of his major sources, it wouldn't be very complete at all if he didn't.

Note that the wiki for that never became well formatted (and is almost certainly out of date for most changes made to disciplines after its construction). Thus for review direct links would be preferable.

I very much look forward to the eventual tiering of Falling Anvil since most people who looked at it said, at most, "Well, it LOOKS balanced, but I can't tell without playtest."

[Kellus]

I very much look forward to the eventual tiering of Falling Anvil since most people who looked at it said, at most, "Well, it LOOKS balanced, but I can't tell without playtest."

I feel very much the same way about North Wind, and I've gotten pretty much the same response; it's just a part of the rules a lot of people aren't very familiar with.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing the tiering, and I just wanted to say that this is some amazing work you're doing! Kudos for such a massive effort to make homebrew accessible! :smallsmile:

[Ernir]

In this post, I would like to:

Thank you for tiering my long-ass Fighter fix,
Congratulate you on your incredible, ridiculous, energizer bunny-shaming mental stamina,
and give you one bump.

-Ernir

[Noctis Vigil]

Woah. That's a pretty big list'o'tiered-shtuff. Color me impressed.

I was going through the list of stuff tiered on the first page, and got to wondering: is there a complete list of classes and their tiers for official WotC classes posted somewhere on these forums? I couldn't find one, but my Google-fu was never very strong, so I may have just missed it. (I'm not referring to the core classes from PHB, I mean a list of all WotC classes by tier.)

[Midwoka]

I was going through the list of stuff tiered on the first page, and got to wondering: is there a complete list of classes and their tiers for official WotC classes posted somewhere on these forums? I couldn't find one, but my Google-fu was never very strong, so I may have just missed it. (I'm not referring to the core classes from PHB, I mean a list of all WotC classes by tier.)

Morph Bark's first post in this thread links to the description of the tiers, which has most of WotC's base classes included as examples (I noticed that the Incarnum classes weren't there, and neither are any Prestige Classes).

[Techwarrior]

Morph Bark's first post in this thread links to the description of the tiers, which has most of WotC's base classes included as examples (I noticed that the Incarnum classes weren't there, and neither are any Prestige Classes).

PrC's are hard to tier simply because what tier they fall into really depends on what you entered as.
For instance (and I apologize for the horrible example), the Mystic Theurge entered as a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is going to be in T1, maybe high T2 if played poorly. Whereas if you entered as say, a Paladin 8/Bard 4, you'd probably be way down in T4, maybe even T5, no matter how hard you try to optimize that.

[Temotei]

Morph Bark's first post in this thread links to the description of the tiers, which has most of WotC's base classes included as examples (I noticed that the Incarnum classes weren't there, and neither are any Prestige Classes).


PrC's are hard to tier simply because what tier they fall into really depends on what you entered as.
For instance (and I apologize for the horrible example), the Mystic Theurge entered as a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is going to be in T1, maybe high T2 if played poorly. Whereas if you entered as say, a Paladin 8/Bard 4, you'd probably be way down in T4, maybe even T5, no matter how hard you try to optimize that.

Usually, prestige classes are tiered with a +/- system. The best prestige classes are +2 tiers, I think, while the worst are -1 or -2. I forgot.

[Midwoka]

Here's a list with more base classes: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0

And here's a list of Prestige Classes with their +/- system of tiering: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

[Morph Bark]

...oh crud I forgot to give Raging Dragon a skill.

Chop chop, get to it! :smalltongue:

But yeah, I hope this will also show some creators that some things aren't entirely done on their disciplines, parts that would be really easy to fill out.


Oh my sheesh. I swear, it's things like this that make me suspect you're really some kind of superhuman in disguise, Morph. Well done. Well done indeed.

Sorry, I am bound by a non-disclosure agreement. :smallwink:


.... and I think you just beat Age of Warriors as the biggest ToB compilation.

I blew it straight out of the water halfway through with GitP disciplines alone. :smalltongue:

The reason I sped it up a bit and posted it already as Phase 1 was that on the Minmaxboards they are creating a Martial Discipline Compendium (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6265.0), which started last Sunday, when I've had catalogued 158 of those disciplines already in a pretty massive Word file. I gave them a link to my list here when I had posted it up and I had 70 disciplines they didn't have yet!


It makes me want to write out the disciplines in my head really fast to make him work more. :smalltongue:

Go ahead. Be sure to link them here when you're done. :smallwink:


Well, since he almost certainly used it as one of his major sources, it wouldn't be very complete at all if he didn't.

It was a source, but actually a minor one. Over half the ones listed in Age of Warriors were already on the list, but I did scour the entire thread to be sure I got everything. I had used the Martial Compendium (from the WotC forums, reposted on ENWorld, and also in the Age of Warriors as I later found) as well, but only got two handfuls out of that. Most of them were gotten by scouring Homebrew Compendiums, Homebrew Signatures, posters' posting histories and Googling the names that were referenced elsewhere (including disciplines whose links were dead in the Martial Compendium).


Anyway, I look forward to seeing the tiering, and I just wanted to say that this is some amazing work you're doing! Kudos for such a massive effort to make homebrew accessible! :smallsmile:

You're welcome! In related news, how do you feel about the placement of your currently Tiered classes? (Off the top of my head I can only remember the Xenoalchemist and the related omnomnom class with the Gourmand ability that I just realized I forgot the name of.)


In this post, I would like to:

Thank you for tiering my long-ass Fighter fix,
Congratulate you on your incredible, ridiculous, energizer bunny-shaming mental stamina,
and give you one bump.

-Ernir

Awww, shucks! :smallredface: You're welcome!


Here's a list with more base classes: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0

And here's a list of Prestige Classes with their +/- system of tiering: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

I'll be sure to create a section to include some more Tier info and update the link to the Tiers as well to the most recent version on Minmaxboards.

[Temotei]

You're welcome! In related news, how do you feel about the placement of your currently Tiered classes? (Off the top of my head I can only remember the Xenoalchemist and the related omnomnom class with the Gourmand ability that I just realized I forgot the name of.)

The sagittarius was also added in the tier 3 section.

[Xefas]

The reason I sped it up a bit and posted it already as Phase 1 was that on the Minmaxboards they are creating a Martial Discipline Compendium (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6265.0), which started last Sunday, when I've had catalogued 158 of those disciplines already in a pretty massive Word file. I gave them a link to my list here when I had posted it up and I had 70 disciplines they didn't have yet!

They got the description for Infernal Monster all wrong. "Unlock your inner beast"? It should've just been "This Link" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skzDtMI3-aY). :smalltongue:

(Also just wanted to throw out a Thank You to Morph Bark as well, for assembling all the martial disciplines in one place so comprehensively. I'm not sure why something so useful hadn't been around before!)

[Lix Lorn]

Chop chop, get to it! :smalltongue:
You kidding? I did that ten seconds after making the post. The discipline is 'You are a barbarian', the skill is intimidate. xD
I may have to make a random boost or something based on your ranks in it.


Go ahead. Be sure to link them here when you're done. :smallwink:
A CHALLENGE, GOOD SHINIGAMI

[Lord_Gareth]

One of these days I should actually make a discipline instead of just inventing fourteen individual maneuvers (seven for each of my two ToB PrCs)

[toapat]

One of these days I should actually make a discipline instead of just inventing fourteen individual maneuvers (seven for each of my two ToB PrCs)

Lord Garrath's Discipline of Non-commitment

9th level maneuvers:
Courting Strike: Any target you successfully strike with a melee touch attack, that has both a soul and body, must roll a DC 40 Diplomacy save or die instantly.

[Lord_Gareth]

Lord Garrath's Discipline of Non-commitment

9th level maneuvers:
Courting Strike: Any target you successfully strike with a melee touch attack, that has both a soul and body, must roll a DC 40 Diplomacy save or die instantly.

Nah. If I was going to make a discipline, it'd probably be the Transcendent Echo discipline, focusing on sound, altering perceptions and mimicry.

[Techwarrior]

Lord Garrath's Discipline of Non-commitment

9th level maneuvers:
Courting Strike: Any target you successfully strike with a melee touch attack, that has both a soul and body, must roll a DC 40 Diplomacy save or die instantly.

I'm safe. I traded my soul away for a bag of cheetos. :smallcool:

[Waker]

I'm safe. I traded my soul away for a bag of cheetos. :smallcool:

I lost mine in a game of billiards. I also temporarily lost my sense of fashion, but fortunately I got that one back.

[Morph Bark]

I dunno if I'd be safe from that maneuver. Are you safe if you have multiple souls?


(Also just wanted to throw out a Thank You to Morph Bark as well, for assembling all the martial disciplines in one place so comprehensively. I'm not sure why something so useful hadn't been around before!)

You're welcome. :smallsmile:

I was surprised to find so many disciplines not listed yet in any Compendium, yeah! I was rather shocked to find out a few days after putting them all together to see one pop up on the Minmaxboards, so I hastily joined and saved them a lot of work, increasing their list by 63%.


A CHALLENGE, GOOD SHINIGAMI

A CHALLENGE INDEED

I must now also note that when this all started I still had my Kamina-shaded Yachiru avatar up (which I may switch back to again later), who is a shinigami, which means she is a god of sorts.

If that's not a sign I don't know what is.


Nah. If I was going to make a discipline, it'd probably be the Transcendent Echo discipline, focusing on sound, altering perceptions and mimicry.

Listen could use more disciplines, yes. Sonic power, ho!

I myself actually have gotten several discipline ideas from this. You can expect Edge Calibur, Historia Victor, Local Cooling, Qualia Libri, Quantum Control, Xenokey Twist, and the very meta discipline I've affectionately dubbed "ZZ", probably near the end of the universe, the beginning of sanity, the knot in death and around the bend of Drury Lane.


Also, Tierings!


Tier 2
Worldrender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9738622) [Original, Unique, Debuffer, Face, Healer, Magic, Melee]; really wicked class.


High Tier 3
Magister (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139935); partially incomplete, but very much playable.
Nord's Blade (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4779); changes the game mechanics significantly for itself. Real good initiator too, in spite of getting only 3/4 initiator levels.


Tier 3
Duskblade, Psionic (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1457.msg12932#msg12932); slightly better than the normal Duskblade, which was Borderline.
Engineer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114229); frankly, wicked awesome. This class was really well made to be a (primarily) non-magical artificer.
Masque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244664); the creator asked for it to be Tiered earlier and I gave him some suggestions, after which he made some alterations and additions to the class and got some more feedback on it. It was positively improved.
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244099); there are some issues with the Death ki blast, Fast Movement isn’t on the table.
Open Palm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193642); thinking Perform (kata) sound very much like Perform (weapon drill), though the name of the former is fancier.
Rogue, Sublime (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6244.0); while pretty recently posted and still undergoing revisions (I take), it currently pretty clearly falls in Tier 3 and most likely won't get out of it so quickly.


Borderline Tier 3-4
Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276); it doesn't have any real Tier 3 tricks, not much anyway, but with some picks of its class abilities it comes out to be roughly Totemist level, I'd say.
Sniper (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2759.0); the trick shots are really nice and do a lot to improve upon the idea of the Ranger, practically replacing his spellcasting (though note that this isn't specifically a fix). It does really well at ranged combat and decent at some skills, but that's it and that's enough for the Sniper.
Soulknife (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1457.msg12936#msg12936); to be honest, I wasn't entirely sure on where to put this, which is primarily why its here. In many ways it felt like a Tier 4, but in some ways it just felt better than Tier 4 classes. Feedback on this would be appreciated so that it can be put in its appropriate Tier.


Tier 5
Handyman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219124); I briefly thought I should put this under Tier 4, but I was doubtful, primarily because skills are already easily optimized without classes and even more with them, even other classes of Tier 4 easily doing so. "When in doubt, don't do it."


Variable Tier
Destined Hero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248161); it depends highly on Archetype, other than Fated Warrior, up until about level 10 it is Tier 4, with Fated Warrior being Tier 3. After level 10 it gains some abilities that pull up the other Archetypes towards Tier 3 as well. However, due to automatic gain of Leadership at level 6, plus an accompanying ability that allows the Destined Hero to basically transcend death, the Tiering of the class is thrown a little out of whack, primarily due to the strength of the Leadership feat, but Jarian is undoubtedly aware of this.


(I totally didn't take a break after all, I guess.)

[Jarian]

Objection, the strength of Leadership comes from the cohort, not the slightly-better-than-commoners low level NPCs you attract. The Destined Hero does not gain a cohort.

[Morph Bark]

Objection, the strength of Leadership comes from the cohort, not the slightly-better-than-commoners low level NPCs you attract. The Destined Hero does not gain a cohort.

Though the cohort does bestow the greatest boon as part of Leadership, the followers are far from background-material-only. Leadership does not impose any limits on classes, so even without the cohort it can mean anything from practically unlimited uses of every level 1-3 spell/power/mystery/equivalent, masterwork and mundane items for 1/3 price and magic ones up to CL 8th at half price, an army that can slay gods, knowledge about everything relevant to the plot or ways to easily get it, commoner railguns, and so on. While I'd certainly disregard the last example, the others are all perfectly possible with a DM allowing any official class to be taken as a follower.

Taking that all away for a moment however, there is still the other part of the ability, which essentially allows the Destined Hero to come back to life for free 1d4 days after his death with no level loss at all. This ability is basically saying "even if I don't win the battle, I will win the war anyway, anyhow, always". It's a wicked good ability and certainly a very nice one that fits the flavour, but it's also very strong, an immortality trick better than most immortality tricks concocted by Tier 1s and 2s, further emboldened by the fact it isn't even actually a trick at all.

I like the ability and the overall class itself, but a DM hosting a game over level 5 should be aware of everything that follows from this ability as it is somewhat of a gamechanger.

[Pyromancer999]

I myself actually have gotten several discipline ideas from this. You can expect Edge Calibur,


Sounds cool



Historia Victor,


SWEAR TO G IF THIS IS WHAT I THINK IT IS THERE WILL BE CLASSY FEAT SUPPORT AND SYNERGY.



Qualia Libri

AND MAYBE FOR THIS ONE TOO. THE CAPS LOCK WON'T TURN OFF.

[Veklim]

Tier 3 for my Open Palm eh?! Oddly enough, that's what I was aiming for, glad you agree! :smallbiggrin:

I'd never seen Perform (weapon drill) until a fair while after my first draft of the Open Palm, I was similarly amused at the correlations!

[Jarian]

Leadership does not impose any limits on classes[...]

Yeah, well, it does now, so there!


Taking that all away for a moment however, there is still the other part of the ability, which essentially allows the Destined Hero to come back to life for free 1d4 days after his death with no level loss at all. This ability is basically saying "even if I don't win the battle, I will win the war anyway, anyhow, always". It's a wicked good ability and certainly a very nice one that fits the flavour, but it's also very strong, an immortality trick better than most immortality tricks concocted by Tier 1s and 2s, further emboldened by the fact it isn't even actually a trick at all.

Yeah, I rather think that's the defining feature of the class. I'd rather see a note about it not being appropriate for certain games where the PCs are supposed to be good boys and stay dead, as opposed to being slapped in the variable tier category. Because, being totally honest, that feels like the 'oh... probably won't be playing that' tier, which is unfortunate.

[lunar2]

Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244099); there are some issues with the Death ki blast, Fast Movement isn’t on the table.

I will add fast movement to the table. what are the issues with the death ki blast? too strong, or too weak? Whatever the case, I suppose that I should include a clause that creaturers that are immune to criticals are immune to the death effect, and tag it as a death effect. and thanks for tiering it!

[Lix Lorn]

Nah. If I was going to make a discipline, it'd probably be the Transcendent Echo discipline, focusing on sound, altering perceptions and mimicry.
MAKE IT.
DO IT FILLY.

Worldrender at T2 sounds right. I need to make more rends for that sometime...

[Morph Bark]

Sounds cool

SWEAR TO G IF THIS IS WHAT I THINK IT IS THERE WILL BE CLASSY FEAT SUPPORT AND SYNERGY.

AND MAYBE FOR THIS ONE TOO. THE CAPS LOCK WON'T TURN OFF.

YOU DO THAT, MAH BOY. YOU DO THAT.


Yeah, well, it does now, so there!

Oh you!


Yeah, I rather think that's the defining feature of the class. I'd rather see a note about it not being appropriate for certain games where the PCs are supposed to be good boys and stay dead, as opposed to being slapped in the variable tier category. Because, being totally honest, that feels like the 'oh... probably won't be playing that' tier, which is unfortunate.

Hm, understandable, I suppose. Aside from Leadership + gamechanger I could see it mainly being Tier 3-4 as stated earlier. After going over the Nord's Blade though, I considered adding the "Gamechanger" Tag, which would denote a class which alters at least one aspect of the game significantly for the PC, which the DM should take note of. I could simply add that Tag in and slap it on the Destined Hero and put it safely within bounds of Borderline.


I will add fast movement to the table. what are the issues with the death ki blast? too strong, or too weak? Whatever the case, I suppose that I should include a clause that creaturers that are immune to criticals are immune to the death effect, and tag it as a death effect. and thanks for tiering it!

The Death ki blast's main issue was the multiplier, I think. The ability was a bit vaguely written to me overall, to be honest, though the other abilities were pretty clear. The class could also use some bolding/italicizing of ability name headers to make the presentation even cleaner. (So "Ki blast" would be bolded and the sub-parts, "Renzoku", "Death", etc, would be italicized, for instance.) It's not necessary, of course, but it makes it easier to find an ability and thus read over.

[Jarian]

I've been thinking... there are already a lot of classes here, but as much as I respect and generally agree with Morph's assessment of their tiers, a bunch of it remains completely untested in actual combat scenarios. If, hypothetically, someone were to volunteer to run a mostly-almost-just-about-completely combat/'encounter' playtest, would there be any interest in that? I think I'd limit people to playing classes within 1 tier of each other (.5 tiers count as either one), and not playing their own classes to avoid authorial bias. Hypothetically, of course.

[lunar2]

alright, thanks for the input, Morph. it's supposed to be 3x the normal damage (roll normal damage, then multiply by 3, or roll damage 3 times, it doesn't matter which), with the damage type and critical changing based on whether you pick the disc or the ray. i thought i worded it clearly enough, but i guess not. can you think of a better wording?

[Kellus]

In related news, how do you feel about the placement of your currently Tiered classes? (Off the top of my head I can only remember the Xenoalchemist and the related omnomnom class with the Gourmand ability that I just realized I forgot the name of.)

I'm pretty comfortable with them. I'm not entirely sure about the distinction between the xenoalchemist being high tier 3 vs the connoisseur being vanilla tier 3 based on being able to install grafts on other people, since the connoisseur has a ton more personal power compared the xenoalchemist, who's pretty much purely a support class. But I was certainly aiming for that kind of power level for them. The sagittarius was also an attempt to make a fun and playable archer that can compete at higher levels, and I definitely agree with the tier 3 rank there as well.

If you don't mind, I have a few more classes which could use your stern and disapproving gaze:

The Heretic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75181)
The Spy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89385)
The Timethief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62071)
The Pirate of Monkey Island™ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3935201) (on a lighter note)

[Temotei]

YOU DO THAT, MAH BOY. YOU DO THAT.

Say it again! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOYbRSsdI7o)

[Techwarrior]

I've been thinking... there are already a lot of classes here, but as much as I respect and generally agree with Morph's assessment of their tiers, a bunch of it remains completely untested in actual combat scenarios. If, hypothetically, someone were to volunteer to run a mostly-almost-just-about-completely combat/'encounter' playtest, would there be any interest in that? I think I'd limit people to playing classes within 1 tier of each other (.5 tiers count as either one), and not playing their own classes to avoid authorial bias. Hypothetically, of course.

I'd be down for that. I need to work on my Optimize Fu anyway.

[Zaydos]

I've been thinking... there are already a lot of classes here, but as much as I respect and generally agree with Morph's assessment of their tiers, a bunch of it remains completely untested in actual combat scenarios. If, hypothetically, someone were to volunteer to run a mostly-almost-just-about-completely combat/'encounter' playtest, would there be any interest in that? I think I'd limit people to playing classes within 1 tier of each other (.5 tiers count as either one), and not playing their own classes to avoid authorial bias. Hypothetically, of course.

Too bad it's only hypothetically, otherwise I'd be interested :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

I've been thinking... there are already a lot of classes here, but as much as I respect and generally agree with Morph's assessment of their tiers, a bunch of it remains completely untested in actual combat scenarios. If, hypothetically, someone were to volunteer to run a mostly-almost-just-about-completely combat/'encounter' playtest, would there be any interest in that? I think I'd limit people to playing classes within 1 tier of each other (.5 tiers count as either one), and not playing their own classes to avoid authorial bias. Hypothetically, of course.

Isn't a tier also about how a class can affect a game world outside of combat?

[Zaydos]

Tiers are about how you handle encounters; combat and otherwise. If they were only about non-combat they wouldn't matter nearly as much. Actually the original tiers lists notes that in a primarily social game they don't matter nearly as much (though that's probably because you're more likely to resolve things through RP instead of use Diplomacy in such a game).

[Lord_Gareth]

Tiers are about how you handle encounters; combat and otherwise. If they were only about non-combat they wouldn't matter nearly as much. Actually the original tiers lists notes that in a primarily social game they don't matter nearly as much (though that's probably because you're more likely to resolve things through RP instead of use Diplomacy in such a game).

I did say "also about" non-combat. Also.

[Zaydos]

I did say "also about" non-combat. Also.

Oh sorry, missed that word. Yeah, non-combat does factor in and ways to win combat without actually fighting.

[Jarian]

Isn't a tier also about how a class can affect a game world outside of combat?

Yes, which is why I threw the 'encounter' bit in there. Traps, social situations, et cetera would be thrown in if the chosen classes revolved around them to any great degree. However, I'm offering a combat playtest first and foremost, not a campaign that happens to feature homebrew. That probably doesn't appeal to everyone, so you're perfectly free not to express interest in such.

[Madara]

I actually got one of those started here...


Trust me, just run through encounters. Don't make it an actual campaign. Encounters will work better.

[Eldan]

How about we in this thread get together and make an "obstacle course"? Like, a set of five to ten encounters each for a few different benchmark levels (1-5-10-15?) so people can run their creation through it? Something like:

-Social Situation
-Stealth Situation
-Trap
-Straightforward solo combat
-Straightforward group combat
-Trick Monster
-Overland travel

I mean, half the playground's famous homebrewers are in here anyway.

[Madara]

How about we in this thread get together and make an "obstacle course"? Like, a set of five to ten encounters each for a few different benchmark levels (1-5-10-15?) so people can run their creation through it? Something like:

-Social Situation
-Stealth Situation
-Trap
-Straightforward solo combat
-Straightforward group combat
-Trick Monster
-Overland travel

I mean, half the playground's famous homebrewers are in here anyway.

We should probably make a seperate thread for this. But it could certainly work if we divided up the work among many.

[Lix Lorn]

I mean, half the playground's famous homebrewers are in here anyway.
See, that makes me want to do a genuine campaign.
Playground's greatest hits!
We could sell tickets.

Edit: Wait, am I a famous homebrewer? I have no idea.

[ErrantX]

Having returned to the Playground recently, I want to say Thank You to Morph Bark for including my Ebon Initiate base class in this compendium :)

Anything else I have is fair game, though I'm going to repost a major overhaul on my Traveler class so I wouldn't even consider that one right now.

-X

[DracoDei]

See, that makes me want to do a genuine campaign.
Playground's greatest hits!
We could sell tickets.

Edit: Wait, am I a famous homebrewer? I have no idea.
Well, we already have a playtest game that is going good so far (crosses claws). Another would be good though (with different players and different homebrews).

[Eldan]

We should probably make a seperate thread for this. But it could certainly work if we divided up the work among many.

As you wish. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13623200#post13623200)

[Road_Runner]

Hey Morph Bark, I was wondering if you could look at my homebrew class the Life Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13482362#post13482362). It's my attempt at creating a healing based invocation user that can also support allies by summoning spirit wisps. I would really appreciate it!

[Morph Bark]

alright, thanks for the input, Morph. it's supposed to be 3x the normal damage (roll normal damage, then multiply by 3, or roll damage 3 times, it doesn't matter which), with the damage type and critical changing based on whether you pick the disc or the ray. i thought i worded it clearly enough, but i guess not. can you think of a better wording?

Not right now, but if I think of a better wording you'll hear of me.


I'm pretty comfortable with them. I'm not entirely sure about the distinction between the xenoalchemist being high tier 3 vs the connoisseur being vanilla tier 3 based on being able to install grafts on other people, since the connoisseur has a ton more personal power compared the xenoalchemist, who's pretty much purely a support class. But I was certainly aiming for that kind of power level for them. The sagittarius was also an attempt to make a fun and playable archer that can compete at higher levels, and I definitely agree with the tier 3 rank there as well.

I mainly felt the Xenoalchemist to be higher in Tier than the Connoisseur based mainly on a party set-up, in which the Xenoalchemist would be an immense aid and provide great boosts in personal power to all the other members, whereas the Connoisseur certainly is more possessive of personal power. Perhaps the Xenoalchemist could use the Buffer Tag for this reason, since Buffers are much less powerful and useful if they have a small party or go solo.

I'm glad you agree on the Tiering for them and the Sagittarius. :smallsmile:


As you wish. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13623200#post13623200)

That sound you're hearing is definitely not the noise of me chopping some onions.


I also just Tiered the Invisible Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13605675), which I'd like to see this in a Gestalt with Malefactor sometime, and I'll add the Tiering Obstacle Course as a link to the first page once it's solidified.

[Noctis Vigil]

Here's a list with more base classes: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0

And here's a list of Prestige Classes with their +/- system of tiering: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

Ah, much appreciated! Thank you!


Tier 5
Handyman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219124); I briefly thought I should put this under Tier 4, but I was doubtful, primarily because skills are already easily optimized without classes and even more with them, even other classes of Tier 4 easily doing so. "When in doubt, don't do it."

Objection! :smalltongue:

With all due respect, I believe he is flexible and powerful enough to warrant T4. He gets full proficiencies with every weapon and armor in the game. He has the most powerful skills (Iaijutsu Focus will give him bonus damage, UMD will give him magic, UPD will give him psionics). Just a quick look at him at a few levels: (Note: spoilered due to Wall'O'Text™):

Level 1: Kinda sad. Gets +2 to all skill checks he has ranks in, gets a bonus Skill Focus feat; he'll only be a little good here based off your skill choices. Still, he has good saves, so he'll resist/avoid a lot of low level challenges like early poisons and spells.

Level 3: Still a little sad. Gets +6 to all skills, which makes him a good choice for party face or item user with some focus in Cha, or a good combat option with some focus on Str or Dex.

Level 6: A good choice for general battlefield mobility now, with a +12 bonus to Jump, Tumble, Iaijutsu Focus, UMD and UPD, as well as now having Evasion. Max ranks in a skill now lands him a bonus of +21 before applying a stat modifier, making him the best choice for any task he's focused the skills in.

Level 10: He could talk his way out of most situations at this point with a Diplomacy focus, as it's quite believable that he could have a Cha focus, max Diplomacy ranks, and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) now, easily giving him a Diplomacy skill of +40 or higher; this is enough to make pretty much anything at least look at you objectively, if not make them friendly towards you. Further, with max ranks in UMD or UPD, he can use pretty much any magic item in the world even on a roll of 1 now, and with max ranks in Iaijustsu focus you're always doing at least +8d6 damage on each hit (provided you have Quick Draw). Further, you now have your +20 bonus to EVERY skill, regardless of whether you have ranks in it or not; this makes you better at skills untrained than someone with max ranks for your level, thus making him better at knowing things than a Bard, better at being sneaky than a Rogue, makes him the best craftsman in the multiverse, as good a caster/psion as any full caster or manifester with a little investment in items, and able to do any profession effortlessly if he gets short on cash buying said items.

Level 16: If you're failing skill checks at this point, you're doing it wrong. By this point you no longer need any tools for skill checks, you're proficient with every weapon and armor (and can cast in said armor thanks to a UMD skill of OMGWTFBBQ ranks). Further, you can make people almost as good at skills as you by telling them what to do. Have a means of exchanging written correspondence quickly at long range? Then you perpetually have an untyped bonus equal to the party Handyman's class level on all skills. At this point the Handyman is rarely in fights, with his Diplomacy skill maxed out at a +51 plus his Cha mod (+3 if he has Skill Focus). He can forge most anything, climb most any surface, practically has a swim speed, knows the value of any item he finds, can run on a tightrope, steal anything not bolted down (and most things that are), bluff his way out of most any sticky situation, know intimate details about the lives of every monster he sees, craft anything, do any job, outperform a Bard, jump ravines, tumble around the battlefield doing damage as well as any Rogue, and use any magic or psionic item.

Level 20: Assuming maximum ranks in any particular skill, he'll be getting an automatic 20 on one skill every 10 rounds at this point, meaning once a minute he'll have an automatic roll of 83 on skill check for that skill, more if he has an ability modifier and Skill Focus. Further, if he has a spell or ability that heals his fatigue or makes him immune to fatigue, he'll be doing this every round. Any boss is now his helpful friend with Diplomacy, any surface is able to be walked on with balance or scaled with climb, any item can be made masterwork with craft, any wound can be mended in an hour or two with heal, he can grant himself temporary HP and secondary Will or poison saves at will with autohypnosis, he basically can't be hit while moving or hit below zero HP thanks to tumble, is basically undetectable thanks to Hide In Plain Sight, as well as the hide, move silently and disguise skills, can use or disable any device as a move action (whether magical or nonmagical), can tell any lie or determine someone's alignment with sense motive, can basically cast identify at will via spellcraft, can see/hear through invisibility and illusions, use suggestion at will via Bluff, can speak any language, can train any animal in a day (a month at most for more unusual beasts), and can survive in the wilderness with a group indefinitely; all of this without bothering to roll skill checks. In short, he can out-fight a Fighter, out-smart and out-perform a Bard, out-sneak a Rogue, out-track a Ranger, handle animals better than a Druid, and out-dodge a Monk.

TL;DR: he's better than a Samurai.

[toapat]

I mourn the death of gods, for we shall never know the glorious power of the God of Meta, He who could code a perfect program, able to present us any homebrew, tell us perfectly all exploits, and tier our works flawlessly.

Worship Morphbark, so we may raise her to this status

[Pyromancer999]

I mourn the death of gods, for we shall never know the glorious power of the God of Meta, He who could code a perfect program, able to present us any homebrew, tell us perfectly all exploits, and tier our works flawlessly.

Worship Morphbark, so we may raise her to this status

Slightly confusing statement. Still, Morph's stuff should be more widely talked about/spread about. Morph makes good homebrew(homebrews? Hombrewses? Homebrewi? Whatever the plural of homebrew is).

[Noctis Vigil]

The plural of homebrew is homebri. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, homebrew in general needs more publicity (though the good stuff like Morph Bark's deserves special attention :smallsmile:). Even my gamer friends have no idea about it when I bring it up. You'd think in a player-based community like TRPGs have more people would know about this stuff.

[Xefas]

"Homebrewskies", obviously.

Also, would hypothetical Epic Disciplines (as outlined by the The Demented One) also be compiled here? No specific reason I ask.

[Temotei]

"Homebrewskies", obviously.

It's true.

[Morph Bark]

Objection! :smalltongue:

With all due respect, I believe he is flexible and powerful enough to warrant T4. He gets full proficiencies with every weapon and armor in the game. He has the most powerful skills (Iaijutsu Focus will give him bonus damage, UMD will give him magic, UPD will give him psionics).

TL;DR: he's better than a Samurai.

Thing is, everyone can do that with a little optimization of skills, feats and WBL (otherwise a Truenamer would never be viable, and it can be, it just takes tons of damage work). The fact that he can do it better by such a large margin (mainly meaning he can pull things off with less error at earlier levels) meant I did indeed doubt if I should place it in Tier 4, but in the end the only reason I should was UMD, and that still requires smart usage of WBL. Since my usual policy is "when in doubt, take the safer Tier", which usually means the one further away from Tier 3. Looking over your points of analysis over those levels, I'd say the class is pretty bad at early levels and not all that great at higher levels, but shines at the mid levels. Tell ya what, I'll put it in Tier 4, since it's still fair enough to it, and you help people set up the Tiering Obstacle Course (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250759) and get someone to run the Handyman through it. :smallwink:

Also, I'd just like to point out that the Samurai is Tier 6, so even at Tier 5 it'd be higher than it. :smalltongue:


I mourn the death of gods, for we shall never know the glorious power of the God of Meta, He who could code a perfect program, able to present us any homebrew, tell us perfectly all exploits, and tier our works flawlessly.

Worship Morphbark, so we may raise her to this status

Oh my. :smallredface:


...wait, does that make me some kind of Haruhi? I guess some people would be more okay with me than her, considering the anime discussion earlier.


Slightly confusing statement. Still, Morph's stuff should be more widely talked about/spread about. Morph makes good homebrew(homebrews? Hombrewses? Homebrewi? Whatever the plural of homebrew is).

The plural of homebrew is homebri. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, homebrew in general needs more publicity (though the good stuff like Morph Bark's deserves special attention :smallsmile:). Even my gamer friends have no idea about it when I bring it up. You'd think in a player-based community like TRPGs have more people would know about this stuff.

Heh, thanks. I do still have those disciplines coming up (actually two more than the ones I named, but they are even more WIP), plus a class.


"Homebrewskies", obviously.

Also, would hypothetical Epic Disciplines (as outlined by the The Demented One) also be compiled here? No specific reason I ask.

Possibly, if I add an Epic section at some point. At least then I could file the two of mine I got somewhere under that section.

You sly rabbit. :smalltongue:

Also, someone totally needs to make an Epic Discipline based off Bayonetta. Even though I've never played that game, because I don't have the necessary console.

[Sgt. Cookie]

You have neither an Xbox 360 or a PS3?

I think someone made a base class of Bayonetta. I need to look.

[Lappy9001]

Tier 3
Engineer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114229); frankly, wicked awesome. This class was really well made to be a (primarily) non-magical artificer.Woo! Thank you for looking at it. I'm glad you liked it...and glad I hit my mark on the Tier List :smallcool:

[Morph Bark]

You have neither an Xbox 360 or a PS3?

I think someone made a base class of Bayonetta. I need to look.

Nope, I do not. My brother owns a 360, but nobody else is allowed to play on it, even though he only plays NBA Basketball on it. We do have an American Wii! ...which means I can't even buy European games for it due to region lock. Basically, the only kind of games I can reliable play are computer games bought on Steam (and only during sales, due to money constraints on my part) and some DS games I got as gifts for birthdays or Christmas (but it's been nearly a year since I got a new one, last one was Pokemon Black).

I'd very much like to see that Bayonetta class!


Countdown: T - 50.

[Pyromancer999]

Nope, I do not. My brother owns a 360, but nobody else is allowed to play on it, even though he only plays NBA Basketball on it. We do have an American Wii! ...which means I can't even buy European games for it due to region lock. Basically, the only kind of games I can reliable play are computer games bought on Steam (and only during sales, due to money constraints on my part) and some DS games I got as gifts for birthdays or Christmas (but it's been nearly a year since I got a new one, last one was Pokemon Black).

I'd very much like to see that Bayonetta class!

Wow. Seems like everyone plays more video games than I do. What's Bayonetta?



Countdown: T - 50.

Is this a code? :smallbiggrin:

Also, with the class finally complete, I was wondering if I could get the Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250268) re-tiered, just for general purposes and curiosity about how much power the perks add.

[Temotei]

Is this a code? :smallbiggrin:

T minus a number is the amount of time remaining until the event occurs. There's no unit with the 50, so we can only guess how long it'll be. Hopefully not 50 centuries.

[Xefas]

Wow. Seems like everyone plays more video games than I do. What's Bayonetta?

It's a third person action game (depending on your choice of genre terms, I've heard it referred to as a "Spectacle Fighter" - in the style of God of War, Devil May Cry, Darksiders, and Dante's Inferno). You play a shapeshifting badass sex goddess who murders people in really entertaining ways. It's unabashedly gonzo in style, and is quite liberal (but highly tongue-in-cheek) with its fanservice.

If you like breasts and disemboweling angels with giant demons made of your own hair, then it's absolutely for you.

This link should tell you more, if you're interested. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bayonetta)

[Pyromancer999]

It's a third person action game (depending on your choice of genre terms, I've heard it referred to as a "Spectacle Fighter" - in the style of God of War, Devil May Cry, Darksiders, and Dante's Inferno). You play a shapeshifting badass sex goddess who murders people in really entertaining ways. It's unabashedly gonzo in style, and is quite liberal (but highly tongue-in-cheek) with its fanservice.

If you like breasts and disemboweling angels with giant demons made of your own hair, then it's absolutely for you.

This link should tell you more, if you're interested. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bayonetta)

Link didn't work, but I have googled it, just didn't get the concept entirely.

[DracoDei]

T minus a number is the amount of time remaining until the event occurs. There's no unit with the 50, so we can only guess how long it'll be. Hopefully not 50 centuries.
I assumed it was "50 disciplines". There are 102 he is going to be looking at total I believe.

[Morph Bark]

T - 0.

As presented by what appears to be my spirit.

"It should be clear to everyone that this is not because I like this guy and his material or anything, I just happen to think that some of it is okay! Got that (http://i49.tinypic.com/352kn68.gif)?! G-good then! Alright, ikimasu! Let's go!


So, Lord_Gareth. We've practically been neighbours for years, but it wasn't until he posted a prestige class of his -- the Infernomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170945) -- that we actually conversed for the first time and ignited the beginnings of this relationship.

...friends, you dolt! Homebrew buddies! Heck, we had both brewn stuff before then! He had a foursome of elemental elves as races, a handful of prestige classes, the Harrowed--oh god, the Harrowed--and a monster, plus a campaign setting in the works and he had hosted two Base Class Challenges by that time, too. He even had a homebrew deposit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78903) for himself for a while! He forgot about that, it seems! Baka! Idiot!

The newer version of it is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155470), which I never really looked at, but looking back now... I am stunned that he never finished the Terramancer, Levinmancer and Frigimancer! Tsss! What a lazy bum he is! I don't know what I see in him.

Talking about the Base Class Challenge, the ass not a pony didn't even properly do the third one right! He ran off just so he didn't have to put up with the hassle of a voting thread! Heck, even the guy who did ran off, making me the only one never officially proclaimed as a victor until BCC XII! Well, unless you count Temotei listing it in the new chat thread, bless his heart. I mean, seriously.

Hrmmm... well, one thing can be said for sure about this shaggy-haired redhead demon-possessed brony 'brewer, he sure has a colourful personality. And he knows how to work his colours too, because DA-YUM, DEM WHEELS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174163). I first discovered the Colour Wheel in its first incarnation by just browsing around, responded on the second and gaze Gareth a water torture as I interrogated him on the changes. Well, not really... actually, my lawyer's telling me that I probably should continue with the real stuff. It's an interesting system and feels much better than the old system that was so blocky, whereas this one is round and many-layered, making it a firm system.

...what are you drooling for?!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2q8o9zm.jpg

Wipe that stupid look off your face! And sit still! I'm telling a story here!

Okay, where was I? Hmmm... oh yeah, let's talk a bit about his early work. Like his Kustom Job (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100667) feats. I mean, sheesh, really? A Warhammer fanboy? Icky! Let's move on before the one-week smell buys itself a sentience upgrade with that heap of disposable income!

The Lightningblade feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56622) are meant to go with fluff and PrCs and stuff for a monastary, but those never came. The feats are very nifty and balanced to themselves, but they have very hefty prerequisites, feats that likely very few people will ever take, ultimately making them fit mainly for low-op games.

So hm, what's more? Gareth's made a ton of races, but I only paid attention to handful of them, despite loving races a lot most of the time, races are my bitches and not my bishies as people claim, dammit! Well, I mainly kept up with his races for his Dreavarr setting, which are grouped together, so I'll just cover those. The Halflings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202752) are greasemonkeys in the fluff, as well as thieves and all that, fitting right into lower class New York from the '30s. Gnolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240239) fall into the boat right next to it, similar societal roles, but go into the military often too. They're the tough guys and the luggers. No Str bonus and Powerful Build, you say? Yeah, I did that too, it's unusual, but not forbidden, so shut up! The fluff for Half-Orcs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202575) suggests that the there no longer are pureblooded orcs, that they fall into the same boat as gnolls, but more thuggish often, and they're wiser than their ordinary DnD counterparts. Hm, I'm starting to see a pattern here in societal roles... The Elves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202472) are the tinkerers and real engineering greasemonkeys, way different from standard elves, mainly because they've given up on the whole "protect nature" gig, since it was inevitable that the world turned to shyte, mechanical shyte all over, the huff and puff of factories, all that jazz. Curiously enough, it would seem the elves are more middle class than the previous three races, or even a small step up from that sometimes, despite them fighting against the whole progress in the past. Dwarves and gnomes are hinted to be big in the world, so presumably they are the middle and upper classes (and humans of course), but I guess Dreavarr games mainly focus on the lower classes and struggling in society. Geargrinders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240815) fit right into that, except less so being the strugglers and moreso a symbol of the struggle itself to other races, as they are a sign that workers can be replaced by machines. They come in various production styles and roles, being quicker and stronger than the other, true-living races, but fragile and easily damaged, something mobs of angry workers take advantage of if they catch one. I didn't see anything of the Dreavarr setting beyond these races, but this is looking a lot like the breeding grounds of communist revolution or World War II, except for the fact that there hasn't been a World War I to create the slow-burning fire to erupt into a bonfire. Yikes!

Oh, he's also made a bunch of artifacts, but a lot aren't posted on GitP it seems, but those can be found here (http://plothook.net/RPG/showthread.php?t=14778), so I'm guessing Gareth is not only a Lord, but also a Prince of Knives. Hmmm, interesting... never thought he'd be a prince.

He's made over a dozen PrCs, but those aren't really my thing, so I kinda want to skip over those, so I'll just stick to one, though I will note I've seen all the PrCs with "of" in the name when they were posted and they're... well, uh, they're alright I guess. It's not like some of them are pretty awesome or anything...

I see there's three with single-word names, one pretty short: Spook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104607). Oohh, multi-language word! Double oohh, a commoner PrC! *sits down for this one* Wow, the fluff starts off good, murder of a rapist, oh my! It has some really nasty abilities, a few ordinary ones, but they fit well with the theme of the class and together with each other. Brutal. Be good now, kids!"

"Why, because Santa won't give us presents?"

"No, because the Spook will fracken' MUTILATE your ankles and your face!"

"D:"

"Now be quiet and let me finish! This is the final part anyway, the base classes!

My opinions on the Malefactor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202885) has already been stated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13508146&highlight=malefactor#post13508146), and the same goes for the Witch Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198321). That leaves three, the first of which is the Revised Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166653), but that prettymuch got worked into the Malefactor, so eh.

Then there is the Scourge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84158). Half of it is prettymuch ordinary and cribbed from official stuff it seems to me, but hey, it was one of Gareth's early classes, so cut him some slack! He tried! Plus, the Scourgecraft ability and the alchemist and grenadier stuff it has is pretty well done and interesting, though I don't get much what is so specifically scourgey about it, at least over and beyond that of other classes. Well, aside from the favoured enemy stuff, I guess. Fits well enough into Tier 4 or Borderline, I suppose.

Now then, I guess we're getting to the main event now. A class that has been requested to be Tiered several times, some of those times being by Gareth himself, for which he has been smitten...

...smitten as in that I smited him! Like a Paladin does, not like the whole lovey thing! Shut up, or I'll smite you too, and then you won't get to hear the rest of it, or get Tiered yourself! I said SHUT UP!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2q8o9zm.jpg

So yeah, here it is then, the class requested half a dozen times, once even getting a person pissed off at me for not having Tiered it yet, a class in the making since Gareth started homebrewing (I mean, really, how long can a guy work on something like that, I mean, GOD, GEEZ [/hypcrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251075)).

Come one, come all, for it's time for the Tiering of...


The Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148)

Tenebrous Touch is the Harrowed's basic ability that builds over its 20 levels. It's kind of like the Warlock's Eldritch Blast, except it is a melee touch attack and deals energy damage of a kind you pick at level 1, customizing the flavour for the class (and the demon sealed inside) to your character.

Harrowings are the Harrowed's main deal. Well, obviously! And obviously everyone is going to take Hell-Born Flight when they can because it's awesome. Verminous Slither is also good mechnically, but I have one thing to say about it: ewwww! Otherworldly Senses is also damn good, especially with Two-World Eyes and all (see below). Predatory Obfuscation is basically Hide in Plain Sight, except you can get it earlier than other classes and you deal more damage. Damn, Gareth, you and your sense of balance! No, really, it's kinda good though. Love the damage, actually. Fiendish Sweep is a tasty ability that I like and I love how that plays out in my head.

Two-World Eyes is a very nice ability with a great build-up over the levels. Most of the time it may feel very minor or not see much use, but against certain opponents it is perfect. Plus, at-will detect magic and darkvision for a race normally without it is always great to have.

Scent the Occult is a very nice ability, very flavourful and it can be incredibly handy at certain occassions during a campaign, in similar vein as the Nemesis feat (see BoED) does for an Arcane Hunter Ranger, but more expanded, though limited by the range of scent.

Tenebrous Fury is a very nice capstone, making the Harrowed a force to be reckoned with in melee, even if it is only for a number of rounds equal to their Cha modifier.

There's a bunch of feats, and considering there is one specifically for nongood Harrowed, I'm surprised there aren't any for good Harrowed, or especially LG ones, considering that's the opposite of the demon inside them. The feats are very good and strong, so if you prefer low-op games, then they aren't for you, but if you don't and/or hate feat tax and think official feats could use a bump, these are feats you want to take.

Well, I think uh... that that was prettymuch it! Whew, thank god it's over. If I had to talk any more about Gareth I think I'd puke! What a bitch! Not a bishie, dammit, I don't think he's pretty! Really!

God, I think I need to go make a saving throw, because that guy just sickens me! Sayonara! Goodbye!"


This advertisement was brought to you by Pointing Unlimited! For when your finger really needs to be out there!

I will accept any reasonable punishment for my spirit's overuse of baka desu Japanese, its horrendously bad and disguised double entendres and its very cute blushing.

[DracoDei]

What exactly did phase 1 consist of? It looks like there might have been a failure to update in the forum or something. I am probably just missing something.

[Retief]

Any interest in tiering my first homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13637240)? If I built it correctly, it is a Tier 3 skillmonkey martial adept with two homebrew disciplines (one by me, one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10181158#post10181158)). It should be a bit behind the stock martial adepts in straight combat but can make up for that in skills. Feedback would be welcome.

[Pyromancer999]

Glorious ode to Lord_Gareth


Good examination of Gareth's work. Also nice to see a tier break-down of the Harrowed. It's a cool thing, plus it's an especially cool thing for a special guy.

I wanna be special too. T.T

[GuyFawkes]

I'm quite happy and honored to have one of my classes Tiered. I was thinking the Exarch was at High Tier 3, but I guess 2 really is more appropriate.

If you have time, perhaps the others (there're just 2) could be, if not tiered, at least PEACHed by you. Thanks!

[Lord_Gareth]

I found it comedic, Morph, and yet I am saddened; no examination was made of the strengths and flaws of my general style like you did for Oskar, leaving those questions unanswered as to where I need to improve.

[Morph Bark]

I have to say that that is largely because I just typed it up as I went without a clear idea in mind on how to do things (same with Oskar), the only exceptions being "examine [name]'s work" and a general presentation style. Admittedly though, I was trying to do my best with it and yet get it up fast enough to get something in this thread again other than some basic Tiering, as the side-discussion on the Tiering Obstacle Course seems to have drained the life away from here (and now it is on Myth-Weavers I don't know how it is going).

On the other hand, I have to say that for you, analyzing your general style is much harder than with Oskar. This is mainly because Oskar's focus is very clear (his Retoolings), with a handful of other things on the side, whereas you have things all over the place with no coherent theme between them. I can tell you though that you have a very good feel for base classes and I think you do pretty well with PrCs as well (though I find it harder to judge PrCs in general, personally). Your feats are rather lacklustre for their effects based on the levels you could get them at, though some (like the later stages of the Lightningblade feat chain) have good effects, though with too hefty prerequisites. Your Dreavarr races are very nice, though I find it hard to judge them on their fluff, as they all still feel very very similar, though more information on the world might well change that. Your other races mainly seem to lack the same sense of balance and innovation, but your Dreavarr races are more recent, so that's okay. Aside from that you've dabbled in a few other areas of homebrew, to which I just have to say that I'm surprised you haven't created more monsters, as the Sons and Daughters of Silence turned out well and can easily convey a sense of creepiness in a game. The spells are old and it shows, as they appear to have hardly any balance for their level at all.

Overall, it was easy to see that from 2008 'til now your skill at balancing homebrew has increased for certain, as your newer races classes have much better balance and more innovative features, though I can't say much of the other areas, as you haven't created spells or items of any sort since then, at least not having posted them on GitP.


On another note, was there anyone else who had trouble with either my form of presentation or the extent of it, regarding either Lord Gareth's Tiering or T.G. Oskar's?

[Lord_Gareth]

If you happen to be interested in Dreavarr, fear not - more material will be forthcoming. I've often found that races challenge me in the creation, so I'm hammering them out first, but I will drop this teaser - one of the things I'm trying to do with Dreavarr is to make nation more important than race. The idea of 'racial societies' that prevails through D&D has always infuriated me, and I'll be trying my damndest to shatter that trope and leave its broken corpse on the killing grounds.

[Azoth]

If at all possible I would like to have Morph critique/tier my most recent attempt at homebrew, and I am willing to put it through the gauntlet that has also been mentioned to play test the classes that are being ranked.

Link to the class:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251547

[Temotei]

Morph, while you're looking at the chronoshifter anyway, would you mind tiering it? :smalltongue:

For the record, outside of MUHA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251563), I changed fatigued to overcharged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13520749&postcount=1) for the accelerate chronoshift.

[General Patton]

Would it be too much trouble for you to tier the Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536)?

[Morph Bark]

Morph, while you're looking at the chronoshifter anyway, would you mind tiering it? :smalltongue:

For the record, outside of MUHA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251563), I changed fatigued to overcharged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13520749&postcount=1) for the accelerate chronoshift.

Sure. I'll say though that I won't do a feature on it like with the Base Class Challenge, due to being a judge for the MUHA contest and my scorings should not be known except by the other judges.


Would it be too much trouble for you to tier the Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536)?

/checks Ozodrin

/checks Owrtho's EHS

/consider for special feature? Y/N


In the meantime, I'll say that tomorrow will probably be the last day I'll Tier for a while, as I'll be gone for a few days from Monday evening onwards. In the meantime, I've Tiered the Punchmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204494), which totally isn't called the Brawler because I said so and NeoSeraphi did too.

I may retire now. My fingertips hurt from my first unofficial guitar practice yesterday. ;_;

[Temotei]

Sure. I'll say though that I won't do a feature on it like with the Base Class Challenge, due to being a judge for the MUHA contest and my scorings should not be known except by the other judges.

Right on.

Since it's been posted outside of MUHA, it's gone through a few changes:


EDIT: Added in some saving throws on the ultimate chronoshifts, changed rushed chronoshift to allow risk-free uses at 10th and 16th levels (in addition to the riskier version), and made Time Knows No Death easier on the chronoshifter. It also fully heals the target and the stipulation for going lower than 0 hit points was removed, instead making the condition "if the creature would die."

Whether those changes are enough to make any difference, I thought I'd just tell you.

[Morph Bark]

Since it's been posted outside of MUHA, it's gone through a few changes:

Whether those changes are enough to make any difference, I thought I'd just tell you.

It's nice to see those changes put so neatly there. :smallsmile: It certainly makes it easier on me to Tier it, since I can't take the changes into account for the judging of the contest entry.

On that note, I hope to be done with judging soon, before I leave tomorrow eve. I may end up being gone longer than anticipated earlier, mainly due to some personal struggles.

[Pyromancer999]

On that note, I hope to be done with judging soon, before I leave tomorrow eve. I may end up being gone longer than anticipated earlier, mainly due to some personal struggles.

Hmmm...if you're not going to be judging for a while, then I'd like to repeat my request for a re-tiering of the Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250268), and for a tiering of and/or feedback for the Greybeard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251770), a class I posted a short while ago, provided you can manage any or all of that.

Best of luck with the personal struggles.

[Temotei]

It's nice to see those changes put so neatly there. :smallsmile: It certainly makes it easier on me to Tier it, since I can't take the changes into account for the judging of the contest entry.

I like easy like that. :smalltongue:


On that note, I hope to be done with judging soon, before I leave tomorrow eve. I may end up being gone longer than anticipated earlier, mainly due to some personal struggles.

We all love and support you.

[Morph Bark]

I like easy like that. :smalltongue:

We all love and support you.

Thanks, I appreciate all those things very much. :smallsmile:

In the meantime, everyone is free to suggest ideas for special features that I could do once I can get back to Tiering. Homebrewers, projects, wikis, boards, anime, manga, video games, cartoons, series, movies, books, splatbooks, subsystems, etc... (Name something good! Name something specific!)

Also, I've recently started serious work on campaign setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251075). Or rather, converting it to D&D. It's been 7 years in the making. Seriously.

And how's the Tiering Obstacle Course doing anyway?

[Madara]

And how's the Tiering Obstacle Course doing anyway?

Well, a fair number of people vanished on our way over to mythweavers. So we lost a bit of the numbers. But we finished our outline and are making progress on invidivual challenges.

[Eldan]

It seems we currently have only about three, maybe four regular posters left in the challenge. There's stil lsome basic discussion, but the basic work on challenge ideas is being done.

[lunar2]

Special feature request: anime/manga. especially martial arts/fighting series, since they probably have the biggest selection of 'brew.

alternatively: video games (especially since i'm thinking of making a prototype base class).

[Milo v3]

alternatively: video games (especially since i'm thinking of making a prototype base class).

Tainted Scion of Venom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13337259)

[lunar2]

Tainted Scion of Venom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13337259)

Looks cool, but I was going in a slightly different direction with mine.

[Morph Bark]

Whelp, I've largely gotten through some of the personal troubles, or at least sorted them out, so I got somewhat of a clear idea now on what to do next. (I'm thinking I should just romance Fate and solve all my problems that way.)

In the meantime, I'll slowly be getting back to this, but first I will be getting my homebrew back on again as I work to create some stuff for my new campaign setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251075). A while back there was already a skill rework, more of which are forthcoming, but first I'll probably get to races. In a way, it's rather curious how I like to check out base classes and stuff to do with them, but at the same time I prefer 'brewing other things myself.

[Vadskye]

It is my dream that someday, I will come on here and ask for my fixed core classes to be tiered. In this dream, the voice of Morph descends from the void, and pronounces them all the same tier. Someday... someday my dream will be realized.

I just thought you should know. Keep up the good work; you seem to make a lot of people happy. :)

[toapat]

has there been any movement on this recently?

[theUnearther]

@toapat: The fourth and second posts of the thread were edited by the original poster on the 3rd and 4th of august of this year, so sorta?

@Morph Bark: Two things. Number one, you're awesome. But you should know that by now. Number two, both the "Oriental" and "Japan" tags' caveat say "see below". Japan is below, so it should say "see above".

[toapat]

Morphbark, do you remember this exists?

[DracoDei]

Technically I am sure he does, but a poke does seem appropriate at this point.

[Pyromancer999]

Morphbark, do you remember this exists?

As Morph has mentioned before, there's been a bunch of stuff going on, plus Morph wants to focus on homebrew races for a campaign for a little, so this will be on hiatus for a while.

[Morph Bark]

As Morph has mentioned before, there's been a bunch of stuff going on, plus Morph wants to focus on homebrew races for a campaign for a little, so this will be on hiatus for a while.

Prettymuch this, yeah.

I'm still in the process of finding a new job, among other things, but I'll get back to this in due time. I got a Word file saved up on an EHD with a list of to-judgings and judgings, so once I got the time and the mind for it, I'll get on it. :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

T - 60*


*Not the same kind of T as before.

EDIT: Corrected T-time.

[toapat]

T - 75*


*Not the same kind of T as before.

so, the tier for the Paladin God PrCs?

[Morph Bark]

I corrected the T-time earlier, because I made a slight miscalculation. (And yes, from now on, the Ts all will have the same unit of measurement. I dare you to figure it out!) Sadly also half an hour late! DRAT! Anyway, now to get on with the reinvigoration of the HOMEBREW TIER COMPENDIUM!


T - 0!

Enter the Special Homebrewer Feature! Everybody, welcome our new guest: WaylanderX! I promise you he totally didn’t bribe me with a bottle of cider for this!

WaylanderX is relatively new to the Homebrew scene ‘round DnDese parts, but has shown to be quite creative when it comes to the mechanics of classes. This was already evident in his first full-fledged creation, which I helped him dub the Goaler of Frostflame (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246724). The Gaoler of Frostflame is a class which starts off with decent power, but becomes even stronger at the higher levels. The downside of the class is that it has to use its lower-level abilities first, before it can use its higher-level ones. This makes combat at higher levels dangerous for the class, but luckily it has abilities it can use to speed up its magic and use higher-level abilities faster, which are generally very straightforward, but also are intended to be a lot more powerful than abilities of other classes at those same level, effectively paying for this extra power by waiting longer to be able to use them. This makes for some shaky balance when compared to classes with more traditional mechanics, but one cannot deny the originality of the class’ workings.

He recently added a summoning path, which increases its Tier from where I previously put it to Tier 3, though it yet depends on what he is going to put up for his summons, as from what I’ve heard of his ideas the Primal Chain summons are supposed to be Solar-powered. Capital.

Next up: the Spellguide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250627). The Spellguide works by building up ‘stacks’ of layer upon layer of magic on allies and enemies, before using up these stacks to unleash magic effects on them. In a way, this makes its mechanics similar to the Gaoler’s, except it is much more focused on the effects of its stacks and being a support class overall. This makes the class more passive than most classes, but more active than a lot of other support classes, due to the management of the stacks. However, the downside of this is that stack management can be hard to keep track of, at least at first. The balance of the Beacons is questionable, mainly due to the linear progression, which at 4 stacks each can become quite much. I myself find the half-bonuses some Beacons grant needless headaches, but YMMV. The Spellguide’s Flows, which is the name for its version of Invocations, basically, are mostly improvements upon earlier-levels ones once you get to higher levels, making them mostly pretty uninteresting, whereas the unique ones amongst the Storm Flows are crazy powerful and pretty gamebreaking, making the class hard to Tier, though I’m pretty sure it falls outside of Tier 3.

Lastly, there’s the Improviser (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255381). A class that is basically McGyver.

Except this McGyver can fly as if he were Spider-Man. Shut up, Spider-Man can fly!

The gold bag cap remains overall pretty low, which means that someone who could somehow craft shapesand that only works for themselves would be able to out-perform one of the features of this class for a measly 100 gp. Its main feature though, is its Improvisational Skills. These are a few lists of abilities it can cherry pick across its levels to become someone who might be an incarnation of Link, except there’s also crowbars for Morgan Freeman, poisons for your evil Batman-style assassins, and caltrops. One of the Hookshot’s earliest abilities basically allows flight while nearby a sufficiently tall wall, while the Rope path allows ranged grappling while using your Int modifier, allowing for some controlling maneuvers. Hammer Time turns you into Thor, minus lightning (unless you get an appropriate magic weapon, maybe). The martial maneuvers may be the hardest to balance against the other paths, considering it gives something entirely different and a little more as well, with the intention of making it more competitive with other martial adepts, which might be a little out of its style, but it’s limited to a discipline that does quite fit the class. The poison path makes them viable by increasing your gold cap immensely for poisons alone, which is helpful, and it keeps poisons viable for longer by more DC increases, though that may also make them too powerful (sadly, I’m no expert on poisons, but considering how many there are in official sources, I wouldn’t be surprised if this were abuseable). Likewise, he makes caltrops more viable with its path, but one should be wary to not focus too much on this path, as caltrops are highly limited, even though they can get quite a lot better with this path. At higher levels you’ll be encountering more flying foes and caltrops will become practically useless.


EDIT EXTRA: One thing I forgot to mention earlier is the use of improvised weapons. From his personal explanations, I know WaylanderX means for this to only apply to objects that aren't normally weapons (which still can pose a problem for clubs and quarterstaves), but this wasn't entirely clear to me from its actual description, which almost makes it seem like the Improviser is proficient with everything, which is just plain too much, especially when you look at all the awesome exotic weapons. The explanation given is also somewhat weak, because then you get to the point of "if he's proficient with all improvised weapons, why not with a lot of normal weapons, too?"

As a final extra, outside of WaylanderX’ classes, I took a look at his martial discipline: Escalating Chain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251678). The name clearly is derived from the same idea as the Chains of the Gaoler of Frostflame, as it has several maneuvers that can only be used after another maneuver earlier in the encounter, some maneuvers even requiring the use of two maneuvers before it can be initiated. These maneuvers are much more powerful than other maneuvers of their level, similar to the Mid, End and Primal Chains of the Gaoler. This proves to be rather inventive, but due to their wording, if you have ways to gain more actions, you can abuse this discipline and quickly get off the Finishing strikes, thus dealing tons of damage, ultimately making the discipline rather badly balanced.

Ultimately, I can assuredly say that WaylanderX certainly is creative with mechanics*, but really needs to beware that the balance is not endangered. Of course, I’d like to say that he’d better worry about creativity first and balance later, since otherwise you end up nipping great ideas in the bud, but the end result is what counts the most!


*You’re also kind of bad with names, bro. But you already knew that. :P

Next up: Tiering the stuff that was put into these threads (on both GitP and Minmaxboards) first and then do Operation New Tier.

[WaylanderX]

Yo Morph, thx for the reviews ^^. I should be able to do something usefull with them, especially regarding the Spellguide. I'll nerf the Storm flows a bit and see how they turn out. Also, I'll go to work to work out more original Flows ;P.

Anyway, great job and keep up the good work!

Way

[Tavar]

Hey, Morph Bark, just wondering, but are you going to update the explanation of the tags to include the gamechanger tag? I think I know what you're implying, but, well, you know what they say about assuming.

[sengmeng]

My Base Class Challenge entry, the Guardian Angel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14035465#post14035465&postcount=19), is almost completely fine-tuned (feats and ACF's are all that might be added after this point). I'd be surprised if it comes up as higher than tier 4, but I bet you'll find the mechanics and role to be unique.

[Morph Bark]

Hey, Morph Bark, just wondering, but are you going to update the explanation of the tags to include the gamechanger tag? I think I know what you're implying, but, well, you know what they say about assuming.

I will do so soon. I had a wording for the tag floating around here somewhere, too.


My Base Class Challenge entry, the Guardian Angel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14035465#post14035465&postcount=19), is almost completely fine-tuned (feats and ACF's are all that might be added after this point). I'd be surprised if it comes up as higher than tier 4, but I bet you'll find the mechanics and role to be unique.

I'll take a look at it once the contest is over. :smallsmile:

[kanachi]

Hiya Morph if your not to busy could you take a look at my class from the previous contest: The Dimensional Conduit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255782)

Thanks!

[Morph Bark]

I shall. I'll also dig through some other contest classes (after going over classes in the Tier threads that I haven't gone over yet) and make a nice buffet.

I will begin this venture come Monday, as I'll be gone 'til Sunday lead a LARP legion.

[DracoDei]

I shall. I'll also dig through some other contest classes (after going over classes in the Tier threads that I haven't gone over yet) and make a nice buffet.

I will begin this venture come Monday, as I'll be gone 'til Sunday lead a LARP legion.
My "Guardian of Minds" awaits its turn patiently.

The "Grace-Gift" is still undergoing play-test.

[Dralnu]

I've always been curious if my Indigo Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199905) hit the tier that I was aiming for. I'd love your opinion on it.

[bindin garoth]

If you get a chance, Morph Bark, I'd like to see what you (and others) think of my Spell Bound, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252415) and what tier it's in.

[UserShadow7989]

If it's not too much trouble (there seems to be a pretty sizable line as is and I don't want to pile on), could you please take a look at my monk remake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153528)? It's a couple years old but I'm pretty proud of it and hope it hit around the balance point I was going for (I feel that it goes into overkill territory with the damage and number of immunities, but I haven't heard any complaints about it so far).

[Morph Bark]

Tier 1
Scholar (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=279.msg1328#msg1328) (tagsblabla)

High Tier 3
Chronoshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13663397) [Original, Unique, Buffer, Debuffer, Healer, Magic, Expanded] (this is sort of an edge case; it treads the line between High Tier 3 and Tier 2 with a few of its powers, but I believe the price they may come at allow it to take a step back into the comfort zone of more DMs)

Tier 3
Indigo Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199905) [Original, Arcane, Invoker-Unique, Buffer-Self, Face, Magic, Melee, Scout, Trapmonkey]
Spellbound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252415) [Original, Arcane-Unique, Buffer-Self]

Tier 4
Invoker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215793) [Arcane, Invoker, Buffer, Face, Sage, Scout] (this may be YMMV, but in my opinion this Bard variant definitely goes down in the Tiers; it might be Borderline 3-4, but it isn’t 3)

I know Pyromancer asked for a re-Tiering of the Dovahkiin in this thread, but then didn’t see it in the listing at all, so I must’ve forgotten to update it at some point with a few of the classes that I did a list of halfway through (like the one above). I’ll have to dig through the thread when I’m having an active moment of non-laziness to search for it and check it thoroughly. I can’t do it the way I’d normally do it, as the search function isn’t up yet.

The Fix Tiers also have a handful of new additions and the –Self tag has been added below Buffer.

[Garryl]

Morph Bark, can I get some explanation behind the Tier 2 ranking of my Soulknife fix? I expected Tier 3, and I can see high Tier 3, but I don't see the game breaker that's needed to go to Tier 2. Thanks.

Any word on this, Morph Bark?

Also, could you please remove the spoilers around the Fix Classes tiers? It hides them by making them look like a list of tags for the fixes, as it comes right under the heading of Tags, and the first post has a similar format to that post, except having a list of tags in its spoiler instead of classes.

[Korney]

Humbly requesting your tiering wisdom for my very first attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261208) at homebrewing.
Although I am not sure if it qualifies, as I had no clear objetive with the homebrew but to "give a little more power" to the fighter class to keep up with my IRL gaming group.
I guess it enters in the "fix" section of your list.

[The-Mage-King]

Morph, I've got another thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258938) for you to slap a tier onto! :smallbiggrin:


Feel free to review if you have time, and let me know what seems to be the problem if it doesn't fall into the Warblade power area. :smallamused:

[ErrantX]

Hey Morph,

Feel free to tier any of my stuff (I saw my ebon initiate on that list and smiled), but specifically I was wondering if you'd be able to tier my Invincible Iron Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258113) class. While it is written in Pathfinder format, nothing in it would be preclude an easy shift of the skills over to 3.5 to make it a stand alone 3.5 project.

Thanks in advance if you have the time!

-X

[bindin garoth]

Hey Morph Bark,

Just thought I'd leave these classes here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253629) for you.

You know.

In case you wanted to tier them.

Just a thought :smalltongue:

Anyways, from looking at them, I'd put them at tier 3. They have some versatility each, but have no real way of breaking the world.

[Silva Stormrage]

Hello I was wondering if you could look over my slightly revamped Vector Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228402), the Haruspex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213491) and the Soul Devourer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211046)

[Morph Bark]

And here I thought that during my times of trouble and being unable to keep things up at the pace I had before, that this thread would lie forgotten. ;_; Thanks guys. I promise to take a look at some of these classes soon! I will likely not be able to do it at the old pace, but a pace is better than no pace!

[Korney]

Sorry for resurrecting it . :smallfrown:

[Morph Bark]

Are you daft? I'm thankful! :smalltongue:

[Pyromancer999]

[B][SIZE="4"]
I know Pyromancer asked for a re-Tiering of the Dovahkiin in this thread, but then didn’t see it in the listing at all, so I must’ve forgotten to update it at some point with a few of the classes that I did a list of halfway through (like the one above). I’ll have to dig through the thread when I’m having an active moment of non-laziness to search for it and check it thoroughly. I can’t do it the way I’d normally do it, as the search function isn’t up yet.



Hmmm...if you're not going to be judging for a while, then I'd like to repeat my request for a re-tiering of the Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250268), and for a tiering of and/or feedback for the Greybeard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251770), a class I posted a short while ago, provided you can manage any or all of that.


Re-posted for your convenience. :smallsmile:

[kanachi]

And here I thought that during my times of trouble and being unable to keep things up at the pace I had before, that this thread would lie forgotten. ;_; Thanks guys. I promise to take a look at some of these classes soon! I will likely not be able to do it at the old pace, but a pace is better than no pace!

I don't suppose you got my pm about the dimensional conduit morph? I know its a bit of an epic though so dont worry if you are to busy :)

[tarkisflux]

And here I thought that during my times of trouble and being unable to keep things up at the pace I had before, that this thread would lie forgotten. ;_; Thanks guys. I promise to take a look at some of these classes soon! I will likely not be able to do it at the old pace, but a pace is better than no pace!

Silly Morph. We're still here appreciating what you've done and waiting for more. We haven't forgotten this thread (it's one I still look for, even if I don't have anything new to contribute to it most of the time). As you say, a [positive] pace is better than no pace :smallsmile:

[danzibr]

I have a homebrew (my one and only) which I'd like to get added to the list: the flowist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261656).

I think they're low 2 or high 3, but honestly I need some help to judge.

Flavor-wise they're like a monk, but mechanically more like a MoI-Psionics mix... well, more like MoI.

They have decent offense and even better defense.

Thanks in advance!

[sengmeng]

My Base Class Challenge entry, the Guardian Angel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14035465#post14035465&postcount=19), is almost completely fine-tuned (feats and ACF's are all that might be added after this point). I'd be surprised if it comes up as higher than tier 4, but I bet you'll find the mechanics and role to be unique.

Bump. Base Class Challenge is over.

[Morph Bark]

Going slowly over classes at a rate of two per day at the moment. Added, among others, Vector Witch and Dovahkiin. Others are currently being looked at.

[Jormengand]

Ooh, nice. Could you tier the Honour Guard for me, please? (I'm thinking 4?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263787

[Veklim]

Have you got a timeframe for consolodating the lists yet Morph? I think it's page 8 or something, has a fairly big list to it. Just asking... :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

Because I'm not sure how many of these I'd be accidentally necroing, I decided to put these comments here.


I have a homebrew (my one and only) which I'd like to get added to the list: the flowist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261656).

I'd make the failure formula for Flows easier than (100-10*modifier+5*flow spent-5*flowist level)%.

Since flying takes a standard action: I presume can they float in place, just like other creatures with perfect maneuverability?

Gentle Touch:

In addition, she knocks her opponent back 5 feet per 1d6 damage dealt subject to the following constraints: for every size category larger than the flowist, the opponent is knocked back 10 fewer feet, and for every size category smaller than the opponent, the opponent is knocked back an addition 10 feet.

This sounds like saying the same thing twice, but worded differently, ending up with it looking like you mean that if a Flowist is Medium and the opponent is Large or larger, for every size category difference, the target is knocked back 20 feet. I am guessing you meant simply for every size category difference (so that Small and smaller would also get knocked back, but not Medium targets). Is that correct? Overall, it seems a little weird to me. What's the explanation for this? (Fluff- or crunch-wise.)

I like that Path of Mastery gives some class skills based on what Path you pick.

All meditations are available, right?


My Base Class Challenge entry, the Guardian Angel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14035465#post14035465&postcount=19), is almost completely fine-tuned (feats and ACF's are all that might be added after this point). I'd be surprised if it comes up as higher than tier 4, but I bet you'll find the mechanics and role to be unique.

The amount of bonded allies and the changes in saves seem like quite a handful to keep track of, especially when multiclassing. @_@

Actually, the bonded allies plus the summoning prettymuch give it the Truenamer capstone right at level 2. That makes the class an incredible dip, as afterwards they could just take levels in classes with abilities of much higher power and still retain that capstone-like ability. It's pretty huge, so before I go on, I'd like to know if there are much more of such abilities in there? Particularly with huge range.


Humbly requesting your tiering wisdom for my very first attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261208) at homebrewing.
Although I am not sure if it qualifies, as I had no clear objetive with the homebrew but to "give a little more power" to the fighter class to keep up with my IRL gaming group.
I guess it enters in the "fix" section of your list.

By definition adding more stuff to the Fighter makes it better than a normal Fighter, but it does not necessarily up its Tier (which I look for in Fixes, or lowering of its Tier if the official class equivalent's Tier is 1 or 2). I like Stand Strong, but Keep Fighting sounds detrimental, since it kicks in while you may not even be dead yet (between -1 and -9) or you might lose a magic item that is more expensive than the cost to resurrect you.

Shield Ally: do you mean no save, rather than no salvation? No salvation is pretty harsh!

Taunt: kind of vague and uses different rules from the normal Intimidate rules.

Hold the Position: is the +5 to AC instead of, or in addition to to the normal bonus from fighting defensively?

Overall, I don't think it goes up a Tier.* The first seven levels have nothing that really improves the Fighter's abilities other than straight numbers (and while Experienced Fighter does help and is good, straight numbers alone don't do it, and it's very dependant on feat choice). The last ten levels give some options that could be nifty, but need some more working out and better wording. Giving some abilities like those at earlier levels (but lesser versions of the same abilities, or move those abilities to earlier levels and give them upgrades you can choose) would certainly help.

*This is presuming the Fighter to be Tier 4-5. A Fighter can be Tier 4 with the right feat choice, but so can your Fighter for the same reasons. If you pick feats that make a Fighter character Tier 5, the same choices won't improve him to Tier 4 with the abilities you give the class. The ideas you have are good, but they need more working out and improvement. Expand on them a little more to be less basic and you're off in a good direction. :smallsmile:


Morph, I've got another thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258938) for you to slap a tier onto! :smallbiggrin:

Y'know what the weird thing about ToB classes is? I'm always "yeah, ToB! Rock on!" about it, but on the other hand, they usually have so few real class abilities. I like the Kaijin Track and how you can basically go different monstrous ways and I'm hoping you'll expand upon things with more different kinds of Kaijin Abilities to select. That way it'll get fleshed out more like the Sentai, which I like best out of many ToB classes due in large part thanks to it having class abilities aplenty (but not an overwhelming amount, more like there is something at every level).

Inhuman Durability can get ridiculous, like DR 20/- at level 10 easily. Monstrous Roar's Intimidate bonus could easily be doubled with no harm done. Why does Monstrous Grasp require taking twice, while Monstrous Size does not require to be taken multiple times? I'd make Expendable Minions available after level 6, since it's basically like a kind of Leadership.


Hey Morph,

Feel free to tier any of my stuff (I saw my ebon initiate on that list and smiled), but specifically I was wondering if you'd be able to tier my Invincible Iron Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258113) class. While it is written in Pathfinder format, nothing in it would be preclude an easy shift of the skills over to 3.5 to make it a stand alone 3.5 project.

Thanks in advance if you have the time!

-X

Have I added a Pathfinder tag? I think I added a Pathfinder tag. Or at least there is one or two Tiered Pathfinder classes. Either way, the HTC is open to Pathfinder classes!

Hmmm, first thing I notice is that a player will have to compromise: either be good at hitting with the repulsors, or have a lot of modifications on their armor. I mainly think this because the only way to have both is to have a high Dex modifier and an armor with a high armor bonus, but those usually have the lowest max Dex bonuses. Granted, those max Dex bonus limits are only for AC, but it'd mean wasting something you have. Unless there's ways to have both through the armor modifications? Through this class you can also get full plate for free at level 1, which is huge, though great if the party needs someone to take the hits. I have a feeling they'd Gestalt great with Crusader.


Wands may also be installed into the armor with special housings, and when installed, the wand no longer relies on its own charges, and instead draws power from the armor's battery supply.

So 1 Battery = 1 charge? Does this also go for Wondrous Items with charges? How many Wondrous Items can be installed into the item? I'd presume the Wondrous Items turned into such Iron Man armor-specific parts would not take up body slots, otherwise there'd be no real benefit to them.

Ahh, Armor Training, now that helps the first problem I saw. Though it doesn't help much at earlier levels, still.

Bonus Combat Feat: what counts as a Bonus Combat Feat?

Construct Armor: huh, I was first going to say making it an intelligent armor might be easier than making it a Construct. Replacing ability scores makes for easy high stats, making the class easily pretty MAD. One problem there might be is it having Int 0. Wouldn't that mean it couldn't move at all, due to being in a coma? Wouldn't it have to be Int -?

"Any suit of armor that is constructed as part of this class has a base hit point total equal to 5 hit points per Iron Man class level plus his Intelligence modifier for each level." --> Better wording might be "base hit point total equal to (5 + the Iron Man's Intelligence modifier) times his level".

...thanks to Construct Armor I think I now also know how I should make this one PrC I've been thinking about that I wanted to create for the PrC Contest a while back.

Modular Armor only ever applies to one armor, I take it? And the choice cannot be changed?

Extremis Armor: "profoundly" should probably be followed by "changed" or "affected". Also, since armors grant temporary hit points (effectively), which cannot be healed back, how does this interact with healing spells? In fact, since temporary hit points don't stack with one another, that's bad for any Iron Man who wants to get temporary hp from other sources. Perhaps make it into a kind of "buffer hp pool" of sorts instead? It would make it more complicated though, I suppose.

I'll do some commenting on Modifications later, if there is anything worth mentioning.


Hello I was wondering if you could look over my slightly revamped Vector Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228402), the Haruspex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213491) and the Soul Devourer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211046)

Haruspex:
Share Divination, I guess it allows stuff like sharing the "benefits" of a Detect Magic spell so that you can cover an area twice as big (or times as big)?

[I]I knew you were about to do that and You knew he was about to do that are nifty. At first I thought "wait, does this allow basically taking a standard action as an immediate action?" Luckily, that isn't the case, because that would've been way powerful. You can basically ready nearly anything, for as far as I know, so it sounds to me like this is perfect for surprise round stuff or initiating a combat out of an ambush.

Just A Dream. Woah, god, that's the big stuff! I'd argue that this couldn't be used if the Haruspex is dead, but if that would be just a dream, that would be a bad argument. I could say it shouldn't be used then, but a level later and further such big things can become common easily. I'd think that the dream would influence the Haruspex' actions though, or at least his composure and how he speaks. Unless he has perfect emotional control and perfect memory of the dream he would most likely not be able to go through the same day up to a certain point, right? Either way, that's just what I think. It's most likely an ability very much up to DM scrutiny, if they'd even play the game at that level (I mean, below 15 it doesn't come in play, so it should be peachy). Also a good idea to limit it to 1/[period of time greater than a day].

Marked: how does a Haruspex Mark someone? It isn't mentioned if it requires an attack roll, what range it has, whether it requires line of sight or line of effect... As written it seems a Haruspex could go "hm, I want to mark the King of Arushabia" and do it. Only the reference to the Scry spell suggests that it works just like Scrying, but it doesn't outright state that it does.

Perfect Divinations: what divination spells have large XP costs attached to them? Or a casting time greater than 10 minutes? I know there are some that require a casting time of 1 or 10 minutes, which doesn't bother me that much, but I'm curious if there are spells with a far greater casting time. (Epic not included.)

Well of Knowledge seems like it should be (Sp) rather than (Ex), since you say spell resistance applies.

Lastly, and most importantly in fact, you never describe their spellcasting. Are they prepared or spontaneous? I am only presuming they know all spells on their list (if they are spontaneous that is), since there is no "spells known" table, and I know Int is their spellcasting stat since you mention it under "Abilities".


Soul Devourer:
There is a description for Ebon Blade, but no mention of what happens to it at level 20, while it shows on the table at that level.

I like how some invocations have a cooldown. Nitpick: the Dispel Magic Lesser Necromantic Invocation has a [ in front of it. Death's Messenger Least Invocation has a typo (life instead of lift).

I'd bold "Plague Essence Invocations" to stand out more as a header.

Gaze of the Vampire duplicating Charm Monster, isn't that too much at that level? That's the same level as the official Charm Person invocation.


Ooh, nice. Could you tier the Honour Guard for me, please? (I'm thinking 4?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263787

Please bold titles of abilities. Many of them could use more explaining too. The Guard A, B, C, D things in the table suggest to me that you're basically playing a squad of guards, I guess? It's also lacking class skills. Is this meant to be a PC class or an NPC class?


Have you got a timeframe for consolodating the lists yet Morph? I think it's page 8 or something, has a fairly big list to it. Just asking... :smallbiggrin:

Do you mean the lists of ToB disciplines?

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you don't mind... any of my good stuff that you can look at would be wonderful...


The Windrunner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11922343#post11922343)-- all about speed and mobility
The Beastman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213031)-- a wildshape barbarian, basically
Paladin fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12150015#post12150015)
Godspeaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12336470#post12336470)and Miracle Worker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12348960&postcount=2)-- Cleric/Favored Soul replacements
The Barbarian fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227466)from this thread
My Druid fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230514)
My wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12623421&postcount=2)and sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230721)fixes from this thread
The Savage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240943)-- sort of a savage monk, gaining powers from nature
This Fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13847478#post13847478)
The Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13207547)
This ranger/scout mashup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14192508#post14192508)

[Jormengand]

Please bold titles of abilities. Many of them could use more explaining too. The Guard A, B, C, D things in the table suggest to me that you're basically playing a squad of guards, I guess? It's also lacking class skills. Is this meant to be a PC class or an NPC class?

Ah, no. The Guard skill does up to four different things, which are represented by A, B, C, D in the table. It's meant to be a PC class, and if you look at what all the abilities to you'll see why. A buff that grants, in total, +200 hitpoints and +20 AC is nasty. Bonus feats like those of the fighter, less so.

I'll bold the ability titles, of course.

[Tavar]

Are you going to do the Class Building contests, or should we suggest stuff we made there separately?

[The-Mage-King]

Y'know what the weird thing about ToB classes is? I'm always "yeah, ToB! Rock on!" about it, but on the other hand, they usually have so few real class abilities. I like the Kaijin Track and how you can basically go different monstrous ways and I'm hoping you'll expand upon things with more different kinds of Kaijin Abilities to select.

Yeah... I kinda have stalled because of school picking up/lack of ideas. :smallsigh:


That way it'll get fleshed out more like the Sentai, which I like best out of many ToB classes due in large part thanks to it having class abilities aplenty (but not an overwhelming amount, more like there is something at every level).

Given that Kaijin is being built to be a counterpart to the Sentai... Yeah. I'm trying to get it more fleshed out. :smalltongue:


Inhuman Durability can get ridiculous, like DR 20/- at level 10 easily.

Hm. Might need to lower it a bit, then.


Monstrous Roar's Intimidate bonus could easily be doubled with no harm done. Why does Monstrous Grasp require taking twice, while Monstrous Size does not require to be taken multiple times?

Mostly because reach is more powerful than Powerful Build.


I'd make Expendable Minions available after level 6, since it's basically like a kind of Leadership.

Yeah, but the next chance to get it is 8th level. So giving Kaijin the ability to show up with a handful of mooks a level early, or delay it by 2 levels...


'sides. It's a heavily nerfed Leadership-type thing. I don't think it'll hurt much to have it a level early.

[Temotei]

Are you going to do the Class Building contests, or should we suggest stuff we made there separately?

Morph has looked at contests previously without request (especially at the winners), though business has kept him away from that and other tiering fun for a while.

[Korney]

Thanks for your time and your input. It's greatly appreaciated.
I will think about it and take another look at the homwbrew.
:smallsmile:

[danzibr]

First of all, thanks for the input! Also, the class is undergoing a major overhaul at the moment... kinda. I'll make a comment on this at the end.*

I'd make the failure formula for Flows easier than (100-10*modifier+5*flow spent-5*flowist level)%.
Well, that's just for external fusions (renamed meditations). You're not supposed to be able to do them early on easily. I'd be open to modifying the formula, though.

Since flying takes a standard action: I presume can they float in place, just like other creatures with perfect maneuverability?
Right, right. Should I clarify this?

Gentle Touch:

This sounds like saying the same thing twice, but worded differently, ending up with it looking like you mean that if a Flowist is Medium and the opponent is Large or larger, for every size category difference, the target is knocked back 20 feet. I am guessing you meant simply for every size category difference (so that Small and smaller would also get knocked back, but not Medium targets). Is that correct? Overall, it seems a little weird to me. What's the explanation for this? (Fluff- or crunch-wise.)
Fixed it, thanks. One instance of opponent should have been flowist. As for the explanation, it was inspired from a dream I had. If you're an anime fan (I'm sure this is in movies too), imagine one dude being so baddonkey he can send someone else flying just by touching them.

This seems to be the feature which needs the most revision.

I like that Path of Mastery gives some class skills based on what Path you pick.
Thank you, thank you.

All meditations are available, right?
At the moment, basically, yeah. They start knowing all internal, then get surface, then get external. However, I limited this in the new version. Speaking of which...

* I'm making several changes. There will be 3 base classes, 4 prestige classes, at least one new monster, 2 new races, a good few more fusions. It's a huge WIP right now... but I'm constantly working on it. I wonder if I should post it as-is to get feedback as I go or do the whole thing (or almost the whole thing) before posting it. Of the above stuff I have the 3 base classes, basically, ideas for all the PrC's (just need to write them up), same for the monster, have one race written up, need to write up the other.

[Garryl]

Well, that's just for external fusions (renamed meditations). You're not supposed to be able to do them early on easily. I'd be open to modifying the formula, though.


Modified Flowist level check to successfully use an external fusion. Add 1d20 + your Flowist level + twice your ability modifier against a DC of 21 + the amount of Flow used. That gives the same success rate, but is expressed in a simpler manner that is more consistent with the rest of the game.

[Morph Bark]

Well, that's just for external fusions (renamed meditations). You're not supposed to be able to do them early on easily. I'd be open to modifying the formula, though.

Garryl's formula sounds like a good alteration and more naturally fitting into the existing rules.


Right, right. Should I clarify this?

That might be good, spell it out clearly, leave nothing vague. :smallsmile:


Fixed it, thanks. One instance of opponent should have been flowist. As for the explanation, it was inspired from a dream I had. If you're an anime fan (I'm sure this is in movies too), imagine one dude being so baddonkey he can send someone else flying just by touching them.

This seems to be the feature which needs the most revision.

A few pages earlier, in fact, I asked what people's favourite anime were, if they watched any. :smalltongue: Hmmm, basing the knock-back effect on size seems weird to me, as then it does not affect a target that is the same size. Perhaps instead make it so that you can trade in 1 damage die to knock an enemy back 5 ft? That way you have the option of either dealing a lot of damage or knocking them back, and if you knock them into a wall you'd still get to deal damage.

Otherwise the class could practically insta-kill bosses by standing in a place that puts the boss between them and a wall and punch them into the wall and deal double (triple?) the amount of normal damage. Larger creatures would also be easier to knock into a wall (though if I were to DM that, very large creatures could have a chance of knocking it down).


I'm making several changes. There will be 3 base classes, 4 prestige classes, at least one new monster, 2 new races, a good few more fusions. It's a huge WIP right now... but I'm constantly working on it. I wonder if I should post it as-is to get feedback as I go or do the whole thing (or almost the whole thing) before posting it. Of the above stuff I have the 3 base classes, basically, ideas for all the PrC's (just need to write them up), same for the monster, have one race written up, need to write up the other.

Wow. Taking on quite a workload then, eh? You could put it up as a huge WIP, getting feedback as you work on it (works about 80% of the time, though it sometimes takes a while to pick up speed with people's reviewing and helping). If you're still in a phase where you're making a lot of adjustments, I'll hold off on Tiering it for now and wait until you're done, so that I don't need to push it around a lot in case of Tier changes. Then I can Tier it along with the other classes you put up, so get back when you feel you're done. Sound good?

[danzibr]

Modified Flowist level check to successfully use an external fusion. Add 1d20 + your Flowist level + twice your ability modifier against a DC of 21 + the amount of Flow used. That gives the same success rate, but is expressed in a simpler manner that is more consistent with the rest of the game.
Thanks! The thought to do it that way never passed my mind.

A few pages earlier, in fact, I asked what people's favourite anime were, if they watched any. :smalltongue: Hmmm, basing the knock-back effect on size seems weird to me, as then it does not affect a target that is the same size. Perhaps instead make it so that you can trade in 1 damage die to knock an enemy back 5 ft? That way you have the option of either dealing a lot of damage or knocking them back, and if you knock them into a wall you'd still get to deal damage.

Otherwise the class could practically insta-kill bosses by standing in a place that puts the boss between them and a wall and punch them into the wall and deal double (triple?) the amount of normal damage. Larger creatures would also be easier to knock into a wall (though if I were to DM that, very large creatures could have a chance of knocking it down).
Currently if you max out your Gentle Touch (it works like a fusion) you can do 3/4 your level in d6's and if the baddie is next to a wall and fails its saves an equal amount of d4's. So at level 10 7d6+7d4, an average of 42 damage if they fail their save, 32 if they make it by a bit, 24.5 if they make it by a good bit. Too strong for level 10?

Wow. Taking on quite a workload then, eh? You could put it up as a huge WIP, getting feedback as you work on it (works about 80% of the time, though it sometimes takes a while to pick up speed with people's reviewing and helping). If you're still in a phase where you're making a lot of adjustments, I'll hold off on Tiering it for now and wait until you're done, so that I don't need to push it around a lot in case of Tier changes. Then I can Tier it along with the other classes you put up, so get back when you feel you're done. Sound good?
I'll probably... wait until I have 3 more things done then put it up. But yeah, waiting with the tiering is totally fine (thanks for doing this btw). I need to finish up the third base class, add a couple fusions, make a monster and a PrC. That should be enough to work off of.

[Jormengand]

Any more word on the Honour Guard? How would you suggest I cleared up the Guard skill in the table?

[sengmeng]

The amount of bonded allies and the changes in saves seem like quite a handful to keep track of, especially when multiclassing. @_@

Actually, the bonded allies plus the summoning prettymuch give it the Truenamer capstone right at level 2. That makes the class an incredible dip, as afterwards they could just take levels in classes with abilities of much higher power and still retain that capstone-like ability. It's pretty huge, so before I go on, I'd like to know if there are much more of such abilities in there? Particularly with huge range.

Well, the telepathy and summoned distance are unlimited range, but other than eventually being able to do it multiple times per round, they don't get much else that makes them too deadly or broken. In the Base Class Challenge chat thread, the main concern was with the Vengeance ability which allowed them to basically auto-crit on anything that dropped a bonded ally, and another ability which allows them to be the point of origin for allies' spells, both of which I already nerfed a bit. I'm not opposed to revision and must admit that I didn't look at my creation from a dipping point of view. So would it be tier broken as is, based on how powerful it could make a dipper? I was shooting for maybe 3, but I guess it effectively becomes "tier=tier of most powerful ally."

[kanachi]

Hiya Morph, if you get the chance I would still be really interested to see what you made of the dimensional double. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255782)

[Temotei]

Here's an updated list of tags on the tiered classes.

Horror: 8
Modern: 1
Oriental: 4
Sci-Fi: 1
Silly: 2
Steampunk: 2

Book: 0
Comic: 1
Historical: 1
Japan: 6
Original: 13
Television: 1
Video Game: 19

Arcane: 21
Binding: 2
Divine: 13
Incarnum: 4
Infusions: 1
Invoker: 4
Martial Adept: 18
Psionic: 3
Shadow: 1
Truenames: 1
Unique: 30
-Unique: 8
Vancian: 22

Buffer: 15
Crafter: 8
Debuffer: 10
Face: 41
Healer: 13
Magic: 53
Melee: 59
Moneymaker: 1
Ranged: 18
Sage: 17
Scout: 24
Tank: 10
Trapmonkey: 5

Big Read: 0
Expanded: 14
Fix: 4
Incomplete: 4
Roleplay: 1

Homebrew Fix Classes
Total Amount: 35

[Veklim]

Do you mean the lists of ToB disciplines?

Yes and no, obviously those could do with being up at the beginning of the thread, but I was actually referring to the small list of Tierings you did here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13613155&postcount=316).

[molten_dragon]

I'll submit my homebrew, the Hunter for consideration. It's a ranged ToB-style martial adept patterned somewhat off of the ranger.

[Morph Bark]

Any more word on the Honour Guard? How would you suggest I cleared up the Guard skill in the table?

I would suggest at least renaming each of the Guard abilities to something else. One of them you can keep the Guard name for, but the others should have other names to make them more distinctive and thus less confusing for someone new to playing the class.


Hiya Morph, if you get the chance I would still be really interested to see what you made of the dimensional double. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255782)

It's one of the next batch on the list. :smallwink:


Here's an updated list of tags on the tiered classes.

*snip*

Thanks, Temotei!


Yes and no, obviously those could do with being up at the beginning of the thread, but I was actually referring to the small list of Tierings you did here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13613155&postcount=316).

For as far as I can see, those have all already been added a while ago. Did I miss one?

[Zman]

I would like to submit my Dragon Ascendant for Tiering. Some believe it too powerful, others lacking. The goal was mid to upper Tier 3.

[Temotei]

Thanks, Temotei!

Of course. If I notice it lag behind in the future, I'll hop on that.

[Jormengand]

I would suggest at least renaming each of the Guard abilities to something else. One of them you can keep the Guard name for, but the others should have other names to make them more distinctive and thus less confusing for someone new to playing the class.

As Guarding is still one thing (as in you can't use the attack bonus one on one guy, the AC one on another), called them "Damage Guard," "Armour Guard," "Multi-Guard" and "Inspired Guard." Also, buffed Inspired Guard to give +2 at level 10, +4 at 15 and +6 at 20. Also gave him +1 to all three convos and K (Nobility) every odd level.

[Veklim]

For as far as I can see, those have all already been added a while ago. Did I miss one?
Don't know about anyone else's, but my Open Palm hasn't been transferred... :smallfrown:

In a totally non-partisan manner, I may go through the lists and compare...was it something I said?! :smalleek:

[Silva Stormrage]

Haruspex:
Share Divination, I guess it allows stuff like sharing the "benefits" of a Detect Magic spell so that you can cover an area twice as big (or times as big)?

[I]I knew you were about to do that and You knew he was about to do that are nifty. At first I thought "wait, does this allow basically taking a standard action as an immediate action?" Luckily, that isn't the case, because that would've been way powerful. You can basically ready nearly anything, for as far as I know, so it sounds to me like this is perfect for surprise round stuff or initiating a combat out of an ambush.

Just A Dream. Woah, god, that's the big stuff! I'd argue that this couldn't be used if the Haruspex is dead, but if that would be just a dream, that would be a bad argument. I could say it shouldn't be used then, but a level later and further such big things can become common easily. I'd think that the dream would influence the Haruspex' actions though, or at least his composure and how he speaks. Unless he has perfect emotional control and perfect memory of the dream he would most likely not be able to go through the same day up to a certain point, right? Either way, that's just what I think. It's most likely an ability very much up to DM scrutiny, if they'd even play the game at that level (I mean, below 15 it doesn't come in play, so it should be peachy). Also a good idea to limit it to 1/[period of time greater than a day].

Marked: how does a Haruspex Mark someone? It isn't mentioned if it requires an attack roll, what range it has, whether it requires line of sight or line of effect... As written it seems a Haruspex could go "hm, I want to mark the King of Arushabia" and do it. Only the reference to the Scry spell suggests that it works just like Scrying, but it doesn't outright state that it does.

Perfect Divinations: what divination spells have large XP costs attached to them? Or a casting time greater than 10 minutes? I know there are some that require a casting time of 1 or 10 minutes, which doesn't bother me that much, but I'm curious if there are spells with a far greater casting time. (Epic not included.)

Well of Knowledge seems like it should be (Sp) rather than (Ex), since you say spell resistance applies.

Lastly, and most importantly in fact, you never describe their spellcasting. Are they prepared or spontaneous? I am only presuming they know all spells on their list (if they are spontaneous that is), since there is no "spells known" table, and I know Int is their spellcasting stat since you mention it under "Abilities".


Soul Devourer:
There is a description for Ebon Blade, but no mention of what happens to it at level 20, while it shows on the table at that level.

I like how some invocations have a cooldown. Nitpick: the Dispel Magic Lesser Necromantic Invocation has a [ in front of it. Death's Messenger Least Invocation has a typo (life instead of lift).

I'd bold "Plague Essence Invocations" to stand out more as a header.

Gaze of the Vampire duplicating Charm Monster, isn't that too much at that level? That's the same level as the official Charm Person invocation.



Haruspex:
First off one of the main reason for Shared Divination is for things like True Strike. It gives the Haruspex some use of a few of divination's self buffs that would really help him otherwise.

Yes I knew you were about to do that is pretty strong. I am actually a bit concerned about it in a gestalt but I don't think its that big of an issue.

Just a Dream. Yaaa that one is really good. I put it in mostly as a 1/week save game trick from Psionics. It personally feels like an ability an incredibly powerful diviner would have. Uncontrollable visions about his own death so he can avoid them.

Marked. Fair point its supposed to be within line of sight and line of effect. I will also note that it has verbal components. The point of the ability isn't so that you can mark a creature on the other side of the planet but if you walk up or see the king you could spend the full round action and scry him easier later that day or week. I also added a way to remove the mark.

Perfect Divinations: Legend Lore, Hindsight, Scrying, Divination, I am sure there are a couple more, most of them are out of combat so I figured this wouldn't overpower anything anyway.

Well of Knowledge should be SP.

Spellcasting. DOH! Okay I should of noticed that... They are spontaneously intelligence based casters I will add that. They cast like beguilers and dread necromancers essentially. I added that clause

Soul Devourer:
Right at level 20 you deal 2 negative levels per hit. Not sure how that wasn't in there.

I thought the charm person invocation duplicated charm monster not person. Thats changed now.

Thank you for the formatting issues.

[The-Mage-King]

Letting you know that I've reposted my Sentai class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264677), Morph. The old OP and reserved posts were getting snug.

So add updating the link to your plans. :smalltongue:

[kanachi]

It's one of the next batch on the list. :smallwink:


I cant wait! Thank you so much Morph!

My hand is also doing pretty good so I hope to compete in the next contest, which will hopefully give you even more work :)

[Morph Bark]

Don't know about anyone else's, but my Open Palm hasn't been transferred... :smallfrown:

In a totally non-partisan manner, I may go through the lists and compare...was it something I said?! :smalleek:

Have you checked the Fix classes? :smalltongue:


Letting you know that I've reposted my Sentai class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264677), Morph. The old OP and reserved posts were getting snug.

So add updating the link to your plans. :smalltongue:

I shall. Any major changes between this and the old thread? In the class, primarily.


My hand is also doing pretty good so I hope to compete in the next contest, which will hopefully give you even more work :)

Good to hear you're healing well. :smallsmile:


In other news, my two oldest players asked me two days ago if I wanted to restart an old campaign, which was our longest-running and included tons of homebrew. Instead, we started up a new one, because after some thinking they decided they'd rather not revisit the old one and keep the old sheets the way they are for nostalgia value.

Instead, we started up this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14390814#post14390814).

Why am I posting this here? Well, we'll be using tons of homebrew again, including some of the classes here (Destined Hero, Teleporter and Sentai), will be making use of the Xenoalchemist's grafts (which also feature in another campaign of ours) and many other things, so I thought some of you might be interested. If I have the time and will to do it, I may even put up a campaign journal about it... not sure though, last one didn't have that much reaction to it and much of the fun in writing is having it be read, so maybe I'm just trying to poll people's opinions here. :X

[The-Mage-King]

I shall. Any major changes between this and the old thread? In the class, primarily.

Not really major, but a cap on Cha to Yes, of 1/2th class level. Like 5 new abilities, but...

That's it.

[Jormengand]

Okies, Honour Guard is finished, I think. With the exception of more Honour Paths, which are hardly going to screw with its tier.

[Veklim]

Have you checked the Fix classes? :smalltongue:

.......oh yeah..... :smallredface:

[Jarian]

so maybe I'm just trying to poll people's opinions here. :X

We'll I'd read it, but then again I'm biased towards wanting to know how the Destined Hero works in such an... interesting setup.

[Lord_Gareth]

I am sad that Malefactor doesn't have a descriptor paragraph yet T_T

Remind me to call you in when the "Benefactor" is finished, Morph.

(Accepting suggestions for a better name)

[Morph Bark]

Added a bunch of classes to the Tier list. I'm currently looking over the Dimensional Conduit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255782), and I'm thinking that from its signature ability alone it should be at least Tier 2, and definitely not lower than High Tier 3. At level 1 they have a very strong base to start with, since there's two of them. They don't have other class abilities, which brings it back down a bit, but it definitely has major roleplaying applications and the conduit's double still has class abilities itself as well (and might even have better ability scores than the conduit - which is kind of weird since otherwise the double has to be exactly the same at birth). At level 8, it comes down to having 3 cohorts, and at level 20 this has been upgraded to a squad of 6 level 15 characters under your control -- you just can't use all of them at any one time. A downside is that they may not own items, though they may borrow the conduit's, which makes them ideal candidates for Vow of Poverty. Upon further reading, the doubles enter existence replacing the conduit in their exact spot, wearing their magic items, making this a non-issue (or does VoP allow for borrowing items this way? If so...).

Under the header "Doubles as a Disguise" it is also explained that doubles can use the Disguise skill to fool other people into thinking they are the conduit. What I wonder now is whether they can fool people into thinking they aren't. I mean, they look largely the same and they take the place of the conduit. Many could easily assume them to be the same person.

The header "Doubles and Spells (and Psionics)" is also a little confusing. Is this the spells/day table for the conduit, and thus shared by all the doubles, or is this for all the doubles seperately? If the latter, what happens to doubles with levels in PrCs that grant spells? And is the doubles' level used to determine the spells/day, or the conduit's? (In the case of the doubles' level, they only go up to 5th-level spells.) As for psionic powers, do they use the normal power's level, or is it based on the amounts of power points used, such as when it is augmented?

As for "Items and Class Abilities", what about the other way that parts of the class that aren't part of the double (like the mentioned familiar and animal companion) can go? What happens to them when the double is sent back to their dimension and the conduit returns? Do they remain, or are they sent back as well?

Either way, it is easily possible for someone to pick Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes for their doubles, even ones that do not rely on spells or powers. Artificer is an easy one, for example. And since you're playing a dimensional conduit anyway, you're likely allowed to use homebrew, so you might even use high-Tier homebrew classes for them.

[Lix Lorn]

Two thiiings,
Looking at the first posts, I spotted that the formatting is broked in the second post's tome of battle spoiler. There's a broken link too.

Also

It was like I was standing on a giant compost heap with my trusty shovel, looking for gemstones and finding just a handful of semi-precious stones. ;_;
Spotted this by following a link. Can I sig it? xD

[Morph Bark]

Two thiiings,
Looking at the first posts, I spotted that the formatting is broked in the second post's tome of battle spoiler. There's a broken link too.

Around where exactly is it broken? (Like, a specific discipline?)

If you mean the "Subsystems and Expansions" posts on the first page, the thing in the spoiler is supposed to be a template I use for myself stored there out of convenience so I can use it whenever I come across new disciplines. Since posting the old thing I've added at least twenty disciplines.


Also

Spotted this by following a link. Can I sig it? xD

Go right ahead. :smalltongue:


Talking about the disciplines, once I get around to reviewing them further in depth and ranking them, I should remember to also see how much they rely on their associated skill, so that people taking the discipline know beforehand whether or not to invest much into it.

Also, I've noticed I might not have been using my Original and Expanded tags consistently. I'm thinking of putting some greater scrutiny on Expanded (and thus add/remove some) and possibly removing the Original tag. Either that, or slap it on everything that doesn't have any of the other Inspiration tags, which would mean putting it on classes that are pretty generic in flavour. I'm at a bit of a loss of how to handle this one and have been for a while.

On another note, I've been thinking of adding a new tier, which I'd call "Powerful Tier 4". Basically, this would include classes that have a LOT of power, but with prettymuch no versatility. I kind of wonder if this would work though, and whether or not most of the classes who might qualify might not end up more suited for Borderline 3-4, High Tier 3 or Tier 2, making it a defunct concept before I even begin.

[Lix Lorn]

Around where exactly is it broken? (Like, a specific discipline?)

If you mean the "Subsystems and Expansions" posts on the first page, the thing in the spoiler is supposed to be a template I use for myself stored there out of convenience so I can use it whenever I come across new disciplines. Since posting the old thing I've added at least twenty disciplines.
I do mean that post, and there's a link named 'Empty Word', which links to the web address 'x'. :smalltongue:


Go right ahead. :smalltongue:
Awesomes.


On another note, I've been thinking of adding a new tier, which I'd call "Powerful Tier 4". Basically, this would include classes that have a LOT of power, but with prettymuch no versatility. I kind of wonder if this would work though, and whether or not most of the classes who might qualify might not end up more suited for Borderline 3-4, High Tier 3 or Tier 2, making it a defunct concept before I even begin.
Well, personally, I'd call one of them not tier 2, or tier 3, but a bad class. If you're so good at killing things with swords that you can't fit into tier 4, you are broken.

[Silva Stormrage]

Hm, Morph Bark could I have you reasoning behind putting the Haruspex at tier 2? It never seemed much like a tier 2 to me. Always seemed like a tier 3 with high out of combat use but less in combat use.

[Serpentine]

I'd like to have my stuff Tiered, but it's a pain to find and link threads on the phone. If you can be bothered searching for it, I've got an Animorphs set, and Magma, Aberrant and Plant Druids - all in my Variant Druids thread. Maybe one or two others, I forget. Not my Archer, it's crap. Elsewise I'll link when I've got the internet back.

[Vauron]

I'd like to have my stuff Tiered, but it's a pain to find and link threads on the phone. If you can be bothered searching for it, I've got an Animorphs set, and Magma, Aberrant and Plant Druids - all in my Variant Druids thread. Maybe one or two others, I forget. Not my Archer, it's crap. Elsewise I'll link when I've got the internet back.

The Druids and the Animorph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171732)*


*Aberrant is in post #44, Animorph is in #2

Serpentine, were any changes made to the Animorph when you added it to that thread, or is the animorph's standalone thread still current?

[DracoDei]

Campaign journals would be invaluable to those with homebrew in the game.

I notice you limit it to homebrew from this thread. What about individual feats and items?



On another note, I've been thinking of adding a new tier, which I'd call "Powerful Tier 4". Basically, this would include classes that have a LOT of power, but with prettymuch no versatility. I kind of wonder if this would work though, and whether or not most of the classes who might qualify might not end up more suited for Borderline 3-4, High Tier 3 or Tier 2, making it a defunct concept before I even begin.
I don't know Tiering in great detail, but this sounds like it could be useful. Try a few candidates (enough for a statistical sample) and see?

[toapat]

I don't know Tiering in great detail, but this sounds like it could be useful. Try a few candidates (enough for a statistical sample) and see?

The tier system is rather bad, as it relies on displaying at least two different variables with a single aspect. Those variables are Versatility and Power, which split into these:

Versatility:

T1: Potentially can contribute significantly to any encounter
T2: Can Contribute to any encounter, can excel at certain encounters
T3+3x: Can contribute significantly to a single type of encounter, but irrelevant otherwise, X designates classes that have many different types of encounters they can potentially contribute to, but can not be built to do so always.
T4: Can not contribute significantly even to encounters in which they specialize

Power:

T1: Trivializes combat when played well
T2: Difficult to challenge, but not impossible
T3: Engaged by combat encounters
T4: Suffers Adversity in combat encounters
T5: Liability in combat encounters

[Eldan]

Perhaps we should do a kind of matrix instead, with two dimensions, power and versatility.

Power: Gamebreaking/Powerful/unable to contribute
Versatility: Everything/versatile/one-dimensional.

The classical tiers would be:
T1: Gamebreaking/everything
T2: Gamebreaking/versatile
T3: Powerful/versatile
T4: powerful/one-dimensional or unable to contribute/versatile
T5/6: unable to contribute/one-dimensional

[toapat]

Perhaps we should do a kind of matrix instead, with two dimensions, power and versatility.

Power: Gamebreaking/Powerful/unable to contribute
Versatility: Everything/versatile/one-dimensional.

you assume the tier system obeys its own overviews (It doesnt).

also, even arraying it to a limited number of subgroups, you cant really strip it down to lower then 5 for each, Its just that Versatility 3x are classes like Sorcerer, who has to specialize because of their limited spell list.

While Morph tries to maintain a consistency, JaronK has admitted that he has allowed biases into it, such as Factotum is the only class allowed the Iaijutsu Slash, Rogue being T4 "because Factotum", and Warlock being disallowed item crafting, but Artificer is allowed it without limits (granted, Arti is that 1D)

[Lix Lorn]

The tier system is explicitly dealing with the former, though. Power comes into it in T2, admittedly, but only as it interacts to versatility.
5: Does nothing well.
4: One thing, well.
3: One thing well, other things alright.
2: One thing REALLY well, sometimes other things alright
1: Everything REALLY well.

[toapat]

The tier system is explicitly dealing with the former, though. Power comes into it in T2, admittedly, but only as it interacts to versatility.
5: Does nothing well.
4: One thing, well.
3: One thing well, other things alright.
2: One thing REALLY well, sometimes other things alright
1: Everything REALLY well.

actually, Power is T3-6, where as "How badly can you break the game?" is T1-2.

It is suposed to be unbiased, but then there would be no T6 if it wasnt. T1-2 is pretty much honest, but afterwards you have to take it as JaronK's oppinion of the classes, as much as where they will be with average Op

[Lix Lorn]

Not... really?

It's impossible to consider variety without considering power.
If one class can do everything, but do it REALLY BADLY, it has less variety than a class that does everything decently. Cause it can actually do them.

Tier 1/2 are not 'how much' but 'how many ways can one build'. A sorcerer can build one broken thing and take one set of broken spells. Wizard cleric druid break it in a different way every day.

3 is better than 4 because it has some utility. 4 is better than 5 because it's actually decent at its speciality. 5 is better than 6 because it has something.

[toapat]

Not... really?

It's impossible to consider variety without considering power.
If one class can do everything, but do it REALLY BADLY, it has less variety than a class that does everything decently. Cause it can actually do them.

Tier 1/2 are not 'how much' but 'how many ways can one build'. A sorcerer can build one broken thing and take one set of broken spells. Wizard cleric druid break it in a different way every day.

3 is better than 4 because it has some utility. 4 is better than 5 because it's actually decent at its speciality. 5 is better than 6 because it has something.

I think you dont understand the point. The Tier system is supposed to for lvls 3-6 completely disregard Power, and only take into account versatility. T1-2 its kinda expected the entire thing is going to be power, because these classes can be optimized to the point of braking the game in half, with their power arranged by how many different ways they can break it.

except, The Rogue is Tier 4, which is a tier that is only competent at one thing, despite being the posterchild of T3.

The Initiators have absolutely No versatility at all. Sure they can break spines in half in a variety of ways in combat, but that is Combat alone. They are almost strictly T4 material, but are treated as T3s because they are the most powerful mundanes printed.

Paladin* is assumed to have none of their support outside of the mount at all, if that even. Warlock isnt allowed crafting, while Artificer is. Barbarian is assumed to be taking Lion Spirit Totem lvl 1, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, while the Factotum is assumed to have taken Iaijutsu Focus, EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor, and Quickdraw.

*Paladin is one of the only classes that even can contribute in standard challenge 3, being able to get 36+ (+1 per extra 2nd lvl spell slot, +8 per fourth, No DMM though because of MFK4) people under the effects of Shield Other simultaneously in one day.

[Lix Lorn]

Warblades could arguably be tier 4, but swordsages have a decent chunk of skills, while crusaders have healing and auras.

Rogues... you know what, I agree. Why are Rogues tier 4? They have skills, and are decent in combat. What gives?

[Silva Stormrage]

Warblades could arguably be tier 4, but swordsages have a decent chunk of skills, while crusaders have healing and auras.

Rogues... you know what, I agree. Why are Rogues tier 4? They have skills, and are decent in combat. What gives?

Because factotum is just simply better than it at almost everything. Not the best reasoning but that was the original purpose.

I wonder if some people should try to redo the tier system, the general idea is good and most of them fit. But I think the one axis tier system isn't useful enough in gauging combat and out of combat versatility and power.

[toapat]

Warblades could arguably be tier 4, but swordsages have a decent chunk of skills, while crusaders have healing and auras.

Rogues... you know what, I agree. Why are Rogues tier 4? They have skills, and are decent in combat. What gives?

I dont have enough experience with Desert Wind or Shadow hand, but Crusader is as much a T4 as Warblade. Both are only useful in combat, and the healing from Divine Spirit is unusable without a head to pound inside out.


Because factotum is just simply better than it at almost everything. Not the best reasoning but that was the original purpose.

I wonder if some people should try to redo the tier system, the general idea is good and most of them fit. But I think the one axis tier system isn't useful enough in gauging combat and out of combat versatility and power.

I agree that, thanks to (upto) 10 spells/encounter, the Factotum is better then the rogue for combat. On the other hand, its only better then the rogue 1/Day otherwise, and the DM could be polite one day and throw you 13 traps to be disabled in a row. you either spend 2 weeks waiting for the factotum to get through them, or have the rogue take them all out with his static +4 DD over the Factotum.

Ive been mentally working on Victory Points (the dev-name for a more detailed tier system) for a while, but the largest problem is, the Tier system has this problem of being a really simple thing for people to understand, and only has one axis, where as you have to spend a bit of time thinking about whether that 1/5 Truenamer or that 3/2 Warblade is better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I agree that, thanks to (upto) 10 spells/encounter, the Factotum is better then the rogue for combat. On the other hand, its only better then the rogue 1/Day otherwise, and the DM could be polite one day and throw you 13 traps to be disabled in a row. you either spend 2 weeks waiting for the factotum to get through them, or have the rogue take them all out with his static +4 DD over the Factotum.
A rogue may be better for straight damage, as long as he's not facing sneak attack-immune foes. Factotum in combat needs iajitsu focus/spell abuse to dish out the pain.

But out-of-combat? Factotum gets probably as many, if not more skills, since he can focus so much more on Intelligence than the rogue. I assume the "1/day" thing you're talking about is Cunning Knowledge, but... a factotum built as a trapmonkey will have just as many ranks in Search/Disable Device as a rogue will-- the rogue has no inherent skill bonuses (a bonus to defenses against traps, yes. Disabling them, no). Cunning Knowledge is for the skills you didn't bother to take ranks in because they don't come up often.

[toapat]

A rogue may be better for straight damage, as long as he's not facing sneak attack-immune foes. Factotum in combat needs iajitsu focus/spell abuse to dish out the pain.

But out-of-combat? Factotum gets probably as many, if not more skills, since he can focus so much more on Intelligence than the rogue. I assume the "1/day" thing you're talking about is Cunning Knowledge, but... a factotum built as a trapmonkey will have just as many ranks in Search/Disable Device as a rogue will-- the rogue has no inherent skill bonuses (a bonus to defenses against traps, yes. Disabling them, no). Cunning Knowledge is for the skills you didn't bother to take ranks in because they don't come up often.

Rogue and Factotum need about the same investment in both dex and Int, although rogue will be getting less milage if they choose to take the 4 Distracting Attack ranger splash so they can shore up the weaknesses of sneak attack. (4 Distracting Attack Ranger/3 Penetrating Strike Rogue, Sneak Attack vs Everything. you just want a level of Targetteer and a ranged focus though because you dont want to be full attacking in melee with that HP.)

In other news, let me figure out how to grandiosly write this up, and end this aside where i Ninja Morph's thread to point out that the base system kinda ignored itself.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rogue and Factotum need about the same investment in both dex and Int, although rogue will be getting less milage if they choose to take the 4 Distracting Attack ranger splash so they can shore up the weaknesses of sneak attack. (4 Distracting Attack Ranger/3 Penetrating Strike Rogue, Sneak Attack vs Everything. you just want a level of Targetteer and a ranged focus though because you dont want to be full attacking in melee with that HP.)

Factotums have a bunch of abilities that let them use Int in the place of a lot of other abilities, making things like Dex and Str less important.

[kanachi]

I'm currently looking over the Dimensional Conduit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255782), and I'm thinking that from its signature ability alone it should be at least Tier 2, and definitely not lower than High Tier 3. At level 1 they have a very strong base to start with, since there's two of them.


Agreed. I think its hard to call the call anything less than Tier 2. I wanted to try to rake it down to Top Tier 3 but realistically its just not doable with the core mechanic of the class. It probably sit quite firmly as a mid Tier 2 by the end.



They don't have other class abilities, which brings it back down a bit, but it definitely has major roleplaying applications and the conduit's double still has class abilities itself as well (and might even have better ability scores than the conduit - which is kind of weird since otherwise the double has to be exactly the same at birth).


If you subscribe to the whole "infinite dimensions" theory then there is a version of each of us somewhere out there which is an Olympic athlete, a special forces bad ass, a famous actor, a leading politician, a religious guru or even a version which is all of these things at once. Its a bit like googling yourself and finding out that the first thing which pops up to do with "you" is that emo blog you made 5 years ago.

So yer, ultimately doubles may have wildly different ability scores than their conduit.



At level 8, it comes down to having 3 cohorts, and at level 20 this has been upgraded to a squad of 6 level 15 characters under your control -- you just can't use all of them at any one time. A downside is that they may not own items, though they may borrow the conduit's, which makes them ideal candidates for Vow of Poverty. Upon further reading, the doubles enter existence replacing the conduit in their exact spot, wearing their magic items, making this a non-issue (or does VoP allow for borrowing items this way? If so...).


I'm not actually that familiar with VoP. I always hear people talking about it, but its never been something I've looked into as it seems to bring about a lot of issues. That said I would probably rule that a double who had taken such a vow would probably not allow them self to become one of the conduits doubles as they would know that such an action would provoke such a contentious moral and philosophical issue. Cop out? maybe, but I think it fits the theme. If your a millionaire and you give all your money away to your best friend and they then continue to fund your old life style you have not really embraced the life of the everyman... your probably just a bit eccentric or trying to evade taxman.



Under the header "Doubles as a Disguise" it is also explained that doubles can use the Disguise skill to fool other people into thinking they are the conduit. What I wonder now is whether they can fool people into thinking they aren't. I mean, they look largely the same and they take the place of the conduit. Many could easily assume them to be the same person.


I don't see why not, the door swings both ways on this one. The Olyimpic Athlete version of myself would probably have a hard time passing off as me through.



The header "Doubles and Spells (and Psionics)" is also a little confusing. Is this the spells/day table for the conduit, and thus shared by all the doubles, or is this for all the doubles seperately? If the latter, what happens to doubles with levels in PrCs that grant spells? And is the doubles' level used to determine the spells/day, or the conduit's? (In the case of the doubles' level, they only go up to 5th-level spells.) As for psionic powers, do they use the normal power's level, or is it based on the amounts of power points used, such as when it is augmented?


The spells/day table is shared amongst all the conduits doubles. This is needed to stop a mega spam of every magic using class out there. Rules as Written psionics are used at their standard power level, but this obviously makes psionics a more attractive option so it may be worth upping this to the "if augmented" level.



As for "Items and Class Abilities", what about the other way that parts of the class that aren't part of the double (like the mentioned familiar and animal companion) can go? What happens to them when the double is sent back to their dimension and the conduit returns? Do they remain, or are they sent back as well?


The double takes everything that is "part of them" back with them into their own dimension. Thus your double cant really leave things for you.



Either way, it is easily possible for someone to pick Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes for their doubles, even ones that do not rely on spells or powers. Artificer is an easy one, for example. And since you're playing a dimensional conduit anyway, you're likely allowed to use homebrew, so you might even use high-Tier homebrew classes for them.

If you want to play an Artificer its probably better to go for a straight 20 build than peek at 15th, but yer your right it certainly gives you a lot of options. Thats what this class is all about though, options. Your always acting as a sub optimal version of the class in question but the mere fact you can become said class, even at a sub optimal level, is powerful.

Ultimately I would expect any player using this class to select doubles with an interesting mind set of their own... Remember they are different people to the character and thus have a life of their own experiances to draw on when making their decisions. Sure you may be terrified of the Girallon but in your mage's dimension they are creatures of fun, seen only in travelling circuses as amusements to children. Maybe your swordsage is a racist or your Artificer has a fear of flying.

Your constant switching between doubles could lead others to view you as suffering from a strange multiple personality disorder, demonic possession or something far worse.

I think you could break this class if you went crazy with homebrew, but then I think you could probably argue that with most things. I prefer to look at it the other way round though... so now you have the ability to play your 6 favourite homebrews all at once and with a thematic link between them! Sixth sigma win!

P.S: sorry it took me so long to write this reply and thanks for looking over the class morph, you sir are a legend.

[Morph Bark]

Hm, Morph Bark could I have you reasoning behind putting the Haruspex at tier 2? It never seemed much like a tier 2 to me. Always seemed like a tier 3 with high out of combat use but less in combat use.

Ultimately, it was Brief Glimpse that did that. Since it doesn't go into specifics how something fails, just that it fails, you can effectively use it to block/make fail any one thing, which includes things like Epic spells. Aside from that, it doesn't have anything broken by itself, though it could use scry-and-die tactics if it had appropriate party members, but that is more situational and less strong. If Brief Glimpse were to have specific ways to be causing something to fail, or only have a chance to make it do so, then the class would more likely be Tier 3.


I'd like to have my stuff Tiered, but it's a pain to find and link threads on the phone. If you can be bothered searching for it, I've got an Animorphs set, and Magma, Aberrant and Plant Druids - all in my Variant Druids thread. Maybe one or two others, I forget. Not my Archer, it's crap. Elsewise I'll link when I've got the internet back.

Looking at your signature (the old one currently stored away), you don't have an Expanded Homebrewer Signature, right? Shame the search function is down, that woulda helped a lot.


Perhaps we should do a kind of matrix instead, with two dimensions, power and versatility.

That might certainly create a better framework of judgement for classes, but even if it works out, I won't use it that way, as it'd get too complicated to easily keep up with. Plus I'd have to go over all the classes I've already Tiered, again!


While Morph tries to maintain a consistency, JaronK has admitted that he has allowed biases into it, such as Factotum is the only class allowed the Iaijutsu Slash, Rogue being T4 "because Factotum", and Warlock being disallowed item crafting, but Artificer is allowed it without limits (granted, Arti is that 1D)

Heh, thank you for the compliment. I do think that it's pretty darn hard sometimes to maintain any consistency, or to try to remain as objective as possible. I know that at least in one case, with the Xenoalchemist, I may have been more subjective about it, thus putting it in a higher Tier than the similar Connoisseur, but I figured that that should be so because in a party of four, the Xenoalchemist would be much more powerful than the Connoisseur, since the other party members could be all grafted up as well. Undoubtedly, there are a few others as well that may not be as readily apparent to me, but this is one reason I made the High Tier 3 and Borderline Tier 3-4 tiers here, because the lines aren't always that clear. The only ones that are really clear are the 2-3 border and the 5-6 border.

Since you mention skills (Iaijutsu Focus), I take those into account for roles, but not so much power or versatility. More class skills and skill points certainly give more versatility, which may be enough for a move from Tier 4 to Borderline, or Borderline to 3, but you've got to keep in mind that every class can take any skill at any point. The thing is just that they won't be any good at it if it isn't a class skill and they don't invest a lot in it.

As for ToB classes: even if you were to scrutinize them pretty harshly, I don't think any of them would fall below Borderline Tier 3-4, especially in Homebrew. Well, aside from those classes specifically made to be very low Tier, such as in that Tier 5-6 thread that was around a while back that dspeyer made a lot of stuff for.

Just as long as everyone is aware that I make no pretense to being entirely objective. Heck, I don't even want to put every class I come across into this. While I look over and comment on all the classes linked to in this thread (as much as I am able to), I end up only Tiering classes that I think have a certain measure of quality that would make me want to use them myself, or see my players use them. Then again, I've been saying that from the start, and still plenty of people have asked me to Tier/critique/comment their work, so I must be doing something right, even if I don't end up actually putting them on the list. :smallsmile:


I think you could break this class if you went crazy with homebrew, but then I think you could probably argue that with most things. I prefer to look at it the other way round though... so now you have the ability to play your 6 favourite homebrews all at once and with a thematic link between them! Sixth sigma win!

This, I think, is definitely one of the Dimensional Conduit's big points. To people who love homebrew, it's an incredibly big plus. To DMs though, it can be a very big minus, because a player may come with several classes they aren't sure about allowing. Plus the amount of bookkeeping involved can be a headache for both of them. I don't think it'd be wise to use prepared casters in combination with the Dimensional Conduit, at any rate.

I've shown the class to some of my players and one of them was very interested in it. He said that if he were to come play in the over-the-top Gestalt game I'm setting up, he'd play a Dimensional Conduit//Dualist. I'm just kind of wondering whether that'd mean the doubles would be Gestalt too, and if so, if they'd be X//Dualists, or X//Ys. :smalleek:


EDIT: Also, if anyone feels like helping me out with a little something, there's this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265031).

[kanachi]

This, I think, is definitely one of the Dimensional Conduit's big points. To people who love homebrew, it's an incredibly big plus. To DMs though, it can be a very big minus, because a player may come with several classes they aren't sure about allowing. Plus the amount of bookkeeping involved can be a headache for both of them. I don't think it'd be wise to use prepared casters in combination with the Dimensional Conduit, at any rate.

I would be inclined to agree.. To be honest i think its probably more fun to try and build up some nice combos can rift off one another nicely to do some awesome things than go all out for power. Combining a bunch of skill monkeys together would be fun for example.



I've shown the class to some of my players and one of them was very interested in it. He said that if he were to come play in the over-the-top Gestalt game I'm setting up, he'd play a Dimensional Conduit//Dualist. I'm just kind of wondering whether that'd mean the doubles would be Gestalt too, and if so, if they'd be X//Dualists, or X//Ys. :smalleek:

They would be X//Y by the rules.... but for your own sanity it might be worth house ruling it so they are all X//Dualists.

put simply your a braver man than me to even think about taking this on in a Gestalt game!

[JaronK]

While Morph tries to maintain a consistency, JaronK has admitted that he has allowed biases into it, such as Factotum is the only class allowed the Iaijutsu Slash, Rogue being T4 "because Factotum", and Warlock being disallowed item crafting, but Artificer is allowed it without limits (granted, Arti is that 1D)

Um... no? I've always tried to avoid bias. Why is the Factotum the only class with Iaijutsu Focus, when the OA Samurai is also in the list (down in T5) as is the Expert? That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who has it as a class skill has it.

And I've certainly never said the Rogue is T4 "because Factotum." The Rogue is in T4 because while their skills are generally solid, their primary method of doing anything in combat is Sneak Attack, which often doesn't work (undead, elementals, plants, oozes, stuff that's too mobile to easily flank or ambush, anything with concealment, etc). While there's ways around this, they often cost a lot of money (Truedeath Crystals require +3 weapons, and that's only for hurting Undead) or are extremely questionable (Wands of Gravestrike only work at all if your DM has the Rules Compendium, burn charges with each use, can fail, use up a hand, and so on). And all this for a damage output that really isn't that great anyway. Add on the fact that they're a close range class that is one of the most fragile classes in existence (d6 HD, only one good save, light armor, very few defensive abilities) and you get a glass cannon that's situational. Plus, their skills are often negated by magic or creature abilities... Arcane Lock completely defeats a Rogue's Open Lock, for example, while if you don't have Darkstalker many enemies completely ignore Hide and Move Silently. So, good in some areas (when they can sneak attack without being counter attacked, when their skills are appropriate to the situation) but can often be useless (when enemies could kill them in one full round attack, when they can't land their precision damage, when their skills are just plain negated, etc). They pretty much define T4.

I have no idea why you think the Warlock is disallowed item crafting. It just doesn't factor in until a bit later for that class... remember, most games are played at lower levels. I had to bias it towards the levels in which the game is generally played. But they of course have item crafting, and of course it's factored in. Meanwhile, the Artificer gets much better item crafting starting right away, so of course it's much more valuable for them.

I think you've got a lot of strange assumptions going on here, and I'm not sure why.

As for the idea of making more tiers, someone certainly could... I just always worried that getting too precise would just get confusing. Besides, the point was always "what classes play well together." Yes, some T4s are all around okay while others are specialists, but they all generally play well together without stealing each other's spotlights. That was all that ever mattered to me... helping games play smoothly.

JaronK

[Jarian]

I've shown the class to some of my players and one of them was very interested in it. He said that if he were to come play in the over-the-top Gestalt game I'm setting up, he'd play a Dimensional Conduit//Dualist. I'm just kind of wondering whether that'd mean the doubles would be Gestalt too, and if so, if they'd be X//Dualists, or X//Ys. :smalleek:

I don't think they would be gestalt at all.


[...]the Dualist's partner advances through the Dualist class at the same rate, though they never gain levels in other classes. [...]

Unless you meant the conduit doubles, in which case... *shrug*

[toapat]

Um... no? I've always tried to avoid bias. Why is the Factotum the only class with Iaijutsu Focus, when the OA Samurai is also in the list (down in T5) as is the Expert? That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who has it as a class skill has it.

As for the idea of making more tiers, someone certainly could... I just always worried that getting too precise would just get confusing. Besides, the point was always "what classes play well together." Yes, some T4s are all around okay while others are specialists, but they all generally play well together without stealing each other's spotlights. That was all that ever mattered to me... helping games play smoothly.

JaronK

1: While the Factotum is considered to have it, its also the only class who can have Iaijutsu Focus which will have more to do then Barbershop the first guy they can get to, using an inspiration point to cast celerity, which neither OA Samurai or Expert can do. the argument is that a 1/encounter ability is more useful then an ability which, with access to the 2 books most obsessed with fixing previously printed classes, can have every problem with it removed (although half of that problem is not solvable in class).

2: The arguments are based on the commentary you used on classes. The entirety of the rogue reasoning drips "Because Factotum". I also acknowledge that the only thing Artificer has is to make magic items to use, and so has to be considered allowed to do that.
3: And you made it read more like a comparison of versatility and power.

@ Morph: The reason i said that is because you dont spend 18 hours digging through all the material that a class might interact with to judge its power.

Also, a 2-axis system wouldnt take long to redo (barring classes that use new spell lists), at least in theory, as it would be inspecting classes in relation to how many different encounters they can participate in, and how good they are in combat.

[JaronK]

1: While the Factotum is considered to have it, its also the only class who can have Iaijutsu Focus which will have more to do then Barbershop the first guy they can get to, using an inspiration point to cast celerity, which neither OA Samurai or Expert can do. the argument is that a 1/encounter ability is more useful then an ability which, with access to the 2 books most obsessed with fixing previously printed classes, can have every problem with it removed (although half of that problem is not solvable in class).

So, how is it bias to say that the Factotum can do it better because it has abilities that let it do it better (usually you just cast Grease, not Celerity, but whatever)? I mean, all three classes can do it, but one's higher ranked in part because it does that much better (in addition to doing lots of other stuff, though do note that Experts and OA Samurai could use a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind to use Sapphire Nightmare Blade and get a second Iaijutsu attack off.).


2: The arguments are based on the commentary you used on classes. The entirety of the rogue reasoning drips "Because Factotum". I also acknowledge that the only thing Artificer has is to make magic items to use, and so has to be considered allowed to do that.

I'm curious, where have I said that? I mean, I've showed comparisons between the two to illustrate the difference between T3 and T4, but I'm curious to know how I implied that the Rogue was in any way placed "Because Factotutm."


3: And you made it read more like a comparison of versatility and power.

Versatility and power are the things that decide who plays together well. If one person is playing "I'm a god who does what I want on a whim" and the other is playing "I hit things with my sword very well" it's not the same game, so they play together poorly. If one is "I hit things with my sword very well" and the other is "I'm versatile enough to handle the other stuff" they play together alright. In the end, it's all subservient to the idea that "Players want to be able to play together, DMs want characters that fit in their campaign ideas." Isn't that what's important?

JaronK

[toapat]

So, how is it bias to say that the Factotum can do it better because it has abilities that let it do it better (usually you just cast Grease, not Celerity, but whatever)? I mean, all three classes can do it, but one's higher ranked in part because it does that much better (in addition to doing lots of other stuff, though do note that Experts and OA Samurai could use a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind to use Sapphire Nightmare Blade and get a second Iaijutsu attack off.).

I'm curious, where have I said that? I mean, I've showed comparisons between the two to illustrate the difference between T3 and T4, but I'm curious to know how I implied that the Rogue was in any way placed "Because Factotutm."

Versatility and power are the things that decide who plays together well. If one person is playing "I'm a god who does what I want on a whim" and the other is playing "I hit things with my sword very well" it's not the same game, so they play together poorly. If one is "I hit things with my sword very well" and the other is "I'm versatile enough to handle the other stuff" they play together alright. In the end, it's all subservient to the idea that "Players want to be able to play together, DMs want characters that fit in their campaign ideas." Isn't that what's important?

JaronK

1: Everything a Factotum has is limited, a Rogue, on the other hand, can do nearly everything they need to be able to do without limit, especially with later material that allows them to take the urban equivalent of HiPS (not wilderness rogue, which sucks), and to bypass critical immunity.

2: your personal argument for why Rogue is not T3 with factotum is simply that Factotum is the only class which actually is between T2+3, that isnt an argument. They also cant steal Penetrating strike either, so they can never redeem sneak attack's most significant problem.

[Grod_The_Giant]

1: Everything a Factotum has is limited, a Rogue, on the other hand, can do nearly everything they need to be able to do without limit, especially with later material that allows them to take the urban equivalent of HiPS (not wilderness rogue, which sucks), and to bypass critical immunity.

That is false. A factotum's abilities give it extra functionality. Name me one thing, besides sneak attack, that rogues do better than a factotum using the same skills. Go ahead. I'll wait.

[Temotei]

2: your personal argument for why Rogue is not T3 with factotum is simply that Factotum is the only class which actually is between T2+3, that isnt an argument. They also cant steal Penetrating strike either, so they can never redeem sneak attack's most significant problem.

There was a whole paragraph on why the rogue is where it's at in JaronK's first post. That wasn't even one of his arguments, let alone his only argument.

[toapat]

That is false. A factotum's abilities give it extra functionality. Name me one thing, besides sneak attack, that rogues do better than a factotum using the same skills. Go ahead. I'll wait.

A factotum can not take 10 on an given skillcheck of their choice without blatantly ignoring the wording of the Rogue's Special abilities class feature. A factotum also can not get bonus feats other then a very small selection found as bonus class features, and even though they can in the end lift the rogue's 10d6 sneak attack, they cant lift Penetrating Attack with it to be competent against precision immune opponents because of the capstone wording.

All their spells, and those Skill Boosts? 1/day.

Rogues can take as a substitution for Imp Uncanny Dodge, Polymorph, 2 levels before the Factotum.

[Threadnaught]

A factotum can not take 10 on an given skillcheck of their choice without blatantly ignoring the wording of the Rogue's Special abilities class feature. A factotum also can not get bonus feats other then a very small selection found as bonus class features, and even though they can in the end lift the rogue's 10d6 sneak attack, they cant lift Penetrating Attack with it to be competent against precision immune opponents because of the capstone wording.

All their spells, and those Skill Boosts? 1/day.

Rogues can take as a substitution for Imp Uncanny Dodge, Polymorph, 2 levels before the Factotum.

The bolded part is important... Either Rogues get infinite Spellcasting, or Full Casters should be Tier 6 because of limited use Class Abilities. According to that statement and that statement alone, a Commoner is better than a Wizard.

Now for the rest, okay Rogues can take 10 while threatened, in the grand scheme of things, what does that matter when the Factotum rolls a 2 and adds his Factotum level (10) to the result? Let's say the Ability modifier is +5 for both, Factotum has rolled 30 vs the Rogue's 28. So the Rogue has finally caught up with the gap the Factotum created and it's still not good enough, a Factotum9 vs Rogue9, both roll a 2 and vwala! Factotum 28, Rogue 19. Level 20 only spreads the gap wide enough for a Xixecal to pass through, Factotum rolls a 2 and ends up with a paltry 51, while the Rogue takes 10 and gets a massive 39.
Why does the Factotum always roll a 2? Well I'm under the impressions that if I said 1 you'd call me out on that being an auto fail, so I went or the lowest number that wasn't 1, while the Rogue is allowed to take 10 starting level 10 because they're both being threatened. Unless use of IF is not allowed while threatened or distracted, the Factotum is always better than the Rogue when using Skills.

[General Patton]

The bolded part is important... Either Rogues get infinite Spellcasting, or Full Casters should be Tier 6 because of limited use Class Abilities. According to that statement and that statement alone, a Commoner is better than a Wizard.

Now for the rest, okay Rogues can take 10 while threatened, in the grand scheme of things, what does that matter when the Factotum rolls a 2 and adds his Factotum level (10) to the result? Let's say the Ability modifier is +5 for both, Factotum has rolled 30 vs the Rogue's 28. So the Rogue has finally caught up with the gap the Factotum created and it's still not good enough, a Factotum9 vs Rogue9, both roll a 2 and vwala! Factotum 28, Rogue 19. Level 20 only spreads the gap wide enough for a Xixecal to pass through, Factotum rolls a 2 and ends up with a paltry 51, while the Rogue takes 10 and gets a massive 39.
Why does the Factotum always roll a 2? Well I'm under the impressions that if I said 1 you'd call me out on that being an auto fail, so I went or the lowest number that wasn't 1, while the Rogue is allowed to take 10 starting level 10 because they're both being threatened. Unless use of IF is not allowed while threatened or distracted, the Factotum is always better than the Rogue when using Skills.

1's are not an auto fail on skill checks, and 20's are not auto successes.

[toapat]

*Snip*

You assume the Teiring DM is more polite then only refraining from making the entire dungeon an Anti/Dead magic zone.

Traps should always have 2 trap boxes, the Sporting one, which is immersed in the convienent Crucible inside the trap, and the employee one, for the end of the kobold shift

and, to compare, at lvl 20, when a Factotum can cast Polymorph once per day, the Rogue can also do that, and the Wizard can do it 4+ Intmod/4 times per day

[TuggyNE]

You assume the Teiring DM is more polite then only refraining from making the entire dungeon an Anti/Dead magic zone.

Really? (Also, it seems to me that most DMs are going to be far more polite than that. The tier system is, I think, not built primarily on the assumption of a truly brutal killer DM.)


and, to compare, at lvl 20, when a Factotum can cast Polymorph once per day, the Rogue can also do that, and the Wizard can do it 4+ Intmod/4 times per day

OK, enlighten me: how does the Rogue cast polymorph from class features? (UMD does not count, since WBL is not a class feature and Factotum also has UMD as a class skill.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Factotums can prepare multiple spells/day. Rogues can only cast through UMD. Factotums can do that top.

[ngilop]

submitting

my Witch Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244811)

my Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263519) 'fix'

and my REDUX Battlemage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13419097)

to the capricious whims of those who judge such things as 'tiers'

[toapat]

OK, enlighten me: how does the Rogue cast polymorph from class features? (UMD does not count, since WBL is not a class feature and Factotum also has UMD as a class skill.)

Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day

[TuggyNE]

Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day

Well played. Are there similar ACFs to grant SLAs for other levels 1-7?

[3WhiteFox3]

Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day

But that's using a specific component from Dragon Magazine material, that's like saying the Commoner can kill anything because of the Chicken Infested flaw. While it is true, the simple fact that it's not something most GMs will allow. Not only is Dragon Magazine often rejected at most tables I've played at, tiers explicitly assume little optimization besides the basic knowledge of the class. A rogue with that substitution level is no longer a basic rogue played by a normal guy; he's something different. Which means that the basic rogue is still outclassed by the basic factotum.

Also, Lunar Rogue gives access to one out of two specific spells, and lets you use it once per day. So while that does allow him some versatility (really, it's a steal compared with Imp. Uncanny Dodge) it still doesn't let him compete with any of the other tricks that the Factotum can do.

I admit that it answers the question of how a rogue would cast Polymorph, it doesn't really matter in any argument, because it can't be fairly compared to the basic factotum because it's adding something not in the core class.

[toapat]

Well played. Are there similar ACFs to grant SLAs for other levels 1-7?

Is there anything other than limited wish that even is nearly as relevant?

and as far as i know, that is the only case of rogue that i know of getting an SLA, even if it is one of the most powerful SLAs in the game.

[TuggyNE]

Is there anything other than limited wish that even is nearly as relevant?

and as far as i know, that is the only case of rogue that i know of getting an SLA, even if it is one of the most powerful SLAs in the game.

It's an ingenious trick, it's reasonably effective, but it's basically the same thing as Iaijutsu Focus: a niche stunt that only some tables will allow and that only makes a fairly small contribution to the overall class tier. Yes, I went there. :P

[Threadnaught]

Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day

As a DM, I'll allow this. Just because of one of the things you said about the Factotum, which the Rogue does better.


All their spells, and those Skill Boosts? 1/day.

All their Spells you said, which indicates that the Factotum has the ability to cast multiple Spells per day. But apparantly Polymorph and Rogues are so powerful, just having Polymorph is better than Polymorph and other Spells.


You assume the Teiring DM is more polite then only refraining from making the entire dungeon an Anti/Dead magic zone.

Traps should always have 2 trap boxes, the Sporting one, which is immersed in the convienent Crucible inside the trap, and the employee one, for the end of the kobold shift

and, to compare, at lvl 20, when a Factotum can cast Polymorph once per day, the Rogue can also do that, and the Wizard can do it 4+ Intmod/4 times per day

I'm having trouble understanding your second and especially your third points here, so I'll refer to them two first. The first point is the most important anyhow.

3: I mentioned level 20 in my comparisant of Skill checks, of course a Wizard can do it multiple times, but they're still limited uses aren't they? BTW we're comparing Factotum vs Rogue, not Wizard, if you want to involve the Wizard, it's Wizard vs Commoner.

2: So that's what then? From what I see, it looks like you're saying all traps should come in fake trap/real trap combos. So what? Does the Employee trap set itself off whenever the Sporting trap is disarmed, instantly killing anyone without Evasion?

1: How about a new style of tiering then? Pay attention, instead of the test being a single dungeon, which just so happens to be a magical deadzone, the entire world is a magical deadzone and chickens attack Spellcasters.
Wizard vs Commoner, Commoner has Chicken Infested and wins. Commoner is Tier 1, or Wizard is Tier 6, I dunno.

I assume the tiering DM does not just take away a character's abilities. So of course the dungeon isn't a complete magical deadzone, of course some deadzone is to be expected. Just as when the Rogue goes through the test, there are traps they love to disarm, Undead they love to fail at Sneak Attacking, a Dragon with Tremorsense, a bunch of other Adventurers they can steal from and backstab and at the end hiding in a magical deadzone is a Commoner with Chicken Infested, come at me with Polyorph bro, my chickens will eat you. :smallamused:

[toapat]

3: I mentioned level 20 in my comparisant of Skill checks, of course a Wizard can do it multiple times, but they're still limited uses aren't they? BTW we're comparing Factotum vs Rogue, not Wizard, if you want to involve the Wizard, it's Wizard vs Commoner.

2: So that's what then? From what I see, it looks like you're saying all traps should come in fake trap/real trap combos. So what? Does the Employee trap set itself off whenever the Sporting trap is disarmed, instantly killing anyone without Evasion?

1: How about a new style of tiering then? Pay attention, instead of the test being a single dungeon, which just so happens to be a magical deadzone, the entire world is a magical deadzone and chickens attack Spellcasters.
Wizard vs Commoner, Commoner has Chicken Infested and wins. Commoner is Tier 1, or Wizard is Tier 6, I dunno.

I assume the tiering DM does not just take away a character's abilities. So of course the dungeon isn't a complete magical deadzone, of course some deadzone is to be expected. Just as when the Rogue goes through the test, there are traps they love to disarm, Undead they love to fail at Sneak Attacking, a Dragon with Tremorsense, a bunch of other Adventurers they can steal from and backstab and at the end hiding in a magical deadzone is a Commoner with Chicken Infested, come at me with Polyorph bro, my chickens will eat you. :smallamused:

Deadmagic is still beaten by the Calling school, so basically the wizard is unaffected. Its only when you start breaking out the Barb/FB half minotaur Minotaurs with Spiked Chain focus and have a maze of Deadmagic, inside a Faraday cage of deadmagic, that you equalize the wizard with others.

No, the kobold Labor Union of Adventuring Fodder has standards, Traps are to built with a safety disable and a standard disable for rogues, that standard disable it to be immersed in lava, in the threatened area of the trap.

The DM is assumed to know every trick for shutting down a class, and will use them willingly. For factotum that simply means repetition. A factotum cant do the same thing twice in a day.

asto your challenge: Polymorph into a Vivacious Dragon of appropriate size. Abuse Flight and Incorporal, have the Penetrating Strike ACF and deal half sneak attack no matter what. Kill them through walls to have no risk of being countered.

[Draken]

Deadmagic is still beaten by the Calling school, so basically the wizard is unaffected. Its only when you start breaking out the Barb/FB half minotaur Minotaurs with Spiked Chain focus and have a maze of Deadmagic, inside a Faraday cage of deadmagic, that you equalize the wizard with others.

No, the kobold Labor Union of Adventuring Fodder has standards, Traps are to built with a safety disable and a standard disable for rogues, that standard disable it to be immersed in lava, in the threatened area of the trap.

The DM is assumed to know every trick for shutting down a class, and will use them willingly. For factotum that simply means repetition. A factotum cant do the same thing twice in a day.

asto your challenge: Polymorph into a Vivacious Dragon of appropriate size. Abuse Flight and Incorporal, have the Penetrating Strike ACF and deal half sneak attack no matter what. Kill them through walls to have no risk of being countered.

Incorporeal creatures temporarily cease existing inside of antimagic or dead magic.

Also, your comment on full and flat antimagic equalizing wizards to everyone else is extreme and erroneous. It equalizes wizards tot he worse of the worse (the commoner), as has been stated.

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Since I finally caved in and posted on this thread, I will ask Morph to tier the evolutionist. Link on my sig.

[toapat]

Also, your comment on full and flat antimagic equalizing wizards to everyone else is extreme and erroneous. It equalizes wizards tot he worse of the worse (the commoner), as has been stated.

Commoners have no good saves, Wizards have good will saves.

Anti-Magic Fields are extremely nerfed in 3.5 though, as they dont even block Line of Effect. the T1 classes can cast in them anyway, if you know what you are doing.

[Draken]

Commoners have no good saves, Wizards have good will saves.

Anti-Magic Fields are extremely nerfed in 3.5 though, as they dont even block Line of Effect. the T1 classes can cast in them anyway, if you know what you are doing.

If by "know what you are doing" means using a 9th level spell (Invoke Magic) as surcharge on every other spellcast or taking a setting specific feat that most people ban (forgot the name of the feat) then yes, AMF is negated. Very briefly. But it remains a very potent effect.

And a good will save has no value in an AMF/DMZ, since, far as I can recall off-hand, there is absolutely nothing that requires will saves that isn't also negated by the AMF/DMZ.

[Threadnaught]

The DM is assumed to know every trick for shutting down a class, and will use them willingly. For factotum that simply means repetition. A factotum cant do the same thing twice in a day.

I present the Factotum with a DMZ and a mindless enemy immune to Sneak Attack. The area has no cover and the ground is covered in Fine objects that cause a great deal of noise when stood on, making sneaking impossible. Also Tremorsense.

I present to your Rogue, an Undead Dragon. To your Polymorph Rogue, I present an Undead Dragon in a DMZ.

I present to your Wizard, the world explodes. While in a DMZ.
Or a DMZ while surrounded by an army of Chicken Infested Commoners with those Caster eating chickens.

I present to your army of every single Class ever... Rocks fall everyone dies.