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Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-22, 08:41 PM
toapat, I really don't know where you're coming from with this idea that factotums can only be good once per day. They have an ability that lets them get their level as a skill bonus once/day/skill, yes. But, apart from the ability to always take 10 (which doesn't come into play until halfway through the game, mind), they're just as good as a rogue at any skill they chose to specialize in.

The rogue's 1/day polymorph is strictly inferior to the factotum's casting, since he can prepare polymorph and any other spells he wants without a spellbook.

In other news, why are we arguing about how to totally neutralize a class? It's pretty moot, since such extreme circumstances are never, ever going to come up in a game with playing-- and if they do for more than a scene, walk away, because that's a DM on a power trip from the abyss.

Draken
2012-12-22, 09:08 PM
Also, one thing about the factotum's impromptu spellcasting. They don't have one spell of each level per day. They have a limited number of spell slots and prepare all of their spells with that pool, regardless of level, much like how martial initiators ready their maneuvers. The limitation that the factotum has, in this system, is that he can only prepare one copy of his highest level spell avaiable. So as soon as he can cast 5th level spells, he can fill all of his daily alotment with polymorph if he wants to.

Morph Bark
2012-12-22, 10:05 PM
So let's take a turn away from the argument and Factotums, Rogues, Ninjas, Swordsages and... wait, we weren't even talking about that. That does bring me around closer to something I want to talk about though: not ToB. Or, more specifically, Fighters.

Even more specifically, not-Fighters that are still Fighters. More correctly, I'm talking about Fighter Fixes. I've already Tiered two so far, one of which is sitting neatly in High Tier 3 (by Ernir, the Fighter Incarnate), the other being the only Tier 1 Fix so far (Ziegander's Fightificer).

So I thought I might as well go all-out on a specific subject again and tackle Fighters as a whole. Fighters clearly are a beloved subject around the forums, partly because they are one of the four staple classes (not just in DnD, but in any media that defines abilities through a class system, such as tons of other RPGs), partly because of the image of a heroic warrior having immortal appeal to people and partly because they are so goshdarned weak in DnD itself, thus making it a prime target for homebrew fixes and the cause of "Fighter Fridays" threads (after Monk Mondays, ToB Tuesdays, Wizard Wednesdays and Third-Party Thursdays). Heck, we've even had a Fighter Manifesto (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149854) to explain the big issues, the whys and the need to figure out some hows.

ToB?
Let us begin with one of the things many Fighter Fixers do: as illustrated by Fax Celestis' example (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update), many people simply give the Fighter a maneuver progression like the ToB classes. This stems from the fact that ToB makes combat a lot nicer for melee characters, due to providing many more options, though critics of the system crack down on it for being "too much like spellcasting" (luckily they've largely stopped using the "it's too anime" argument, because it's both a bull**** argument and flavour is muteable). Many even regard the Warblade as "the official Fighter Fix", and while I certainly agree that the Warblade is a class that is better made than the Fighter and have often seen it in my campaigns, it is such a large departure from the Fighter that I certainly can't really call it a Fix. It's more like the replacement of rotor engine fighter planes by jet-powered ones. Same goal, widely different execution, which incidentally results in one overshadowing the other with ease at any level. Certainly, at level 1 the ToB classes are even the strongest around and this remains that way for levels 2-4 as it slowly begins to even out, doing so at level 6 (5 for some casters).

On the same hand, but a different finger, there are also apparently people who use ToB, but refuse to acknowledge it apparently, as shown by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216996) Fighter Fix. Not only did he use ToB material without outright saying so (even though to anyone who's read through ToB would recognize it anyway), he copied the official material over, which for most stuff is a big no-no here, and to top it off the class features are prettymuch only feats. That's it. That's bad design, folks, even if you use good material.

Tons of feats?
Some Fighter Fixes use ToB material, but to a lesser degree, such as Seerow's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178361) (and Eyeless Blonde's, Otto the Bugbear's, OW4ngel's, Lord Pendragon's, etc). This one only utilizes the stance mechanic from ToB, and invents some of its own that are Fighter-specific. The amount learned, however, is perhaps a tiny bit more limited than that of ToB classes. Aside from that, the major change this Fighter Fix shows is one that is a pretty rookie mistake amongst Fighter Fixes: that of simply granting more feats. There are several new feats which are very nifty, but things are made a lot more complicated by the Styles mechanic, essentially granting 32(!) feats total, three times as many feats as a normal Fighter over the course of its career. Three times. The worst part is that you can't use them all at the same time and cannot be used to qualify for one another, unless they're in the same "style path". While interesting, this is way too complicated when used with feats and would've been much better as an actual class ability with several style branches to get into. Overall, it does raise the Fighter's Tier to 4, but I wouldn't recommend its use due to its complexity. This Fighter Fix does have one thing really going for it though, and that's the Warrior's Focus ability and the special abilities it grants. Some are quite nice and the concept is fitting for a seasoned veteran of battle.

Then up comes Deepbluediver's Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228850), which offers not quite as many feats as the above class, but still one every level. The other class features extra are just improvements on weapon-wielding and armor-wearing, with a minor battlecry ability that matters little in the overall scheme of things, or even just combat alone.

Styles!
We continue on to the next one, made by Solaris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130030). This Fighter Fix has something similar in flavour to the Styles mechanic of the previous Fix, but with a huge difference in execution, as it doesn't rely on feats. The mechanics are simple and easy to use, but have a one-track mind (pun intended). This isn't bad, as the only thing the Fighter trades out for it is the first level feat, while gaining some little extra stuff, which is enough to life him that tiny bit to make it to Tier 4. The only big bad thing that jumps out at me is that the Dual-Wielding track grants nothing in the way of attack bonuses, which can result in a "flurry of misses" kind of deal.

NeoSeraphi's Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209757) does something similar, but the class shuns other class features as a result, apparently, which is a shame, as it results in a class that is somewhat empty and doesn't get a raise in Tier.

GunbladeKnight's Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244599) does the same, though the class features are different and there are no dead levels.

Our next candidate, made by Grod_The_Giant, is boisterously called the Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242782), so it's sort of debateable whether it's a Fighter Fix, but since this one was listed in Kane0's Commonly Corrected Classes Compendium, I figure Grod himself at least views it as one (the thread's title may also be a hint). It has a very strong chassis and, like the previous class, uses a kind of twist on the fighting styles idea. Sadly, this ability is only halfway finished, but the basics clearly show that this class can be built many different ways to suit different kinds of characters. The big thing about the class though, are the Tactics and the Deeds. Tactics are modifications of the Unstoppable Strike ability, just waiting for an Immovable Object to aim at. The Tactics don't scale well, but are very good at the level they're gained at. Deeds, however, are an even bigger thing. The Legend gets more of them, and while they may not make him better at fighting, they increase his versatility a lot, making the class combine both power and versatility at good amounts to make it sit square in Tier 3, or even High Tier 3.

Grod also made another Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12460617&postcount=2), but looking through it, I can definitely say I prefer the Legend. The Legend is also more recent, so Grod probably learned from this attempt. In essence, it grants the Fighter tons more attacks and makes him count as several sizes larger for combat maneuvers, as well as somehow featuring Intelligence as an important ability score for some things, but in weird ways. By the end, it gets ridiculously over the top in amount of attacks, while counting as Colossal, but not much else, making it a great class for dishing out damage (DR also doesn't affect their attacks after a certain level) and trippy crowd control, but not really anything else. This would fall into that "Powerful/Broken Tier 4" Tier I mentioned earlier.

Now for something a little different. In the beginning I linked the so-called Fighter Manifesto. This guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241661), Lemmy, took it to heart and made a Fighter Fix, attempting to stick to all the things mentioned in the Fighter Manifesto, and get rid of that. While he did a pretty good job at manhandling the Fighter, he only made the Fighter into the best darn Fighting Fighter that ever Fighted1. The numbers basically go up is all, the bonus feats are still the same. The Fighter certainly improves from needing less different kinds of weapons to bypass DR, is very good at wearing armor and wielding a sword, but... that's it, isn't it? Well that's when we get to Fighting Prowess. Fighting Prowess is similar to the Legend's Tactics and Deeds, taken together. The Fighter gets 9 of them and there are a lot of options. Frankly, that's one thing I personally don't like, actually. I do like options, but when you consider Fighting Prowess, all those bonus feats and then the rest of the class features on top, it's just so much. This one definitely gets into Borderline Tier 3-4, and it has stuff I like, but... just but. I guess I'm just picky in my tastes. Objectively, it's still pretty good, but he might as well just have gotten rid of the bonus feats.

At this point, since I've gone into a class with a lot of stuff to read already anyway, I should probably go into the Fighter Fix offered by Realms_of_Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278), but considering the time and my state of fatigue, I'll save that for later.

Since I mentioned Kane0's quadruple-C-titled thread earlier, it would be a shame not to include any of his work, no? That's where the Legionnaire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12666406) comes in. Good at group fighting, but sadly this is the only thing they do well at all, with the rest of the class abilities being a bit of a grab bag and not enough sturdy filling. Group fighting is also less worthwhile with other PCs unless you really built the characters for it and planned it from the beginning, making it much more of an NPC class than a PC one.


Obviously there are many more Fighter Fixes out there, but those will have to wait for another time. You can await some big fixers and a pair of new ones to get a look over and see how they hold up amongst the crowd.


1fought.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-22, 10:18 PM
Grod also made another Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12460617&postcount=2), but looking through it, I can definitely say I prefer the Legend. The Legend is also more recent, so Grod probably learned from this attempt. In essence, it grants the Fighter tons more attacks and makes him count as several sizes larger for combat maneuvers, as well as somehow featuring Intelligence as an important ability score for some things, but in weird ways. By the end, it gets ridiculously over the top in amount of attacks, while counting as Colossal, but not much else, making it a great class for dishing out damage (DR also doesn't affect their attacks after a certain level) and trippy crowd control, but not really anything else. This would fall into that "Powerful/Broken Tier 4" Tier I mentioned earlier.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that one-- too much an attempt to make a good fighter while staying within the "crappy mundane" fighter limits. The "X of Battle" abilities need to be about ignoring size differences, not just counting as being bigger, My Blade is my Brother probably could be ditched, and Lord/Tyrant of Blades toned down. You didn't mention the feat retraining stuff, though, which I still kind of like, but makes the class really complicated to play. (Capstone: retrain [Int Mod] fighter bonus feats as a free action 1/round).

I have a newer fix I like better (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13847478#post13847478). (I linked to the things of mine that I considered "good" in an earlier post, but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle)

Morph Bark
2012-12-23, 04:48 PM
I have a newer fix I like better (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13847478#post13847478).

The Talent dice at level 10 seems like it should be 5d6, or am I wrong in that assumption? Talent dice recovery also has two different things stated: at one point you say the Fighter gets them at the start of every encounter, at another that they recover at a rate of one die every (10 - key ability modifier). A new encounter is effectively after 5 minutes of rest and then going at it again, so that is rather contradictory there. I do like the concept, though at higher levels its likely open to some light abuse. At the very least it makes them very strong at the things they can use Talent dice for. The Battle Style and Rapid Inspiration abilities seem slightly better on the Tactician side. The Leader Perfect Tactics seem rather weak for the level you get them at. The rest is all perfectly fine. I'd call it Borderline Tier 3-4.


Styles! Redux; and Being Other Fighters
Let's pedal back for a moment. So far, solutions people have used to make their Fighter Fixes have been to throw in more feats, make them use Tome of Battle material or utlize some form of fighting style in a variety of different (but often very, very similar) ways. Our next Fighter Fix is by jiriku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194834), and it also utilizes the concept of a Fighter with a fighting style of choice. However, he handles this differently from the previous ones, as the choice is pretty basic (though this is the same with prior Fighter Fixes), but you can build on it with the bonus feats, thus tying the bonus feats into the other abilities of the Fighter much, much more. As an added bonus, the Style feats are much stronger than normal feats, on par with actual class abilities, and many of them scale. Not only makes this the Fighter more powerful, it also grants him more options, quite possibly enough to make him Tier 3. What's more, is that this Fighter Fix has several ACFs that effectively make this Fix capable of replacing most other melee-oriented official classes as well, and even includes a Mage Slayer style ACF! Overall, pretty nifty.

Something else that is also distinguishing about this Fighter Fix is that it shows signs of being a leader, due to having access to auras. These are similar to the Marshal's (well, rather, being shamelessly cribbed from it), making the Fighter gain some commanding presence over time. This isn't much, and in a party that plans on covering all the roles certainly won't help more than one other party member, maybe, but it's a little something and expands the Fighter's horizons.

Milov3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14411113) does something similar to jiriku, covering an even greater number of base classes with possible fighting styles for the Fighter as alternatives to those classes, though they're somewhat simpler and bonus feats aren't tied to them as with the previous example Fix. Rushed Action is one of its strongest abilities, but then again it comes online at level 17, and Evershifting Style as well. For that matter, there are quite a lot of Fighter Fixes that use a kind of "style" type deal that gain the ability to freely switch to another at high level, aren't there? What logic does this flow out of, anyway? Studying judo for years won't somehow make me good at archery. This is, of course, not a gripe I have specific to Milov3's Fix, but all Fixes that have this. It might be nice to sample the other things a class has to offer, but without any buildup to that, it makes no sense to throw in an ability like that. It's basically saying "frag it, I got no clue what else to give this dude", or giving a prepared caster the ability to become a spontaneous one, using everything in his spellbook (or equivalent) as spells known. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Now you know how my brain feels when I come across a Fighter with such an ability. Or any class for that matter. (PrCs I allow some leniency.)

Then we have another can-cover-other-classes-too-somewhat Fighter Fix, as awkwardly presented by nonsi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242257). To be honest, I thought it'd be bigger. Then when I read through it, it took me as long as the others due to the fact that most of the class abilities themselves don't say when you get them, so you have to check with the table again. Warcraft is essentially "take a class feature from a non-Fighter fighting class, or get another bonus feat". It's basically another kind of quick-and-dirty fix, the former which is lazy and unoriginal, the latter which is both those and just doesn't work. Combat Focus is one of the better things about this Fix, though fluffwise it seems like this is similar to rage, in a way, which this Fix can also get. Seems weird to see that in combo. Warrior Talent has a few nice ones, but it's nothing major. Overall, it's... it's kind of a Fighter Fix, I guess? I mean, while nonsi attempted to stick to the things mentioned in D&D Next list of "things a Fighter should be", that list is incredibly vague and more fluffy than crunchy, not being of real substance. He did provide a link to a Fighter Handbook that goes into ways to optimize a Fighter through their feats, but using that with this Fix won't really make this go anything beyond the standard Fighter by much. In the thread nonsi appears to claim Combat Focus should raise the Fix to Tier 3, but the things that really do that it gets very late in its level progression, while they would be overpowered if gained earlier.

Finally (for now), there's a recent, quick-and-dirty Fix by ngilop (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263519) (how the fight do you pronounce that?), which very clearly is supposed to make the Fighter more of a tank: the take of hits. Interpose is incredibly good, Shrug Off Punishment is incredibly weak, Unmoveable doesn't mention what bonus it gives, Thick Skinned is very nice that early on, and I will stop there because those were the major things at the early levels and the late levels don't give much unique or anything significant at that level (besides Heroic Action, oh my). Overall, the class still suffers from having a one-track mind and mostly still offering bigger numbers (especially in the amount of AoOs that the Fighter can't even use without Combat Reflexes and high Dex) and otherwise being the same as a normal Fighter and his feats. Granted, at least ngilop's intro was honest: it's quick, and it's dirty.

Part 3 to come, where I will reel in Minmaxboards'/BG's Fixes and see how they compare.

Zman
2012-12-23, 05:04 PM
Your examination of the Fighter Fixes out there inspired me to give my own a go.

Its a basic fix meant to add versatility and options to the fighter without simply scaling the numbers. Its meant to bring the Fighter up to a solid Tier 4.

Here it is Zman's Fighter Fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14422338#post14422338)

Roland St. Jude
2012-12-23, 05:19 PM
Sheriff: Please take the general discussion about the validity of the tier system to the D&D 3.5 subforum. There must be an active thread on the issue there, but if not, please start one. This thread is not the place for that discussion.

Milo v3
2012-12-23, 05:26 PM
Styles! Redux; and Being Other Fighters
Milov3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14411113) does something similar to jiriku, covering an even greater number of base classes with possible fighting styles for the Fighter as alternatives to those classes, though they're somewhat simpler and bonus feats aren't tied to them as with the previous example Fix. Rushed Action is one of its strongest abilities, but then again it comes online at level 17, and Evershifting Style as well. For that matter, there are quite a lot of Fighter Fixes that use a kind of "style" type deal that gain the ability to freely switch to another at high level, aren't there? What logic does this flow out of, anyway? Studying judo for years won't somehow make me good at archery. This is, of course, not a gripe I have specific to Milov3's Fix, but all Fixes that have this. It might be nice to sample the other things a class has to offer, but without any buildup to that, it makes no sense to throw in an ability like that. It's basically saying "frag it, I got no clue what else to give this dude", or giving a prepared caster the ability to become a spontaneous one, using everything in his spellbook (or equivalent) as spells known. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Now you know how my brain feels when I come across a Fighter with such an ability. Or any class for that matter. (PrCs I allow some leniency.)

You don't get to swap to any of the Styles. You can only swamp between the styles you possess. Lets use the martial art example, at level two you might pick artful duelist style which means you focus yourself on precise timing, then in following levels you pick dervish so that you can move around the battle without provoking attacks of oppertunity.

When you choice to swap between the two you aren't immediately mastering something you've never tried before you are changing your focus in combat from a deflecting attacks with your hands to focusing on your mobility, unless for some reason you randomly chose a style which you've never used like Deadly Sniper.

Also, the ability to swap between the styles in battle isn't given as I didn't know what to give the fighter. Its so you can change your style in battle if you want to change battle tactics.

Morph Bark
2012-12-23, 06:37 PM
You don't get to swap to any of the Styles. You can only swamp between the styles you possess.

Ahh. Forgive me, I missed the "knows" in there. Yes, that does make it better, considering there is plenty of lead-up to that. One suggestion though: perhaps you should put in the table how manieth the Fighting Tradition it is you gain at a certain level, so you can easily see how many you can have from that level onwards.

But yes, it's one of the better ones and has some combat versatility thanks to Fighting Tradition. It still has very little outside of combat though.


Your examination of the Fighter Fixes out there inspired me to give my own a go.

Its a basic fix meant to add versatility and options to the fighter without simply scaling the numbers. Its meant to bring the Fighter up to a solid Tier 4.

Here it is Zman's Fighter Fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14422338#post14422338)

Nice to know I inspired someone. :smallsmile:

For the purposes of this current Fighter Fix examination, I won't give an in-depth look into yours though, partially because I've gotten past the GitP portion of it and partially because I have a strict rule about not examining something until at least a week after posting, to make sure the poster has given it a second look-over themselves and likely has gotten some comments and critique already. I will investigate your Fix later.

Hanuman
2012-12-23, 06:39 PM
Ozodrin (By Owrtho)
Evolutionist (By Draken)
Gramarie (By Kellus)

My 3 favorites, none of them listed.

Milo v3
2012-12-23, 07:06 PM
Ahh. Forgive me, I missed the "knows" in there. Yes, that does make it better, considering there is plenty of lead-up to that. One suggestion though: perhaps you should put in the table how manieth the Fighting Tradition it is you gain at a certain level, so you can easily see how many you can have from that level onwards.

But yes, it's one of the better ones and has some combat versatility thanks to Fighting Tradition. It still has very little outside of combat though.


Added a table which shows how many traditions you know at each level.

T.G. Oskar
2012-12-23, 07:30 PM
Morph, since you're right now handling all the multitude of Fighter fixes, does that mean you'll do the same to another favored target of aspiring 'brewers (that being the Monk)? I distinctly recall a mild compromise to tackle the Retooled Monk v2.0, and doing it in the scope of all other Monk fixes would be interesting. It might also imply the Paladin will also see a light, being the third most commonly fixed class.

Eldan
2012-12-23, 07:55 PM
Morph should do wizard fixes next. Maybe start on page one of this thread and do the one someone posted there. *hint hint, wink wink*

:smalltongue:

Threadnaught
2012-12-23, 07:58 PM
Ozodrin (By Owrtho)
Evolutionist (By Draken)
Gramarie (By Kellus)

My 3 favorites, none of them listed.

Draken has just presented the Evolutionist for Tiering. I do wonder how an Ozodrin would do, wondered for a while.

Amechra
2012-12-23, 08:34 PM
You know, you can review my Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255942) fix...

I didn't go any of the ordinary paths, I don't think...

toapat
2012-12-24, 03:06 PM
I beat the trend of doing fighter fixes, and have had mine for a while (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13289004&postcount=1).

I did a different take on the problem.

Morph Bark
2012-12-25, 05:00 AM
Christmas has arrived, so the next bits on Fighter Fixes will have to wait a while.


Morph, since you're right now handling all the multitude of Fighter fixes, does that mean you'll do the same to another favored target of aspiring 'brewers (that being the Monk)?

I very well might, and at least will consider it. However, while I try to be objective in the Tiering of a class, I'm very much subjective in picking what to Tier. Generally, Fixes aren't really my thing (hence why there haven't been that many Tiered yet, despite there being so many), largely because it's much of the same. Considering Monks, I'll probably tackle them all together someday (though I will first have to gone through some more martial arts training, but I've got that planned for 2013 anyway!). Likely though, it won't be so soon.

I've sorta-kinda already decided on the next two or three special features, so those will be first in line. At least one of them is a prominent homebrewer, and another is a very big and controversial project. Stay tuned!

In the meantime, a merry Christmas* to all!

*And if you don't celebrate Christmas, may your days be merry anyway!

nonsi
2012-12-26, 08:48 AM
Then we have another can-cover-other-classes-too-somewhat Fighter Fix, as awkwardly presented by nonsi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242257).

Let’s examine the “awkwardly presented” issue.




To be honest, I thought it'd be bigger. Then when I read through it, it took me as long as the others due to the fact that most of the class abilities themselves don't say when you get them, so you have to check with the table again.

Ok, noted to add level association inside all descriptions.




Warcraft is essentially "take a class feature from a non-Fighter fighting class, or get another bonus feat". It's basically another kind of quick-and-dirty fix, the former which is lazy and unoriginal, the latter which is both those and just doesn't work.

What do you mean by “former” and “latter”?
My reading comprehension is considered quite decent, but I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.
Also, “quick-and-dirty” is the last thing you could say about Warcraft. I put a lot of thought about appropriate levels and desired modifications. whatever's not mentioned is to be taken from the official descriptions. that's not laziness - that's avoiding overtaxing the eyes with already known details.
As for “unoriginal” – hey, if it’s working, why not use it?




Combat Focus is one of the better things about this Fix, though fluffwise it seems like this is similar to rage, in a way, which this Fix can also get. Seems weird to see that in combo.

In concept, Combat Focus is not even remotely tied to Rage.
It does not involve anger or inner conviction.
On the contrary. It involves coolheadedness, battlefield awareness and combat wisdom.
It has two aspects: one of vigilance, the other of superior offense.
While the two are not mutually exclusive, they're not tied either.




Warrior Talent has a few nice ones, but it's nothing major.

No way you read this one correct if that’s your conclusion.




Overall, it's... it's kind of a Fighter Fix, I guess? I mean, while nonsi attempted to stick to the things mentioned in D&D Next list of "things a Fighter should be", that list is incredibly vague and more fluffy than crunchy, not being of real substance.

That list conveys a certain feel that I believe I’ve managed to convey,




He did provide a link to a Fighter Handbook that goes into ways to optimize a Fighter through their feats, but using that with this Fix won't really make this go anything beyond the standard Fighter by much.

Ok… so as to not hog this thread, please take this to my Warrior thread and show me how my proposed class fails in any way to address the Fighter’s issues (break it down to level-by-level if you feel like it)




In the thread nonsi appears to claim Combat Focus should raise the Fix to Tier 3, but the things that really do that it gets very late in its level progression, while they would be overpowered if gained earlier.

1. … Combat Focus along with all other features (Warcraft, feats, talents, skills…).
2. Regarding the bolded text – I’m always open to to explanations and suggestions. By all means.

jiriku
2012-12-29, 11:18 PM
I've been Tiered! This is a nice Christmas present.

I do have some other classes to present. If you're pressed for time and need to prioritize, I'd recommend the following as the most interesting and/or useful:


Magus of Blades (new class)
Soulcrafter (soulknife fix)
Summoner (new class or sorcerer/wizard fix)
Monk Remix (monk fix)
Knight-Paladin (knight fix, paladin fix)

Milo v3
2012-12-30, 12:18 AM
My fix wasn't really tiered, all you did was mention it as an example for Fighter fixes with archetypes.

Vaynor
2012-12-30, 01:31 AM
Hey, this is a cool thread! Would you mind tiering these two classes I made? It'd be much appreciated. :smallsmile:

Cerebral Stalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139817)
Shifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151910)

Morph Bark
2013-01-07, 03:02 PM
So, clearly I haven't been up to business in this thread this year so far yet, since Christmas even actually, and that is because through the holiday and after it I've gotten occupied with a good few other things that require my attention, so I won't be up to it to do the rest of the big Fighter Fix thing anytime soon. I was going to do a handful of Minmaxboards' fixes, then some of the King of Fighter Fixes', then maybe some I missed, then follow up with a conclusion maybe, though that last bit would come too close to attempting a Fix myself and that's entirely not my thing.

Considering I'm currently working on artifacts for my campaign setting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14488442) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14487527), my first thought was "let's just throw some artifacts at those Fighters and let them fix themselves with those", but obviously that wouldn't work. :smalltongue:

In the meantime, you can check out this small list of Fighter Fixes I'd forgotten, though there are many, many more Fighter Fixes out there, and they just... they're just too numerous! I can't list them all or go in depth about them all!

Fax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44664)
ErrantX (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3577329#post3577329)
Chambers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161103)
Realms of Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278)
Amechra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255942)

At any rate, I'll be continuing on with Tiering at it's previous, easy pace and will tackle some of the other requests that may have popped up here or there. Onwards!


Ok… so as to not hog this thread, please take this to my Warrior thread and show me how my proposed class fails in any way to address the Fighter’s issues (break it down to level-by-level if you feel like it)

I could attempt to address these points if it wouldn't be thread necromancy, so that'd have to be fixed the usual way.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-07, 04:02 PM
So Morph, I thought I'd let you know - I finally started on Harrowed 5.0.

You folks will get a link the moment it's done.

Serpentine
2013-01-11, 06:32 AM
The Druids and the Animorph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171732)*


*Aberrant is in post #44, Animorph is in #2

Serpentine, were any changes made to the Animorph when you added it to that thread, or is the animorph's standalone thread still current?I'm pretty sure the stuff in the standalone thread is all up to date.
Sorry about that, guys. The Animorph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140194) stuff, which I expect to be put under "variant" because it depends so much on what morph options are available or sought out.
Magma and Plant Druids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9539570&postcount=1), Aberrant Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11680156&postcount=44).

Morph Bark
2013-01-23, 08:50 AM
I've been thinking of expanding the subsystems bit with lists of PrCs made for specific subsystems. Not including those made for spellcasters (aside from homebrew systems, such as spellshaping) and psionics, but including ToB, incarnum, binding, shadowcasting and truenaming, and of course, primarily, homebrew subsystems. What do you guys think?

Of course, considering how PrCs are much more common, and considering they're meant to only be a small part of this, I wouldn't be so much Tiering them as judging general quality (if belonging to official subsystems) or simply including them on the list if made for a homebrew subsystem or homebrew class (I know the Ozodrin has tons of them, and yes, I'm gonna Tier it).

Lix Lorn
2013-01-23, 11:53 AM
Ozodrin ... yes, I'm gonna Tier it).
You realise no-one cares about the rest of that post now, right? :smalltongue:

More seriously, that sounds like it makes sense to me!

DracoDei
2013-01-23, 04:56 PM
I've been thinking of expanding the subsystems bit with lists of PrCs made for specific subsystems. Not including those made for spellcasters (aside from homebrew systems, such as spellshaping) and psionics, but including ToB, incarnum, binding, shadowcasting and truenaming, and of course, primarily, homebrew subsystems. What do you guys think?
As long as you don';t spread yourself too thin.

Morph Bark
2013-01-24, 12:57 PM
You realise no-one cares about the rest of that post now, right? :smalltongue:

More seriously, that sounds like it makes sense to me!

I'm hoping some people at least will link me to those Ozodrin PrCs, because they're quite spread out from what I remember.

Mostly I'm afraid to do ToB PrCs, as there are so. Darn. Many.

(Hence the restating of quality control.)


As long as you don';t spread yourself too thin.

You can't spread too thin that which is of infinite thickness!

...wait.


Also added PairO'Dice Lost's Divine Champion to Tier 3.

Jormengand
2013-01-24, 01:30 PM
Hmm... had an idea for a class based on a cross between a space marine dreadnaught and a cyborg, and thinking of giving him lots of abilities which work in a similar manner to spells, and represent the systems in the machine. The trouble is, if they're (Ex) it could easily make the class a Tier -1 whenever there's an antimagic field handy, ready to fight that beholder mage without breaking a sweat. If they're (Su), it won't be able to cope with wizards and psychic warriors, or even sorcerers or inquisitors.

Suggestions?

sirpercival
2013-01-24, 03:47 PM
Hey Morph, wanna tier the Ætherforge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255723)? I'm guessing mid-high tier 3, or possibly tier 2 depending on what you consider "game-breaking" :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2013-01-24, 04:07 PM
I'm hoping some people at least will link me to those Ozodrin PrCs, because they're quite spread out from what I remember.
I belieeeeve there's a compilation post somewhere. I think he links it in one of the (many) OPs.

Vauron
2013-01-24, 07:16 PM
I'm hoping some people at least will link me to those Ozodrin PrCs, because they're quite spread out from what I remember.


Ask, and ye shall recieve. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172358)

Morph Bark
2013-01-26, 11:39 AM
Suggestions?

None that come to mind right now, sadly.


Hey Morph, wanna tier the Ætherforge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255723)? I'm guessing mid-high tier 3, or possibly tier 2 depending on what you consider "game-breaking" :smallbiggrin:

I'll give it a shot. Might be a little while though, as this weekend I'll be occupied.


I belieeeeve there's a compilation post somewhere. I think he links it in one of the (many) OPs.

Ask, and ye shall recieve. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172358)

Why look at that! Thank you!

lunar2
2013-01-26, 12:07 PM
Morph, you think you could take a look at my sage?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266930

Korney
2013-01-26, 10:15 PM
I know you are already tired of Fighter Fixes, but I tried to follow your advices and made changes to it, I would like your opinion again, and if anyone can give me better wording I would appreciate it. English is not my main language and I'm not good at it.


By definition adding more stuff to the Fighter makes it better than a normal Fighter, but it does not necessarily up its Tier (which I look for in Fixes, or lowering of its Tier if the official class equivalent's Tier is 1 or 2). I like Stand Strong, but Keep Fighting sounds detrimental, since it kicks in while you may not even be dead yet (between -1 and -9) or you might lose a magic item that is more expensive than the cost to resurrect you.

Shield Ally: do you mean no save, rather than no salvation? No salvation is pretty harsh!

Taunt: kind of vague and uses different rules from the normal Intimidate rules.

Hold the Position: is the +5 to AC instead of, or in addition to to the normal bonus from fighting defensively?

Overall, I don't think it goes up a Tier.* The first seven levels have nothing that really improves the Fighter's abilities other than straight numbers (and while Experienced Fighter does help and is good, straight numbers alone don't do it, and it's very dependant on feat choice). The last ten levels give some options that could be nifty, but need some more working out and better wording. Giving some abilities like those at earlier levels (but lesser versions of the same abilities, or move those abilities to earlier levels and give them upgrades you can choose) would certainly help.

*This is presuming the Fighter to be Tier 4-5. A Fighter can be Tier 4 with the right feat choice, but so can your Fighter for the same reasons. If you pick feats that make a Fighter character Tier 5, the same choices won't improve him to Tier 4 with the abilities you give the class. The ideas you have are good, but they need more working out and improvement. Expand on them a little more to be less basic and you're off in a good direction. :smallsmile:


Here is it again. Korney's Fighter Fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14212791)

IMPORTANT: Don't haste to do this, I know I'm selfish for asking you to lose your time at this. If you don't feel like it, just say so. I will understand it. :smallredface:


Also, I have an idea for a homebrew that goes arround awakening latent golem powers and/or crafting and improving a golem armor. Something arround Dragon Disciples but with Incarnated Construct blood.
You guys are the ones that most homebrew have seen. Is there anything like this already? I can only find a class about a psychic armor and one about making yourself a warforged.

sengmeng
2013-01-26, 10:56 PM
I've been tiered! And I have the honor of creating the first tier 6! With the Gamechanger tag no less.

nonsi
2013-01-27, 06:51 AM
I could attempt to address these points if it wouldn't be thread necromancy, so that'd have to be fixed the usual way.


No longer an issue.
The thread has been revived (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242257) by the OP (yours truly).

Gnomes2169
2013-02-02, 07:37 PM
Hmmm... so since this thread has been revived, can I throw one of my classes in here to be tiered?

Jormengand
2013-02-02, 07:46 PM
If this could be tiered? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269287)

Gnomes2169
2013-02-03, 09:51 PM
I'm just guessing that tiering is now available... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268605)

Threadnaught
2013-02-04, 09:03 AM
I'm hoping some people at least will link me to those Ozodrin PrCs, because they're quite spread out from what I remember.

Silly Morph Bark, there's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172358) to them all in the first post of the Ozodrin thread. Silly Morph Bark. :smalltongue:

danzibr
2013-02-17, 01:19 PM
Hey Morph, love the new avatar.

Anyway, yesterday I popped a samurai on 'roids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14724273#post14724273) out. Mind tiering it? It's a little janky. Throwing an ass ton of feats at it with some fear effects, but hopefully high tier 4.

Sho
2013-02-17, 04:48 PM
I realize my class has only been posted within a week, but I am curious how you would tier my base class blackguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270363).

ngilop
2013-03-14, 01:15 AM
Hello I would love for my version of the Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14851428#post14851428) to be 'tiered'

I was aiming for something closer to 'tier' 3 than what the base class was.

Amechra
2013-03-14, 04:49 AM
This Monk-like (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275306) class would like tiering.

Mithril Leaf
2013-03-30, 09:16 PM
How exciting, I get to ask you to tier my first base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277806)! I'm thinking high 4 to mid 3.

abcd_z
2013-04-21, 03:32 AM
Here's a Tier 3 fix for Paladins that seems like it should go on the list.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730

Morph Bark
2013-08-11, 09:53 AM
Tier 3
Dark Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295674)
Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228784)
Kensei of the Five Rings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12041518)


Borderline Tier 3-4
Arbiter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12154375)


Tier 4
Emblem Laguz/Taguel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295834)


To be added to the full list later. I've been out of this for a while, and got something big coming up in the next two days, so explanations will follow later.

toapat
2013-08-11, 10:10 AM
its nice to see that this is picking up a small bit of steam again.

Temotei
2013-08-11, 12:46 PM
Indeed. I look forward to the tiering of the contests. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2013-08-11, 02:45 PM
Ha, I was just using this thread yesterday. xD

(goes to make more work for you write new class)

Morph Bark
2013-08-13, 06:10 PM
Well now, I believe I promised an explanation with regards to the slowness, which in turn requires a brief telling of my exploits in the last few months. The spoiler contains a long-winded personal story, so you can just skip it.

As I told roughly a year ago in this very thread, I quit my double major Philosophy and Psychology at the university back then, freeing up much of my time for this and other projects, as I decided to just work my job for a year 'til I found a new studies to devote myself to. Sadly, I lost my job a month later, with my contract not being renewed for an indeterminate amount of time (after 3 one-year contracts, an indeterminate time contract is required by law, so no renewing is common). The job search was tough, but I enjoyed the freedom at first, playing games, even doing chores. I was even dating someone for a few months and quite content with the whole situation. As time went on and even after literally dozens upon dozens of job applications turned out to nothing, my mood changed though. Bored, grumpy, apathetic. I even started to think "this is what retired people must feel like". It was quite different from my normal self, as I tend to be the most positive person in a group.

It got a little better when in February I started on a job helping kids with homework and training for exams in Physics and Chemistry (I also applied for English and History, but kids requiring help with those lived too far away from me, making me too expensive for the company for that). I had the job for only once a week for a few months, but it was pleasant, and as I was visiting schools to see which I might attend for my further education, I began to consider studying to become a teacher. I'd prefer for History or English, because there's so many ways to teach that and I love the subjects, but there are way too many applicants for those, and the job market too limited, whilst for Physics and Chemistry I'd be prettymuch guaranteed a job right away.

That was when my mother brought up something that I hadn't thought about in years: air traffic control. I had considered going into that field in high school, but didn't think I was responsible enough for the job back then. However, as I thought about it, I thought that with my years studying Philosophy and Psychology, and having lived sorta on my own for about half a year, I had grown responsible enough to go for it now. I applied for the job (which comes with a four-year education), and received an email that I was in the selection process for it, starting the day before my birthday (which was last month on the 13th). This was cutting it close, because at the same time I had agreed with some new friends to be a camp leader at a so-called "fantasy camp" (basically a geek camp), which started on my birthday, so I was lucky to have it the day before. After the first week, we'd have to leave, because we (me and the friends who invited me along) had a week-long LARP engagement right after that, during which we'd be part of the team of GMs and NPCs. I managed to ace the first two rounds that took place on that first day of the selection and I told them to schedule me for the earliest possible date for the next phase of the selection, which sadly took place on the first day of the LARP week. It involved five hours of psychological tests, and after that I was rather burned out, but I still ended up dragging myself back to fulfill my promise to play the BBEG's pubescent demigod son in the evening, which I was told I did very well.

To my very pleasant surprise, I passed that phase as well and was scheduled for the third phase, in which I had to do some homework to prepare myself for some exercises, which took place over the course of the last few days. I will be hearing the outcome in the coming days, but I hope to God and every single higher thing that might be out there that I did well enough and that I've passed. All my fingers and toes are crossed so hard they might bruise. Because honestly? This is something that I'd rather do a hundred times over before any other job or education option I have right now. I've never wanted anything so much in my entire life.

Long story short: I now have some time again (well, in two days I'll be attending a concert by Nice Peter and next week I've got another LARP on the weekend, but that's about it), so time to Tier some stuff! I thought I had Tiered all the stuff in the thread itself, but I hadn't looked through some signatures yet, so the earlier post includes some of that, plus some new. I hope I haven't missed anything too interesting in the past few months?
I've only occassionally hopped into the Base Class Challenge, but never really looked at most of the entries other than basic concept.

Temotei
2013-08-13, 06:15 PM
Good luck passing, Morph. Glad to see you back, too. :smallsmile:

DracoDei
2013-08-13, 06:34 PM
<ATC STUFF>
Could you PM me and rhapsodize about that career a bit more? I'm curious, and have said a prayer on your behalf.

I thought I had Tiered all the stuff in the thread itself, but I hadn't looked through some signatures yet, so the earlier post includes some of that, plus some new.
I'm pretty sure you still haven't Tiered the Guardian of Minds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121215), which I linked HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13390631&postcount=50) including my guesses at categories and such.

Eldan
2013-08-13, 07:29 PM
I'd still like you to have a look at my Arcane Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233664) thread, though I'm aware that that might be very time intensive.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-13, 07:45 PM
Please tier my prestige class, Tenebrous Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291321), for the current homebrew contest. It's the second from the last post.
ASAP, please? Idk if the homebrew is meant to be tiered. Contest rules, I guess.

Temotei
2013-08-13, 07:52 PM
Please tier my prestige class, Tenebrous Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291321), for the current homebrew contest. It's the second from the last post.
ASAP, please? Idk if the homebrew is meant to be tiered. Contest rules, I guess.

There's not a rule against tiering classes that are in currently-running contests. However, I doubt Morph is willing to tier those classes because they're subject to heavy editing (or deletion) at a moment's notice.

Gnomes2169
2013-08-13, 08:48 PM
I'm still hoping I can get my Sanguine Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268605) looked at... If it's not too much trouble, of course.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-13, 08:55 PM
However, I doubt Morph is willing to tier those classes because they're subject to heavy editing (or deletion) at a moment's notice.

Hmmmm, Good point.
I just didn't understand when I read the contest rules, which I thought said that I need Morph's tiering before they can qualify. But Perhaps I'm wrong.
I hope it's overlooked, either way.

Temotei
2013-08-13, 09:03 PM
Hmmmm, Good point.
I just didn't understand when I read the contest rules, which I thought said that I need Morph's tiering before they can qualify. But Perhaps I'm wrong.
I hope it's overlooked, either way.


Any entries for contests should be entered in the current contest and discussed here. That is, anything other than entries goes here. Also, anyone who enters the contests may have their classes evaluated for what "tier" it's in by Morph Bark here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701). This has no bearing on the contest, however, so keep making what you like.

:smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2013-08-14, 04:25 AM
While your mistaken belief is somewhat strangely flattering, you don't need a Tiering to be eligible for any of the contests on GitP. However, while I have at times looked at classes still in ongoing contests (though not giving them definite Tierings), the thing keeping me from Tiering your class is the fact that it's a PrC. While I have thought about making a seperate thread as an expansion of this one for PrCs related to any of the Tiered classes, I am currently not doing that.

Anyone willing to do that if free to do so, of course.


Good luck passing, Morph. Glad to see you back, too. :smallsmile:

Could you PM me and rhapsodize about that career a bit more? I'm curious, and have said a prayer on your behalf.

Thanks, guys. :smallsmile:

I can't speak about any specifics regarding the selection, as I had to sign something for that, and I was only allowed a few things to take home with me, but about the rest I believe I can speak freely.


I'm pretty sure you still haven't Tiered the Guardian of Minds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121215), which I linked HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13390631&postcount=50) including my guesses at categories and such.

I'm still hoping I can get my Sanguine Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268605) looked at... If it's not too much trouble, of course.

I'll take a looksie.

Gnomes2169
2013-08-14, 01:37 PM
Actually, I just remembered that I was going to make a few changes to the class... Should be done by tonight, but could you hold off on teiring until I'm done? >_<

DracoDei
2013-08-14, 04:43 PM
Thanks, guys. :smallsmile:

I can't speak about any specifics regarding the selection, as I had to sign something for that, and I was only allowed a few things to take home with me, but about the rest I believe I can speak freely.
Err... at the risk of acting rude in a way that has NOTHING to do with the way I feel, let me try this again:
ATC is a skilled job, requiring the most reliable of persons. I bet the pay isn't horrible either.

I'm a bit socially lost sometimes (Asperger's Syndrome). I can't get inside other people's heads' well.

What I'm trying to say is that the idea of someone's lifelong ambition being ATC fills me with "Huh?" of the delightful sort where I suspect that there is actually an answer available to my curiosity.

I have only minimal curiosity about the selection process, and it never occurred to me to ask questions about it. The very fact that you aren't allowed to talk about it is a shining gem of interesting trivia for me, and I shall, of course, not inquire further on the subject of the selection process.
---
RE: Guardian of Minds

I'll take a looksie.
Thank you.

Jormengand
2013-08-14, 04:49 PM
Ooh, nice. Could you tier the Honour Guard for me, please? (I'm thinking 4?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263787
(The new link is in my sig, but the class is pretty much the same either way)

If this could be tiered? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269287)(Still in the same thread, for now)

toapat
2013-08-14, 10:00 PM
I thought I had Tiered all the stuff in the thread itself, but I hadn't looked through some signatures yet, so the earlier post includes some of that, plus some new. I hope I haven't missed anything too interesting in the past few months?.

i know none of my stuff got tiered. also, welcome back to the land of the sane.

although only these should be tiered

Guardian Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13209484#post13209484)
The Combatant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13289004&postcount=1)
Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14104896&postcount=1)

eftexar
2013-08-14, 10:17 PM
I figured I'd throw up some of my best works for tiering.

Tenebrist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286684) > A few mysteries aren't done, but their effects are pretty much the same as the spells they are based on

Necroloc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279141) > A warlock-like necromancer with some interesting options

Lexitheurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278316) > Truenaming fix that expands on the original's 'feel', while making it viable

Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244973) > Because the Warlock doesn't always cut it

Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245506) > The master of nothing

Mithril Leaf
2013-08-14, 10:27 PM
It'd be fantastic if you were willing to tier my Bow Shaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277806) which you might have missed earlier up or I might not be seeing in the compendium. Best of luck with the ATC job by the way.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-15, 01:08 AM
While your mistaken belief is somewhat strangely flattering, you don't need a Tiering to be eligible for any of the contests on GitP.

To both Morph and Temotei, thank you for that clear-up. I breathe easy once more.

Gnomes2169
2013-08-15, 02:46 AM
Alright, that should be good now~ (Sorry that took so long, there were about 5 more feats than I meant to add at the bottom there...) Go ahead with the tiering~!

sirpercival
2013-08-15, 06:02 AM
Hey Morph, it seems like you have a lot on your plate. When you've worked through some of the backlog, I'd love if you could tackle a few of my multitude of base classes... it's a low priority atm, though, because I really need to update my sigs before you get there, otherwise many things will be missed.

Carl
2013-08-15, 12:43 PM
Any chance you could tier my Paladin fix when you get a chance.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279166

Sho
2013-08-16, 01:39 AM
I realize my class has only been posted within a week, but I am curious how you would tier my base class blackguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270363).
It's been more than a week now, but I'd still gladly accept anymore critique on it from anyone or having it tiered.

tarkisflux
2013-08-16, 09:08 PM
Welcome back Morph, I hope that your application and admission process continues smoothly. Sorry to hear you had a bit of a rocky path getting there.

And I'll refrain from dropping a tier request here, seems like you have enough to go on for a bit. It's nice to see you back, and I don't want to scare you off after all :tongue:

Morph Bark
2013-08-17, 06:34 PM
I have looked through several of the classes now. I'll post comments and critique on them later. I'll first have to pass waterskiing tomorrow on little sleep, seeing the time now.

On more personal note,
last Wednesday I received message that I didn't make the cut and thus do not continue on to the next round for a job as air traffic controller. It was the fourth phase of the selection, and the fifth and sixth would've been the easiest. Also, the third and fifth are apparently the only ones with a chance of re-try. As far as I know, the outcome holds for the whole of the EU, so I don't think I can re-try in another country.

Also, on Thursday, while I was driving to meet a friend of mine to pick her up and go to a concert in Amsterdam (Nice Peter, it was a gift of hers for my birthday), the engine of the car suddenly shut down. I called my dad, who called the lease company, who called a towing company, who called me for my position. Turns out I had put diesel into a benzine car, even though I had first called home about it and was told "diesel" (my dad has always driven diesel cars, but apparently this one's an exception). I found out that if the engine was totally borked like was likely the case, it probably would cost me 4500 euros, which would mean two years less of education for me, which would mean only two years, which isn't enough to get a diploma. Getting a diploma is of huge importance to me, as it'd wipe away the debt I have with the state that I have accrued for the education I've had so far, which is high (I've already had four years of university education, which I told you I had to quit last year).

According to my brother, who is much more knowledgeable about engines than I am, putting diesel in a benzine car isn't as bad as the other way around, so the costs should be only half that, and according to the garage that my dad called yesterday, it might even be below a thousand. I really hope that's the case, because that'd mean I still would have enough for four years of education. I just still wouldn't have enough to live off besides that education, so I still need to get a job as well.

Achievement unlocked: worst week of my life. (Strangely filled with enjoyable events as well.)

DracoDei
2013-08-17, 07:50 PM
Oh dear... that is a nasty business.

I'd think that your dad might be talked into paying for some of it, seeing as how he gave you bad advice.

tarkisflux
2013-08-17, 11:59 PM
Well, that went from :smallfrown: to :smalleek:. Sorry to hear that Morph.

Morph Bark
2013-08-18, 10:46 AM
Comments on classes:

Sanguine Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268605)
*chokes on water* That's quite a powerful class! Well, for melee, that is. Thematically, it's great, and you've made it to mesh well with mechanics, so kudos on that. Of course, one might expect that after eleven versions. I'd say that while some abilities appear powerful, certainly more powerful than most abilities at the same level, they're not on par with some of the stronger damaging spells and therefore okay if I'd shove this in High Tier 3. However, the one ability I'd consider problematic is Cruor Blade.

Right off the bat it increases range by 10 ft. Not 5, it just straight up skips a 5 ft increase and goes right for the 10. I'd put a minor scaling of that in there, because even a 5 ft increase is already really, really good. 8 or 12 levels later, making it a 10 ft increase would be more on par. Then, bleeding damage: 1d4+1 constitution damage? On each damaging attack? That would mean that only nonblooded creatures would be able to survive even a single full attack against this guy from that point on. Even a wounding enhancement is only 1 point of Con damage. Did you really mean Con damage here, or just 1d4+1 normal damage for the bleeding? That much in Con damage is crazy much for just some bloody bleeding. That it can be used to make touch attacks is fine. If he can somehow cast spells (planning on a half-caster PrC for the Sanguine Knight, maybe?), he can have that, sure.

"At level 16, this weapon has a lifestealing effect, healing the Sanguine Knight for 1d6/ 5 levels damage." I presume you mean that for each 5 points of damage the Sanguine Knight deals with his Cruor Blade, he heals 1d6 points of damage himself? The effect itself is fine, I'd say. You may even consider giving this earlier, if you change up Cruor Blade and drop an earlier ability, but then you'll need something for level 16.

Bloodlust: "When attacking a living enemy that has already been damaged, the Sanguine Knight gains +1 to hit and damage against it for every 10% of its maximum health it is missing." Most players/DMs won't keep track of percentages of health much, other than 50% health due to its significance and being easy to calculate. 10% is also easy to calculate, but it still creates extra hassle, considering the constant changing of the bonus. It's all up to you, of course, but amidst a lot of other details to keep track of, I'd find this minor and easy to forget.
"If the target is taking Bleeding damage, this bonus is increased by a further +2." So to +3, correct? I ask because at first I thought you might've meant to. This means you can easily get +10 or +30 to attack and damage at only level 5. (Well, level 8, because at that point you can deal bleeding damage through Cruor Blade.) I'd limit this by class level somehow.

The imagery and concept behind Bloody Step is great, though I find it hard to think up why and how one could teleport from one creature's blood to another's (unless they are related), but one thing I wondered about: if he'd go for a violent exit on a nondamaged creature, he'd deal only 1 damage. Would there even be enough blood for him to emerge from? (If yes, disregard. If no, well, I mostly ask out of curiosity if there were any way to prevent his teleporting other than antimagic.)

Eye of the Storm: keep in mind that 2 levels later he'll be immune to the Con damage that Eye of the Storm is supposed to cause.


Guardian of Minds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121215): So I'm guessing it's meant to be kind of like a noncasting Adept who sometimes can briefly turn into a righteous, Paladin-like warrior? Either way, considering how little he can use most of his good abilities and how little use the other, mostly fluff abilities are, I'd just say that this is Tier 6.


Mechanical Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269287): Why are the systems for right/left arm and right/left shoulder seperate? Why couldn't I choose for TWO buzzsaws, one on each arm? It also has quite a few systems for each body location (on that note, shoulder locations even?), I wonder where all of that goes.


Guardian Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13209484): To be honest, I like the effort you put into it, but it looks very bland. Like the Sanguine Knight, it has a very, very strong frame (all good saves, good BAB, d12 HD), but the rest isn't strong, except a little on the defensive end. The rest is mostly just the standard defensive abilities and Stone Dragon grabbed together. Defiance should require a save. I like Air Lock, semi-original, but you don't justify it well. If enemies would fear him, they'd fly off, not land and make it easier for themselves to die.


Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244973): I'll take a more in-depth look later, but keep in mind that Wildshape itself already brings it up to at least Tier 3, so with the rest added it likely goes higher.



Oh dear... that is a nasty business.

I'd think that your dad might be talked into paying for some of it, seeing as how he gave you bad advice.

The one who told me that over the phone (I had called home to ask if it was a diesel or benzine car, as I was uncertain) and specifically asked for my dad. He was still at work in his home office and on the phone, so my mom answered the question instead. I later found out that she never filled up this particular car herself and always forces my dad to do it whenever she sees it's nearly empty, because he can use a card from the company so that he only has to pay half of the costs.

Granted though, it wouldn't have happend if my dad hadn't told me I could use his car instead and thus save on cost (HURR) that way, or at least if he had made sure to fill up the car before coming home. The tank was near in the red when I left home and I didn't notice until a little after, at which point I didn't want to turn around, as I didn't want to be late to meet up with my friend.

Either way, I still will have to pay the cost, as my parents are in the red each month until my dad gets his paycheck. That's what you get with a big family: even groceries, and even when you only get the bare bones stuff on the cheap, gets expensive when there's a lot of it.

Antonok
2013-08-18, 11:43 AM
If you get a free moment, would you mind giving my Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297326) a look? Wanting some more critique and an idea on where it stands tier wise. (I'm guessing mid to high t3 but I never take my word for anything, too biased that way)

Gnomes2169
2013-08-18, 12:17 PM
[QUOTE=Morph Bark;15845329]Comments on classes:

Sanguine Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268605)
*chokes on water* That's quite a powerful class! Well, for melee, that is. Thematically, it's great, and you've made it to mesh well with mechanics, so kudos on that. Of course, one might expect that after eleven versions. I'd say that while some abilities appear powerful, certainly more powerful than most abilities at the same level, they're not on par with some of the stronger damaging spells and therefore okay if I'd shove this in High Tier 3. However, the one ability I'd consider problematic is Cruor Blade.

1) Right off the bat it increases range by 10 ft. Not 5, it just straight up skips a 5 ft increase and goes right for the 10. I'd put a minor scaling of that in there, because even a 5 ft increase is already really, really good. 8 or 12 levels later, making it a 10 ft increase would be more on par.

2) Then, bleeding damage: 1d4+1 constitution damage? On each damaging attack? That would mean that only nonblooded creatures would be able to survive even a single full attack against this guy from that point on. Even a wounding enhancement is only 1 point of Con damage. Did you really mean Con damage here, or just 1d4+1 normal damage for the bleeding? That much in Con damage is crazy much for just some bloody bleeding.

3) That it can be used to make touch attacks is fine. If he can somehow cast spells (planning on a half-caster PrC for the Sanguine Knight, maybe?), he can have that, sure.

4) "At level 16, this weapon has a lifestealing effect, healing the Sanguine Knight for 1d6/ 5 levels damage." I presume you mean that for each 5 points of damage the Sanguine Knight deals with his Cruor Blade, he heals 1d6 points of damage himself? The effect itself is fine, I'd say. You may even consider giving this earlier, if you change up Cruor Blade and drop an earlier ability, but then you'll need something for level 16.

5) Bloodlust: "When attacking a living enemy that has already been damaged, the Sanguine Knight gains +1 to hit and damage against it for every 10% of its maximum health it is missing." Most players/DMs won't keep track of percentages of health much, other than 50% health due to its significance and being easy to calculate. 10% is also easy to calculate, but it still creates extra hassle, considering the constant changing of the bonus. It's all up to you, of course, but amidst a lot of other details to keep track of, I'd find this minor and easy to forget.
6) "If the target is taking Bleeding damage, this bonus is increased by a further +2." So to +3, correct? I ask because at first I thought you might've meant to. This means you can easily get +10 or +30 to attack and damage at only level 5. (Well, level 8, because at that point you can deal bleeding damage through Cruor Blade.) I'd limit this by class level somehow.

7) The imagery and concept behind Bloody Step is great, though I find it hard to think up why and how one could teleport from one creature's blood to another's (unless they are related), but one thing I wondered about: if he'd go for a violent exit on a nondamaged creature, he'd deal only 1 damage. Would there even be enough blood for him to emerge from? (If yes, disregard. If no, well, I mostly ask out of curiosity if there were any way to prevent his teleporting other than antimagic.)

8) Eye of the Storm: keep in mind that 2 levels later he'll be immune to the Con damage that Eye of the Storm is supposed to cause.

1) Oh, really? Sorry, didn't know that it was that good... I guess I can scale it a bit. :smalltongue: Level 12 has a bit going for it already, so we'll move it to level 16...

2) Actually, the Con damage only occurs once on any one creature per encounter... though I may want to scale it to 1d2+1 on reflection. It cannot be re-applied to the same creature anyway, so 3 con damage max shouldn't kill things too much. :smalltongue:

3) I was thinking that it would just be Cripple and Blood Boil, which are touch attacks, and I had no plans for a PrC... but if anyone wants to make one, they are more than welcome to do so.

4) Actually, that was 1d6/ 5 levels the Sanguine Knight has... which is actually a bit weaker, now that I think about it. :smalltongue: (power attack and everything are awesome...) But on top of his natural ability to heal over time (which is also enhanced by a certain feat at the bottom...) it makes the guy much, much harder to kill... though I'm thinking that it could be increased to 1/4 or 1/3. Your opinion?

5) The player can track it if he wants, the DM doesn't have to do any more work than he/ she wants to. :smalltongue: Heck, an especially lazy DM could just say that the Vital Sight ability let's the Sanguine Knight see little numbers that represent everyone's health above their heads! :smalltongue:

6) No, if the target is bleeding at all then it can apply the +2 bonus once. This means the maximum bonus is +11 for a bleeding enemy that is down 90% of their health. (How many times they are bleeding does not matter, in other words)

7) There would be, as it's jumping through the living blood with the option of causing harm to already damaged enemies, not the blood already spilt. So as long as the target is alive and has blood, you can jump out of them. And it can be countered by anti-magic and replacing the blood in your body with something else? Like embalming fluid... or grape juice :smalltongue: (Wizards I've played with a weird, man...)

8) Actually:

As a note, any sacrificial damage dealt to constitution is not negated by this ability
That's at the bottom of the Reinforced Blood description (the paragraph just before Unflinchable). So no, he's not immune to the con damage... but by that point likely has 36+, so it doesn't matter so much.

DracoDei
2013-08-18, 12:36 PM
Comments on classes:

Sanguine Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268605)
<<SNIP>>

The imagery and concept behind Bloody Step is great, though I find it hard to think up why and how one could teleport from one creature's blood to another's (unless they are related),
It's based on the official class "Blood Magus" I suspect, which has nothing to do with family trees.

Speaking of trees, it is thematically related to Tree Stride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/treeStride.htm).


Guardian of Minds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121215): So I'm guessing it's meant to be kind of like a noncasting Adept who sometimes can briefly turn into a righteous, Paladin-like warrior? Either way, considering how little he can use most of his good abilities and how little use the other, mostly fluff abilities are, I'd just say that this is Tier 6.
First: Thank you very much for your help!

They are supposed to be the moral backbone of the community (or of The Inquisition). A cleric may be able to tell you what your god wants, but a Guardian of Minds can help/force you to follow it. The social arena is their home turf. Moral Champion is a mere sidenote.

Imagine a 1st level Paladin and a 1st level Guardian of Minds[Detect Evil] living in a small village, both with the same stat distribution. One day out of the year, there is some sort of monstrous threat. The paladin shines on that day. The other 354 days? They both can sit around in the public square and use Detect Evil to find people who are "far off the path". But the Guardian of Minds is better at getting them back on it (better skill points, plus Gather Information to find out the root social causes, if any). They sit them down quietly, buy them a drink, and talk to them about it.

As the title says "A Paladin for Everyday Life"... plus they can totally beat up a commoner of equal level due to better weapon and armor proficiencies, and d6 hitdie.

As for "Moral Champion" you SEEMED to have overlooked the "Subvert the Invader" option.

So, yeah, if that still makes them Tier 6 then fine.

Zakaroth
2013-08-18, 01:02 PM
Awesome work, how could I have missed this up until know. If you got the time, I would like to submit my Sublime Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219233) to your judgment. The goal was to make a solid tier 3 melee combatant / skill monkey, so I'm curious how you would rate it.

Morph Bark
2013-08-18, 01:08 PM
4) Actually, that was 1d6/ 5 levels the Sanguine Knight has... which is actually a bit weaker, now that I think about it. :smalltongue: (power attack and everything are awesome...) But on top of his natural ability to heal over time (which is also enhanced by a certain feat at the bottom...) it makes the guy much, much harder to kill... though I'm thinking that it could be increased to 1/4 or 1/3. Your opinion?

Ahh! I derped there then. 1d6 / 5 class levels (adding in class would certainly clear up any confusion such as mine) is still pretty good. Actually, looking at the Vampiric enhancement and similar-working ones, it's better than that. You start out with a 3d6 per attack heal, which is pretty decent, especially on top of Crimson Revelry (which I admittedly missed earlier). Crimson Revelry is effectively Fast Healing 2 at level 1, at least in combat, so I figure it'd make for a great dipping class with only one level.

I do have to wonder how much damage he'll be taking in practical play, and how much healing he can be allowed to somewhat offset that. Crimson Revelry as-is seems rather powerful, but I'd personally hesitate to nerf it too much, considering how he's further supposed to be tanky and all.


That's at the bottom of the Reinforced Blood description (the paragraph just before Unflinchable). So no, he's not immune to the con damage... but by that point likely has 36+, so it doesn't matter so much.

Ahh, I thought that was only for one of his earlier abilities in the first few levels, where it was speaking about sacrifice and such. Misinterpretation, sorry.


As for "Moral Champion" you SEEMED to have overlooked the "Subvert the Invader" option.

So, yeah, if that still makes them Tier 6 then fine.

The thing is if he'd use up all his class abilities on a single day, he'd easily be Tier 5 on that day, above the average even. But measured across an average day, certainly not.

Regarding Subvert the Invader, why did you pick the skills Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Swim? Is it supposed to turn him more into a Rogue of sorts?

sirpercival
2013-08-18, 01:22 PM
Hey Morph, my sig has been updated and is now current, so feel free to plink away at the massive amount of content on your free time :D

Gnomes2169
2013-08-18, 01:31 PM
Ahh! I derped there then. 1d6 / 5 class levels (adding in class would certainly clear up any confusion such as mine) is still pretty good. Actually, looking at the Vampiric enhancement and similar-working ones, it's better than that. You start out with a 3d6 per attack heal, which is pretty decent, especially on top of Crimson Revelry (which I admittedly missed earlier). Crimson Revelry is effectively Fast Healing 2 at level 1, at least in combat, so I figure it'd make for a great dipping class with only one level.

I do have to wonder how much damage he'll be taking in practical play, and how much healing he can be allowed to somewhat offset that. Crimson Revelry as-is seems rather powerful, but I'd personally hesitate to nerf it too much, considering how he's further supposed to be tanky and all.

Ahh, I thought that was only for one of his earlier abilities in the first few levels, where it was speaking about sacrifice and such. Misinterpretation, sorry.

Crimson Revelry does cap at 20 points, though he can enhance it with the Natural Healer feat that I put at the bottom (Bringing him to 20+1/2 con mod rounded down per round). It is more to offset the damage he is going to be taking from Blood Bond that I would consider raising it to 30, but with Natural Healer that doesn't seem to be too much of a problem.

It's perfectly alright, there are quite a lot of things going around in this class. :smalltongue:

Jormengand
2013-08-18, 01:56 PM
Mechanical Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269287): Why are the systems for right/left arm and right/left shoulder seperate? Why couldn't I choose for TWO buzzsaws, one on each arm? It also has quite a few systems for each body location (on that note, shoulder locations even?), I wonder where all of that goes.
If you wanted two buzzsaws then you would be an idiot, because you couldn't possibly use them both even with Quickened System unless you wholeheartedly screwed with the action economy.

As for space issues, you could quite easily have several little gadgets on each shoulder and each hand - for the head and back ones they're not even going to be the same place. The Target Lock, for instance, will go over your eye like a monocle. The Eyes of seeing will be closer, like contact lenses. The Casque of Indomitable Will would go on your head, and it could also be the spiked cap at the same time - there's no reason why two systems can't be the same thing.

The Left/Right shoulder thing is manly to stop you taking eight support systems or eight agressive systems - though, it currently makes no difference unless you want a distortion engine and command capacitator at SyL 1. The Hands are simply to stop you, say, using two light ballistae, or having a shield in your right hand for some reason.

DracoDei
2013-08-18, 02:06 PM
The thing is if he'd use up all his class abilities on a single day, he'd easily be Tier 5 on that day, above the average even. But measured across an average day, certainly not.

Regarding Subvert the Invader, why did you pick the skills Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Swim? Is it supposed to turn him more into a Rogue of sorts?
Yeah "of sorts". A saboteur (thus Disable Device WITHOUT Trapfinding) and/or underground railroad/hide the Jews from the Nazi's sort of rogue. Maybe sneaking into the castle to let down the drawbridge so that the mob of peasants you have incited to rise up can storm in. Of course, unless you have TWO charges of Moral Champion, you won't be able to kill the guards on the winch very well, but you can at least try to lure one or two away into an ambush or provide an actual rogue with flanking.

If I wanted to beef it up, I would start with the SLAs and maybe some bonuses to skill use (such as never believing someone is lying when they are actually telling the truth, although by RAW that can't happen anyway).

Subvert the Invader might get a little boost in such a case.

Temotei
2013-08-18, 02:19 PM
My stuff is always open for tiering, as usual, though you covered the two more popular of my works already. :smallamused:

toapat
2013-08-18, 03:40 PM
Guardian Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13209484): To be honest, I like the effort you put into it, but it looks very bland. Like the Sanguine Knight, it has a very, very strong frame (all good saves, good BAB, d12 HD), but the rest isn't strong, except a little on the defensive end. The rest is mostly just the standard defensive abilities and Stone Dragon grabbed together. Defiance should require a save. I like Air Lock, semi-original, but you don't justify it well. If enemies would fear him, they'd fly off, not land and make it easier for themselves to die.

I know its a bit bland, a purely defensive class is going to be, however i think it technically achieves its objective of being a reasonably powered almost wholly defensive class as a mid T-4

i think largely its just a repeat of prior criticisms which i acknowledged as correct a year ago but never could think of solutions

Morph Bark
2013-08-18, 04:47 PM
If you get a free moment, would you mind giving my Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297326) a look? Wanting some more critique and an idea on where it stands tier wise. (I'm guessing mid to high t3 but I never take my word for anything, too biased that way)

With the stunted Favoured Soul-like casting, I'd put its base below Tier 3 at a low Tier 4 as a start. Sudden Strike is a weaker Sneak Attack and doesn't really add much to that. It has a good basic class chassis, especially in the skills department, befitting the Rogue-like role. The unique abilities are a bit weak. Divine Strike is lacking in power to a level that I would only use it outside of combat on allies, until I'd have Divine Cascade to make it better. Redeem the Wicked is a nice ability, but the class has no other abilities like it, and because it requires use of Divine Strike first, at level 8 and 9 it's not worth it yet, plus a class with a d6 HD isn't going to be keen on catching blows for allies. Embodiment of the Divine is right on the power level for a capstone, but mechanically comes out of nowhere, except in relation to Relentless Force, which is also aside from the rest. I'd say include some more new abilities that mesh well with the ones you have or could lead into them well. Power-wise it's at Tier 4, which you could bring up to Borderline Tier 3-4 with some extra abilities that mesh well with what is already there.


Awesome work, how could I have missed this up until know. If you got the time, I would like to submit my Sublime Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219233) to your judgment. The goal was to make a solid tier 3 melee combatant / skill monkey, so I'm curious how you would rate it.

I remember seeing that class. In fact, at first I just thought I had already tiered it even. Black Lotus is already on my list of disciplines, which I passed on to sirpercival for his Martial Discipline Compendium, too. I like the maneuver recovery method and some of the assassin skills. The abilities mesh well and the choice of disciplines fits nicely together without giving the class a large group of them. I'd say you succeeded in making a solid Tier 3 melee skill monkey.

In the future I may also look at disciplines in depth, so Black Lotus may come up then as well.


Hey Morph, my sig has been updated and is now current, so feel free to plink away at the massive amount of content on your free time :D

If I may ask, which of your classes are the more updated versions (or which do you keep more up to date): the GitP or the minmax versions?

sirpercival
2013-08-18, 04:51 PM
It actually says on there, but it's in minmax.

tarkisflux
2013-08-18, 05:05 PM
Well Morph, since you seem to be chugging through these and gathering new content to yourself for tiering, I will ask again that you tier the templar and the priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269236). The priest might be a borderline fix despite getting a lot of new and/or different stuff, and I know those aren't high on your priority list. The templar has pretty much entirely new stuff though, and it's about as close to a pally fix as warblade is to a fighter fix.

Morph Bark
2013-08-19, 10:39 AM
Blackguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270363): I really like how evocative the picture is. Nice choice. The invocations are all nice and pretty original. One thing I don't get though:

"Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score.
Hit Points at Each Additional Level: 6.
Hit Dice Equivalent: d10 + Constitution modifier."

Why is this? Is the class a 3.5 class, or is it for a 3.5-derivative homebrew system that includes some 4.0 mechanics?


Bow Shaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277806): I'd limit Speed of Mind. As-is, it could make it so someone has a movement speed of 70 ft standard at level 1. Dipping, ahoy! +10 ft at level 1 is fine, +20 ft at 2 might be borderline. Maybe limit it to +5 ft (maybe +10 ft) per level, but otherwise keep it the same?

The Soul Bow being at +2 already at level 3 is really powerful. Most people won't have magical weapons of even +1 until level 3 or 4. I'd make the progression slow at first, then speed up later on. I believe there is a feat (Ancestral Relic or Item Familiar, maybe?) that has a good cost progression for an extra item like that. (Besides, I see that later on the Bow gets a free elemental enhancement, too.)

Ride the Arrow is a great, unique ability. However, it comes two levels before Dimension Door becomes available to anyone, and the use of once per five rounds is definitely way too often. I'd either move it to ten levels later and give it a short-range teleport (like 10/30 ft tops) earlier on, or give it daily use limitations.

Seek the Heart: usually these kinds of abilities only get 1/2 class levels, rather than full. The way this is, its an instant kill with practically no save. This kind of ability is also generally a capstone for base classes or PrCs of 10 levels, so level 15 at the earliest.

Overall, the class mostly has abilities that come too early, and could easily get some extra low-power features at earlier levels if those were moved up, which would also help make the class more versatile.


Tenebrist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286684): Ummm... why does it have mysteries in the same way as if it were supposed to be a vancian caster? Mysteries were specifically made in the way the Shadowcaster has them to be different from vancian casting (although it's still clearly closer to it than the other magic subsystems).


Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244973): The class is pretty clear overall, and the Circles seem good the way they work and not too strong. One thing about Wildshape though: you don't say what sizes they are limited to, so by default they aren't limited by size. Is this intentional? Because that means they have access to Colossal creatures the moment they have the necessary HD, which is very powerful.

Regarding Magemark: Invocations do not have spell levels, so what do the numbers between parentheses mean?


Enthropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245506): Under "Distortions" you call the class "witch". Small nitpick.

What does "The entropomancer may activate any number of shards as a full round action, though she may instead activate a single shard as a standard action" mean, exactly? I thought it first meant she may use all of her distortions as a full-round action if she wishes, but it says "shards", and below Distortions you talk about a Shard class ability. It would be handy for a read-through to have the Shards of Entropy above the Distortions if the Distortions depend heavily upon the Shards.

Scratch that, just read "she may only activate one distortion per round, unless through some other special ability or feat", so its just a case of bad word placement rather than the wording itself being confusing. Putting this first would be better. Also, since you call it "discharging", do the Shards that are used with a Distortion disappear?

Reduction might seem strong to some, but I'd say it's pretty minor considering damage that can be achieved in many cases, so it's good where its at.

Vanishing Presence: the level 14 part of this ability is incredibly strong, especially since "interacting" is a vague concept. As-is, this is like an auto-success on Hide in Plain Sight and would work better as a capstone ability. The level 19 part says "This stacks with concealment, but not other types of miss chances". Miss chances never stack, they always overlap. Miss chances never rise above 50%, I believe that was one of the things they changed when going from 3.0 to 3.5.

Dimension Door: just like this is very strong for the Bow Shaper, is this also very strong for anyone else.

I also notice that you often refer back to the table in your write-up of the abilities. This is pretty annoying when reading through an ability, because then you have to go back up to check the table, while it could've just been stated in the ability itself (and always is in official sources).

Alabenson
2013-08-19, 10:50 AM
When you have a chance, I'd love it if you could take a look at my retools of the Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253492) and the Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267157).

Jormengand
2013-08-19, 01:11 PM
Also, the link for the Metagamer is broken - it should link to http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Metagamer_(3.5e_Class)

gooddragon1
2013-08-19, 01:17 PM
Also, the link for the Metagamer is broken - it should link to http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Metagamer_(3.5e_Class)

You need to put the ) inside your url tag.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Metagamer_(3.5e_Class)

Tavar
2013-08-19, 01:53 PM
I'd appreciate if you could do either my Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14345588&postcount=8) or my Jack of All Blades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257154).

eftexar
2013-08-19, 04:50 PM
Tenebrist
I felt as if the uses per mystery per day were needlessly restricting and that there were better ways of making the class unique. Instead I made them more difficult to counter and identify, coupled with a couple other unique mechanics.

Witch
The size limitation with wildshape shouldn't be need. Since it is limited by HD the larger sizes can't be accessed until a higher character level. Unless there are larger animals with lower HD I'm not seeing.

As far as magemark though invocations do have "effective" spell levels which I can use.

Entropomancer
I'll have to go and fix the typo and take a look at rewording, or reordering, the shards and distortions. Concealment stacking already reworded to overlapping and reordering already done. Better now?

I'm not sure how I should reword vanishing presence. And honestly I can't remember myself how it was intended. I'm thinking either:

1. Interacting would be anything that wouldn't normally garner an observer's attention, such as just standing there or walking by them.

2. Or, it would be anything directly affecting the target(s) themselves. So you could pickpocket someone and only be noticed by them.

Ilorin Lorati
2013-08-19, 06:19 PM
Alright, now that I seem to have gotten all the feedback I would normally and cleaned up everything, I'd like to see about what power my Praetor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297422) class is at so I can make adjustments.

eftexar suggested in my thread that it looked around tier 3, but and while I know the core concept I don't know enough about the specifics of it to really understand his reasoning behind it.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-19, 10:56 PM
I'd be curious about any of my classes from... the Ascetic onwards in my full sig. :) If you have time. (Not the tattoo one, ofc)

Gnomes2169
2013-08-20, 02:53 AM
Ah, could we get the most recent judged classes on the OP please? Just so that I can feel special... :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2013-08-20, 08:07 AM
It actually says on there, but it's in minmax.

Ahh, alrighty. I thought "more stuff" merely meant you hadn't ported everything to GitP as well, and the ones on GitP might be updated versions since they came later. Thanks for the clear-up.


Witch
The size limitation with wildshape shouldn't be need. Since it is limited by HD the larger sizes can't be accessed until a higher character level. Unless there are larger animals with lower HD I'm not seeing.

True, though there are a handful exceptions I believe. Also, I see that you have limited the Witch to "creatures of one HD less than hers", so she'll always be a level behind on the Druid, which is good power-wise. On the other hand, did you mean for the ability to imply that it progresses even when you don't take Witch levels afterwards (and so could have a Witch 5/Something X wildshaping into 19 HD animals)?


Entropomancer
I'll have to go and fix the typo and take a look at rewording, or reordering, the shards and distortions. Concealment stacking already reworded to overlapping and reordering already done. Better now?

I'm not sure how I should reword vanishing presence. And honestly I can't remember myself how it was intended. I'm thinking either:

1. Interacting would be anything that wouldn't normally garner an observer's attention, such as just standing there or walking by them.

2. Or, it would be anything directly affecting the target(s) themselves. So you could pickpocket someone and only be noticed by them.

Better, yes. And I think out of those two 1 would be better than 2. Considering its much like a kind of stealth in effect, though, I'd say you'd best also include circumstances under which she can activate the ability. Otherwise she could be interacting with someone, stop, and instantly vanish. Perhaps make it require a move action to activate after at least a full round of no interaction with any other creature?


Ah, could we get the most recent judged classes on the OP please? Just so that I can feel special... :smalltongue:

I don't always review classes, but when I do, I wait until I've done a bunch of them before I end up putting them on the Tiering list, if at all. It saves hassle.

Temotei
2013-08-20, 12:47 PM
I don't always review classes, but when I do, I wait until I've done a bunch of them before I end up putting them on the Tiering list, if at all. It saves hassle.

If you want help, I could by adding the tiered-but-not-in-the-list classes to a copy-pasted version in a new post. Then you can just copy-paste into the OP and add/subtract any relevant tags.

Morph Bark
2013-08-20, 04:18 PM
Toapat's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14104896): regarding Hymnbook, can the Paladin inscribe extra spells into the Hymnbook the way a Wizard can add spells to his spellbook? If so, what is the limit to the amount of spells it can hold (so, its page number)?


Scavenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=294344): Can the Scavenger ever create magical or alchemical items with the Junkheap ability? (Saw that it can create magical ones from level 4 onwards.) For Improvisation I'd put a cap on it per use, as otherwise he could throw all points on a single attack. For Scavenged Magic I noticed that you have a table with Spells Known up to level 5, while potion-viable spells only go up to level 3. If there is an exception, you should note that. Improvised Efficiency: for armors it's just "category", not "size category".



Well Morph, since you seem to be chugging through these and gathering new content to yourself for tiering, I will ask again that you tier the templar and the priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269236). The priest might be a borderline fix despite getting a lot of new and/or different stuff, and I know those aren't high on your priority list. The templar has pretty much entirely new stuff though, and it's about as close to a pally fix as warblade is to a fighter fix.

The Priest's Undying ability seems too much at its level. Well, not in itself, but I think the cooldown on it should be longer. Plus, I find it a little odd that it comes at the same time as Immortal, rather than a level or so after it. Same goes for the Templar's Undying Faith.

Servants of the Deity is a great ability and well-balanced, but there won't be much choice in the kind of servants you can summon when it is based on ECL rather than CR.

Gate to the Heavens' text grants it at 18th level, the table at 19th level. Overall, I'd say the Priest is Tier 3, potentially Tier 2 depending on domains, so I'd put it in High 3.

Haven't read through the Avenger Styles or Vows yet. I presume the Avenger Styles are power-wise similar to a set of appropriately-leveled ToB maneuvers from a cursory look-over of a few of them, and the Vows to limit the Templar's actions and thereby lower its effective power a bit (but not enough to lower it an entire Tier, unless its from High 3 to 3 or 3 to Borderline 3-4).


I'd appreciate if you could do either my Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14345588&postcount=8) or my Jack of All Blades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257154).

Hmmm, the Jack of All Blades gives me the feel of a more spontaneous, weaker Blade Scholar (High 3). It's probably Borderline 3-4.


Alright, now that I seem to have gotten all the feedback I would normally and cleaned up everything, I'd like to see about what power my Praetor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297422) class is at so I can make adjustments.

I like Spell Storing. It's nifty. Steal Enhancement should require a touch attack to use. Abjurative Aegis has no effect until it increases something by 30%, because most buff spells grant a +4 bonus or less. The only exception (off the top of my head, that is) are energy resistances, which would get an increase of 1 or 2. Also, working with percentages is a big hassle unless you work with big numbers.

Why aren't the Specializations in the same post?

Overall, it comes across as more Fighter-y Spellthief, with a hint of Abjurant Champion. Forgot which Tier Spellthief was, exactly, though.


If you want help, I could by adding the tiered-but-not-in-the-list classes to a copy-pasted version in a new post. Then you can just copy-paste into the OP and add/subtract any relevant tags.

Thanks for the offer, Temotei, but rather not. It would add an extra dimension of expectation of "review = getting Tiered". People who ask for reviews in-thread all get equal treatment (at least I try), but the Tiering itself is also quality control in large part. I believe I've done well in that so far, but just in case I may end up looking through the Tiers in a few months' time to check if some clearly low-quality works slipped through.

If to others this feels like I'm putting you down, it's not meant for that. If a class of yours gets reviewed, but not Tiered, see it as a challenge to do better, to be more original, to really go for it. I can assure you that a push like that has gotten many other brewers far. Starting to enter in Homebrew contests is a good first step, for instance.

Temotei
2013-08-20, 04:35 PM
Thanks for the offer, Temotei, but rather not. It would add an extra dimension of expectation of "review = getting Tiered". People who ask for reviews in-thread all get equal treatment (at least I try), but the Tiering itself is also quality control in large part. I believe I've done well in that so far, but just in case I may end up looking through the Tiers in a few months' time to check if some clearly low-quality works slipped through.

Fair enough.


If to others this feels like I'm putting you down, it's not meant for that. If a class of yours gets reviewed, but not Tiered, see it as a challenge to do better, to be more original, to really go for it. I can assure you that a push like that has gotten many other brewers far. Starting to enter in Homebrew contests is a good first step, for instance.

F'real.

Zakaroth
2013-08-20, 04:40 PM
I remember seeing that class. In fact, at first I just thought I had already tiered it even. Black Lotus is already on my list of disciplines, which I passed on to sirpercival for his Martial Discipline Compendium, too. I like the maneuver recovery method and some of the assassin skills. The abilities mesh well and the choice of disciplines fits nicely together without giving the class a large group of them. I'd say you succeeded in making a solid Tier 3 melee skill monkey.

In the future I may also look at disciplines in depth, so Black Lotus may come up then as well.


Ahh, yeah, you even gave some feedback on the Black Lotus discipline, which helped me clean-up some of the maneuvers.
Thanks for Tier-review, good to know that the goal was met.

PS: Just read about your horrible week, sorry to hear that. Especially as the dutch higher education system gets stricter by the year. By the way, did you apply for a job at Schiphol?

tarkisflux
2013-08-20, 06:36 PM
Thanks for taking a look Morph. I was aiming for 2-3, and I'm glad that you got that sense.


The Priest's Undying ability seems too much at its level. Well, not in itself, but I think the cooldown on it should be longer. Plus, I find it a little odd that it comes at the same time as Immortal, rather than a level or so after it. Same goes for the Templar's Undying Faith.

Looking back on those, I think I was going to push them back a couple of levels (for contingency parity), but then didn't do it. Guess I got distracted. Thanks for reminding me about them, I'll go shuffle some class features around.

[Edit] And those are complete now. Undying raise at 15, and undying half-rez at 18.


Servants of the Deity is a great ability and well-balanced, but there won't be much choice in the kind of servants you can summon when it is based on ECL rather than CR.

It does use CR actually. The ability triggers off of EL (Encounter Level, that funny CR math thing) instead of ECL :smallwink:.


Gate to the Heavens' text grants it at 18th level, the table at 19th level.

Probably an artifact from previous ability shuffling. Fixed text to 19, and thanks for catching.


Haven't read through the Avenger Styles or Vows yet. I presume the Avenger Styles are power-wise similar to a set of appropriately-leveled ToB maneuvers from a cursory look-over of a few of them, and the Vows to limit the Templar's actions and thereby lower its effective power a bit (but not enough to lower it an entire Tier, unless its from High 3 to 3 or 3 to Borderline 3-4).

I hadn't really tried for power parity with maneuvers like that, but would be pretty happy if it came out like that anyway. I may tweak them to do that explicitly actually, since it better captures the "little bit cleric (spells), little bit fighter (maneuvers), plus their own special thing (vows)" sort of mashup I was going for.

Thanks again for the quick look over :smallbiggrin:.

Tavar
2013-08-20, 06:50 PM
Hmmm, the Jack of All Blades gives me the feel of a more spontaneous, weaker Blade Scholar (High 3). It's probably Borderline 3-4.


I can see what you mean. The main factor is the partial initiator level, right?

Thank you, and a preemptive thanks if you get around to the Agent.

Ilorin Lorati
2013-08-20, 09:57 PM
I like Spell Storing. It's nifty. Steal Enhancement should require a touch attack to use. Abjurative Aegis has no effect until it increases something by 30%, because most buff spells grant a +4 bonus or less. The only exception (off the top of my head, that is) are energy resistances, which would get an increase of 1 or 2. Also, working with percentages is a big hassle unless you work with big numbers.

Why aren't the Specializations in the same post?

Overall, it comes across as more Fighter-y Spellthief, with a hint of Abjurant Champion. Forgot which Tier Spellthief was, exactly, though.

I thought it stated that you needed to touch the enemy; I'll make it clearer, thanks.

I know that percentages are a hassle, but flat numbers would need me to have a whole paragraph of just exceptions or changes in numbers; Protection against evil was one of the biggest offenders with flat numbers (which was my original method) from 1-5 as they leveled to deflection against an alignment was a little strong. I'll see if I can find a middle ground, though.

The two specializations were moved to the second post as a side effect of me rewriting that particular feature and experimenting with additional specializations. I probably should move them back to the end of the same post.

Thanks for the assistance. I suppose ~3-4 is about where it looks to be once I get the rest of the kinks worked out, which is fine by me.

Carl
2013-08-20, 09:58 PM
Don't know if you just decided you wanted to leave it till later, but just in case i thought i'd remind you about my paladin fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279166).

Also obligatory condolences on your horrid week, as someone who had his own high education dreams wreaked by various things my sympathies.

@Osagasu:

Make a table listing the old bonus and the new bonus after the effect...

Ilorin Lorati
2013-08-20, 10:25 PM
@Osagasu:

Make a table listing the old bonus and the new bonus after the effect...

Sorting it by spell would be a nightmare (56 spells, sometimes with multiple bonuses in each spell), and sorting it by bonus type would need a 3-dimensional table (Bonus level, type, starting bonus), which isn't going to work unfortunately.

Carl
2013-08-20, 10:40 PM
{table=head]Base bonus|Improvement at 3rd|Improvement at 7th|Improvement at 11th|Improvement at 15th|Improvement at 19th
1|+0|+1|+1|+2|+2
2|+1|+2|+2|+3|+3
3|+1|+2|+2|+3|+3
4|+2|+3|+3|+4|+4
5|+2|+3|+3|+4|+4
6|+3|+4|+4|+5|+5
7|+3|+4|+4|+5|+5
8|+4|+5|+5|+6|+6
9|+4|+5|+5|+6|+6
10|+5|+6|+6|+7|+7
[/table]

What's complicated about that, (as an example only, changes the bonuses to suit you).

Ilorin Lorati
2013-08-20, 10:51 PM
What's complicated about that, (as an example only, changes the bonuses to suit you).

That was actually a method that didn't occur to me. C'est la vie.

Thanks for the table.

Morph Bark
2013-08-21, 03:00 AM
Ahh, yeah, you even gave some feedback on the Black Lotus discipline, which helped me clean-up some of the maneuvers.
Thanks for Tier-review, good to know that the goal was met.

PS: Just read about your horrible week, sorry to hear that. Especially as the dutch higher education system gets stricter by the year. By the way, did you apply for a job at Schiphol?

Not yet, but I well might. My first priority is thinking up what education to dedicate myself to now, as there's only a week and a half left to decide on that and get to it. A job will be necessary as well to keep myself financed, though.


It does use CR actually. The ability triggers off of EL (Encounter Level, that funny CR math thing) instead of ECL :smallwink:.

Ah, I thought EL simply meant "Effective Level" and was interchangeably used with ECL, simply discarding the C occasionally.


The two specializations were moved to the second post as a side effect of me rewriting that particular feature and experimenting with additional specializations. I probably should move them back to the end of the same post.

I'd put it in the class abilities write-up itself, at the level you get it at. With it still being in a spoiler, it doesn't take up much reading space, but still wouldn't require scrolling away and breaking up your reading to search forth and back again where you were.


Don't know if you just decided you wanted to leave it till later, but just in case i thought i'd remind you about my paladin fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279166).

I might as well ask someone to collect all Paladin Fixes, considering how many people are now requesting reviews about them. Do a feature similar to Fighter Fridays. :smalltongue:

EdroGrimshell
2013-08-21, 07:40 AM
Scavenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=294344): Can the Scavenger ever create magical or alchemical items with the Junkheap ability? (Saw that it can create magical ones from level 4 onwards.) For Improvisation I'd put a cap on it per use, as otherwise he could throw all points on a single attack. For Scavenged Magic I noticed that you have a table with Spells Known up to level 5, while potion-viable spells only go up to level 3. If there is an exception, you should note that. Improvised Efficiency: for armors it's just "category", not "size category".


Improvisation (Ex): At the start of each day, a scavenger gains a number of improvisation points equal to his class level x 10. As a free action, the scavenger may spend a number of these points up to his class level to gain a circumstance bonus of equal size to his next skill check this round and to make any skill check untrained for 1 round. This bonus never applies to skill checks that require more than one round to perform and does not allow such uses of trained-only skills to be used untrained.

This limit applies to ALL of the options. Only up to your class level can be spent at once ever.


Scavenged Magic (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a scavenger can literally scavenge magic from his surroundings. The scavenger can then shape this magic for various purposes, however, at this level, the scavenger can only put it to use in its simplest form. The scavenger gains the ability to use prestidigitation at-will as a supernatural ability. Additionally, the scavenger selects an additional number of cantrips he can use at will equal to his Int modifier (the most common are Jolt and Mending). Finally, the scavenger can make alchemical items with their Junkheap ability.

2nd Level you can start making alchemical items.


Starting at 8th level, the scavenger can distill the magic within himself into a more usable state. This allows the scavenger to have a number of spells "prepared" with a total spell level equal to his character level which the scavenger can cast on himself as a move action, as if drinking a potion. The scavenger gains a small number of spells known that must be spells that can be made into potions and a caster level equal to their character level. It takes 5 minutes to prepare these spells and an investment of points from the scavenger's reserve equal to the spell level + 2 squared (4 for 1st level spells, 9 for 2nd level spells, 16 for 3rd level spells, etc). These distilled spells often appear as tattoos on the scavenger's body that turn into devices that provide the benefits of the spell when cast and break apart when their effect runs out. Spells of a level higher than 3rd must still meet the prerequisites for being made into potions or oils, except for the normal level restriction.

Already noted the exception in the ability.

And thanks on pointing out the typo in Efficiency.


As you can see, most of your concerns were simply missed, by no means hidden or anything, just, easy to miss on a quick read through.

Carl
2013-08-21, 08:11 AM
That was actually a method that didn't occur to me. C'est la vie.

Thanks for the table.

heh, guess i explained myself poorly the first time sory. Glad to help btw.

@Morph: :smallbiggrin:, not a bad idea, not sure how many requsts you've got to, but yeah a few of us have asked. Just wanted to make sure it hadn't been forgotten as you'd now done classes both before and after my post :).

Give me a few mins and i'll try to collect them all for you.

Gorgondantess's The Real Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730)

Topat's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14104896&postcount=1)

Carl's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279166)

Alebenson's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267157)

Lix Lorn's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10409695)

Drako_Beoulve's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13958477)

Fayrule's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266790)

Iron Wizard's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15736427)

Deepbludiver's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15634925)

Zman's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14447620)

Grod the Giant's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12150015)

Sgt.Cookie's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13331135)

Ok that seems to be all of them from the last 3 pages of discussion, which is the time period in which you where taking your break, if you want me to go back further just say :).

eftexar
2013-08-21, 03:51 PM
I made some more changes to the Witch and Entropomancer. All should be better now.
Still not sure about the wording on the Entropomancer ability, but I think editing a class that's been done for a while is always more difficult than working from scratch or even on a recent project.

[edit]: And yes the shapeshifting was intended to be multiclass friendly. Unlike many lower level spells and abilities it would, without this, become obsolete with even a couple levels of multiclassing. And with the miriad of other features that would be lost I didn't think it would be a problem.

Morph Bark
2013-08-21, 04:56 PM
Ok that seems to be all of them from the last 3 pages of discussion, which is the time period in which you where taking your break, if you want me to go back further just say :).

I actually meant ALL Paladin fixes I could possibly find, at least on GitP and Minmaxboards. XD But I thank you for collecting just those, too. :smallsmile:

Tomorrow I'll likely be finding out my personal final verdict on whether or not to persue a job in the video game industry. (Here I come, Gamescom.)

toapat
2013-08-21, 05:55 PM
Tomorrow I'll likely be finding out my personal final verdict on whether or not to persue a job in the video game industry. (Here I come, Gamescom.)

good luck

also, http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/thumb_270915351_bc8e626c68.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12909996&postcount=1) (KaneO hasnt been updating it, i havent been on in the last 9ish months to see if he even still is on the forums (image is a hyperlink))

Carl
2013-08-21, 06:07 PM
Ahh sorry Morph, the link topat provided appears to be good upto this time last year. I'll see what else i can dig up though with no forum search function it ain't going to be easy.

Also enjoy yourself :).

Ok added a bunch more to my prior post, everything that Google could find from GitP.

Zaydos
2013-08-21, 06:45 PM
Paladin fixes? Here's one I made umm... 4 years ago. It's not in the OP so I think you haven't looked it over, but I'm not completely sure it is not in the kitty-cat link, though.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126988

Milo v3
2013-08-21, 08:00 PM
Here's my paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14743036&postcount=33). Though it isn't in it's own dedicated thread or anything.

Sho
2013-08-22, 07:33 AM
Blackguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270363): I really like how evocative the picture is. Nice choice. The invocations are all nice and pretty original. One thing I don't get though:

"Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score.
Hit Points at Each Additional Level: 6.
Hit Dice Equivalent: d10 + Constitution modifier."

Why is this? Is the class a 3.5 class, or is it for a 3.5-derivative homebrew system that includes some 4.0 mechanics?
Yes. The 4e flat HP gain was included per the basis that it used to be used in a few games my old gaming group had. Not every one does this, so I made it a point to still include the 3.5e Hit Dice. It's only that part that's really different.

toapat
2013-08-30, 01:34 PM
Any news Morph?

Morph Bark
2013-09-01, 05:35 PM
Gamescom was fun, though it lasted not that long. It took 1.5 hours to find a parking spot, only to discover we couldn't pay for more than 4 hours for it (not due to lack of money though) and weren't allowed to get out of the event hall, pay for more hours when the time would be up, and then get back. Did get some free League of Legends skins/champ out of it though! After that I've been busy with the search for education (Game Design would be totally my thing, but all the good schools are very strict and you need to apply in April or earlier), which I may have found in Belgium, and for which I'll be making some phonecalls tomorrow. I've also been busy helping my family set up things for a big party this weekend, as it was my parents' 25th anniversary plus both their birthday parties together (my dad's is in a few weeks and mom's was a while ago, but they are roughly 100 years old together now). :smallsmile:

In the meantime, as this is my 100th post in this thread, I figured I'd do something special for it, such as a feature, but I don't have the time or energy after clean-up today, so here's just the introduction for now, and I'll edit in the rest later:


Mysterious Mondays

Shadow Magic has always been a bit of the odd one out amongst all magic systems. It resembles vancian casting a lot in some ways, but yet works very differently. At the same time, it shares its book with two other magic systems: Binding and Truenaming, the former of which is considered to be the most balanced magic subsystem in 3.5 and which has many fans, the latter of which is considered the worst balanced magic subsystem in 3.5 and which has many opponents. Shadow magic meanwhile has decent fluff in Tome of Magic, but neither really the strong love nor the strong hatred that the others seem to garner. Several people have built further on Shadow Magic in their homebrew however, some with a single PrC or a handful of mysteries or a feat, one or two with slightly larger projects, and then there is one man with a huge one. You might know him on the forums as Realms of Chaos.

His project, the Descent of Shadows, can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519) and is one of the biggest homebrew projects I've ever seen, especially for something that could be considered "just" a fix. (I say just, but it certainly isn't "just" a fix, clearly!) Truly, this project is amazing, and daunting to even read through it all! Luckily, for this, I didn't need to read through everything, just the necessary bits to give a decent coverage of the base class and their full workings.


EDIT: It's later!

Cultist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4037233&postcount=14): Fluff is very simple and prettymuch everything can be gotten from just reading the name. On the mysteries it ties that well into the crunch, by having them start out similar to divine spells (iirc, normally they're more akin to arcane ones). They never gain access to the level 7 or higher mysteries, but they got more uses of them than a Shadowcaster for each of them. Plus, Expanded Faith grants some divine spells off the Cleric list, expanding their reportoire and versatility.

Patron's Gift can be stronger when used on yourself, but only after level 4, and healing is never bad. The True Believer feat isn't a huge thing, but if you're using Relics in your campaign, it's an amazing little extra. Later on, you gain some resistances and immunities and small ways to control undead and outsiders. Not strongly so, but they're certainly useful abilities. Overall, I'm not sure about putting it in Tier 3, it depends on the mysteries, which I assume are slightly better than the ToM ones, but the Shadowcaster is already a good Tier 4, so this one is at least Borderline.

Hollow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4037247&postcount=15): Being an anime fan, the name of course first reminded me of Bleach, but the name is actually quite inspired for this class. Y'know, if Realms of Chaos doesn't happen to be an anime fan who took that name and gained inspiration from it to turn it into something completely different. Mechanically, they can be compared to a Shadowy Paladin, as they gain mysteries only at level 6 and are much more combat-based than they are caster-like.

Plunged Into Darkness feels rather weird on a base class (well, any class with a similar ability *AHEMWARHULK*), so I wonder as to the fluff-wise justification for it, although I do have a hunch. Exude Darkness is likewise a weird ability, but it has its uses. Moment of Clarity looks likewise useful, but its downsides FAR outstrip the benefits of it, and you can only use it "once per level",even! I sure hope for all the downsides and limited abilities to this class, it has something good later on! We'll see, won't we?

Then there's Pull of Shadows. Reading through it, I can't help but think that either the rest of the party needs to be built around playing together with a Hollow, or you want to send it into the midst of your enemies. Otherwise, this ability seems like it'll make the Hollow more of a detriment to the party than something good.

Inured to Hardship and Freed of Flesh are finally some truly beneficial things, but all passive, non-combat things. Shadowstriding is the first really great ability the Hollow has: yay, teleportation! Sadly, this only comes at level 5, a little late for something good. Then again, I did compare it to the Paladin earlier, so maybe I'm being punished for the comparison. Touched by Darkness is another cool one, and also movement-related, so the Hollow certainly will never be in need of much aid in getting somewhere in the midst of a fight. Shadow Strike is nifty, but because the damage is nonlethal and the damage bonus variable and usually not that much (though it can easily start at +7d6), its highly limited in use, due to the high amount of monsters immune to nonlethal damage. This dampens Felling Blow as well, which otherwise could've been a great ability.

Overall, the Hollow seems very weak. Their only strong point is that they can take damage instead of expending a use of a mystery, while still using that mystery. Depending on which mystery used, this can be very strong, but they do not have access to the higher level mysteries and require taking all the previous mysteries in a path if you want to get the higher-level mysteries. The class certainly won't get out of Tier 4, in the low end, tops.

Eventide Magus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4037260&postcount=16): Okay, wow. You get both arcane casting with some very strong spells and full shadowcasting. There's gotta be a downside, because this is like being a full-on Noctumancer from the get-go. The Twilight stuff just piles it on some more with its special sight of all sorts combined. (Not a huge thing, but something extra nonetheless.)

The Price: Oh, so there is a downside! Whew, goo--what. That's no downside. Sure, the casting check is a hassle, but you've got so many things to cast you can go with a few failures, and with a +11 on that check you can cast everything flawlessly. Ability and skill check bonuses are one of the least hard things to get together. And this just gives it all a further power boost! Tier 2, no doubt about it.

Ephemeral Watcher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4037431&postcount=17): Brief glance, first impression: this is the monk amongst these classes. Well, unarmed strike at least, plus there are some debilitating oaths attached to it that are a pain to deal with, but more doable than a Paladin's oaths. Still, additional mechanical penalties...

Dust to Dust. Handy! Everyone should have this for their bigtime enemies.
Armor of Darkness. MUCH better than what a Monk gets! Dang, shattering weapons even.
Ephemeral Strike seems okay, but then you see that it allows you to threaten to a range of 30 ft. OH MY! It's still not too powerful though, because it has its limitations. It's also useable per encounter rather than per day, so bonus points for that. (Also, this plus Stunning Fist = whoop-ass.) The Greater version is also, as it says, great. Good build-up.
Resist Magic seems a little out of place, especially the use of Charisma in an otherwise Wisdom-and-Dex class.
Twilight Reserve is AWESOME and would be god-like if you acquire immunity to nonlethal damage. You see, whilst with the Hollow's abilities you need to take nonlethal damage to activate an ability, with this ability the Ephemeral Watcher first does something, and then gets the damage afterwards (if not immune). The damage is not a condition to allow the ability to be activated. Nice.
Entropic Blow is cool. I hope a later ability builds a little further on it. (Strike and Assault, woo!)
Improved Armor of Darkness nitpick: standing in shadowy illumination already gives 20% miss chance, so that's nothing new.
Mantle of Shadow seems too much to me... but then again, spell resistance is a crappy thing, IMO, and should be gotten rid of.

Overall, this class looks well-made and pretty cool to play. It's not a high Tier one, because in many ways its like the Monk, but it has some good abilities that put it squarely in 4.

Midnight Seer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4037440#post4037440): There's a coding error under Lore, which happens to be an ability I like. Knowledge is always good. The Seal of Shadows is an interesting way of utilizing mysteries, though this limits them severely (and due to requiring 4 mysteries of the previous level to be known first, you can only get so far as two 6th level mysteries at level 20, and as I recall they weren't that powerful, though they were good, although Realms may have introduced more powerful ones). The Glyphs are many and varied, but you can only get so many of them, and it is a lot to keep track of, and what mysteries are attached to them at a time. The amount of things to keep track of doesn't hinder a class in getting to any Tier though, and the top-Tier classes tend to all be of this sort. However, due the limitations, and how often a Glyph can be made to not function for a while due to other class abilities, as well as willfully blinding themselves, the Midnight Seer's power comes in trickles. It's ability of precognition, as well as being able to prepare actions very well, are both great, but don't weigh up against the bunch of lesser powers. I'd say it's better than the Hollow in make, but it could do with stronger mysteries and some extra, stronger class features.

In short, it looks like my verdict on the classes would be, in order "simple, but good", "terrible mechanics, only downsides, some decent fluff", "no downsides to a lot of power", "a very well-executed shadow monk" and "a promising, but power-wise lacklustre sage. It seems to me Realms of Chaos' strong point is not the classes, clearly. Seeing as he is also the creator of Xenotheurgy, I'd say his strong point lies in creating something big, new and complex with good fluff, focused on the system, but not additional components utilizing that system. I'd have to check the Xenotheurge to be sure, but then again, the Xenotheurge is the only base class for that system (that I know of) and is therefore steeped in the system, and on the other hand it's a huge project that kind of scares me.

However, Shadow Magic is not entirely done with, folks! There are some more base classes, and to be honest, I want to ask you guys... what great Shadow Magic homebrew have you found? It's time to give it more love, and I'd definitely love to give it its own subsystem subsection in the beginning of the thread with some links to a lot of mysteries, feats and of course classes!

Realms of Chaos
2013-09-05, 09:14 AM
Truth be told, I could probably use some manner of editor for my longer projects in general. Any volunteers? :smalltongue:

toapat
2013-09-05, 10:46 AM
so, any news on the paladin rewrites beyond the pile we already have found here for you?

Gnomes2169
2013-09-05, 11:57 AM
Morph, Eventide Magus links to the Ephemeral watcher. :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2013-09-06, 02:40 AM
Truth be told, I could probably use some manner of editor for my longer projects in general. Any volunteers? :smalltongue:

Could be handy, if that person would really read into everything. PEACHes from people in a thread each individually tend to focus on small bits, especially with such big projects. It's daunting to do such a big project, but also (much less so though) daunting to read through all of it! Which, incidentally, is one reason I haven't done Xenotheurgy yet. :smalltongue:


so, any news on the paladin rewrites beyond the pile we already have found here for you?

I've gathered them up and saved them so I can do something with them later. I don't like doing features on Fixes as much as I do on other things, because much of it is doing something that I've already used and read about a lot a little bit differently. Rest assured though, I'll get to it, as well as Monk Mondays and Wizard Wednesdays.

Was also thinking about Third Party Thursdays. Are there any good 3rd party classes? I know Dreamscarred Press has some decent stuff, but that's about it. Green Ronin not so much.

3WhiteFox3
2013-09-06, 09:26 AM
Could be handy, if that person would really read into everything. PEACHes from people in a thread each individually tend to focus on small bits, especially with such big projects. It's daunting to do such a big project, but also (much less so though) daunting to read through all of it! Which, incidentally, is one reason I haven't done Xenotheurgy yet. :smalltongue:



I've gathered them up and saved them so I can do something with them later. I don't like doing features on Fixes as much as I do on other things, because much of it is doing something that I've already used and read about a lot a little bit differently. Rest assured though, I'll get to it, as well as Monk Mondays and Wizard Wednesdays.

Was also thinking about Third Party Thursdays. Are there any good 3rd party classes? I know Dreamscarred Press has some decent stuff, but that's about it. Green Ronin not so much.

I heartily recommend anything by Dreamscarred Press, their stuff is really quality work. Monte Cook's 3rd Party stuff is supposed to have some good stuff in it. I only know his stuff from Arcana Evolved which had pretty good classes.

d20pfsrd has a whole bunch of 3rd Party Pathfinder classes on their site. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes) The only two I've looked at are the Malefactor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/total-party-kill-games-classes/malefactor) by Total Party Kill games, which is a well-designed hexblade inspired class based around bad luck and curses. The other isn't what I'd call good, but it is interesting in it's own bizzare way, the Artificer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer) by Adamant Entertainment.

Network
2013-09-06, 05:31 PM
Truth be told, I could probably use some manner of editor for my longer projects in general. Any volunteers? :smalltongue:
Depending on the project, I think I can do that. I have some good opinions of your homebrews in general, of Descend into Shadow in particular.

Was also thinking about Third Party Thursdays. Are there any good 3rd party classes? I know Dreamscarred Press has some decent stuff, but that's about it. Green Ronin not so much.
I suggest Mongoose's Chaos Mage and Samurai. Both have great fluff.

Morph Bark
2013-09-16, 05:31 AM
I'll check out the Chaos Mage and Samurai, as well as the other suggestions.

In the meantime, the following classes have been Tiered:
Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244973)
Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298117)
Botanist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301806)
Runewarden (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292636)
Disciple of Anima (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289855)
Death Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186986)
Biollurgist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300116)
Kyodai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300555)
Delirium Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301741)

Milo v3
2013-09-16, 05:53 AM
In the meantime, the following classes have been Tiered:
Biollurgist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300116)


Great. That's where I was aiming :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2013-10-02, 03:33 PM
A bit of an update:

Tier 2
Dementist, go craaaaazy
Kathodos, say hi to Exalted inspiration
Monstrous Armiger, wear monsters as armor!
Teramach, say hi to Exalted inspiration again

High Tier 3
Courtier, a Leadership-focused class (minus cohort)
Scholar, Touhou-themed

Tier 3
Corrupted, turn into a gooey monster over time, mentally and physically

Borderline Tier 3-4
Disciple of Anima, a non-vancian caster that manipulates the souls of others

Tier 4
Mind-Filcher, a thief of minds, among other things
Plague Doctor, a non-magical healer and poison expert by Circle of Life
Z-Fighter, straight out of Dragon Ball Z


Also, I'm thinking of collecting Vestiges, considering Binder stuff does not have a compendium yet. Besides, I collected half the stuff in the Martial Discipline Compendium just days before it was made and posted it in here, so maybe someone will take a hint and start up a Binder Compendium? :smalltongue:

To start with, this is what I've got so far:
Shami-Amoure, Lady of Delights (http://www.imperatorkrpg.aaf.pl/3p-new-vestige-shami-amoure-lady-of-delights-vt7.htm) (level 8)
Dynamis, The Great Engine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179023) (level 6)
Team Fortress vestiges (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2741121)
Atrior, the Fiend That Was (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Custom_Vestiges_(3.5e_Other)) (level 4)
Several off D&D Wiki (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Vestiges)

Still only one off GitP and none off Minmaxboards, and I know there's tons on both. I no longer have a lot of time to search for all of them on my own like when I found all those ToB disciplines, but I think most of them should be easy to find. Easier if anyone knows where they're at!

Jormengand
2013-10-02, 03:39 PM
Could I have the Honour Guard, Mechanical Warrior and Worldspeaker tiered, please? Even though the Mechwar never really got finished, it'd still be nice.

Zaydos
2013-10-02, 03:55 PM
Well I think I made and posted 2 vestiges but they were made as part of some and never really got any review/critique, I should have some more on my comp somewhere but they were made when I was young and my concept of balance has evolved quite a bit from when I used 2 weapon fighter for balance math. I'll try and give a look for vestiges on the site.

Nykthog the Shadow that Lives (Vestige)
Level: 6th
Binding DC: 30 (26 for dragons and dragonblood creatures)
Legend: Some claim Nykthog as a god, worshipped by shadow worshipers and dragon cultists. Others claim he is merely a vestige and those who worship him as a god have become mistaken through some plot of the dark vestige. Neither are quite right. When the spiritual mass that became Nykthog ascended to godhood from the Astral Plane, a portion was left behind; his mortality shed. Even so it had touched godhood and could not simply die after its long stay as an astral spirit, but instead was pulled into the Void. Now it lurks seeking not to escape the Void but to spread it till it consumes all reality.
Special requirement: Nykthog can only be bound in shadowy or no illumination. In addition some object designed to create light (torch, tindertwig, sunrod) must be broken or destroyed in the presence of his seal before he will appear to make a pact.
Manifestation: Nykthog manifests as a 13 headed dragon made of inky darkness, so dark that it is darker than mere darkness, and almost an anti-light visible from close (10-ft) range even in absolute darkness. Each head is rotting and marred by great wounds, and as he speaks the flesh falls from each head in turn, eyes hanging loose and dropping out, before the bones tremble and fall, until only one head remains.
Sign: Your eyes become pure black, and a lattice of black lines runs across your entire body.
Influence: Nykthog’s influence manifests as a hatred of light and urge to extinguish sources of light.

Granted ability:
See in Darkness: You can see in darkness, even magical darkness, as easily as broad daylight.

Quench Light: As a standard action you may extinguish one light source within 120-ft. If it is a mundane light source the light flickers out and dies, although any flame remains burning. If it is a magical light source it is dispelled, and suppressed for 1 hour (in the case of magic items and other sources which reactivate on their own) as long as its CL is equal to or less than your EBL. Once you use this ability you cannot use it for another 5 rounds.

Shadow Evocation: You may imitate any damage dealing evocation with an instantaneous duration of 6th level or lower as a standard action. This remains a supernatural ability (and thus ignores SR), but is only 70% real allowing a Will save to reduce the effect as per the spell Shadow Evocation. Once you use this ability you cannot use it again for another 5 rounds.

Shadow Armor: You gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier. You lose this bonus if you wear heavy armor.

Jormund the Comatose God (Vestige)
Level: 5th
Binding DC: 24 (20 for dragons and dragonblood creatures)
Legend: Binders argue whether Jormund should even be classified as a vestige. He was first bound by mistake, intercepting the call for another vestige. Unlike most vestiges Jormund is not dead, merely trapped in a state between life and death, and he does not inhabit the Void but some realm between it and reality waiting till his deific form can be fully revived. Once he was a great draconic spirit who was slain in battle against champions of Tiamat, but Bahamut granted a portion of his own divine essence to his loyal servant preserving his life. Even so it was not enough to restore life to the dragon fully and now he sleeps a dreaming god.
Special requirement: Jormund will not make pacts with binders of a non-good alignment, and he will allow himself to be bound alongside Nykthog or Ashardalon immediately ending the bind if either of them are bound as well (unless the binder has the Ignore Special Requirements feat).
Manifestation: Jormund manifests as a hollow draconic skull made entirely out of steel. Blue smoke begins to billow out of the skull and makes a series of letters and pictographs to communicate the pact making process.
Sign: The binder’s skin takes on a metallic texture like that of polished steel. Their voice also changes having a bell-like ring to it.
Influence: Jormund’s influence incites rage against the spawn of Tiamat and requires you to attempt to slay any chromatic dragons or dragonblooded creatures you encounter.

Granted ability:
Cold and Force Resistance: While you have Jormund bound you gain Cold and Force resistance equal to your EBL.

Force Missile: As a standard action you may fire a missile of force that deals 1d8+1 damage per three binder levels. This missile has a range of 200-ft and strikes its target unerringly as long as you have Line of Sight and Line of Effect to the target.

Immunity to Fear: While Jormund is bound the binder gains immunity to fear, and whenever they would normally have to make a Will save against Fear they instead gain a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and saving throws for 5 rounds.

Relentless Will: When an attack would reduce you to 0 or lower hit points you may heal 2d4+1/2 binder level hp as an immediate action. Once you have used this ability you must wait 5 rounds before you use it again.

Edit: Behold the power of google!

Marack, the Fallen Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228917) by Circle of Life
Ahriman, the Darkness Beyond the Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195639) by ErrantX

Some Cthulhu Mythos vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68834) and more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68757) and more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69093) yet more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280) and the Unconquered Sun as a vestige (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101365) all by the Demented One.

Derpeth the Merciless (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55534) by SilverClawShift

2 Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42923) by JaronK

Shin megami tensei vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250949) by Vauron.

Zekharyah, Aggregate Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218150) by arguskos

Gygax, the Maker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74241) by Krimm Blackleaf

Extorius, the Legion Unfounded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149441) by lightningcat

Farbos, the Strangled Prince (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174318) by Roga

GiantITP Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62292) by varies, seem to be based on posters.

Praetor, the Dead Immortal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149591) by Vorpal Tribble

And that's all the time I have on this right now.

DeAnno
2013-10-02, 05:11 PM
Hi, I wrote up the Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222962) a couple years ago and looking back at it now was pretty cool. It has a lot of power, but very little complexity to play, so even though it generally outpowers T4 classes it doesn't really have the versatility of a T3 nor the nuclear weapons of a T2.

I'd be interested in seeing what you think of it.

Network
2013-10-02, 05:41 PM
Well, Rizban made the Dweller on the Threshold as a vestige in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296155) thread.

Also, if epic vestiges are of any interest to you, get a look at these (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15887215) by Kazyan. They are very well-done.

Morph Bark
2013-10-03, 03:05 AM
Hi, I wrote up the Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222962) a couple years ago and looking back at it now was pretty cool. It has a lot of power, but very little complexity to play, so even though it generally outpowers T4 classes it doesn't really have the versatility of a T3 nor the nuclear weapons of a T2.

I'd be interested in seeing what you think of it.

The Beast would fall into the same category as most of the Races of War base classes. Basically, it's as you say, a Tier 4 of much higher power. As such, I'd put it into a new sort of Tier entirely (which would be to Tier 4 as High Tier 3 is to Tier 3).


Could I have the Honour Guard, Mechanical Warrior and Worldspeaker tiered, please? Even though the Mechwar never really got finished, it'd still be nice.

I believe I've reviewed some of those before in this thread. The Honour Guard I personally find not up to snuff to the qualitative standard I like to hold classes to that I actually put on the Tier list.

Hadn't seen the Worldspeaker yet. Looks like you basically turned the Truenamer into a vancian caster?


Well I think I made and posted 2 vestiges but they were made as part of some and never really got any review/critique, I should have some more on my comp somewhere but they were made when I was young and my concept of balance has evolved quite a bit from when I used 2 weapon fighter for balance math. I'll try and give a look for vestiges on the site.

*snip*

Many thanks for these!


Well, Rizban made the Dweller on the Threshold as a vestige in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296155) thread.

Also, if epic vestiges are of any interest to you, get a look at these (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15887215) by Kazyan. They are very well-done.

Epic vestiges certainly interest me! I had thought of doing a feature on Binding magic, Epic material and Incarnum at some point, similar to Mystery Mondays and Fighter Fridays. Unlike ToB, those don't have their own compendium and I'd like to see some of their stuff gathered up, because they're very interesting.

Well, that and Homebrew "sorcerer/wizard fixes", similar to the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage.

peacenlove
2013-10-03, 03:34 AM
However, Shadow Magic is not entirely done with, folks! There are some more base classes, and to be honest, I want to ask you guys... what great Shadow Magic homebrew have you found? It's time to give it more love, and I'd definitely love to give it its own subsystem subsection in the beginning of the thread with some links to a lot of mysteries, feats and of course classes!

I would like to suggest my own past work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14190270#post14190270).
Beware the monsters are kinda complicated.

Jormengand
2013-10-03, 06:52 AM
I believe I've reviewed some of those before in this thread. The Honour Guard I personally find not up to snuff to the qualitative standard I like to hold classes to that I actually put on the Tier list.

Hadn't seen the Worldspeaker yet. Looks like you basically turned the Truenamer into a vancian caster?

What do I need to do to change the Honour Guard and/or Mechanical Warrior?

And what's vancian casting? I may have done something similar by accident, but I don't know.

Vauron
2013-10-03, 10:14 AM
Wizards and clerics use vancian casting.


I was going to mention my vestiges, though they have been linked already. Its kinda embarrassing that 'maybe a week' has turned out to be 'more than a year'. The fact that I completely forgot the binding DC is also a mistake on my part. DCs are up now, I may throw up some more vestiges later.

Jormengand
2013-10-04, 10:34 AM
Wizards and clerics use vancian casting.

Oh, okay. Well, the Worldspeaker is kinda like a sorcerer, only with truespeak instead of spells/day.

Morph Bark
2013-10-04, 11:38 AM
I would like to suggest my own past work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14190270#post14190270).
Beware the monsters are kinda complicated.

Handy that you provided a link to that rather than just your base class. I may include that in a Shadow Magic subsection. I really need to give the magic subsystems subsections a major update with all the many that exist, but that would be much more work than Tiering a whole bunch of classes.


What do I need to do to change the Honour Guard and/or Mechanical Warrior?

Oh, okay. Well, the Worldspeaker is kinda like a sorcerer, only with truespeak instead of spells/day.

I'll take a look at the Worldspeaker then and give it a review after this weekend, as I'll be gone for two days. Mind you, as always, I review nearly everything people ask for here, but don't Tier everything. Sound good? :smallsmile:

The Mechanical Warrior looked interesting to me, and if you finished it and made the presentation look sleeker, I may well Tier it. As you personally prefer to keep the various parts of it seperate (as in, I mean, that Right Arm devices can't go on the Left Arm), I'd probably houserule in that that is possible if a player of mine ever wanted to play one.

The Honour Guard is mostly just a few number increases here and there, pretty bland both in mechanics and fluff. I'd put it in Tier 5, probably, but the reason that Tier 5 on my list is so small is that I add to my list of requirements that it must be interesting and fun mechanically or fluff-wise. That's why, for instance, there's the Redshirt in Tier 6, all alone.


I was going to mention my vestiges, though they have been linked already. Its kinda embarrassing that 'maybe a week' has turned out to be 'more than a year'. The fact that I completely forgot the binding DC is also a mistake on my part. DCs are up now, I may throw up some more vestiges later.

Isn't it lovely when other people link your work, even if it was asked for by another beforehand? :smalltongue: Really though, I love it when people link stuff that isn't their own.

I'll continue with the vestiges after this weekend when I have the time. If anyone else has any to add to the ones that have already been linked, please, feel free to do so!

Zaydos
2013-10-04, 12:31 PM
Had a few moments, and saw I still had the google search for vestiges up so I went over the next page of results (did not actually read the material).

Three vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145264) by DragoonWraith

Ahathi, the Flowing Power (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65859) by AstralFire.

Reshar, Lord of Nine Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54640) by The Demented One. He seems to have made a lot of these.

The Death Books (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64750) seem to be a set of Death Note based items but there is a vestige in the OP named The Book, by TheLogman.

The Slender Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176757) as a vestige by TheGeckoKing.

Eloisa the Doublespeaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30722) by SilveryCord, truespeak based at a glance.

A few new vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467) by zagan. I seem to remember these vaguely as looking kind of cool.

I might find more later.

Avalon®
2013-10-04, 01:40 PM
I'll continue with the vestiges after this weekend when I have the time. If anyone else has any to add to the ones that have already been linked, please, feel free to do so!

I think I've got a couple more epic vestiges stashed around in some bookmarks. I'll post them up later after I've gotten some sleep.

Vauron
2013-10-04, 01:43 PM
Yes, The Demented One produced several vestiges. If you are going to continue searching, try checking the homebrewer's expanded signature thread.

EDIT:
This is all of The Demented One's stuff, the stuff from the aformentioned thread, and my stuff since I don't feel like checking all the links already posted.

The Demented One

Alric, the Burning Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84880)
Mythos Vestiges I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68757)
Mythos Vestiges II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68834)
Mythos Vestiges III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69093)
Mythos Vestiges IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280)
Psionic Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10945)
Reshar, Lord of the Nine Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54640)
Sol Invictus, the Unconquered Sun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5593060)
Three-Faced Luna, the Silvery Mistress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5598238)
Vox, the Faceless Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37802)

Mephibosheth
The Ancient Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15101272&postcount=9) - 8 vestiges based on Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys

TheLogman
The Log Man Vestige (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3465146&postcount=3)

Krimm Blackleaf
Gygax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74241)
Naphia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=587964)
Kurrothk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84859)

Stycotl
Seklas, the Destroyer (Rompin-Stompin Vestige; 8th level) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4483827#post4483827)
Seklas, the Lost (Vestige of a Forgotten God; 3rd level) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4481506#post4481506)

ErrantX
The Saint of Murder, Xionn Fellblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8121425&postcount=6) - A powerful rakshasa who is said to be the first to commit the act of murder.
Ahriman, the Darkness Beyond the Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195639) - The powerful hand of a now dead god who brings to the binder power over death and hatred for the elven race.

Zagan
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), lot of different thing but among them an incarnum and martial adept one.

Unosarta
Sirion, the Shining One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10990727&postcount=12)

LOTFfan
Azuvidexus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10169899&postcount=34)

Kazyan
More Epic Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15887215#post15887215)

Vauron
Shin megami tensei vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250949)

sirpercival
2013-10-04, 05:28 PM
bhu's cthulhu vestiges (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.0)
Rasputin, the mad monk (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8711)

Are you looking for other binding paraphenalia, or just vestiges?

Avalon®
2013-10-05, 03:29 AM
Here are some more vestiges:

Epic Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14214670) by Circle of Life and reposted by Zarthrax

Eberron, Syberys, and Khyber (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142137) - by Djinn in Tonic and CockroachTeaParty (scroll down the thread to find them)

Dame Tarrae Mare (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8121425) - also by Djinn in Tonic

Also note that both Xion Fellblade and Dame Tarrae Mare are made up of multiple vestiges that only work with the Seiðkona of the Iron Bands PrC that Djinn in Tonic made.

Seropaenes, The Damned Exalted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8016382&postcount=15) by Golden-Esque

Ancient Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15101272&postcount=9) by Mephibosheth (only accessible via the Vessel of the Ancient Gods PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15094260&postcount=8)

Myr'Shaejae and the Cabalist of the Heinous Realms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168897) by Golden-Esque and unosarta respectively.
The first allows you to kill any of the core classes and turn them into a temporary vestige while the second binds himself to avatars of the Lords of the Nine Hells

There are, IIRC, two more vestiges along the lines of Marack, the Fallen Guardian done by Circle of Life.

I'll search for them and add them in another post later.

Waker
2013-10-05, 04:14 AM
Never got this tiered, so here is my Mage Scholar.

johnbragg
2013-10-05, 06:13 AM
I nerfed the Core spellcasters.

Warrior-Pseudocleric
Pseudocleric-Adept
PseudoDruid-Adept
Spellmaster
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326

The they would all need and get better campaign-specific names. I just want the name to tell as much about the mechanics as possible. Besides, at this point it's close to impossible to name anything but a radically specific specialty class without recycling a name.

Network
2013-10-05, 11:43 AM
I suddenly remembered a vestige I saw in an old Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge. It's Noxius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8337459&postcount=109).

bekeleven
2013-10-07, 09:35 AM
Thanks for tiering the servant soul (I almost missed it), although as you may have gathered from our exchange in its thread, I disagree with your conclusions. Also, I would call it more "healer" than "sage".

Still, another pair of eyes is always welcome.

Morph Bark
2013-10-08, 03:46 AM
Are you looking for other binding paraphenalia, or just vestiges?

Primarily vestiges, but other things may be well worth the while, especially if there is anyone interested in setting up a listing of all the Binder-related stuff. I had been thinking of making a PrC version of this compendium as a sister project, but if I did that I would not make it with the Tiers, because for PrCs it is much harder to judge, and there are also a LOT more PrCs out there then there are Tiers. (I would, however, only accept PrCs that are tied to homebrew base classes, or to ToB/Incarnum/Binding/Shadow Magic/Truenaming.)


There are, IIRC, two more vestiges along the lines of Marack, the Fallen Guardian done by Circle of Life.

I'll search for them and add them in another post later.

Thank you. :smallsmile:


I nerfed the Core spellcasters.

Warrior-Pseudocleric
Pseudocleric-Adept
PseudoDruid-Adept
Spellmaster
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326

To be honest, I really find those to be more quick-fixes than actual classes, personally. There's nothing wrong with that, as that's what you set out to do, but they're not the thing for this.


Thanks for tiering the servant soul (I almost missed it), although as you may have gathered from our exchange in its thread, I disagree with your conclusions. Also, I would call it more "healer" than "sage".

Still, another pair of eyes is always welcome.

I may move it to a more solid Tier later, but for now it's where it's at. I missed adding in a Healer tag though, thanks for the catch. The Sage tag is meant for classes with a lot of Knowledge-related skills and Int-focus, and/or class abilities that really help getting knowledge (Bardic Knowledge, Divinations). Since the Servant Soul has the former, it has that tag.

And you're welcome. :smallsmile:

johnbragg
2013-10-08, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
I nerfed the Core spellcasters.

Warrior-Pseudocleric
Pseudocleric-Adept
PseudoDruid-Adept
Spellmaster
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326



To be honest, I really find those to be more quick-fixes than actual classes, personally. There's nothing wrong with that, as that's what you set out to do, but they're not the thing for this.

They are quick fixes*. I was aiming at stuff as easy to understand as E6. I thought they'd fit into post 4, the Fix classes. I'm pretty sure that an NPC Warrior plus turn undead plus one cleric spell/day/spell level, chosen from four domain spells per spell level, is Tier 3 (or maybe 4). The NPC Adept plus all that, I'm not as sure about.

* Except the Spellmaster, which is just a mess that needs rebuilding

Avalon®
2013-10-08, 10:53 AM
Thank you. :smallsmile:

As promised:

Iulian, Champion of the Doomed Citadel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229187)
Yusei, the Dichotomy of Nature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229142)

Alabenson
2013-10-08, 08:50 PM
When you have an opportunity, could you please Tier my Nightblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307331) class?

Morph Bark
2013-10-12, 09:44 AM
The Vestigal Sub-Compendium
Many people have created vestiges over the years. About a year ago, I collected a whole bunch of links to homebrew vestiges, gathering over 80, but lost them in a crash. With some help, these below have been gathered up again for your perusal. If you wish to create vestiges of your own, here you can find part one (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060324a) and part two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a) of the WotC articles on vestige creation. The official article about Epic binders that used to be on there site is sadly no longer there, but a copy can still be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9589080&postcount=6).

Please note that there are several versions of the Cthulhu mythos vestiges: one set created by bhu, one set created by The Demented One, and several others. Bkdubs123 is also known by Ziegander. Other sets of vestiges based on other media include Kingdom Hearts' Organization XIII (additional info here (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227946#comment-13227946)) and Final Fantasy's final bosses.


Level 1
Banjo, Master of Song (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228561#comment-13228561), DC 15, SR No, by Anonymous
Banjo, the Puppet God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726), DC 15, SR No, by Cicciograna
Bartleby, the Scrivener (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234746#comment-13234746), DC 18, SR No, by silver_bulette
Botis, the Maker Unmade (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234876#comment-13234876), DC 15, SR No, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Charn, the Hare (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228456#comment-13228456), DC 15, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Chinua, the Wolf (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227881#comment-13227881), DC 15, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Deperth, the Merciless (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55534), DC 40, SR No, by SilverClawShift
Dromilius, the Hivemind Triumphant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10945), DC 15, SR No, by The Demented One
Eloisa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30722), DC 15, SR No, by SilveryCord
Felistrius, Waking Nightmare (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228036#comment-13228036), DC 15, SR No, by Bkdubs123
Hanasa, Butterfly in the Willows (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235801#comment-13235801), DC 15, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Hathor, the Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250337), DC 13, SR No, by Madara
Jumbo Cactaur, the Lord of Living Cactus (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229176#comment-13229176), DC 20, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Kurou, the Once and Future Magius (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235231#comment-13235231), DC 21, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Pevak, the Stone Worm (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236031#comment-13236031), DC 15, SR No, by journeyman777
Quasimodo (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234756#comment-13234756), DC 15, SR Yes, by bill_lumberg
Ral, the Flower of Peace (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228221#comment-13228221), DC 14, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Rhogog, the Bearer of the Cup of the Blood of the Ancients (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280), DC 17, SR No, by The Demented One
Ultros, Squid Supreme (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1051726), DC 17, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Winifred, the Sacrifice of Curiosity (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229026#comment-13229026), DC 20, SR Yes, by Th_ar_al
Xaxox, What Lies Beyond (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229351#comment-13229351), DC 16, SR No, by Lord_yy
Yonar, the River (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227796#comment-13227796), DC 17, SR No, by Anonymous
Zepar, the Time Mummy (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234456#comment-13234456), DC 20, SR No, by im_hiding_in_your_closet


Level 2
Alchohol, Bearer of Ambrosia (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235881#comment-13235881), DC 15, SR Yes, by emperortopaz
Amidamaru, the Bloody Blade (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236341#comment-13236341), DC 20, SR Yes, by aleolus
Anagravia, the All-Encompassing Hand (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228376#comment-13228376), DC 20, SR Yes, by Mysticaloctopus
Basatan, the Scuttling Cancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280), DC 18, SR No, by The Demented One
BazRorInSi, the Four who became One (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234576#comment-13234576), DC 16, SR Yes, by the_crimson_dawn
Beltet, the Librarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10299), DC 21, SR Yes, by Fax Celestis
Bhaal, God of Murder (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229231#comment-13229231), DC 25, SR Yes, by Gooder101
Core, the Guiding Light (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3479380&postcount=392), DC 10, SR Yes, by one of SilverClawShift's party members
Davi, the Trickster (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235246#comment-13235246), DC 18, SR No, by journeyman777
Deku, the Tree (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250337), DC 17, SR No, by Madara
Denam, the Pleading Companion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), DC 18, SR Yes, by zagan
Dorun, the Mountain (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227491#comment-13227491), DC 17, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Elan, the Dashing Melody (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726), DC 20, SR Yes, by Cicciograna
(The) Fool (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229096#comment-13229096), DC 20, SR No, by Hida_Jiremi
(The) Green Lady (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2h3qh?The-Green-Lady#13), DC 17, SR Yes, by James Jacobs (then Paizo Editor-in-Chief)
Heisenberg, the Corroded Chemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16333509), DC 23, SR Yes, by Temotei
(The) High Priestess (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229136#comment-13229136), DC 19, SR Yes, by Hida_Jiremi
Igor, Craftsman of Souls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250949), DC 18, SR Yes, by Vauron
Link, the Hero of Time (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235651#comment-13235651), DC 18, SR Yes, by webjici
Marcos, the Eternal Painter (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Marcos_(3.5e_Vestige)), DC 25, SR No, by Gruegirl
Nahum, the Last of Colour Touched (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227861#comment-13227861), DC 18, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Neelia Niuk, Neverending Will (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243021), DC 19, SR Yes, by Germille
Nevharath, Last Thought (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235361#comment-13235361), DC 17, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Pun-Pun, Lord of the Powergamers (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227786#comment-13227786), DC 20, SR Yes, by mysticaloctopus
Remarro, the Candid Canvas (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228276#comment-13228276), DC 20, SR Yes, by BKdubs123
Schala, Zeal's Heart (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228946#comment-13228946), DC 17, SR No, by Edge_of_Oblivion
Serph, Varuna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250949), DC 18, SR Yes, by Vauron
Sindalla, the Cat Queen (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228251#comment-13228251), DC 20, SR No, by Anonymous
Solovem, Apprentice of the Master of Nine (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228901#comment-13228901), DC 20, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Vaestum, Brother of Vision (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234761#comment-13234761), DC 19, SR No, for_mandalore
Vox, the Faceless Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37802), DC 15, SR No, by The Demented One
Vulnan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2526623#post2526623), DC 15, SR No, by JaronK
Yorinaga, the Black Wave (http://community.wizards.com/comment/37564246#comment-37564246), DC 18, SR Yes, by the_crimson_dawn
Zekharyah, Aggregate Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218150), DC 17, SR No, by arguskos


Level 3
Ahriman, the Darkness Beyond the Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195639), DC 20, SR Yes, by ErrantX
Airutera, Spirit of the Island (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229036#comment-13229036), DC 24, SR Yes, by th_ar_al
Apollyon, the Proud-Brought Law (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236081#comment-13236081), DC 20, SR Yes, by bill_lumberg
Atlacha-Nacha, the Spider God (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 20, SR No, by bhu
Aramant, the Martyr’s Martyr (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228021#comment-13228021), Dc 19, SR No, by Bkdubs123
Bandelaros, the Soul Thief (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228031#comment-13228031), DC 21, SR Yes, by BKdubs123
Beldinas, the Forsaken Priest (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227556#comment-13227556), DC 22, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Belkar, Death's Li'l Helper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726), DC 25, SR Yes, by Cicciograna
Bilopol, Love Betrayed (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236546#comment-13236546), DC 20, SR No, by wolfpunk
Cles, the Pactmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), DC 20, SR Yes, by zagan
Frigere, the the Darkness Within (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236116#comment-13236116), DC 23, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Fukiyo, Skydaughter (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235831#comment-13235831), DC 17, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Gamigin, the Inexorable (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235931#comment-13235931), DC DC 20, SR No, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Hessesselen, Steam Lord (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227676#comment-13227676), DC 22, SR No, by Sarlax
Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson Discarded (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227791#comment-13227791), DC 19, SR Yes, by Bukowski
Josh, the Oft Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145037), DC 18, SR Yes, by Thrantar
Kalak, the Fallen King (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227431#comment-13227431), DC 20, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Ladut, the Small Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), DC 20, SR No, by zagan
Leisor, the Lifefont (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234791#comment-13234791), DC 22, SR Yes, by for_mandalore
Lorranyn, Bringer of Feathered Death (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228106#comment-13228106), DC 25, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Maanzecorian, Keeper of Secrets (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228746#comment-13228746), DC 21, SR Yes, by Lord_yy
(The) Magician (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229101#comment-13229101), DC 22, SR Yes, by Hida_Jiremi
Marack, the Fallen Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228917), DC 23, SR Yes, by Circle of Life
Mario, the Plucky Plumber (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228581#comment-13228581), DC 22, SR Yes, by mysticaloctopus
Myung, the Bright Sohei (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235881#comment-13235881), DC 20, SR No, by emperortopaz
Nathos, Grandmaster Tactician (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235246#comment-13235246), DC 20, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Neryssys, Last Quintessential Misstress (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234651#comment-13234651), DC 20, SR No, by webjici
Nicomas, the Undying (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42923), DC 20, SR No, by JaronK
Rhomendal, Silenced Echo of Legend (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235411#comment-13235411), DC 15, SR No, by journeyman777
Saamneel, the Arogant Totem (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229316#comment-13229316), DC 18, SR Yes, by Fnordbear
Salagora, Mother of Undeath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13285163&postcount=4), DC 21, SR Yes, by JoshuaZ
Scyllea, All-Mother (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227756#comment-13227756), DC 24, SR Yes, by Katarl
Seklas, the Lost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4481506), DC 25, SR Yes, by Stycotl
Shorty, the Stalwart Goblin (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228656#comment-13228656), DC 20, SR Yes, by mysticaloctopus [Silver]
Sirrus and Achenar, the Bookbound Brothers (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235641#comment-13235641), DC 20, SR Yes, by im_hiding_in_your_closet (two vestiges)
Starscream, the Everspark (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234556#comment-13234556), DC 31, SR Yes, by the_crimson_dawn
Sussurus, The Speaker of the Silence (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228386#comment-13228386), DC 23, SR Yes, by Mysticaloctopus
Taratai, the Dream that Was (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10945), DC 20, SR Yes, by The Demented One
Theodoroosevelt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8718476&postcount=6), DC 20, SR No, by Glimbur
Vector Prime, Preserver of Time (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234681#comment-13234681), DC 22, SR Yes, by japan_the_cougar
WolfStar, The False Prophet (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229186#comment-13229186), DC 22, SR Yes, by Edge_of_Oblivion


Level 4
Achilles, Son of Peleus (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228836#comment-13228836), DC 22, SR No, by Anonymous
Aeon, the Guardian of Time (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236396#comment-13236396), DC 20, SR Yes, by webjici
Ahathi, the Flowing Power (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65859), DC 25, SR Yes, by AstralFire
Atrior, the Fiend That Was (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Custom_Vestiges_(3.5e_Other)), DC 23, SR Yes, by Geth
Bhrigus, the Storm that Was (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227816#comment-13227816), DC 25, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Blaine, the Terror Train (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234906#comment-13234906), DC 28, SR Yes, by edge_of_oblivion
Carbuncle, the Creation Forgotten (http://community.wizards.com/comment/27829331#comment-27829331), DC 26, SR Yes, by allegra
(The) Demon Dancing in the Moon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325277), DC 21, SR Yes, by Xefas
Eihort, the God of the Labyrinth (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 22, SR No, by bhu
Erythnul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12396054&postcount=13), DC 22, SR Yes, by Xefas
Farbos, the Strangled Prince (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174318), DC 25, SR Yes, by Roga
Fharlanghn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12396054&postcount=13), DC 22, SR Yes, by Xefas
Gazaeodos, the Caller of Chaos (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234771#comment-13234771), DC 24, SR Yes, by for_mandalore
Heironeous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12374734), DC 23, SR Yes, by NudelJunge
Hextor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12391925&postcount=9), DC 22, SR Yes, by Xefas
Iulian, Champion of the Doomed Citadel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229187), DC 25, SR Yes, by Circle of Life
Jack of the Lantern (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?177691-Vestige-of-Halloween), DC 21, SR Yes, by Siegfried Niemand
Jamie, the Empty Child (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228231#comment-13228231), DC 22, SR No, by mysticaloctopus [Silver]
Jershio, Brother of Seals (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234761#comment-13234761), DC 24, SR No, for_mandalore
Juiblex, the Faceless Lord (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227521#comment-13227521), DC 20, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Kolomaq, the Beast of the Shadows (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236141#comment-13236141), DC 22, SR Yes, by bill_lumberg
K'yorl, Dark Betrayer (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228681#comment-13228681), DC 27, SR Yes, by Anguirus23
Makoma, the Greater (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236466#comment-13236466), DC 22, SR Yes, by quandi
Masamune, the Dream in Steel (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228966#comment-13228966), DC 20, SR Yes, by Edge_of_Oblivion
Medivh, the Last Guardian (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228241#comment-13228241), DC 22, SR No, by Borris
Midna, the Twilight Princess (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235651#comment-13235651), DC 21, SR Yes, by webjici
Nightmare, the Azure Knight (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229166#comment-13229166), DC 28, SR No, by Anonymous
Ordion, the Ever-Dying (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227626#comment-13227626), DC 22, SR Yes, by Lord_yy
Oriphal, Last of the First (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235351#comment-13235351), DC 25, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Ose, the Madman (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235936#comment-13235936), DC 21, SR No, by bill_lumberg
Philemon, Collective Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250949), DC 24, SR Yes, by Vauron
Recanne, the Hollowed Puppeteer (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227966#comment-13227966), DC 20, SR Yes, by Quandi
Samara, the Unwanted Child (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235881#comment-13235881), DC 23, SR No, by emperortopaz
Seropaenes, the Damned Exalted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8016382&postcount=15), DC 25, SR Yes, by Golden-Esque
Sirion, the Shining One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10990727&postcount=12), DC 21, SR Yes, by unosarta
Sitri, the Padishah of Passion (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235996#comment-13235996), DC 21, SR No, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Starshine, Red Blur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726), DC 23, SR Yes, by Cicciograna
TWiTCHY, the Lord of All Things Caffeine (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228306#comment-13228306), DC 21, SR No, by mysticaloctopus [Bronze]
Van Gorp, the Lord of the Flies (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236446#comment-13236446), DC 23, SR Yes, by runcdfirst
Xuchilbara, the Red Pyramid (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229271#comment-13229271), DC 22, SR Yes, by Cam_s
Yidhra, the Dream Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280), DC 22, SR No, by The Demented One
Yog-Sothoth, Keeper of the Gate (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227561#comment-13227561), DC 20, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Yorrish, the Tragic (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235726#comment-13235726), DC 25, SR No, by quicksilver57
Yusei, the Dichotomy of Nature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229142), DC 25, SR Yes, by Circle of Life
Zelda, the Devoted Ruler (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235651#comment-13235651), DC 20, SR Yes, by webjici
Zord, the First Emissary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), DC 22, SR No, by zagan


Level 5
Alexiel, the Organic Angel (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234686#comment-13234686), DC 30, SR Yes, by herr_krahe
Bastet (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
(The) Book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64750), DC 25, SR No, by TheLogman
Chiurses, the Writhing Womb (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234761#comment-13234761), DC 25, SR No, for_mandalore
Cthulhu, High Priest of the Old Ones (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227436#comment-13227436), DC 25, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Cybercontroller, the Perfectly Inhuman (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228246#comment-13228246), DC 24, SR No, by Mysticaloctopus
Daeriel, the Dauntless Body (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234791#comment-13234791), DC 26, SR Yes, by for_mandalore
Dragyn, the Student of Space (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145037), DC 23, SR Yes, by Thrantar
Durkon, Terror of the Dwarves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726), DC 25, SR Yes, by Cicciograna
Dweller on the Threshold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15778010&postcount=14), DC 25, SR Yes, by Rizban
Eiram Van Schaack, Limitless Grace (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243021), DC 22, SR Yes, by Germille
Gith, Liberator of the Astral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10945), DC 28, SR Yes, by The Demented One
Greenhilt, the Bald Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726), DC 27, SR No, by Cicciograna
Howlett, The Raging (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227866#comment-13227866), DC 27, SR Yes, by Wolfman1987
Ithaqua, the Wind Walker (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227796#comment-13227796), DC 27, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Ithaqua, the Wind Walker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64750), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Labac, Scion of the Flame (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228366#comment-13228366), DC 26, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Lurnem, the Broken Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), DC 25, SR Yes, by zagan
Moander, The Darkbringer (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227961#comment-13227961), DC 24, SR Yes, by Bukowski
Naminé, Memory-Stealer (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227876#comment-132278764), DC 22, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Nemo, the Dream Master (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228136#comment-13228136), DC 26, SR Yes, by BKdubs123
Noxius, the Immortal Plague (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8337459&postcount=109), DC 25, SR No, by Akal Saris
Pangloss, the Perfected Philosopher (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228701#comment-13228701), DC 22, SR No, by Anonymous
Rahovart, Guide to Hell (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234461#comment-13234461), DC 23, SR Yes, by bill_lumberg
Rasputin, the Mad Monk (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8711), DC 25, SR Yes, by Agita
Selena, the Corporeal Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3479380&postcount=392), DC 30, SR Yes, by one of SilverClawShift's party members
Shub-Niggurath, the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227786#comment-13227786), DC 25, SR Yes, by mysticaloctopus
Theliram, the Imperfect Form (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), DC 25, SR Yes, by zagan
Tsathoggua, the Sleeper of N'Kai (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Valmar, the Incomplete Archdevil (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228951#comment-13228951), DC 25, SR No, by Edge_of_Oblivion
Wazuki, Penumbra of Predestination (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236266#comment-13236266), DC 26, SR Yes, by edge_of_oblivion
Yig, the Father of Serpents (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu


Level 6
Abhoth, the Source of Uncleanliness (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Alacritus, the Speed of Light (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228831#comment-13228831), DC 27, SR No, by Utilitarian
Alric, the Burning Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84880), DC 30, SR Yes, by The Demented One
Astaroth, the Mighty Duke (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227621#comment-13227621), DC 26, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Axel, the Flurry of Dancing Flames (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228331#comment-13228331), DC 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
(The) Black Host (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236491#comment-13236491), DC 28, SR Yes, by quandi
Chattur'gha, Strength Beyond the Stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145264), DC 22, SR Yes, by DragoonWraith
Cthulhu, the Dreamer at R'lyeh (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Demyx, the Melodious Nocturne (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228176#comment-13228176), DV 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
Dynamis, the Great Engine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179023), DC 25, SR Yes, by EdroGrimshell
Edward Elric, He Who Glimpsed The Truth (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234881#comment-13234881), DC 25, SR Yes, by periscope
Erzham, Brother of Destruction (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234761#comment-13234761), DC 29, SR No, for_mandalore
Exdeath, Envoy of Oblivion (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229051#comment-13229051), DC 29, SR Yes, by Edge_of_Oblivion
Extorius, the Legion Unfounded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149441), DC 27, SR No, by lightningcat
Furfur, the Voice in the Storm (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235921#comment-13235921), DC 26, SR No, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Ganon, the King of Evil (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235651#comment-13235651), DC 25, SR Yes, by webjici
Ghroth, the Harbinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280), DC 28, SR No, by The Demented One
Glycon, the Miracle Monger (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235701#comment-13235701), DC 26, SR Yes, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Gygax, the Master of Games (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228626#comment-13228626), DC 26, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Hastur, the Unspeakable One (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227776#comment-13227776), DC 25, SR No, by Anonymous
Hastur, He Whose Name Must Not Be Spoken (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Hypnos (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Kurrothk, the Penitent Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84859), DC 30, SR Yes, by Krimm_Blackleaf
Larxene, the Savage Nymph (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228066#comment-13228066), DC 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
Leirus, Heritor of the Darkstalker (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235246#comment-13235246), DC 27, SR Yes, by journeyman777
Lexaeus, the Silent Hero (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228406#comment-13228406), DC 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
Link, the Hero of Time (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228596#comment-13228596), DC 30, SR Yes, by Anonymous [Bronze]
Luxord, the Gambler of Fate (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228816#comment-13228816), DC 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
Mordiggian, the Charnel God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280), DC 28, SR Yes, by The Demented One
Naphia, the Forlorn Lady (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=587964), DC 27, SR Yes, by Krimm_Blackleaf
Nodens, Lord of the Great Abyss (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 30, SR No, by bhu
Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227936#comment-13227936), DC 26, SR No, by Mysticaloctopus
Ourar, Mother Ocean (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227796#comment-13227796), DC 27, SR Yes, by Anonymous
R-X-Sixty-Six-Y, Entropy's Exile (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228976#comment-13228976), DC 27, SR Yes, by Edge_of_Oblivion
Reya, Scion of the Jade Phoenix (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236036#comment-13236036), DC 25, SR No, by mercurius
Samael, the Poison of God (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234856#comment-13234856), DC 26, SR Yes, by bill_lumberg
Szhublox, The Living Sword (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236566#comment-13236566), DC 26, SR Yes, by wolfpunk
Tulzscha, the Green Flame (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227936#comment-13227936), DC 22, SR No, by Mysticaloctopus
Ubbo-Sathla, the Unbegotten Source (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Ulyaoth, the Knowledge Beyond the Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145264), DC 25, SR Yes, by DragoonWraith
Vaarsuvius, Ultimate Arcane Power (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726), DC 30, SR Yes, by Cicciograna
Vexen, the Chilly Academix (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228451#comment-13228451), DC 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
Vorvadoss, He Who Waiteth in the Outer Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280), DC 28, SR No, by The Demented One
Xaldin, the Whirlwind Lance (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229191#comment-13229191), DC 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
Xel'lotath, the Whispering Madness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145264), DC 30, SR Yes, by DragoonWraith
Xigbar, the Freeshooter (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228001#comment-13228001), DC20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity
Yidhra, the Dream Witch (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 25, SR No, by bhu
Zeromus, the Hatred Made Flesh (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228961#comment-13228961), DC 31, SR No, by Edge_of_Oblivion,
Zexion, the Cloaked Schemer (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228741#comment-13228741), DC 20, SR Yes, by psychic_affinity


Level 7
Attis, the Undying Defender (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235086#comment-13235086), DC 30, SR Yes, by risada
Azuvidexus, the Hunger Awaiting Form (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10169899&postcount=34), DC 32, SR Yes, by LOTRfan
Bokonon, the Liar (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235746#comment-13235746), DC 31, SR No, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Cybele, Nature's Maiden (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235086#comment-13235086), DC 30, SR Yes, by risada
Daoloth, the Render of Veils (Level 8
Aegaea, Our Maiden who Slumbers (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228026#comment-13228026), DC 38, SR No, by Bkdubs123
ASCII, the Written Lord of Language (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228361#comment-13228361), DC 40, SR Yes, by Mysticaloctopus
(The) Crimson King (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234711#comment-13234711), DC 38, SR Yes, by phantomsheart
D'Arr Kayne, the Spellfire Paragon (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234796#comment-13234796), DC 35, SR Yes, by nephelim
Daeminthos, the Mind's Reflection (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135259), DC 30, SR Yes, by Golden-Esque's friend
DALEK, SU-PREME RU-LER OF THE UN-I-VERSE (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228196#comment-13228196), DC 35, SR Yes, by Mysticaloctopus
(The) Dark Plea, Stain on the Future (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10945), DC 32, SR Yes, by The Demented One
Dark Seraphim, the Slayer of Gods (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229256#comment-13229256), DC 37, SR Yes, by Cam_s
Eclipse, the Godslayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145037), DC 39, SR No, by Thrantar
Esphia, the Hellguard (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Esphia_(3.5e_Vestige)), DC 30, SR Yes, by Lord Dhazriel
Ghroth, the Harbinger (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 30, SR No, by bhu
Glasya Labolas, the Blood Shame (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235511#comment-13235511), DC 35, SR Yes, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
(The) Gurgling God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138921), DC 40, SR Yes, by Djinn_in_Tonic
Gygax, the Maker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74241), DC 34, SR Yes, by Krimm_Blackleaf
Jexrul, The Soul of Hell (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234791#comment-13234791), DC 31, SR Yes, by for_mandalore
Kaldar, Tainted Master (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13229376#comment-13229376), DC 36, SR Yes, by Kaldar_the_Summoner
Kefka, the Mad Clown (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227601#comment-13227601), DC 33, SR Yes, by Callae
(The) King in Yellow (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227476#comment-13227476), DC 35, SR Yes, by Anonymous
Lavos, the Falling Flame (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228956#comment-13228956), Dc 35. SR No, by Edge_of_Oblivion
Lum, the Mad (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227636#comment-13227636), DC 37, SR Yes, by Lord_yy
Marbas, the Warper and Weaver (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236176#comment-13236176), DC 30, SR No, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Mulhoon, the Tides of Time (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228081#comment-13228081), DC 32, SR Yes, by Bkdubs123
Reshar, Lord of the Nine Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54640), DC 34, SR No, by The Demented One
Rufo, Spurned Vessel of Chaos (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228006#comment-13228006), DC 33, SR Yes, by Speeblefreak
Seradess, the Envoy in Exile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10945), DC 35, SR Yes, by The Demented One
Shami-Amoure, the Lady of Delights (http://www.imperatorkrpg.aaf.pl/3p-new-vestige-shami-amoure-lady-of-delights-vt7.htm), DC 35, SR No, by ImperatorK
(The) Slender Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176757), DC 40, SR Yes, by TheGeckoKing
Sol Invictus, the Unconquered Sun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101365), DC 40, SR Yes, by The Demented One
Sprug, the Ungod (http://community.wizards.com/comment/30261961#comment-30261961), DC 31, SR Yes, by aryathanjiil
Streben, the Archangel of Quests (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145037), DC 31, SR No, by Thrantar
Sukhaagne, the Six from Shadow (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13237036#comment-13237036), DC 35, SR Yes, by salazark94210
Tevler, the Golden Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3479380&postcount=392), DC 33, SR Yes, by one of SilverClawShift's party members
Ubbo-Sathla, the Unbegotten Source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85280), DC 40, SR No, by The Demented One
Vader, the Dark Side (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234941#comment-13234941), DC 35, SR Yes, by im_hiding_in_your_closet
Vontavius Doomaliy, the Doomed One (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234911#comment-13234911), DC 45, SR Yes, by viktor_von_doom
Yog-Sothoth, the Lurker at the Threshold (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.20), DC 35, SR No, by bhu
Yurla, Mother Moon (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227951#comment-13227951), DC 30, SR Yes, by Anonymous


Epic
Azathoth, the Daemon Sultan (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4007.0), by bhu
Eberron, the Dragon Within (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7900544&postcount=22), by Djinn_in_Tonic
Greyhawk (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228846#comment-13228846), by Anonymous
Hakh, He Who Is Struck By All Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15887215), by Kazyan
Magolthen, Fallen Aspect of Bahamut (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14214670), by Circle of Life
Prometheus, Hound of the Godslayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14214670), by Circle of Life
Quarte, the Elemental Fusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153467), by zagan
Sebastian Deathbane (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234501#comment-13234501), by mabelrode
Sharrash, the Awakened Void (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14214670), by Circle of Life
Siberys, the Dragon Above (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7901679&postcount=27), by Djinn_in_Tonic
Sollobrex, The One In Place of Personhood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15887215), by Kazyan
Tempus, the Eternal Watcher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14214670), by Circle of Life
Teyadetra, Perfect No More (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15887215), by Kazyan
Yekumnaulh, The Avatar of the Matrices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15887215), by Kazyan
Ytore, Lady of the Weave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14214670), by Circle of Life


Official Vestiges not in Tome of Magic
Cityscape Web Enhancement, Part 2: Astaroth, Unjustly Fallen, and Desharis (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).
Class Chronicles: Binders: Zceryll (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718).
Design and Development article: Vanus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a).
Dragon Magic: Ashardalon (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/forgotten-realmsd20/wikis/ashardalon).
Dragon #341: Kas (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/forgotten-realmsd20/wikis/kas) and Primus (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/forgotten-realmsd20/wikis/primus).
Dragon #357: Ansitif (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/forgotten-realmsd20/wikis/ansitif), Astaroth (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/forgotten-realmsd20/wikis/astaroth) and Cabiri (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/forgotten-realmsd20/wikis/cabiri).
Dungeon #148: Ahazu (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/forgotten-realmsd20/wikis/ahazu).
Mind's Eye article: Arete, the Triad, and Abysm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a).


[U]OTHER MATERIAL

PrCs that grant access to new vestiges
Archon of the Forsaken (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83767), by Stycotl
Binder of the Dark (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10274.0), by TravelLog
Cabalist of the Heinous Realms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9387958#post9387958), by unosarta
Mischief Maker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9710780#post9710780), by Derjuin
Seidkona of the Iron Bands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8121425), by Djinn_in_Tonic
Vessel of the Ancient Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15094260#post15094260), by Mephibosheth


Other PrCs
Apostle of the Green Lady (http://www.scribd.com/doc/54171655/Apostle-of-the-Green-Lady), by James Jacobs (then Paizo Editor-in-Chief)
(The) Binder of the Myriad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216513), by sreservoir
Devotee of Leraje (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193789), by Thrantar
Initiate of the Sublime Void (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2176.0), by Garryl
Knight of Andra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193789), by Thrantar
Midnight Occultist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157493), by DragoonWraith
Myr'Shaejae (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9386220&postcount=5), by Golden-Esque
Pact Bargainer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277395), by Blueiji
Pact Scholar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84757), by The Demented One
Scion of Malphas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218836), by Ramza00
Soulshattered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182942), by Golden-Esque
Twice-Claimed Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190454), by MammonAzrael
Vestige Cultist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69429), by The Demented One
Vestige Scholar of Vecna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193789), by Thrantar
Vestige Summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171823), by zagan
Voidkeeper [Epic] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13462013&postcount=52), by Realms of Chaos


Alternative Class Features
Binder of the Azure (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3996.0), by Prime32
Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231379), by Amechra
Faint Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296063), by Kazyan


Feats
Blood Pact (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234771#comment-13234771), by for_mandalore
Expanded Bind Vestige feat (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9281.0), by Amechra
Mindlink Networking (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9878.0), by Amechra
Student of Planar History (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145037), by Thrantar
Touched by Vestige feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245060), by JoshuaZ
Vestige fusion feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172251), by Xefas


Special
Varahal, the Vestige City (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141778) by Boci
Vestigial Domains (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235056#comment-13235056), by im_hiding_in_your_closet


Yet To Include
Avengers Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308176)
Dungeon Wiki Vestiges (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Vestiges)
GiantITP Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3465022)
TDO Mythos 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68757)
TDO Mythos 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68834)
TDO Mythos 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69093)
Team Fortress Vestiges (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2741121)
WotC Forums Vestiges (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1051726) (posts done: 1-401, 1402-1841)
- True Alchemy (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13228426#comment-13228426)
- Two opposites (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13236246#comment-13236246)
- Index 1 (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1051726?page=11) (not sure if complete)
- Index 2 (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235551#comment-13235551) (not sure if complete)
- Index 3 (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235561#comment-13235561) (not sure if complete)
- Index 4 (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13235576#comment-13235576) (not sure if complete)
- Grading (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13234511#comment-13234511)
GITP members as vestiges:
link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?390104-PF-GitP-Regulars-as-Vestiges!)!

Morph Bark
2013-10-12, 03:35 PM
Post reserved in case I might need it for the list's continuation, similarly to the collection of martial disciplines, which also couldn't fit into a single post. If you have any Vestiges that aren't yet in this list, feel free to post a link to them in this thread.

Avalon®
2013-10-13, 12:30 PM
Minor quibble. Zarthas just compiled those vestiges. They were made by Circle of Life

Vauron
2013-10-13, 02:17 PM
The link for Dispater is broken.

How do you want to cite the WOTC forums vestiges? I was gonna compile a few pages, but all the posters are labeled as 'zombiegleemax'.

Edit: Scrolled further down, apparently they aren't all zombiegleemax, but I suspect that that isn't the actual name of any of the posters there.

Network
2013-10-13, 02:46 PM
I suddenly remembered a vestige I saw in an old Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge. It's Noxius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8337459&postcount=109).
It's probably a mistake of your part, but you didn't put him in the list

Morph Bark
2013-10-13, 03:06 PM
Minor quibble. Zarthas just compiled those vestiges. They were made by Circle of Life

Amended.


The link for Dispater is broken.

How do you want to cite the WOTC forums vestiges? I was gonna compile a few pages, but all the posters are labeled as 'zombiegleemax'.

Edit: Scrolled further down, apparently they aren't all zombiegleemax, but I suspect that that isn't the actual name of any of the posters there.

I decided to remove Dispater and the other archdevils, on account of being only accessible to one PrC, and have added the PrC to the list instead.

The WotC Vestiges in posts by "zombiegleemax" will be marked as "by Anonymous".


It's probably a mistake of your part, but you didn't put him in the list

Simply missed it. Will add.


Y'know, thinking about it, I've never seen a homebrew base class that uses binding. Well, other than the Dabblemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8919949), but that one is a basket case.

Also, there are currently several threads about making Tier 1 mundane classes, most notably by Ziegander (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307832) as an outflow of Grod's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307285), which is a twist on his earlier Legend classes (one which is mostly a Fighter Fix, and a later one that is a High Tier 3 combatant). Right now I'm unsure whether they are Tier 1 as aimed for, Tier 2 due to lack of extensive content (might not be necessary to make it Tier 1) or High Tier 3 due to lack of gamebreakers/single-round encounter-enders.

Vauron
2013-10-13, 03:17 PM
The WotC Vestiges in posts by "zombiegleemax" will be marked as "by Anonymous".


Gotcha. Just started page 4, I'll post what I have once I finish ten pages. That should double the number of vestiges on the list easily.

Edit: Finished the first ten pages and sent the list to Morph Bark. I suggest that anyone inclined to do something similar not do as much in one sitting. The word 'the' doesn't even look like a word anymore to me.

Morph Bark
2013-10-14, 03:44 PM
Thank you very, very much Vauron. Your contribution is much appreciated and helps a lot. I'll start work from the back of that huge WotC thread so that we don't do overlapping work. Race ya to the middle!

(Also I amended the Thanks And Credits on the first page for all the wonderful people who've helped.)


Edit: Finished the first ten pages and sent the list to Morph Bark. I suggest that anyone inclined to do something similar not do as much in one sitting. The word 'the' doesn't even look like a word anymore to me.

Oh my, yes. Took me a week to do all the disciplines last year. I can tell you that I could talk about unarmed strikes and martial arts for a week!

Jormengand
2013-10-14, 04:04 PM
Oh my, yes. Took me a week to do all the disciplines last year. I can tell you that I could talk about unarmed strikes and martial arts for a week!

Please don't. You'd be incredibly (almost fatally) sleep-deprived by the end of it, not to mention the food and water...

(Yes, I take things too literally. Your point?)

Vauron
2013-10-14, 04:16 PM
I wont be compiling any pages for a while. I have less time on weekdays.

On an unrelated note, I suspect that level 6 is gonna get really bloated.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-14, 05:30 PM
Can you tier my temporalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16202421)? It's a class that manipulates time on a small scale, enough to be a distinguishing class feature without breaking a campaign. I'm thinking it's around tier 3, but it might be closer to 4.

Lix Lorn
2013-10-14, 05:35 PM
...I was just thinking about making a Time class... today... called the Temporalist...

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-14, 06:40 PM
...I was just thinking about making a Time class... today... called the Temporalist...

Did you get the idea from your future self, who saw it, traveled back, and told you about it?

Carl
2013-10-14, 07:21 PM
Lol.

Morph Bark: Hows the paladin project coming on? been looking forward to it for a bit, hope i don't sound lie i'm bugging you btw.

Gnomes2169
2013-10-15, 03:44 AM
...I was just thinking about making a Time class... today... called the Temporalist...

CALL IT A TIME LORD. GIVE IT A T.A.R.D.I.S!

Falco1029
2013-10-15, 04:29 AM
Can you tier my Summoner? It's in my signature. I was aiming for a High Tier 3 with it, but it may be a little above that, and want a second opinion.

toapat
2013-10-15, 07:12 AM
Lol.

Morph Bark: Hows the paladin project coming on? been looking forward to it for a bit, hope i don't sound lie i'm bugging you btw.

i think morph subbed it with a binder vestige search

besides the fact that the GitP search is currently so non-functional that finding all the paladin reworks/pseudodins is near impossible because we cant return through the archives

Avalon®
2013-10-15, 07:27 AM
(Also I amended the Thanks And Credits on the first page for all the wonderful people who've helped.)

I'll also see if I can dig up a couple more Vestiges and binding PrCs for the list.

Morph Bark
2013-10-15, 08:11 AM
Please don't. You'd be incredibly (almost fatally) sleep-deprived by the end of it, not to mention the food and water...

(Yes, I take things too literally. Your point?)

MY SUSTENANCE IS THE SONG OF BATTLE, THE VISIONS OF THE GODS, AND GOOD STORYTELLING

(The amount of times I forgot to eat breakfast or lunch due to a good book or movie have been countless.)


I wont be compiling any pages for a while. I have less time on weekdays.

On an unrelated note, I suspect that level 6 is gonna get really bloated.

I had that feeling too. I personally have no time on weekends, so that's a fine coincidence. Perhaps as I tackle pages 41-45 there might be other people willing to claim some pages here or there? Who knows.


Can you tier my temporalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16202421)? It's a class that manipulates time on a small scale, enough to be a distinguishing class feature without breaking a campaign. I'm thinking it's around tier 3, but it might be closer to 4.

As it is, it looks more like a Tier 5 to me. It doesn't get nearly enough Powers/Talents, and the Powers it has are either a bit weak, or good later on and very powerful in the early levels, making it a bit of a one-trick pony in the beginning.


Morph Bark: Hows the paladin project coming on? been looking forward to it for a bit, hope i don't sound lie i'm bugging you btw.

i think morph subbed it with a binder vestige search

besides the fact that the GitP search is currently so non-functional that finding all the paladin reworks/pseudodins is near impossible because we cant return through the archives

Prettymuch, yeah. I've been wanting to do something for Binders since months, so I'm glad I could finally get to it.


CALL IT A TIME LORD. GIVE IT A T.A.R.D.I.S!

I approve.


Can you tier my Summoner? It's in my signature. I was aiming for a High Tier 3 with it, but it may be a little above that, and want a second opinion.

Hmmm, due to the Calling spells it's probably Tier 2, yeah. Also, take note that Shortened Summoning is worthless, as the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells take 1 round to cast, not a full-round action.


I'll also see if I can dig up a couple more Vestiges and binding PrCs for the list.

Sounds good. :smallsmile:

Savannah
2013-10-15, 08:32 AM
Your vestige list seems to be missing these three by SilverClawShift (well, technically SilverClawShift's group...): Core, the Guiding Light; Selena, the Corporeal Spirit; and Tevler, the Golden Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3479380&postcount=392).

Morph Bark
2013-10-15, 09:01 AM
Your vestige list seems to be missing these three by SilverClawShift (well, technically SilverClawShift's group...): Core, the Guiding Light; Selena, the Corporeal Spirit; and Tevler, the Golden Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3479380&postcount=392).

Adding them as soon as I return from the optician. (Time to get contacts and prescription sunglasses.)

I also found my old list of links again on an old external hard drive. I thus found thirteen more vestiges that weren't on the list yet, plus a whole bunch of other unfinished vestiges posted on Minmaxboards based on Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero.

Avalon®
2013-10-15, 09:47 AM
Didn't the minmaxboards also make vestiges out of the characters from BlazBlue?

Morph Bark
2013-10-15, 10:58 AM
Didn't the minmaxboards also make vestiges out of the characters from BlazBlue?

If so, I haven't been able to find them yet.

The Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero vestiges are here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=946.0). I currently haven't yet added them to the list due to how unfinished they are. Those that have their abilities finished could get an approximation of their level, and from there on a DC estimate is easy. Special Requirements would not be necessary for the general class-based ones, but would be required for the named characters, plus Prime32 has essentially already said that each of them requires that you are already bound to one of the class-based vestiges. (And as such, none of the named character vestiges should ever be below level 4, as you cannot bind multiple vestiges before level 8, and at level 8 the maximum level you can bind is 4 if you don't have the feat.)

I have, however, added a lot of other things, including official vestiges outside ToM, ACFs, some feats, and at least a dozen more other vestiges.

EDIT: Current count of Vestiges listed at levels 1-8 is 176.

Kazyan
2013-10-15, 01:21 PM
If 176 (!) isn't enough and you want more ACFs, I have a thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296063). Though I should go over it and do some rebalancing/proofreading.

sirpercival
2013-10-15, 04:58 PM
CALL IT A TIME LORD. GIVE IT A T.A.R.D.I.S!

My Chromancer prc for Gramarie can build a TARDIS.

Avalon®
2013-10-15, 09:18 PM
Seems I mistook the BlazBlue martial disciplines for vestiges.:smalltongue:

Anyway, I found a thread on the old BG forums that had a pdf of the old WoTC fan-made vestiges (from the Let's Make a Vestige thread).

Vestiges (http://www.scribd.com/doc/24397352/Lets-Make-Some-New-Vestiges-1)

Falco1029
2013-10-16, 12:09 AM
Hmmm, due to the Calling spells it's probably Tier 2, yeah. Also, take note that Shortened Summoning is worthless, as the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells take 1 round to cast, not a full-round action.

I'll reword that, thanks.

Morph Bark
2013-10-16, 06:25 AM
Vauron and others keeping up with the matters regarding the WotC Vestige thread: I've changed the numbers to reflect post numbers rather than page numbers, because a different amount of posts might be showing up per page for different people (I tend to have it set to the maximum amount, for instance). Posts 1-401 and posts 1602-1841 (the last post in the thread) have been checked.

At the bottom of the list of things to add I've also included links to some posts in that thread that gathered up links to all the Vestiges in that thread. I did that before I realized that all the links are now broken, so they're only good as cross-referential material, in case some Vestiges were missed or are no longer in that thread or were remade/renamed.


If 176 (!) isn't enough and you want more ACFs, I have a thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296063). Though I should go over it and do some rebalancing/proofreading.

Added it. Very nice concept.


Seems I mistook the BlazBlue martial disciplines for vestiges.:smalltongue:

Anyway, I found a thread on the old BG forums that had a pdf of the old WoTC fan-made vestiges (from the Let's Make a Vestige thread).

Vestiges (http://www.scribd.com/doc/24397352/Lets-Make-Some-New-Vestiges-1)

Cool. Shame the links no longer work, but that's a great effort that they did. I may add that as an additional thing. Otherwise, it's at least available through this thread thanks to you!

Avalon®
2013-10-16, 10:52 AM
Here's another batch of Binder and Vestige related stuff.

First some PrCs:
Apostle of the Green Lady (http://www.scribd.com/doc/54171655/Apostle-of-the-Green-Lady) by James Jacobs (then Paizo Editor-in-Chief)
Initiate of the Sublime Void (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2176.0) by Garryl
Scion of Malphas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218836) by Ramza00
Voidkeeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13462013&postcount=52) - Epic PrC by Realms of Chaos
Devotee of Leraje, Knight of Andra, Vestige Scholar of Vecna - Vestige Avatars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193789) by Thrantar
Twice-Claimed Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190454) by MammonAzrael
Pact Scholar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84757) by The Demented One
Vestige Cultist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69429) by The Demented One
Mischief Maker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9710780&postcount=7) by Derjuin
The Binder of the Myriad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216513) by sreservoir
Pact Bargainer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277395) by Blueiji

Base Class:
Blasphemous Preacher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75528) by Realms of Chaos

Feats:
Student of Planar History (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145037) by Thrantar
Touched by Vestige feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245060) by JoshuaZ

Vestiges:
Dragyn, the Student of Space; Josh, the Oft Dead; Streben, the Archangel of Quests; Eclipse, the Godslayer; Deworcin, Sorcerer Extraordinaire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145037) by Thrantar
Fey Vestiges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9710796&postcount=8) by Derjuin (only available via the Mischief Maker PrC)
Salagora, Mother of Undeath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13285163&postcount=4) by JoshuaZ
Heironeous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12374734&postcount=1) by NudelJunge
Hextor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12391925&postcount=9) by Xefas
Erythnul and Fharlanghn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12396054&postcount=13) by Xefas
Yavillin, King of Cataclysms and Daeminthos, the Mind's Reflection (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135259) by Golden-Esque
OotS Vestiges plus Banjo, the Puppet God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219726) by Cicciograna
Neelia Niuk, Neverending Will and Eiram Van Schaack, Limitless Grace - The Sublime Muses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243021) by Germille

Game Settings:
Varahal, the Vestige City (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141778) by Boci

zhdarkstar
2013-10-16, 02:56 PM
I have a couple PrC's based off Sentai that I would like a Tier rating for. I was shooting for Tier 3 for most of them except for Mecha Senshi. That one I gave a higher power curve considering the lengthy entry requirements and I wanted to make a Megazord. :smallbiggrin:

I understand that Magical Senshi will be harder to rate due to the wide range of options for the caster entry class. Radiant Senshi also has the same difficulty but not as much due to the smaller range of entry classes.

Magical Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14695872&postcount=50) (Spellcaster/Sentai hybrid prestige class.)
Mecha Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290953) (Iron Man/Sentai hybrid prestige class)
Radiant Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298786) (Sentai/Illumination-user hybrid prestige class for use with the Tome of Radiance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258654))
Gigantic Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15938260&postcount=97) (Kyodai/Sentai hybrid prestige class)

Morph Bark
2013-10-18, 04:52 AM
Here's another batch of Binder and Vestige related stuff.
*snip*

Added everything.


I have a couple PrC's based off Sentai that I would like a Tier rating for. I was shooting for Tier 3 for most of them except for Mecha Senshi. That one I gave a higher power curve considering the lengthy entry requirements and I wanted to make a Megazord. :smallbiggrin:

I understand that Magical Senshi will be harder to rate due to the wide range of options for the caster entry class. Radiant Senshi also has the same difficulty but not as much due to the smaller range of entry classes.

Magical Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14695872&postcount=50) (Spellcaster/Sentai hybrid prestige class.)
Mecha Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290953) (Iron Man/Sentai hybrid prestige class)
Radiant Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298786) (Sentai/Illumination-user hybrid prestige class for use with the Tome of Radiance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258654))
Gigantic Senshi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15938260&postcount=97) (Kyodai/Sentai hybrid prestige class)

I don't Tier PrCs, but it's funny you come with that now. You see, I've been thinking of collecting PrCs based off Homebrew base classes as a supporting list to the Tiered classes in this thread. I just made a thread for that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16240956) and already listed your PrCs there, as well as the Binder PrCs already found.

toapat
2013-10-22, 05:50 PM
Toapat makes a spot check: (a 16 is rolled) They are successful


Toapat's Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14104896): regarding Hymnbook, can the Paladin inscribe extra spells into the Hymnbook the way a Wizard can add spells to his spellbook? If so, what is the limit to the amount of spells it can hold (so, its page number)?

specifically, this falls 2 ways, depending on a ruling i never made:

ruling A: No, they cannot add spells to the book, thus they only have 1 book which is stored in the same dimensional pocket as the Gryphon and its horse jerky/the spirits.

ruling B: yes, they can add spells to the book, thus each book contains 100 pages as standard for spellbook type objects

Zaydos
2013-10-22, 10:26 PM
I'd like to put forward either of the two classes currently in my sig.

Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309717) is a quick attempt at a fix and might not be worth tiering because of it; I'm not sure if it is quality or "quality".

Werewolf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309502) is exactly what it says on the tin.

And in general any comments you have on either of them would be appreciated.

Morph Bark
2013-10-28, 05:54 AM
The Ozodrin has been Tiered.

Ozodrin PrCs are forthcoming in the other thread.

Amechra
2013-10-28, 06:30 AM
Once the list of Vestiges has been completed, I was thinking of expanding the Bind Vestige feat tree to have options for every applicable Vestige.

But, on a different note... can you tier the following?

The Bemäntelter Schatten (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=515)
The Convoker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5344)
The Salvager (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228049)

DracoDei
2013-10-28, 02:35 PM
I know I was surprised (or something) at your tiering, but I'm kinda confused that Guardian of Minds isn't on the list in the first page.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-11-01, 06:00 PM
Can you re-tier my Temporalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308549)? I've rewritten a good amount of the class, and the class features table is now packed full of stuff.

Also, if (when?) it is tiered, will it be added to the OP?

Zaydos
2013-11-04, 11:12 PM
Since the base class challenge is finally finished and I can post it separately I'd like to offer up Jinnblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312765) to be tiered. Aimed for something in Tier 3/High Tier 3 ranged with it.

And because I'd like your opinion on the class even if it doesn't get tiered Dream Crafter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16274843#post16274843). This one was more of taking an idea and doing what I could to make it work without a specific tier I was aiming for.

ngilop
2013-11-04, 11:56 PM
a few of these ive listed previosu (Witch Doctor comes to mind) but im posting again with hope that moprh does more than just mention my homebrew in passing and actually tier's it this go around.

my Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277587)please

my samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278499)

My witch doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244811)

My Primal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264875)

My Soul Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288404)

My healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272245)

my grappler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247200)

My monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266100)

and lastly

My Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283621)

I am aiming for 'tier' 3 for them but 'tier' 4 will suffice.

Rebonack
2013-11-05, 03:11 PM
For some giant monster city-stomping action check out The Protean Chimera (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312741).

Technically based around a modified version of Wildshape, this guy plays sorta like a lycanthrope early game and plays like Godzilla late game. In combat they can battle field control with the use of trip, grapple, and any other fun toys they can pick up with Chimera Form. Out of combat they make a pretty solid scout.

qwertyu63
2013-11-05, 09:28 PM
I finally made a base class, so I figure I should post it here.

The mender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310976). They heal.

Legendxp
2013-11-06, 12:37 AM
I have a jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311535) class that I've been working on. I'm wondering what the current tier for it is, since I haven't included spellcasting yet. I'm hoping for a tier 2/ tier 3 class, once I've implemented the spellcasting.

Here's the link (in case the above one didn't work)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311535

Morph Bark
2013-11-06, 09:45 AM
Once the list of Vestiges has been completed, I was thinking of expanding the Bind Vestige feat tree to have options for every applicable Vestige.

A very good idea.


I have a jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311535) class that I've been working on. I'm wondering what the current tier for it is, since I haven't included spellcasting yet. I'm hoping for a tier 2/ tier 3 class, once I've implemented the spellcasting.

Once you finish it, I'll happily review it.


The quotes below include some classes I've decided to take another look at later, and I'm putting it here mostly for myself so I can have an easy reminder later down the road.

The Salvager (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228049)

Can you re-tier my Temporalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308549)?

Dream Crafter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16274843#post16274843). This one was more of taking an idea and doing what I could to make it work without a specific tier I was aiming for.

The mender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310976). They heal.

DracoDei
2013-11-06, 12:53 PM
One of the Blue Mages in the first post or three has an extraneous asterisk.

Alabenson
2013-11-06, 05:38 PM
Would you be able to tier my Elemental Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311076) class? It's an elemental themed invocation user a la the Warlock, aimed for about Tier-3.

Zaydos
2013-11-06, 05:40 PM
Would you be able to tier my Elemental Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311076) class? It's an elemental themed invocation user a la the Warlock, aimed for about Tier-3.

It seems to be already there on borderline tier 3-4.

Temotei
2013-11-06, 06:39 PM
It seems to be already there on borderline tier 3-4.

Yeah, Morph's been adding a few lately. Whoo! :smalltongue:

toapat
2013-11-06, 06:49 PM
considering you had already looked at it, will you finish tiering my most recent paladin re-engineering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14104896), as i have finally acknowledged the question you asked a while ago and answered it, and filled out the skill list with a few things i missed.

Alabenson
2013-11-06, 08:46 PM
It seems to be already there on borderline tier 3-4.

Huh, I didn't notice that. Honestly, I didn't expect to have it tiered unless I asked first.

Aldurin
2013-11-06, 08:52 PM
Noticed that your Homebrew fixes section is empty, so I'll throw my Dread Necromancer fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282810) at it to get it started.

qwertyu63
2013-11-19, 07:13 AM
Note regarding the mender: it has moved. The new location is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16428765&postcount=2).

EDIT: Also, I have another class to be looked at. It is my attempt at bumping up the fighter, uneventfully named the fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316411).

asdflove
2013-11-27, 02:23 PM
Could you tier my re-written bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16495045#post16495045)and paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316781)?

Edit:
And the aristocrat? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317000)

Morph Bark
2013-12-06, 05:10 AM
Huh, I didn't notice that. Honestly, I didn't expect to have it tiered unless I asked first.

I can be sneaky like that, when I got time and want to Tier. :smalltongue:


I need to remind myself that I should add a few tags later on that Person_Man used in his niche tiering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314701) for official classes. I've thought of adding minionmancy and control before, but the latter can be hard to judge at times. It would mean needing to dig through all the classes again, so this may not happen anytime soon.

Temotei
2013-12-06, 05:14 AM
It would mean needing to dig through all the classes again, so this may not happen anytime soon.

I'm willing to help sort through for the purpose of tags. In fuzzy cases I can let you take over. That is, if you'd like me to help.

Morph Bark
2013-12-06, 05:24 AM
I'm willing to help sort through for the purpose of tags. In fuzzy cases I can let you take over. That is, if you'd like me to help.

That'd be great. I'm currently more focused on analyzing other RPGs in order to make my own (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316966); today I'll be digging through three different Cthulhu RPGs), so any help (on either project) is very much appreciated. :smallsmile:

I wanted to add Battlefield Control, Dominator, Thief, Summoner and Trapfinder. Battlefield Control as simple Control, Summoner and similar ilk as Minionmancy. Dominator could potentially fit under either, but I guess it's more fit as Minionmancy. Or maybe both, even. Thief and Trapfinder are clear-cut as they are, they wouldn't even need much additional explanation.

Lots of classes with the Scout tag will qualify for Thief and/or Trapfinder, as I originally factored stealth skills and trapfinding abilities into my judgement on whether to give a class the Scout tag.

Legendxp
2013-12-23, 11:18 AM
I just finished my soulsword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16666609) class. Anybody want to tier it?

EDIT: I wanted to apologize. After some playtesting I decided to rework the class a bit. It should be just about finished now if anybody wants to have a look. Complete with powers and meldshaping!

Gnomes2169
2013-12-23, 12:45 PM
After a bit of playtesting, it was discovered that the Sanguine Knight is only really effective in games that have living enemies. Yes, it's very much possible that you will not run into any of them over the course of a campaign, especially if your DM is using homebrew things and actively avoiding living stuff to fit the setting. So... it was theorized that the Sanguine Knight is actually a tier 4 class, but tier 3 against living stuff. I'm shooting to make it a high tier 3/ low tier 2, so expect quite a few things to be modified shortly. (The addition of SR will be the largest thing, and Blood Bonds are going to do more than make the SK a meat shield... which was what the character I made was basically turned into due to nothing being alive and some very, very favorably broken rulings for familiars/ casters >.>)

CryWolfCorrupt
2013-12-27, 02:05 PM
Can you take a look at my Shadow Shifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320682) base class and give me some input/tiering? Its my first homebrew but I am currently working on another one, the Strategist (I don't like WIP and will post it once it's been written in MS Word :smallredface:) but I would love some input on the Shadow Shifter since its my virgin project.

Zman
2013-12-27, 08:48 PM
I humbly offer up my line of fixed classes for your Homebrew Fixed Classes Section.

Zman's Balanced(More) 3.5 Classes
The aim is to bring the base classes of 3.5 to Tiers 2-4. This will result in an increase in power and versatility for some and a decrease in raw power for others. WIP. Note, the goal is to keep the existing architecture in tact where possible. These fixes will not be perfect, but they will go along way to making the game play better.
Core Classes
Barbarian Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14436951&postcount=1)
Bard Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266254)
Cleric Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14447853&postcount=1)
Druid Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14455690&postcount=1)
Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14422338&postcount=1)
Monk Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14423013&postcount=1)
Paladin Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14424731&postcount=1)
Ranger Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14424824&postcount=1)
Rogue Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14438831&postcount=1)
Sorcerer Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14425551&postcount=1)
Wizard Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14424944&postcount=1)

NonCore
Beguiler Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269703)
Duskblade Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14639114&postcount=1)
Warlock Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14522195&postcount=1)
Warmage Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14558304&postcount=1)
Wu Jen Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16685846&postcount=1)

Minor Magic Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14465593&postcount=1)

Sampatrick
2013-12-28, 04:07 PM
Could you tier this (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Hivemaster_(3.5e_Class)), Morph Bark?

Adam1949
2013-12-29, 05:22 AM
Would you be so kind as to give my Crueroclast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16692512) a tier? It's still needs some fine-tuning (and playtesting), but as of right now it's playable from 1-to-20, and you commented on it previously. Thank you in advance!

UserShadow7989
2014-01-01, 01:49 AM
Sorry to add to what appears to be a rapidly growing backlog, but could you give me a tiering of my Doll Maker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16613104)? I'm aiming for a solid tier 3. I've been tweaking/refining it since it first went up, and I'm hoping for an idea of where it stands before I apply any further big buffs or nerfs.

toapat
2014-01-01, 03:57 AM
rapidly growing backlog

This is a trickle, go back and half the queries have been missed. Its best described as a small planet orbiting a newly born star

Morph Bark
2014-01-09, 06:55 AM
This is a trickle, go back and half the queries have been missed. Its best described as a small planet orbiting a newly born star

I'll take that as a compliment. :smallwink:


I'm currently steeped in work to resolve my application to a new school, so I won't be able to set myself to Tiering until I have completed it. Feel free to continue to post requests, or even comment on others' work with an estimation of your own in the meantime.

As always, stay 'brewing, my friends.

3WhiteFox3
2014-01-09, 05:11 PM
Sorry to add to what appears to be a rapidly growing backlog, but could you give me a tiering of my Doll Maker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16613104)? I'm aiming for a solid tier 3. I've been tweaking/refining it since it first went up, and I'm hoping for an idea of where it stands before I apply any further big buffs or nerfs.

I'm not Morph Bark, but I thought I'd help out by looking at the class and trying to tier it to the best of my ability. I apologize for the length (I have written essays much shorter than my review) the class really gave me a lot to think about (good thing). So thanks to that my thoughts are a bit scattered. I hope that this helped anyway. As I was going over the class I kept getting side-tracked by yet another option that really changed how the class worked.

I looked over it, but I'm not really sure what tier it should be, it looks like a really fun and interesting class with great flavor. It's got a lot of potential and very unique class features. The main issue is that the dolls are pretty mediocre on their own but have a lot of potential thanks to the Doll Feats, Magic Strings and Maintained Spell class features. Use the doll feats right and you are able to switch them out given an hours notice, probably some of the best long-term mass buffing (on your dolls only) in the game. They make incredibly good usage of the spells they have, and have feats to make them even better.

My gut says high Tier 3 assuming moderate to high optimization, they lack the sheer game-breaking power that would catapult them to tier 2. It's definitely not a beginner's class, mainly because you have so many options, not only during character creation but also during play. I would need to see how one actually plays before I can make a better decision. A Doll Master not taking advantage of the Doll Feats, Magic Strings or Maintained Spells will probably feel more like a tier 5 class. It's one thing to need the moderate optimization assumed by the tier system, but the Doll Master seems to be a step beyond that. There's a lot to absorb and think about. I mean, if a Wizard wants to cast Create Pit he just prepares it and then casts it. The Doll Master is a lot more involved.

Summoners (PF) are already infamous with slowing things down, thanks to the sheer amount of actions that they have to be able to juggle. I think that the Doll Master is actually worse. Because they can have a large number of dolls on the table and each doll has it's own very large set of options (even within the platoons). It's a lot to keep straight. My best guess would be to make the base-line dolls a little more potent and taking away some of the doll feat options (not how many they get over 20 levels, but some of the more superfluous options like Strong Connection and Animal Form)

In conclusion, I'm not sure what to buff or nerf, it seems like the class has a really delicate balance, it can buff it's dolls extremely well, but is screwed if they take a big hit and several die. It's got a lot of tactical options, but they might be over-whelming to actually use. I don't want to seem too negative here, the class is very well made, and there are many, many options to make the class and lots of combinations. I think that if you want to feel like the commander of your own small army, you are going to be very happy with the class, but for your more average player, this may be a bit over their head. It's a well-designed class with issues that would probably require a big overhaul to it's basic concept.

Doxkid
2014-01-10, 05:00 PM
I'll take that as a compliment. :smallwink:


I'm currently steeped in work to resolve my application to a new school, so I won't be able to set myself to Tiering until I have completed it. Feel free to continue to post requests, or even comment on others' work with an estimation of your own in the meantime.

As always, stay 'brewing, my friends.

Speaking of which, are you ever going to finish that botanomorphist homebrew of yours?

UserShadow7989
2014-01-11, 04:03 AM
-snip-

Now that you've pointed it out, streamlining does seem to be the biggest thing the class needs right now. While I attempted to simplify it with the Platoons and making buffs shared instead of tracked individually, a Doll Maker is almost certain to slow down combat even with that, and have a high learning curve besides.

I'm going to see what I can come up with to make it simpler/quicker to play without affecting balance. Thanks for the in-depth review of the class. :smallbiggrin:

On that note: I hope everything goes well, Morph- a few friends of mine have been dealing with that recently, and it sounds like a major hassle.

Beelzebub1111
2014-01-20, 06:14 AM
Would you consider ranking my Knight of Dullahan? I was shooting for maybe High Four - Low Three:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16827292

Morph Bark
2014-01-20, 08:19 AM
Speaking of which, are you ever going to finish that botanomorphist homebrew of yours?

I'm afraid not. There's a lot of ways to expand upon it, but I haven't had the inspiration to work on it, and after so long a time I doubt I will anytime soon.

Should there be anyone wanting to create homebrew based off of it, or even flesh out the class into a fully working one, they have my permission. Just leave a little link or mention in the intro about it.


On that note: I hope everything goes well, Morph- a few friends of mine have been dealing with that recently, and it sounds like a major hassle.

Yeah, it is in most cases. So far it's gone relatively smoothly, but I have had to make several calls to the school to make sure everything was in order the way I thought it was. It may still not be, but if it is, I should be done by mid-February at the latest.

If not, it'll take me until June.

Zaydos
2014-01-25, 02:41 PM
I submit, for your reviewing pleasure when you have the time, the tall tale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326799) a class built around the idea of taking skills up to 11. Now with a casting variant.

CryWolfCorrupt
2014-01-30, 03:18 PM
Posted these awhile back but still would love to know about where they rank?

Judgemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16856957)
Opportunist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324492)
Strategist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322270)
Shadow Shifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320682)

At the very least maybe passers-by will see them and stop by for a PEACH to help me get them to 110%.

CrazyYanmega
2014-02-08, 03:08 AM
Thanks for making this list! I really enjoy reading it, and hope to one day make a class that hits the top of the charts!

DracoDei
2014-02-10, 11:02 PM
Thanks for making this list! I really enjoy reading it, and hope to one day make a class that hits the top of the charts!
You mean somewhere in the middle, right?

I mean, it is my understanding that few people set out to make a Tier 1.

qwertyu63
2014-02-11, 11:39 AM
Thanks for making this list! I really enjoy reading it, and hope to one day make a class that hits the top of the charts!

You do know that being on the top means you've made a powerful class, not necessarily a good one, right?

Ilorin Lorati
2014-02-11, 11:54 AM
Shhh, just let the boy dream.

Zaydos
2014-02-11, 12:01 PM
Oh yeah, Morph, if you're still looking for vestige stuff I went on a bit of a creativity binge and present to you:

A Vestige using base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329655) (intended to be tier 1 to 2 *hides ashamed face*)

And 2 sets of rules for making pacts with devils to bind them, one for binding a little bit of an arch-devil's will (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16943553#post16943553)* and one for allowing a fiend to possess you in exchange for vestige benefits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330018)**.

And a diabolist binder-warlock theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16957565#post16957565)***

Hope you enjoy.

*: Now including the Lords of the 9 (Mephistopheles twice), Moloch former Lord of the Sixth and Zariel former Lord of the First. If anybody knows a duke or count of Hell to suggest, just post it there and I'll see if I can do something with it.

**: Now including 6 devils and 3 demons and I have more to do. I mean you can't bind a devil of every level.

***: I should not be allowed to read sidebars about re-fluffing things.

CrazyYanmega
2014-02-11, 10:24 PM
I have a finished class! Please look at it when you get the chance! It's the Shield Guardian in my sig.

You are still updating the list, right?

Temotei
2014-02-11, 10:39 PM
I have a finished class! Please look at it when you get the chance! It's the Shield Guardian in my sig.

You are still updating the list, right?

He does, though he doesn't update it with everything he sees.

Zaydos
2014-02-11, 10:47 PM
I have a finished class! Please look at it when you get the chance! It's the Shield Guardian in my sig.

You are still updating the list, right?

I believe they are, though they did say they'd be busy till the middle of February. I will also note, though, that the tier system applies to Base Classes not Prestige Classes (someone did try and tier how they affect the entry class somewhere but that's a whole other kettle of fish). I'd have to really pit Morph if they were tiering homebrew PrCs :smalleek: I mean they're numerous and legion. Also realized some of the ones I've made are possibly lost now since I never bothered to add them to my extended sig :smalleek:

toapat
2014-02-11, 11:38 PM
i feel like someone (not morph) should quarry the topic for a list of everything that has been missed

The Mormegil
2014-02-19, 10:12 AM
I have created a few classes for beginners. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17029882#post17029882) I've set my goal to be (high) Tier 3. I'd love to have a second opinion on how they place. I'm aware rating the Medium is not possible without spirits, but the other three are pretty simple (well, that's the goal at least).

Morph Bark
2014-03-31, 02:30 PM
THE FORUMS MAKE THEIR RETURN, AND THUS BEGINS A NEW AGE

Also, I've had my interview for the new school, went well, but not well enough that I'm an instant shoe-in. I'll have to pass another test and check whether they pick some students by lottery, because a year after I entered high school the system changed and the old system's diplomas are no longer valid as of this year, at least for those schools that pick students by lottery. Which makes for some really bad timing for me. :smallsigh:

They at least told me I was near the top of the "maybe" list due to checking all boxes but "has made a video game". Which I would've checked if I still had my results from a course from a couple years ago, but that's been gone for years.


I'll be occupied with a few such things the coming week, mostly Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335042-EMPIRE!-Community-World-Building-Game-III-Prepare-Your-Inbox!-(Messages-Are-Coming)), but next week I will tier a few handfuls of classes again. After that, it likely won't be a steady thing, but next week there will be some. :smallwink:

Dimmet
2014-04-05, 07:49 PM
THE FORUMS MAKE THEIR RETURN, AND THUS BEGINS A NEW AGE

Also, I've had my interview for the new school, went well, but not well enough that I'm an instant shoe-in. I'll have to pass another test and check whether they pick some students by lottery, because a year after I entered high school the system changed and the old system's diplomas are no longer valid as of this year, at least for those schools that pick students by lottery. Which makes for some really bad timing for me. :smallsigh:

They at least told me I was near the top of the "maybe" list due to checking all boxes but "has made a video game". Which I would've checked if I still had my results from a course from a couple years ago, but that's been gone for years.


I'll be occupied with a few such things the coming week, mostly Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335042-EMPIRE!-Community-World-Building-Game-III-Prepare-Your-Inbox!-(Messages-Are-Coming)), but next week I will tier a few handfuls of classes again. After that, it likely won't be a steady thing, but next week there will be some. :smallwink:

I don't suppose we can find some way to contact the class-creators on the tier list and inform them that they need to remake their tables? As-is, with all the broken tables it's too much of a hassle to use anything here, kind of undermining the point.

toapat
2014-04-05, 08:01 PM
I don't suppose we can find some way to contact the class-creators on the tier list and inform them that they need to remake their tables? As-is, with all the broken tables it's too much of a hassle to use anything here, kind of undermining the point.

well i put a line in my sig telling people to ping me about it

JeminiZero
2014-04-05, 08:32 PM
Well, I have fixed all my tables. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe you could add a tag next to each listed class to indicate if the table has been fixed or not. Or even sort the current list into two separate lists.

Incidentally, I would like to request that Trissociate be moved from the Fix Class list, to the Homebrew list. Since while it is usable as a class fix, that was not its primary purpose, as evidenced from these sample builds: Angel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12830701&postcount=18), Dhampir Stalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14538326&postcount=26).

DracoDei
2014-04-06, 11:44 PM
FWIW, I'm working on it, but the time (or rather energy) I can devote to it is a limited resource, and the Guardian of Minds (Guardian of Hearts?), is really low on my list of things to fix... not least because I doubt anyone is going to use that poor Tier 5 (Tier 6?) thing.

My other Base Class is a higher priority, but that hasn't been Tiered yet.

Zaydos
2014-04-07, 12:59 PM
I think I fixed all my classes on this thread.

Now I'm gonna wait a bit before fixing the remaining mass of them.

Beelzebub1111
2014-04-09, 01:48 PM
I fixed my Knight of Dullahan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326502) Just for submission's sake.

Larkas
2014-04-09, 04:35 PM
Would you mind reviewing these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340115)? They're a couple of archetypes that, when taken together, will upgrade the rogue a bit (to low T3, or at least that's my hope). Of course, any input about the homebrew itself would be also greatly appreciated.

Temotei
2014-04-09, 10:11 PM
I've fixed everything of mine.

Morph Bark
2014-04-13, 09:34 AM
Well, I have fixed all my tables. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe you could add a tag next to each listed class to indicate if the table has been fixed or not. Or even sort the current list into two separate lists.

That would be a hellish amount of work. However, PMing some of the more prolific brewers with a link to this table converter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338573-New-tables-converter) is something that could be done. It is one of the several converters, and sadly this one doesn't make it look like the old tables, but TheWombatOfDoom knows how to do that. I could ask him.

Informing everyone who's partaken in the homebrew contests could also be a good idea.

toapat
2014-04-13, 10:15 AM
im only not updating because most of my material i feel i could do better now then originally, or im just not caring.

sirpercival
2014-04-13, 11:02 AM
I have so many to fix.... :( :( :( :( :(

Lix Lorn
2014-04-13, 01:05 PM
All of my tables for things I still support are fixed, iirc.