so... I read some shadowrun novels and..

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

I recently read a collection of Shadowrun short stories (Into the shadows, if you're interested)

I must confess, my interest is piqued by the setting, and I've a powerful desire to learn more about the system (since I know nothing)


thus I come to you chummers,

what can you tell me about the system?

should I be looking at 3rd or 4th ed shadowrun? (or something else?)

keep in mind that my only experience thus far is DnD 3.x and Savage Worlds: Necessary Evil, savy?

thanks a bunch yall

[TheOOB]

Shadowrun is a great game system. You should look for the Shadowrun 20th anniversary core rulebook, which is the current core rulebook for shadowrun 4e(some people prefer older editions, but you'll have way much luck finding books and players for the newer edition.)

The system is different from D&D. It uses an organic character advancement system with no classes, characters just improve their character how they see fit. The system can be very deadly, even weak foes can be dangerous to a strong party if they get the drop on them, and many combats are resolved before one side even gets to act.

Compared to D&D there is also a bigger emphasis on non-combat style encounters, though SR is a combat heavy system. It is also notable that different types of characters play differently. A gunner will play much differently from a hacker who is different from a magician.

[big teej]

Shadowrun is a great game system. You should look for the Shadowrun 20th anniversary core rulebook, which is the current core rulebook for shadowrun 4e(some people prefer older editions, but you'll have way much luck finding books and players for the newer edition.)

The system is different from D&D. It uses an organic character advancement system with no classes, characters just improve their character how they see fit. The system can be very deadly, even weak foes can be dangerous to a strong party if they get the drop on them, and many combats are resolved before one side even gets to act.

Compared to D&D there is also a bigger emphasis on non-combat style encounters, though SR is a combat heavy system. It is also notable that different types of characters play differently. A gunner will play much differently from a hacker who is different from a magician.



from the collection of stories, I sorta gathered that it was a classless system

however, a few of the major things I'm curious about

1 - typical price of books (I'm on a major budget here)
2 - learning curve (sorta obvious, by my time budget is nearly as tight as my money... and knowing my luck if I get into this system I'll have to run it, and teach all my players)
3 - pitfalls (i.e. in dnd the classes are inherently inbalanced.... are there similar descrepencies between career choices? i.e. is a hacker inherently better than muscle?)
4 - is shadowrun d20 based?

EDIT: helpful answer by the way :smallbiggrin:

[Savannah]

1 - typical price of books (I'm on a major budget here)

Try your library. Seriously, mine had the core rulebook when I searched on a whim.

[TheOOB]

from the collection of stories, I sorta gathered that it was a classless system

however, a few of the major things I'm curious about

1 - typical price of books (I'm on a major budget here)
2 - learning curve (sorta obvious, by my time budget is nearly as tight as my money... and knowing my luck if I get into this system I'll have to run it, and teach all my players)
3 - pitfalls (i.e. in dnd the classes are inherently inbalanced.... are there similar descrepencies between career choices? i.e. is a hacker inherently better than muscle?)
4 - is shadowrun d20 based?

EDIT: helpful answer by the way :smallbiggrin:

1) SR4A(the main book) runs about $30 on Amazon, and most the other core rulebooks run 25-30 on Amazon, with smaller pdfs running for less. Only the main book is needed, but the other core rulebooks can be handy, but you can easily get them over time

2) Shadowrun has one of the higher learning curves I've seen, but by no means the highest. It's learning curve is especially high if you've only played d20 systems as a lethal classless dice pool system is highly different from D&D. Shadowrun is a rules heavy system, and you need to have a good grasp of whats going on, because making mistakes can kill your character.

In particular, magicial characters can be a little difficult to deal with, hacking characters are even harder, and riggers extremely hard(as each use their own rules sub systems). I would not allow a rigger into a game unless me and the player were experienced in the system.

3) There are some pitfalls. The system is easy to min-max, and an experienced player can make a character who will be way more powerful than a character made by an inexperienced player. Never just allow players to use anything from a splat book, make sure everything outside the main book you okay.

Most new players and GM's find magic overpowered, but in most cases it's really not. There are lots of ways to defend agienst magic, and while spirit summoning can get silly, spells usually are not too much of a problem. Conversely, most new players find hackers to be a little weak, when they are not, they can be quite strong. The rule goes, the more the GM knows about the magic system, the less powerful it is. The more the GM knows about the matrix system, the more powerful it is.

4) Not at all. The system uses d6's, and lots of them. A common joke my group has is that you don't have enough d6's, no I don't care how many you have, you need more. In truth, you should try to have at least 12-15 d6's each, but having up to 50 doesn't hurt(you'll (almost) never roll that many at once, but having different dice pools premade makes things much easier).

[olejars]

4) Not at all. The system uses d6's, and lots of them. A common joke my group has is that you don't have enough d6's, no I don't care how many you have, you need more. In truth, you should try to have at least 12-15 d6's each, but having up to 50 doesn't hurt(you'll (almost) never roll that many at once, but having different dice pools premade makes things much easier).

This. Very much this. Just picked up the game and my group needs more d6's.

[TheOOB]

This. Very much this. Just picked up the game and my group needs more d6's.

In fact, one of the problems the game has is that if you min-max enough, you can get obscene dice pools. This is largely due to the fact that there are dozens of things that provide dice pool bonuses that all stack with eachother with no real restrictions. When a starting playing rolls 26 dice on social checks, he's going to pass nearly any social check with no trouble(as a GM you can't make every NPC as twinked as they are).

Also, a complete aside, in the main book, there is an optional rule for increasing drain for net successes on direct combat spells. That is an optional rule, and it is a horrible rule. Apart from the fact that direct combat spells are not overpowered, it encourages overcasting, which defeats the point.

[Seerow]

4) Not at all. The system uses d6's, and lots of them. A common joke my group has is that you don't have enough d6's, no I don't care how many you have, you need more. In truth, you should try to have at least 12-15 d6's each, but having up to 50 doesn't hurt(you'll (almost) never roll that many at once, but having different dice pools premade makes things much easier).


So much this. When my group picked up shadowrun, we went to wal-mart and bought 20 of those cheap board game 5-packs of d6s. Not as nice as gaming dice, but a fair bit cheaper, and made sure everyone had enough dice to themselves for the biggest dice pools they needed to roll. (Well usually).




As for the other stuff:
-Price of books: It's worth noting that unlike D&D Shadowrun has just one core book. Everything is in the core book. You don't have a DMG or Monster Manual. So the price of entry is significantly cheaper. Good splats to get include Arsenal, Augmentation, and Street Magic. There's other books, but those 3 will get you just about everything you need.

-Pitfalls. Biggest pitfall is Hacking/Rigging. It can be good, but the system is complicated and different from anything else in the game. And in the case of the rigger, it's easy to end up with a guy who doesn't need to be anywhere near anyone else, and sends in drones to do his work for him, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on group expectations.

The other thing is that Magic can be strong. In general Magic > Not Magic, to the point that at high op levels, everyone is encouraged to pick up a splash of Adept at the very least, just for the extra increase to their skills. But for a group of new gamers, this probably won't manifest itself too much, so you should be okay.

-Learning Curve. As mentioned by others, it's not a d20 system, so if that's all you know, it may take time to get used to.. The core of the system is pretty simple, take your attribute level, add your skill level, roll that many dice. Count any dice that are a 5 or a 6, those are your successes. If your successes beats the target number, you succeed. The book has all sorts of exceptions and additions and everything you expect out of a rules system, but that's the core mechanic, in much the same way D&D's core mechanic is take a d20, add modifiers, and compare to a DC.

[Reluctance]

A few more things to be aware of:

Shadowrun has changed thematicaly as technology has. Back in the 80's (/early 90's), everything was big and chromed. Nowadays, the style has become much sleeker and less intrusive. The style of the books you've read has changed.

Stop by the official site (http://www.shadowrun4.com/). They have handy resources that can help you get a more concrete idea what both the setting and the system are like nowadays.

Realize that the SR world is huge and full of backstory. Don't feel the need to be bogged down by canon. The RPG world saw where that line of thinking lead in the late 90's. Focus on what's important to your group, the rest of the world/plot be damned.

And most importantly, realize that games as played often differ from the gameworld as presented in fiction. Be aware of that as you try designing things for your group.

[big teej]

hmmm...... initially I was going to respond to everything individually.... but I think I can cover it all in one go.


common consensus is that it's a much cheaper buy-in to shadowrun than it was to Dnd. heh, bonus.

yall have done a good job of making it sound like the learning curve is steep enough that I need to play a bit before trying to run the game myself. (which, granted, didn't take much convincing, I prefer that anyways)

as for the dice.... heh, I used to play warhammer 40k... I have a gallon of d6s, I think I'm good.



just to clarify, while I know dnd very well, I have had experience with a class-less system before (savage worlds: Necessary Evil)

never done a dicepool before.

so... now I just have to find a shadowrun game..... :smallsigh:


EDIT: new question

somebody mentioned a stylistic difference (big and chromy vs slick and sleek)

could somebody point me at which addition is 'big and chrome'?

or can you meld the two styles without a problem?


cause I know I personally lean towards big chrome thingies.... but my players might not.

[TheOOB]

The other thing is that Magic can be strong. In general Magic > Not Magic, to the point that at high op levels, everyone is encouraged to pick up a splash of Adept at the very least, just for the extra increase to their skills. But for a group of new gamers, this probably won't manifest itself too much, so you should be okay.

That is...an uneducated view point. First of all, the rules specifically say that you shouldn't allow people to "splash" magical qualities, that the GM should avoid that. Also, it's actually quite hard to make an adept out of creation who is better than an augmented individual for anything other than melee combat. While Adepts have no glass ceiling, that usually isn't an issue in most games.

Magic is generally only too powerful if the GM doesn't understand the magic system very well(or if they don't give enough nuyen rewards. Giving less than around 2,000 nuyen per karma will make awakened characters really strong). Adepts are sorcery are pretty much never overpowered(save for some broken spells, like turn to goo, or some obscene builds, like the pornomancer). Conjuring can be pretty nasty, but a good GM can rein it in. In any case, there are boat loads of easy to use anti magic techniques in the GM's arsenal that don't pick on awakened players but still make their job hard.

As for the "splat books" it should be noted that Street Magic, Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, and Runners Companion are "Core Rulebooks" They are not required to play, but they have a lot of info in there respective fields. For example, the basic matrix rules are in the main book, but if you want to go in depth into hacking(or want riggers at all) you need Unwired. You can play a magician or adept with the main book, but Street Magic adds a lot to them(such as ritual targeting through objects). Arsenal and Augmentation also have lots of useful info, and Runner's Companion has all the weird character options(I love drakes personally, though despite being horribly underpowered a lot of GM's think they're too powerful. Kind of like the whole magic thing).

[Seerow]

That is...an uneducated view point. First of all, the rules specifically say that you shouldn't allow people to "splash" magical qualities, that the GM should avoid that. Also, it's actually quite hard to make an adept out of creation who is better than an augmented individual for anything other than melee combat. While Adepts have no glass ceiling, that usually isn't an issue in most games.

True, it's only an issue in high op games where dropping the BP on adept/magic points for +3 to your skills is totally worth it. It's not always the case, especially not to new groups, but to say it doesn't ever happen or that DMs should houserule it so it doesn't happen is what I'd call a rather ignorant viewpoint.

Frankly, even when I don't want to crank out super numbers, I pick up adept and enough magic points to not be a burnout with whatever cyber/bio I pick up, simply because if the game goes on long enough, I'll have -something- to spend my karma on that's not infringing on other characters' specialization.


Magic is generally only too powerful if the GM doesn't understand the magic system very well(or if they don't give enough nuyen rewards. Giving less than around 2,000 nuyen per karma will make awakened characters really strong).

Even at 2000 nuyen per karma, that means by the time the Mage can initiate for the first time, characters have gained around 14,000 nuyen. How many things are there that the character didn't just buy at chargen that costs 14,000 or less? I guess maybe some high availability low cost stuff.

Nuyen rewards need to be pretty high, and need to get much higher the more stuff the group already has (as upgrades become more minor yet more expensive)

[Crow]

I'm not sure what ''edition'' the novels take place in, but I would recommend 3rd edition. SR4 just doesn't do it for me, and I've found 3rd easier and more enjoyable to run.

If you're going for the feel of the novels, then you'll likely just want to get the edition that they are predicated on, as the feel of the game is quite different between 3e and 4e. 3e is the last edition with vestiges of Neuromancer, and 4e starts going all Ghost in the Shell.

[big teej]

I'm not sure what ''edition'' the novels take place in, but I would recommend 3rd edition. SR4 just doesn't do it for me, and I've found 3rd easier and more enjoyable to run.

If you're going for the feel of the novels, then you'll likely just want to get the edition that they are predicated on, as the feel of the game is quite different between 3e and 4e. 3e is the last edition with vestiges of Neuromancer, and 4e starts going all Ghost in the Shell.

well..... crap.

*teej totally didn't already order something*

in my defense, the logic of 'you can find more players and such' is of greater pertinence to me than finding the edition the novels took place in.

besides, if I fall in love with the system, I can always try other editions later.

[TheCountAlucard]

Is a hacker inherently better than muscle?Hackers and technomancers can get five Initiative passes, where muscle, when last I checked, is limited to four.


Only the main book is needed...Unless you want to be a rigger. Then Arsenal is necessary.

Lemme clarify: Rigger is the only archetype who can't do his job without a splatbook.


Pitfalls. Biggest pitfall is Hacking/Rigging.I really need to make that guide sooner or later... :smallsigh:


And in the case of the rigger, it's easy to end up with a guy who doesn't need to be anywhere near anyone else, and sends in drones to do his work for him, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on group expectations.This is true; the party didn't even see my hacker/rigger's face until the second mission we'd done together, IIRC. The look on their faces when they realized my character was a teenager was quite amusing. :smallamused:

After that, I started participating in the missions more personally, but my general contribution for any given mission was...
Do surveillance with drones.
Defeat any security systems in place, often with drones.
Analyze foreign programs and such.
Get everything useful off of a scavenged or recovered commlink.
Perform datasearches on anything related to the mission - anything.
Maintain the communication lines between party members.
Have a number of drones ready to deploy if stuff goes south.
Keep the party's names and faces off the Matrix.
Maintain the security systems of our various houses, offices, and safehouses.
Double-check the party's commlink hard- and software before and after missions, and upgrade them from time to time.
Don't get addicted to hotsim or BTLs. :smalltongue:

[TheOOB]

True, it's only an issue in high op games where dropping the BP on adept/magic points for +3 to your skills is totally worth it. It's not always the case, especially not to new groups, but to say it doesn't ever happen or that DMs should houserule it so it doesn't happen is what I'd call a rather ignorant viewpoint.

To be fair, if your an adept with Wired Reflexes 2, you would need to spend 30 BP just on magic in order to not burn out, which isn't worth it for some skill upgrades, especially when reflex recorders are already there. High power adept builds tend to be social or hacking oriented.



Frankly, even when I don't want to crank out super numbers, I pick up adept and enough magic points to not be a burnout with whatever cyber/bio I pick up, simply because if the game goes on long enough, I'll have -something- to spend my karma on that's not infringing on other characters' specialization.

Except thats not allowed by the rules

SR4A pg 90 "Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that are intended to be played as adepts."

If you only have 1 or 2 PP, it's fair to say your not playing the character as an adept, and thus is should not be allowed by the rules. It's right there in the book.


Even at 2000 nuyen per karma, that means by the time the Mage can initiate for the first time, characters have gained around 14,000 nuyen. How many things are there that the character didn't just buy at chargen that costs 14,000 or less? I guess maybe some high availability low cost stuff.

Nuyen rewards need to be pretty high, and need to get much higher the more stuff the group already has (as upgrades become more minor yet more expensive)

2,500 nuyen is equivalent of 1 karma(see Runners Companion). Characters will not have all the gear they want at creation, you can only spend 50BP max on gear, and avail is a big deal. There are higher rating programs/items, bigger guns, higher grade 'ware, and some of those super expensive items that are not worth it in creation(synaptic boosters come to mind, not worth it at creation, but well worth it later).

Besides, an awakened character doesn't become a god just because they initiated. Initiation just gives a metamagic technique and increases your maximum magic(which is really expensive to raise). With 2,000 nuyen per karma it wouldn't be unusual to see 80,000 nuyen or more before you see a magic 7 character, and magic 7, while powerful doesn't make you win the game, especially when the rest of your team is getting Betaware by that point.


Hackers and technomancers can get five Initiative passes, where muscle, when last I checked, is limited to four.

In the matrix only. Unless they are rigging, they are unlikely to be able to use those 5 ip to great effect in the physical world.


Unless you want to be a rigger. Then Arsenal is necessary.

Lemme clarify: Rigger is the only archetype who can't do his job without a splatbook.

Arsenal is nice, but entirely unnecessary for a rigger, drones are in the main book. Unwired has the rules for remote controlling drones and many other important rigger like actions. Arsenal just gives more options.

[big teej]

for those of you who are curious....

I just had a look at the publish date on the collection of stories I read....


It was pupblished in 1990.... according to wikipedia, shadowrun was published in 1989...


:smalleek:


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's way too late for me to interact with that iteration XD

[Andezzar]

besides, if I fall in love with the system, I can always try other editions later.Sorry to disappoint you, but the system of 1st-3rd Editions is about as similar to 4th as AD&D is to 3.5.


for those of you who are curious....

I just had a look at the publish date on the collection of stories I read....


It was pupblished in 1990.... according to wikipedia, shadowrun was published in 1989...


:smalleek:


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's way too late for me to interact with that iteration XDOh so 1st Edition. If you are in love with that fluff, wait a bit. There are plans for a sourcebook that does the 2050s (epoch of 1st edition) with the rules of 4th Edition.

If you haven't found that already The Dumpshock Forums (http://forums.dumpshock.com/) are also a good place to ask your questions about Shadowrun.

[only1doug]

This is true; the party didn't even see my hacker/rigger's face until the second mission we'd done together, IIRC. The look on their faces when they realized my character was a teenager was quite amusing. :smallamused:


In my Last group the party never met the rigger at all, and never could as he was an AI.
The GM handwaved the text of the rules to allow interaction between my character and his as by all the rules we should never have been able to recognise the existance of each other (I was playing a free spirit of a possession tradition).

...."Let me tell you about the time I almost died." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_(film))