[PF] Am I being ill credit to team for making a pacifist cleric?

[ShippoWildheart]

There's a campaign coming up by one of my online friends, and I figure it'd be an amusing and interesting idea if I were to create a cleric modeled after Fluttershy. Basic premise? Never attack/kill a single living creature, although I'm still debating if undead/constructs/oozes should count as well (my gut says nope). To make up for it, I planned to grab the Feather (of Animal) domain and get a bear companion to do the fighting.

Long story short, do everything a cleric is capable of doing, EXCEPT attacking enemies with a weapon of any sort.

Any offensive spells? I figure I can grab the Merciful metamagic feat and would only sling these "damaging" spells in dire emergencies. Also, I'm sure debuffs/battlefield control spells won't break the pacifist rule/challenge.

Problem though, one of my other friends (who I know in real life), who joined the campaign long before I did, got into a huge argument with me on that that'll get the party killed, because a wussy pacifistic cleric is a stupid idea. After a short while, I figure to just withdraw from the campaign since my real life friend has such a huge problem with it. I didn't want to be in the campaign with my cleric idea if it means a real life friend of mines is going to be upset with what he considers a terrible way to play a character. He's been a DM for a few years so he knows a bit about optimizing, and the 2 instances I know when he played a cleric, he had the standard support cleric, and a battle cleric. So he does know his clerics.

Rest of the party is: Oracle (of Life), Rogue, Barbarian, Cavalier

./end story time

So anyways, question is in title. Story's been told. Thoughts?

[AmberVael]

The real problem of pacifist characters is when they're trying to actively punish or work against non-pacifists. It doesn't sound like that's what you're going for- more like the character just won't go that far on their own.

With this assumption in mind, I'd say it is a perfectly valid concept. I'm not overly familiar with Pathfinder, I'll grant, but what I do know of it seems to indicate that it isn't hugely different from standard 3.5- and if that is indeed the case, the real strength of the cleric has never been doing the fighting themselves anyway. Party buffing, support, and a bit of utility/healing is pretty much one of the best ways for a cleric to go- and it sounds like your party composition has plenty of people who could benefit from that. At this point, you'll probably be doing better to go for a buffing character than a straight up fighter, because multiplying three people is way better than adding a fourth.

Also, if you have a bear, that kinda makes four people and pretty much makes up for your lack of direct contribution.

[GreenZ]

I believe you're fine, Pacifism =/= worthless and, as long as you don't stop the party from engaging in violence when they need to and manage to aid the team in some meaningful manner (which judging by your team comp. shouldn't be a problem), it is the fault of the group if they believe that you can only be useful if you're a combat machine.

I've had many mostly non-combat characters including both a 'skill monkey' Synthesist that could make skill checks like a boss and also a Fluttershy 'inspired' Paladin (Among FiM based characters, so much fun) who focused on healing, controlling, and channeling unless whatever they were fighting was non-living.

It was great, I even once got to use the line "REPENT! Um... you know... if you want to..." :smallbiggrin:


Just make sure to clarify that there is a difference between pacifism and 'Combat Liability', you'd be amazed how many people mix the two up.

[Invader]

It does seem counter intuitive to be a pacifist but still get something else to fight for you. I'm not really sure pacifism works that way lol.

[Lateral]

It does seem counter intuitive to be a pacifist but still get something else to fight for you. I'm not really sure pacifism works that way lol.

Well, hypocrisy is one of the defining characteristics of any player character. :smalltongue:

[Larpus]

From my experience, you should be fine even without the bear.

I mean, you're just not participating directly in the beating, so as long as buffs are flying around (and possibly some harmless control?), don't see why anyone would complain about it; after all, if decently built, the melee guys should bring plenty of damage to the table.

Just build yourself rather tanky tho, so you don't get into too much trouble.

Another option is to grab couple combat maneuver feats and trip/disarm/etc the enemies, you're not attacking, but you're definitely bringing something meaningful to the battle.

[legomaster00156]

It does seem counter intuitive to be a pacifist but still get something else to fight for you. I'm not really sure pacifism works that way lol.
I'm also pretty sure Lawful Good people in real life don't kill off entire "usually-evil" races. Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons morality. Have fun figuring it out.

[grarrrg]

cleric modeled after Fluttershy...
Feather (of Animal) domain and get a bear companion to do the fighting.


*facepalm*

Fluttershy is a Druid.
Her Animal Companion is a Rabbit (Dire Rabbit?).

[killianh]

A cleric can be build for very OP melee, Very OP battlefield control, or a good mix of both. Really outside of the RP element Clerics are best as heal bots\buff\debuff anyway. If you don't have your character complain about the party attacking people and just do your quiet bit to help you'll be fine.

Hell being a non combatant is why 3.5 Clerics get Sanctuary as a spell to begin with. Tell your friend you're gonna run a few matches with him as see how he does. If the party wipes though it'll either be because the party is imbalanced, or the DM is throwing some really hardcore battles at you (In which case buffing\Debuffing will be your best route anyway)

[The Glyphstone]

It's Technical Pacifism, and perfectly okay for a D&D context. Whack your friend with a pool noodle for being a killjoy.

[Invader]

You could look at the Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace feats in the BoED. They'd fit your character concept perfectly but they're both pretty lackluster looking in my opinion.

If VoN gave a plus +4 CL for buffs instead of just adding to the save DC's it be worth it and if VoP's various AC bonuses stacked with regular armor I'd say grab both of them and you'd be buffing hard to hit fool.

[Tulya]

Worst case scenario, you're effectively playing your cleric as if it were a lower tier class - though that doesn't necessarily follow! That's entirely your prerogative, the same way any other member of your group could have and did choose classes that generally have a lower level of power and flexibility than a well-tuned cleric.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Holy quadruple posting Batman!

He said this was PF. Then again, he does have Merciful Spell.

Possibly the best example of a pacifist adventurer is Aang. From Avatar the Last Airbender. And not the stupid movie adaption titled "The Last Airbender". The cartoon. If you can get past the Aang-Katara romance, it's a pretty good show. He's not against fighting (he's actually very good at it), he's against killing.

Edit: Can't believe I missed it... Batman! You could use him as inspiration.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If your friend is aware of the party composition and thinks a caster cleric will be a drag than, no, he doesn't know much about optimizing.

A moderately optimized melee CoDzilla would steam roll any appropriate challenge for the Barbarian and Cavalier. While a bear companion will bring close to the melee power of an nonoptimized melee cleric resulting in a net power gain since you're gaining action economy by casting spells while the bear attacks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If your friend is aware of the party composition and thinks a caster cleric will be a drag than, no, he doesn't know much about optimizing.

A moderately optimized melee CoDzilla would steam roll any appropriate challenge for the Barbarian and Cavalier. While a bear companion will bring close to the melee power of an nonoptimized melee cleric resulting in a net power gain since you're gaining action economy by casting spells while the bear attacks.

...The friend thinks a PACIFIST cleric would be bad. A pacifist isn't going to take Augment Summoning and then multi-summon a bunch of creatures to steamroll the encounter along with the Hound Archon he got with Lesser Planar Ally earlier.

[Theroc]

A pacifist isn't going to take Augment Summoning and then multi-summon a bunch of creatures to steamroll the encounter along with the Hound Archon he got with Lesser Planar Ally earlier.

Says who? Perhaps the dictates of the Cleric's order forbids physical violence of its clergy. Cleric summons outsiders and creatures to do the physical violence for him to remain true to his vows.

Or perhaps he just abhors the concept of having to physically strike something with his own body, preferring to let others do so.

OP already stated having a bear companion to fight 'in his stead', implying the cleric is okay with combat, he just doesn't wanna actually hit something himself, allowing the rest of the party to do so.

[erikun]

Just a few thoughts: (I'm not sure which are allowed in Pathfinder and which aren't)

I'm sure there's an Apostle of Peace PrC in Book of Exalted Deeds that would probably fit your theme very well.

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is an option if you want an animal companion.

Druid is a really good idea, if allowed. Animal Companion + Entangle + Barkskin + Warp Wood + Plant Growth + Wall of Thorns + etc give you a lot of ability to neutralize/hold off the enemy or support your allies. If your friend can't figure out why +2 attack, +2 damage, and +2 AC on the party Barbarian or Cavalier is a good thing (not to mention Pass without Trace on everyone in hostile territory) then there isn't much he'll accept. Just play Murderhead McMurderington and kill everything solo to make him happy.

[ShippoWildheart]

It does seem counter intuitive to be a pacifist but still get something else to fight for you. I'm not really sure pacifism works that way lol.

Forgo the bear companion then? The bear companion idea mostly stemmed only because my friend kept complaining my cleric wasn't attacking anyone so I looked for a loophole.



Or perhaps he just abhors the concept of having to physically strike something with his own body, preferring to let others do so.

OP already stated having a bear companion to fight 'in his stead', implying the cleric is okay with combat, he just doesn't wanna actually hit something himself, allowing the rest of the party to do so.

This is what I ended up aiming for.




Druid is a really good idea, if allowed. Animal Companion + Entangle + Barkskin + Warp Wood + Plant Growth + Wall of Thorns + etc give you a lot of ability to neutralize/hold off the enemy or support your allies. If your friend can't figure out why +2 attack, +2 damage, and +2 AC on the party Barbarian or Cavalier is a good thing (not to mention Pass without Trace on everyone in hostile territory) then there isn't much he'll accept. Just play Murderhead McMurderington and kill everything solo to make him happy.

I don't want to venture THAT far into power creep territory. :smallbiggrin:





It's Technical Pacifism, and perfectly okay for a D&D context. Whack your friend with a pool noodle for being a killjoy.


Holy quadruple posting Batman!

He said this was PF. Then again, he does have Merciful Spell.

Possibly the best example of a pacifist adventurer is Aang. From Avatar the Last Airbender. And not the stupid movie adaption titled "The Last Airbender". The cartoon. If you can get past the Aang-Katara romance, it's a pretty good show. He's not against fighting (he's actually very good at it), he's against killing.

Edit: Can't believe I missed it... Batman! You could use him as inspiration.

Hmm, I think a mix of Technical Pacifist plus Actual Pacifist fits the bill best. I'd like my cleric as a whole to not lay a single attack nor kill a single living creature, but is okay with her allies doing so. Of course within reason, so no killing helpless children or the disabled. :smallyuk:




...The friend thinks a PACIFIST cleric would be bad. A pacifist isn't going to take Augment Summoning and then multi-summon a bunch of creatures to steamroll the encounter along with the Hound Archon he got with Lesser Planar Ally earlier.

Mass summon cheese and steamroll? Naw. But perhaps just summon a few allies every now and then if the encounter has a massive amount of enemies or the party members are getting overwhelmed. Otherwise you're correct in that I won't abuse summons as an easy mode button.



*facepalm*

Fluttershy is a Druid.
Her Animal Companion is a Rabbit (Dire Rabbit?).

But a tree Druid can't heal/buff allies as well as a cleric, plus I don't want to step on the toes of the melee since I would have a stronger animal companion and can shapeshift for melee purposes as well. I know far too well how deadly a fully buffed Druid can be vs equal level encounters; with my bear companion at level 9 I nearly duoed the BBEG vampire wizard. The only reason I couldn't finish him off (he was in low low double digits) was because he drained too many levels from me, which lead to being unable to hit his 30+ AC.

[deuxhero]

Become a Vitalist instead of a Cleric.

You can now stay at home and be more effective than gimp Cleric ever would be.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

...The friend thinks a PACIFIST cleric would be bad. A pacifist isn't going to take Augment Summoning and then multi-summon a bunch of creatures to steamroll the encounter along with the Hound Archon he got with Lesser Planar Ally earlier.

Nothing in the OP said he wouldn't do something like that, Pacifist might not be the best word for what he wants to do, but he said he wanted to use a melee Animal Companion, so this is more of a character that doesn't get their hands dirty than a true pacifist.

The only restriction he's putting on himself for rp reasons is not personally attacking anything. Any other tactics he doesn't use are purely to follow the gentleman's agreement and play at the level of his table, which will be quite low on the Cleric scale since there are 2 noncaster nonTOB melee.

Honestly, assuming the Bear scales as a Druid AC(I'm not familiar with this feather), if he plays like a PF summoner with better spells this Pacifist is totally capable of steamrolling encounters and outshining his companions. Tier 1 with one hand behind your back is still Tier 1 and as good as Cleric melee is it's still just the off hand.

[Augmental]

What does your character think about spells that knock enemies unconscious so they can be coup de graced by the other players, but don't do any harm otherwise (such as Sleep)? Does your character only use such spells in emergencies, and even then only grudgingly, or does he or she have no qualms about them, or something completely different?

[ShippoWildheart]

What does your character think about spells that knock enemies unconscious so they can be coup de graced by the other players, but don't do any harm otherwise (such as Sleep)? Does your character only use such spells in emergencies, and even then only grudgingly, or does he or she have no qualms about them, or something completely different?

I was merely considering the idea of smacking Merciful spell on any offensive spells I may pack. Alternatively, I can not take Merciful spell at all (since I wouldn't be using stuff like Flame Strike) and sub it with Scribe Scroll so I can have multiple of certain spells to make up for not attacking enemies. For RP reasons, I may use Save-or-suck spells reluctantly. In terms of buffs/debuffs though, all's fair game. Save-or-dies? Forget about it.






Honestly, assuming the Bear scales as a Druid AC(I'm not familiar with this feather), if he plays like a PF summoner with better spells this Pacifist is totally capable of steamrolling encounters and outshining his companions. Tier 1 with one hand behind your back is still Tier 1 and as good as Cleric melee is it's still just the off hand.

The feather domain is a sub-domain of the Animal domain. The only difference is subbing the primary power with one that gives a bonus to Perception (because Hawk Eyes), gain a few flight related spells, and just to fit the theme of Fluttershy (a pegasus). No changes to animal companion, I can have the feather domain and still have a land based companion.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Cool, just checked the Pathfinder version of Animal Domain. Take Natural Bond to negate that negative 3 three modifier otherwise it will take forever to get a bear. As I've said before you should be more than fine and if you ever feel weak or useless well first remember this . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZkhVYbbdy4

then take Merciful Spell with your next available feat to open up some of the great debuff/damage spells on the Cleric list like Lucent Lance and Cometfall.

[Invader]

I think you can forgo any melee from yourself or an animal companion and focus on buffs and crowed control and be more than effective.

[Invader]

Holy quadruple posting Batman!


Yeah, the server was acting up again lol.

[Benly]

Cool, just checked the Pathfinder version of Animal Domain. Take Natural Bond to negate that negative 3 three modifier otherwise it will take forever to get a bear.

PF uses the Boon Companion feat instead. Also, PF animal companions let you start with any kind of companion you want - there are special companion versions of the available creatures that grow as you level up, so a PF druid can start with a bear at level 1 if he wants but it'll be a small bear. (Weirdly, a companion bear is smaller than a companion wolf.)

[Karoht]

Long story short, do everything a cleric is capable of doing, EXCEPT attacking enemies with a weapon of any sort. Thoughts?
You can still be battlefield control.
Hold Person/Hold Monster works wonderfully.
Keep a high Diplomacy. Some things are more willing to listen to reason when you are holding them in a Hold Person.

There is a spell, I forget the name, it works like Spiritual Weapon. You control it on your move actions, it summons up a holy chain (made of force I think) and you can command it to grapple and bullrush and trip and a few other things. Use it and abuse it. The melee combatants in the party will adore you. Sadly, I think you can only have one out. If you can have two out, you can control one chain as a move action and a second as a standard. Been a while since I read the spell though.

Your motivation should not be 'avoid hurting the bad guys' but rather 'keep the bad guys from hurting anyone' as opposed to hurting them yourself. Work on stunning and debuffing and battlefield control, and generally just keep bad guys out of the fight or reduce their chances of hurting your party.

It is an entirely valid playstyle, good luck.

[ShippoWildheart]

Oh yeah, just a heads up. Me and my friend are cool now. He admitted he went overboard on his reaction, and me I apologized for trying so hard to gain his approval (since after all we're going to be in the party as healer types). I'm willing to fine tune then what defines a Fluttershy cleric.



You can still be battlefield control.
Hold Person/Hold Monster works wonderfully.
Keep a high Diplomacy. Some things are more willing to listen to reason when you are holding them in a Hold Person.

There is a spell, I forget the name, it works like Spiritual Weapon. You control it on your move actions, it summons up a holy chain (made of force I think) and you can command it to grapple and bullrush and trip and a few other things. Use it and abuse it. The melee combatants in the party will adore you. Sadly, I think you can only have one out. If you can have two out, you can control one chain as a move action and a second as a standard. Been a while since I read the spell though.

Your motivation should not be 'avoid hurting the bad guys' but rather 'keep the bad guys from hurting anyone' as opposed to hurting them yourself. Work on stunning and debuffing and battlefield control, and generally just keep bad guys out of the fight or reduce their chances of hurting your party.

It is an entirely valid playstyle, good luck.

I'd love to know what this spell is. Also, hmmm, that last paragraph sounds pretty nice as an MO. Maybe that can be character development later down the road.

[Karoht]

I'd love to know what this spell is.
www.d20pfsrd.com
4th level cleric spell if I remember correctly.
Chains of Perdition maybe?



Also, hmmm, that last paragraph sounds pretty nice as an MO. Maybe that can be character development later down the road.It's an amazing MO for just about all the caster classes. Battlefield control is remarkably helpful. It is as important if not more important than buffing. You don't control the fight, you control WHEN you fight. You can do things like force bottlenecks, or keep whole groups of enemies out of combat until you are ready to deal with them.
Example
Impassable Terrain means that people move at half movement speed and can't charge. There are plenty of spells out there which can achieve this effect.
Thats right. That big bad barbarian across the battlefield? He can't charge now, and charges usually hurt, a lot. What's better than healing a party member after he's been charged by a barbarian? Not having to heal in the first place.

Enjoy.

I would say your ultimate goal in the campaign is to not directly cause damage. As long as you personally are never the cause of a single hit point VS a living creature (I would add Demons in there too, maybe) you're okay. But, in that goal, you are trying to prevent other things from inflicting a single point of damage on your friends (where possible).