How important is a wizard?

[MrBanana]

The party I'm in consists of a Barbarian (me), a cleric, a ranger, and a rouge. My friend is interested in trying the game out, and if he enjoys it he'll be our wizard.

However, I don't know if he's going to always being playing with us, so how could we prepare for the tough battles with magic? Our cleric did take Sun Domain, so he does get damage spells, and we have pretty good fighting capabilities. What should we be prepared for?

[SowZ]

The Cleric can take care of a decent amount of things and if there are any specific tricks/spells you feel like you need to take on certain monsters your rogue can max out his UMD and fill the gaps. He will certainly lack the raw power and flexibility of the wizard with his casting via items but he can do the job.

[sonofzeal]

Mmmm.... a few comments.

- Having an entire party member devoted to cosmetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouge_(cosmetics)) seems like overkill. :smallamused:

- The point of Wizards is not hp damage (and hence Sun domain is no substitute). Everyone else can do hp damage just fine without a Wizard.

- Wizards do best when they focus on "utility" (Knock, Invisibility, Teleport), on "battlefield control" (Grease, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog), and on "debuffs" (Sleep, Glitterdust, Ray of Exhaustion/Enfeeblement/Clumsiness). If he plays one, aim him for these sorts. However...

- Wizard is a very challenging and labour-intensive class to play. It's not the most difficult (I still say that's Druid, with Artificer as a solid second), but it requires serious rules mastery to choose spells appropriately and adjudicate all their effects, and there's a lot of bookkeeping and planning too. I wouldn't recommend it for a newbie unless he's got his heart set there.

[Griffith!]

Oh, I get it. Very funny.

Some things the wizard can do really can't be replaced. I'd advocate having one, just to have one. He's like Batman - the Justice League can win when he's not around, but it's never as easy as when he is.

Plus, he has way more fans than any other members combined, but that's neither here nor there.

[ryu]

And yet somehow he still gets into arguments with Mario about whether they're on the same tier. Man that was a fun video.

In all seriousness though was he planning to be a blaster or a wizard? Wizard can do damage, but it's far from the most terrifying stuff they can pull.

[Madara]

If he wants to play a magic user, I suggest a Warlock, or something else that doesn't prepare spells each day. It would be a good introduction to the concept, and still fits a magic-user theme.

[Khedrac]

I played in a fairly low-optimisation campaign where someone new to the game took a wizard. The DM thought it a better choice than a sorceror where choosing the wrong spells is relatively permanent. Bad move - he never knew what to memorise or when to cast it.
I would suggest sorceror over warlock - more flexible to make him feel useful (even if badly played a sorceror should be useful) - it's one of the easiest classes to actually play. The only trick is spell selection on leveling and people can help with that (also sticking mainly to core makes it easier) and a friendly DM can allow spell switching if a bad choice is made (there's also the retraining rules from PHB2).

[Dr.Epic]

If you're smart and your cleric knows what they're doing, you should be fine.

[Acanous]

To answer the question posed in the thread title, unless your party consists of an Artificer, a Factotum, an Archivist and a Psion, the wizard is the MOST important.
More important than any NPC in the world, more important than any other party member, probably more important than the majority of the setting's gods.

Giving a Wizard to a newbie is like giving him a week's worth of homework before each session, though. A Wizard who shows up without planning is like an Architect who does the same- you'll get some results anyhow, but they won't be as good or as grand in scope as if they had.

[sonofzeal]

To answer the question posed in the thread title, unless your party consists of an Artificer, a Factotum, an Archivist and a Psion, the wizard is the MOST important.
More important than any NPC in the world, more important than any other party member, probably more important than the majority of the setting's gods.
Well, it sounds like they're playing a low-Op game where little of that is true.



In point of fact, I've been in many groups that didn't have the "Wizard" spot filled. It's hardly a game-ruiner. It does reduce the ability of the party to solve more difficult noncombat problems, but that's not the end of the world. A Wizard-less party is more likely to behave in predictable ways, giving the DM more control without resorting to fiat railroading. Honestly, I think the game plays better like that.

[Killer Angel]

If you're smart and your cleric knows what they're doing, you should be fine.

Judgin' from this


Our cleric did take Sun Domain, so he does get damage spells,

it seems we're talking 'bout low op.
An almost "standard" group (from the game developers PoV)

[killianh]

Depends. If everything is covered by other classes then not important, but it should be noted that in most cases if another character can do it, a wizard can do it better. A wizard is a "got a problem? There's a spell for that" can-do-anything-better kind of character. The homework side of him sucks, but really he's a good fit if you think there's a couple of gaps in your group.

From the looks of it you've got a face, melee damage, ranged damage, healing, and skillmonkey stuff covered so you still need battlefield control, buffing, debuffing, and possibly (always useful) Divination. Wizard is good, but show him Divination, Illusion, Abjuration, and transmutation. Get him to pick a mix at each level if he really wants wizard. Otherwise show him sorcerer.

If he (or your other party members) need some more advice I have most of the handbooks people have put together as my Signature just below

[Azernak0]

Players not always being there is up to the DM to handle. Reduce the number of trash in a fight, maybe not have the boss fight act like a 100% intelligent enemy (IE, don't play for keeps so to speak), etc are valid ways of combating the "Dave isn't here today" aspect of DnD.

If he just plays a Blaster Wizard ala Tim without crazy optimization, I don't see how him being there or not being there will have a monstrous impact on the game.

[Yora]

X is as important as the DM makes it. Had many good games without healers.

[Larpus]

I played in a fairly low-optimisation campaign where someone new to the game took a wizard. The DM thought it a better choice than a sorceror where choosing the wrong spells is relatively permanent. Bad move - he never knew what to memorise or when to cast it.
I would suggest sorceror over warlock - more flexible to make him feel useful (even if badly played a sorceror should be useful) - it's one of the easiest classes to actually play. The only trick is spell selection on leveling and people can help with that (also sticking mainly to core makes it easier) and a friendly DM can allow spell switching if a bad choice is made (there's also the retraining rules from PHB2).
I agree with this, having too many options every time you have to prepare your spells can be daunting and confusing for someone not used to this.

Not only that, but spontaneous casters also have more spells/day, so it's easier on the whole mind game of "spend vs. conserve" that any newbie to casters will face.

EDIT: As for how important the Wizard is...depends on what the DM throws at you, as others noted, but overall, it's nice to have a Wizard around, but hardly needed (other than dealing with arcane jibber jabber).

Either way, for the situational but life-saving spells, he can just scribe scrolls which the Rogue, with maxed Use Magic Device can then use (this has also been suggested already in this very thread).

[Flickerdart]

A wizard is only as important as the size of his hat. The bigger his hat, the more important the wizard.

[Namfuak]

A wizard is only as important as the size of his hat. The bigger his hat, the more important the wizard.

And his monocle. Beholder Mages are very powerful because they can wear so many monocles.

[Slipperychicken]

For a player entirely new to the game? I do not recommend Wizard at all. The class is extremely complicated, and when played poorly (like a newbie is very likely to do) amounts to little more than a Commoner with a fancy book and better saves. Seriously, your player will likely have a bit of trouble adjusting to the idea of roleplaying, the base mechanics, and will likely be overwhelmed or disappointed with the bookkeeping required of a Wizard. It's better to lighten the load, at least for now :smallsmile:.


If you want a newbie to deal hp-damage with a magic-user, Sorcerer might be your best option. It takes a lot less work, and s/he can be good at social skills to boot. Load up on blasty spells and go to town :smallamused:. Maybe give the Sorc a Reserve feat or two (like Fiery Burst, Invisible Needle, the Lightning one, etc.) so the player doesn't feel the need to hoard spells to last through the day.

[killem2]

I played in a fairly low-optimisation campaign where someone new to the game took a wizard. The DM thought it a better choice than a sorceror where choosing the wrong spells is relatively permanent. Bad move - he never knew what to memorise or when to cast it.
I would suggest sorceror over warlock - more flexible to make him feel useful (even if badly played a sorceror should be useful) - it's one of the easiest classes to actually play. The only trick is spell selection on leveling and people can help with that (also sticking mainly to core makes it easier) and a friendly DM can allow spell switching if a bad choice is made (there's also the retraining rules from PHB2).

After getting into it, I have to say psionic powers are some of the easiest ways of a magic like class.

[Analytica]

To answer the question posed in the thread title, unless your party consists of an Artificer, a Factotum, an Archivist and a Psion, the wizard is the MOST important.
More important than any NPC in the world, more important than any other party member, probably more important than the majority of the setting's gods.

Wait, what? OK, I get hyperbole, but... is this really what it's like in most people's games? Such high "survival of the fittest" levels that, unless you can use complex wizard tricks, the game would feel much harder? It doesn't match my experience.

By the way, wasn't there a section in one of the Complete books with WotC suggestsions on how to handle missing one or more "iconic" party role? Complete Adventurer, maybe?

[MrBanana]

For a player entirely new to the game? I do not recommend Wizard at all. The class is extremely complicated, and when played poorly (like a newbie is very likely to do) amounts to little more than a Commoner with a fancy book and better saves. Seriously, your player will likely have a bit of trouble adjusting to the idea of roleplaying, the base mechanics, and will likely be overwhelmed or disappointed with the bookkeeping required of a Wizard. It's better to lighten the load, at least for now :smallsmile:.


If you want a newbie to deal hp-damage with a magic-user, Sorcerer might be your best option. It takes a lot less work, and s/he can be good at social skills to boot. Load up on blasty spells and go to town :smallamused:. Maybe give the Sorc a Reserve feat or two (like Fiery Burst, Invisible Needle, the Lightning one, etc.) so the player doesn't feel the need to hoard spells to last through the day.

Well, you see, all four of us are new to the game. So, I guess I'll he take suggest Sorcerer. Nothing was set in stone, it was just my suggestion.

All that fancy Wizard stuff is way too much for anyone of us. Besides, as playing the Barbarian, those tactical spells are too indirect for me.

[Man on Fire]

He's like Batman - the Justice League can win when he's not around, but it's never as easy as when he is.

Because somebody else gets knocked out to show how strong the villain is :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

The rouge should be able to handle all the common special encounters with his find tropes ability.

More seriously the cleric gets area damage a level behind in power compared to the wizard, which is passable enough for dealing with large crowds. He has invisibility purge instead of see invisibility. He has air walk instead of fly. You might consider spiritual weapon or another [force] spell for incorporeal foes to replace magic missile. He can't do half of what the wizard does and the other half he can't do as well, but he can cover the necesities about a spell level later. And he's better at removing debilitating conditions of course.

[demigodus]

Well, you see, all four of us are new to the game. So, I guess I'll he take suggest Sorcerer. Nothing was set in stone, it was just my suggestion.

All that fancy Wizard stuff is way too much for anyone of us. Besides, as playing the Barbarian, those tactical spells are too indirect for me.

If you guys are new to the game, and your arcane caster (wizard or sorcerer) will be focused on blowing stuff up with magic, then you will be fine even if the arcane caster doesn't show up in some sessions.

Out of curiosity, how experienced is your DM though? If he is new to the game, he might need some tips so that he doesn't throw encounters at you that WotC claims to be trivial, but are utterly brutal...

[MrRigger]

Like that damn crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) for instance. +19 on your grapple check will kill at least one part member if faced as a level 3 party almost all the time. It's possible to beat without losing party members, but it's tough if anyone at all gets in melee range.

MrRigger

[Slipperychicken]

Well, you see, all four of us are new to the game. So, I guess I'll he take suggest Sorcerer. Nothing was set in stone, it was just my suggestion.

All that fancy Wizard stuff is way too much for anyone of us. Besides, as playing the Barbarian, those tactical spells are too indirect for me.

Another cool idea, which I just noticed above: Psionics. If your player is familiar with the concept of "mana points", its pretty simple, comparatively. You have a certain amount of Mana Power Points each day, and can put more points into a single power (up to a maximum of your manifester level) to increase its strength. If someone in your group knows (or is willing to learn and explain) how Psionics work, you can try this too.

So yeah, Psions and Sorcerers are both easier to use than Wizard, are spontaneous, and are good at damage.

[TuggyNE]

And his monocle. Beholder Mages are very powerful because they can wear so many monocles.

I thought it was because they can wear enormous hats!

[MrBanana]

Another cool idea, which I just noticed above: Psionics. If your player is familiar with the concept of "mana points", its pretty simple, comparatively. You have a certain amount of Mana Power Points each day, and can put more points into a single power (up to a maximum of your manifester level) to increase its strength. If someone in your group knows (or is willing to learn and explain) how Psionics work, you can try this too.

So yeah, Psions and Sorcerers are both easier to use than Wizard, are spontaneous, and are good at damage.

We don't have the expansion books for psionics.

And my DM is inexperienced, yeah, but he's smart. He won't throw anything too bad at us.

[Flickerdart]

We don't have the expansion books.

And my DM is inexperienced, yeah, but he's smart. He won't throw anything too bad at us.
Psionics are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), and has a healthy amount of free content (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) on the WotC site to boot.

[Togo]

You'll be fine without a wizard/sorceror. I think a sorceror is actually slightly harder for a new player to play - the whole having to choose spells each time problem is mainly a problem in campaigns where the wizard can buy huge numbers of them.

Mainly what you'll be missing is the ability to slow down or stop monsters without killing them. So you're more likely to get outmanoevred, surrounded, etc. At low levels, there isn't really a problem.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

In point of fact, I've been in many groups that didn't have the "Wizard" spot filled. It's hardly a game-ruiner. It does reduce the ability of the party to solve more difficult noncombat problems, but that's not the end of the world. A Wizard-less party is more likely to behave in predictable ways, giving the DM more control without resorting to fiat railroading. Honestly, I think the game plays better like that.

Since you indicated most of the group is new to DnD, I am going to back up this statement. It works great. If you want an arcane touch to the party, a warlock or a bard, for example, will work much better. Much simpler from the arcane point of view, the build really can not go wrong and will allways be a contribution.

I've seen so many 'fresh' players litteraly drown in a full caster class. Drowning being just about as efficient as a commoner, just because they had no idea what their spells could do and when which one was effective at what moment. Introduce that (arcane) bit slowly through 'secondary' caster classes. It will work out fine. A party does not need (arcane) magic to survive. It just makes life easier, but only if the player in question knows what he is doing.

[Oscredwin]

I've seen so many 'fresh' players litteraly drown in a full caster class.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Eldan]

Hey, maybe he uses the bottom of full water barrels to write his caster sheets.

Edit: Hey, another Swiss Person! That makes three of us on this forum, to my knowledge.

[Endarire]

A Wizard can solo the game from ECL1. I'm already in the process (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=103.0).

In my opinion, a well-played Wizard is the most important role/class in the game. Besides, what's preventing y'all from having 2 Wizards?

[JellyPooga]

Wizards are not, in many peoples experience, the be-all and end-all of D&D. In most low-op/inexperienced games, especially at lower levels, Wizards can even seem somewhat lacklustre until the player in question has spent the best part of a week, or more, reading and sussing out the list of spells he potentially has available. Until that point, he's probably going to be saying "What gives? Magic Missile does less damage than my crossbow! I'm gonna be a Ranger next time, they get class features, full BAB and a whole heap of skill points" and looking for a way to get in the way of someones sword so he can roll a new character.

As for the importance of Wizards in the party, they really don't have a dedicated place. Anything a Wizard can do can pretty much be replicated by other classes. The only real advantage of the Wizard is that he can do (more or less) everything that everyone else can do put together. This does not make him neccesary; it makes him the primary backup, the emergency generator, the fail-safe mechanism. Of the 'classic' party of Fighting Man, Magic-User, Thief and Cleric, the M-U is the only one no-one really misses when he's gone; the meat-shield takes the hits, the thief finds and disarms the traps and everyone likes the cleric. Poor old magic man is the one giving everyone else ear-ache because he wants to stop and rest again.

[Eldan]

Oh yes. My first character was an elven wizard. The happiest point in his career was when, around level 3, he finally had enough gold to buy himself a longsword and a longbow (he was proficient with it, even!) and go to town (18 dex and cat's grace! Hell yeah! I kick ass with bow!)

That was until he learned fireball and flying.

That said, there are things a caster can do no one else easily can. Dispelling magical barriers. Flying across chasms. Teleporting or planeshifting the party. And so on.

[JellyPooga]

That said, there are things a caster can do no one else easily can. Dispelling magical barriers. Flying across chasms. Teleporting or planeshifting the party. And so on.

Certainly at higher levels, I concede, the Wizard has his place in the party, but below level 7 (give or take) he's pretty much throwing around fairly minor buffs and the odd 'nuke' spell to clear out a goblin nest to save the Barbarian the effort of individually slaying them.