Can you do epic skill usage when not epic level?

[animewatcha]

I tried googling and no luck. Skills like bluff that have the epic usage thing of instilling suggestion by adding 50 to the dc. With all the ways to get modifers ( I don't know all of them, just that apparently you can get +200 to bluff by level 20 ) can you use bluff at say character level 6 to try and instill suggestion ( and pray for nat 20 ) via bluff skill?

Or do you need atleast 23 or 24 or whatever epic ranks in the skill?

[Hirax]

You can use them before level 21. It's not a feature I'm fond of given how easy it is to pump skill checks, but yes, you can disguise your surface thoughts, slip through walls of force, and other such feats before level 21.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not a feature I'm fond of given how easy it is to pump skill checks, but yes, you can disguise your surface thoughts, slip through walls of force, and other such feats before level 21.
In exactly what way is it easy to slip through a Wall of Force before level 21?

[Little Brother]

In exactly what way is it easy to slip through a Wall of Force before level 21?It's only DC 120. Guidance of the Avatar, Wieldskill, etc make this easy.

[Slipperychicken]

It's only DC 120. Guidance of the Avatar, Wieldskill, etc make this easy.

IMO, the moment Guidance of the Avatar, skill-boosting items greater than +10, or Item Familiars come into play, it crosses the line into "not easy" territory :smalltongue:


Also, Guidance of the Avatar and Wieldskill are both Competence Bonuses, so the former obsoletes the latter at level 3.

[deuxhero]

Less said about the spelunker, the better.

[demigodus]

IMO, the moment Guidance of the Avatar, skill-boosting items greater than +10, or Item Familiars come into play, it crosses the line into "not easy" territory :smalltongue:

some people have different levels that they consider base optimization I guess?

[Slipperychicken]

some people have different levels that they consider base optimization I guess?

I suppose, but isn't hitting DC 120 pre-epic the sort of thing which needs near-infinite loops, or an entire build dedicated to it?


EDIT: By "not easy" I mean either diverting significant resources from a character's core competencies, or doing things which reasonable GMs generally do not allow (like item familiars, Ice Assassins, personal demiplanes, etc).

[Little Brother]

I suppose, but isn't hitting DC 120 pre-epic the sort of thing which needs near-infinite loops, or an entire build dedicated to it?I see splashing Factotum 3 and Marshal 1, both key to getting your skill high, in quite a lot of melee builds, for combat maneuvers. Convenience.

[Slipperychicken]

In exactly what way is it easy to slip through a Wall of Force before level 21?

If you consider casting Dimension Door or using similar means of dimensional travel to be "slipping through"? :smalltongue:

[demigodus]

I suppose, but isn't hitting DC 120 pre-epic the sort of thing which needs near-infinite loops, or an entire build dedicated to it?


EDIT: By "not easy" I mean either diverting significant resources from a character's core competencies, or doing things which reasonable GMs generally not allow (like item familiars, Ice Assassins, personal demiplanes, etc).

I don't know. I'm one of those who would put a 120 DC at pre-epics to be "really damn hard". I have never gotten a skill check in those ballparks before.

[Hirax]

You're reading too much into off the cuff examples, though I wouldn't be at all surprised if it can be done. I remember reading about someone abusing the rules for passing through tight spaces with ease, with all the spells that pump skill checks it wouldn't surprise me. Otherwise, the much more useful epic skill that I have used pre-epic is defeating illusion with spot checks. I have managed to disguise my surface thoughts while under the effects of glibness, to toy with a party member with at will detect thoughts. This was expensive to maintain, but the artificer and I were having so much fun with it that he started brewing potions of it so he could join in and we could keep it up more easily. The potions were medicine as far as anyone else knew, thanks to our stupidly high bluff checks. Epic autohypnosis checks are also easy to hit and useful to remain conscious while below 0 HP. Free standing with a tumble check is also something I've used many times. I haven't done it on any of my characters that have taken forgery, but given how few people put ranks into forgery to oppose the check, forging things without a sample isn't difficult. Every incantatrix loves (or should love) spellcraft's epic usages, of course, anything that replaces identify is good. The 70+CL DC is likely only achievable in the high teens or at 20. And of course, sleight of hand's epic shenanigans are well documented, due to the fact that there's no RAW way to oppose sleight of hand checks, only to notice that they took place.

[VGLordR2]

I had a DM once who told us to combine the Jump, Tumble, and Balance skills into a single one: Acrobatics. Anything that gave a bonus to one of the three skills instead gave the bonus to the Acrobatics skill. He happened to forget the Jump bonuses from high movement speeds. So, my character with a base land speed of 300 spent a lot of time walking on clouds.

[Curmudgeon]

Can a single level 20 character even make that DC 120 Escape Artist check unassisted? (Without breaking the stacking and other rules, that is.)

[Little Brother]

Can a single level 20 character even make that DC 120 Escape Artist check unassisted? (Without breaking the stacking and other rules, that is.)Very easily.

[Curmudgeon]

Very easily.
I think you're going to have to substantiate that claim. You've already suggested one combination (Guidance of the Avatar, Wieldskill) that Slipperychicken torpedoed.

[Little Brother]

Let's see... Let's go with a Primordial Halfgiant. Unseelie Fey and Magic Blooded, too.

That gives us, with a 16 in dex, int, and cha, a 16, 20, and 24. Now, at level 20, that'll give it, let's see, 40 Cha.

Now, let's go with(Since I want to make this a useful build), off the top of my head, Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Psychic Rogue 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Psychic Rogue +1, using Dynamic Priest for casting

Now, 23 ranks+5(Dex with +4 buff)+15(Motivate dex)+7(Brain over brawn, +4 buff). Before anything else, that gives us 50. Nice start, I think. Now, let's add Guidance for 70. Masterwork tool for 72. Ioun stone and karma bead give us CL 15. Agony can give us 17. Let's throw in a Greater Consumptive Field for 25. Moment of Prescience through Miracle. +97. Greater Heroism puts us up to 101. You can take a 20 from there, but let's see if we can get at least +19 more. Polymorph can turn us into an effigy of an air elemental, for 15, or +8 dex, putting us at 105(There might be better forms, this is just off the top of my head). If we weasel into getting Shapechange(I can think of a couple ways), we instead turn into a gloom, for a +115 bonus. Okay. Happy? I don't have most of my books on me, so I'm missing some ideas, but I avoided garbage like skill focus.

This is, by the way, excluding things like nanobots. You're welcome.

[SowZ]

I've seen enough builds that get skills so high, (that is where the build actually focuses on that one thing to the exclusion of other usefulness and with lots of books and time spent,) that dwarf even that so I will never again doubt the abilities of people to easily get a skill up to whatever they please without resorting to any real rules exploitations.

[Hirax]

Wiz5/incantatrix10/wyrm wizard4/factotum1

23 ranks, factotum at the end ensures we can top things off at the end despite having to spend 2 points per rank up to that point, and also grants its int bonus to the check.
23 - Shapechanging into a gloom, +8 enhancement bonus necrotic empowerment, +2 greater visage of the deity, results in 56 dex.
16 - Improvisation, assuming persisted consumptive field with minimal (in these circumstances) effort put toward casting it at a high CL. A ring of arcane might, bead of karma, magic tattoo, and ioun stone allow us to cast consumptive field at CL24, which grants a +12 CL bonus. The stone, ring, and tattoo then make for an all day CL of 32. Spells learned/cast by miracle or wyrm wizard.
15 - Divine insight, obtained via wyrm wizard or miracle (obtained via arcane disciple (luck), of course).
17 - 18, +2 (grey elf), +8 necrotic empowerment, +5 leveling, +3 venerable, +4 inherent, +4 greater visage of the deity (obtained from arcane disciple balance/competition/onemoreIcan'tthinkof, or miracle). I'm using factotum's cunning insight for the competence bonus.
4 - Greater heroism
2 - Agile :smallfrown:
20 - Due to the fact that it takes a minute to perform the action anyway, this is strictly an out of combat option, so you may as well take 20. Plus you probably need to take a minute to cast all the spells that you didn't have persisted. Unlike other skill checks such as open lock, there's no mechanism to boost the DC to reduce the action time.

The character is actually quite playable, though the level of factotum on the end makes it very inelegant. The feats that are required (arcane disciple (luck and competition or balance or thirdoptionIcan'tremember) and necrotic cyst) are pretty good, with the obvious exception of agile. However, there are many ways you could dump the need for that feat, the easy one would simply be to use guidance of the avatar or an item familiar, for instance. I got bored looking for less sinister ways to boost checks pretty quickly, I'm sure multiple other options will be posted.

It's also worth pointing out that most of these bonuses work for any skill check, with tweaking this could probably get +100 to any skill check, provided you had the ranks in it. +100 to a check where you had no ranks would be very tricky, though.

Also, anyone suggesting wieldskill might want to take a look at PGTF, where it was nerfed, making it irrelevant in this thread. Moment of prescience is also unhelpful because this is not an opposed check.

Edit: I made a major error, cunning insight doesn't apply to skill checks, I got my wires crossed. An ad hoc fix, if you don't want to use guidance of the avatar, is greater slick armor and skill focus.

Edit2: Oh hey, look what I found in the Spell Compendium in search of something to dump skill focus and agility:

SHADOW FORM
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Assassin 4, sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Shadows rise from the ground to envelop
you. The shadows easily move with you,
guiding your steps and how to hold your
body.
While this spell is in effect, you gain
a number of benefi ts. The shadows
wrapping your form grant you a +4
competence bonus on Escape Artist,
Hide, and Move Silently checks. Your
shadowy form also provides you with
concealment. This shadowy concealment
is not negated by a see invisibility
spell, but a true seeing spell counteracts
the effect. Standing within the radius
of a daylight spell or in bright natural
sunlight temporarily suppresses the
concealment effect.
In addition, if you have 5 ranks in
Escape Artist, you can attempt to slip
through a solid object or barrier up to
5 feet thick with a DC 20 Escape Artist
check, though doing this ends the spell
as soon as the attempt is completed
(regardless of success). If you have 10
ranks in Escape Artist, you can attempt
to pass through an object or barrier up
to 10 feet thick. If you have 15 ranks in
Escape Artist, you can attempt to pass
through a barrier composed of magical
force (or similar magical obstacles).
Material Component: A small piece
of black cloth taken from a funeral
shroud.

Wizard2/human paragon3/incantatrix8/uncanny trickster3/mindbender1/divine oracle3 could pull this off while still being a decent skill monkey and powerhouse wizard.

[Ceaon]

some people have different levels that they consider base optimization I guess?

This. So very much.

[kardar233]

I suppose, but isn't hitting DC 120 pre-epic the sort of thing which needs near-infinite loops, or an entire build dedicated to it?

Sometimes. Entire builds dedicated to a single skill can be pretty damn awesome, though. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12282699&postcount=31) build has a Dvati twin pair who can make DC 100 Sleight of Hand checks to make each other disappear and reappear 10 feet away as a free action. Think of all you could do with that.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Epic-level checks are not only allowed pre-epic, but they're possible in E6:

A Draconic Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar Marshal 1/Dragon Shaman 5 could be an epic-level face, for example (but would require buying off that one level to do so, or taking the reduced Point Buy option). With 18 base CHA, we end up with 24 CHA, for a +7 modifier. Motivate Charisma adds another +7 to this, and grants Skill Focus (Diplomacy) to boot, so we're up to +17. A Silver Dragon Shaman who grabs some method of keeping Marshal's Diplomacy class skill throughout (Martial Study [some White Raven maneuver]?) has Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate as class skills, gets Skill Focus in two (Diplomacy and Bluff) and a +2 racial bonus in the third (Intimidate). If we have 9 ranks in each, we gain the +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate from Bluff, so our respective bonuses to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate are at +26/+28/+27.

Now, with the Dragon Shaman levels, we grab the Presence Aura for a constant +2 to all three skills, and then at fifth level, trade our Draconic Aura for Draconic Invocation, grabbing Beguiling Influence for another +6. We're now at +34/+36/+35 for our three skills, just using the benefits of race, class features, and skill ranks. The feats Negotiator and Persuasive (lets say, at 3rd and 6th, following that Martial Study, and ignore "epic feats" entirely) grant +2 bonuses to Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff and Intimidate, so we're at +36/+38/+37, respectively. Let's say the character also takes 5 ranks in Sense Motive, granting it another +2 to Diplomacy (+36/+40/+37). Amulet of Wordtwisting gives a +2 insight bonus to each, so we're at +38/+42/+39. A +10 competence bonus on each from magic items would bring us to +48/+52/+49, or Guidance of the Avatar bumps this to +58/+62/+59. Without Guidance of the Avatar, these are your results for taking 10: enough to turn a hostile person helpful, or a friendly person into a fanatic. This alone is enough to give good odds on instilling a Suggestion with a Bluff check (which improve significantly with a wand of Guidance of the Avatar), and hasn't even begun to do some of the crazier things that skill optimization allows (even in exclusively lower-level play). There is no epic check for Intimidate, but the Fearsome armor property gives another +5 (enhancement) to Intimidate and allows you to demoralize as a move action; with a +54 to your check and Imperious Command at your disposal, you could, if taking 10 is a possibility, fear-lock and subsequently kill a Great Wyrm Black Dragon (which has a 1d20 modifier of +42), although it will take a long time to do it.

As for Hide, Balance and Tumble, a Magic-Blooded Grey Elf Factotum 1/Marshal 1/Factotum 2-5 (and possibly better) can, with 32 Point Buy, get 18 in DEX, INT and CHA with +0 LA, which Motivate Dexterity and Brains over Brawn would allow you to combine for the purpose of bonuses to Hide and Tumble, for a total of +12 to all three skills. 9 ranks in each gives you a +21 to all three, and synergies alone can improve Balance and Tumble to +23, and masterwork items for each would improve that to +25/+23/+25 (in alphabetical order).

Now, for items: Skin of Nimbleness improves Tumble by +10 (competence), Badge of the Svirfneblin improves Hide by +5 (competence) in addition to Darkvision 30 ft (and Hat of Anonymity provides another untyped +5), or Skin of the Chameleon can provide a +10 (competence), Camouflage Paint provides a +5 circumstance bonus to Hide, and the Balance property provides a +5 (competence) to Balance (the caster level for Improved and Greater can be met, for up to +15, but let's assume a hard limit is imposed, with 6 for non-Artificers and 8 for Artificers). If we take the most favorable benefits all around, we're up to +30 Balance, +43 Hide, and +35 Tumble, and Chronocharm of the Fateweaver can allow a reroll of Balance and Tumble 1/day. The +5 from Cunning Knowledge stacks with all the above (as far as I know?), so 1/day, you have +35 Balance, +48 Hide, and +40 Tumble. Assuming you Take 10 (or simply get an average result) on each, you can tightrope walk with your Balance check (DC 40), Hide Another (check result -30) with a +18 bonus after modifiers, free stand (DC 35), make "10-foot" steps (DC 40), ignore 30 feet of falling damage (DC 40), and climb vertical surfaces (DC 50). If I wanted, I could use Arcane Dilettante to grab Alter Self and be a Skulk (for +15 to Hide), Phaerlock (+4 Balance), or Mountain Spirit Folk (+2 to Tumble), or take Skill Focus (any of these three), or any other skill boosters, or use a wand of Guidance of the Avatar for the extra +10, or +15 on Balance (total +20 competence). A Phaerlock with Guidance of the Avatar has a +54 on Balance and can take 10 while walking on hair-thin surfaces; a Skulk can Hide Another with a +43 on the roll (or hide two others with a +13, if that's allowed), and a Mountain Spirit Folk can... Ignore another 10 feet of fall damage on a roll of 8 or better.

These are fairly cheese-free, mid-op solutions (albeit with the assumption of lots of disposable wealth), available at 6th level. They aren't "pass through a Wall of Force" or "walk on clouds" insane, but epic skill checks are entirely plausible within the first 6 levels if you build toward it (and do not require you to be completely dysfunctional as a character in the doing).

As for whether it is legal to use these: yes, it is, because beating a skill check DC does not ever have a skill rank requirement (except in that some skills are "trained only". Of the 10 people in my gaming group, the Elf Dilettante/Bardic Knack Bard has the highest Jump check (thanks to a Ring of Jumping acquired as an item drop), therefore he has the highest chance of hitting the highest DCs. It doesn't matter that he has no actual ranks in Jump.

[ThiagoMartell]

This is, by the way, excluding things like nanobots. You're welcome.

You barely managed it and required plenty of resources, a very specific build using 3rd party material and polymorph shenaningans.
His point stands, it's not easy.

[Curmudgeon]

Let's see... Let's go with a Primordial Halfgiant. Unseelie Fey and Magic Blooded, too.
Magic Blooded is a 3.0 template in Dragon # 306. The article subhead says, in capital letters: TEMPLATES FOR PC RACES. Below that it says:
The following racial variants can be used to create new subraces based on any of the standard races in the Player's Handbook. Half-Giant doesn't qualify, and any non-updated 3.0 content needs to be adjusted by each individual DM anyway (see DMG page 4).

Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) is LA +1, and Giant type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#giantType). Unseelie Fey changes that to Fey type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType). Only Humanoid type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) allows 1 HD creatures to exchange that Humanoid HD for their first class level, so you'll retain that monster hit die.

Now, let's go with(Since I want to make this a useful build), off the top of my head, Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Psychic Rogue 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Psychic Rogue +1 With 20 class levels, LA +1, and 1 RHD you'll be an ECL 22 character. From page 209 of Dungeon Master's Guide:
The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels.

Half-Giant has Favored Class: Psychic Warrior. Primordial adds Favored Class: Sorcerer. Your build has neither of those. From page 60 of Player's Handbook:
Your multiclass character suffers a –20% penalty to XP for each class that is not within one level of his or her highest-level class. These penalties apply from the moment the character adds a class or raises a class’s level too high. Starting after Marshal 1 you're paying a 20% XP penalty. Starting after Psychic Rogue 1 you're paying a 40% XP penalty. That penalty drops back to 20% From Psychic Rogue 2 to Psychic Rogue 4, but it's back up to 40% from Psychic Rogue 5 and thereafter.

, using Dynamic Priest for casting Dynamic Priest is a feat in Legends of the Twins by Sovereign Press; it's for Dragonlance, not D&D.

... Okay. Happy?
Since you failed in the basic goal of not going into Epic levels, broke a bunch of rules, and also required enough XP to get to 28th level for characters not paying multiclass penalties? No, I can't say I'm happy at all.

[Kazyan]

Basically: you can't just whip out your Wizard and hit these sans-finagling, or even with finagling if you're only a Wizard (snrk), but if you want to teleport as a free action, you'll have leeway to do other things with the build. The Dvati demontrates that. Other skills may less or more straightjacketing when you need to hit epic DCs; Jump masters just need to borrow a few buffs, but Concentration will make you throw up your hands and call for that Exemplar class feature that everyone forgets about.

[Curmudgeon]

A Draconic Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar Marshal 1/Dragon Shaman 5
...
As for whether it is legal to use these: yes, it is
No, it's not. See my longer post above, in which I quoted the Dragon magazine article restrictions on Magic Blooded.

[Lonely Tylenol]

No, it's not. See my longer post above, in which I quoted the Dragon magazine article restrictions on Magic Blooded.

:smallannoyed:

Legal to use epic skill checks.

Putting aside the obvious pedantry involved in which old 3.0 language which has no bearing in which the new Player's Handbook was actually written, when grandfathered in and scrutinized from the strictest of standpoints, would include an Elf but exclude a Gray Elf from being eligible for Magic-Blooded if you take "can" to mean the extent of your functional limits of use, instead of "can" in the sense of a suggestion, a "rule" which has never ever EVER borne itself out in actual table play (as evidenced by the thousands upon thousands of "Magic-Blooded X" builds and threads that have never been met with "you can't apply Magic-Blooded to your Water Orc, that's a non-PHB racial variant"), and in fact conceding the point because to the nine Hells with splitting hairs with RAW, oh my goodness that is so incredibly not the point here...

For the face build, switch the base race to Half-Elf (which gets a +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy). It now breaks even on its Diplomacy check, and loses 2 on its Bluff and Intimidate, for end check results of +56/+62/+57 with Guidance of the Avatar. Or, use Unseelie Fey for no net difference.

For the dextrous build, replace Magic-Blooded with Unseelie Fey (if you really want to go there :smallannoyed:) for a net +1 to all DEX-based skills, or simply get rid of all templates for a net -1 to all DEX-based skills. Depending on the route you take, your skill checks (post-Alter Self and Guidance of the Avatar) are either +53 or +55 Balance, +72 or +74 Hide, and +51 or +53 Tumble.

So... You're still making the same epic DCs reliably... With the same modifiers... Or better, thanks to the new modifications.

What's more, your post never addressed or even contested that it was legal to make an epic skill check pre-epic levels by virtue of the fact that there are no skill rank requirements, because you decided to just edit out the second half of my sentence and take my post out of context instead.

Now, ask yourself: What has your pedantry and blatant misquoting in stark defiance of basic context earned you here? :smallannoyed:

[Curmudgeon]

:smallannoyed:

Legal to use epic skill checks.
...
What's more, your post never addressed or even contested that it was legal to make an epic skill check pre-epic levels ...
Why would I do that? There's nothing in the rules prohibiting it; it's a question answered by Hirax in the response immediately following the question. That issue was settled 25 posts ago. :smallsigh: Now it's just the details of how.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Why would I do that? There's nothing in the rules prohibiting it; it's a question answered by Hirax in the response immediately following the question. That issue was settled 25 posts ago. :smallsigh: Now it's just the details of how.

OK.

Does removing Magic-Blooded, and all the benefits therein, exclude either of the examples presented from making epic-level checks as a 6th-level character?

Does removing Magic-Blooded and replacing it with Unseelie Fey not provide the same benefit or better, with the same skill rank modifiers or better, yielding the same results or better?

If the answer to either of these questions is "no", then what was the point of intentionally misquoting me in the way that you did? :smallannoyed:

[Jarian]

.If the answer to either of these questions is "no", then what was the point of intentionally misquoting me in the way that you did? :smallannoyed:

Curmudgeonly behavior? :smallbiggrin:

I dunno, I've always found Curmudgeon to be sort of endearing. Whenever you see his posts you always know it's going to contain pedantry of the highest level, and microscopic hair-splitting. It's like how some people have signatures that you could identify on sight; you can always tell a Curmudgeon post just by reading it.

[Slipperychicken]

I dunno, I've always found Curmudgeon to be sort of endearing. Whenever you see his posts you always know it's going to contain pedantry of the highest level, and microscopic hair-splitting. It's like how some people have signatures that you could identify on sight; you can always tell a Curmudgeon post just by reading it.

I respect his knowledge of the rules and willingness to share it (even if it can come off as a bit.. Curmudgeonly. I can usually get past that and understand it's an analysis of the rules, rather than a message of "this is how you ought to play"), especially since it almost always answers the question I come here for: What do the rules, as written, say?

Hairs sometimes need to be split, and it's so much easier on the mind when someone else has already split them for you. Plus, he cites appropriate sources, so I can look in the books to see why he's right, if I ever feel skeptical :smalltongue:

[Little Brother]

Thiago: I'll have you note that my build wasn't focused on it. I was useful and powerful otherwise.

Huh. Dynamic Priest is 3rd party. I never personally used it that I can recall, so eh. And quibbling about multiclassing? Really?:smallsigh:

And the HD thing? Yeah, given that every fey/abbration/giant/etc. with the ability to take class levels are almost always shown ignoring that, cry me a river. Basically, LT said it for me.

But, now that I have my books available, I'll humor you with a simple build:

Strongheart Halfling Diviner 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Diviner +1
Base stats are, let's see, 6 STR/12 DEX/12 Con/18 Int/16 Wis/8 cha. Gear, let's see, a +5 and +4 tome(Wis and Int), +6 items for each. Let's add a CL20 command word activated Improv item, for 36k(I almost always take one around this level. Cheap and nifty), and whatever else an adventurer would want.
Let's see what we can do with no ranks. Guidance is +20, Divine Insight is +15, +4 from Greater Heroics, +2 from Masterwork tool, +25 from Moment of Prescience(Let's say, due to Consumptive Field) +7 from Dex(12+10(Divine Grace)+2(Grace)), and that puts us at a 73 before any difficulty appears. Shapechange into, say, a Gloom, for another +17, and that's at 90. Diviner lets me add 12, for 102. Natural 20 from Surge of Fortune, for 122. The improv item wasn't even necessary(I like it though). Either way, you're welcome.

Happy?

[animewatcha]

Okay thanks for answering. Next question along the same lines of 'builds'. Can someone tell me what different items/feats/PrCs ( not incarnum or ToB or anything else from those two books ) / templates/ etc. that can up bluff checks. NO LA. Also, no to evil or exalted. Basic idea being, Sidewinder monk that can lie with the best of them ( bluff as main thing, other things here and there as secondary ). Race being human ( offshoot of human that still allows bonus feat ), human paragon 1 for bluff skill, feat of arcane schooling - bard for glibness, and 1 level of tattoo'ed monk for the bluff tattoo. Mostly hilarity sake for out of combat. In combat, instill suggestion if possible.

DMs tend to have the opponent casters 'more fairly' toward the encounter versus 'caster ends everything in one round'. And are VERY MUCH against one of the party trying to do the same unless clever way ( like instill suggestion that the necromancer really 'doesn't need' to cast spells to get necro to skip turns ).

-sidenote: About the Legends of the Twins book, it has Wizards' logo so should be able to be used in normal game.

[Curmudgeon]

-sidenote: About the Legends of the Twins book, it has Wizards' logo so should be able to be used in normal game.
How is that relevant? Magic: The Gathering has Wizards' logo too. It's a different game.

[VGLordR2]

Okay thanks for answering. Next question along the same lines of 'builds'. Can someone tell me what different items/feats/PrCs ( not incarnum or ToB or anything else from those two books ) / templates/ etc. that can up bluff checks. NO LA. Also, no to evil or exalted. Basic idea being, Sidewinder monk that can lie with the best of them ( bluff as main thing, other things here and there as secondary ). Race being human ( offshoot of human that still allows bonus feat ), human paragon 1 for bluff skill, feat of arcane schooling - bard for glibness, and 1 level of tattoo'ed monk for the bluff tattoo. Mostly hilarity sake for out of combat. In combat, instill suggestion if possible.

DMs tend to have the opponent casters 'more fairly' toward the encounter versus 'caster ends everything in one round'. And are VERY MUCH against one of the party trying to do the same unless clever way ( like instill suggestion that the necromancer really 'doesn't need' to cast spells to get necro to skip turns ).

-sidenote: About the Legends of the Twins book, it has Wizards' logo so should be able to be used in normal game.

Glibness is a low level spell that gives a ridiculous +30 to Bluff.

[animewatcha]

How is that relevant? Magic: The Gathering has Wizards' logo too. It's a different game.

Helpful for those DMs that say only WOTC and/or dragon mag stuff no? No 3rd party stuff unless WOTC approved. Like the source for the Iron Legs feat.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Okay thanks for answering. Next question along the same lines of 'builds'. Can someone tell me what different items/feats/PrCs ( not incarnum or ToB or anything else from those two books ) / templates/ etc. that can up bluff checks. NO LA. Also, no to evil or exalted. Basic idea being, Sidewinder monk that can lie with the best of them ( bluff as main thing, other things here and there as secondary ). Race being human ( offshoot of human that still allows bonus feat ), human paragon 1 for bluff skill, feat of arcane schooling - bard for glibness, and 1 level of tattoo'ed monk for the bluff tattoo. Mostly hilarity sake for out of combat. In combat, instill suggestion if possible.

DMs tend to have the opponent casters 'more fairly' toward the encounter versus 'caster ends everything in one round'. And are VERY MUCH against one of the party trying to do the same unless clever way ( like instill suggestion that the necromancer really 'doesn't need' to cast spells to get necro to skip turns ).

-sidenote: About the Legends of the Twins book, it has Wizards' logo so should be able to be used in normal game.

I would say "be a CHA-focused Silverbrow Human Marshal 1/Factotum X" and take Motivate Charisma as your aura. Then, grab the Presence Draconic Aura from the Draconic Aura feat, and maybe dip either Warlock or Dragonfire Adept for Beguiling Presence. You've got +4 from the aura by level 20, +(20-x) from Factotum 1/day (where x is the number of non-Factotum levels you've taken; let's assume 18, with your dips being Martial and Dragonfire Adept), +6 from Beguiling Influence, +30 from Glibness (prepared via Arcane Dilettante), +2 from Amulet of Wordtwisting (don't laugh; it's an insight bonus), +20 from a custom skill item (I'm trying to appeal to the middle ground here, between "+10 is the practical limit" and "you're not optimizing skills if you don't have +30"), +3 from Skill Focus if you ever get around to it, Alter Self into a Lesser Tiefling for +2, and, of course, Glibness, and you have...

30 + 20 + 18 + 6 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 2 + (2*CHA) = +85 + (2*CHA). If your CHA was 18 at the start, +5 levels, +5 book, +6 item, we're at +34, or a +12 modifier, so your Bluff modifier would be +109.

OK, now somebody else do better, faster, easier and with less investment.

[Acanous]

Bard 8 Marshal 3 Heir of Siberys 3 Legendary Leader 5 with a straight-artificer Cohort.
I remember hitting DC 120 bluff and DC 100 Diplomacy pretty frequently, with the DM telling me I had to be epic level to hit Epic use of skills.

I recall my CHA was sitting at 18 (Base) +2 (Feat, Feykissed or somesuch) +4 (Level ups) +6 (Item) +5 (Book) for a total of 35. Motivate Charisma put my mod at +24. Ranks were an additional +22, feat +3, Synergy +2, so 51 before spellcasting (Moment of Prescience, Glibness, Guidance of the Avatar) or pulling artificer shennanigans.
The Artificer shennanigans I DID pull (Aside from breaking WBL) involved changing the bonus type given by items (As the artificer class feature) allowing me to add things like +6 CHA (Achemical bonus) +6 CHA (Luck bonus) +6 CHA (Infernal bonus) Etc.


Without the cohort, using Glibness and/or Moment of Prescience, you're looking at a fairly easy +100 to bluff. At level 19.

[Curmudgeon]

Helpful for those DMs that say only WOTC and/or dragon mag stuff no? No 3rd party stuff unless WOTC approved. Like the source for the Iron Legs feat.
That doesn't make any sense. So you think a D&D character can have a light saber because there's a Wizards of the Coast logo on the Star Wars Saga Edition book (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Roleplaying-Rulebook-Edition/dp/0786943564/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1), or a P90 submachine gun because of the logo on d20 Modern (http://www.amazon.com/d20-Modern-Roleplaying-Game-Rulebook/dp/0786928360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339225275&sr=1-1)?

If you're playing D&D you're limited to D&D sources ─ not Dragonlance, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Star Wars Saga, or d20 Modern.

[ThiagoMartell]

That doesn't make any sense. So you think a D&D character can have a light saber because there's a Wizards of the Coast logo on the Star Wars Saga Edition book (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Roleplaying-Rulebook-Edition/dp/0786943564/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1), or a P90 submachine gun because of the logo on d20 Modern (http://www.amazon.com/d20-Modern-Roleplaying-Game-Rulebook/dp/0786928360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339225275&sr=1-1)?

If you're playing D&D you're limited to D&D sources ─ not Dragonlance, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Star Wars Saga, or d20 Modern.

I'm forced to agree with Curmudgeon.

[Eronai_Jantig]

I'm forced to agree with Curmudgeon.

I'm not saying you two were wrong, but I never knew Dragonlance was it's own game until Curmudgeon brought it up. Is there a reason they separated it? I thought it was just another setting like FR or Eberron.

[Jarian]

If you're playing D&D you're limited to D&D sources ─ not Dragonlance, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Star Wars Saga, or d20 Modern.

Objection, Dragonlance Campaign Setting is a D&D 3.5 product, published for D&D by WoTC. It's even listed on their website under the 3.5 products. The other Dragonlance supplements (published by 3rd parties), however, are not.

(It feels so strange to be nitpicking Curmudgeon.)

Edit: inb4 Curmudgeon says he was only talking about the 3rd party books.

Edit2: Too slow.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not saying you two were wrong, but I never knew Dragonlance was it's own game until Curmudgeon brought it up. Is there a reason they separated it? I thought it was just another setting like FR or Eberron.
It was developed by different people, not separated later. Wizards of the Coast agreed to publish the original (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) book as part of the licensing deal, and stipulated some interoperability with D&D 3.5 in that book alone. Later books by Margaret Weis Productions, Ltd. and Sovereign Press are purely 3rd party books. Kingdoms of Kalamar by Kenzer & Company was designed to be an extension of D&D 3.0 rules, but it's not compatible with D&D 3.5. Licensed 3rd party books, except where there's an explicit exception as with Dragonlance Campaign Setting, are based on the D&D rules but are not D&D.
This d20 System® game accessory utilizes mechanics developed for the new DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® game by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker, and Peter Adkison. (That's from Bestiary of Krynn, Revised.)


(It feels so strange to be nitpicking Curmudgeon.)
When it's deserved, pick those nits. I made an overly broad statement: true for the Dynamic Priest feat, but not absolutely for all Dragonlance material because there's one book compatible with D&D.

[Eronai_Jantig]

It was developed by different people, not separated later. Wizards of the Coast agreed to publish the original (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) book as part of the licensing deal, and stipulated some interoperability with D&D 3.5 in that book alone. Later books by Margaret Weis Productions, Ltd. and Sovereign Press are purely 3rd party books. Kingdoms of Kalamar by Kenzer & Company was designed to be an extension of D&D 3.0 rules, but it's not compatible with D&D 3.5. Licensed 3rd party books, except where there's an explicit exception as with Dragonlance Campaign Setting, are based on the D&D rules but are not D&D. (That's from Bestiary of Krynn, Revised.)

Okay, thanks for the infodump!

[TuggyNE]

(It feels so strange to be nitpicking Curmudgeon.)

Can you count coup for a successful Curmudgeon nitpick? :smallwink:

[animewatcha]

Bard 8 Marshal 3 Heir of Siberys 3 Legendary Leader 5 with a straight-artificer Cohort.
I remember hitting DC 120 bluff and DC 100 Diplomacy pretty frequently, with the DM telling me I had to be epic level to hit Epic use of skills.

I recall my CHA was sitting at 18 (Base) +2 (Feat, Feykissed or somesuch) +4 (Level ups) +6 (Item) +5 (Book) for a total of 35. Motivate Charisma put my mod at +24. Ranks were an additional +22, feat +3, Synergy +2, so 51 before spellcasting (Moment of Prescience, Glibness, Guidance of the Avatar) or pulling artificer shennanigans.
The Artificer shennanigans I DID pull (Aside from breaking WBL) involved changing the bonus type given by items (As the artificer class feature) allowing me to add things like +6 CHA (Achemical bonus) +6 CHA (Luck bonus) +6 CHA (Infernal bonus) Etc.


Without the cohort, using Glibness and/or Moment of Prescience, you're looking at a fairly easy +100 to bluff. At level 19.

Can you quote in what book this is possible? Cause if so, I would like to 'abuse' this for like upping str/int/etc. when buying items for any class I play.

[Invader]

Thiago: I'll have you note that my build wasn't focused on it. I was useful and powerful otherwise.

Huh. Dynamic Priest is 3rd party. I never personally used it that I can recall, so eh. And quibbling about multiclassing? Really?:smallsigh:

And the HD thing? Yeah, given that every fey/abbration/giant/etc. with the ability to take class levels are almost always shown ignoring that, cry me a river. Basically, LT said it for me.

But, now that I have my books available, I'll humor you with a simple build:

Strongheart Halfling Diviner 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Diviner +1
Base stats are, let's see, 6 STR/12 DEX/12 Con/18 Int/16 Wis/8 cha. Gear, let's see, a +5 and +4 tome(Wis and Int), +6 items for each. Let's add a CL20 command word activated Improv item, for 36k(I almost always take one around this level. Cheap and nifty), and whatever else an adventurer would want.
Let's see what we can do with no ranks. Guidance is +20, Divine Insight is +15, +4 from Greater Heroics, +2 from Masterwork tool, +25 from Moment of Prescience(Let's say, due to Consumptive Field) +7 from Dex(12+10(Divine Grace)+2(Grace)), and that puts us at a 73 before any difficulty appears. Shapechange into, say, a Gloom, for another +17, and that's at 90. Diviner lets me add 12, for 102. Natural 20 from Surge of Fortune, for 122. The improv item wasn't even necessary(I like it though). Either way, you're welcome.

Happy?

Wouldn't moment of prescience only give you a +20?

And can you explain the divine grace bonus? The only divine grace I'm familiar with is the paladin ability.

[Little Brother]

Wouldn't moment of prescience only give you a +20?Caster level boosting. Easy to do. I like Consumptive Field, but other ways work. It's capped at 25.

And can you explain the divine grace bonus? The only divine grace I'm familiar with is the paladin ability.Divine Agility, sorry. SpC. +10 to dex.

[Invader]

Caster level boosting. Easy to do. I like Consumptive Field, but other ways work. It's capped at 25.
Divine Agility, sorry. SpC. +10 to dex.

Gotcha :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

Can you quote in what book this is possible? Cause if so, I would like to 'abuse' this for like upping str/int/etc. when buying items for any class I play.

Eberron Campaign Setting. It's in the artificer rundown.
Edit: Might be an infusion, it's been a while.

[Twilightwyrm]

Let's see... Let's go with a Primordial Halfgiant. Unseelie Fey and Magic Blooded, too.

That gives us, with a 16 in dex, int, and cha, a 16, 20, and 24. Now, at level 20, that'll give it, let's see, 40 Cha.

Now, let's go with(Since I want to make this a useful build), off the top of my head, Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Psychic Rogue 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Psychic Rogue +1, using Dynamic Priest for casting

Now, 23 ranks+5(Dex with +4 buff)+15(Motivate dex)+7(Brain over brawn, +4 buff). Before anything else, that gives us 50. Nice start, I think. Now, let's add Guidance for 70. Masterwork tool for 72. Ioun stone and karma bead give us CL 15. Agony can give us 17. Let's throw in a Greater Consumptive Field for 25. Moment of Prescience through Miracle. +97. Greater Heroism puts us up to 101. You can take a 20 from there, but let's see if we can get at least +19 more. Polymorph can turn us into an effigy of an air elemental, for 15, or +8 dex, putting us at 105(There might be better forms, this is just off the top of my head). If we weasel into getting Shapechange(I can think of a couple ways), we instead turn into a gloom, for a +115 bonus. Okay. Happy? I don't have most of my books on me, so I'm missing some ideas, but I avoided garbage like skill focus.

This is, by the way, excluding things like nanobots. You're welcome.

Can someone tell me what insane world of optimization exists where this is considered "very easy"? Because it's not just here, I see this sort of stuff all over the place, and it seems taken for granted that this is "simple".

[Little Brother]

Can someone tell me what insane world of optimization exists where this is considered "very easy"? Because it's not just here, I see this sort of stuff all over the place, and it seems taken for granted that this is "simple".I threw it together in less than five minutes AFB. Easy.

[Curmudgeon]

Does removing Magic-Blooded and replacing it with Unseelie Fey not provide the same benefit or better, with the same skill rank modifiers or better, yielding the same results or better?
No, that would actually result in an illegal E6 character because it would have 7 levels, including the 1 HD of Fey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType). If you used Magic Blooded with a Player's Handbook race you would still have a Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) character and be eligible for the "Humanoids and Class Levels" exchange wherein you would drop your sole racial HD for the first class level. That's not available to Fey generally, though Pixie PCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixiesAsCharacters) have a race-specific exchange. (There's a similar provision for Warforged, though the exchange is not available to Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) generally either.)

[Little Brother]

No, that would actually result in an illegal E6 character because it would have 7 levels, including the 1 HD of Fey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType). If you used Magic Blooded with a Player's Handbook race you would still have a Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) character and be eligible for the "Humanoids and Class Levels" exchange wherein you would drop your sole racial HD for the first class level. That's not available to Fey generally, though Pixie PCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixiesAsCharacters) have a race-specific exchange. (There's a similar provision for Warforged, though the exchange is not available to Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) generally either.)Meh. Level drain and restoration/thought bottles fix that problem.

[Curmudgeon]

Meh. Level drain and restoration/thought bottles fix that problem.
Level drain to 0 HD? That fixes all PC problems permanently, though it will create some monster issues.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight. Also, Restoration will restore (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/restore?s=t) ("to bring back to a former, original, or normal condition") a level.
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The spell doesn't provide an option to create a new, different level.

Also there's the basic problem of getting Restoration in E6.

[Little Brother]

Level drain to 0 HD? That fixes all PC problems permanently, though it will create some monster issues. Also, Restoration will restore (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/restore?s=t) ("to bring back to a former, original, or normal condition") a level. The spell doesn't provide an option to create a new, different level.

Also there's the basic problem of getting Restoration in E6.Sorry, but where does level drain specify the most recent level? And where does it specify that you have to take the same class in the restored level. The LEVEL is restored, not the class level.

Sorry bro. I respect your rules knowledge, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong here.

[Curmudgeon]

Sorry, but where does level drain specify the most recent level?
On page 49 of Rules Compendium:
LEVEL LOSS
A victim who loses a level loses the most recent level gained, losing one Hit Die along with a number of hit points equal to the average result of that die.

[Little Brother]

On page 49 of Rules Compendium:Do it immediately after character creation. They were all gained at the same time(Character creation), so either you get to choose, or its random.

[Ceaon]

Can someone tell me what insane world of optimization exists where this is considered "very easy"? Because it's not just here, I see this sort of stuff all over the place, and it seems taken for granted that this is "simple".


some people have different levels that they consider base optimization I guess?

Again, this. Some people, like Little Brother, seem to be good at optimization, so to them it may seem easy to get a +100 bonus to a skill. Others have less ready knowledge of the rules, less eye for combinations, less sources available, and/or other reasons that its harder for them to optimize. To those people, it seems hard to reach a +100 bonus to a skill.

It all depends on what your baseline level and your upper limit of acceptable
optimization are.

Edit:

Do it immediately after character creation. They were all gained at the same time(Character creation), so either you get to choose, or its random.

I don't think this is an elegant solution. For the character, he has gained these levels one at a time, even if for the player, all the levels were gained 'at once'. Isn't there a better way?

[Little Brother]

It is worth noting that there is a difference between easy for a build and easy for a player not focused. That Ur-Theurge can do it easily, but that's because he's two full casters.

It gets difficult when you aren't allowed full casters, but most any skill check is invalidated by full casters.

There is also a difference between easy to make, and easy to make on something that doesn't violate the Richard Rule. That build is easy to throw together, but I wouldn't bring it to the table, you know, unless we were explicitly playing a high-powered game..

[Curmudgeon]

Do it immediately after character creation. They were all gained at the same time(Character creation), so either you get to choose, or its random.
Again, that won't work, for the same two reasons.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Also I don't see any rules support for your highlighted statement. Restore, as I already cited, means "to bring back to a former, original, or normal condition". There's no choice, and no randomness: you restore that same level/hit die (if you can, which isn't possible if you're drained to 0 HD immediately after character creation).

[Little Brother]

Again, that won't work, for the same two reasons. Also I don't see any rules support for your highlighted statement. Restore, as I already cited, means "to bring back to a former, original, or normal condition". There's no choice, and no randomness: you restore that same level/hit die (if you can, which isn't possible if you're drained to 0 HD immediately after character creation).You get to choose what level is lost at that point. Do you disagree with this?

If not, then, when you restore, it does restore you to level X. Level X does not mean Class X/Y/Z.

This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level.Now, where do you see it restores a level? I don't. I see it restores a one EXPERIENCE level, which lets you put that XP to whatever you want. You are seeing words that aren't there.

Unless the SRD is a bunch of treasonous lies spread by, let's say, separatist muskrats?

[Lonely Tylenol]

No, that would actually result in an illegal E6 character because it would have 7 levels, including the 1 HD of Fey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType). If you used Magic Blooded with a Player's Handbook race you would still have a Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) character and be eligible for the "Humanoids and Class Levels" exchange wherein you would drop your sole racial HD for the first class level. That's not available to Fey generally, though Pixie PCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixiesAsCharacters) have a race-specific exchange. (There's a similar provision for Warforged, though the exchange is not available to Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) generally either.)

The face is a Magic-Blooded Half-Elf (for a net even on Diplomacy and a -2 to the other socials), or simply takes a beneficial LA+1 race or template and uses the E6 guidelines for level adjustment (Draconic Lesser Aasimar?), or buys off the template, for no net change. The stealth character is untemplated (for a net -1 to all DEX-based skills), or... Buys off the single level adjustment (but does not use revised point buy guidelines, as there is no way to get triple 18s otherwise). Both still make epic-level checks with certainty.

Anything else?

[Curmudgeon]

You get to choose what level is lost at that point. Do you disagree with this?
Yes, of course I disagree. At character creation you first have 1 racial HD of Fey; there is no other possibility. Level loss at that point means the character is instantly slain. All class levels must come after that, and you must always lose the most recently acquired level (Rules Compendium, page 49). You cannot drain away that racial hit die without all class levels being drained first, and your choices about the order of addition of those class levels then do not matter.

If not, then, when you restore, it does restore you to level X. Level X does not mean Class X/Y/Z.
Now, where do you see it restores a level? I don't.
It's in the dictionary definition of the term, which I quoted. You only restore ("bring back to a former, original, or normal condition") a former level. You do not gain a new level without regard to your original condition; you're only bringing back what was there previously. You've got to follow the rules, and understanding the meanings of the words used in those rules is essential.

[Little Brother]

Yes, of course I disagree. At character creation you first have 1 racial HD of Fey; there is no other possibility. Level loss at that point means the character is instantly slain. All class levels must come after that, and you must always lose the most recently acquired level (Rules Compendium, page 49). You cannot drain away that racial hit die without all class levels being drained first, and your choices about the order of addition of those class levels then do not matter.Nope. You gain all levels at character creation. Unless you're going to argue that the PC had level before it existed? :smallconfused:

It's in the dictionary definition of the term, which I quoted. You only restore ("bring back to a former, original, or normal condition") a former level. You do not gain a new level without regard to your original condition; you're only bringing back what was there previously. You've got to follow the rules, and understanding the meanings of the words used in those rules is essential.Dude! The NAME is restoration. It doesn't restore a level, it restores the EXPERIENCE. It is QUITE clear.

[Curmudgeon]

Nope. You gain all levels at character creation. Unless you're going to argue that the PC had level before it existed?
You don't create all HD simultaneously; that's not the way the game works. You follow the rules specified in CREATING PCS ABOVE 1ST LEVEL on page 199 of Dungeon Master's Guide. Every character starts with some number of hit dice based on their creature type, and these hit dice come before any class levels. 1 HD Humanoids can exchange that hit die for their first class level. Most Fey cannot.

Whether you start with a 1 HD character or a 6 HD character the build rules remain the same, and the order in which the various hit dice were gained is important.
It doesn't restore a level, it restores the EXPERIENCE. It is QUITE clear. The word level is quite explicit:
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. That's not merely the experience points, but the level associated with those points.
level

A measure of advancement or power applied to several areas of the game. See caster level, character level, class level, and spell level.

[ThiagoMartell]

Curmudgeon, would this mean the popular afflicted lycanthrope/level drain combo to get rid of hit dice does not work as well? I always thought it was RAW legal and even fluffed it in my setting (killing your inner beast), but never notices the phrasing in restoration. The lycanthrope would be forced to take animal levels again after restoration is used, correct?

[Curmudgeon]

Actually it's worse than that.
Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice. If you don't have all of those Animal hit dice you're not a Lycanthrope. You get no benefit for having just some of them. So it's actually a near-complete loss of the acquired template abilities (excepting BAB, HP, saves, and skills) until you regain the full minimum required number of Animal HD for your affliction.

[Little Brother]

You don't create all HD simultaneously; that's not the way the game works. You follow the rules specified in CREATING PCS ABOVE 1ST LEVEL on page 199 of Dungeon Master's Guide. Every character starts with some number of hit dice based on their creature type, and these hit dice come before any class levels. 1 HD Humanoids can exchange that hit die for their first class level. Most Fey cannot.So you're arguing that this character existed pre-character creation?

Whether you start with a 1 HD character or a 6 HD character the build rules remain the same, and the order in which the various hit dice were gained is important. The word level is quite explicit: That's not merely the experience points, but the level associated with those points.It says EXPERIENCE. You regain the level's worth of EXPERIENCE. It specifies the XP, not the level. So try again. You're reading to much into a dictionary, and not actually reading the spell.

[Spuddles]

Bard 8 using Glibness and Improvisation has a very reasonable chance to be able to lie to Great Wyrms.

[Curmudgeon]

So you're arguing that this character existed pre-character creation?
I'm stating exactly what's in the rules: the character necessarily exists as a 1 HD creature before any class levels can be added.

It says EXPERIENCE. You regain the level's worth of EXPERIENCE. It specifies the XP, not the level. So try again.
The Restoration spell says "restores one experience level", not "grants one level's worth of XP", no matter how many times you insist otherwise. All of those words have meaning, and disregarding some of them is intellectually dishonest.

Your argument has disregarded the rules citations I've provided, and not changed in two posts. If you're not going to address the rules you're clearly relying on your DM playing with various house rules to your liking rather than the RAW, and I don't see that there's any merit in continuing this exchange.

[animewatcha]

Eberron Campaign Setting. It's in the artificer rundown.
Edit: Might be an infusion, it's been a while.

Found the spell. It's an infusion. Is there a way to have the infusion be permanent on the item? Normal duration is 10 min a level.

[Little Brother]

I'm stating exactly what's in the rules: the character necessarily exists as a 1 HD creature before any class levels can be added.Nope. Try again. Simultaneous, you know.

The Restoration spell says "restores one experience level", not "grants one level's worth of XP", no matter how many times you insist otherwise. All of those words have meaning, and disregarding some of them is intellectually dishonest.The above one, you have grounds on. This one is absurd. It specifies the EXPERIENCE level. NOT the level. HUGE difference. Do you care to try again?

Your argument has disregarded the rules citations I've provided, and not changed in two posts. If you're not going to address the rules you're clearly relying on your DM playing with various house rules to your liking rather than the RAW, and I don't see that there's any merit in continuing this exchange.No u.

Seriously. I don't use things like this in my games. The level drain is dirty and somewhat shaky, I admit, but the restoration part does, without a doubt, work, no matter how much you hate to be wrong. Seriously, it says it restores the experience level, not the class level. Try again.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Your argument has disregarded the rules citations I've provided, and not changed in two posts. If you're not going to address the rules you're clearly relying on your DM playing with various house rules to your liking rather than the RAW, and I don't see that there's any merit in continuing this exchange.


No u.

Seriously. I don't use things like this in my games. The level drain is dirty and somewhat shaky, I admit, but the restoration part does, without a doubt, work, no matter how much you hate to be wrong. Seriously, it says it restores the experience level, not the class level. Try again.

You know what you two should do about this dispute?

Take it to the Q&A RAW thre--waaaaaaaaaaaiit a minute...

[jaybird]

Bard 8 using Glibness and Improvisation has a very reasonable chance to be able to lie to Great Wyrms.

Yeah, but pumping bluff isn't challenging :smalltongue: Glibness alone will get you halfway there...

[Tyndmyr]

I suppose, but isn't hitting DC 120 pre-epic the sort of thing which needs near-infinite loops, or an entire build dedicated to it?


EDIT: By "not easy" I mean either diverting significant resources from a character's core competencies, or doing things which reasonable GMs generally do not allow (like item familiars, Ice Assassins, personal demiplanes, etc).

I find it remarkable that, on a forum where people routinely decry Truenamers has hopelessly broken for having DC 55 checks at level 20, folks also chat about how easy a DC 120 check is pre-epic. The mind boggles.

[Little Brother]

I find it remarkable that, on a forum where people routinely decry Truenamers has hopelessly broken for having DC 55 checks at level 20, folks also chat about how easy a DC 120 check is pre-epic. The mind boggles.Couple things: One, most of the methods require spells, other specific support, or both, plus multiclassing. Truenamers get neither, and multiclassing screws them over. Plus, the Law of Resistance can bone them REALLY fast. They are even more dependent on the gods of WBL and the Great Twenty-Faced Ones than melee, which is REALLY saying something.

And everyone knows truenamers go from garbage at level 19 to busted beyond belief at level 20.

Now, if someone could figure out how to get whatchacallit Portal early, Truenamers would be way better.

[Kazyan]

I'll cut this off right here: The Truenamer is one of the most player-dependent and DM-variable classes ever, so the sides of any Truenamer discussion will come from different play experiences. Now, moving on.

Little Brother, you mentioned being able to tweak that buffstacking to allow hitting 120 on any skill check. Can you show us how--for op-research?

[Tyndmyr]

Any op-level at which a DC 120 skill check is "easy" means that a DC 55 check is trivial.

Incidentally, IIRC, a truenamer can provide a +5 untyped bonus to any skill, so that's of some value for ludicrous buffstacking.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You know what you two should do about this dispute?

Take it to the Q&A RAW thre--waaaaaaaaaaaiit a minute...

THIS.

So many times this.

[Little Brother]

I'll cut this off right here: The Truenamer is one of the most player-dependent and DM-variable classes ever, so the sides of any Truenamer discussion will come from different play experiences. Now, moving on.

Little Brother, you mentioned being able to tweak that buffstacking to allow hitting 120 on any skill check. Can you show us how--for op-research?The Ur-Theurge, just the same. Replace Grace and Divine Agility with Visage of the Deity, or whatever, and a Snake familiar.

[Slipperychicken]

I find it remarkable that, on a forum where people routinely decry Truenamers has hopelessly broken for having DC 55 checks at level 20, folks also chat about how easy a DC 120 check is pre-epic. The mind boggles.

To be fair, "skill-boosting is easy" is also a widespread meme. Doublethink has been around for ages. It is somewhat frightening, though :smalleek:

[demigodus]

I find it remarkable that, on a forum where people routinely decry Truenamers has hopelessly broken for having DC 55 checks at level 20, folks also chat about how easy a DC 120 check is pre-epic. The mind boggles.

I think this might be a case of there being two separate groups that are vocal at different times.

That, and apparently the skill boosting here uses levels of TO that the people pulling it off wouldn't use in actual games. Comparatively Truenamers need that level of optimization (so a difference of "can be done" vs "need to do"). But yes, mostly the two separate groups issue. Once you are hitting DC 120 pre-epic, you are going to be making ALL your truenaming checks unless you come across a god...