[PF] Kicking Tarrasque ass

[deuxhero]

Killing big T (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/tarrasque) is supposed to be harder to beat in Pathfinder (note the "supposed to" and "Pathfinder"), with actual immunities that shut down the core tricks to kill him that don't involve summoning/calling I can think of (He also somehow has lower saves...) but it still can't hit anyone with flight even with its acrobatics check (at best it can jump 25 up and use its 60 foot reach tail, and that assume it gets a 20 and uses its rush ability)

I know there are some gaps in his immunities (Flesh to Stone springs to mind, but without particular effort to boost the DC, it fails outside of a 1) , but what are the best, non-cheese ways to exploit them?

[grarrrg]

but it still can't hit anyone with flight even with its acrobatics check (at best it can jump 25 up and use its 60 foot reach tail, and that assume it gets a 20 and uses its rush ability)

It has Spines as a Ranged attack now. 120ft. Range Increment. It doesn't need to jump.

Ranged 6 spines +25 (2d10+15/×3)



I know there are some gaps in his immunities (Flesh to Stone springs to mind,

Isn't that covered by "Immune Petrification"?

[deuxhero]

Missed that.

There is still the fact that magical beasts need to breath I guess.

edit:Wait... does the thing not have any way to harm incorporeal creatures? Its weapons don't even appear to be magic (they can bypass epic DR though).I guess that is one way. Can't seem to find any non-intelligent incorporeal creatures though.

[doko239]

Step 1: cast Create Lesser Demiplane, make it permanent.

Step 2: relatively nearby the Tarrasque, cast Gate to your demiplane.

Step 3: Lure Tarrasque thru the gate (I suggest "Neener Neener"). The Gate has a maximum diameter of 20', so you'll have to piss it off enough to make it squeeze itself through.

Step 4: Close gate, plane shift back to prime material. Tarrasque is now imprisoned in an inescapable featureless void. :smallcool:

Edit: had another idea: be a level 20 Void-touched or Starsoul Sorcerer, boost your SR Penetration as high as you can, and use Breach the Gulf on it. (Lv20 Elf Sorcerer with Greater Spell Penetration and a Robe of Arcane Heritage would (I believe) have a +33 vs SR with Breach the Gulf; 34 Cha would put the Will save at 35, making it impossible for Big T to ever make it back)

[Little Brother]

Big T is a pathetic boss. Great mook, IMO, but terrible boss. Alips instakill it. Plane Shift it to the Positive Energy Plane. There, it's stuck. It cannot get out and will be exploding every couple of rounds. Flight instakills it. Burying instakills it.

Hell, I could kill the Big T with a single Lesser Planar Binding.

[grarrrg]

...Flight instakills it...

Flight is no longer an instakill.
Tarrasque has SPINES now people! A Ranged attack!! 120ft. Increment!!!1

Yes, still relatively easy to overcome, but Flight is no longer the be-all end-all of Tarrasque fighting.

[doko239]

Waaaaait a second... going back to my previous post for a minute, would Breach the Gulf be considered a Supernatural or Spell-Like ability?

If it's Supernatural, then SR doesn't apply, meaning all you have to do is get that Will DC high enough and big T is oneshotted.

[grarrrg]

Waaaaait a second... going back to my previous post for a minute, would Breach the Gulf be considered a Supernatural or Spell-Like ability?

If it's Supernatural, then SR doesn't apply, meaning all you have to do is get that Will DC high enough and big T is oneshotted.

Spell-Like, no easy button this way.

[Venusaur]

Fighter 20 vs. PF tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130509)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Fighter 20 vs. PF tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130509)

That was...pathetic... How the hell does a level 20 archer
a) not have a good enough spot to notice a freaking tarrasque?
b) not have a ring of freedom of movement?

*sigh*

And you're supposed to do more than one mock battle specifically to mitigate the whole "lucky 20" skewing the results.

[Blisstake]

Big T is a pathetic boss. Great mook, IMO, but terrible boss. Alips instakill it. Plane Shift it to the Positive Energy Plane. There, it's stuck. It cannot get out and will be exploding every couple of rounds. Flight instakills it. Burying instakills it.

Hell, I could kill the Big T with a single Lesser Planar Binding.

How on earth is an Allip going to kill it when it has immunity to ability damage?

Also, someone said Flesh to Stone, but it's explicitly immune to petrification as well...

If you're not prepared, the Frightful Presense can also get you. Still not the most threatening monster out there, but it could be problematic if you aren't expecting it (which isn't terribly likely, I imagine...)

[Little Brother]

How on earth is an Allip going to kill it when it has immunity to ability damage?They do wis Drain. Big T ain't immune to it.

[Blisstake]

That requires them to get a critical hit (<5% chance), and for him to fail a will save which he has a 90% chance of making. So even if you decide to take "Ability Damage" immunity to not mean immunity to Ability Drain (which is a subset of Ability Damage in the PF CRB), it would take an average of 3,000 attacks in before they can kill the Tarrasque.

[Little Brother]

That requires them to get a critical hit (<5% chance), and for him to fail a will save which he has a 90% chance of making. So even if you decide to take "Ability Damage" immunity to not mean immunity to Ability Drain (which is a subset of Ability Damage in the PF CRB), it would take an average of 3,000 attacks in before they can kill the Tarrasque.Uh, no. First off, they are totally separate abilities, so yes, Big T is not immune.

Where are you getting that number from? Big T has touch AC 5. Allips have a +3 attack bonus, and the touch attack requires no save. They make 90% of their attacks, for an average of 2.5 wis drain, meaning 7 attacks to be reasonably certain. 7 attacks from a creature faster than the Tarrasque, and can't be hit by it.

[Blisstake]

Uh, no. First off, they are totally separate abilities, so yes, Big T is not immune.

Where are you getting that number from? Big T has touch AC 5. Allips have a +3 attack bonus, and the touch attack requires no save. They make 90% of their attacks, for an average of 2.5 wis drain, meaning 7 attacks to be reasonably certain. 7 attacks from a creature faster than the Tarrasque, and can't be hit by it.

I see the problem. You're using 3.5 rules. This is tagged under Pathfinder, where all my statements above are correct.

In PF, they only do drain on a critical, and there's a save involved. Furthmore, Ability Drain and Damage are under the same category, most likely rendering the Tarrasque immune.

[Little Brother]

I see the problem. You're using 3.5 rules. This is tagged under Pathfinder, where all my statements above are correct.

In PF, they only do drain on a critical, and there's a save involved. Furthmore, Ability Drain and Damage are under the same category, most likely rendering the Tarrasque immune.Oh. Woops. Sorry 'bout that :smallredface:

I'm still pretty sure Drain=!Damage
Still, there are it takes an allip 3000 attacks to kill the Big T? That's five hours of nonstop attacks. I see no reason an allip couldn't do that. Summon/make/rebuke a couple more, and it just gets easier.

[Crasical]

A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect


A successful critical hit causes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage and 1 point of Wisdom drain

Is the wisdom drain a secondary effect triggered due to the wisdom damage? If so, the Tarrasque is immune.

[Little Brother]

Is the wisdom drain a secondary effect triggered due to the wisdom damage? If so, the Tarrasque is immune.That I know isn't secondary. It's part of the same effect.

[Crasical]

That I know isn't secondary. It's part of the same effect.

I read it as the drain being a secondary effect of the damage. Either way, Ability Drain and Damage are paired together under the rules, Implying I think that one is just a variant of the other. I'm pretty sure the Tarrasque's Immunity covers both.. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Ability-Damage-and-Drain-Ex-or-Su-)

[Boci]

I read it as the drain being a secondary effect of the damage. Either way, Ability Drain and Damage are paired together under the rules, Implying I think that one is just a variant of the other. I'm pretty sure the Tarrasque's Immunity covers both.. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Ability-Damage-and-Drain-Ex-or-Su-)

The immunities are listed seperatly under what constructs and undead are immune to, so that's either bad editing or the big T wasn't meant to be immune to drain.

[CTrees]

I read it as the drain being a secondary effect of the damage. Either way, Ability Drain and Damage are paired together under the rules, Implying I think that one is just a variant of the other. I'm pretty sure the Tarrasque's Immunity covers both.. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Ability-Damage-and-Drain-Ex-or-Su-)

Better link. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Ability-Drain) Ability damage is classified separately from ability drain under the ability scores rules. Big T still dies eventually to allips.

[Eldariel]

That was...pathetic... How the hell does a level 20 archer
a) not have a good enough spot to notice a freaking tarrasque?
b) not have a ring of freedom of movement?

A) Because Fighters don't generally have very good Spot due to it being cross-class and Wisdom being a low-impact stat. The rules stated it's a Fighter 20, not because Fighter 20 is good but specifically because this was a gimped fight to seek just how weak the Big T was.
B) Because WBL. Really, the Archer Fighter was built for any kind of an open area; taking hits beyond AC wasn't factored in 'cause it was deemed unnecessary. The DM ran a dungeon terrain to maximize Big T's chances, which worked out in that one fight. It would've been possible to cram the utility items but I didn't really bother with that build due to the gameplan (which flew out of the window with the crit).


*sigh*

And you're supposed to do more than one mock battle specifically to mitigate the whole "lucky 20" skewing the results.

There was no interest. The numbers are visible to everybody; you can tell the Fighters are, by and large, going to win almost every time. Even the first fight was won by Big T due to lucky critical on a single hit combined with its critical.

It's a lot of trouble to build level 20 characters and run battles for the hell of it; 3 battles were ran, that's more than enough. You're free to run however many you desire.

[whibla]

Oh. Woops. Sorry 'bout that :smallredface:

I'm still pretty sure Drain=!Damage
Still, there are it takes an allip 3000 attacks to kill the Big T? That's five hours of nonstop attacks. I see no reason an allip couldn't do that. Summon/make/rebuke a couple more, and it just gets easier.

I'm not picking on you...honest :P

...but I've seen this Allip argument used in a few places, and it's has more holes than a lot of the cheese I've seen on these forums.

1. The MM lists Ability Score Loss as the attack form, with the distinction bewteen drain and damage based purely on how you recover from that loss. Immune to one, immune to all...

2. The rules for Commanding undead state: "A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric..."

3. The entry for Madness(Su) under Allip reads: "Anyone targeting an Allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with a tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage."

Show me an evil cleric commanding an Allip, and chances are I'll show you an unconcious idiot...

EDIT: To actually answer the question...and while I suspect it wouldn't work, the idea does amuse me a little:
Resist Energy: Acid.
Polymorph to something small and winged -> fly into it's mouth and get swallowed.
Reduced area Forcecage around yourself.
Blast away with all the high damage spells you like. The carapace shouldn't reflect these attacks, but even if it does, it's pretty much reflecting them back into itself. You're not trying to cut your way out, no weapon involved, so in theory at least you're in no danger of falling out either.
Wait til he stops thrashing...
Cast wish.

[Eldariel]

...but I've seen this Allip argument used in a few places, and it's has more holes than a lot of the cheese I've seen on these forums.

1. The MM lists Ability Score Loss as the attack form, with the distinction bewteen drain and damage based purely on how you recover from that loss. Immune to one, immune to all...

MM lists Ability Damage and Ability Drain separately though. More importantly, you need far stronger magic to recover from Ability Drain, and there are plenty of things with listed Ability Drain immunity; Constructs, Undead, Nonabilities for instance. If Tarrasque doesn't have Immunity to Ability Drain, it doesn't have Immunity to Ability Drain.

It doesn't have Immunity to Ability Score Loss either. It solely and specifically only has Immunity to Ability Damage, because the entry says so. Argument "He should be immune to Ability Drain because I think so." has no value. We're fighting Big T as listed in either MM or PF MM; not a hypothetical homebrewed Tarrasque and vulnerability to Ability Drain is a significant characteristic for both.


2. The rules for Commanding undead state: "A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric..."

3. The entry for Madness(Su) under Allip reads: "Anyone targeting an Allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with a tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage."

You take 1d4 Wis damage. Whopdedoo. It's not repeated. It's not the end of the world either; it's a small amount of relatively easy to recover damage ('cause, Lesser Restoration cures Ability Damage). You can be a Wizard and pull this off; Scry, Teleport, Command Undead.

[CTrees]

I'm not picking on you...honest :P

...but I've seen this Allip argument used in a few places, and it's has more holes than a lot of the cheese I've seen on these forums.

1. The MM lists Ability Score Loss as the attack form, with the distinction bewteen drain and damage based purely on how you recover from that loss. Immune to one, immune to all...

MM is 3.5 rules, we're talking PF, thus the PF tag and the links to PF rules.


2. The rules for Commanding undead state: "A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric..."

Command Undead (both spell and feat) and Control Undead are all vocal commands in PF, not mental.


3. The entry for Madness(Su) under Allip reads: "Anyone targeting an Allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with a tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage."

Irrelevant, per 2.

[Chained Birds]

Does Wishing away the Regeneration even work on PF Big T anymore?


Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

So would that mean the guy if pretty much immortal even if you deal 2000+ damage to him and reduce him into nothing but ash. So only some form of constant damage must be administered to him to keep him knocked out and never becoming active. Hmm, but also Gating him to another plane would also work seeing as he can't Planeshift/Gate back.

Edit: Also, immunity to Acid and Fire makes his Regeneration (if it was weak against Acid or Fire) pretty much unbeatable as Eternal Acid Traps or Porting him to the Plane of Fire would just make him confused for a second.

[whibla]

MM is 3.5 rules, we're talking PF, thus the PF tag and the links to PF rules...Command Undead (both spell and feat) and Control Undead are all vocal commands in PF, not mental.

My apologies, I was talking as much in the general as the specific, and I'm more au fait with the 3-3.5 rules than the PF ones. In either case, having re-read the section on Special Attacks, Subtypes, and so on I do find myself having to agree with the other posters regarding there being a difference between ability damage and ability drain. It is there in black and white as they say.

In a similar vein though, could someone point me in the direction of the supplement, and preferably the specific spell that allows clerics and or necromancers to create or summon Allips seemingly at will? I'm not as familiar with all the esoteric supplements that are available as I am with the more 'core' rules.
Just as a last point regarding Allips, I read a section on Damage Reduction that says *snip*[I]epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.[I]*snip* which would seem to suggest that BigT will have little to no trouble actually hitting and damaging an incorporeal creature, without a very rigid and restrictive interpretation of "The Tarrasque's natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction." I would suggest that it was written like this simply to avoid giving him an additional +6 to hit and damage, rather than to suggest that his claws and bite do not actually count as magic weapons.

On reading the original post did find myself wondering how a tarrasque, as written with no mods, swapped out feats, or applied subtypes would ever defeat even the simplest of builds. Even a relatively straightforward ranger/scout build, (you can add some cheese in here by making the character a centaur, or other creature with faster than normal movement, and more cheese by taking a level of barbarian as his increased move appears to be untyped - unless that's been fixed in PF) with point blank shot, precise shot (not strictly needed), rapid shot, manyshot, greater manyshot (this feat is pure cheese tbh, so feel free to ignore it. It's not essential to have in order to damage BigT, it merely speeds up the fight a little), dodge, mobility, shot on the run, and the feat that allows the two class levels to stack with regards skirmish damage and favoured enemies would seem to fit the bill. Assuming you've got an epic weapon you only need to do 41 points of damage a round to be able to eventually wear him down, and even if you don't you're still only looking at 56. Far from insurmountable with a +5 or better weapon, a reasonable strength score, and a bow with an extra dice or two of elemental (not fire obv.) or similar damage. I fail to see how the tarrasque can even get near the character, even assuming he's not hasted further. The scout means he's certainly not going to be slowed down by anything short of an obstacle that requires climbing, and if you've run yourself into a box canyon, well...The spikes would seem slightly more problematic, especially with the range increment, but BigT doesn't appear to have blindsight, so these can be largely mitigated by something as simple as Greater Invis.

I'm sure I'm missing something, probably something very obvious, but, not having given it a huge amount of thought, it currently escapes me (short of grossly underestimating how much damage the spikes will do over the course of the combat - which granted will be quite long).

[deuxhero]

Imprisonment works on the big-t (un)surprisingly, but it is a touch attack... Quicken (rod) teleport+Greater Reach Rod Imprisonment could work.

[olentu]

Eh just magic jar it. I think that still works fine.

[deuxhero]

Huh, it doesn't have the [mind-effecting] tag. I assumed an effect that well... transfers minds, you be such.

Wonder if killing its soul bypasses regeneration, being physical and all.

Aside from having big T's body for hour/CL (doubled with a rod), how does that help to kill it without committing suicide (effectivly)?

[doko239]

Huh, it doesn't have the [mind-effecting] tag. I assumed an effect that well... transfers minds, you be such.

Wonder if killing its soul bypasses regeneration, being physical and all.

Aside from having big T's body for hour/CL (doubled with a rod), how does that help to kill it without committing suicide (effectivly)?

According to a literal interpretation of the rules, so long as you are within range of your own body but not within range of the Jar, and the Jar is then shattered, you will return to your own body, but the Tarrasque will die.

[deuxhero]

So Magic Jar, have your allies feed you some strength/dex poison (or bind you, give Big-t has no escape artist ranks and your dex isn't that good, but coma body is safer), have someone take your gem to to within range of big-T, possess him, return to your body leaving the gem then smash the gem?

Sounds like a plan, but you have a 1-20 chance of failing.

[Boci]

In a similar vein though, could someone point me in the direction of the supplement, and preferably the specific spell that allows clerics and or necromancers to create or summon Allips seemingly at will? I'm not as familiar with all the esoteric supplements that are available as I am with the more 'core' rules.

Summon undead line from heroes of horror. The 4th level version summons an allip.


Just as a last point regarding Allips, I read a section on Damage Reduction that says *snip*[I]epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.[I]*snip* which would seem to suggest that BigT will have little to no trouble actually hitting and damaging an incorporeal creature, without a very rigid and restrictive interpretation of "The Tarrasque's natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction." I would suggest that it was written like this simply to avoid giving him an additional +6 to hit and damage, rather than to suggest that his claws and bite do not actually count as magic weapons.

Reasonable assumption, but as written its not how it works.

[Rubik]

magical beasts need to breathThat ain't a verb.

[deuxhero]

Fine, "breathe".

[Blisstake]

Summon undead line from heroes of horror. The 4th level version summons an allip.

Again, this is a Pathfinder thread. Such a spell does not exist.

[TuggyNE]

Just as a last point regarding Allips, I read a section on Damage Reduction that says *snip*[I]epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.[I]*snip* which would seem to suggest that BigT will have little to no trouble actually hitting and damaging an incorporeal creature, without a very rigid and restrictive interpretation of "The Tarrasque's natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction." I would suggest that it was written like this simply to avoid giving him an additional +6 to hit and damage, rather than to suggest that his claws and bite do not actually count as magic weapons.

As far as I know, there's no particular reason to assume that incorporeal creatures can be attacked by the tarrasque, or mephits, or any other creature that bypasses magic or epic DR with its natural weapons. It's quite clear in all cases that it only counts for DR, and incorporeal miss chances aren't DR in any way.

A +1 weapon actually has at least five effects:

Masterwork (prerequisite): +1 enhancement bonus to attack
+1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage (does not stack with masterwork)
Hardness and HP increased by +2 and +10 respectively
Able to bypass DR/magic
Able to hit incorporeal creatures with a 50% miss chance

The only one monster entries call out for natural weapons is the DR penetration, and it is invariably on monsters that have DR/magic or DR/epic themselves. Several of the listed features of magic weapons wouldn't make sense, or would be outright wrong for natural weapons. However, if you expand from what's actually stated to include incorporeal, how do you justify not also expanding to include enhancement bonus and so on?

[Boci]

Again, this is a Pathfinder thread. Such a spell does not exist.

whibla wasn't asking about PF.

[CTrees]

Again, this is a Pathfinder thread. Such a spell does not exist.

In PF, I always assumed one just went looking for allips. There are more than enough ways to gather information through scrying or skills. It's like getting a slaymate-you go looking, or you rely on fiat, but it's not impossible,

[Blisstake]

In PF, I always assumed one just went looking for allips. There are more than enough ways to gather information through scrying or skills. It's like getting a slaymate-you go looking, or you rely on fiat, but it's not impossible,

I didn't say it was impossible. I just said you can't summon them in PF.

[whibla]

As far as I know, there's no particular reason to assume that incorporeal creatures can be attacked by the tarrasque, or mephits, or any other creature that bypasses magic or epic DR with its natural weapons. It's quite clear in all cases that it only counts for DR, and incorporeal miss chances aren't DR in any way.

There's no particular reason the they cannot, other than an, as I've called it before, overly-rigid interpretation of what the rules mean. I will agree that incorporeal miss chances, the flat 50% chance that any attack will simply not hit them, are not DR, but the issue of magic (spells or weapons) being required to hit them is something seperate.


A +1 weapon actually has at least five effects:

Masterwork (prerequisite): +1 enhancement bonus to attack
+1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage (does not stack with masterwork)
Hardness and HP increased by +2 and +10 respectively
Able to bypass DR/magic
Able to hit incorporeal creatures with a 50% miss chance

The only one monster entries call out for natural weapons is the DR penetration, and it is invariably on monsters that have DR/magic or DR/epic themselves. Several of the listed features of magic weapons wouldn't make sense, or would be outright wrong for natural weapons. However, if you expand from what's actually stated to include incorporeal, how do you justify not also expanding to include enhancement bonus and so on?

There is actually precedence for 'magic' weapons that do not grant bonuses to either hit or damage, both as specific magic items, and also as spells, for example "Bless Weapon: ...The weapon is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of by passing the damage reduction of evil creatures or striking evil incorporeal creatures (though the spell doesn't grant an actual enhancement bonus.)"

One way of looking at it (and yes, I know it doesn't say this explicitly within the rules) is to think of incorporeal creatures as having DR: infinite/magic. Without a magic weapon is is simply impossible to hit them, as your attacks pass straight through, without affecting their 'essence'. Again, there is precedence for this kind of interpretation, such as a Golem's infinte spell resistance: if the spell allows for spell resistance, it is unable to affect the golem.

Just as a final comment on the subject, the section on Incorporeal says: "Such creatures are insubstantial and can't be touched by nonmagical matter or energy" and the Tarrasque has a Subtype "Magical Beast", quite apart from the section saying his weapons count as epic (defined a +6 or better magical)...yeah yeah, for the purposes of ...etc.

At the end of the day it is simply an interpretation of what the rules, as written, means. The power-gamer's prevailing sentiment seems to be the BigT can't hit incorporeal creatures, because it gives them a huge (some might say encounter breaking) advantage, mine is 'little' more liberal, but at least I can back it up with some logical arguments, rather than resort to "That's not what it says in the rules!"

[Boci]

One way of looking at it (and yes, I know it doesn't say this explicitly within the rules) is to think of incorporeal creatures as having DR: infinite/magic.

That would work differently though, as it would allow creature with the ability to ignore damage reduction to hit incorporeal creatures without magical weapons.


At the end of the day it is simply an interpretation of what the rules, as written, means.

No it doesn't. It comes down to whether the rules need to be changed or not.

[TuggyNE]

I did want to avoid cluttering this thread, but oh well.... :smallsigh:


There is actually precedence for 'magic' weapons that do not grant bonuses to either hit or damage, both as specific magic items, and also as spells, for example "Bless Weapon: ...The weapon is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of by passing the damage reduction of evil creatures or striking evil incorporeal creatures (though the spell doesn't grant an actual enhancement bonus.)"

That's really an awesome example of how those are considered separate, thanks. The spell has to specifically grant both of those effects for it to work.


One way of looking at it (and yes, I know it doesn't say this explicitly within the rules) is to think of incorporeal creatures as having DR: infinite/magic. Without a magic weapon is is simply impossible to hit them, as your attacks pass straight through, without affecting their 'essence'. Again, there is precedence for this kind of interpretation, such as a Golem's infinte spell resistance: if the spell allows for spell resistance, it is unable to affect the golem.

That's an interesting idea, but "hitting and doing no damage due to DR" is rather different from "unable to hit"; incorporeality describes the latter effect. So a 100% (Su) miss chance would be a more accurate representation, if you had to convert it to some other game mechanic. Infinite DR just ... doesn't model it properly with the existing rules. (If you wanted to houserule a conversion to infinite DR, that would be fine, but it would definitely be a houserule, and there might be some odd consequences.)


Just as a final comment on the subject, the section on Incorporeal says: "Such creatures are insubstantial and can't be touched by nonmagical matter or energy" and the Tarrasque has a Subtype "Magical Beast", quite apart from the section saying his weapons count as epic (defined a +6 or better magical)...yeah yeah, for the purposes of ...etc.

Essentially irrelevant; can a basilisk, a giant eagle, a darkmantle, a kraken, an owlbear all hit incorporeal creatures? (Yes, those are all Magical Beasts. None of them have DR/magic, and none of them are able to bypass DR/magic with their natural weapon attacks.) Now how about a CR 3 Salt Mephit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mephit#saltMephit)? Or compare two Monstrous Humanoids: gargoyles (which can penetrate DR/magic) vs medusas (which can't). Which of these is "more magical"?
The simplest answer is that only a weapon with a magical aura (of certain types) on it can hit incorporeal creatures, in general.


At the end of the day it is simply an interpretation of what the rules, as written, means. The power-gamer's prevailing sentiment seems to be the BigT can't hit incorporeal creatures, because it gives them a huge (some might say encounter breaking) advantage, mine is 'little' more liberal, but at least I can back it up with some logical arguments, rather than resort to "That's not what it says in the rules!"

Honestly? I don't really care whether Big T can or cannot hit X creature; it's weak enough it needs any boost it can get (as this thread and others have already made rather clear). But the rules are quite plain, in my opinion, nor do I see any particular reason to change them. Tough claws with the unusual ability to bypass certain types of thickened skin do not (in general) need to be able to hit ghosts. The tarrasque itself needs some means of affecting such things, of course; perhaps a breath weapon, as some myths of tarasques ascribe to them, would be appropriate.