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Lord Il Palazzo
2012-06-08, 01:04 AM
I'm a fairly new DM for a fairly new 3.5 group and I'm having trouble with one of my players (whom I'll call Barry.) When we were all new to the game last year, Barry's first character was a barbarian who was more or less chaos in dwarf form and it worked well. The campaign was very sandbox-y and there was a lot of room for that kind of thing.

Fast forward to a new, more story-driven campaign with me DMing. Barry is running a new character with an entirely different background and I don't think a session goes by without him sighing and saying how much he misses the barbarian. He likes combat, but you can virtually see the player's eyes glaze over when there isn't a fight either happening or about to happen. Barry has taken to playing recklessly (he won't wait for the rogue to check for traps, he kills a disabled enemy NPC everyone else wanted to interrogate "To see what would happen", etc.)

I've tried throwing out hints and hooks that lead to quests involving Barry's character's back story in the hope that it will interest him more, but a lot of it is tied to a single NPC who the Barry has decided he doesn't like (to be fair, the NPC is supposed to be gruff and unfriendly), so the NPC gets abused and leads on the character's plot get ignored (again to be fair, there were other quests available at the time, but Barry still reacted to "I think I have some leads on that murder you want to solve and avenge" with more or less "OK. Good luck with that.")

What should I do? I know step one is "Talk to Barry" but I'm not sure how to go about it. Does anyone have any suggestions? Has anyone had to deal with a similar player or situation? I'd suggest a new character, but it's clear that the problem is deeper than that and Barry would probably just roll up Barbarian, Jr. and have the same problem all over again.

Yukitsu
2012-06-08, 01:16 AM
Obviously doesn't care about most anything in the game except disrupting it. Invite him to play dungeon crawly, pure combat games, but just leave him out of games that involve absolutely anything else at all. He knows what he likes, no point really in him playing a game that won't have it, and really, there'll be games where the DM doesn't want to have to worry about all that.

planswalker
2012-06-08, 01:52 AM
I feel that's a very unfair judgment coming from someone who doesn't know Barry at all, and it'd be rather a large assumption even if you were his friend.

What style of game are you running. "story-driven" is a category, not a genre.

It's clear that Barry isn't having fun right now in this game with this character.

another tack to take is seeing if everyone else is enjoying the story or if he's just the most vocal in his dissatisfaction. It changes how things should be handled drastically. If it's just him, talk with him about what he's finding boring. Perhaps he needs to play a character more suitable to his play style. If it's the group at large and he's just the squeakiest wheel, then perhaps its something at your end. Not your fault, per se, but new dms with new groups will try things from time to time, and not everything works for every group.

one last thought to keep up with is that the goal is to have fun. There's no one solution to the problem, so long as everyone has a way to have fun.

Lord Il Palazzo
2012-06-08, 10:43 AM
Yukitsu: That's a pretty unfair conclusion to jump to without ever having met anyone involved. Barry is not just out to disrupt the game. As best I can tell, he's trying for much more of a "kick down the door and take no prisoners" type of approach than the other players. I try to craft the scenarios so that that's an option that will work (among many others and probbably several I didn't predict) but he still seems to want to use it every single time. Also, it seems like most of the other players like to interact with the world when they play, while Barry is more interested in acting and seeing how the world reacts, if that makes sense.

Not inviting Barry is NOT an option. We're all friends outside the game and telling one of our friends not to come around when we're hanging out would be rude to Barry and very awkward for everyone else.

planswalker: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by category or genre. The game is centered in a major metropolis, but will have frequent chances to leave the city to go dungeon crawl or to hunt down bad guys who fled into the sewer or whatever. The city is being used as a hub for everything else that's going on, not as the primary scene of all the action (though some will be going down there).

It seems like all the other players are enjoying things well. They spend a good amount of time planning, preparing strategies, trying to guess what's coming next and so forth, so they're definitely engaged. It probably wouldn't hurt to send out a general email asking how each player things the game's going, if there's anything they'd like me to be doing more/better/differently and that kind of thing, just to see what I get.

Any other thoughts or opinions?

planswalker
2012-06-08, 11:02 AM
I realize I invented terms, but let me try to explain.

By category, I meant how and where you're focusing the storytelling element. Story-driven games have large, continuous arcs that drive the action. Sandbox game have action driven primarily by how the players choose to interact with the world. Serial games are a set of independent stories revolving around a cast of characters (the pc's). Dungeon crawls are plot excuses to go tramping around in classic dungeons and kill stuff for loot. It describes how the pacing and plot happen, but not really the setting, motif, or characters. They also don't have to be mutually exclusive if you're good at tying various elements together.

By genre, I mean things like slasher stories, whodunnit mysteries, "save the world" good vs evil epics, social intrigues, and wartime stories. It doesn't describe how the pacing or plot happens, but describes what that plot is, what sort of setting you use, the nature of the pc's, and so forth. Again, although stories can be rather distinctively one genre, they can be blended together.

Does that make sense?

If everyone else seems to be having fun, I'd recommend looking to see if he's just dissatisfied with his new pc. It might be that he just isn't enjoying the type of character he's playing and doesn't realize that's what it is. The other most common reason I've come across is that he's feeling constrained and forced to do things he isn't enjoying in the story, feeling like he doesn't really have options. The term "dm railroading" is a term often thrown about to describe this. The term isn't necessarily true and is used a lot more often than it actually happens, but if you can talk with him about what kinds of things he'd like to be doing, you probably can find a way to include what he wants to do as well as what everyone else is enjoying.


The simplest and most common thing in my experience is that the player just simply feels like his new character isn't as fun as his old one. Especially if the first one he's done was really cool in his mind. It might be that he'd enjoy a clone of his old one, a variation on that theme, or perhaps just something else that isn't what he currently has. If your setting just simply isn't conducive to the style of character he wants, you could try shifting the genre a little to include some elements of what he would enjoy.

Yukitsu
2012-06-08, 04:59 PM
Yukitsu: That's a pretty unfair conclusion to jump to without ever having met anyone involved. Barry is not just out to disrupt the game. As best I can tell, he's trying for much more of a "kick down the door and take no prisoners" type of approach than the other players.

I'll just caveat what I've said about "being disruptive" here by saying if what he's doing is against what everyone else wants done, he's being disruptive. I'm going to temper that by saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with being disruptive, unless the players, or in this case you, are bothered by it. And evidently you are to a degree bothered by it if you require advice on how to change it or address it.


I try to craft the scenarios so that that's an option that will work (among many others and probbably several I didn't predict) but he still seems to want to use it every single time. Also, it seems like most of the other players like to interact with the world when they play, while Barry is more interested in acting and seeing how the world reacts, if that makes sense.

Yes, that's a problem in difference of play styles. It's going to either require they all sort of understand that they need to do things their way as opposed to his way some of the time, but not all of the time. From what you have said though, he uses these actions without really consulting the rest of the group. Coming from a player's point of view, someone who is constantly doing things to see how the world reacts as it were, with no regard to how everyone else feels, can be fairly annoying. Especially if the rest of the group wanted to do something else, only to be vetoed by the one guy that just acts.


Not inviting Barry is NOT an option. We're all friends outside the game and telling one of our friends not to come around when we're hanging out would be rude to Barry and very awkward for everyone else.

How large is your gaming group? Mine is large enough that we often have 2 running simultaneously. If it's not, you'll have to separate your game into 2 types in your notes. Parts where you want to engage Barry, and the remainder being the main story line for everyone else. Write the notes for each section so that it engages and catches the attention of the correct people so he doesn't ruin the story for the other players, and the other players aren't holding him back when he wants to just run into things.

Basically, the problem is, they are playing different types of games here. They aren't mutually exclusive in the grand scheme of things, but in any individual encounter, you're going to find that he's either going to be interested in what's happening, he's going to make it interesting for himself (which is bad for the rest of the party from the sound of it) or he'll be bored.

This doesn't work well for the DM as advice, but if your players were to simply incorporate Barry as a sort of wrecking ball as part of their plans, that would be ideal, but I don't find a DM trying to get that to happen works, it only really happens when the players come up with that.

Madara
2012-06-08, 05:09 PM
Yep, talk to him

Even if it doesn't solve your problems, it'll give you some relief.

I had a player who only player dwarf fighters...every...single...game. There's nothing wrong with that except for the fact that he fell behind the rest of the party in terms of being able to do things. I tried several things, building everyone a pregen to introduce Eberron(My way of making people try something new), trying to change his fighter build to something besides a sword and board(He wasn't even changing his fighter's weapons/feats), but finally it came down to asking him.


It turns out character creation was boring for him, and he didn't like having too many options. After that, I realized it wasn't my responsibility as GM. So talk to him, for his sake and yours.

Vorr
2012-06-19, 12:48 PM
I'm a big fan of letting any player role-play however they want. And it's easy to make them non-disruptive. As the DM you can simply Alter Reality.

To take your example: Barry goes and kills Zed the informant that everyone wanted to question. Right of the top of my head: 1)Zed is a half troll and regenerates the damage 2)Zed has a one use 'life ring' 3)Zed is something like a wererat and is immune to Barry's weapons 4)Ted the informant is just behind the next tree 5)Zed dies, but his ghost pops up for a couple rounds and is more then willing to talk.


Barry also likes a more active game, as do many others. And it's easy enough to give it to them. Simply add more action. Avoid going too long with all talk and no action.

A great trick is to add just little bits of action, like: ''In the office you see a goblin chained to the wall holding a glowing red sword. The clerk tells you that is the goblin pass test, if you can knock out the goblin you can have a free city pass for 24 hours. As per an old tradition.''

Or

''The Stumble Inn is a nice well worn down inn. You do notice that the one hallway off from the common room is dark and dirty and looks unused. When you ask, your told of a ghost wolf that haunts that unused part of the inn."

The trick here is to add action, but not make it all out a full encounter. Not like a dragon's lair. So you don't want the players doing the 'lets take an hour of real time to optimize and cheat so we can defeat the ghost in two rounds'. So the 'ghost wolf' would not be a 'ghost' per say, just a lesser undead type.

Frenth Alunril
2012-06-19, 02:13 PM
I had someone like this, Barry, you speak of.

I had a solution that went like this: solo adventure!

The disruptive player wanted to see what would happen to him so he was always trying to kill my npcs. I got the idea to take him aside and offer him a gambit. He could go hog wild with his ambition, blood thirsty and nuts. He went and disrupted an opera, disgraced a noble woman, challenged her suitor to a duel. Lost it on rolls, but lived. Later hunted the two down in their town house, violently murdered them and made a run for it. Jumped over the wrong wall, failed some swim checks, gave him every chance.

I rescued him for execution. The whole party got to watch as he was tried hastily and put on the block.

He loved every minute of it. He learned the world was open to his own desires, and he could do anything. Then I handed him a cleric to play. That was part of the deal. He became a great player.

Talk with Barry, who knows.

INDYSTAR188
2012-06-19, 03:17 PM
I am DMing a group and one of my players told me that player x wasn't having a lot of fun and was thinking about quitting. So, not wanting to make it awkward for anyone I talked to player x on the side. I asked him how the game was going, what he liked/disliked, and how he enjoyed his character. He told me he felt like they didn't get enough accomplished in game, that he wasn't very happy with his power/feat selections, and that he was having a hard time getting into the story.

Basically what I did was:
- I told him I would start game an hour early, so we could get all the general horse play, pre-game conversations out of the way.
- I allowed him a one time character rebuild. I don't let players retool their characters normally but in this instance I made an exception.
- Since he's a paladin I worked his deity and mechanics into the story and encounters to allow him a chance to shine a bit more often (and also encouraging him to be proactive instead of reactive).

jackattack
2012-06-19, 05:39 PM
Maybe the player just wants/needs to be more directly involved/engaged in each scene. I'm going to assume that he is a fighter for illustrative purposes.

When the rogue wants to check for traps, make sure there is a door or sliding stone that needs to be held open. When there is palace intrigue, provide a(n extra) foil for him to interact with. If he has cooking skill, then have him take over the kitchen of the inn so the innkeeper can/will talk to the party.

Give him opportunities to succeed at something other than kicking in doors and killing things, and he might be more involved. It's more work for you, but as he discovers that there are fun/productive things to do out of combat, he might suggest his own actions -- hopefully less disruptive to your overall plot.

Kaun
2012-06-19, 07:49 PM
I have had a player similar to this and the trick is generally to get them invested in the character, because if they don't care about the character then they aren't going to apply much thought to what it does.

Firstly figure out if Barry likes the character at all, because if he doesn't then letting him roll a new character might be a good idea. Getting a player invested in a character they don't like is a lot of work so don't do it if you don't have to.

From there try to figure out what Barry the player likes and use that;

So far you have said he likes kick in the door style action but he hasn't been responding well to plots based off his back story.

What i would do here is start using fame and gear as motivation.

Firstly if his kick in the door style antics are successful have the word get out.

Have a tavern keeper make comment about that fight with the kabolds the other week and shout him a free drink.

Have a couple of street toughs go to threaten him only to be dragged away by a friend because .. "guys are you morons!!! that's Barry... lets get out of here."

Don't do anything that requires his interaction because that can be detrimental to the process but if he interacts of his own accord the let him go with it.

Its amazing what a bit of character renown can do for players of Barry's type for character investment.

Now if this starts to work you can use followers to really build on this;

Have some of the younger lads in the local area start coming up to him during down time wanting to train under Barry. See how he takes to this cautiously but if it catches his interest these young fighters he is training can later become useful plot hooks because they are npc's he has invested in himself.

Now using gear to get players like Barry invested in a plot hook has worked wonders for me before.

Barry may have little to no interest in tracking down Lady Mary's murderer but if he finds out the suspected killer is Vlad who is reputed to be the "current" owner of the magic mace Skull crusher , well suddenly you may find that Barry is much more interested in chasing down clues. Sure his motivations may not be as pure as some of the other players but who cares as long as he is interested.

tldr; figure out what motivates Barry and use it to your best advantage. Think outside the box and try to drag his motivators into areas that usually don't interest him.

INDYSTAR188
2012-06-19, 09:14 PM
I have had a player similar to this and the trick is generally to get them invested in the character, because if they don't care about the character then they aren't going to apply much thought to what it does.

Firstly figure out Barry likes the character at all, because if he doesn't then letting him roll a new character might be a good idea. Getting a player invested in a character they don't like is a lot of work so don't do it if you don't have to.

From there try to figure out what Barry the player likes and use that;

So far you have said he likes kick in the door style action but he hasn't been responding well to plots based off his back story.

What i would do here is start using fame and gear as motivation.

Firstly if his kick in the door style antics are successful have the word get out.

Have a tavern keeper make comment about that fight with the kabolds the other week and shout him a free drink.

Have a couple of street toughs go to threaten him only to be dragged away by a friend because .. "guys are you morons!!! that's Barry... lets get out of here."

Don't do anything that requires his interaction because that can be detrimental to the process but if he interacts of his own accord the let him go with it.

Its amazing what a bit of character renown can do for players of Barry's type for character investment.

Now if this starts to work you can use followers to really build on this;

Have some of the younger lads in the local area start coming up to him during down time wanting to train under Barry. See how he takes to this cautiously but if it catches his interest these young fighters he is training can later become useful plot hooks because they are npc's he has invested in himself.

Now using gear to get players like Barry invested in a plot hook has worked wonders for me before.

Barry may have little to no interest in tacking down Lady Mary's murderer but if he finds out the suspected killer is Vlad who is reputed to be the "current" owner of the magic mace Skull crusher , well suddenly you may find that Barry is much more interested in chasing down clues. Sure his motivations may not be as pure as some of the other players but who cares as long as he is interested.

tldr; figure out what motivates Barry and use it to your best advantage. Think outside the box and try to drag his motivators into areas that usually don't interest him.

This is awesome advice! Now I want to go join your group and take Barry's place! I want the 'Skull Crusher' and I want renown and.... oh wait... I'm DMing a game and can use this advice on two of my players who are playing their characters similar to how Barry plays his. You Sir are amazing and I'm jealous I'm not gaming in your group!

Kaun
2012-06-19, 09:54 PM
This is awesome advice! Now I want to go join your group and take Barry's place! I want the 'Skull Crusher' and I want renown and.... oh wait... I'm DMing a game and can use this advice on two of my players who are playing their characters similar to how Barry plays his. You Sir are amazing and I'm jealous I'm not gaming in your group!


No problem, hopefully the tricks serve you well! :smallsmile: