Do Natural Attacks Count As Unarmed Strikes?

[White_Drake]

The title pretty much says it all; I'm making a Bear Warrior with levels in Fist of the Forest and I want to know if I get the damage increase.

[KillianHawkeye]

No, an unarmed strike is one of many forms of natural attacks (although it's unique in that it doesn't use the normal rules for such).

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

you can still use unarmed strikes when in bear form

[White_Drake]

But I could not simultaneously use my natural attacks, correct?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

But I could not simultaneously use my natural attacks, correct?
Not simultanously: later (during the same full attack)

You can full attack with kicks (unarmed strike damage, iteratives) then add all your natural weapons at a -5 penality, as usual.
Natural weapons can be used as additional secondary attacks when the limb is free and was not used previously for different attacks (ie, you can't use both fists and claws, or headbutts and bites)

[mattie_p]

Not simultanously: later (during the same full attack)

You can full attack with kicks (unarmed strike damage, iteratives) then add all your natural weapons at a -5 penality, as usual.
Natural weapons can be used as additional secondary attacks when the limb is free and was not used previously for different attacks (ie, you can't use both fists and claws, or headbutts and bites)

This. Except that unarmed strikes are not really designated as a particular body part. Your entire body is the weapon in unarmed strikes. Fists, elbows, head, knee, feet (for humanoids). Since the use of an unarmed strike does not designate what particular part is used, natural weapons are still available for use.

[killem2]

So when a monk/psychic warrior turns into one of the many forms/claw attacks/metamorphosis and such, you can reap the rewards of size changes and such but choose to use your unarmed strikes as though you were a monk still?

I thought those effects replaced your standard unarmed attacks. Nice to hear it doesn't!

Might have to go back and evaluate my psychic warrior before a session with the new DM. :smallbiggrin:

[White_Drake]

So, just to clarify, I could not add the bonus to unarmed damage from Fist of the Forest to any natural attacks my character got while in bear form?

[Sir Swindle89]

no you could not.

Well other than Unarmed Strike. But you couldn't boost your claw or bite damage for example.

Also technically you can only use secondary natural attacks while using wepons. So as a bear you could unarmed strike and then claw but not bite.

[Curmudgeon]

So, just to clarify, I could not add the bonus to unarmed damage from Fist of the Forest to any natural attacks my character got while in bear form?
No, that applies exclusively to unarmed attacks.

Also note that you only get secondary natural attacks (with the usual -5 penalty to each) when you also use unarmed strikes in the round. You don't get your form's primary natural attack(s).

[White_Drake]

So I could make a full attack with unarmed strikes, and then use secondary natural weapons to exceed the normal limit on the number of attacks that I receive, ie. BAB +11 Unarmed Strike +11/+6 and then two claws at +6, for a total of +11/+6/+6/+6?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

BaB +11 gives you 3 unarmed attacks (11/6/1)

And yes, you add secondary attacks.

Note: Primary natural weapons can be used as secondary weapons (just see half-dragon)

So, your full attack is:

11/6/1 (unarmed strikes)
6/6/6 (claws and bite)

[Curmudgeon]

So I could make a full attack with unarmed strikes, and then use secondary natural weapons to exceed the normal limit on the number of attacks that I receive, ie. BAB +11 Unarmed Strike +11/+6 and then two claws at +6, for a total of +11/+6/+6/+6?
Almost right. With BAB +11 you'll get unarmed strikes at +11, +6, and +1. So after the above you'll make your final unarmed attack.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So, just to clarify, I could not add the bonus to unarmed damage from Fist of the Forest to any natural attacks my character got while in bear form?

Do things that give specific benefits to longswords apply to all manufactured weapons, because a longsword is a manufactured weapon? No.

[Sir Swindle89]

Primary natural weapons can be used as secondary weapons (just see half-dragon)



it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack

The half dragon is cheating, it may not and does any way.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

The half dragon is cheating, it may not and does any way.Some lycanthropes also use primary natural weapons as secondary weapons when it's useful.
It's some sort of unwritten rule. Most monster entries don't report it because they are not designed to use weapons, but they technically could.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The half dragon is cheating, it may not and does any way.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's always how it works. See razorclaw/longtooth shifter. Unless you're saying that lycanthropes, half-dragons, and shifters are all cheating, that's how it works. Oh, and there's also Girallon Arms soulmeld.

[Venger]

there is a feat called "beast strike" from dragon magazine #355, which your DM may or may not allow. you need imp unarmed strike, BA 5, and a claw or slam. when making an unarmed strike or grapple to deal damage, add your claw/slam damage.

[Togo]

It's some sort of unwritten rule.

It's written on page 299 of the monster manual. Full Attack, natural and manufactured weapons.

You get your full attack with manufactured weapons as normal, and can then add your natural weapons as secondary attacks.

In this case unarmed attacks, if used as a manufactured weapon, get their normal full attack progression, and then you add natural weapons as secondary attacks (-5 to hit, one attack only, +1/2 str, can't use a natural weapon if that limb is already being used).

[Curmudgeon]

It's written on page 299 of the monster manual. Full Attack, natural and manufactured weapons.
...
In this case unarmed attacks, if used as a manufactured weapon
But that's the thing: unarmed attacks aren't ever manufactured weapons, or "used as a manufactured weapon"; they're natural attacks. They're natural attacks with special rules, and specifically for Monks have special consideration.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. However, making full attacks involves neither a spell nor an effect that enhances manufactured weapons.

While you might wish to draw parallels, this quote does not strictly apply.

[KillianHawkeye]

He just meant that unarmed strikes use the same rules (iterative attacks) as manufactured weapons do.

[Curmudgeon]

He just meant that unarmed strikes use the same rules (iterative attacks) as manufactured weapons do.
While they use iterative attacks, they're still never manufactured. It's not what Togo means, but what the rules actually say, that's the issue.

[candycorn]

While they use iterative attacks, they're still never manufactured. It's not what Togo means, but what the rules actually say, that's the issue.

They follow the rules for manufactured weapons, and they're listed with manufactured weapons.

Further, they're not listed anywhere in the table listings or rules for natural weapons, therefore they are not.

Just because it makes sense to call them natural weapons does not make it so.

[Togo]

Unarmed strikes aren't natural weapons. They don't follow any of the rules for natural weapons. For example, you can never have iterative attacks with a natural weapon.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Unarmed strikes ARE natural weapons.

Although they follow different rules.

Read the SRD, it's clearly stated.

Here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.

And here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).
A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

Unarmed Strikes are natural weapons that function as manufactured weapons.
IF you are a monk (and only if you are a monk) you can treat Unarmed Strikes as manufactured weapons for other purposes

[mattie_p]

Unarmed strikes also provoke attacks of opportunity, in contrast to manufactured or natural weapons, unless the character is a monk or it has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Unarmed Strike) Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

They are also light weapons that can be used to power attack with.
And you can TWF with them even if it's just "one" weapon

Definitely, unarmed strike is the strangest and most complicated weapon in D&D

[Curmudgeon]

Further, they're not listed anywhere in the table listings or rules for natural weapons, therefore they are not.
Failing to find a rule in one particular place does not mean that rule does not exist. (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.) You simply weren't looking in the right places.
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).

Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat. The RAW citations are clear: unarmed strikes are natural weapons. They have special rules, but really, it's obvious: what blacksmith or factory produces your unarmed strikes? They're not manufactured.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

what blacksmith or factory produces your unarmed strikes?your mom :thog:

[Curmudgeon]

your mom :thog:
Calling my Mom a factory simply because she produced 5 kids after me is just rude. :smallmad:

[BlueEyes]

I have a better question: A shield is a shield or a weapon?

[killem2]

So If I am a level 1 psychic warrior, and I use bite of the wolf, I get my unarmed strike at full attack bonus, then the bite is taken at a -5?

[Darrin]

The half dragon is cheating, it may not and does any way.

Not cheating. Actually, the half-dragon is following the rules. This is in the MM/SRD:

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon." (emphasis added)


I have a better question: A shield is a shield or a weapon?

So long as it's a light or heavy shield, it's both. However, depending on how you parse the rules, it may or may not be the only martial bludgeoning weapon that you can only use for off-hand attacks.

"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light/heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light/heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light/heavy shield as a light/one-handed weapon."

However, I haven't run into any DMs that won't let you use a shield bash as a primary weapon, if you are so inclined.

You can enchant a shield as both a piece of armor or as a weapon. You have to pay for the enchantments separately (a shield with a +1 enhancement bonus to AC does not automatically count as a +1 weapon).

[Curmudgeon]

I have a better question: A shield is a shield or a weapon?
It's both. Didn't you watch Game of Thrones? Tyrion Lannister demonstrated that in The Wolf and the Lion.

So If I am a level 1 psychic warrior, and I use bite of the wolf, I get my unarmed strike at full attack bonus, then the bite is taken at a -5?
Yes, that's the way secondary natural attacks work.