Extra Spell Feat

[Fineous Orlon]

This came up in another thread:

Extra Spell keeps you stuck on the same list. That's why it sucks.

I don't see it.

I do not find this anywhere in the text of the feat Extra Spell in Complete Arcane, nor in the official errata for Complete Arcane.

I am inclined to think 'stuck on the same list' is not correct, but am willing to be shown the error of my ways.

[Telonius]

This came up in another thread:

Extra Spell keeps you stuck on the same list. That's why it sucks.

I don't see it.

I do not find this anywhere in the text of the feat Extra Spell in Complete Arcane, nor in the official errata for Complete Arcane.

I am inclined to think 'stuck on the same list' is not correct, but am willing to be shown the error of my ways.

I suppose there's nothing stopping a character from picking something on another spell list for the spell he "learns." There is a big problem, though - how many times can he cast that spell per day? If it's not on that class's spell list, none. (A Wizard19/Cleric1 doesn't suddenly get to prepare Level 9 divine spells just because he has open level 9 slots).

[Amphetryon]

Official WotC answer:


Originally Posted by FAQ:
Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?

No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

[Roguenewb]

FAQs aren't RAW, as somebody's signature says. They never released an errata for the feat. Frankly, what's the nastiest thing you can do with it? I had a beguiler take Extra Spell (Scorching Ray), and it made little difference. The worst I can think of, is like, grabbing an obscure domain spell on a wizard maybe? I dunno, I usually let the feat nab any spell of the same type (arcane vs divine), however, if the player is picking something that is also on their spell list, they don't get it lower that their normal list says (No level 1 dispels or haste on the wizard!)

[Fineous Orlon]

Official WotC answer:[quote=FAQ]
Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?

No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

The part bolded is where the author FAQ tries to add to the written rules, which it should not do. That is the function of errata.

The direction Telonius points seems more to the point.


I suppose there's nothing stopping a character from picking something on another spell list for the spell he "learns." There is a big problem, though - how many times can he cast that spell per day? If it's not on that class's spell list, none.

[Amphetryon]

FAQs aren't RAW, as somebody's signature says. They never released an errata for the feat. Frankly, what's the nastiest thing you can do with it? I had a beguiler take Extra Spell (Scorching Ray), and it made little difference. The worst I can think of, is like, grabbing an obscure domain spell on a wizard maybe? I dunno, I usually let the feat nab any spell of the same type (arcane vs divine), however, if the player is picking something that is also on their spell list, they don't get it lower that their normal list says (No level 1 dispels or haste on the wizard!)

They're not RAW, but in the absence of further word from WotC - which seems extraordinarily unlikely at this point, with the 5e playtests released and all - the FAQ stands as the most official clarification of the rules available. Dismissing them simply because they disagree with your preferred reading and didn't take the form you want seems a bit silly.

Remember Commandment #3 of Practical Optimization: RAW is a Myth.

[ericgrau]

Lack of errata does not validate an opinion. Lack of something provides zero evidence for anything at all for that matter. Heck there isn't errata expanding Extra Spell to include all spell lists either.

I wouldn't take FAQ as 100% accurate but since it comes from the people who wrote the feats and other rules to begin with I would consider it with more weight than other opinions.

[nedz]

When I first mentioned this on the other thread I did state that it was debatable. (OK I was trying to get divine access to Lightning Bolt, so doubley debatable I suppose).

RAW seems open to allowing this and its probably fine for TO, all things considered. For PO: well you're going to hit Rule 0, specifically the DM's interpretation.

I don't think that there is a hard answer.

[Fineous Orlon]

I suppose there's nothing stopping a character from picking something on another spell list for the spell he "learns." There is a big problem, though - how many times can he cast that spell per day? If it's not on that class's spell list, none. (A Wizard19/Cleric1 doesn't suddenly get to prepare Level 9 divine spells just because he has open level 9 slots).

This post highlights the fact that the feat Extra Spell does not include the explicit text to the effect of 'add this spell to your class list' or 'you may prepare/ cast this spell as if it were on your class list.'

This would also be a problem with researched spells also. Independent Rresearch in the PHB, p 180, does not mention adding the researched spell to your class list, or being able to prepare/ cast this new spell as if it were on your class spell list. This section also points to Chapter 2 of the DMG, p. 35-6, Creating New Spells. This section also does not mention adding a new spell to a class list, or enabling a character to cast a spell as if it were on its class list.

So, RAW, new spells can be researched, but never prepared or cast. In the same vein, one could choose a spell that complies with the written text in the feat Extra Spell, and yet be unable to prepare or cast it.

This is... unsatisfactory.

[Jarian]

This is... unsatisfactory.

You get used to it after a while. :smallwink:

More seriously, there is no hard and fast answer on this one that doesn't boil down to splitting hairs for the sake of splitting them, or relying on CustServ interpretations. Those that want it to work will find that it does, while those that don't will find that it doesn't. That's really what it amounts to in the end.

Personally, I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, you can snag some really powerful spells. On the other hand, you're burning a feat to do something that most classes are capable of doing already to one degree or another (getting off-list spell access). *shrug*

[Telonius]

I think that's where you have to delve into RAI vs RAW. In researching a new spell, I think we can probably assume that the designers intended people to actually be able to use the spell. It seems reasonable that they would figure the DM would assign it to the class in question.

Also ... looking at the PHB, p.174: "The next line of a spell description gives the spell’s level, a number between 0 and 9 that defines the spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by an abbreviation for the class whose members can cast the spell. The Level entry also indicates whether a spell is a domain spell and, if so, what its domain and its level as a domain spell are. A spell’s level affects the DC for any save allowed against the effect."

This seems to suggest that the class that can cast it is actually part of the "Level" entry of the spell. If they've already said to assign the spell a Level (and the "creating new spells" section does mention that), then you've already assigned it to a spell list.

That interpretation also supports the FAQ ruling. Because "the highest level of spell you can currently cast" wouldn't be "3," it'd be "Sor3." One below that would be "Sor2." Since you can't cast "Clr3" spells, you wouldn't be able to take a "Clr2" spell as your extra spell.

[Thurbane]

They're not RAW, but in the absence of further word from WotC - which seems extraordinarily unlikely at this point, with the 5e playtests released and all - the FAQ stands as the most official clarification of the rules available. Dismissing them simply because they disagree with your preferred reading and didn't take the form you want seems a bit silly.

I wouldn't take FAQ as 100% accurate but since it comes from the people who wrote the feats and other rules to begin with I would consider it with more weight than other opinions.
I agree with both of these, 100%. The FAQ is sometimes self contradictory, or just plain wrong within the structure of already established rules (but then, so many things within 3.X books are also self contradictory or just plain wrong), but it is far more "official" than a ruling reached by forum debates of end users,

Having said that, my personal answer to the question "Can I use Extra Spell to obtain a spell from another classes list?" would be the same as with most other ruling questions: "Ask your DM". :smallbiggrin:

[Fineous Orlon]

OK:

The feat Extra Spell does mention under 'Benefit' [the crunch of a feat description] that this feat would allow a sorcerer to expand her repertoire.

So, if you pick a spell that fits the feat's requirements [any level up to one level lower than the highest spell you can currently cast, no other qualification is listed], the spell becomes part of your repertoire... you can use it. Repertoire IS actually mentioned in the PH[p179], btw.

Sorcerers are mentioned in the PH as drawing their spells primarily [p54] from the Sorcerer/ Wizard spell list, and spells known can only be chosen at level up[p179]. Choosing a feat occurs at level up.

Additionally, 'classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells' benefit [crunch from the 'Benefit' section again] from Extra Spell in that they can 'learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.'

This is key. At level up, a Wizard has access to learn any 2 of the spells on the Wizard spell list of the appropriate levels, and a cleric has access [and knows] to all clerical spells of the appropriate levels, period.

Ergo, a wizard or a cleric can use this feat to choose a spell not on their own class's spell list.

Shorthand, and not RAW, Extra Spell is 'instant' research for any existing, but qualifying as delineated in the feat, spell not on one's class list, adding to one's repertoire.

[Fineous Orlon]

I agree with both of these, 100%. The FAQ is sometimes self contradictory, or just plain wrong within the structure of already established rules (but then, so many things within 3.X books are also self contradictory or just plain wrong), but it is far more "official" than a ruling reached by forum debates of end users,

Having said that, my personal answer to the question "Can I use Extra Spell to obtain a spell from another classes list?" would be the same as with most other ruling questions: "Ask your DM". :smallbiggrin:

Yes, although I use the FAQ as only 'good general use,' or 'general common ground.' It is clear sometimes that the FAQ writers know less about some subjects than those intensely interested in answering a particular question.

And, the feat, of course, is not a hammer with which to hit your DM over the head.

There is, however, a satisfaction, and a use, in chasing down the rabbit hole as far as one can, to determine what the rule actually says, and how it relates to the rest of the rules.

[Telonius]

Additionally, 'classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells' benefit [crunch from the 'Benefit' section again] from Extra Spell in that they can 'learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.'

This is key. At level up, a Wizard has access to learn any 2 of the spells on the Wizard spell list of the appropriate levels, and a cleric has access [and knows] to all clerical spells of the appropriate levels, period.

Ergo, a wizard or a cleric can use this feat to choose a spell not on their own class's spell list.

Shorthand, and not RAW, Extra Spell is 'instant' research for any existing, but qualifying as delineated in the feat, spell not on one's class list, adding to one's repertoire.

More hair-splitting screwiness ahead ...

Feats come before class features on level-up (PHB 59). At the time you take the feat, the Wizard has access to none of the "new" spells he'd get at that level. :smalleek:

[Fineous Orlon]

I think that's where you have to delve into RAI vs RAW. In researching a new spell, I think we can probably assume that the designers intended people to actually be able to use the spell. It seems reasonable that they would figure the DM would assign it to the class in question.

I agree.

I think it is also reasonable that the Extra Spell feat accomplishes the same thing, especially given the 'lacks access to and would be unable to research' phrase, and given spell access rules for clerics and wizards.


Also ... looking at the PHB, p.174: "The next line of a spell description gives the spell’s level, a number between 0 and 9 that defines the spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by an abbreviation for the class whose members can cast the spell. The Level entry also indicates whether a spell is a domain spell and, if so, what its domain and its level as a domain spell are. A spell’s level affects the DC for any save allowed against the effect."

This seems to suggest that the class that can cast it is actually part of the "Level" entry of the spell. If they've already said to assign the spell a Level (and the "creating new spells" section does mention that), then you've already assigned it to a spell list.

This is really interesting, although I think the part you quoted points to level as the number indicating relative power, with my bolding indicating what is not such a number.

However, suppose your point was strong rules-fu. It does not speak to a sorcerer picking spells drawn 'primarily' from the Sorcerer/ wizard spell list, which strongly implies that other options/ lists are... possible.

[Fineous Orlon]

More hair-splitting screwiness ahead ...

Feats come before class features on level-up (PHB 59). At the time you take the feat, the Wizard has access to none of the "new" spells he'd get at that level. :smalleek:

Well, the order of class level up is important, which is why I included cleric in there as well.

Clerics also have more options for learning spells than sorcerers. They get all existing cleric spells of appropriate level as known upon level up, they get all cleric spells of appropriate level in new official D and D 3.5 supplements as spells known upon publication, they can research spells, and they gain new spells known when they choose domains, add domains, or switch domains. None of these options apply to sorcerers.

So, a cleric could easily choose from spell lists of other classes...

Sure, pick a spell of up to one level lower than you can currently cast, but remembering the order in which a character levels up! Very nice! If you are about to gain a spell level, it does not benefit you at feat choice!

Good catch!
Sorry for the quick response which did not DIRECTLY address your point.

[Fineous Orlon]

More hair-splitting screwiness ahead ...


By the bye, hair-splitting screwiness, and chasing down the rabbit-hole, is encouraged in this-here thread, as long as it is on-point.

After all, I exited that other thread specifically not to derail it while chasing down the rabbit-hole...

[eggs]

Normally, in my own games I like to use it as if it granted access to a spell from any other list.

I do this for a number of reasons: I don't think the rules-based argument against it is very strong, I don't think its abusability is meaningfully higher than that of spellcasting without the feat, I think it's a useful and interesting addition to the game and I like that it provides a parallel to the staple feats of other major magic systems (Expanded Knowledge, Shape Soulmeld, Martial Study/Stance).

But I don't think it's fair to treat as The One Right Way or that it should be expected in somebody else's game: It does open the possibility of a higher campaign power level - through underleveled spells on alternate lists, through weird interactions with existing prerequisites and feat limits and through universal access to the spells that can utterly break Sorcerers &c - and the FAQ indicate that despite its phrasing, it probably wasn't supposed to access everything.