Fighting creatures immune to magic

[Raimun]

Here's the situation. You are a spell caster (of your choice) and you find yourself fighting a creature that has Immunity to Magic (like Golem). Escape is not an option. You have to destroy or otherwise defeat said creature. How do you win this fight?

Sure, DnD is a group effort. Golems, etc. give martial characters more chances to shine and I have no problem with that. I just find it fun to hear or use varied tactics. This is one situation where you really need them. What to do if your opponent is immune to your abilities?

Sure, you can always Summon something to fight it or buff yourself (if gish) but I'm interested to hear more creative ways you have used or would use.

Edit: It can be situational. Sure, there's not always ceilings to collapse or inviting chasms but whatever. Improvising is good.

[Jarian]

Transmute X to X spells would be my go-to answer without knowing the details of the fight.

[Raimun]

Transmute X to X spells would be my go-to answer without knowing the details of the fight.

I like your way of thinking.

[Urpriest]

If it's Immunity to Magic rather than Magic Immunity, just use spells that don't grant spell resistance. Most casters should have a few available.

[watchwood]

I play a clericzilla, so I would just walk up to it and beat the crap out of it.

[Slipperychicken]

Use any tactic which ignores SR. Easy as that. Most of your battlefield control (Web, Solid Fog, Wall of X, etc.) works just fine. Orbs of X can be nice, dropping Shrink Item'd big things on it can be too.


Golems can't fly, so we could also just float in the air far above it and laugh it to death. Reserve Feats are SR: No, so we could steadily plink it to death with those. As with most creatures, a Golem's touch AC is garbage, so hitting won't be a problem, either.

[erikun]

I play a clericzilla, so I would just walk up to it and beat the crap out of it.
Pretty much this. I typically play clerics, so I'll either 'Zilla myself or hit it with my buffed-up barbarian. Unless I am incredibly outclassed, it shouldn't be too hard to outlast them.

There is also something like Stone-Shaping the floor until it can't get out, and walk briskly away.

[Shardan]

Go Ethereal, collapse the room.

Dig, 100' straight down. Refill the hole

Golem+potable hole+bag of holding

Break the Staff (of the archmagi)

Or just teleport your minions (the rest of the party who was relaxing at the local tavern) or pretty much anyone else you can force to fight at your whim. After all, the golem is likely to want to kill anyone in the room, whether they intended to be in the room or not.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Transmute X to X spells would be my go-to answer without knowing the details of the fight.

You mean Transmute X to Y? Because Transmute X to X would be something like "Transmute Stone to Stone".

[Karoht]

Golems?

Reverse Gravity
He might be immune to spells, but I've yet to run afoul of anyone immune to the Laws of SIR ISAAC NEWTON. The fall damage won't kill him, might hurt a bit, but it will still be held helplessly in the air for my caster level in rounds. Plenty of time to come up with another plan if need be.
Unless the Golem's creator built him with the ability to fly. If it's a Golem with a Jet Pack, odds are you're already dead. Because if it has a Jet Pack, there is a good chance that it's also packing a Laser too.

Another great part of Reverse Gravity is the ability to lift extremely heavy rocks with it. And then cancel the spell once the golem is directly under it (assuming the Golem isn't picked up with the Reverse Gravity in the first place). You can solve just about any problem in the universe with a sufficiently sized rock.

The environment around the Golem is fair game. Create Pit still makes a hole in the ground. If you can drop a building or collapse a mountain on the Golem, that is still going to suck.
Sleetstorm, targets an area, it's conjuration. Golem can't see out. Goes for any of the other fog type spells. Blocks line of sight so it can't see it's targets and therefore can't SLAM them to death. Worst case scenario, hide in the fog/storm yourself.
I don't know if Grease will work, Web probably won't.

Wall of X can still slow him down. If you have Lyre of Building, you cast Wall of Stone around the Golem or between you and the Golem and play the Lyre for 1 round. The wall is now invulnerable to damage for the next hour. The Golem remains trapped.

Unless it was constructed with True Seeing, Invisibility will work fine. Unless it was constructed with Tremor Sense/Life Sense, in which case, try not walking on the ground while Invisible.

[Kansaschaser]

As a Transmutation Specialist, I always carry around a few items that have been shrunk down in size with the Srink Item spell. I normally have these items with me.

1. Colossal+++ Quarterstaff. (16d8 damage)
2. 960 gallons(5ft cube) of Acid. (8,000d6 total damage)
3. 960 gallons of burning oil. (full damage varies depending on environment)
4. 5ft cube of granite (21,000 pounds)

Obviously, I always have them turned into a piece of cloth for ease of carrying. I don't want the acid or burning oil to burn through my pocket.

Round 1: Cast Fly. I don't want to be within range of the Golem as I'm a very squishy character. Then I would move up to my maximum flight speed straight up.
Round 2: Depending on what kind of Golem I'm fighting, I will use one of the above shrunk items. I normally go with the Colossal+++ Quarterstaff or the 5ft cube of granite. I'll pull the piece of cloth from my pocket or handy haversack and hold it above the Golem. Then as a free action I'll say the magic word that makes it return to normal size. The Golem would get a reflex save to avoid the falling object. The block of Quarterstaff would only weigh 512lbs, so it would only cause 20d6 of damage(probably not enough to kill in one hit). However, the cube of granite would cause 840d6 of damage.
Round 3: If the Quarterstaff missed or failed to cause damage, I would then use Animate Weapon (3rd level spell). It would then be a Colossal+++ Quarterstaff that would attack every round for 16d8 damage. If the Granite block failed to strike it's target, then I would have to use the Quarterstaff.

Oh, did I mention that all this damage is easily accomplished by 5th level as a Wizard? Also, everything is free except for maybe the burning oil. Even the Acid is free since it was created with the "Transmute Water to Acid" spell from the Stormwrack book.

[Slipperychicken]

Another great part of Reverse Gravity is the ability to lift extremely heavy rocks with it. And then cancel the spell once the golem is directly under it (assuming the Golem isn't picked up with the Reverse Gravity in the first place).

And if he is picked up by it with the stone on top, the Golem will suffer falling damage from both its own falling, and from the rock crashing down on top of it. And then it has a big 'ol rock on its head which it has to push off.


Side note: who would waste 250-500k to build a Golem anyway? That's a phenomenal waste of money, especially for something that can't even fly. For that much cash, you could make yourself (for most intents and purposes) Magic Immune with an item of SR 62.

[Jarian]

You mean Transmute X to Y? Because Transmute X to X would be something like "Transmute Stone to Stone".

I had the feeling someone was going to correct that sooner or later.

[deuxhero]

Golems are mindless and can't rationalize away blatant illusions.

[Karoht]

Golems are mindless and can't rationalize away blatant illusions.I thought their magic immunity meant they wouldn't be all that affected by them.
And true seeing often seems to be built into just about every Golem I've run across.

[Vladislav]

I like it how a Wizard has, oh, only about a couple of dozens of spells useful to fight creatures "immune to magic". Golems are a valiant effort to make melee relevant, but ultimately it falls short; casters still dominate.

Now try to imagine a Fighter facing a creature with the special ability "Immune to weapons" :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

I like it how a Wizard has, oh, only about a couple of dozens of spells useful to fight creatures "immune to magic". Golems are a valiant effort to make melee relevant, but ultimately it falls short; casters still dominate.

Yeah. Among other things, Magic Immunity should really have been named Infinite Spell Resistance. WotC also printed several dozen spells per book, which makes some sense, more options can make a more interesting game. They also printed about that many feats per book, with what I imagine was the same mentality. Problem is, a Wizard gets a near-unlimited number of spells (plus numerous ways to get around the few limitations they actually have), but a Fighter only gets so many feats in his lifetime, and the fighter has to spend almost all his resources just to stay relevant at his one trick, and has little left over to deal with counters to that trick.

Magicians have counters to their counters, and counters to those, and fighters have "I hit it differently" or "I hit it harder". There were also countless spells written for the explicit purpose of countering/screwing/invalidating fighter-types (Solid Fog, Mirror Image , summoning, and undead creation come to mind).

[Arcanist]

Not many things are immune to a destroyed environment or an environment that is trying to kill them :smallamused:

[Karoht]

Not many things are immune to a destroyed environment or an environment that is trying to kill them :smallamused:That was more or less my point.
Even if the Golem has an Anti Magic Field, there are plenty of spells that aren't affected by the AMF once the spell takes place.
Now granted, give the Golem an AMF and True Seeing, the options become rather slim on spells that will be useful. But not to the point where you can force melee combat to occur. In fact, in a AMF, the melee combatant who has magical buffs and magic items is probably at a severe disadvantage.

[deuxhero]

I thought their magic immunity meant they wouldn't be all that affected by them.
And true seeing often seems to be built into just about every Golem I've run across.


None of them have it standard though (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm) (not even the epic ones)

Magic immunity is effect is infinite spell resistance, Silent Image and its kin don't allow SR (and don't target the golem anyways).

[Urpriest]

I thought their magic immunity meant they wouldn't be all that affected by them.
And true seeing often seems to be built into just about every Golem I've run across.

Most of the basic illusions don't grant spell resistance.

And none of the golems in the monster manual have True Seeing.

[Karoht]

Most of the basic illusions don't grant spell resistance.

And none of the golems in the monster manual have True Seeing.
Well then, my DM is a jerk :smallwink:

Lets take an Illusion like Minor Image. And I make a wall between me and the Golem, who looks like he is about to charge me.

Does the immunity mean he can charge right through my wall illusion? Or does it make the save to disbelieve as normal?


(Sorry for the nub question, Illusions aren't really my specialty)

[Urpriest]

Well then, my DM is a jerk :smallwink:

Lets take an Illusion like Minor Image. And I make a wall between me and the Golem, who looks like he is about to charge me.

Does the immunity mean he can charge right through my wall illusion? Or does it make the save to disbelieve as normal?


(Sorry for the nub question, Illusions aren't really my specialty)

Minor Image functions like Silent Image. Silent Image says "Spell Resistance: No". Thus the Golem's immunity to magic has no effect.

The Golem, just like anyone else, sees a wall suddenly appear. What the Golem does depends on its programming. If it was told "If a wall appears in the middle of a battle, assume it's an illusion and keep going" then it will do that. If it was told "If a wall appears in the middle of a battle, assume it's a conjured wall and try to beat it down" it will do that. If it was told "If a wall appears in the middle of a battle, try to walk around it" it will do that.

[Slipperychicken]

Well then, my DM is a jerk :smallwink:

Lets take an Illusion like Minor Image. And I make a wall between me and the Golem, who looks like he is about to charge me.

Does the immunity mean he can charge right through my wall illusion? Or does it make the save to disbelieve as normal?


(Sorry for the nub question, Illusions aren't really my specialty)

Magic Immunity is treated as unbeatable Spell Resistance. Minor Image is "SR: No", so the creature would have to make a Will save to disbelieve as soon as it "interacts" with the illusion, whatever that means. Although the construct is immune to mind-affecting (no intelligence score), it would still need to save, because Minor Image is not mind-affecting.

EDIT: Swordsaged by Ur-Priest... Ur-Priest'd?

[Vladislav]

As a Transmutation Specialist, I can [[destroy stuff at will]]

You almost sound like it's a good thing.

[deuxhero]

Well then, my DM is a jerk :smallwink:

Lets take an Illusion like Minor Image. And I make a wall between me and the Golem, who looks like he is about to charge me.

Does the immunity mean he can charge right through my wall illusion? Or does it make the save to disbelieve as normal?


(Sorry for the nub question, Illusions aren't really my specialty)

The creature's mindlessness means that it instantly forgets you are behind the wall.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Magic Immunity is treated as unbeatable Spell Resistance. Minor Image is "SR: No", so the creature would have to make a Will save to disbelieve as soon as it "interacts" with the illusion, whatever that means. Although the construct is immune to mind-affecting (no intelligence score), it would still need to save, because Minor Image is not mind-affecting.

EDIT: Swordsaged by Ur-Priest... Ur-Priest'd?

Because I pity you for being Ur-priested, I will quote you instead of Ur-priest, Maybe it makes up for it? :smallwink:

You guys are right, and I am the last to claim that a spellcaster cannot beat, fool and befuddle a golem. However, most golems I know and used do not follow people around. Instead, they have a clear mission. As in 'nobody passes this doorway'. They stand around and beat everyone to pulp that tries to do so.

Of course, a simple Invisibility solves that issue, but then you still have not 'beaten' the golem. Sure, the midless golem will 'fall' for the illusionary wall thing, but I think they will in general not give a 'flying duck' about the wall, being mindless and all.

It is easy enough to kill em dead with SR:No effect, but I think they lack the intelligence to be affected enough by illusions to actually 'beat' them. An illusion might allow you to 'bypass' a golem, but not really 'beat' them.

[Kansaschaser]

You almost sound like it's a good thing.

That's just how I roll. :smallwink:

Now, I can probably describe about 5 more ways to kill a Golem with Transmutation spells if I were higher than 5th level. Some of my favorite ways involve Telekinesis.

[Xerinous]

I think my favorite way to deal with immunity to magic is a Hungry Pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hungry-pit). Reflex save or be dropped 100 feet, and then crushed for 4d6/round for CL+1 rounds. Well, there is a save to halve the crushing damage, but still.

Of course, I just like being able to say I dropped someone into an extra-dimensional hole that tried to eat them.

[Little Brother]

My go-to method is summoning. It is generally inferior to most indirect ways of killing it, but it being mobbed by multiple castings Abyssal Army and Heavenly Horde(I do always wonder about spell naming. I mean, Wizards has a bigger alliteration fetish than Marvel). It has both the satisfying crunch of both crazy devil and stuck-up angel bones AND the deliciousness of forcing them to work together. Or, if you're willing to waste 500 XP, Call Marut(Or if, for some reason, you made one of the core golems)+enemy Golem=Rock'em Sock'em Robots.

Otherwise, Rock to Lava=dead golem. Or any number of easy things, like Floating Disk+Summon Monster X summoning a Rhino.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Golems?

Reverse Gravity
He might be immune to spells, but I've yet to run afoul of anyone immune to the Laws of SIR ISAAC NEWTON. The fall damage won't kill him, might hurt a bit, but it will still be held helplessly in the air for my caster level in rounds. Plenty of time to come up with another plan if need be.
Unless the Golem's creator built him with the ability to fly. If it's a Golem with a Jet Pack, odds are you're already dead. Because if it has a Jet Pack, there is a good chance that it's also packing a Laser too.

Another great part of Reverse Gravity is the ability to lift extremely heavy rocks with it. And then cancel the spell once the golem is directly under it (assuming the Golem isn't picked up with the Reverse Gravity in the first place). You can solve just about any problem in the universe with a sufficiently sized rock.


The environment around the Golem is fair game. Create Pit still makes a hole in the ground. If you can drop a building or collapse a mountain on the Golem, that is still going to suck.

Sleetstorm, targets an area, it's conjuration. Golem can't see out. Goes for any of the other fog type spells. Blocks line of sight so it can't see it's targets and therefore can't SLAM them to death. Worst case scenario, hide in the fog/storm yourself.
I don't know if Grease will work, Web probably won't.

Wall of X can still slow him down. If you have Lyre of Building, you cast Wall of Stone around the Golem or between you and the Golem and play the Lyre for 1 round. The wall is now invulnerable to damage for the next hour. The Golem remains trapped.

Unless it was constructed with True Seeing, Invisibility will work fine. Unless it was constructed with Tremor Sense/Life Sense, in which case, try not walking on the ground while Invisible.

The Gravorg (MM2) says hello. Technically, he laughs at Sir Isaac because this is his entire strategy. Reverse Gravity (Sp) at-will (something like CL14, I believe)

[Urpriest]

The creature's mindlessness means that it instantly forgets you are behind the wall.

If it's programmed that way, sure. Lots of different sorts of instructions you can give a golem.

[ericgrau]

Buff allies and lock down foes. Both are SR no, and both tend to be better than other spells anyway.

I don't mean bull's strength though, I mean haste, greater invisibility, etc. For lock down you get web, wall of force, evard's black tentacles, solid fog, etc. Resilient sphere is good too if it's a slow solo foe like a golem. Even though they have all those immunities their saves are crud.

So there actually isn't much strategy change against immune foes since direct attacks tend to be inferior anyway. The few direct spells I do have would remain unused, but oh well. I'll fireball the next fight and if there are enough foes to fireball then their SR and/or saves and/or other defenses/immunities are probably low anyway.

[whibla]

As a Transmutation Specialist, I always carry around a few items that have been shrunk down in size with the Srink Item spell. I normally have these items with me.

1. Colossal+++ Quarterstaff. (16d8 damage)
2. 960 gallons(5ft cube) of Acid. (8,000d6 total damage)
3. 960 gallons of burning oil. (full damage varies depending on environment)
4. 5ft cube of granite (21,000 pounds)

I suggest you recheck your maths...

Shrink Item has a target of one touched object of up to 2cu. ft./level.

5ft cube = 5ft x 5ft x 5 ft = 125 cubic feet. In other words, to shrink your 5ft cube of granite you'd need to be a 63rd level caster (assuming no meta-magic).


Round 3: If the Quarterstaff missed or failed to cause damage, I would then use Animate Weapon (3rd level spell). It would then be a Colossal+++ Quarterstaff that would attack every round for 16d8 damage. If the Granite block failed to strike it's target, then I would have to use the Quarterstaff.

Animate Weapon has a target of weapon touched. A Colossal+++ quarterstaff doesn't count as a weapon for a medium character, any more than a building does. It is simply too large (quite apart from the fact that, again, it wasn't shrinkable in the first place).


Oh, did I mention that all this damage is easily accomplished by 5th level as a Wizard? Also, everything is free except for maybe the burning oil. Even the Acid is free since it was created with the "Transmute Water to Acid" spell from the Stormwrack book.

Well, you have now, but you are, I'm afraid, in error. 63rd level caster, yes, 5th level, no. But I'd sure love to see the look on your face if the above were allowed and you got hit by an area dispel magic, or walked into an antimagic zone...

[Kansaschaser]

I suggest you recheck your maths...

Shrink Item has a target of one touched object of up to 2cu. ft./level.

5ft cube = 5ft x 5ft x 5 ft = 125 cubic feet. In other words, to shrink your 5ft cube of granite you'd need to be a 63rd level caster (assuming no meta-magic).

You're right. I forgot that I'm staring at my higher level character sheet. At 5th level, I would only be able to shrink a chunk of rock that weighs 1,680 pounds. So it would only cause 67d6 damage when dropped on a golem.



Animate Weapon has a target of weapon touched. A Colossal+++ quarterstaff doesn't count as a weapon for a medium character, any more than a building does. It is simply too large (quite apart from the fact that, again, it wasn't shrinkable in the first place).

The spell Animate Weapon does not state that it's a weapon you are wielding. It even states that you can use a weapon that an opponent has dropped. If you were fighting a Colossal creature that dropped a weapon, it's a legal target for the Animate Weapon spell. As long as you touch the weapon at the time of casting and you stay within 30ft during the duration of the spell, any size weapon is a legal target.

As for it being shrinkable, you're right on that also. The Colossal+++ Quarterstaff weighs over 500 pounds, so I would need to have a caster level of 10th. I could however, shrink a Colossal++ Quarterstaff since it only weighs 256 pounds. Since wood only weighs 26 pounds per cubic foot, that would easily be shrinkable for me at 5th level. So I'm missing out on one of the plusses.



Well, you have now, but you are, I'm afraid, in error. 63rd level caster, yes, 5th level, no. But I'd sure love to see the look on your face if the above were allowed and you got hit by an area dispel magic, or walked into an antimagic zone...

I have encountered an Antimagic Zone before. That's why the items are kept in a Handy Haversack. When you enter an Antimagic Zone, it shuts off access to the extradimensional space. So all my shrunk items are safe and so am I. But seriously, what DM would use an Antimagic Zone against a group of characters that are only 5th level?

[JellyPooga]

But seriously, what DM would use an Antimagic Zone against a group of characters that are only 5th level?

A DM who's running a game for characters that are lugging around Colossal+++ quarterstaves in their pack? :smalltongue:

[whibla]

You're right. I forgot that I'm staring at my higher level character sheet. At 5th level, I would only be able to shrink a chunk of rock that weighs 1,680 pounds. So it would only cause 67d6 damage when dropped on a golem.

Well, now I agree with your maths, give or take the weight of a hair...

May I ask, which supplement are you getting your falling damage / damage done from falling objects from, please?


The spell Animate Weapon does not state that it's a weapon you are wielding. It even states that you can use a weapon that an opponent has dropped. If you were fighting a Colossal creature that dropped a weapon, it's a legal target for the Animate Weapon spell. As long as you touch the weapon at the time of casting and you stay within 30ft during the duration of the spell, any size weapon is a legal target.

I obviously read a different version to the one you have, but then I only did a quick search online before I posted earlier. While I'm not sure I agree with this I'm certainly not in a position to argue about it. (and I'm going to guess that even if I did there'd be some vociferous snarls about rules as written, regardless of original intent, imbalance, or lack of clarity :P)


I have encountered an Antimagic Zone before. That's why the items are kept in a Handy Haversack. When you enter an Antimagic Zone, it shuts off access to the extradimensional space. So all my shrunk items are safe and so am I.

Lucky 5th level mage to have a Hewards Handy Haversack. One of the most undercosted items in the 'basic' rules imo. Wish all my characters had one.


But seriously, what DM would use an Antimagic Zone against a group of characters that are only 5th level?

In the game I'm currently running the party, 3rd level, are at this moment sitting cooling their heels in the Royal prisons, manacled to the walls, hands and feet, within an Anti-magic'd cell...Does that answer your question? :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

But seriously, what DM would use an Antimagic Zone against a group of characters that are only 5th level?

One who is totally willing to ignore the ludicrous costs of acquiring even basic Antimagic Shackles (BoED 132k). A non-shackle custom item of Continuous AMF is 198k before item creation shenanigans. I'm pretty sure that puts it out of the price range of even large kingdoms. To keep one AMF running. And the shackes version still allows a DC 28 Escape Artist check to slip out.

So yes, even the kingdom that could spare the cash will be saving it for only the most dangerous Mage-criminals, and probably not the PCs. Not to mention the far more-economical means of keeping people from casting spells: Nonlethal damage. IIRC it's harder to cast spells while unconscious than in an AMF. Yup, that means you just spent 100-200k for something that's less effective than whacking your caster with a sap. If you're worried about letting the poor dude eat, stick a Ring of Sustenance on his finger.

[JellyPooga]

Stuff

...and yet I still find it more plausible for a kingdom to be using anti-magic shackles on low-level PCs than for a 5th level mage to even know where to find a quarterstaff that big.

[Arcanist]

...and yet I still find it more plausible for a kingdom to be using anti-magic shackles on low-level PCs than for a 5th level mage to even know where to find a quarterstaff that big.

Its called a tree :smalltongue:

[JellyPooga]

Its called a tree :smalltongue:

Hmm...typically a Quarterstaff is about as tall as the person wielding it (give or take a bit). A Colossal+++ creature is going to be about 500ft tall (or long), so we're looking at a 500ft Quarterstaff. One of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus_regnans) might just about do it, I suppose! :smallwink:

As for fighting creatures immune to magic with a spellcaster, I say "pish!" to all these namby pampy use-a-spell suggestions! Grab an axe magic-boy and take your best shot! You've (probably) got some smarts, so use 'em; trip the infernal machine up, bind it with adamantine chains and bury that axe in what passes for its skull before it can escape. Golems still see conventionally, so chuck some mud in its face to blind it. Lure it on to a narrow precipice/stair/cliff and shove it off. If you've got a handy lava pit and a piece of rope, run towards the lava holding the rope, which is attached to a conveniently placed hook above you, swing out over the lava and hope the golem follows you; it sinks, you swing back to safety. This also works with non-lava-filled pits too; mud, quicksand, spikes and acid will all do too!

[Templarkommando]

I like it how a Wizard has, oh, only about a couple of dozens of spells useful to fight creatures "immune to magic". Golems are a valiant effort to make melee relevant, but ultimately it falls short; casters still dominate.

Now try to imagine a Fighter facing a creature with the special ability "Immune to weapons" :smallwink:

Easy. Set it on fire. If that doesn't work, bull rush it off the side of a cliff. If a cliff isn't handy find a pit trap in the dungeon and bullrush him into that. Drown it in a grapple counting on your higher fortitude save to save you. If it fights with a bite, cover yourself in an ingested poison (my house rules include that poison use is not necessarily evil) Drop a large rock on top of it. It may technically be immune to the damage from an improvised weapon, but if the rock is large enough, the creature won't be able to get it off. Lead it into a cave with wooden supports holding up the ceiling of the cave. Now set the wooden supports on fire. Even if the creature survives the collapsing cavern, it would likely be pinned by debris, or otherwise unable to move. This means that it's likely the creature could suffocate, or die of starvation before it is rescued.

[Little Brother]

There IS an enemy immune to weapons. It's called "Mid-level or higher Wizard."

Ironguard alone renders you immune to most good weapons, Ghostform should get you further defense, and that's ignoring the fighter even being able to deal with Earthglide/Flight/Etc.

And, yeah, a fighter is bones against it.

[erikun]

Reverse Gravity
He might be immune to spells, but I've yet to run afoul of anyone immune to the Laws of SIR ISAAC NEWTON.
Say hello to an Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm). There's also the Prismatic Golem, which is incorporeal and thus immune to having anything physical dropped onto it.


Now try to imagine a Fighter facing a creature with the special ability "Immune to weapons" :smallwink:
You mean anything with flight? :smalltongue:


The creature's mindlessness means that it instantly forgets you are behind the wall.
Spiders and most insects have Int -, and so they aren't forced to stop moving. How I run them depends on what they're doing; a golem that is guarding something will just go back to guarding it, while one running around attacking things will try to find a way around it.

[CTrees]

...and yet I still find it more plausible for a kingdom to be using anti-magic shackles on low-level PCs than for a 5th level mage to even know where to find a quarterstaff that big.

How about, "by making a craft check?"

Nothing says a quarterstaff has to be made out of one, continuous chunk of wood, so lashing together several trees should work. An unenchanted quarterstaff has a cost of 0gp, independent of size. Thus, making one (or several) doesn't even take any time. I'm of the opinion that you actually need base materials (even if they technically have zero cost*), but as long as the wizard is near some trees, it's a simple matter to craft a colossal+++ quarterstaff.

*otherwise, one could simply fly above enemies and just instantly make infinite colossal+++ quarterstaves and drop them, from the aether.

[JellyPooga]

How about, "by making a craft check?"

Ah, the old "rules vs. making any kind of sense" debate!

Whilst true, a giant could use a tree like a staff or club, it would really still only be a tree, not a weapon. Lashing together a bunch of small trees, likewise, isn't really a quarterstaff per se, but rather a bunch of trees lashed together that is more likely to simply fall apart than ever be useful as a weapon.

A true quarterstaff should be crafted from as few parts as possible, preferably a single piece. As I linked, there do exist trees of sufficient size to create a staff that big (so one existing in a D&D setting is not completely implausable), but the process of a medium sized creature turning it into a weapon would certainly cost more than 0gp and take longer than "no time at all" to complete.

Even using your method of lashing trees, you need to at least buy the vast quantities of rope needed and spend the time it takes to bind them together, so again the zero-cost, zero-time quarterstaff doesn't work here. Hope you spent some ranks on Use Rope too, otherwise that bad-boy is just a pile of logs!

[CTrees]

Ah, the old "rules vs. making any kind of sense" debate!

Yee-up. Unfortunately, as houserules and DM fiat are different for every table, the only common ground we can meaningfully discuss in a thread like this is RAW. Even my concession that I think a crafter should be near some woods to craft ridiculous quarterstaves isn't actually RAW:


The item’s finished price also determines the cost of raw materials.
[...]
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.

Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the DC from the table below.
Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.)

So yeah, infinite quarterstaves of any size in zero time is RAW, even if it doesn't make sense. Honestly, if one is discussing tactics dealing over 100d6 damage to a single target with a low level spell, I don't think a free, giant quarterstaff is worth caring about overly much. Even if it is silly - the entire game is silly (see: catgirls killed by contemplating D&D physics).

For the record, if one of my players tried the instant crafting trick, my response would be:
-if high op, and not trying to create enough staves to create a blackhole, destroying the entire planet: let it slide; it's amusing.
-else: houserule that the market price of some items may be zero, but nothing has a price less than 1sp for the purposes of crafting. Ta-da, suddenly components are required and it takes time, trivially closing the loophole.

[Karoht]

So for absurdity, lets say we were facing a homebrew Golem (which I find to be extremely common around my GM's) with a few things to make said Golem more interesting.
Magic Immunity as Normal
True Seeing
Iron Guard

Is it that much more combat effective? Or only mildly so?

[whibla]

With time to think I came to a few more conclusions regarding the validity of a Colossal+++ staff, that do not rely on any 'definition' of what or does not constitute a weapon.

Firstly, size. A Quarterstaff for a medium creature is (roughly 6' long, and has a diameter of 1"). Doubling these figures for every increase in size gives us: Large (12' x 2"), Huge (24' x 4"), Gargantuan (48' x 8"), Colossal (96' x 16")... I'll stop here actually.

A 96' long 'tree trunk' with a diameter of 16" (1.25') has a volume of approximately 376 cubic feet. Once more we're back to...well, that's shrinkable, using the Shrink Item spell, by a 188th level caster, but certainly not one of 5th level. In fact, using the rough and ready figures above the largest staff that is shrinkable, at 5th level, by the spell in question, is the large one (6 cubic feet), but not the huge one (18 cubic feet).

There is a seperate issue in the concept of dropping an item (of any size) from a height onto the golem, then expecting it to be intact enough to simply pick it up, manually or by spell, and using it as a weapon. Generally, large things dropped from great heights break upon impact, and are not fit for purpose at the end of it. There are ofc rules to cover this, based on hardness and object hitpoints, for anyone worried enough about the numbers side of things.

There was a question asked, in another thread, as to whether Glitterdust affects Golems. Well, it allows no spell resistance, though does allow for a will save (Golems are not good at these, for the most part), and on a failed save blinds targets in the area. Golems do not appear to be immune to blinding, and they do appear to 'see', since they are noted as having Darkvision. So, on balance, I'd have to say Glitterdust would work. It's always been one of my favourite second level spells, now it's even more so...

[Urpriest]

More relevant is the fact that there is no Colossal +++ size category. There isn't even a Colossal + size category.


Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons, as shown on the Epic Dragon Face and Reach and Epic Dragon Attacks tables below.

So the maximum you can get is a Colossal Quarterstaff, for 4d6 damage a pop.

Anyway, True Seeing would be handy for most golems, while Ironguard isn't all that useful since most golems already benefit from high DR, and hence a general immunity to unoptimized melee. It still doesn't solve the basic "can't fly" problem, though.

[CTrees]

With time to think I came to a few more conclusions regarding the validity of a Colossal+++ staff, that do not rely on any 'definition' of what or does not constitute a weapon.

Firstly, size. A Quarterstaff for a medium creature is (roughly 6' long, and has a diameter of 1"). Doubling these figures for every increase in size gives us: Large (12' x 2"), Huge (24' x 4"), Gargantuan (48' x 8"), Colossal (96' x 16")... I'll stop here actually.

A 96' long 'tree trunk' with a diameter of 16" (1.25') has a volume of approximately 376 cubic feet. Once more we're back to...well, that's shrinkable, using the Shrink Item spell, by a 188th level caster, but certainly not one of 5th level. In fact, using the rough and ready figures above the largest staff that is shrinkable, at 5th level, by the spell in question, is the large one (6 cubic feet), but not the huge one (18 cubic feet).

First, I think you're calculating volume incorrectly. h*pi*r^2. By your reckoning, a garguantuan quarterstaff is 48ft long and 8in in diameter (1/3ft radius). This gives a volume of 16.7cu.ft., shrinkable by a ninth level caster. Admittedly, exponential growth being what it is, a colossal quarterstaff would require roughly CL67, and colossal+++ would be CL34,315.

However, there's a problem - D&D's designers didn't take the square-cube law into account. Under "weight," for weaspons, this is listed: "This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons." At least on the SRD, nothing is listed for length/diameter/volume/etc. changes, per weapon size. Thus, we can only assume a doubling of weight per category (which actually makes sense, considering the lack of a relationship between weaponsize and reach). The density of wood varies greatly, but 20-50lbs/cu.ft. encompases most varieties. I'm going with 30ft/cu.ft. for an easy-ish number with which to work. Given that, a colossal+++ quarterstaff, which should way 512lbs (known by the rules), must have a volume of ~17cu.ft, only requiring CL8 to shrink (colossal++ at 256lbs and 8.5cu.ft requires CL5). If we limit ourselves to the published colossal size, that's only a 64lb staff, with a volume of just over two cubic feet.

This is ridiculous, but as I said, it's the fault of the designers not paying attention to the square-cube law. It's also RAW, just like the ability to create these instantly, at wil. The real world tells us that a quarterstaff is similar in height to its weilder, but D&D... does not.

[ericgrau]

Simple, bigger/smaller weapons aren't necessarily the same shape as medium ones. I did the structural calculations a while back and I don't think double or half is too far off, but it's a bit too ideal and runs into problems if taken too far. It should be a little more than double or a little less than half but oh well.

Besides being a bit cheesy, a million flasks of acid or fire shouldn't reasonably do more than total immersion in acid or lava, which is 10d6 and 20d6.

I think we're getting into territory where RAW is a bit fuzzy and RAI is better. And it's not a matter of "RAI says this but RAW says that." The RAW simply isn't that specific and if you want to be a stickler than the real answer you get from RAW is "unknown" or "kinda maybe implies this but there are a lot of assumptions". Falling objects have a bit more of a RAW argument I suppose, though still a bit cheesy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So for absurdity, lets say we were facing a homebrew Golem (which I find to be extremely common around my GM's) with a few things to make said Golem more interesting.
Magic Immunity as Normal
True Seeing
Iron Guard

Is it that much more combat effective? Or only mildly so?

Mildly. The only real differences are that fighters and invisible rogues are screwed. You still have Transmute Rock to Mud (followed up by the reverse) and Transmute Rock to Lava. You still have conjomancers (I like that name :smalltongue:) summoning a half-dozen Augment Summoned creatures to attack the golem. You still have SR: No blasties like Orb of X and even Melf's Acid Arrow (just keep on stacking Metamagic reducers and you'll eventually get something good). You still have "fly above him and create an infinite number of colossal quarterstaffs which automatically drop down on his head" or even just "fly above him and take out that shrunk colossal bronzewood greataxe you always carry".

[killianh]

I forget the name of the spell but there is a spell that basically does what hold person does that is SR:No. Scroll of that + Artificer to drain the EXP out of the thing

[whibla]

First, I think you're calculating volume incorrectly. h*pi*r^2. By your reckoning, a garguantuan quarterstaff is 48ft long and 8in in diameter (1/3ft radius). This gives a volume of 16.7cu.ft., shrinkable by a ninth level caster. Admittedly, exponential growth being what it is, a colossal quarterstaff would require roughly CL67, and colossal+++ would be CL34,315.

Damn, you're quite right. My maths was wrong. :smallredface:

Ok, so a 5th level mage can shrink item a huge quarterstaff, but, still, no more.


However, there's a problem - D&D's designers didn't take the square-cube law into account. Under "weight," for weaspons, this is listed: "This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons." At least on the SRD, nothing is listed for length/diameter/volume/etc. changes, per weapon size. Thus, we can only assume a doubling of weight per category (which actually makes sense, considering the lack of a relationship between weaponsize and reach). The density of wood varies greatly, but 20-50lbs/cu.ft. encompases most varieties. I'm going with 30ft/cu.ft. for an easy-ish number with which to work. Given that, a colossal+++ quarterstaff, which should way 512lbs (known by the rules), must have a volume of ~17cu.ft, only requiring CL8 to shrink (colossal++ at 256lbs and 8.5cu.ft requires CL5). If we limit ourselves to the published colossal size, that's only a 64lb staff, with a volume of just over two cubic feet.

Yeah, however there are printed tables in the base rules that show how height is related to size categories, all the way up to gargantuan, and references to a rule of thumb for a doubling in every dimension. In the absence of a listing for a colossal quarterstaff we have to fall back on the rule that says real-world physics applies. A simplification for low levels of big / small makes the game easier. There is no rule for continuing or extrapolating this simplification for greater scales of big / small.


This is ridiculous, but as I said, it's the fault of the designers not paying attention to the square-cube law. It's also RAW, just like the ability to create these instantly, at wil. The real world tells us that a quarterstaff is similar in height to its weilder, but D&D... does not.

I did read the post about insta-creation, but I feel I missed something tbh. Even if either minor or major creation were being used (neither of which is available to a 5th level character, as an aside, short of having a scroll of it) the volume of material created is half that of the shrink item spell anyway. If it was an attempted abuse of the craft skill then I really have no idea where this idea of instant creation came from, as the craft skill specifies: "The item's finished price also determines the cost of the raw materials." Manually crafting something is always going to take some time. If you're relying on the Fabricate spell (again, not really available to a 5th level caster) the spell states: "Casting requires 1 full round for every 10 cubic feet of material to be affected". Admittedly, the volume affected is 5 times that of the shrink item, so by 9th you can make the gargantuan staff, given 2 full rounds, though the colossal one will have to wait til 14th.

I guess I'm nit picking a bit, time to stop typing...:smallredface:

[CTrees]

I did read the post about insta-creation, but I feel I missed something tbh. [...]If it was an attempted abuse of the craft skill then I really have no idea where this idea of instant creation came from, as the craft skill specifies: "The item's finished price also determines the cost of the raw materials." Manually crafting something is always going to take some time. :

No, you have it right. The finished price determines cost and time. A quarterstaff, club, or sling has zero cost. One third of zero is zero, so they cost nothing in raw materials to make. Time is a longer equation, but short form is any positive craft check is an infinite number of times larger than the zero DC, so the check is an infinite amount quicker than one week. Therefore, crafting those three items takes no time/can be accomplished with no materials. Cost of the three is independent of size, too- it's always zero.

[Vladislav]

I believe we are getting into a territory that would be better suited for the "Dysfunctional Rules" thread. I don't think instacrafting collossal quarterstaffs is something anyone can do in an actual game, RAW notwithstanding.

[Gavinfoxx]

Orb of Acid and other "SR doesn't matter' spells. What? It beats magic immunity, and antimagic field. In 3.5e, Magic Immunity = Infinite SR. Its only in 3.0 and stuff that is unupdated 3.0 sources (including stuff from the SRD) that have magic immunity that goes further. Remember magic immunity was specifically nerfed in the transition to 3.5e... wotc just missed a few bits here and there.

[Kansaschaser]

Damn, you're quite right. My maths was wrong. :smallredface:

Ok, so a 5th level mage can shrink item a huge quarterstaff, but, still, no more.


A Medium Sized Quarterstaff = 4 pounds
Each size category that you increase doubles the weight.

Large = 8 pounds
Huge = 16 pounds
Gargantuan = 32 pounds
Colossal = 64 pounds
Colossal+ = 128 pounds
Colossal++ = 256 pounds

1 cubic foot of wood is (on average depending on type of wood) weighs 26 pounds.

So, a Colossal++ Quarterstaff would only take up about 10 cubic feet. Just enough for a 5th level caster to shrink with the Shrink Item spell.

[whibla]

A Medium Sized Quarterstaff = 4 pounds
Each size category that you increase doubles the weight.

Are you extrapolating from the section on Weight that says "This column gives the weight of a medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for small weapons, and double it for large weapons."? There is a reference to this line in the DMG as well, but neither says anything about weights of items of other sizes. As tempting as it might be to extrapolate, that isn't strictly RAW, and while neither are my calculations based on the size of the items, based on the heights of the various size categories, I'm not sure I'd think that working backwards from the (estimated) weight and density of an item to get its volume is a more sensible approach than simply calculating its volume from its (estimated) dimensions. Doubly so when the estimated weight is based on an extrapolated obvious simplification of real-world physics. Rounding errors, when multiplied, tend to add up (erm...)

At the end of the day I wouldn't allow it in my campaign, and my sense of logic wouldn't let me try it as a player, but if it works for you, and works in your campaigns more power to you. Either way, our personal opinions are not RAW. Interesting ideas, and an interesting discussion though.

[Karoht]

@Shrink Item, Rocks, Quarterstaves
Either way, the solution implied boils down to drop a really really big rock on someone, or hit him with a bigger stick. Got it.

Does anyone else see a little bit of irony in using Shrink Item on a heavy stone statue, then dropping that statue on a Golem? Particularly a stone golem?

[Kansaschaser]

Another way I like to deal with creatures immune to magic when I'm higher than 5th level as a Transmutation specialist...

1. Take 15 adamantine bludgeoning weapons and cast Greater Mighty Wallop on them using the Chain and Reach metamagic. They will now deal damage as a Colossal sized weapon even though they are medium sized.
2. Then cast Greater Magic Weapon on them using Chain and Reach metamagic so they have a +5 magical bonus.
3. Cast Shrink Item on all of them so they are easy to carry. Make sure they all return to normal size with the same magic word. I have a custom magic item that lets me cast Shrink Item at will.
4. I then keep these items on a string and placed in a Handy Haversack.

Round 1
I'll use a Move action to pull them from my pack. Then I'll use a free action to speak the magic word that returns them to normal size. I'll then cast Telekinesis as a Standard action and use the Violent Thrust maneuver to hurl all 15 adamantine bludgeoning colossal damage +5 weapons at the target.

Round 2
If the target is still active, I'll keep using Telekinesis and the Violent Thrust maneuver each round until the target is dead. I prefer to use a Ring of Telekinesis that I have crafted myself or paid to make sure it was crafted by a 15th level caster.

[whibla]

1. Take 15 adamantine bludgeoning weapons and cast Greater Mighty Wallop on them using the Chain and Reach metamagic. They will now deal damage as a Colossal sized weapon even though they are medium sized.
2. Then cast Greater Magic Weapon on them using Chain and Reach metamagic so they have a +5 magical bonus.
3. Cast Shrink Item on all of them so they are easy to carry. Make sure they all return to normal size with the same magic word. I have a custom magic item that lets me cast Shrink Item at will.

Now that is an interesting tactic. It does raise an intriguing question though. Does a weapon with (Greater) Magic Weapon cast upon it count as a 'magical item' (note, I do not say magic weapon, as that's fairly self evident), albeit a temporary one, for the duration of the spell?

Can anyone see where I'm going with this? :smallwink:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Now that is an interesting tactic. It does raise an intriguing question though. Does a weapon with (Greater) Magic Weapon cast upon it count as a 'magical item' (note, I do not say magic weapon, as that's fairly self evident), albeit a temporary one, for the duration of the spell?

Can anyone see where I'm going with this? :smallwink:

...

Like others have said. It's basically infinite SR. Golems are "immune to any Spell or Spell-Like Ability that allows Spell Resistance".

[TuggyNE]

...

Like others have said. It's basically infinite SR. Golems are "immune to any Spell or Spell-Like Ability that allows Spell Resistance".

I suspect whibla was actually referring to the limitation of shrink item to affecting only a "nonmagical item".

[only1doug]

Now that is an interesting tactic. It does raise an intriguing question though. Does a weapon with (Greater) Magic Weapon cast upon it count as a 'magical item' (note, I do not say magic weapon, as that's fairly self evident), albeit a temporary one, for the duration of the spell?

Can anyone see where I'm going with this? :smallwink:

Simply Permanancy the Shrink item on the weapon before casting your temporary enchantments on it (Greater Magic weapon and Greater Mighty Wallop), it can now be shrunk and expanded an infinite number of times.

[Togo]

Not convinced by this. Wouldn't greater magic weapon render the object an invalid target for shrink item, surpressing the permenant shrink item effect?

[only1doug]

Not convinced by this. Wouldn't greater magic weapon render the object an invalid target for shrink item, surpressing the permenant shrink item effect?

doesn't the permanancied shrink spell render it an invalid target for the shrink spell? IMO (and a player should obviously get his GM's Opinion) the shrink spell only cares if the item is magical when the spell is cast. I would argue that the process of Permanently magically enchanting an item (making it into a magic item) would destroy the fragile nature of the permancied shrink item spell but that fixed duration enhancement spells do not.

YMMV

[Blackknife]

Easy. Construct immunity to magic only applies to spells with spell resistance, so I shoot it with an empowered maximized snowcasted energy substitued ray of deanimation, after forcing an elemental weakness on it with a quickened elemental vulnerability spell. If that doesn't one-shot it, then I punch the DM in the groin and go home. :)

Btw, what's a gish, and where does the term come from?

[CTrees]

Btw, what's a gish, and where does the term come from?

A gish is a character which is a melee/casting hybrid (generally arcane). A simple one would be Fighter1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight10. The term comes from a common type of Githyanki warrior, which was exactly that sort of hybrid (dates from the very old school days).

EDIT: LittleBrother is correct on the standard, good gish. Just as not all wizards are created equal, not all gishes are, either. I was just listing one (bad) example, to simply illustrate a concept.

[Little Brother]

The standard Gish(And basically one of, if not the best) is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8(Though really, as long as you time your dips out well so as to not lose BAB, after SE 1 doesn't matter). This gives you BAB 16, 9th level spells, huge saves, and has access to all the important things anyways.

[Blackknife]

A gish is a character which is a melee/casting hybrid (generally arcane). A simple one would be Fighter1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight10. The term comes from a common type of Githyanki warrior, which was exactly that sort of hybrid (dates from the very old school days).

EDIT: LittleBrother is correct on the standard, good gish. Just as not all wizards are created equal, not all gishes are, either. I was just listing one (bad) example, to simply illustrate a concept.

Ah, thank you.

[Rubik]

The rod of construct control from the Arms & Equipment Guide lets you take control of any mindless construct, with no save or any other defense (potentially even from its owner). Constructs that aren't mindless make a DC 23 Will save or you Dominate them.

Yes, this even includes epic colossi.

[Psyren]

Chuck orbs/summons, laugh maniacally, profit.

[only1doug]

I had a Gish which was Duskblade 5 / Wizard 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 6 (at L18, when we stopped playing).

This build was more melee focused than caster side focused but with spells from two classes. All PRC caster advances went to wizard casting (of course).
Having dropped 1 point of BAB (wizard 1) he had BAB17 (which gives caster Level 17 from AB Champ).

The following variant rules were in play: Wounds and Vitality Points, Spellpoints. (the GM and I had to rule of thumb a figure for Duskblade spellpoints).

Standard spells (cast each morning) were Greater Mighty Wallop (on an Adamantine Maul), Heart of earth, air, fire, water (together granting crit immunity), Ectoplasmic armour (i think it was? L1 spell from SPC, grants decent AC against incorporeal).

This PC would make short work of a Golem, hitting for 6d8 ++ damage with each strike.

[Spuddles]

As a Transmutation Specialist, I always carry around a few items that have been shrunk down in size with the Srink Item spell. I normally have these items with me.

1. Colossal+++ Quarterstaff. (16d8 damage)
2. 960 gallons(5ft cube) of Acid. (8,000d6 total damage)
3. 960 gallons of burning oil. (full damage varies depending on environment)
4. 5ft cube of granite (21,000 pounds)

Obviously, I always have them turned into a piece of cloth for ease of carrying. I don't want the acid or burning oil to burn through my pocket.

Round 1: Cast Fly. I don't want to be within range of the Golem as I'm a very squishy character. Then I would move up to my maximum flight speed straight up.
Round 2: Depending on what kind of Golem I'm fighting, I will use one of the above shrunk items. I normally go with the Colossal+++ Quarterstaff or the 5ft cube of granite. I'll pull the piece of cloth from my pocket or handy haversack and hold it above the Golem. Then as a free action I'll say the magic word that makes it return to normal size. The Golem would get a reflex save to avoid the falling object. The block of Quarterstaff would only weigh 512lbs, so it would only cause 20d6 of damage(probably not enough to kill in one hit). However, the cube of granite would cause 840d6 of damage.
Round 3: If the Quarterstaff missed or failed to cause damage, I would then use Animate Weapon (3rd level spell). It would then be a Colossal+++ Quarterstaff that would attack every round for 16d8 damage. If the Granite block failed to strike it's target, then I would have to use the Quarterstaff.

Oh, did I mention that all this damage is easily accomplished by 5th level as a Wizard? Also, everything is free except for maybe the burning oil. Even the Acid is free since it was created with the "Transmute Water to Acid" spell from the Stormwrack book.

You may want to check your math. A 5ft cube is 125 cubic feet. I'm not sure what level 5 wizard could get its caster level that high without consumptive field abuse.

[Kansaschaser]

You may want to check your math. A 5ft cube is 125 cubic feet. I'm not sure what level 5 wizard could get its caster level that high without consumptive field abuse.

Yeah, we already went over this in previous posts. :smallsmile:


Now that is an interesting tactic. It does raise an intriguing question though. Does a weapon with (Greater) Magic Weapon cast upon it count as a 'magical item' (note, I do not say magic weapon, as that's fairly self evident), albeit a temporary one, for the duration of the spell?

Can anyone see where I'm going with this? :smallwink:

I think it would depend on the DM. My DM has stated that the Magic Weapon spell is a "Spell in Place" not a "Magic Item", so that I can still shrink the weapons.

[Spuddles]

Yeah, we already went over this in previous posts. :smallsmile:



I think it would depend on the DM. My DM has stated that the Magic Weapon spell is a "Spell in Place" not a "Magic Item", so that I can still shrink the weapons.

Oh how obnoxious of me. Sorry! :smallredface:

[whibla]

I think it would depend on the DM. My DM has stated that the Magic Weapon spell is a "Spell in Place" not a "Magic Item", so that I can still shrink the weapons.

I confess, I was not being entirely serious when I posed the question. Sorry. :smallamused:

I would count it, or even a spell made permanent through permanency, as an on-going spell, which makes it subject to a dispel magic, and I'd class magic items as something made through use of the relevant item creation feats. I do find there's some grey areas, especially when it comes to dispelling / supressing magical effects and items, but ... pfft, I'm not afraid to wing it if an edge situation occurs.

Again, sorry for my (rather poor) sense of humour.