[3.5] Favored Soul > Sorcerer?

[Thurbane]

What do people think, is the Favored Soul a more powerful/versatile class than the Sorcerer?

The both cast spontaneously, one from the Cleric spell list, and the other from the Wiz/Sorc list. The both get 0-9th level spells, and the same number of spells/day at a given level. The favored soul gets slightly more spells known at any given level, but the FS relies on two stats for casting (Wis and Cha), whereas the Sorcerer only needs Cha (if the FS avoids spells with a save, this is not so much of an issue). The Sorc/Wiz is pretty much universally regarded as a stronger spell list than that of the Cleric.

Being a divine caster, the FS never has to worry about ASF, and with a feat or class dip, can grab Heavy Armor Proficiency. Outside of PrCs, the Sorcerer will always have to worry about ASF, and if he wants to wear armor, will generally need to rely on mithril, Twilight enchancement etc. to keep the ASF % down.

The FS gets d8 HD, medium BAB, three good saves, medium armor proficiency, and simple weapon proficiency (plus deity's favored weapon). Sorcerer gets d4 HD, poor BAB, one good save, no armor proficiency, and simple weapon proficiency. Both get 2 skill points/level, with the Sorcerer getting a slightly better class list to chose from.

Class features - the Sorcerer gets a familiar (which he can trade away for an ACF), and that's pretty much it. The FS gets a handful of class features, most of which aren't that powerful: weapon focus/specialization, energy resistance, wings and damage reduction (the last two come on line too late to be of that much use). The FS gets some ACFs, but not as many as the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer also gets a lot more support in the way of Sorcerer specific feats, and PrCs which are pretty much designed with him in mind. The FS gets far less - without Turning, he doesn't get much love in the way of Divine feats; and also, without Turning or Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, finds it hard to qualify for a lot of divine based PrCs (there is an online ACF which lets the FS swap Knowledge (Arcana) for Knowledge (Religion).

So what say you Playground, how do the Sorcerer and Favored SOul compare to each other?

Cheers - T

[Little Brother]

In my(Not so) humble opinion, they are basically incomparable. The sorcerer is vastly, vastly more powerful than the Favored Soul. Without some work, I might put Favored Soul in the high tier 3.

Sorcerer has the Wizard list. Wizard list>>>Cleric list.

Sorcerers have things like the Mailman. Favored Soul has a watered-down CoDZilla.

Sorcerer also has Polymorph/Shapechange, so it can out-tank the Favored Soul when it comes to it.

Sorcerer is just, overall, vastly superior to the Favored Soul.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Sorcerer can get a Runestaff to greatly expand his spells known, Favored Soul has no such built-in option. (FS can UMD a Runestaff.) There are tricks to get your Sorcerer spellcasting above your character level, whether via Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (+1 level), Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake (+2 levels), or the White Dragonspawn template with LA buyoff (+1 level, available to any nondragon race).

Arcane casters tend to have better prestige classes in general, so class features are fairly irrelevant. FS has to prestige into Sacred Exorcist or multiclass to gain Turn Undead to benefit from the best options available to divine casters. A Sorcerer can take Arcane Preparation to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor, an option unavailable to the FS, so the Sorcerer actually has better defenses in all categories except HP totals and base saves.

Looking at what each class does, there's not really any reason for a divine caster to be spamming spells in combat, so the spells/day advantage of FS over Cleric is not worth the limited spell list. A Sorcerer can pick a variety of spells, and put what's only going to be cast a few times each day on a Runestaff, and he's just as capable as a Wizard most days other than the later access to spell levels.

[Draz74]

I'd still give the edge to the Sorcerer, once you include action economy-breaking Sorc-only spells and so forth. But I'll grant you it's a very tough comparison -- I had forgotten that FS's get more Spells Known. (Do Knowstones specify arcane spells, btw, or can the FS use them too?)


Sorcerers Incantatrixes have things like the Mailman.

FTFY.

[Little Brother]

I'd still give the edge to the Sorcerer, once you include action economy-breaking Sorc-only spells and so forth. But I'll grant you it's a very tough comparison -- I had forgotten that FS's get more Spells Known. (Do Knowstones specify arcane spells, btw, or can the FS use them too?)



FTFY.Two things: One, PrC entry does add power to a class, but two, and more importantly, Arcane Fusion, GAF, and Arcane Spellsurge.

And Knowstones are arcane, pretty sure.

[Thurbane]

Knowstones aren't arcane only, they only specify spontaneous casters, and that the spell be on your spell list. A Favoured Soul and Bard, for example, could use the same Knowstone of Cure Light Wounds.

[Gavinfoxx]

I like Mystics better than Favored Souls. But yea, Sorcerer > Favored Soul.

[Khedrac]

I have tried playing a Favored Soul and it was pretty painful (still fun though).
Yes, FS have a number of nifty class abilities - but those push a FS towards melee and they already have 2 casting stats so now they need Str/Dex/Con to survive in melee. This renders their abilities a lot less useful.
The when one looks at prestige classes - Sorcerors can enter most Arcane casting classes, including some wizards cannot.
Favored Souls: most Divine casting prestige classes require Turn Undead to get in - which requires a dip. A surprising number of them (the more martial ones) offer their own casting progression rather than advancing existing - again no use to a FS.

In short, a FS at low level is not too bad, and has more durability than a Sorc, but the further you push it the better the Sorc is (well the worse the FS is).

[Psyren]

Being SAD and having the free domain, Mystic could maybe compete with a Sorcerer. FS is decidedly behind both. There are too many extremely powerful spells that rely on saves (especially at low-mid levels) for the FS to come out ahead from a casting standpoint - they're almost required to rely on no-saves and gishing/self-buffs instead.

[eggs]

It's probably worth noting that any domain access + the Substitute Domain spell can vastly expand the Favored Soul's options for spells known.

But the Sorcerer still tears the action economy apart in ways that the Cleric's spell list has trouble matching. Even with domain spell access, the Sorcerer just has more options to cast multiple times during a round, during other characters' turns, etc., making it much a much heavier hitter.

[137beth]

Being a divine caster, the FS never has to worry about ASF, and with a feat or class dip, can grab Heavy Armor Proficiency. Outside of PrCs, the Sorcerer will always have to worry about ASF, and if he wants to wear armor, will generally need to rely on mithril, Twilight enchancement etc. to keep the ASF % down.

The FS gets d8 HD, medium BAB, three good saves, medium armor proficiency, and simple weapon proficiency (plus deity's favored weapon). Sorcerer gets d4 HD, poor BAB, one good save, no armor proficiency, and simple weapon proficiency. Both get 2 skill points/level, with the Sorcerer getting a slightly better class list to chose from.
Never enter melee as a spell caster. Unless you are polymorphed...which the sorcerer can do much better. The deity's favored weapon proficiency depends on what you select (you might end up becoming proficient with the dagger:smallamused:).

Also, the Sorcerer can get access to a lot more spells with the mage of the arcane order PrC, with the spellpool.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey, a Mystic can very much be statted out as a melee combatant!

Get the Shapeshifter Subtype from race, get the Transformation domain, get exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain, get a bunch of buff spells... good to go!

[Greyfeld85]

Sorcerer any day of the week and twice on sundays. The problem with Favored Souls is twofold:

1. Running on the Cleric spell list, it has far fewer offensive spell choices. A lot of the Cleric's spell list involves buffing or situational utility spells. Clerics get to take advantage of this by being a prepared casting class. Favored Soul, being a spontaneous caster, gets sort of screwed by this. In addition to the MAD they accrue by having their casting split between two different ability scores, they usually end up with a lot of buffers and some utility spells, which pushes them more toward melee-centric builds.

2. There just isn't a whole lot of support for Favored Souls. A lot of divine-themed PrCs and feats have clerics or paladins in mind, while a lot of spontaneous caster PrCs and feats have sorcerers in mind. There isn't much in the way of support specifically for FS, which makes the other classes preferable for most builds.

[dextercorvia]

Favored Souls also don't get the necrotic apprentice trick. The Apprentice: Spellcaster feat hosed them.

[Ghost6442]

yeah Favoured Souls aren't as favoured as they should be...

Has anyone thought of remaking the FS as the paladin was? If not I think it sounds like we should homebrew something!

[sonofzeal]

IMO, Favoured Souls should simply be replaced by the Evangelist Cleric variant in DM #311. It's a heck of a lot more flavourful, and while it starts of weaker it also potentially rivals Cleric at higher levels even without Turning.

Just don't let them go Pantheon rules with Sovereign Speaker... *shudders*.

[Psyren]

Or replace them with Pathfinder's Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) - same general concept (blessed/cursed with the attentions of a higher power whether they want it or not), but much stronger mechanically.

[Ghost6442]

Yeah... the Oracle replaces FS quite nicely...

Hmm...

[Little Brother]

IMO, Favoured Souls should simply be replaced by the Evangelist Cleric variant in DM #311. It's a heck of a lot more flavourful, and while it starts of weaker it also potentially rivals Cleric at higher levels even without Turning.

Just don't let them go Pantheon rules with Sovereign Speaker... *shudders*.Evangelist Cleric? Hm, I have never actually heard of this.

And what do you mean Pantheon rules? :smallconfused:

[kardar233]

And what do you mean Pantheon rules? :smallconfused:

I believe Deities and Demigods allows you to choose a pantheon as your source of worship (like the Greek pantheon, the Mulhorandi pantheon, etc.) and cherry-pick domains from any of the involved gods.

[Psyren]

Just don't let them go Pantheon rules with Sovereign Speaker... *shudders*.

Not sure what you mean - Eberron explicitly follows pantheon rules by default. (i.e. Sovereign Speakers get to pick from among all the domains offered by the host, with a small restriction around keeping their choices spread out across the individual deities or somesuch.)

[kardar233]

Evangelist Cleric? Hm, I have never actually heard of this.

I have just looked this up, and it seems that this is a spontaneous casting Cleric whose Domains go straight into Spells Known.

[sonofzeal]

Evangelist Cleric? Hm, I have never actually heard of this.

And what do you mean Pantheon rules? :smallconfused:

I have just looked this up, and it seems that this is a spontaneous casting Cleric whose Domains go straight into Spells Known.
Bingo. Plus bonus domains as you level.

Compared to FvS, they're more weighted on spellcasting and less on melee. They also have this nifty result of having their spells actually following their Deity's theme, since at higher levels over half the spells known are from their Deity's domains. An Evangelist of Pelor is going to have a lot of healing and restoratives and undead-blasting on-hand whatever they do, but only a smattering of buffs and utility. An Evangelist of Kord is going to have a tone of buffs and battle spells, and relatively few in the other categories. An Evangelist of Boccob will get a whole bunch of divination and abjuration on a platter, and then have to pick and choose a relative minority to cover the rest.

And I like that. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to me, and makes the class as a whole more varied and interesting.


Not sure what you mean - Eberron explicitly follows pantheon rules by default. (i.e. Sovereign Speakers get to pick from among all the domains offered by the host, with a small restriction around keeping their choices spread out across the individual deities or somesuch.)
...which is not a huge problem for Clerics, but for Evangelists? I mean, the class already gets a pretty impressive number of spells known, but they're constrained by whatever domains the god offers. Whichever god you choose, there's a limit on what you can pick up. It's not that big a deal for Clerics because they only get two anyways and are only working off one domain slot of each spell level, making the choice almost inconsequential besides the domain power. But for Evangelists, it's huge. Pantheon rules remove that significant limitation, and Sovereign Speaker gives them truly ridiculous numbers of spells known. You end up with someone with a Cleric chassis (more or less) casting spontaneously off pretty much the best halves of the Cleric and Sor/Wiz lists. It's like an Archivist on crack, without the requirement of having to hunt down all those scrolls.

All of which means that Evangelists are not a good mix with Eberron. Which is fine by my original statement of replacing FvS with them, as the fluff of FvS is pretty darn incompatible with Eberron in the first place.