Wish vs Miracle: Go! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

whibla

2012-06-10, 05:58 AM

Untrue. Asking for a specific type of magic item(Like I did) is within the specific safe withes.

That is open to debate.

I will agree that one of the effects that the wish spells says is possible is to "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magical item", and if your DM is happy to allow the magic item you create to be a Ring of Three Wishes it's only going to cost you 36836 xp to do so. Remarkably, that still leaves you at 19th level, by 3000 xp..you've only lost a single level in wishing for that ring.

Note the if in the paragraph above. So, why might a DM not allow that wish? Quite simply, because of the first entry in the allowable effects, which states that a wish can "duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you." It could certainly be argued, by any 'sane' DM at least, that since wish is a 9th level spell it is not duplicatable by a wish spell, and that would include creating an item capable of casting wish.

To answer the original posted question though, I'd have to go with the majority on this one. Barring a draw (either by one party simply leaving, or through a succession of lucky saves by both parties) the person who wins initiative is likely to win. At this level, and in this situation, binary luck is basically what it will come down to...

Little Brother

2012-06-10, 06:13 AM

It is not open to debate, beyond "DM wouldn't allow it," which doesn't fly in this type of discussion.

And I didn't go for a ring of Three Wishes. I need to abuse my actions for all they're worth. A one-use swift mental action-activated necklace of wish will work better, and be cheaper.

ahenobarbi

2012-06-10, 08:07 AM

Wizard. Cleric can only copy 8th level spells. Wizard wishes for a ring of three wishes. Then a at-will swift-action mental command activated pocket watch of Time Stop.

There. Wizard won.

Cleric (with deity/cause supporting such behavior) can do this. Because Cleric (with deity/cause supporting such behavior) can do with Miracle everything Wizard can do with Wish and more.

Because cleric can do some stuff for free or it can

make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved

EDIT: So "whoever wins initiative"

whibla

2012-06-10, 09:48 AM

It is not open to debate, beyond "DM wouldn't allow it," which doesn't fly in this type of discussion.

Of course it's open to debate, your personal wishes notwithstanding...

And I didn't go for a ring of Three Wishes. I need to abuse my actions for all they're worth. A one-use swift mental action-activated necklace of wish will work better, and be cheaper.

I'd have to say the point is slightly moot, as a single wish on a magical device will still cost you 15000 xp (give or take some small beans) to create. This, again, takes you down to level 19, given the situation as initially described.

The reason I say the issue is still open to debate is because of one of the examples given of a wish that produces greater effects than the simple ones described in the spell, namely wishing for a Staff of the Magi. No reason is given, but I think it's fair to presume that the reason is that a Staff of the Magi is listed (in the magic items section of the DMG) as a minor artefact. Hmm, but what exactly is a minor artefact? Well, they are "...not necessarily unique items. Even so they are magical items that no longer can be created, at least by common mortal means.

In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out the spells required to create such a staff, and the gold and xp requirement to do so. Additionally, the caster level, or creator level, for doing so is the same as the ring of three wishes as given in the DMG, namely level 20. But...the book says it's not creatable by common means, so I guess I'll just have to accept that.

Wait a minute, though! Didn't you just wish for an item that casts a metamagic enhanced 9th level spell?
"A Quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level."
Doesn't that make it a 13th level spell? A quick glance at the epic handbook tells me that a mage doesn't get a 13th level spell slot until the 4th time he's taken the feat "Improved Spell Capacity (Epic)". That's achievable at roughly level 26. Just how common is that? Oh, wait, it even says it right there in the feat header, it's not common at all, it's epic! (If there's a lower metamagic feat for swift casting, at +2 level adjustment then that's doable at a 'lowly' 23rd level, but the point still stands.)

It seems to me that you're arguing that you can wish for something that is more powerful than a minor artefact (based on caster level at the very least), that doesn't exist, per se, in the books as written, yet not suffer any adverse consequences, because of your interpretation of the rules.

Your interpretation differs from mine!

Back to the actual question though, while I've said before that it basically comes down to luck, who wins initiative and so on, I'm beginning to think that there might be a slight leaning towards the cleric, simply because of the granted power of the Death Domain. A no save death attack, with a slim to reasonable chance of insta-killing a mage with limited Con could make all the difference. In reality, if two players were, with no warning dropped into this situation it might just come down to who can be the most immediately creative...though, ofc, that's not a satisfactory answer, because it's not anywhere in the RAW...:smallamused:

sreservoir

2012-06-10, 10:13 AM

because your custom item, even if we accept that it can exist, requires an epic spell to create, it is an epic item; "For all epic magic items other than scrolls, divide the market price by 100, then add 10,000 XP to the result. The final number is the experience point cost to create the item."

since you can spare no more than 20,000 XP on wishes, because to remain at 20th level requires 190,000 XP and you can't cast yourself lower than that bound, and wish has a clause "The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP." -- the minimum cost to create this custom swift-action wish magic item of yours is 25,000 XP plus the XP costs of any wishes which can be generated by that spell.

so no, you can't do that.

Ernir

2012-06-10, 12:26 PM

In an arena setting like this one, Wish is better.

In an actual campaign, where XP matters and the DM gets bothered when the campaign is smashed, Miracle is one of those spells I'd prepare as often as I can, and Wish is one I'd not prepare unless there's a problem I couldn't solve without it.

Jack_Simth

2012-06-10, 01:09 PM

Doesn't exist.
Fine, wish for a mental swift-action ring of wishing(Make it one use or something, to cut costs), use that to make a move-action ring of wishes, and use that to make a free-action pocket watch of time stop. Time Stop. Win.
A couple of problems here....

1) You're making a custom item. The table where you come up with most of the price for that is called "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" for a reason. Epic rules aren't in play, so you don't have 13th level spell slots available for what amounts to a Quickened Wish. Additionally, they have the clause "Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls." There's no hard rule for how to price it to come up with the cost of your self-done Wish.
2) Ignoring that, though, treating the guildelines as "hard" guidelines would say that 13th level spell slot for a "single use, spell completion" would be 13(Spell level)*25(Caster level)*25 gp market, making it 325 base XP to craft, plus the XP component needed for the spell (5,000 xp for a base Wish), doubled for using Wish to make the item, plus the cost of Wish. Your basic one-use ring of Quickened Wish will cost you a total of 15,650 xp. However: Your one-use item is not doing a base Wish! You're planning on using it for magic item creation... which has a different XP cost than does a base Wish, which you must pay out in front. So we have to add four times the cost of the item you'll finally be creating to the cost of that one-use ring of Wish (double for the XP of the first ring to make it, double again for the base wish). As you want that Ring of Wish to make another Ring of Wish of a different variety, there's at least another 21,200 xp to tack onto that (bringing the total to 36,850 xp). And you're wanting that stage-3 ring to make yet another magic item, which will take 8 times the XP cost onto the original. It's very much out of range (unless you're a Complete Divine Web Enhancement Dweomerkeeper or something, but that's outside the scope of this challenge). It's much less expensive to make the pocketwatch directly... but then you're back at problem 1 from a slightly different angle.

Really, it'll come down to two things:
1) Initiative.
2) Attack Rolls / Save Rolls (rays require an attack roll - an easy one, mind - while others permit a save; there's very, very little that will take someone out of the fight that doesn't use one of the two).

The Cleric has a slight advantage in the save department (two good saves, vs. one good save), but there's save-or-lose spells that'll target either save without issues.

The Wizard has a slight advantage in the touch AC department... if the Cleric was built in the 'normal' manner, which assumes heavy armor.

Otherwise, there's enough spells available to either of them to carry the day, so ...

Little Brother

2012-06-10, 01:38 PM

First off, it is NOT quickened. It is a swift mental-action activated item of wish. That is different.

Also, DMM:Quicken on wish. There, Quickened Wishes are still level 9.

An Item using a spell means you don't have to use any components, INCLUDING XP.

Seriously the rules for Wish are not that complicated.

And a one-use use-activated item of wish is pretty cheap. Would you rather me use a one-use item of Gate? Same effect, you know.

ahenobarbi

2012-06-10, 04:26 PM

tyckspoon

2012-06-10, 04:46 PM

First off, it is NOT quickened. It is a swift mental-action activated item of wish. That is different.
Yes, it is. Because we know how to work out how to make an item of Quickened Wish- it's stupidly expensive, but we can do it within the known item guidelines. There are *no* rules that tell us we can make a Swift Activation item of Wish, or how the cost of it may differ from a normal item- this suggestion is entirely into the realm of 'if you want this, work it out with your DM.' That is usually considered outside the lines of an experiment like this because we do not have a DM to appeal to.. just the rules text, and there isn't any relating to this (if you know of some, please do provide appropriate citation.)

An Item using a spell means you don't have to use any components, INCLUDING XP.

Technically true.. but only because the components were already provided at the time of creation. This gets unclear, at best, when you come to spells that can have variable costs. A Wishing item is invested with 5,000 XP on creation so that it can in turn cast Wish. But using it to make another item requires significantly more XP than that. You are suggesting that this XP doesn't actually have to be paid, simply because the item is casting Wish instead of an actual caster; this appears to be an unsupported proposition to me.

whibla

2012-06-10, 05:31 PM

First off, it is NOT quickened. It is a swift mental-action activated item of wish. That is different.

Also, DMM:Quicken on wish. There, Quickened Wishes are still level 9.

If it's different, why are you quoting something that supports your argument that a quickened wish still only counts as a 9th level spell? What, out of curiosity is the rule, and where is it from, that allows you to metamagic spells into swift actions?
Irrespective, the DMG states quite clearly "For example, a caster could...quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level."

Seriously the rules for Wish are not that complicated.

Indeed they are not. Wish clearly states that "When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5000 XP." In other words, 10000 XP for the single wish, plus 5000 XP for casting the wish in the first place, making 15000 XP (plus some small change for the item creation process itself). This would lower your XP to such an extent that you would, if you could spend this much*, drop a level of experience.

*I can vaguely remember a rule on this subject, which if memory serves forbids it, but unfortunately I cannot seem to find the relevant rule in the books, and while I'm pretty confident I'm right I must confess that it could just be a figment of my imagination, or simply just a house rule that we've used for so long that it's merged with the actual rules in my head.

And a one-use use-activated item of wish is pretty cheap. Would you rather me use a one-use item of Gate? Same effect, you know.

Even if it is allowed, and nothing I've read so far has persuaded me that it is, I'd still not call 15k XP pretty cheap.

I have had a few further thoughts about the situation, and in my head I rephrased the situation as "You automagically find yourself in an arena, with no equipment, facing off against an opponent. You have 4 wishes / miracles learnt and no other spells. What do you do?"

Given this situation I think I'd definitely prefer to be the cleric, mainly because of the respective XP costs of wish and miracle, and I suspect my first 'request' would be "Please God make me temporarily incorporeal" (Standard action - duplicates a low level spell such as wraithform, so no xp cost), and sink into the floor of the arena (Move action). After that any actions, of necessity, become somewhat reactive, but I suspect the odds of winning are better with a no save touch attack than with any form of damage that allows a saving throw, given the character levels involved.

There is one hand-waving cop-out however. In theory the first person to win initiative (yep, it comes back to that) could simply say "I wish I win", and if there is a feasible way they could do so, through duplication of a spell effect that I haven't thought of yet, they would, simply, win...

Morph Bark

2012-06-10, 05:32 PM

It is a miracle that anyone thinks we all love arcane vs divine duels. I myself wish for those duels to stop destroying my lawn.

rweird

2012-06-10, 05:58 PM

Pretty much whoever wins initiative, though regardless of what defenses the arena has, both Wish and Miracle can take the caster away from it so if it is a real game, and are both PCs, the cleric would miracle them to the wizard's demiplae, they both reprepare spells and hunt down whoever put them in the arena. With buffign time it also would end up Fully prepared Wiz 20 V.S. Fully prepared Clr 20 which will end in a draw... repeatedly.

Little Brother

2012-06-10, 06:06 PM

Yes, it is. Because we know how to work out how to make an item of Quickened Wish- it's stupidly expensive, but we can do it within the known item guidelines. There are *no* rules that tell us we can make a Swift Activation item of Wish, or how the cost of it may differ from a normal item- this suggestion is entirely into the realm of 'if you want this, work it out with your DM.' That is usually considered outside the lines of an experiment like this because we do not have a DM to appeal to.. just the rules text, and there isn't any relating to this (if you know of some, please do provide appropriate citation.)Rules are clearly there, bro. Look at the item creation rules again.

Or, worst comes to worst, DMM:Quicken.

Technically true.. but only because the components were already provided at the time of creation. This gets unclear, at best, when you come to spells that can have variable costs. A Wishing item is invested with 5,000 XP on creation so that it can in turn cast Wish. But using it to make another item requires significantly more XP than that. You are suggesting that this XP doesn't actually have to be paid, simply because the item is casting Wish instead of an actual caster; this appears to be an unsupported proposition to me.It doesn't. Again, this is very clear in the rules of items. It simply doesn't have to be paid, regardless of whether or not you like it.

If it's different, why are you quoting something that supports your argument that a quickened wish still only counts as a 9th level spell? What, out of curiosity is the rule, and where is it from, that allows you to metamagic spells into swift actions?Dude, I already said it. DMM:Quicken.

Irrespective, the DMG states quite clearly "For example, a caster could...quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level."Complete Divine is a nifty little book.

Indeed they are not. Wish clearly states that "When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5000 XP." In other words, 10000 XP for the single wish, plus 5000 XP for casting the wish in the first place, making 15000 XP (plus some small change for the item creation process itself). This would lower your XP to such an extent that you would, if you could spend this much*, drop a level of experience.So? Plus, we're assuming this wizard doesn't have any number.

Also, your math is off.Use-activated means 50 x spell level x CL, or 7650, plus 25000(5000 from wish, times 5), times .63(Only usable by people with specific skills and class levels, like, say, Wizard and spellcraft), x .9(Fey Cherry Wood, the item can be made out of wood), x .8 for having a bound colossal elemental, or 14,810GP. Divide by 12.5, puts us at an XP cost of 1184, plus 5000, for a total cost of 6184.

So, what were you saying, again?

*I can vaguely remember a rule on this subject, which if memory serves forbids it, but unfortunately I cannot seem to find the relevant rule in the books, and while I'm pretty confident I'm right I must confess that it could just be a figment of my imagination, or simply just a house rule that we've used for so long that it's merged with the actual rules in my head.[citation needed]

Even if it is allowed, and nothing I've read so far has persuaded me that it is, I'd still not call 15k XP pretty cheap.I'd call 6K XP for at-will wishing and time stop pretty cheap, but that's just me.

I have had a few further thoughts about the situation, and in my head I rephrased the situation as "You automagically find yourself in an arena, with no equipment, facing off against an opponent. You have 4 wishes / miracles learnt and no other spells. What do you do?"

Given this situation I think I'd definitely prefer to be the cleric, mainly because of the respective XP costs of wish and miracle, and I suspect my first 'request' would be "Please God make me temporarily incorporeal" (Standard action - duplicates a low level spell such as wraithform, so no xp cost), and sink into the floor of the arena (Move action). After that any actions, of necessity, become somewhat reactive, but I suspect the odds of winning are better with a no save touch attack than with any form of damage that allows a saving throw, given the character levels involved.Then the cleric lost. What the Cleric should have done would be wishing for a maximized, empowered, split, etc etc etc enervation. Wizard loses there, if the cleric goes first. My method lets the wizard win with only minor XP loss.

There is one hand-waving cop-out however. In theory the first person to win initiative (yep, it comes back to that) could simply say "I wish I win", and if there is a feasible way they could do so, through duplication of a spell effect that I haven't thought of yet, they would, simply, win...Nope. Outside of same limits. Turns into "I wish I win [the sun]," Okay, transport traveler into the sun, dead wizard/cleric/whoever tries that.

tyckspoon

2012-06-10, 06:33 PM

Rules are clearly there, bro. Look at the item creation rules again.

*facepalm* Ok. Assume I'm stupid and can't read what is "clearly there". Quote the section that enables what you are trying to do, or failing that link it out of the SRD. What you're talking about is *in* the SRD rules, isn't it? Because as far as I know the DMG is the only book that talks about custom items like this, it was written before Swift actions existed, and those rules were never reprinted or significantly altered anywhere else in such a way as to allow you to choose "Swift action mental activation" as a means of triggering an item.

(Also I find it kind of funny that you chose this as the means you wanted to argue about, considering the much more efficient path for either Miracle or Wish is to replicate a Mailman-style blasting spell and just wipe the other dude off the map. Which means the answer to which is better in this situation is Miracle, because you don't have to spend XP on that use.)

Little Brother

2012-06-10, 06:39 PM

Tyck, you're right. I can't make it a swift-action without Quicken. I can make it a non-action, though. I can live with that.

And, yeah, miracle is better in this case, but if this Wizard doesn't have infinite wishes, he needs them, so my way is best(Also, why isn't this an astral projection. What kind of wizard would be outside in any way that low on spells?

sreservoir

2012-06-10, 07:07 PM

cite hard-and-fast rules which specify exactly the costs to create a custom magic item and the effect of activation action on those costs.

... oh, that's right, they don't exist.

Little Brother

2012-06-10, 07:18 PM

cite hard-and-fast rules which specify exactly the costs to create a custom magic item and the effect of activation action on those costs.

... oh, that's right, they don't exist.Yes they do. Try again. The rules are very clear and very specific on how to make custom items.

Care to try again?

Invader

2012-06-10, 07:38 PM

Absolutely the only thing that's going to determine who wins the fight is who wins the initiative.

Both spells are so powerful and varied in their uses that you can come up with a 100 ways for each to win with only one casting.

sreservoir

2012-06-10, 07:59 PM

Yes they do. Try again. The rules are very clear and very specific on how to make custom items.

Care to try again?

one might note that there are no rules on creating custom items. there are guidelines, to be certain, but they are consistently referred to as guidelines.

unless you see other rules, in which case cite them. you have not cited any rules to support your assertions.

Little Brother

2012-06-10, 08:04 PM

one might note that there are no rules on creating custom items. there are guidelines, to be certain, but they are consistently referred to as guidelines.

unless you see other rules, in which case cite them. you have not cited any rules to support your assertions.Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), unless there's some magic invisitext saying "lol these don't apply, ignore them lol," which I an not seeing.

Jack_Simth

2012-06-11, 07:36 AM

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), unless there's some magic invisitext saying "lol these don't apply, ignore them lol," which I an not seeing.
So... you're not seeing the part where it says "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values", or the section that reads "Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.", and you're not noting that the section in the SRD you're looking at came out of the DMG, which is not intended for player use?

137beth

2012-06-11, 06:26 PM

It is a miracle that anyone thinks we all love arcane vs divine duels. I myself wish for those duels to stop destroying my lawn.

Unfortunately for you, that would mean you used your turn on a Wish that didn't destroy the cleric, and so it is now his turn to kill you.

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 06:32 PM

So... you're not seeing the part where it says "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values", or the section that reads "Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."Okay. Those those exceptions are, you know, EXCEPTIONS. Those are the rules. Rules with exceptions but still, you know, rules.

and you're not noting that the section in the SRD you're looking at came out of the DMG, which is not intended for player use?Oh, geez, thanks for informing me that the Arcane Trickster, Loremaster, and Duelist weren't intended for players. Never would have guessed.

ahenobarbi

2012-06-11, 06:42 PM

And, yeah, miracle is better in this case

:smallcool:

whibla

2012-06-11, 07:45 PM

Rules are clearly there, bro. Look at the item creation rules again...
...Also, your math is off.Use-activated means 50 x spell level x CL, or 7650, plus 25000(5000 from wish, times 5), times .63(Only usable by people with specific skills and class levels, like, say, Wizard and spellcraft), x .9(Fey Cherry Wood, the item can be made out of wood), x .8 for having a bound colossal elemental, or 14,810GP. Divide by 12.5, puts us at an XP cost of 1184, plus 5000, for a total cost of 6184.

Absolutely nothing wrong with my maths, as I hadn't even factored in the trivial cost of creating the magic ring in the first place. The Forge Ring feat says: "Some rings incur extra costs in materials components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. For example a ring of three wishes costs 15000XP in addition to costs derived from it's base price (as many XP as it costs to cast wish three times). You must pay such a cost to forge a ring..."
Since wish specifies that the XP cost in casting the spells to create a magic item is double the XP cost of the item, in addition to the 5000 to cast the wish my figure of 15000 XP (plus some small change) to wish for a ring of one wish stands.

So? Plus, we're assuming this wizard doesn't have any number.

Well, you might have been assuming that, but the original post in the thread, the one that posited the situation clearly stated the the characters have 210000 XP each.

So, what were you saying, again?

I was saying that it can't be done ... but tbh I've grown rather disillusioned with this digression from the actual, original, question.

Just as a final humorous (to me anyway) thought though, just how long does it take you to say "I wish for a thought activated, swift action ring of one wish, made from Fey Cherry Wood, usable only by mages with 20 ranks of spellcraft, partially powered by a bound colossal elemental"?

moritheil

2012-06-11, 07:52 PM

Okay. Those those exceptions are, you know, EXCEPTIONS. Those are the rules. Rules with exceptions but still, you know, rules.

Uh, a bit of an aside here, really. You're assuming that the rules hold because that's the 3.x player mentality: the social contract between player and DM is that the rules have to be something that can be relied on, the DM can't negate them without very good reasons, and players ought to be informed of house rules beforehand. (I say 3.x as assumed player rules knowledge and DM responsibility to not change the rules was not the case in a lot of 1e games.)

What they are saying the text about item creation guidelines means, in that context, is that the rules for that are not a reliable bedrock in the way that, say, RAW grapple rules are a reliable bedrock. In effect, "We can't stop here, this is houserule territory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8gAtTxWhUY)."

Really this is a metagame issue which suddenly has bearing on this arena fight only because of the weird way the fight starts. Most campaigns run with the DM approving all magic item creation beforehand, thereby avoiding this sort of weird mid-fight dispute about magic item creation validity.

Side question - I get the logic for most of the other stuff, but where's the ".8 for having a bound elemental" from?

Oh, geez, thanks for informing me that the Arcane Trickster, Loremaster, and Duelist weren't intended for players. Never would have guessed.

I think we should all calm down a bit here. It's possible to view those you argue against as stubbornly opposed to RAW but it's also equally possible to view you as needlessly snarky.

Jack_Simth

2012-06-11, 07:57 PM

Okay. Those those exceptions are, you know, EXCEPTIONS. Those are the rules. Rules with exceptions but still, you know, rules.No, they're guidelines intended for DM use, with lots of notes to them about "these don't line up in all cases". Consider the classic, a use-activated, slotless item of True Strike: 4,000 gp, for something that's on par with a +10 sword (at least, in the hands of someone with Power Attack, anyway).

Or, if you'd prefer, there's the note in the scroll tables for Permanency & Miracle about XP costs that you might want to read, which would also put a nix on Wishing up a one-use item of Wish which you then use to Wish for more Wishes.

Oh, geez, thanks for informing me that the Arcane Trickster, Loremaster, and Duelist weren't intended for players. Never would have guessed.
Have you read the 3.5 DMG Prestige class header? Especially the paragraph beginning "We encourage you, as the DM..."

[citation needed]
Granted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components):
XP Cost (XP)

Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds. (emphasis added)

whibla

2012-06-11, 08:02 PM

[citation needed]

PHB, pg. 88, under the section headed Item Creation Feats: "A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level."

Any further questions?

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 08:22 PM

Absolutely nothing wrong with my maths, as I hadn't even factored in the trivial cost of creating the magic ring in the first place. The Forge Ring feat says: "Some rings incur extra costs in materials components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. For example a ring of three wishes costs 15000XP in addition to costs derived from it's base price (as many XP as it costs to cast wish three times). You must pay such a cost to forge a ring..."
Since wish specifies that the XP cost in casting the spells to create a magic item is double the XP cost of the item, in addition to the 5000 to cast the wish my figure of 15000 XP (plus some small change) to wish for a ring of one wish stands.Okay, make it a wondrous item. Problem solved, though, given the price, I would still have the XP to blow on it.

And your math is wrong. Double-check my math. It is correct. The 5000 from it being a wish is what makes it 6.1K. Just crafting it would be 500 XP.

Well, you might have been assuming that, but the original post in the thread, the one that posited the situation clearly stated the the characters have 210000 XP each.Which is plenty for what I just did. Your point?

Just as a final humorous (to me anyway) thought though, just how long does it take you to say "I wish for a thought activated, swift action ring of one wish, made from Fey Cherry Wood, usable only by mages with 20 ranks of spellcraft, partially powered by a bound colossal elemental"?You don't have to. All you have to say is "Wish."

Uh, a bit of an aside here, really. You're assuming that the rules hold because that's the 3.x player mentality: the social contract between player and DM is that the rules have to be something that can be relied on, the DM can't negate them without very good reasons, and players ought to be informed of house rules beforehand. (I say 3.x as assumed player rules knowledge and DM responsibility to not change the rules was not the case in a lot of 1e games.)Yeah. The rules are the rules for a reason.

What they are saying the text about item creation guidelines means, in that context, is that the rules for that are not a reliable bedrock in the way that, say, RAW grapple rules are a reliable bedrock. In effect, "We can't stop here, this is houserule territory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8gAtTxWhUY)."They are reliable. They hold unless contradicted. That's what it means.

Really this is a metagame issue which suddenly has bearing on this arena fight only because of the weird way the fight starts. Most campaigns run with the DM approving all magic item creation beforehand, thereby avoiding this sort of weird mid-fight dispute about magic item creation validityThey are rules unless contradicted, so they'd hold unless the DM said "No," ahead of time. You should clear it, but you shouldn't have to.

Side question - I get the logic for most of the other stuff, but where's the ".8 for having a bound elemental" from?Bind Elemental is from ECS, the rules on binding in and of themselves are from Magic of Eberron.

I think we should all calm down a bit here. It's possible to view those you argue against as stubbornly opposed to RAW but it's also equally possible to view you as needlessly snarky.I am perfectly calm. Is there something wrong with pointing out a gaping hole in reasoning?

No, they're guidelines intended for DM use, with lots of notes to them about "these don't line up in all cases". Consider the classic, a use-activated, slotless item of True Strike: 4,000 gp, for something that's on par with a +10 sword (at least, in the hands of someone with Power Attack, anyway). Uh, no. A +10 sword is infinitely superior.

And anyways, that's the rules. Same as you can get a 1/day item of mindblank for, what, under 50K. The rules are the rules. Period. If your DM overrules that, fine. Good for him. But his rules do not apply online. THE rules apply online.

Have you read the 3.5 DMG Prestige class header? Especially the paragraph beginning "We encourage you, as the DM..."Okay, good to know. Remind me to tell my Arcane Archer PC that, since all the rules for PrCs are in there, he can't be an Arcane Archer, and he's gonna lose his level of Deepwood Sniper. And the Barbarian is gonna be pissed when he finds out Amulets of Health are for the DM only...

Especially since I can see no rules forbidding the use of them... :smallconfused:
EDIT:
PHB, pg. 88, under the section headed Item Creation Feats: "A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level."

Any further questions?Yep. Where in the name of the Burning Hate did you get the idea that I'd be stupid enough to try do drain a level's worth of XP, when I could do it EASILY for less than a third of that, and could quite easily get it lower.

Jack_Simth

2012-06-11, 08:53 PM

Uh, no. A +10 sword is infinitely superior.
No, it's not.

Use-activated (no action cost, that way) widget of True Strike gives +20 Insight to your attack rolls.

Power Attack for 10. If you're wielding a one-handed weapon, you're now at +10 attack and +10 damage. If you're wielding a two-handed weapon, you're now at +10 attack and +20 damage. Oh yes, and you ignore miss chance completely with the Widget. A +10 sword, not so much. Sure, the +10 sword gets past DR/Magic and DR/Epic, and has a higher resale value, but that's it. Of course, with the much less expensive Widget, you can keep a golf bag of +4 Bane weapons and special materials to get past any DR you might encounter just as easily. Oh yes, the the bonus from your +4 Bane weapons? Stacks with the Widget (Enhancement vs. Insight).

If anything, the 4,000 gp slotless widget of true strike is more useful than the +10 sword.

And anyways, that's the rules. Same as you can get a 1/day item of mindblank for, what, under 50K. The rules are the rules. Period. If your DM overrules that, fine. Good for him. But his rules do not apply online. THE rules apply online.The rules are the rules, yes, but the sections you're relying on are explicitly guidelines. They're not really intended for player use. They're DM's tools for world building.

Okay, good to know. Remind me to tell my Arcane Archer PC that, since all the rules for PrCs are in there, he can't be an Arcane Archer, and he's gonna lose his level of Deepwood Sniper. And the Barbarian is gonna be pissed when he finds out Amulets of Health are for the DM only...
Again, they're DM tools for world building. If the DM specifically grants access, then yes, they're available to the party. But they're very specifically DM tools for world-building.

Especially since I can see no rules forbidding the use of them... :smallconfused:
EDIT:Yep. Where in the name of the Burning Hate did you get the idea that I'd be stupid enough to try do drain a level's worth of XP, when I could do it EASILY for less than a third of that, and could quite easily get it lower.
Actually, you really can't. There's notes on the variable XP-costing spell scrolls at the bottom of the price listings for them - for Miracle, it's "Assumes powerful request but no expensive material components in excess of 100 gp and no additional XP cost."; for Permanency, it's "Includes experience point cost up to 2,000 XP."; for Limited Wish, it's "Assumes no material component in excess of 1,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 300 XP."; for Wish, it's "Assumes no material component cost in excess of 10,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 5,000 XP."; for Simulacrum, it's "Assumes a creature of 10 HD or less." - it's actually quite clear, there, that if you're making a scroll of a spell, the full components must be made when making the scroll, even on the variable component spells.

When you look at those guidelines that you seem to keep insisting are rules, you find:
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item. (emphasis added)

So you make a one-use Widget of Wish, which requires at least 5,000 xp as a component. You imbue the extra XP for it to happen, spending the 5,000 xp above and beyond the cost of making the one-use Widget of a 9th level spell.

You then try to use that Widget to make a Wish for a magic item. You now have a problem: That form of Wish requires more than 5,000 xp. The component wasn't paid at item creation, so that widget cannot do that form of Wish.

Even if you treat the guidelines as hard rules, your scenario still doesn't work.

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 09:09 PM

If you need a bonus to hit like that, urdoinitwrong.

Exactly. They are rules until contradicted. I see no final arbiter of the rules on this forum saying "Nope," unless you were elected without telling me, so no. They are RULES. Your dislike of them has nothing to do with their being rules.

Nope. Prcs are allowed, unless forbidden. It's actually pretty clear if you read the stupid header.

Yeah, the scroll rules? They apply, you know, to Scrolls. Pro tip: Wondrous Items aren't scrolls. It does imbue the 5000 in the wish. That's why it costs 6K XP. You are trying to apply rules for scrolls onto WI. They don't work that way. That's like claiming a +1 Flaming longsword has 50 charges. It's absurd, and shows a total lack of understanding of the rules.

Care to try again?

nedz

2012-06-11, 09:14 PM

In the light of comments in this thread: I'm going to modify my answer somewhat.

Whoever wins initiative and doesn't screw up their Wish/Miracle.

This includes leaving the other side able to act, well actually this is the point. What you really want is someway of ensuring that the other side is helpless so that you can CDG them.

Given that we have a high level Wizard and Cleric who have managed to get themselves into this position (stuck in an arena without most of their spells) I'd have to question their competance.

In the dim and distant past I have seen wish wars happen, usually when a fight against the BBEG wasn't going quite according to someone's plan. They were always something of a crap-shoot and invariable hilarious.

VGLordR2

2012-06-11, 09:23 PM

I think that part of the problem with this argument is that Little Brother and Jack_Smith are referring to the same thing differently. Little Brother is saying that the custom magic items guidelines are rules. Jack_Smith, on the other hand, is saying that the guidelines are just that: guidelines. He is technically right; the DMG does refer to them as guidelines. However, I have to ask: what happens when a player Wishes for a certain custom item? A neutral, complicit DM (which I assume is what we are dealing with, as always) will flip open the DMG and calculate the cost based on the given item creation rules. While they aren't exactly hard and fast rules, they are the given method of determining item pricing. A DM following the game by straight RAW will use the item creation rules.

moritheil

2012-06-11, 09:36 PM

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 09:41 PM

Lex specialis derogat legi generali.

The guidelines are rules until otherwise overruled by a specific rule. We can see this is the DMG, MiC, etc. They are rules. You cannot deny they are rules just 'cuz you dislike them.

tyckspoon

2012-06-11, 09:44 PM

Whoever wins initiative and doesn't screw up their Wish/Miracle.

This includes leaving the other side able to act, well actually this is the point. What you really want is someway of ensuring that the other side is helpless so that you can CDG them.

Wish/Miracle for a Split Ray Twin Maximized Enervation. That provides you four rays, any one of which inflicts 4 negative levels. That will remove the 4 highest-level spell slots from your foe. Since we're looking at characters with no items and no pre-existing spells, you only have to hit AC 10 + whatever Dex is. For the Cleric, this is probably anything-but-a-1 territory. The Wizard's 1/2 BAB is a little bit worse off, but not by much. A single hit wins you this fight; failure is *possible*, but the odds are staggeringly low. (One of the nastier things to note about spell replication is that Wish/Miracle limit themselves by spell level, not spell slot.. and metamagics explicitly change spell *slot*, but not spell level.)

moritheil

2012-06-11, 09:46 PM

Yeah. The rules are the rules for a reason.
They are reliable. They hold unless contradicted. That's what it means.
They are rules unless contradicted, so they'd hold unless the DM said "No," ahead of time. You should clear it, but you shouldn't have to.

Uh, I'm with you part of the way, but by RAW it says you have to clear custom magic items with the DM, and that the item creation rules are explicitly not existing under the "reliable unless contradicted" paradigm, so where do you get that you shouldn't have to?

I mean, part of RAW reading is that you can't cherry pick the rules or say "clearly the intent is X," right? So if the rules themselves for a section say that this part is not to be relied upon as hard and fast rules, you can't ignore that any more than you can ignore the 5' step rule. Relying on the idea that "overall, the rules hold unless contradicted" is then a matter of applying what you the reader identify as a principle, or in essence an RAI reading.

Bind Elemental is from ECS, the rules on binding in and of themselves are from Magic of Eberron.

OK, I'm not as familiar with Eberron stuff so that's probably why I didn't recognize it. Thanks.

I am perfectly calm. Is there something wrong with pointing out a gaping hole in reasoning?

Only when it's not necessarily a gaping hole in reasoning. Because then it could look like you're misinterpreting the other side's argument (whether deliberately or not.)

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 09:54 PM

Uh, I'm with you part of the way, but by RAW it says you have to clear custom magic items with the DM, and that the item creation rules are explicitly not existing under the "reliable unless contradicted" paradigm, so where do you get that you shouldn't have to?

I mean, part of RAW reading is that you can't cherry pick the rules or say "clearly the intent is X," right? So if the rules themselves for a section say that this part is not to be relied upon as hard and fast rules, you can't ignore that any more than you can ignore the 5' step rule. Relying on the idea that "overall, the rules hold unless contradicted" is then a matter of applying what you the reader identify as a principle, or in essence an RAI reading.Given that there's no DM to shoot it down on the internetz, I am not worried.

OK, I'm not as familiar with Eberron stuff so that's probably why I didn't recognize it. Thanks.No prob. I love some of the Eberron stuff.

Only when it's not necessarily a gaping hole in reasoning. Because then it could look like you're misinterpreting the other side's argument (whether deliberately or not.)What he said was that the "DMG is not for player use," which includes PrCs and magic items, it isn't, especially since he agreed with what I said on it.

Augmental

2012-06-11, 09:54 PM

Care to try again?

See, this is exactly the type of statement that makes people view you as needlessly snarky.

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 09:59 PM

See, this is exactly the type of statement that makes people view you as needlessly snarky.Oh. Sorry.

moritheil

2012-06-11, 10:05 PM

Given that there's no DM to shoot it down on the internetz, I am not worried.

So your answer is that nobody can say you can't do it - which has to be true, as none of us are DM and we can't prove a negative.

But I will note that, while correct, it is a completely different line of reasoning than you were using earlier, which is that RAW it must be allowed. :smallwink: I believe that assertion is what Jack and others were arguing against.

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 10:15 PM

So your answer is that nobody can say you can't do it - which has to be true, as none of us are DM and we can't prove a negative.

But I will note that, while correct, it is a completely different line of reasoning than you were using earlier, which is that RAW it must be allowed. :smallwink: I believe that assertion is what Jack and others were arguing against.This is a RAW discussion, so, yeah, RAW must be allowed.

Ravenica

2012-06-11, 10:23 PM

K I'll be DM

Offlist item, no previous knowledge or research on how to make it, wizard doesn't meet caster level requirements, user would lose level from creation, wish fails, caster receives a ring pop... Unless they roll on 1 on their spellcraft check to create the item, then bad stuff happens :smallyuk:

and all this is assuming they have the material components necessary for the crafting, wish doesn't state that it negates that need :smallamused: hope you have your wallet handy

ericgrau

2012-06-11, 10:29 PM

Wish. More powerful options and more of them listed so there's less ambiguity, and I'd rather have 8th level arcane spells than 8th level divine spells. Sure you can fiat in better miracles, but you can also fiat in better wishes just as easily, if not easier. Both must be within certain limits by RAW, and both have uncertainty if you try to break those limits by RAW. Which ultimately means either the DM or RAW/fluffwise the god or the universe will say "no" to anything greater in power than the listed options or examples. It's not the player's/caster's decision to say "n'uh, you can't tell me what I can't do" just because there's no specific RAW details on an infinite number of options.

In play I prefer miracle because you don't always burn xp which means you may cast it more often without fear of that drawback, but the challenge specifically supplied ample xp.

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 10:45 PM

K I'll be DMSorry, requires a unanimous vote by all the internetz. Otherwise, we're sticking with RAW.

Offlist item, no previous knowledge or research on how to make it,Untrue on both, considering I told you exactly how to make it.

wizard doesn't meet caster level requirements,Untrue again. 9th level spell and all.

user would lose level from creation,Again, untrue. It costs 6100-something XP.

wish fails, caster receives a ring pop... Unless they roll on 1 on their spellcraft check to create the item, then bad stuff happens :smallyuk:Untrue. Was a valid wish, and so cannot be twisted. You're just making stuff up now.

and all this is assuming they have the material components necessary for the crafting, wish doesn't state that it negates that need :smallamused: hope you have your wallet handyUh, yeah it actually does.

This lack of understanding of the rules(Or just not reading my posts) certainly loses my vote, too.

Ravenica

2012-06-11, 11:15 PM

Untrue on both, considering I told you exactly how to make it.
Not sure how you can call it untrue on being an offlist item, really it's a custom item, thats the very definition of offlist. As for research or knowledge, its not listed as something the character is aware of in the first post, ergo its perfectly valid. Unless you can conceive how to create the item in 6 seconds.

Again, untrue. It costs 6100-something XP.

DMG specifically warns against players adding caveates to an item just to reduce cost, again you require a DM approval as all custom creation does. Which you've already decided you can't get

Untrue. Was a valid wish, and so cannot be twisted. You're just making stuff up now. well now, thats up to the DM not you, and since you've already pointed out I can't make that decision, then I guess you can't either right?

Uh, yeah it actually does.
Nope, it doesn't specifically state it ignores ANY creation requirements, therefore RAW they are all still in play.

This lack of understanding of the rules(Or just not reading my posts) certainly loses my vote, too. If you are running this on democracy, I'm pretty sure you've already lost, looks like all the votes are against you so far :smallamused:

Little Brother

2012-06-11, 11:22 PM

Not sure how you can call it untrue on being an offlist item, really it's a custom item, thats the very definition of offlist. As for research or knowledge, its not listed as something the character is aware of in the first post, ergo its perfectly valid. Unless you can conceive how to create the item in 6 seconds.Irrelevant.

DMG specifically warns against players adding caveates to an item just to reduce cost, again you require a DM approval as all custom creation does. Which you've already decided you can't get[citation needed]

Even if that was the case, why does it matter. The item costs that much to make. I'm sorry if you dislike the rules.

well now, thats up to the DM not you, and since you've already pointed out I can't make that decision, then I guess you can't either right?Uh, no. It's based on the specifically listed abilities of Wish.

Nope, it doesn't specifically state it ignores ANY creation requirements, therefore RAW they are all still in play.Read it again. It creates the item, not me. I need nothing of the sort.

If you are running this on democracy, I'm pretty sure you've already lost, looks like all the votes are against you so far :smallamused:The Arbiter and Official Dungeon Master of the Internetz requires a unanimous vote. You do not have it.

RAW is on my side. If you can bring up RAW disputes, I'm listening. Otherwise, I'm done.

ahenobarbi

2012-06-12, 04:10 AM

Little Brother: you say that Wish can not replicate 9th level spell but it can create an item that will cast a 9th level spell as swift action, that ridiculous, broken... Yeah, definitely sounds like a proper application of wish :smallamused:

ericgrau: Miracle can do everything wish can and more (if you choose proper deity/ cause). For easy one: you could request a miracle that would duplicate effects of wish :smallcool:

whibla

2012-06-12, 07:36 AM

Okay, make it a wondrous item. Problem solved, though, given the price, I would still have the XP to blow on it.

And your math is wrong. Double-check my math. It is correct. The 5000 from it being a wish is what makes it 6.1K. Just crafting it would be 500 XP.
Which is plenty for what I just did. Your point?

I'm beginning to think my point should be about comprehension...

Craft Wondrous Item feat says: "Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP...these costs are in addition to those derived from the item's base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item..."

In fact, unsuprisingly, all the Item Creation feats inclue a similar clause in them. The additional XP cost associated with putting the 'large' spells into magic items is unaffected by any shennanigans designed to lower the base cost of a magic item.

Yeah. The rules are the rules for a reason.

Indeed they are, and this is what I (we) have been trying to tell you. And this rule exists to stop (or rather limit) people wishing for items of wishes. This debate has certainly clarified my thinking on adjudicating wishes. If anyone is daft enough to wish for an item of wishes, and has the xp to pay for it, I see no problem at all...

After all, what you have effectively suggested you'd do in the original situation is spend your first standard action wishing for a ring of one wish, costing you over 15k xp. You now have exactly the same number of wishes you had before, used your action, and have less xp. I fail to see the benefit, I have to say...

EDIT:Yep. Where in the name of the Burning Hate did you get the idea that I'd be stupid enough to try do drain a level's worth of XP, when I could do it EASILY for less than a third of that, and could quite easily get it lower.

Because despite the rules I've quoted to you you insist on repeating basically the same thing over and over again "But I can do it", whilst conveniently ignoring the one teeny weeny important rule that says that, anyway you cut it, you need to pay the base xp costs of the spell, in addition to the base item creation xp costs, when you create the item. All the while repeating "rules are rules".

Is it time to give up now?

Little Brother

2012-06-12, 09:18 AM

I'm beginning to think my point should be about comprehension...

Craft Wondrous Item feat says: "Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP...these costs are in addition to those derived from the item's base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item..."Good thing that was factored into the cost, if you'll note. But that would involve reading my posts...

In fact, unsuprisingly, all the Item Creation feats inclue a similar clause in them. The additional XP cost associated with putting the 'large' spells into magic items is unaffected by any shennanigans designed to lower the base cost of a magic item.[citation needed]

Indeed they are, and this is what I (we) have been trying to tell you. And this rule exists to stop (or rather limit) people wishing for items of wishes. This debate has certainly clarified my thinking on adjudicating wishes. If anyone is daft enough to wish for an item of wishes, and has the xp to pay for it, I see no problem at all...

After all, what you have effectively suggested you'd do in the original situation is spend your first standard action wishing for a ring of one wish, costing you over 15k xp. You now have exactly the same number of wishes you had before, used your action, and have less xp. I fail to see the benefit, I have to say...Nope. You can make a use-activated item a non-action. And, once again, 6000 XP. Basic mathematics and all.

Because despite the rules I've quoted to you you insist on repeating basically the same thing over and over again "But I can do it", whilst conveniently ignoring the one teeny weeny important rule that says that, anyway you cut it, you need to pay the base xp costs of the spell, in addition to the base item creation xp costs, when you create the item. All the while repeating "rules are rules".

Is it time to give up now?Uh, no. Try again. You're pulling a rule out of nowhere. You need to pay the XP cost., you know, IN GP(And then 1/25 in XP). Which is part of the GP cost. Which means, you know, you only need to pay 2/5 of the XP cost. You know, before price reducers.

I fail to see what is so difficult about this beyond not liking RAW.

whibla

2012-06-12, 10:27 AM

Good thing that was factored into the cost, if you'll note. But that would involve reading my posts...

I did read your posts. Are you sure you're reading mine? The calculation you labouriously drew up is pretty clearly from the tables designed to calculate the Base Cost of magic items. As the quote I gave said, the bit you bolded yet somehow ignored (or felt it didn't appply for some mystical hand waving reason) you must pay any XP cost involved in casting the spell in addition to the base cost of the item.

[citation needed]

In what way is a citation needed? Which bit of the section headed "Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Values" which specifically relates only to the costs associated with the item generated from Table 7-33 (the table you drew your numbers from) gives you the idea that you can simply ignore any other costs associated with creating the item, when those other rules are equally quite specific?

I fail to see what is so difficult about this beyond not liking RAW.

Indeed! I fail to see what is so difficult about this too...

Either way, if you still feel you can ignore the rules you do not like, I guess the most I can do is agree to disagree with you. The rules are (relatively) clear, though obviously not clear enough for all...

Little Brother

2012-06-12, 11:06 AM

Let's assume you are right, just for a moment. You are very deftly ignoring the fact that I still have plenty of XP to burn. 11K instead of 6? I can live with this. However,

...A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
...
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
...
When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.Wish creates the item, not you. Key distinction, which is why you don't, for example, need the feats.

And, the part of the Craft Wondrous Item feat you're referring to: You're ignoring something important

...Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one.Yeah, I see no description in the custom magic item saying it costs extra. Do you?

The Frank One

2012-06-12, 11:39 AM

Let's assume you are right, just for a moment. You are very deftly ignoring the fact that I still have plenty of XP to burn. 11K instead of 6? I can live with this. However,
Wish creates the item, not you. Key distinction, which is why you don't, for example, need the feats.

And, the part of the Craft Wondrous Item feat you're referring to: You're ignoring something important
Yeah, I see no description in the custom magic item saying it costs extra. Do you?

The problem with this whole stupid argument is that you are trying to argue an abusive use of item creation rules, that gets you nothing more than you had in the first place. I'm really not sure what your reasoning for it is, since you could just cast wish to do more than the item could anyways.

You seem to think that the power limitations inherent in scrolls of wish and miracle do not count against a wonderous item following the same XP cost creation formulas which is just an irrational and obtuse reading of the rules. There is obviously an implicit statement of the limitations of wish and miracle in relation to magic items found in the scroll lists.

When I ran the "combat" (read: rolled two d20s and added init) the wizard won with his awesome +6 to init rather than the clerics sad +4 (imp init and diff in dex bonuses) Since as many people have pointed out, winning is a meta-magicked enervation away.

Little Brother

2012-06-12, 11:45 AM

The problem with this whole stupid argument is that you are trying to argue an abusive use of item creation rules, that gets you nothing more than you had in the first place. I'm really not sure what your reasoning for it is, since you could just cast wish to do more than the item could anyways. What do you mean? A use-activate item can be activated as a non-action, and can get more wishes for free.

You seem to think that the power limitations inherent in scrolls of wish and miracle do not count against a wonderous item following the same XP cost creation formulas which is just an irrational and obtuse reading of the rules. There is obviously an implicit statement of the limitations of wish and miracle in relation to magic items found in the scroll lists. No, it's the only reading of the, you know, rules. The rules for scrolls are completely irrelevant to the rules for WI.

When I ran the "combat" (read: rolled two d20s and added init) the wizard won with his awesome +6 to init rather than the clerics sad +4 (imp init and diff in dex bonuses) Since as many people have pointed out, winning is a meta-magicked enervation away.How do you get that? +4 from Hummingbird, +20 or higher from 24 hour, or close enough, buffs. The wizards should, like, never lose initiative.

The Frank One

2012-06-12, 12:14 PM

You splitting up what I said messes with the quote function so I will use what I know is a futile argument and make some quick correlations before I have to leave.

The magic item creation rules are clearly listed as "guidelines" not "rules" as others have pointed out and you have ignored. It is reasonable to assume that they are not complete and that they are not to be regarded in the same way that i.e. grappling is.

The items that you have referenced do not go above and beyond the limitations of other items such as scrolls. It comments on "additional prerequisites" which would be a specific over general case. That is in regards to item creation though. Not the limitations of item powers. The closest thing we have to that for a guideline are the capabilities of scrolls, which include a limitations based on the formulas for item creation that they share. It is an obvious conclusion that items created along the same cost formulas should share similiar limitations at the upper bounds of their powers. It would still be a use-activated item of whish with no special prerequisites, just not one that can reach the upper bounds of those spells capabilities.

Proving that the "rules" are explicitly guidelines is pretty easy.

"Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all."

The item in question can be use activated as a standard or free action but the price would not change with a strict reading. You have wandered in an area that clearly does not function with RAW and was never intended to contain hard and fast rules while trying to argue RAW and abuse the "rules" as much as possible.

Also my wizard had a +6 init because I felt like him having +6. Plus, it was clearly implied he shouldn't have buffs on, maybe a permanent spell, but anything else is just being obtuse again in favor of munchkinnery.

TLDR: Just because there are no special "prerequisites" does not mean you can ignore the implied upper limit of power on magic items with a hand wavy claim of irrelevance, it is simply an obvious application of the wish spell and relevant item creation formulas on magic items. A general rule that is only explicitly listed in scrolls is still a general rule.

Little Brother

2012-06-12, 12:33 PM

Seriously?

They are guidelines, meaning they can be overruled, and are not entirely accurate, like with some of the Magic Items in the DMG/MiC. Otherwise, they are rules. Period.

Yes, it can be made a free action with no price change. Therefore, I elected to make it free-action activated. It's not that complicated.

The paying of XP for the spell cast by a scroll are for scrolls only, as they are in the scroll section, and are, you know, explicitly stated for scrolls. Last I checked, Wondrous Items aren't scrolls. If this has changed recently, I was not informed.

TLDR: If there are no prerequisites, then there are no prerequisites, so I can go as high-power as the rules allow. And a specific rule on scrolls only applies to scrolls.

Wrathof42

2012-06-12, 01:07 PM

Wow, what an interesting way for this conversation to go. I must say that all things being equal in an arena style situation wish is just slightly more powerful if only because it comes with less ambiguous strings attached and capabilities. That said as everyone responding to the initial post has already stated, it's a mote point as it comes down to initiative with both of the spells being an easy insta-win. As far as the whole side-track goes, RAW item creation via wish is stupidly powerful. Therefore it's best to just get around it no hassles and just get something to wish for you as an SLA eliminating the component cost entirely.

whibla

2012-06-12, 01:23 PM

Yeah, I see no description in the custom magic item saying it costs extra. Do you?

Yes. General rules covering Item Creation feats:
"Some magic items similarly incur extra costs in materials components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. For example, a ring of three wishes costs 15,000 XP in addition to it's normal price (as many XP as it costs to cast wish three times)."

Carry on arguing all you like that your 'Underpants of one wish' somehow do not follow this example, and the exta 5000 XP (the cost to cast a single wish) required to create them isn't really needed, but I strongly suspect that anyone else reading this thread will see through that hand-waving in very short order.

Just as a final note, and really, this is going to be my last comment in this thread: I'm curious as to how you can justify ruling out anything that requires DM intervention, or a DM judgement call when anyone else mentions it, yet happily create a custom magic item, which by its very definition requires DM approval?

Tyndmyr

2012-06-12, 01:28 PM

Seriously?

They are guidelines, meaning they can be overruled, and are not entirely accurate, like with some of the Magic Items in the DMG/MiC. Otherwise, they are rules. Period.

No...guidelines and rules are not quite the same thing at all. Rules, you can assume are in play as is. Guidelines are more like a bunch of suggestions.

Fitz10019

2012-06-12, 01:33 PM

"Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. "

If you wish for an existing item, you may expect your wish to be granted immediately (although the owner might come looking for you via Locate Object). If you wish for a custom item (a to-date nonexistent custom item), you should have to wait through the length of the item creation process. Nothing in Wish states that the time requirement of magic item creation is eliminated.

So this never-before-existing swift-action Timestop pocketwatch magic item would take a few months to appear. By that time, you've wasted your standard action and the opponent has crushed you with a no-tedious-debate-needed Miracle.

So if we take magic item creation off the table, and in the spirit of the OP's OP, what effect should the initiative-winning wizard wish for?

Tyndmyr

2012-06-12, 01:43 PM

So if we take magic item creation off the table, and in the spirit of the OP's OP, what effect should the initiative-winning wizard wish for?

The lethal effect of choice. Neither caster has buffs up, so this isn't actually that big a deal.

Karoht

2012-06-12, 02:09 PM

Another way to look at this is, if only one person in the party could have either Wish OR Miracle, which would you take?

tyckspoon

2012-06-12, 02:55 PM

Another way to look at this is, if only one person in the party could have either Wish OR Miracle, which would you take?

Miracle, largely because not having to spend XP on every casting lets you use it as a utility spell in ways you can't justify burning a Wish on.

(Of course, the correct answer to "Wish or Miracle?" for a Wizard is actually "Shapechange.")

Little Brother

2012-06-12, 07:29 PM

Yes. General rules covering Item Creation feats:
"Some magic items similarly incur extra costs in materials components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. For example, a ring of three wishes costs 15,000 XP in addition to it's normal price (as many XP as it costs to cast wish three times)."

Carry on arguing all you like that your 'Underpants of one wish' somehow do not follow this example, and the exta 5000 XP (the cost to cast a single wish) required to create them isn't really needed, but I strongly suspect that anyone else reading this thread will see through that hand-waving in very short order.It doesn't say a wish item costs it, it says a Ring of Three Wishes costs that. That has no bearing on my item.

Just as a final note, and really, this is going to be my last comment in this thread: I'm curious as to how you can justify ruling out anything that requires DM intervention, or a DM judgement call when anyone else mentions it, yet happily create a custom magic item, which by its very definition requires DM approval?Because it is the rules until the DM disallows it. Thus, with no DM to disallow it, it is the rule. Simple.

No...guidelines and rules are not quite the same thing at all. Rules, you can assume are in play as is. Guidelines are more like a bunch of suggestions.Exactly. It's suggesting the DM might want to watch it, eyeball some things. No DM=RAW is followed.

If you wish for an existing item, you may expect your wish to be granted immediately (although the owner might come looking for you via Locate Object). If you wish for a custom item (a to-date nonexistent custom item), you should have to wait through the length of the item creation process. Nothing in Wish states that the time requirement of magic item creation is eliminated. The 1-action casting time disagrees with you. You're houseruling, which is fine, but has no place here.

So this never-before-existing swift-action Timestop pocketwatch magic item would take a few months to appear. By that time, you've wasted your standard action and the opponent has crushed you with a no-tedious-debate-needed Miracle. Totally unsupported. Again, you're houseruling, which is fine, but has no place in a RAW discussion

So if we take magic item creation off the table, and in the spirit of the OP's OP, what effect should the initiative-winning wizard wish for?Proof that's the OP's intent?

And the answer is Twin Split Ray Empowered Maximized Enervation.

Jack_Simth

2012-06-13, 07:07 AM

Seriously?

They are guidelines, meaning they can be overruled, and are not entirely accurate, like with some of the Magic Items in the DMG/MiC. Otherwise, they are rules. Period.

As you're fond of saying, [Citation needed]. Where do you get this particular interpretation?

Yes, it can be made a free action with no price change. Therefore, I elected to make it free-action activated. It's not that complicated.

As you're fond of saying, [Citation needed].

The paying of XP for the spell cast by a scroll are for scrolls only, as they are in the scroll section, and are, you know, explicitly stated for scrolls. Last I checked, Wondrous Items aren't scrolls. If this has changed recently, I was not informed.

Actually, no. While the notes at the end of the scroll tables could be construed as just applying to scrolls, the segment where I broke out the full quote box which lays the same thing out? That's from the generic creating magic items header.

Tyndmyr

2012-06-13, 07:26 AM

Exactly. It's suggesting the DM might want to watch it, eyeball some things. No DM=RAW is followed.

You're dramatically mis-representing RAW. Suggestions are not RAW, no more than FAQ answers are.

It REQUIRES DM ajudication. Thus, no DM == can't do it.

This is bog standard TO rules, here.

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 10:13 AM

As you're fond of saying, [Citation needed]. Where do you get this particular interpretation?Because, you know, they are rules. You know, being in the rulebook, and all, plus, you know, not having the header "LOLTHESEAINTRULESLOL."

As you're fond of saying, [Citation needed].
...Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself....Emphasis mine.

There is no listed price increase for making it a non-action(Which it can be), therefore it costs just the same.

Actually, no. While the notes at the end of the scroll tables could be construed as just applying to scrolls, the segment where I broke out the full quote box which lays the same thing out? That's from the generic creating magic items header.Okay, that? I factored that into the cost. You see, it is still part of the price, so is affected by price reduction, and is explicitly stated to be 5GP to one XP, which you'll notice if you would take the effort to read my post. Last post on the first page. Contains all the correct math.

You're dramatically mis-representing RAW. Suggestions are not RAW, no more than FAQ answers are.But these aren't suggestions. They are rules. A guideline's definition is "A general rule or principle." A general rule is a rule until otherwise noted, like, you know, the magic items.

It REQUIRES DM ajudication. Thus, no DM == can't do it.[citation needed]

This is bog standard TO rules, here.We've obviously been looking at very different forums.

Brock Samson

2012-06-13, 10:54 AM

1. How on earth is creating a widget of wishes going to help you any better than actually wishing for a spell that auto-defeats the cleric?

2. Yes, it absolutely comes down to initiative in this battle. Per the OP's intent seems to be they have literally no other spells available/active/whatever, no permanent spells and no 24/48hour duration spells, ONLY the 4 wishes/miracles, you're basically just looking at Dex/feat/racial bonuses. This does matter, as you don't know if the wizard or the cleric might have Improved Initiative, or whether they've taken Quick Reconnitor, or if they're a Gnome with the feat which I think gives you Wis bonus to Initiative. And the Hummingbird familiar is Dragon Mag, so not something to expect in the battle, but a possibility. All these things considered... it depends entirely on the individual make-up of the participants.

3. One of the main points of contention about the widget of wishes seems to be that one person is arguing the guidelines ARE explicitly rules and thus auto-allowed unless a DM says no, another arguing that guidelines are NOT rules but suggested guidelines, and auto-not-allowed unless a DM says yes. Does that sum up that facet of the argument?

4. In my opinion, wishing for a custom item of wishes (an item that does not currently exist in any of the 3.5 books) sure sounds like DM approval to me. Have fun when the DM says YOU'RE NOW A GENIE! GET IN YOUR BOTTLE! :D

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 11:03 AM

1. How on earth is creating a widget of wishes going to help you any better than actually wishing for a spell that auto-defeats the cleric?Because you can turn it into another item, (which everyone with wish should have) which lets you do the same thing.

3. One of the main points of contention about the widget of wishes seems to be that one person is arguing the guidelines ARE explicitly rules and thus auto-allowed unless a DM says no, another arguing that guidelines are NOT rules but suggested guidelines, and auto-not-allowed unless a DM says yes. Does that sum up that facet of the argument?Basically, more or less.

4. In my opinion, wishing for a custom item of wishes (an item that does not currently exist in any of the 3.5 books) sure sounds like DM approval to me. Have fun when the DM says YOU'RE NOW A GENIE! GET IN YOUR BOTTLE! :DCouple points. DM doesn't exist here. Even if one did, that has nothing to do with RAW. The creation rules exist, so the item does exist in the DMG. Also, Genie(Or Efreet, or any other such creatures) aren't stuck in bottles. This isn't Aladdin.

Brock Samson

2012-06-13, 11:25 AM

I'm not sayin the widget of wishes wouldn't be incredibly useful, I'm saying these people only exist to kill each other and then cease to be PCs, so it's extra math for nothing (except for the fun of item creation).

And the DM explicity does always exist, or there is no game. In this scenario, the OP would be the DM unless they default to someone else.

And the guidelines for how to create an item ARE in the DMG, the specific item you're creating is not. I point to the Potion of Enlarge Person that costs 5 times what the Potion of Reduce Person does, in that even in the DMG there are examples of items that don't follow the regular pricing mechanic because the "DM" (in this case the game designers) felt the item to be more powerful than the pricing should equate, so they increased the price.

Just like how the unlimited-true-strike gives you more bang-for-your-buck than the pricing guidelines would allow for, thus no sane DM would allow it.

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 11:48 AM

I'm not sayin the widget of wishes wouldn't be incredibly useful, I'm saying these people only exist to kill each other and then cease to be PCs, so it's extra math for nothing (except for the fun of item creation).The widget of wishes is the superior option, however. I still hold with it..

And the DM explicity does always exist, or there is no game. In this scenario, the OP would be the DM unless they default to someone else.No. This is a thought experiment, really. No DM. Or, if there was, RAW is all that matters.

And the guidelines for how to create an item ARE in the DMG, the specific item you're creating is not. I point to the Potion of Enlarge Person that costs 5 times what the Potion of Reduce Person does, in that even in the DMG there are examples of items that don't follow the regular pricing mechanic because the "DM" (in this case the game designers) felt the item to be more powerful than the pricing should equate, so they increased the price. Exactly. They are guidelines. They are general rules which are, on occasion, trumped by more specific rules.

And, because the item creation rules exist there, the item I specified does.

Just like how the unlimited-true-strike gives you more bang-for-your-buck than the pricing guidelines would allow for, thus no sane DM would allow it.Irrelevant. Rules are rules. Rules are all that matter for this particular discussion.

Karoht

2012-06-13, 11:53 AM

This is the third thread this week that I have witnessed devolve into an arguement about item creation rules.

Okay, back on track for a second.

Say your widget of wishes or whatever is legal. Fine.

Is an item of Wishes better than an item of Miracle?
If you had your choice of an item with just one casting of either Wish OR Miracle, which would you chose and why?

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 11:58 AM

Say your widget of wishes or whatever is legal. Fine.

Is an item of Wishes better than an item of Miracle?Yes, vastly.

If you had your choice of an item with just one casting of either Wish OR Miracle, which would you chose and why?Wish. A wish from an item has no XP cost, so I can wish for a ring of 3 wishes or the like, and Wish-loop. Miracle can't create items.

Karoht

2012-06-13, 12:08 PM

Yes, vastly.
Wish. A wish from an item has no XP cost, so I can wish for a ring of 3 wishes or the like, and Wish-loop. Miracle can't create items.
So because of Wish looping, an item of wish is better. Go it.

My last question on the matter:
In a single casting of wish* or miracle, which one is just better at solving a problem or ending a combat? Lets consider elements such as limitations, XP/Material costs (where applicable), and just the variety of things one could use a single casting of Wish or Miracle to achieve.
Just the straight spell as writen, not modified by any feats or class features or anything of the like. However, the options (both the number of options and the depth and degree of modifications) to modify the spell by such feats or class features does bear mention and consideration.

*While the net return on the initial casting of Wish is definately high, for the purposes of this question we will consider Wish looping to not be a single casting of wish, and instead catagorize it as more than one.

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 12:23 PM

So because of Wish looping, an item of wish is better. Go it.Yep.

My last question on the matter:
In a single casting of wish* or miracle, which one is just better at solving a problem or ending a combat? Lets consider elements such as limitations, XP/Material costs (where applicable), and just the variety of things one could use a single casting of Wish or Miracle to achieve.
Just the straight spell as writen, not modified by any feats or class features or anything of the like. However, the options (both the number of options and the depth and degree of modifications) to modify the spell by such feats or class features does bear mention and consideration.
*While the net return on the initial casting of Wish is definately high, for the purposes of this question we will consider Wish looping to not be a single casting of wish, and instead catagorize it as more than one.Okay, fair enough. I'm going to have to give Miracle the SLIGHT edge. Wish has a HELL of a lot more power behind it, due to the production of items, a better list to access, and otherwise being ridiculously versatile, but Miracle's lack of cost pushes it ahead, just barely.

Karoht

2012-06-13, 12:36 PM

So the big deciding differences are that Wish has more options but Miracle is free. Got it.

I admit that I've never read either spell in amazing detail, nor have I ever played a campaign where I have reached these spell levels. I might be reaching Miracle in the next few weeks with an Oracle, this is good information to have.

Ravenica

2012-06-13, 12:39 PM

You are still pushing your item as RAW? lol

RAW
A spell does what it says. If it doesn't say it, it doesn't do it.

RAW

Wish does NOT say it creates items instantaneously, and without follow all other costs, you are already arguing that the cost of said item is defined by the item creation rules in the DMG therefore it also follows material and time costs as well, not to mention you have to be able to cast the prerequisite spells to craft the item.

Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Material Component
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

relevant portions bold'd. As such you are expending not only the wish, but the additional 5000k exp on the second wish used to create the item and the rather pricey GP requirement of said item as well, it will be ready in a couple months at which time the cleric will have already animated your dead butt and used you for a puppet show public service anouncement about people who think their concept RAI == RAW

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 12:45 PM

Wrong. Wish creates the item within the 1 round casting time. And, yes, I factored the 5000 XP into the magic item. That's why it costs 6184, rather than 11.

It is perfectly RAW, and you are simply making things up because you dislike it. Or you aren't reading the math I did on page one.

Ravenica

2012-06-13, 12:52 PM

nope, RAW a spell doesn't do anything that it doesn't state
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptiveText

Descriptive Text
This portion of a spell description details what the spell does and how it works. If one of the previous entries in the description included "see text," this is where the explanation is found.

You're RAI following of the spells intent does not hold up in a RAW argument

VGLordR2

2012-06-13, 01:07 PM

If Wish still required the material, the time, and the feats to create the Item, why would anyone use that feature? It would double the XP cost, add on an additional 5000 XP cost, and use up a level nine spell slot, with no compensation.

Ravenica

2012-06-13, 01:12 PM

Oh I'm not stupid, I know that is what is INTENDED, but we are arguing RAW, just ask little brother :smallamused:

Jack_Simth

2012-06-13, 05:04 PM

Because, you know, they are rules. You know, being in the rulebook, and all, plus, you know, not having the header "LOLTHESEAINTRULESLOL."

You're taking something that is explicitly listed as "guidelines", "estimating", and "a starting point", and using them as hard-and-fast rules for an ending point. Where are you getting that they can be used that way? Give me a citation.

Emphasis mine.

There is no listed price increase for making it a non-action(Which it can be), therefore it costs just the same.
Okay, that? I factored that into the cost. You see, it is still part of the price, so is affected by price reduction, and is explicitly stated to be 5GP to one XP, which you'll notice if you would take the effort to read my post. Last post on the first page. Contains all the correct math.
No, you're not. You're making a custom magic item that can cast a 5,000 xp Wish (and paying for the 5,000 xp version of Wish), then trying to use that custom magic item to use a form of Wish that would cost much more than 5,000 xp. You don't pay XP when using an item because it was paid at creation - ditto for all other components... but your math assumes you're not paying those components.

Yorae

2012-06-13, 05:49 PM

Oh I'm not stupid, I know that is what is INTENDED, but we are arguing RAW, just ask little brother :smallamused:

nope, RAW a spell doesn't do anything that it doesn't state
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...escriptiveText

And it doesn't say "Casting Time: 1 Standard Action"...?

By that logic, Fabricate has a cast time of several days, depending on what you're doing with it. But it doesn't. It says it doesn't. In the spell text.

You don't pay XP when using an item because it was paid at creation - ditto for all other components... but your math assumes you're not paying those components.

That "because" bit would be RAI, wouldn't it? Unless there's a clause somewhere that says some equivalent "except you do pay it if you weaseled your way out of it during creation". Unless I'm misunderstanding, which is possible. I'm not entirely certain how swift or no-action activation time is being added to the item. If its because of DMM: Quicken, I don't think that works. Crafting an item that copies a spell and casting that spell aren't the same thing.

I really can't figure out why hackles are raised over a goofy TO discussion.... :smallfrown:

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 06:07 PM

nope, RAW a spell doesn't do anything that it doesn't state
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptiveText

You're RAI following of the spells intent does not hold up in a RAW argumentUm, no. The wish produces the EFFECT of creating the item. It does so in its one action casting time. Try again.

You're taking something that is explicitly listed as "guidelines", "estimating", and "a starting point", and using them as hard-and-fast rules for an ending point. Where are you getting that they can be used that way? Give me a citation.They are rules. YOU are the one claiming they are not rule. Burden's on you.

No, you're not. You're making a custom magic item that can cast a 5,000 xp Wish (and paying for the 5,000 xp version of Wish), then trying to use that custom magic item to use a form of Wish that would cost much more than 5,000 xp. You don't pay XP when using an item because it was paid at creation - ditto for all other components... but your math assumes you're not paying those components.Irrelevant. The wish has an XP cost of 5000. That is all that matters. A normal wish costs 5000, so it was paid. I fail to see how this is so complicated.

Jack_Simth

2012-06-13, 06:25 PM

They are rules. YOU are the one claiming they are not rule. Burden's on you.
They're called "Estimating" on the table, "guidelines" in the text, and it even includes that they're just a "starting point". Seriously. You've been quoted you this before. Find a counter-quote.

Irrelevant. The wish has an XP cost of 5000. That is all that matters. A normal wish costs 5000, so it was paid. I fail to see how this is so complicated.
Citation needed. Wish has a variable XP cost depending on what you're doing with it:

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
The rules for making magic items say you must pay the extra component costs of the spell:

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

Ergo, if you use a form of Wish that requires a specific amount of components, those components most be provided.

We even have the scroll table notes for evidence that such is the intent of the writers.

Citation that it's irrelevant, please.

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 06:33 PM

They're called "Estimating" on the table, "guidelines" in the text, and it even includes that they're just a "starting point". Seriously. You've been quoted you this before. Find a counter-quote.Nope. Still on you. Definition of a guideline is "A general rule or principle." You have yet to provide a quote that say "Not rules."

Citation needed. Wish has a variable XP cost depending on what you're doing with it:
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.The majority of the uses cost exactly 5000 XP. Only spells with huge XP costs or creating items cost more. Therefore, the normal Wish XP is 5000.

When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.You were saying?

The rules for making magic items say you must pay the extra component costs of the spell:

Ergo, if you use a form of Wish that requires a specific amount of components, those components most be provided.Which they were. I just used reducers on the Wish item. It's not that hard.

We even have the scroll table notes for evidence that such is the intent of the writers.

Citation that it's irrelevant, please.Because they're for, you know, SCROLLS. The wish item is not a scroll. Do I need to find a quote of me saying it isn't a scroll? Is that what you're asking me for?

whibla

2012-06-13, 07:58 PM

I couldn't resist...:smallfurious:

The majority of the uses cost exactly 5000 XP. Only spells with huge XP costs or creating items cost more. Therefore, the normal Wish XP is 5000.

I do not think anyone is debating the XP cost to cast a 'normal' wish, whatever that is. I'm not even sure that anyone is really debating the XP cost required to cast a wish that creates a magic item (simply double the xp cost incurred in the item's creation plus the cost for a 'normal' wish). Or rather, they're not debating the formula for calculating the XP cost required to cast a wish that creates a magic item.

What we're "debating" is the XP cost required to create the magic item you're wishing for.

I'll try to put this simply. When you look through the spell listings in the various books you'll see that some of them have a superscript x at the end of the spell name. This signifies that those spells have an XP cost associated with them. When you create a magic item that duplicates the effect of one of those spells the creator of that item is required to pay (at a minimum) that XP cost in addition to the XP cost incurred from the base price. We've already agreed that the XP cost for a normal casting of wish is 5000, so anyone creating a magic item that duplicates a wish must pay (yep, you guessed it) 5000 XP in addition to any XP incurred from the base price...

Why does it feel like I'm repeating myself?

I just used reducers on the Wish item. It's not that hard.

Reductions applied to the base cost of creating magic items are quite possible, and in fact you didn't use all the ones that were potentially available to you. I mean: Alignment restriction(.7) x Class restriction(.7) x Skill restriction(.9) x Special Material(.9) x Bound Elemental(.8) = a base cost of only 32% of the untwinked item. But, this only applies to the base cost of item creation, and thus the XP cost incurred from the base price.

I'm going to guess that you're going to respond to this post with a comment along the lines of: [citation needed]. I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you. For someone who clearly has such excellent and broad system knowledge, for someone as intelligent as yourself, I have no doubt that you'll figure it out in time.

If not, let's try a thought experiment, exemplar ad absurdam, if you will:

I'm playing in your world, and you've been generous as a DM, I've reached 17th level as a wizard (with 150000 XP), and I have the wish spell learned. With my first wish, I wish for a (nothing fancy) "necklace of one wish". It's not a standard item in the DMG, so you're going to have to rule on how much it will cost to make. How much XP will this cost me? Will I still be 17th level?
Now, assuming I am*, if I'm understanding you correctly, I can now use this "necklace of one wish" to wish for any magic item, custom or otherwise, and pay no XP costs for it. Ok, so I wish for a "thought activated nipple ring of infinite wishes". My necklace has now expended its charge (sadface). No, problems though, I now use my "thought activated nipple ring of infinte wishes" to wish for a "swift action, thought activated, nipple ring of infinite wishes".

From this point on, I can now cast two wishes a round, one swift, one standard, for..well, forever. And you'd have no problem with this, right? According to your understanding of RAW, I mean...

*I'd just like to add, I do not think I will be able to make this wish, as the 15000+ XP I think I will have to expend to make this item would cause me to lose more XP than I can afford to, and still remain 17th level...

Aquillion

2012-06-13, 09:13 PM

And a one-use use-activated item of wish is pretty cheap. Would you rather me use a one-use item of Gate? Same effect, you know.Not the same. The effreeti you summon rolls initiative; it doesn't automatically act instantly, so making it not require an action to summon it doesn't help (the other person gets to act, and might be able to kill you instantly before your summon can do anything.)

But the main point, as said, is that the magic item creation tables are explicitly guidelines, meant for use by the DM. Unlike casting a spell or using a 'canon' item, creating a custom item from those tables isn't a matter of just choosing something from a list -- the DM is supposed to take those tables into account, then decide themselves what the actual cost is (or whether the item is actually possible). That's why it says guidelines and repeatedly warns that those tables aren't absolute.

Little Brother

2012-06-13, 10:12 PM

I couldn't resist...:smallfurious:Whoa, chillax. Hakuna matata and all.

What we're "debating" is the XP cost required to create the magic item you're wishing for.
[quote]I'll try to put this simply. When you look through the spell listings in the various books you'll see that some of them have a superscript x at the end of the spell name. This signifies that those spells have an XP cost associated with them. When you create a magic item that duplicates the effect of one of those spells the creator of that item is required to pay (at a minimum) that XP cost in addition to the XP cost incurred from the base price. We've already agreed that the XP cost for a normal casting of wish is 5000, so anyone creating a magic item that duplicates a wish must pay (yep, you guessed it) 5000 XP in addition to any XP incurred from the base price...The only passage you've quoted says that only applies to marked items, which this whatever isn't.

Reductions applied to the base cost of creating magic items are quite possible, and in fact you didn't use all the ones that were potentially available to you. I mean: Alignment restriction(.7) x Class restriction(.7) x Skill restriction(.9) x Special Material(.9) x Bound Elemental(.8) = a base cost of only 32% of the untwinked item. But, this only applies to the base cost of item creation, and thus the XP cost incurred from the base price.Huh. I forgot about alignment. That's odd.

And, yeah, it drastically reduces the XP cost.

I'm playing in your world, and you've been generous as a DM, I've reached 17th level as a wizard (with 150000 XP), and I have the wish spell learned. With my first wish, I wish for a (nothing fancy) "necklace of one wish". It's not a standard item in the DMG, so you're going to have to rule on how much it will cost to make. How much XP will this cost me? Will I still be 17th level?For the purposes of this? Not that much if you go through the proper price reductions, and you should be, but I am AFB.

If I was DMing? Hell no. But this is, once again, not a game so much as a RAW experiment.

Now, assuming I am*, if I'm understanding you correctly, I can now use this "necklace of one wish" to wish for any magic item, custom or otherwise, and pay no XP costs for it. Ok, so I wish for a "thought activated nipple ring of infinite wishes". My necklace has now expended its charge (sadface). No, problems though, I now use my "thought activated nipple ring of infinte wishes" to wish for a "swift action, thought activated, nipple ring of infinite wishes".

From this point on, I can now cast two wishes a round, one swift, one standard, for..well, forever. And you'd have no problem with this, right? According to your understanding of RAW, I mean...I have no objection to the RAW of this that I can see, beyond the fact that it is not a ring(nipple or otherwise) of infinite wishes, but just use-activated ones(And if you are making it a swift action, I think it's gonna have to be of Quickened wish).

*I'd just like to add, I do not think I will be able to make this wish, as the 15000+ XP I think I will have to expend to make this item would cause me to lose more XP than I can afford to, and still remain 17th level...

Not the same. The effreeti you summon rolls initiative; it doesn't automatically act instantly, so making it not require an action to summon it doesn't help (the other person gets to act, and might be able to kill you instantly before your summon can do anything.)Oh, hey. You're right. I'd remembered it as if it had functioned like Summon Monster on initiative.

But the main point, as said, is that the magic item creation tables are explicitly guidelines, meant for use by the DM. Unlike casting a spell or using a 'canon' item, creating a custom item from those tables isn't a matter of just choosing something from a list -- the DM is supposed to take those tables into account, then decide themselves what the actual cost is (or whether the item is actually possible). That's why it says guidelines and repeatedly warns that those tables aren't absolute.Exactly. They are guidelines, and thus not absolute, when the DM says they are not. Until then, they are as RAW as the Omnicificer and Drown-Healing.

Callista

2012-06-14, 09:21 AM

What about the in-world complications? They have different power sources. Theoretical superiority is all well and good, but in a game-world, there are other considerations too.

If you're casting Wish, you're a powerful spellcaster tweaking reality to your specifications. You depend on magic itself, and your connection to it, and your ability to figure out exactly what you want and make it come to pass. If you slip up, your spell could misfire or fail. In most worlds, magic is only semi-sentient . It has to be at least semi-sentient for spells to be able to "make decisions" while outside the spellcaster's concentration, but it doesn't really have its own agenda. So, while Wish is a dangerous spell to cast, it's dependent only on your own intelligence and, probably, on your own common sense. (Wizards with 25 INT and 5 WIS casting Wish would be an amusing thing to see... from a very safe distance, of course.)

On the other hand, Miracle is cast by clerics and similar people with connections to deities. Their power isn't their own; they're channels for somebody else. When the somebody-else is a god, the spell has its own agenda in a way that a Wish never will. If you cast a Miracle, the deity you're getting that power from will create the effect in a way that's consistent with their own desires. If Pelor grants a Miracle involving helping people, it's probably going to be fulfilled to the letter and perhaps even more powerful than usual. But try the same thing with a trickster god, and Hilarity Will Ensue. Try that altruistic miracle with a malevolent deity, and it might backfire spectacularly. Given that the gods are involved, I'd probably stay even farther away than I would from that 5-WIS wizard.