Modern Army v. D&D

[Little Brother]

Okay, I was asked by a friend who would win in combat, D&DVerse or Real World. I had no idea, so I wanted to ask the Playground:

The rules were:
3.5 rules
No gods/Epic magic(Yes, clerics still have spells)
No REALLY STUPID rules abuse(IE, PunPun, Twice-Betrayer, etc).
The universe isn't Tippy, probably due to some careful balance between high-powered wizards, a treaty, or some such.
The D&D world isn't allowed to mind control leaders(Though grunts and officers on the line are valid)
No nukes/anti-osmium/Shadow-wraith-wightpocalypse/etc. Both sides would like both worlds intact for pillaging/ruling/etc.
The worlds are RELATIVELY united. People from another world attacking do that. Not necessarily happy, but not going to just backstab each other for teh lulz.
Prime Material plane only, beyond specifically summoning outsiders(Abyssal Army works, but opening a gate to the abyss and letting them swarm)
Terrans cannot use magic. It's genetic or something. Also, the transit through the portal destabilizes the gear enough only people from the other side can fire their guns, or the like(Or come up with some other technobabble excuse).
Modern army got the first strike and does have a base on the D&D side of the portal
Finally, and most importantly, D&D never existed here. No nerds with full information about their rules.

Given all these rules, who wins?

[Sneaky Weasel]

D&D would win. Even without Epic magic, a single 20th level wizard is more than capable of taking on an army, and the number of monsters that would be virtually immune to all firearms through DR or similar is tremendous. Hell, even a low level wizard based on enchantment and illusion could easily infiltrate and assassinate the leaders of a mundane army, basically winning the fight. I might be wrong, but I don't see how the real world would even have a chance.

[Snowbluff]

Friendly fire would be a nice spell to have.

[Little Brother]

D&D would win. Even without Epic magic, a single 20th level wizard is more than capable of taking on an army, and the number of monsters that would be virtually immune to all firearms through DR or similar is tremendous. Hell, even a low level wizard based on enchantment and illusion could easily infiltrate and assassinate the leaders of a mundane army, basically winning the fight. I might be wrong, but I don't see how the real world would even have a chance.See, that's what I thought. My friend, however, is a better optimizer than me, and sounded unsure(since he was asking me), so I figured I was missing something.

Do remember, though, that d20 guns to, like, 2d10. That should punch through most DR. I was thinking Ironguard and summons, but 'splosives are still dangerous with all that sonic damage.

Friendly fire would be a nice spell to have.Source? Not familiar with that spell.

[Hirax]

Persist the following: undermaster, flight (any method), ghostform, and superior invisibility. You could then earthquake the world to death with impunity. Due to the fact that you're casting earthquake as an SLA, you'll be pretty much undetectable due to not needing somantic, verbal, or material components, and the fact that you've got ghostform and superior invisibility. While we have planes, everything needs to land eventually, and anything on the ground will get swallowed by a fissure eventually. No structure has the hardness to withstand 100 damage repeatedly.

[Othesemo]

Send in one allip.

[Callous]

Ironguard (http://dndtools.eu/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/greater-ironguard--1580/)

Bring on the bullets :smallredface:

[demigodus]

I think this would be more interesting if both worlds had access to the laws of physics of each other.

That said, up to what level PCs are we dealing with here, how many, and just how optimized?

Also, why are people calling on level 20 wizards and such?

Send in anything incorporeal (no magic = immune to EVERYTHING) being that deals negative levels. Anything it kills, turns into that creature. Drop off a few in each population center, call it a day. Just find whatever you can summon at as early a level as possible.

[Othesemo]

Send in one allip.



Send in anything incorporeal (no magic = immune to EVERYTHING) being that deals negative levels. Anything it kills, turns into that creature. Drop off a few in each population center, call it a day. Just find whatever you can summon at as early a level as possible.

Why debate needs to exist beyond this point is beyond me. D&D literally has an 'I win' button sitting in front of it.

[Hirax]

Hence why I mentioned ghostform. Pair with shapechange and you can choose the form of the destructor. :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

Haven't there been several threads about this already? I remember one going into the dozens of pages, and amounted to "If high-level Wizards are allowed, dnd-cosmology wins, if not, real-world does".

I stand by my sentiment: At least one ragtag band of misfits will form in a tavern somewhere, move on to defeat forces from both sides, and eventually close the portal after a climactic battle with a powerful foe. Maybe a city or three will be destroyed in the effort, but the two worlds would be either severed once more, or brought to peaceful resolution.

[Little Brother]

That is difficult.

IF, let's say, just to give mundanes a chance, anything going through the portal is considered magic on the other side, how would that change things? It would prevent a 1 allip/shadow/etc=loldead scenario(though to remember spawn-creation was banned in the OP. Otherwise, the world would have quite probably turned into Shadowville).

[Saintheart]

Source? Not familiar with that spell.

Friendly Fire is from Exemplars of Evil. Basically, all ranged attacks are reflected back at the shooter's allies. Sort of makes bullets and missiles a lot funnier than they're probably meant to be.

[Slipperychicken]

Friendly Fire is from Exemplars of Evil. Basically, all ranged attacks are reflected back at the shooter's allies. Sort of makes bullets and missiles a lot funnier than they're probably meant to be.

You redirect it to a valid target within 30ft of you. At best, you're sowing the ground with munitions. You're still boned against explosives with a 30+ft radius. I'm no munitions expert, so I don't know how commonly you launch those things at infantry.

It also lasts for 1 round unless you persist it somehow. Persisting 4th level spells is not easy, so you can only expect the token high-level, highly-optimized wizard to keep it up for more than six seconds.

[Arbane]

Barring foreknowledge, what sort of plausible real-world defense is there against Scry & Fry (or Scry & Charm) tactics?

A wizardly wanna-be world-conqueror who's willing to use tactics OTHER than 'line the troops up, let them get killed' has a LOT of options to subjugate our Earth, unfortunately.

[Randomguy]

Is planar binding or planar ally allowed? Are evil monsters, like mind flayers and beholders, on team D&D? Is the geneva convention being followed by one or both teams?

I'd say, overall, 3.5 would would win because of speed. No matter how quickly you can airdrop soldiers into a town, teleporting is faster. We've also got scrying, which can't be blocked nonmagically without a ridiculous amount of lead. Scry, kill, repeat.

And no need to wait for a wizard to replenish spells: a single mirror of mental prowess pretty much means game over for the modern team: They can keep going all day. For 24 hours, even, by cycling different teams through or by using summoned monsters or undead, which don't need sleep. And with a few clerics, wands or beneficial traps on standby, the strike team could be healed, and corpses could be retrieved and reanimated, for the next go.

Even if the moderns notice the scrying censors once or twice, they won't have much time to react and grab weapons before a team of skeletons, fighters, summons, or the like pops in to attack. And if no one notices the censor, then the d&d team can use the mirrors powers to gather intelligence, with perfect accuracy.
For extra fun, use the mirror to get inside of an occupied tank and start throwing castings of dominate person around.

The strike team doesn't even need to be vulnerable to attack: The while set up could be in a demiplane, or deep underground. The one big advantage that the modern side had just got neutralised.

Team d&d also has a huge advantage in terms of infiltrating, thanks to disguise self, invisibility, alter self, and especially hats of disguise. (and dopplegangers and other shapechangers). While the front liners are being part of team scry and die, the sneaks can infiltrate the enemy and kill the soldiers in their sleep.

I'd give it a week, tops, until the main base was destroyed or captured. Then it's just a matter of tracking down the people that were on missions the days that the bases were destroyed.

[Jack_Simth]

Given all these rules, who wins?
A Psion(Telepath) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm) who feels like assassinating the world leaders from the comfort of his own home and has some XP to burn.

Seriously. Unless they find out that lead blocks that particular tactic, the leaders are quite doomed.

A Sorcerer or Wizard who knows how to work the Planar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm), and doesn't mind occasionally murdering the outsider that doesn't agree, can pretty much wipe out most armies in a day.

Anyone with ready access to Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) can pretty much turn into something that's effectively immune to damage, hop through the portal, and zap everything in sight.

Depending on how the DM interprets invisibility vs. cameras vs. IR scopes vs. Mind Blank vs. (et cetera), the mundanes could all be slaughtered by an invisible foe they have no hope of finding, such as an Invisible Stalker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm).

I mean really. If both sides use their MAD nukes (actual nuclear weapons for the mundanes, self-replicating undead for the mages), it's going to be a fairly one-sided fight if we ignore the genre savvy bits.

[Glaurung]

To make sure that I am not misunderstood, let me say that I tend to agree that moderns would not stand a chance for all of the aforementioned reasons.

That said, our history is rich with ideas of magic. Our religions all involved miraculous powers being invoked by prophets, saviors, priests, and such. i'm not a religious person at all, but consider if every rabbi, mullah, priest, yogi and such suddenly found themselves able to turn (or in many cases rebuke) the Allips, wights, and such? And what would happen if blessing/christening/etc. items suddenly had a measurable effect? (Smash bottles of booze at the ships, planes, tanks, personnel carriers, and even the ammo boxes).

And how well do modern surveillance systems work? Moderns might be able "see" better than we assume.

Yes, a 20th level Wizard still has control of time, space, and intelligence. S/he still probably wins it all. But to assume a modern army divorced from anything supernatural and assuming a D&D world with the benefit of both the mundane and the supernatural might be missing the point. How quickly would the moderns adapt and learn? Magic-infused high technology anyone? Would old, "irrelevant" ideas and thinking suddenly become useful?

Of course we have no rules to reference for a "return" of presumably dead magic given a 3.5 world vs. (secular/non-magical) modern world by which to play it out the senario.

And i'd still bet on the 20th level wizard...

[Jack_Simth]

How quickly would the moderns adapt and learn? Magic-infused high technology anyone?The OP specifically says no to the possibility in the OP:

Terrans cannot use magic.

[Telonius]

A big question is how high of a level the Terran Army is considered. If we're going with the theory that no living human is higher than 6th-level-equivalent, a single Cloudkill or Blasphemy could wipe out hundreds of troops.

If there's a single level-20 Wizard, Cleric, or Druid left alive after the first strike, the Terrans have pretty much had it.

[ngilop]

How is that a No to the possibility?

the OP said
Terrans cannot use magic

but said nothing about Humans from Earth using magic.

1000 internets and 2 dozen cupcakes if you get the actual point I just made.

[Talentless]

A big question is how high of a level the Terran Army is considered. If we're going with the theory that no living human is higher than 6th-level-equivalent, a single Cloudkill or Blasphemy could wipe out hundreds of troops.

If there's a single level-20 Wizard, Cleric, or Druid left alive after the first strike, the Terrans have pretty much had it.

While true, i also see no reason to assume that the DnD side will have 20th level characters if the Terrans are limited to level 6.

And honestly, the really really big factor of all of it is just how affected a Terran would be BY magic in the first place. If they are genetically incapable of using any magic whatsoever, would it not be reasonable to assume some rather severe degree of magic immunity to compensate in such a situation?

I mean, the level 20 Wizard still has enough I win buttons to end the war even if all Terrans were immune to any direct magical effect attempted upon them, but it would make things interesting, and even up the fight a bit more.

[VGLordR2]

While true, i also see no reason to assume that the DnD side will have 20th level characters if the Terrans are limited to level 6.


The contest is D&D rules versus real life rules. In D&D, there are levels. In real life, there are none.

[awa]

it really depends
first how many high level characters are their if a world with only low level casters will fare very differently then one with high level casters.
second optimization if you run the wizards as portable fire ball dispensers the way they seem to have been balanced for then their about as good as a guy with a box of grenades.

and finally how things interact can you see someone invisibility with infrared what does a uv light do to a shadow.

in general though i would agree with what everyone else has said and say dnd wins unless you have a low magic, low level setting then it gets more fair.

personally i don't think they even need any tricks like broken summoning or 9th level spells. between charm spells, glibness, invisibility, alter self dimension door and illusions i think most modern forces would find themselves crippled with paranoia.

Something to consider an earth military needs vast amount of supplies to support it, shipments of food, fuel and bullets, where a dnd force is vastly more self-sufficient often not needing any supplies at all.

edit. just becuase you cant use something their is no reason it should make you immune to that thing, by that logic the dnders who are prohibited from using guns (if i understand the opening post correctly) should be immune to bullets.

[Eldan]

How about we make this an E6 D&D world vs. the real world? Might be a bit more interesting. Exclude incorporeal creatures, too.

[Telonius]

So would Terran HD count as 0, 1, or null set? I think we have to assume some sort of universe-rule overlap. Otherwise, a Magic Missile that hits a Terran wouldn't actually do anything - since Terrans don't technically have HP, and HP damage is what Magic Missile does. (Same way with things that deal ability score damage, getting hit with a D&D sword, etc).

[Sheogoroth]

I think people tend to underestimate the sheer amount of pierce that modern rounds can have have when compared to what DnD has rules for- black powder muskets?
Compare that to a .50 BMG high precision rifle round.
Snipers would be endgame.

You could probably kill a dragon with a modern Bunker Buster.

[Othesemo]

I think people tend to underestimate the sheer amount of pierce that modern rounds can have have when compared to what DnD has rules for- black powder muskets?
Compare that to a .50 BMG high precision rifle round.
Snipers would be endgame.

You could probably kill a dragon with a modern Bunker Buster.

Ironguard. Stoneskin. Displacement. Regeneration of any variety. Immunity to fire. The sheer number of available options the D&D side has far outweighs what firepower we could bring to bear.

[Slipperychicken]

The contest is D&D rules versus real life rules. In D&D, there are levels. In real life, there are none.

That's another good point. HP damage doesn't work IRL. In dnd, a commoner is KO'd by one or two good punches connecting (average 2hp vs 1d3 damage), but real life doesn't work that way. You can take a lot more punishment than that before passing out (IIRC most people can take more than 3 punches without passing out). Also, real normal people can throw more than one punch in six seconds, so the whole action economy is different, too.


Real-world physics are radically different from dnd physics, too. Terminal velocity does not happen from 400ft (and does not happen in a vacuum), creation is not possible (you can't make something from nothing), and so on. Maybe all the Dragons and Giants coming into the "real world" would collapse because their physiology doesn't work IRL (their bodies would be crushed under the wieght, they'd die from falling over. Or so sayeth my biology-majoring friends).

[awa]

but the problem is you cant kill a shadow at all unless their is a non raw interaction so even if we assuming the shadow cant reproduce the cleric controlling him can kill anyone he wants at his leisure.

Wizards in dnd arnt powerful becuase they can do lots of damge their powerful becuase they don't need to.

[Slipperychicken]

Ironguard. Stoneskin. Displacement. Regeneration of any variety. Immunity to fire. The sheer number of available options the D&D side has far outweighs what firepower we could bring to bear.

Remember, most of those are either extremely short duration (seconds, minutes) and/or require mid-to-high-level casters, which means they both can't be feasibly used on the rank-and-file, and that those few so-affected can be shot to death once the duration wears off, shelled/exploded as normal without trouble, or masses of soldiers could eat the miss chance with the many, many bullets they're firing every second (depends on how you model rapid-fire weapons).

[Little Brother]

So, I'm seeing the general conclusion being that any full caster(Or, at least, group of full casters) above, say, level 13 means D&D wins hard. Otherwise, they'd have to play really hard guerrilla warfare and repel the Terrans, but not win, or at least have a hugely brutal campaign. E6, they probably would lose relatively quickly, but with some pockets of very dangerous resistance from the high-level(lv 6) casters.

I mean, charm, infinite minions, minions strong enough to throw tanks with a single blow(Monoliths are fun), large scale death, and the like means D&D just needs to protect their casters. Even non-casters at relatively low levels can do some damage, with things like Darkstalker Rogues and Swift Hunters, Bubs builds, and the like, but cannot win by themselves.

Does this seem right?

On a secondary note: Would it be at all possible, in an OPTIMIZED D&D world, for nothing but mundanes and partial casters to win? What if they were capable of using modern tech they looted? I mean, Water Orc Frenzied Berserkers could probably wreck a front line, and Rogues and Rangers with sniper rifles could do some damage. Wildshape Rangers would also be pretty nasty.

[Dervag]

A big question is how high of a level the Terran Army is considered. If we're going with the theory that no living human is higher than 6th-level-equivalent, a single Cloudkill...is what gas masks are for. Other spells are, yes, more dangerous.

Also note that modern armies are far more spread out and make a point of being hard to see, compared to medieval armies or most giant rampaging monsters. Killing them by normal means, even with 20th level magic, takes time- you have to saturate entire square kilometers with enough concentrated deadliness to kill people hiding behind high cover bonuses and so on. It can be done, but it's not "wave hand game over" unless you start breaking out the cheese.

[Othesemo]

So, I'm seeing the general conclusion being that any full caster(Or, at least, group of full casters) above, say, level 13 means D&D wins hard. Otherwise, they'd have to play really hard guerrilla warfare and repel the Terrans, but not win, or at least have a hugely brutal campaign. E6, they probably would lose relatively quickly, but with some pockets of very dangerous resistance from the high-level(lv 6) casters.

I mean, charm, infinite minions, minions strong enough to throw tanks with a single blow(Monoliths are fun), large scale death, and the like means D&D just needs to protect their casters. Even non-casters at relatively low levels can do some damage, with things like Darkstalker Rogues and Swift Hunters, Bubs builds, and the like, but cannot win by themselves.

Does this seem right?

On a secondary note: Would it be at all possible, in an OPTIMIZED D&D world, for nothing but mundanes and partial casters to win? What if they were capable of using modern tech they looted? I mean, Water Orc Frenzied Berserkers could probably wreck a front line, and Rogues and Rangers with sniper rifles could do some damage. Wildshape Rangers would also be pretty nasty.

Depends on how much WBL is available, and also if monsters are fighting too. With enough gold, you could feasibly turn one ancient wyrm gold dragon into a flying juggernaut of unstoppable destruction, literally immune to everything and capable of destroying several buildings per round. The tarrasque with Overland Flight could wreck most anything, and even the tarrasque without could still cause a great deal of destruction. What's more, it would never die.

[Hecuba]

but the problem is you cant kill a shadow at all unless their is a non raw interaction so even if we assuming the shadow cant reproduce the cleric controlling him can kill anyone he wants at his leisure.

Holy water works (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), is explicitly non-magical, and exists real world (unless you posit that D&D holy water |= RL holy water). Still not ideal, but it can get the job done for even incoporeal undead.


On a secondary note: Would it be at all possible, in an OPTIMIZED D&D world, for nothing but mundanes and partial casters to win? What if they were capable of using modern tech they looted? I mean, Water Orc Frenzied Berserkers could probably wreck a front line, and Rogues and Rangers with sniper rifles could do some damage. Wildshape Rangers would also be pretty nasty.

That will depend on some elements not yet specified. To start:

Removing full casters takes the D&D nuclear options off the table. If the same is not true for the actual articles, the Earthlings have MAD-unchecked nukes (which changes things).
How "partial" are partial casters. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nar Demonbinder lacking 9's doesn't qualify. But there are a fair number of ways to get 5s, and a few ways to get 6s. Are we looking here, or do we cap at 4?

[Snowbluff]

is what gas masks are for. Other spells are, yes, more dangerous.



Not breathing Cloudkill doesn't keep it from killing you.

[Amoren]

DR likely won't save anything from an army, even huge amounts of it. Remember that every weapon strike deals at least one damage, regardless of DR. So each bullet that hits these super monsters still does, at least, one damage. Now recall how many bullets can be pumped out by a modern assault rifle or machine gun, or heavens forbid, a vehicle mounted machine gun. By sheer volume of bullets a modern day army could bring down a dragon, but the DnD world wouldn't be able to take down a tank by volume of arrows.

Vehicles are also typically made of very thick steel, sometimes with a Faraday cage slapped on too (or at least tanks and likely ACPs are). This should be more than enough than to account for a few inches of lead and make them resistant to any spell that's stopped by such.

Wizards also wouldn't know WHERE to scry, even if they could gain access to the otherside of the portal. They have no knowledge of real earth and thus wouldn't be able to perceive those areas. They could try and rip the knowledge out of a soldier's head, but even a 20th level wizard would need to be within 1200 feet of the White House to do so, which puts him greatly at risk. And, if the modern firearms interact with DnD opponents with RL physics, one gun shot will kill the 20th level wizard (or multiple bursts from a few soldiers to rip through mystical buffs). If not, they'd be a large supply of soldiers pouring to take him on, and the leader would be alerted and taken to a secret bunker nearby which should have more than enough protection in armor and earth to not be penetrated by most magic, and would also not be known by the grunts he's dealing with.

The advantage does go to DnD with the huge utility and game changes of magic, but in almost everything else the real world has a huge technology advantage. Any direct fights will be largely in their favor, so it comes down to if the wizards who care to involve themselves can turn the tides before the Earth's armies swiftly bring Kings and other rulers to the surrendering table.

And of course, there's always the possibility for the Real Life armies to hire/'persaude' people from the DnD world to tell them how to deal with magic/incorporeal creatures, just like the wizard can charm/mind control/read the minds of people to learn about Earth.

[Gavinfoxx]

DR likely won't save anything from an army, even huge amounts of it. Remember that every weapon strike deals at least one damage, regardless of DR.

Uh no, that's not the case?? Also, we have access to lots of weapons that would deal typed elemental damage and cause diseases and poisons and such...

[Amoren]

Uh no, that's not the case?? Also, we have access to lots of weapons that would deal typed elemental damage and cause diseases and poisons and such...

Huh, that's odd. Rereading damage reduction on d20srd.org says that damage can be negated completely by damage reduction. Yet, the last time I saw damage reduction referenced with this case before just now was for a feat in Draconomicon, which read, “You gain damage reduction 2/-. This stacks with any damage reduction you have from other sources. Damage reduction cannot reduce damage below 0.” That combined with how my last long running game table played it, seemed to indicate that you always deal at least one damage despite damage reduction.

Was it changed between 3.0 and 3.5 or something?

[Hecuba]

Was it changed between 3.0 and 3.5 or something?

DR was one of the big 3.0-3.5 changes.

[Tvtyrant]

I think this is a debate that is going to be dominated by either a strict adherence to D&D RAW or an adherence to real world physics. Realistically cloudkill shouldn't effect someone in a hazmat suit, since it never touches them, but in D&D it would effect them anyways.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think this is a debate that is going to be dominated by either a strict adherence to D&D RAW or an adherence to real world physics. Realistically cloudkill shouldn't effect someone in a hazmat suit, since it never touches them, but in D&D it would effect them anyways.

Yea, we need to decide which takes precedence.

[Amoren]

I think this is a debate that is going to be dominated by either a strict adherence to D&D RAW or an adherence to real world physics. Realistically cloudkill shouldn't effect someone in a hazmat suit, since it never touches them, but in D&D it would effect them anyways.

My best answer is that something from one world affects the other like an item in that world. That way, cloudkill operates under real life physics and doesn't affect people isolated from it, and also the huge hulking barbarian isn't killed by a pistol shot to the head.

[Slipperychicken]

My best answer is that something from one world affects the other like an item in that world. That way, cloudkill operates under real life physics and doesn't affect people isolated from it, and also the huge hulking barbarian isn't killed by a pistol shot to the head.

The headshot would definitely count as a critical hit. You can't tell me, with a straight face, that putting a bullet in someone's skull isn't going to do some serious damage. If the bullet is dealing hp-damage that is. If it's dealing "real world damage", it penetrates the skull, and probably damages the Barbarian's brain to the point where the creature falls over and dies.

On that thought, modern artillery will probably be repeatedly invoking the Massive Damage Fort-Save-or-Die, even on especially on strong creatures like Dragons.

If there is a distinction between damage dealt and damage received (I forgot. Too late at night), the save might be triggered even with damage types the creature is immune to, since the attack dealt so much damage, even though the creature didn't take all of it.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would say that for a multiple hundred hit point barbarian, the bullet bounces off of his skull.

Hell, it might bounce off of his eye.

Just saying. One of those things...

*whistles*

[Twilightwyrm]

Without nukes or similar devices, I would have to say D&D. Even if we take out monsters entirely, I'm just not convinced a Special Ops team or an airstrike (which might be crippled by a single magic missile spell) would be enough to counter the extreme power that magic gives. And when a druid can infiltrate the enemy camp as a mouse, and cast an earthquake on the headquarters, I'm not quite sure how a human army that doesn't have access to nuke level weaponry can compete. I mean, we have all manner of predator drones, I guess, but I'm not sure it would be enough.

[Little Brother]

That will depend on some elements not yet specified. To start:

Removing full casters takes the D&D nuclear options off the table. If the same is not true for the actual articles, the Earthlings have MAD-unchecked nukes (which changes things).Nukes are banned. Terra wants colonization, all nukes were destroyed in an international treaty, or what have you.

How "partial" are partial casters. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nar Demonbinder lacking 9's doesn't qualify. But there are a fair number of ways to get 5s, and a few ways to get 6s. Are we looking here, or do we cap at 4?
Bards are the biggest caster. No Sublime Chord. Bard and Mystic Ranger are the top casters, probably(But I will draw the line at SotAO).

I would say that for a multiple hundred hit point barbarian, the bullet bounces off of his skull.

Hell, it might bounce off of his eye.

Just saying. One of those things...

*whistles*Yeah. Plus, Frenzied Berserker can survive a nuke at point-blank range. Nasty things, ain't they?

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah. Plus, Frenzied Berserker can survive a nuke at point-blank range. Nasty things, ain't they?

It's easy. He just has to hope the nuke didn't create any difficult terrain (literally cannot make Balance or Tumble checks while Frenzying), he makes the Massive Damage save (well, that's not so hard for him, but a 5% automatic death chance is always scary), and someone's around and able to to heal him up from -9999 before the Frenzy wears off :smallbiggrin: He was probably sent flying across the continent from the sheer force if he's still in one piece at all, and personally, I'd invoke the Chunky Salsa rule.

Also, Deathless Frenzy requires a mid-level character who specially trained to be an FB. Those guys aren't exactly dime-a-dozen, and there's no good way to train them cheaply.

[Randomguy]

I tend to agree with slipperychicken. Unless something has high DR, a headshot with an assault rifle is a kill. But remember, most shots in real life are aimed to center mass ( the torso), which I think are eventual kills, not instant kills (unless they hit the heart), and which could be cured by magic.





Vehicles are also typically made of very thick steel, sometimes with a Faraday cage slapped on too (or at least tanks and likely ACPs are). This should be more than enough than to account for a few inches of lead and make them resistant to any spell that's stopped by such.


Disintigrate!



Wizards also wouldn't know WHERE to scry, even if they could gain access to the otherside of the portal. They have no knowledge of real earth and thus wouldn't be able to perceive those areas. They could try and rip the knowledge out of a soldier's head, but even a 20th level wizard would need to be within 1200 feet of the White House to do so, which puts him greatly at risk. And, if the modern firearms interact with DnD opponents with RL physics, one gun shot will kill the 20th level wizard (or multiple bursts from a few soldiers to rip through mystical buffs). If not, they'd be a large supply of soldiers pouring to take him on, and the leader would be alerted and taken to a secret bunker nearby which should have more than enough protection in armor and earth to not be penetrated by most magic, and would also not be known by the grunts he's dealing with.

One gunshot will severely annoy a powerful wizard by forcing him to recast astral projection. It might kill a poorly prepared one, though.

In terms of scrying: it shouldn't be too hard to find the first outpost that the moderns have on the D&D side of the portal. (Summoning an astral stalker to find out where they came from would work well). After the outpost is eliminated (scry and die), then it would take a lot of preparation time before they could stage an attack on earth, but it would still be possible by impersonating, scouting, and divinations that don't require familiarity, such as chain of eyes. .

[Amoren]

But if we look at a barbarian reacting to a bullet with real world physics, his skull is penetrated, and even if he is a frenzied berserker in a frenzy, his brain can no longer operate and he's left there paralyzed, drooling, and not being able to breathe until he finally stops raging and dies. Or, for succinctly higher calibers, his head is missing completely.

Magic missile also wouldn't cripple an air strike, since magic missile only has a range of 300ft (before metamagic) at caster level 20. The plane likely wouldn't even fly that close to the ground before dropping its bombs/missiles. Hell, helicopters probably don't fly that close to the ground.

As for Earthquakes, I imagine most army bases are built to the standard that they would be affected little, if at all, by a typical earthquake. And certainly could stand up to one better than a stone mason building (which survives an Earthquake spell). It might do in a base with several castings, though.

[Doorhandle]

Send in anything incorporeal (no magic = immune to EVERYTHING) being that deals negative levels. Anything it kills, turns into that creature. Drop off a few in each population center, call it a day. Just find whatever you can summon at as early a level as possible.


Electricity would still hit it, right? Also, technically, so would fire, even the non-magical sort, for half-damage. Bring on the flamethrowers!

And also, about D.R; Remember this is the modern world, so we would have tanks and jets. I'm pretty sure if those things can hurt each other, they could hurt a dragon pretty handily, and both of them could outrace one. Granted, the tanks would have difficulty hitting some of the fliers but that is what stinger missiles are for. Not to mention that our beyond-visual range capability is perhaps centuries ahead of theirs, even if they spying is centuries ahead of ours.

The real killers would be outsiders. At-will teleport + blasphemy = SCREW THE RULES, I'M A DEMON!


But if we look at a barbarian reacting to a bullet with real world physics, his skull is penetrated, and even if he is a frenzied berserker in a frenzy, his brain can no longer operate and he's left there paralyzed, drooling, and not being able to breathe until he finally stops raging and dies. Or, for succinctly higher calibers, his head is missing completely.

Magic missile also wouldn't cripple an air strike, since magic missile only has a range of 300ft (before metamagic) at caster level 20. The plane likely wouldn't even fly that close to the ground before dropping its bombs/missiles. Hell, helicopters probably don't fly that close to the ground.

As for Earthquakes, I imagine most army bases are built to the standard that they would be affected little, if at all, by a typical earthquake. And certainly could stand up to one better than a stone mason building (which survives an Earthquake spell). It might do in a base with several castings, though.


1. First, D&D physics, because he is from the D.&.D universe. He’d keep going, in my opinion, unless he was decapitated by the bullet, because he is THAT. FREAKING ANGRY. Mines might work better.

2.So it would only work after metamagic and if the wizard was also flying? Hmmmm….. nah, he couldn’t catch up to it. Those jets are freaking FAST. But it could lead to the funny situation where the wizard targets the plane, but it outruns the spell and the magic missile follows the plane back to base.

3. I’m sure he has enough castings to work with that, and it would do a bang-up job on civilian targets. Not to mention stone-to-mud: although I don’t think that works on natural targets. Say, what about cloudkill? Are gas-masks still standard issue? And would there be a similar, A>O.E effect with the same range and same chance of burning out a cave? Reguardless, control weather would be seriously useful on all above-gorund targets. We can barley recove from one hurricane: one druid able to potentually make sevreal in a day would be a lving W.M.D as long as he lived, and only 1 needs to exixt to kill thousands.

[Little Brother]

One gunshot will severely annoy a powerful wizard by forcing him to recast astral projection. It might kill a poorly prepared one, though.YMMV on the headshot or what have you, but not this. A high-level wizard is smarter than the most brilliant minds in our history(Probably quite significantly, depending on the fluff of how enhancement and inherent bonuses work on your real IQ). They've survived all the way to level 20. They are paranoid and brilliant beyond words. There is no such thing as an unprepared high-level wizard. Jus' saying.

In terms of scrying: it shouldn't be too hard to find the first outpost that the moderns have on the D&D side of the portal. (Summoning an astral stalker to find out where they came from would work well). After the outpost is eliminated (scry and die), then it would take a lot of preparation time before they could stage an attack on earth, but it would still be possible by impersonating, scouting, and divinations that don't require familiarity, such as chain of eyes. .I would suggest summoning or simulacrumating(?) an Elemental Weird. At-will Divination means basically knowing whatever you want.

Funny thing, by the way. Elemental Monoliths, I believe, can throw tanks by smacking them hard. This suddenly adds incentive to actually summon them, over the spamability of Summon Monster/Nature's Ally/Abyssal Army/etc. I mean, throwing tanks! Several a round with Great Cleave and, say, casting Blood Wind on it. The coolness factor alone is awesome.

EDIT: On dragons: They are ancient, powerful casters. They have access to Ironguard, immunities, etc, just like a wizard. Dragons are much, much more than mere gigantic fire-delivery mechanisms.

[Slipperychicken]

Not to mention that our beyond-visual range capability is perhaps centuries ahead of theirs, even if they spying is centuries ahead of ours.


That's another minor point; dnd maximum ranges for projectiles are pretty small (1200ft if you're lucky), compared to the ranges from which a helicopter can simply blast things to oblivion (miles?). Plus, for long-range weaponry (snipers, artillery), making Spot checks to even see them before they fire is going to be brutal, with every 10ft imposing a -1.

For some perspective, a dnd character trying to spot a character hiding on the other side of a football field is taking a -36 penalty (practically impossible), while real-world guys will likely have an easier time of it, with binoculars, scopes, and all that jazz. So that will probably play into tactics a bit, until someone busts out the optimized high-level magic, anyway. At which point, all bets are off: dnd-verse wins.

[Doorhandle]

Good catch there on the dragons. I imagine there would be a few stupid ones that would be killed off early, but then the really clever (and really BIG) wyrms would come along with the correct sort of countermeasures to prevent detection by and/or survive a run in with a jet plane or five.

They'll need to as the jets can run rings around them while still dealing out enough firepower to kill one (except perhaps the fireproof ones, and even then, with GAU-8s flying about...) from outside effective combat range for the dragon.

On the other hand, I don't think that radar/sonar counts as divination, and thus I don't think D&D has any real counter-measure for such methods of detection. How good is modern technology at aiming by radar? I'm sure a great wyrm, if not a human-sized beast, could be picked up by sonar/radar, so the dragons would have to rely heavily on alter-self.

Also, the result of the above statement could determine how good the earth forces are at sea, as a sea-monster has a decent chance of tearing apart a sub if it could get close-enough without being picked up and outran/torpedoed by a sub.


dnd-verse wins.

Potentualy. Can you describe in detail how it does so, for the point of obvious?

[Amoren]

1. First, D&D physics, because he is from the D.&.D universe. He’d keep going, in my opinion, unless he was decapitated by the bullet, because he is THAT. FREAKING ANGRY. Mines might work better.

Which is exactly what I'm arguing. The point of a pistol disabling a barbarian with one shot to the head was the argument for each side handling what the other throws at them with their respective universal rules.

[Little Brother]

Superior invisibility will save you from sonar/radar/etc. With immunity to fire, sonic, and metal(Hello, Ironguard), they are immune to everything a plane can throw at them short of ramming. Even then, correct contingencies and buffs(And their hundreds of hit points) should save them.

Krakens alone would tear apart subs, I'd think. If not, the subs are wasting ammo on them. Aboleths would destroy all subs that entered their territory.

Hell, I think the DN's Deathblimp alone should give them air superiority. Actually, zombie Beholders as turrets? That'd be cool! Just need a way to give them eyestalk functionality...

[candycorn]

Let's get out of the high violence, and look at this for a moment:

Initial contact (small groups):

D&D:
Group includes a wizard, a Fighter, a cleric, and a rogue (typical explorers in a D&D setting).

This group will stumble into a world bereft of magic, and with strange golems used to transport people.

Initial danger: low. Generally, they'll avoid the high speed moving vehicles and obvious dangers. Modern society generally idiot-proofs most of its stuff, so low chance of walking into something deadly.

Adaptability: high. A dominate or charm spell, will allow them to gather intelligence, and unfamiliarity with casting will likely provide the opportunity to do it.

Infiltration chance: Good.


Modern: This group will include an anthropologist, a tracker, a survival expert, and a big game hunter (common explorers in modern times).

This group will stumble into D&D land, a land filled with strange creatures.

Initial danger: Moderate. D&D does NOT idiot proof its stuff. Generally, its stuff has pointy teeth and tries to eat you. Still, there is a hunter there, so a decent shot at protecting themselves vs most threats.

Adapability: Low. They have to gather information the old fashioned way.

Edge in small-scale and initial surprise: D&D world.

Large scale?

well, modern armies are large, accurate, and lethal. D&D armies are generally comprised of people with day jobs as farmers. Edge: Modern (though both have good special teams).

Thus, D&D is more suited to small scale forays and infiltration, and modern world is more suited to large engagements.

Overall, I give the edge to D&D world, due to the effectiveness of dominate + assassinate. Even a mid level wizard could go far, behind the scenes, enthralling minions to work for him.

[Gavinfoxx]

How close to weird arbitrary rules-y physics are we sticking for the D&D world (like the Spot thing?)?

I would presume that we are just talking about the major abilities, in a broad sense, and not the actual weird physics of the world as interpreted by badly written spot rules, right?

If the D&D world folk IS following that set of rules, (and I presume that this isn't set in a world that would have access to their canonical set of rules, of course! so we would have game-like things to look at, but not that exact set of rules, so this doesn't get really meta REALLY quickly, and the challenge functions...), how quickly would we be able to determine the important bits of how their physics functions?

[Little Brother]

Okay, since physics does seem to be a problem, let's do it this way: Normal laws of physics apply to the base rules(IE, yes you CAN see the sun, no drown healing), but class abilities/feats/specific non-framework thingies are in effect(Like Darkstalker bypassing Sonar). That makes the most sense, IMO.

[candycorn]

Actually, I don't believe darkstalker references infrared or sonar. Therefore, darkstalker wouldn't protect vs them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sonar like things is described in D&D physics, though...

Explicitly!

It's Blindsight or Blindsense, depending on the creature which has it...

[candycorn]

Sonar like things is described in D&D physics, though...

Explicitly!

It's Blindsight or Blindsense, depending on the creature which has it...

But they're not referenced as "sonar". We could translate it to a D&D mechanic, but it's not listed as that mechanic. So it's not that. Blindsight is not sonar for one simple reason. The rules don't say so. All the common sense arguments won't change that.

That said, D&D wins, just from disease introduction. Modern is much more vulnerable to new disease.

For example: A military vessel's sonar is powerful enough to rupture eardrums at a quarter mile. Is that "just blindsense"? No, it functions differently.

[Little Brother]

Actually, I don't believe darkstalker references infrared or sonar. Therefore, darkstalker wouldn't protect vs them.Sonar functions in the same manner as blindsight, and therefore, when put into D&D rules, would be put in as blindsight, so yeah, it would. Or rather, the machine would have to roll spot, which it can't.

How do you think a modern army would deal with a swarm of battletitans? They have enough HP to eat a lot of fire, especially with their NA(And with, say, a ranger buffing them). Bubs builds would probably do some serious damage.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Enchantment, illusion, divination plus teleportation give a single high level wizard godlike power to manipulate the world. Earth would lose without knowing their was a fight.


is what gas masks are for. Other spells are, yes, more dangerous. Might not work work gas masks require different filters depending on what the gas is

[Hecuba]

Regarding whether or not it's on the table with partial casters, the answer would seem to be yes. Swift Etherealness is still available (though it will require Extra Spell or something similar), and it is a valid target for Persist Spell.

This means that, with a dip to manage DMM persist and 2 feats, a (non-undead) caster capable of 5s and 6s are safe from anything that the modern Army can throw at them. At that point, it's just a question of time management.

[Amoren]

That said, D&D wins, just from disease introduction. Modern is much more vulnerable to new disease.

Well, travel to and fro the portal would likely involve heavy quarantine procedures to prepare for this (would also help somewhat to guard against infiltrating wizards). On the flip side, DnD world has no real capacity to prevent a plague of bugs used to being saturated in poisons trying to kill it for decades, and no magical healing will be able to keep pace with a pandemic of our super bugs running rampant. Which also means all those new bugs coming from the DnD world have never been exposed to antivirals or artifical antibodies, and many of them will probably be laughably cured by modern medical technology (especially since a lot of them are probably just historical illnesses of the rough period DnD is set in).

Even if diseases would spread much, much faster in our modern world.

[candycorn]

Sonar functions in the same manner as blindsight, and therefore, when put into D&D rules, would be put in as blindsight, so yeah, it would. Or rather, the machine would have to roll spot, which it can't.

How do you think a modern army would deal with a swarm of battletitans? They have enough HP to eat a lot of fire, especially with their NA(And with, say, a ranger buffing them). Bubs builds would probably do some serious damage.

Touchsight functions in the same manner as blindsight.

Except that it's not blindsight. And if it is not specifically "Blindsight", then what else it "is" doesn't matter one bit.

Sonar functions in the same manner as blindsight.

Except that it's not blindsight. And if it is not specifically "Blindsight", then what else it "is" doesn't matter one bit.

Blindsight is a keyword in D&D. So something that stops blindsight doesn't stop touchsight, or mindsight, or anything else that's really similar but not named blindsight.

Tank shells can blow apart 5 feet of solid stone. Calculate the HP of that, and tell me very many things in D&D can stand up to it.

We have weapons capable of blowing up concrete reinforced bunkers with, once converted to D&D HP, have thousands of HP. So calling HP a credible defense vs heavy weapons is like calling those oriental paper walls a credible defense against gunfire.

[candycorn]

Well, travel to and fro the portal would likely involve heavy quarantine procedures to prepare for this (would also help somewhat to guard against infiltrating wizards). On the flip side, DnD world has no real capacity to prevent a plague of bugs used to being saturated in poisons trying to kill it for decades, and no magical healing will be able to keep pace with a pandemic of our super bugs running rampant. Which also means all those new bugs coming from the DnD world have never been exposed to antivirals or artifical antibodies, and many of them will probably be laughably cured by modern medical technology (especially since a lot of them are probably just historical illnesses of the rough period DnD is set in).

Even if diseases would spread much, much faster in our modern world.

Disease curing in D&D: Cast a spell.

Disease curing in real world: billions of dollars and months of research, for an effect which will only be effective for a year or so. And that's if it's bacteria. Against a virus? Much less likely.

As for quarantine provisions? All it takes is one person casting contagion.

Also, antivirals and antibodies are very specifically engineered. They work against precisely one virus, and not even fully against that, given virus mutation rates. Once the protein structure of a virus differs, even slightly, an antibody is no longer effective.

So antibodies would need to be developed vs those bugs, not the other way around.

Believe me, a Cancer Mage would be modern world's worst nightmare.

[Little Brother]

Touchsight functions in the same manner as blindsight.

Except that it's not blindsight. And if it is not specifically "Blindsight", then what else it "is" doesn't matter one bit.

Sonar functions in the same manner as blindsight.

Except that it's not blindsight. And if it is not specifically "Blindsight", then what else it "is" doesn't matter one bit.Meh. I disagree, but I'll drop it. Touchsight doesn't work like blindsight.

Tank shells can blow apart 5 feet of solid stone. Calculate the HP of that, and tell me very many things in D&D can stand up to it.908 damage to blow up a 5-foot cube of rock with one attack. Hmmm. Totally mundane HP damage, so ethereals and regens can eat it fine. If the tank rolls badly, though, quite a lot of things can take them, and a lot of these things are summonable/gateable.

We have weapons capable of blowing up concrete reinforced bunkers with, once converted to D&D HP, have thousands of HP. So calling HP a credible defense vs heavy weapons is like calling those oriental paper walls a credible defense against gunfire.Meh. I was referring to it surviving personal/machine gun fire. Meh, there are better things to bring in. Still, a single battletitan should crump a tank in one full attack with PA.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, lots of our weapons work best at craaazzzyyyy long ranges. The ability to arbitrarily Gate huge monstrous powerful things in right on top of them is... kinda a big deal.

[Amoren]

Disease curing in D&D: Cast a spell.

Disease curing in real world: billions of dollars and months of research, for an effect which will only be effective for a year or so. And that's if it's bacteria. Against a virus? Much less likely.

Cast a spell to heal one person, requiring a fifth level cleric or druid (not exactly common), and can only be cast a limited number of times per day. Not even a team of such clerics could likely stop such an epidemic in a single city, yet alone across a nation. And DnD world doesn't really have the knowledge to know that contact with people from another world would bring such deadly diseases (especially since people do it all the time with plane shift and no one is the worse for wiser), so by the time they finally realize its a problem, it's already incubated throughout an entire town and is on its way to every nearby city.

Still, I highly doubt every bug in DnD world is unique. I still believe most, if not all of the nonmagical diseases are RL diseases from the medevil eras of our world.

[candycorn]

Meh. I disagree, but I'll drop it. Touchsight doesn't work like blindsight.Neither does sonar. But thank you for dropping it, if not for conceding that you are incorrect.

In fact, Sonar in the real world functions a good deal differently than Blindsight does in D&D. For example, blindsight and blindsense are not vulnerable to temperature variations. Sonar is.

908 damage to blow up a 5-foot cube of rock with one attack. Hmmm. Totally mundane HP damage, so ethereals and regens can eat it fine.Explosive energy damage, comprised of a decent amount of fire damage. So incorporeals have the same chance of being affected as they do from a torch. 50%.

And ethereals can't affect the material.

If the tank rolls badly, though, quite a lot of things can take them, and a lot of these things are summonable/gateable.I've never seen a tank shell not do that much damage. So I'm pretty sure there's less dice dependence, and more massive static bonus. Like 1d8+907.

Meh. I was referring to it surviving personal/machine gun fire. Meh, there are better things to bring in. Still, a single battletitan should crump a tank in one full attack with PA.I'm sure it could. Modern tanks also move at 60mph (528 feet per round) and can fire without penalty at that speed. How do battletitans reach them?

No, the large engagement has advantage to modern world. It's on the small group scale that D&D shines.

[candycorn]

Cast a spell to heal one person, requiring a fifth level cleric or druid (not exactly common), and can only be cast a limited number of times per day. Not even a team of such clerics could likely stop such an epidemic in a single city, yet alone across a nation.But a single 17th level cleric casting Miracle could. Besides, D&D people don't have any particular vulnerability to a disease based on previous exposure. It's all handled by saving throws.


And DnD world doesn't really have the knowledge to know that contact with people from another world would bring such deadly diseases (especially since people do it all the time with plane shift and no one is the worse for wiser), so by the time they finally realize its a problem, it's already incubated throughout an entire town and is on its way to every nearby city.And since they do it all the time, one would reason that, as above, it's not a vulnerability to D&D based characters.


Still, I highly doubt every bug in DnD world is unique. I still believe most, if not all of the nonmagical diseases are RL diseases from the medevil eras of our world.Doesn't matter. All of our antivirals are based on modern diseases. There are probably a million variations of the Flu virus, in real life. It's why no viral disease has ever been cured. Ever. And you want to think that an unknown disease would be ID'd quickly and a cure developed? Not a chance.

Especially the magic diseases. No, our world has shown itself to be vulnerable to disease. Highly vulnerable. It's why disease warfare is equated with nuclear warfare.

D&D has not. Disease warfare is simply a not-very optimized way to kill things.

[Hecuba]

Explosive energy damage, comprised of a decent amount of fire damage. So incorporeals have the same chance of being affected as they do from a torch. 50%.

And ethereals can't affect the material.

Incorporeal creatures are not subject to mundane energy damage-- a torch does nothing. It must be magical or supernatural.

[Little Brother]

Explosive energy damage, comprised of a decent amount of fire damage. So incorporeals have the same chance of being affected as they do from a torch. 50%.Explosive doesn't exist. Best bet is Sonic. Ethereals also can go underground or fly.

And ethereals can't affect the material.Allip. Wis drain.

I've never seen a tank shell not do that much damage. So I'm pretty sure there's less dice dependence, and more massive static bonus. Like 1d8+907.A glancing hit, for example, could leave it partially intact. Now, I'm not denying the sheer destructive power of a tank gun. I'm just saying, while moving at high speeds and shooting a moving target, they don't always hit dead-on.

I'm sure it could. Modern tanks also move at 60mph (528 feet per round) and can fire without penalty at that speed. How do battletitans reach them?Teleport. Through a gate from a demiplane. Otherwise, popping up in the middle of the enemy base.

No, the large engagement has advantage to modern world. It's on the small group scale that D&D shines.Disagreed. The D&Dverse has Indestructible flying fortresses, tank-busting spells, an infinite number of phenomenally powerful, fearless minions that can pop into the middle of the enemy territory. They can use your minions against you. They can make your artillery think that your main body of infantry is enemies in disguise and blow them up. The larger the scale, the more confusion can be sewn, and the more can go wrong with you. Earth Monoliths can pop out of the ground, and are large enough that they can Awesome Blow your tanks into each other, and otherwise crush your large weapons. You can Earthquake in the center of the enemies(Ethereal, invisible, and underground), killing massive numbers of them. Think about it: Time Stop->Illusion->Abyssal Army x however many rounds left(With the illusion hiding where they pop up), and then earthquake once the first wave of demons die. Gate in Balors and Solars, make them Wish/Miracle up Prides of the Beastlands, or whatever, then go kill face. It's more convenient for you if they die. Also, throw illusions around. Make them friendly fire.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if a wizard had a Simulacrum factory of a bajillion Simulacra of Mirror Mephits to churn out soldiers. Even a simulacrum of a Balor is nasty. A hundred? That's brutal.

A well-designed and prepped wizard can do more damage in a larger scale battle. Thus, wizards want to participate in more larger-scale battles.

[kardar233]

No, the large engagement has advantage to modern world. It's on the small group scale that D&D shines.

Ehhh... a high-level Wizard with his own fast time plane can put out IKEA Tarrasques like nobody's business, and Moderns have no way of dealing with those except giving them a berth. It'll take some Move Speed optimization to make kills (and I don't know anything about that) but as ground forces they'll do well.

Air is tougher. We know that a savvy Dragon can make himself invulnerable to anything that they can throw at him (try Friendly Fire at a target inside a Portable Hole), but planes are damn fast. Spells won't reach far enough to be good AA, either. If you're willing to go a bit 3rd-party. the Immortal's Handbook has Epic Dragons with some more impressive Fly speeds that can keep up with planes.

[candycorn]

Allip. Wis drain.Not ethereal.

A glancing hit, for example, could leave it partially intact. Now, I'm not denying the sheer destructive power of a tank gun. I'm just saying, while moving at high speeds and shooting a moving target, they don't always hit dead-on.I will concede that 95%+ isn't always. That's the upside of computer aiming.

Teleport. Through a gate from a demiplane. Otherwise, popping up in the middle of the enemy base.Interesting. I don't see teleport anywhere on a list of a Battletitan's abilities.

In addition, I'd submit that modern has a hell of a lot more tanks than D&D has high level wizards.

Disagreed. The D&Dverse has Indestructible flying fortresses, tank-busting spells, an infinite number of phenomenally powerful, fearless minions that can pop into the middle of the enemy territory. They can use your minions against you. They can make your artillery think that your main body of infantry is enemies in disguise and blow them up. The larger the scale, the more confusion can be sewn, and the more can go wrong with you. Earth Monoliths can pop out of the ground, and are large enough that they can Awesome Blow your tanks into each other, and otherwise crush your large weapons. You can Earthquake in the center of the enemies(Ethereal, invisible, and underground), killing massive numbers of them. Think about it: Time Stop->Illusion->Abyssal Army x however many rounds left(With the illusion hiding where they pop up), and then earthquake once the first wave of demons die. Gate in Balors and Solars, make them Wish/Miracle up Prides of the Beastlands, or whatever, then go kill face. It's more convenient for you if they die. Also, throw illusions around. Make them friendly fire.I will say this again.

there is a difference between ethereal and incorporeal. Understand the terms before you try to act like you know them.

Further, you are attempting to use high level small scale forces vs armies. That's not "large scale". That's a mixed battle.


Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if a wizard had a Simulacrum factory of a bajillion Simulacra of Mirror Mephits to churn out soldiers. Even a simulacrum of a Balor is nasty. A hundred? That's brutal.Which would be in contradiction of the OP's original terms.

A well-designed and prepped wizard can do more damage in a larger scale battle. Thus, wizards want to participate in more larger-scale battles.
That's like saying, "A fat man can eat more pizza. Thus, fat people want pizza."

It's an example of flawed deductive reasoning. Capability and desire are not shown to be correlated.

[Gwendol]

Real world wins. One round (6 seconds) is an eternity for modern technology. Invisibility does nothing against IR goggles, fighter jets would come deliver and go before anyone in D&D has a chance to react. Also an army can fight until it runs out of ammo which essentially means casters are alleventually owned. Modern artillery shoots beyond the horizon if needed, at a range where most casters can't retaliate. Actually, the limited range of spells will make them almost useless.
Incorporeals would be tough to counter though.

[Little Brother]

Not ethereal.
I will concede that 95%+ isn't always. That's the upside of computer aiming.
Interesting. I don't see teleport anywhere on a list of a Battletitan's abilities.I doubt 95% of all the tanks shots will hit. There's a reason Chimeras only have BS 3, and even Land Raiders only get BS4.

And a wizard can teleport them, troops, elementals, etc. into the middle of the enemy camp.p

In addition, I'd submit that modern has a hell of a lot more tanks than D&D has high level wizards.So? The high level wizard can kill a HELL of a lot more tanks, easily.

I will say this again.

there is a difference between ethereal and incorporeal. Understand the terms before you try to act like you know them.Simple error in terminology. I understand the terms perfectly. It is just 4AM. Insomnia wrecks vocabularies, you know.

Further, you are attempting to use high level small scale forces vs armies. That's not "large scale". That's a mixed battle.Beg to disagree. I never said that would be the extent of your troops, I just said they'd be there. Use low-level-ish casters to build trenches and fortifications. Wall of force can stop artillery just fine.

Which would be in contradiction of the OP's original terms.Not necessarily.

That's like saying, "A fat man can eat more pizza. Thus, fat people want pizza."

It's an example of flawed deductive reasoning. Capability and desire are not shown to be correlated.Not true. The wizard wants to win. It is the most efficient allowed path to victory, and offers no real risk beyond blowing spell slots. Therefore, the wizard will want to do it.

Real world wins. One round (6 seconds) is an eternity for modern technology. Invisibility does nothing against IR goggles, fighter jets would come deliver and go before anyone in D&D has a chance to react. Also an army can fight until it runs out of ammo which essentially means casters are alleventually owned. Modern artillery shoots beyond the horizon if needed, at a range where most casters can't retaliate. Actually, the limited range of spells will make them almost useless.
Incorporeals would be tough to counter though.Bro? Illusions. Summons. Charms. Night strikes. You are assuming that the caster will stick around, unprotected, on the front line after its spells are gone. Send in an invisible stalker to kill the people in the barracks, or to sabotage the guns, or to steal the ammo. Teleport in invisibly and incorporeally, and destroy the ammo. Predator drones are an argument. Attrition? Against Wizards? Not so much.

[Hecuba]

And ethereals can't affect the material.

There are ways around that, though I had forgotten how few. An Ethereal Reaver will be able to deliver touch spells and normal attacks, but that's fairly limited.

It may actually be preferable to use the Incoporeal ritual with savage species instead of persisting swift etherealness.

[candycorn]

There are ways around that, though I had forgotten how few. It may actually be preferable to use the Incoporeal ritual with savage species instead of persisting swift etherealness.

As far as I know, there is precisely one, and it applies to physical attacks only. A sufficiently leveled ninja can strike material from ethereal. To my knowledge, no other race, class, feat, spell, or other feature offers this capability.

EDIT: Also, Savage species is 3.0, and the OP stated 3.5 rules.

[candycorn]

I doubt 95% of all the tanks shots will hit. There's a reason Chimeras only have BS 3, and even Land Raiders only get BS4. Because 40K bears precious little similarity to the real world?


Not true. The wizard wants to win. It is the most efficient allowed path to victory, and offers no real risk beyond blowing spell slots. Therefore, the wizard will want to do it.
Assuming motivations not evidenced. You are assuming the wizard will want to engage large armies, rather than an actual intelligent path to victory, which involves circumventing the enemy's strength altogether.

I do not. I assume my wizards will do the action that is most effective, rather than participate in an action because they are more effective than others.

So wizards will likely be charming, dominating, polymorphing, and disguising their way through the enemy...

And things that are dumb will go at the enemy's force head on.

[Hecuba]

As far as I know, there is precisely one, and it applies to physical attacks only. A sufficiently leveled ninja can strike material from ethereal. To my knowledge, no other race, class, feat, spell, or other feature offers this capability.

EDIT: Also, Savage species is 3.0, and the OP stated 3.5 rules.

There is actually a relic in complete divine that will allow it for 10 rounds per day as well, but you have to use the relic as the method of jaunt. Tabard of some god or another. Would also need another feat for True Believer though.

As mentioned, the ethereal reaver will also work (the specific weapon, not the weapon enhancement), though in a limited fashion.

You could also make use of the spell from ghost walk that lets you make animal ghosts that last days/level.

Also, 3.0 content is legal for 3.5 in the absence of replacing update.

EDIT: If needed, I can grab specific names for these when I'm not away from my books. Also, there are a couple magical beasts that would work, which you could shapechange into, but I'm still looking at this from the non-full caster angle.

[Aux-Ash]

What I find fascinating about these threads is that in general there's very little comparison and a lot of assumptions in favour of one side.
These things are complex, you cannot simply go "my favourite side got X so therefore it wins". Why does it win due to that? Does it got that in sufficient quantity to make a difference?

How does the DnD-verse handle the multi-km weapon ranges and several hundred ft/round speeds of the modern world?

How does it handle weapons being fired from beyond the horizon and moving so fast that the first warning you get is a mere moment before it hits?

How many men can be expected to be affected in typical spell radiuses?

How does the modern world handle invisibility? Does it have weaknesses that can be exploited? Just how long does it last anyways? How much damage can it actually do?

Can wizards outrun cruise missiles, aereal bomb carpets or rolling artillery barrages?

Teleport relies on knowledge of the area you're teleporting to. How will this affect the effectiveness of the wizards, seeing they know nothing of our world and modern military doctrine puts heavy emphasis on mobility?

How does the scrying compare to satellites?

Just how many high levelled wizards (and equalient spellcasters) will the dnd army have anyways? How hard will they have to work to stand on even footing? How many spells do they have to dedicate to just keep themselves safe? How often do they need to be renewed? Can the other side keep up the pressure for that long or longer? How much do they have left to wreak havoc with?

If you find the one thing that's completely immune to everything the modern world got. Is it really a good idea to release it on the 7 billion population? Can you handle the aftermath of that?

How does cloudkill compare to sarin gas cannisters fired from a artillery brigade and a unspecified location 14 km away?

Will NBC gear have any effect against magically summoned gases?

And at all times. Assume that the other side try to actively work around what you just proposed.

From some brief reserach, it seems to me that the only thing the dnd universe have that can survive the sheer destructive power of the modern world for more than one or two rounds is high levelled spell casters and things that can only be hurt by magic. Is that enough for them to win? I don't know... how many of those do they have?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Real world wins. One round (6 seconds) is an eternity for modern technology. Invisibility does nothing against IR goggles, fighter jets would come deliver and go before anyone in D&D has a chance to react. Also an army can fight until it runs out of ammo which essentially means casters are alleventually owned. Modern artillery shoots beyond the horizon if needed, at a range where most casters can't retaliate. Actually, the limited range of spells will make them almost useless.
Incorporeals would be tough to counter though.


Invisibility does nothing against IR goggles, Nope inferred is still light which can be bent by invisibilty. In 2.0 they had infravision. Invisibilty trumpt it.

Here's how I defeat the modern army if I was a high level wizard.
I scry on all the political, financial and media rulers in the world(who I can easily learn about from watching TV.) I then use teleportation, charm and dominate to put them all in my pocket. Then I have my magic and a modern army.

I could use my magic to steal modern weapons, teleport in anywhere invisibly drop explosives then leave. A hat of disguise would make identifying me impossible. I could frame people left and right. And we can't forget things like Programmed Amnesia.

I can control the damn weather and monitor the situation safe from within my Magnificent Mansion. Foresight, Contengency both great ways to help me instantly escape if caught or targeted.

All of this from just one high level wizard, whosebest adviced to do massive diamond heists so a cleric friend can true resurrect if possible.

Now lets say I'm a Lich, even if I get killed I'll be back as I could hide my phylactery beyond the reach of modern world humans. What if I'm a 30th level wizard and can cast, Rain Of Fire. 1 fire damage a round to all creatures in a 2 mile radius for 20 hours.

[Gwendol]

What I'm saying is that at the time scale in which D&D operates, the modern army can do sooooo much. Heck, even an ordinary artillery shelling will force concentration checks enough per round for casting to be difficult. And that at a distance where magic for the most part can't be used to retaliate. A single strategic nuke would be a serious problem for most in D&D.
Summons have too short range, move too slowly, and during too short duration for being a credible threat. Invisible stalker? A sonar/radar/IR equipped sentry gun or drone would have it taken out in no time.

Think about it: in 6 seconds, how many artillery rounds can be fired? Rockets launched? Rounds fired? And at what distance?

[Amoren]

The counter to invisibility is paint ball guns. (And don't tell me that doesn't work, glitter dust reveals invisible targets after all).

Motion detectors will probably work against invisible targets, however. Which will help prevent invisible targets from walking through the Earth controlled portal. And if they've got a largely successful first strike going, then they may have already learned quite a bit about the world they're invading due to captured soldiers and what not.

Of course, another factor to consider is just the difference in numbers here. A kingdom will be lucky to have a few thousand soldiers, while a nation has several thousand. Kingdoms, outside of high level magic users, have to march their soldiers into battle (which is lethal in of itself), Earth armies can be transported across the planet in a couple of days (although this level of travel isn't likely to exist on the DnD side of the portal).

And if we look at another side of things. The standard/generic/'stock' DnD world has very few, if any, high level wizards. And the few that do exist don't seem to interact at all, if any, with the world at large. The setting is mostly mundane armies with some magical support at varying levels. It's not wizards creating unstoppable killing machines (or being unstoppable killing machines) that players constantly create and optimize for.

[Aharon]

There was a long discussion that basically came to the conclusion that magic would definitely win.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182987

To make the discussion more interesting, I made a scenario with different ground rules where the outcome is not as clear cut:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-183399.html

[Lord Vukodlak]

What I'm saying is that at the time scale in which D&D operates, the modern army can do sooooo much. Heck, even an ordinary artillery shelling will force concentration checks enough per round for casting to be difficult. And that at a distance where magic for the most part can't be used to retaliate. A single strategic nuke would be a serious problem for most in D&D.
Summons have too short range, move too slowly, and during too short duration for being a credible threat. Invisible stalker? A sonar/radar/IR equipped sentry gun or drone would have it taken out in no time.

Think about it: in 6 seconds, how many artillery rounds can be fired? Rockets launched? Rounds fired? And at what distance?

I've already taken control of the army before they knew I existed using enchantments and illusions, I rain down severe unexplained weather and simply retreat before the enemy knows I was there.
I could also avoid the army and destroy supply lines.


Invisible stalker? A sonar/radar/IR equipped sentry gun or drone would have it taken out in no time.
Silence counters sonor and IR doesn't necessarlly work on invisibilty. A stalker is kind of an air elemental its wind, it wouldn't show up anymore then a cloud.
I could spend 20 minutes sheltering in a telekenetic sphere immune from damage. Then teleport away just to mock modern weapons and make them waste ammo.

I could a combination of teleportation, programmed amnesia and disguise self to trigger nuclear war between nations. Then just go home before the fireworks start.

[Averis Vol]

I'm going to throw something in here myself. the OP said that D&D doesn't exist in our world, and the ONLY time a wizard will come up with all these ridiculous plans is when nerds do, in fact, interact with the game world in such a manner that they would single handedly bend the world over its knee and make it their bitch. look at any of the published high level wizards, there is absolutely no wizard that prepares these combos. So i submit that the wizard WILL use fireball and there will not be CoDzillas running around to such a degree as high op play.

[Eldan]

The way I see this going?

The modern army wipes out pretty much every mundane creature in D&D land. Then, only the casters and a handful of monster species are left. And of those, only the smart ones.

From then on? Interplanar guerilla warfare waged by near-immortal teleporting ethereal minions.

The problem here is that D&D has access to several other worlds, all infinite in size, none of which can be reached by the modern army, while the wizards can pop back and forth at will and start the shadowcalypse.

[Averis Vol]

OP specified only the prime material plane, so they do not have access to an infinite amount of planes that will start the shadowpocalypse. so, come to think of it actually, are there any naturally existing incorporeal/ethereal beings that are native to the prime material plane? I do not believe there are.

[Eldan]

Several kinds of undead, I'd assume?

But yeah, I forgot that clause.

That said, can any of hte spellcasters get Genesis going (for a normal world, not some super-time plane of pure anti-osmium or whatever), or does that go against the no other planes clause?

[Averis Vol]

I would have to believe so, a demiplane is still a plane. And yes, i secede the incorporeal/ethereal point, i took a quick browse through the MM and a ghosts environment is temperate plains :smallannoyed: apparently they like the breeze.

[Gwendol]

Nope inferred is still light which can be bent by invisibilty. In 2.0 they had infravision. Invisibilty trumpt it.

Now lets say I'm a Lich, even if I get killed I'll be back as I could hide my phylactery beyond the reach of modern world humans. What if I'm a 30th level wizard and can cast, Rain Of Fire. 1 fire damage a round to all creatures in a 2 mile radius for 20 hours.

That may be true for infravision but not for IR cameras. Even if invisibility works against IR (by making the surface of the object always identical to the backround) the environment stills warms up enough to reveal the location of the person, or whatever.

I believe cases can be constructed in which D&D wins, but in general tge modern army would defeat nearly everything.

[Amoren]

That may be true for infravision but not for IR cameras. Even if invisibility works against IR (by making the surface of the object always identical to the backround) the environment stills warms up enough to reveal the location of the person, or whatever.

I believe cases can be constructed in which D&D wins, but in general tge modern army would defeat nearly everything.

At least in a straight up fight.

[Eldan]

I believe the straight-up is the problem, yeah. If D&D wizards were to build their base a few miles under ground, or on the moon, or in a Magnificient Mansion, how would the military fight them? What if they had permanency-ed walls of force surrounding their base? There's many ways they could build a headquarter that can't be easily reached, without resorting to other planes.

Air, food and drink are no issue for the casters at all, and they can easily retreat to their base whenever they need to.

[Telonius]

Another possible outcome ... quick first strike by the Terrans, followed by a surrender by a smart Lawful Evil D&D ruler. Over the next few years, materials mysteriously "disappear" from the occupying force, and the Artificers get to work on duplicating them. Pretty soon it's not modern world vs. D&D, it's modern world vs. Warhammer. Either D&D wins in a quick decapitation strike, or a long, drawn-out guerilla campaign. (Forum rules prevent specific mentions, but you can probably think of a few real-world instances where technologically inferior foes have bled out a superior occupying force).

[Lord Vukodlak]

That may be true for infravision but not for IR cameras. Even if invisibility works against IR (by making the surface of the object always identical to the backround) the environment stills warms up enough to reveal the location of the person, or whatever.

IR is short for Infrared vision its the same damn thing. And its a wave length of light thus bending light to be invisible would work. If you don't know how IR works its best not to use it in an argument.


At least in a straight up fight.
Which the small group against the large army has no motivation to take part in.

[Aharon]

As far as I know, there is precisely one, and it applies to physical attacks only. A sufficiently leveled ninja can strike material from ethereal. To my knowledge, no other race, class, feat, spell, or other feature offers this capability.

EDIT: Also, Savage species is 3.0, and the OP stated 3.5 rules.

There's another one: one of the relics in MIC (Robe of [some God], Nerull IIRC) allows your spells to affect the material plane while ethereal, for 11 rounds per day.

[Gwendol]

Again, there are instances where a modern army will have no effective means of operating, yet, for the most part the favor is in their court. And besides casters, the D&D world will offer limited resistance.

[Amoren]

Which the small group against the large army has no motivation to take part in.

I was talking more on a kingdom vs army sort of thing. Or multiple kingdoms, as a RL army probably has the means to decapitate entire feudal era kingdoms at once with a few air strikes to raze castles and shock troopers to take the king's castle.

Although it occurs to me that the Real Earth army might bribe artificers with examples of their technology in return for infusions and what not to help counter DnD's wizards and monsters. The chance to examine a black berry would have an artificer drooling at the prospect, after all.

[Gwendol]

IR is short for Infrared vision its the same damn thing. And its a wave length of light thus bending light to be invisible would work. If you don't know how IR works its best not to use it in an argument.


Which the small group against the large army has no motivation to take part in.

LOL! I know how IR works, but if you think bending light around the invisible object will hide it from IR you are sorely mistaken. I've worked with FLIR cameras for a couple of years developing advanced applications for pharma industry.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Again, there are instances where a modern army will have no effective means of operating, yet, for the most part the favor is in their court. And besides casters, the D&D world will offer limited resistance.

No for the most part its in magic's court, as the casters can use their magic to to secretly usurp control of the modern army. Remaining complety unnoticed behind magical disguises and magic jars.

The modern army loses without ever knowing it went to war.


LOL! I know how IR works, but if you think bending light around the invisible object will hide it from IR you are sorely mistaken. I've worked with FLIR cameras for a couple of years developing advanced applications for pharma industry.

Obviously you don't know how it works, Infrared is a wave length of light, if it could be bent around an object you would render it invisible to that spectrem. In real life they were actually able to bend infrared light around an object making it invisible to IR. its apparently easier then the normal light spectrum.

[Acanous]

Satellites- They'd work (A little) for Defense, but are going to be next to useless offensively.
How many years did it take to get our current satellite network going? How many years *After* we'd established a launch site and run the math on how to keep them in orbit?

D&Dland might not even be a spherical planet!
If that's the case, a lot of modern instrumentation is going to need to be readjusted for the environment (Those KM range weapons adjust for the rotation of the earth. Seriously.) before it becomes accurate enough again.

Cities will be occupied and fall. Countries will surrender. But there's going to be a level 6 wizard in a hut somewhere that gets wise, chats up a soldier one day while doing his gardening, sneaks into the portal VIA Hat of Disguise, and Locate City Bombs Shanghai.

He could get what, 3 cities per day? How many days 'till we've been bombed back to the stone age, with zero fallout from the D&D wizard?

How could we even tell who did it? Dude's over in Texas LCBing new york. (The range on it is sick.)
No way to tell who did it. No missile is fired, no satellite imaging is going to go through every person on the planet trying to pick up one guy making weird hand motions in a shed.

Yeah, it'll end in guerilla warfare, and in favor of the D&Dverse, unless every single caster is assassinated in a pre-emptive strike.

[Gwendol]

No for the most part its in magic's court, as the casters can use their magic to to secretly usurp control of the modern army. Remaining complety unnoticed behind magical disguises and magic jars.

The modern army loses without ever knowing it went to war.



Obviously you don't know how it works, Infrared is a wave length of light, if it could be bent around an object you would render it invisible to that spectrem. In real life they were actually able to bend infrared light around an object making it invisible to IR. its apparently easier then the normal light spectrum.

I'd prefer if you stop dictating what I do and do not understand.

Contrary to visible light, all objects emit heat. Bending light makes it more difficult to detect, but you will still pick up the indirect radiation caused by the object emitting/absorbing radiation.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'd prefer if you stop dictating what I do and do not understand.

You claim that you can't make an object invisible to infrared by bending light around it. This is completely false because infrared is a spectrem of light and they've already managed to bend infrared around an object in real life making it invisible to IR sensors.

[Amoren]

I think he's making the argument that the body warmth of what was being made invisible would still heat up the air around it, which would, in turn, emit infrared light and be detected. Of course, you could argue expanding the invisibility field to include this too, but then would that cover the 'hot' foot prints left by the target walking? And he'd be leaving a pretty obvious 'clipping' of invisibility around him.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think he's making the argument that the body warmth of what was being made invisible would still heat up the air around it, which would, in turn, emit infrared light and be detected. Of course, you could argue expanding the invisibility field to include this too, but then would that cover the 'hot' foot prints left by the target walking? And he'd be leaving a pretty obvious 'clipping' of invisibility around him.

Thats what levitation or insultated shoes are for, and most infrared sensors aren't set up to look for peoples footprints. The damage that could be done before they learn to point them down would be astronomical.

The fact remains they have made an object invisble to IR in real life through bending that spectrem of light. And many creatures would have no body heat to being with such as an invisible stalker.

[Gwendol]

Thats what levitation or insultated shoes are for, and most infrared sensors aren't set up to look for peoples footprints. The damage that could be done before they learn to point them down would be astronomical.

The fact remains they have made an object invisble to IR in real life through bending that spectrem of light. And many creatures would have no body heat to being with such as an invisible stalker.

Picking footprints several minutes after passing through is trivial. The detectors are extremely sensitive.

You claim this without providing any reference. It's not exactly providing a compelling argument.

[Wookie-ranger]

Not ethereal.

shadow then.




Explosive energy damage, comprised of a decent amount of fire damage.
IRL explosions don't have flames. None. Its not like the movies. A modern day explosive is pure concussive force and shrapnel (and some times molten peaces of metal like white phosphorus used in ww2 or copper in an rpg. It might be possible to think of it as sonic/piercing.



Invisibility does nothing against IR goggles.
In the good old days of Infra-vision you were also invisible against detection by 'heat-vision'. So there is the president that invisibility protects against that, too. For the people that like references: R.A.Salvatore; Dark elf trilogy, Home land.


fighter jets would come deliver and go before anyone in D&D has a chance to react.
there is a spell for that. Also, how would they know where to strike? modern day weapons are very small (excluding big nukes). Also, make the D&D base underground, very deep underground, like close enough to the core to need a Zone of Elemental Immunity (stronghold builder's guide, p.86). Not a weapon on the world can get you there. Might as well make your base on the moon while you are at it.


Also an army can fight until it runs out of ammo which essentially means casters are all eventually owned.
US infantry standard load out is 7 magazines (6 to carry, 1 in the rifle), that's 'only' 210 rounds. Ammo is really heavy and also needs to be resupplied, as does food, water, etc.
many D&D creatures don't need to eat, breath, or sleep (win for warforged/undead). And if a caster wants to rest, he can rope trick, teleport, plane shift, etc.


Modern artillery shoots beyond the horizon if needed, at a range where most casters can't retaliate.Actually, the limited range of spells will make them almost useless.
again, if you don't know where to shot, the biggest bullet is useless. A mage can simple fly over head, invisible, cast spells, teleport/plane shift/etc out. As said: make the D&D base underground, very deep underground, like close enough to the core to need a Zone of Elemental Immunity (stronghold builder's guide, p.86). Not a weapon on the world can get you there. Might as well make your base on the moon while you are at it.


Incorporeals would be tough to counter though.
so, in other words: D&D has a type of creature that is utterly unbeatable by the Terrans. That kind of sounds to me like D&D wins, does it not.


D&D Army vs. Modern day Army?
I read the tread. Lots of good posts. But seriously, how could you ever think that the Terrans even chance?
Terrans have no SR, no magical defenses and no lead lined buildings. Just to name a few problems their defenses lack. They simply will not be able to protect themselves against spells. while D&D have soooo many things to protect against none magical attacks.
Terrans need food, water, air, sleep, wast management; all those annoying little human things that magic can solve. Or simply being warforged or necropolitan (or other undead).
Terrans need transportation, resupplying, refueling, run out of ammo; magic to the rescue, Magic can transport anything, anywhere in no time (sorry, 6 seconds). moon? you got it! the other side of the freaking universe? same thing. instant travel with unlimited distance!
Terrans take ages to heal: there is a spell for that. Many actually, that can cure anything that you can think of, including death.




Give me one 20 level wizard and the entire world would be wrecked; probably in about a week or so. If you optimize this wizard to be the World Destroyer then it could probably be done in a day; or 1 round if you allow enough rule bending (no cheese needed).

1: be necropolitan
2: cast greater teleport to the moon(does not have to be our moon)/orbit/outer space
3: look at the puny little planet that gets on your nerves
4: make plans
5: ...
6: profit, and the destruction of the entire planet


If you think this is too cheese, which it is actually not, here are some spells that would make a 'traditional' war much easier for D&D:
How would D&D simply win (ONLY srd):
Alter Self , Animate Dead , Antilife Shell , Antipathy , Arcane Eye , Astral Projection , Augury , Baleful Polymorph , Charm Person , Clairaudience/Clairvoyance , Comprehend Languages , Contact Other Plane , Contingency , Control Water , Control Weather , Control Winds , Create Food and Water , Cure Light Wounds , Deep Slumber , Demand , Detect Thoughts , Dimension Door , Discern Lies , Discern Location , Disguise Self , Disintegrate , Dominate Person , Earthquake , Etherealness , Explosive Runes , Fly , Forcecage , Hallucinatory Terrain , Hold Person , Ice Storm , Illusory Wall , Incendiary Cloud , Insect Plague , Invisibility, Greater , Iron Body , Knock , Legend Lore , Limited Wish , Locate Creature , Locate Object , Magic Jar , Magic Missile , Major Creation , Major Image , Make Whole , Meld into Stone , Meteor Swarm , Miracle , Mirage Arcana , Modify Memory , Move Earth , Neutralize Poison , Overland Flight , Passwall , Pass without Trace , Permanency , Permanent Image , Persistent Image , Planar Binding , Plane Shift , Plant Growth , Polymorph , Polymorph Any Object , Prestidigitation , Regenerate , Repel Metal or Stone , Rope Trick , Scrying , Shambler , Shapechange , Silence , Simulacrum , Soften Earth and Stone , Speak with Dead , Summon Monster I (etc), Telepathic Bond , Teleport , Teleportation Circle , Temporal Stasis , Time Stop , True Resurrection , Wall of Stone (etc), Water Breathing , Wish

A short list of spells taken only from srd:
Animate Dead : scare the general civilian population with a real zombie invasion. Its only a few, and they wont increase in numbers, but just think about the panic. What is a very bad thing for country in war? An internal panic.
Astral Projection : ever want some one to appear un-killable? It would be fun to have your projection killed right in front of enemy soldiers a dozen times or so; just to see the terror in their ranks when they face a foe they simply cannot kill.
Charm Person : perfect interrogation only a spell away.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: who needs satellite images when you can literally look in your enemies bedroom.
Comprehend Languages : secret code? Enigma? Meh, its all language :)
Control Weather : there are too many uses to list.
Cure Light Wounds : years of med school? Meh...
Detect Thoughts : negotiations? Sure :)
Discern Lies : see above
Discern Location : super secret bunker to hide in? No such thing.
Disintegrate : bunker? what bunker?
Etherealness : invisible, intangible, untouchable and can walk though walls. seriously, what bunker?
Fly : airplane? how retro.
Magic Jar : you, me, he, she; where am I now!?!? the D&D cup game.
Magic Missile : short range gun that: has 30 rounds, never misses, and weighs only a few oz? Wand.
Teleportation Circle : need to move troops? Make it permanent, beats being stuck on a plane/ship for hours on end
Speak with Dead : see charm person

[StreamOfTheSky]

1. There is no ethereal plane or other planes in the real world, so any creatures that hail from them or spells to travel to them are not going to be useful. Nor is Gate.

2. Incorporeal is still a possibility, and is probably the D&D side's only chance of winning.

3. The modern armies have nuclear weapons, carpet bombing, missile barrages... Anything that's corporeal and gives away its location, or a several mile radius area that it's within "somewhere" is dead dead dead DEAD.

I don't know why anyone even bothers to discuss modern troops or noncaster D&D characters. This all comes down to small group of casters trying to remain undiscovered and utilizing incorporeal creatures, locate city bombs, and so forth vs. a giant stockpile of super-long ranged instant death with a area of effect of "you say they're somewhere in Orange county, eh? Good enough."

EDIT: Re-read the OP. I was assuming band of D&D guys invading the real world. Modern army trying to invade the D&D world would be the most laughable slaughter ever witnessed by god or man. But I think the modern army could fight off D&D invaders, at least. Their world will be pretty bad off for it, but better than utter annihilation. So...not sure why nukes are banned. What about other absurdly large explosives that aren't technically nukes?

[Gwendol]

Heat radiation or not, unless it does not consist of matter it is susceptible to detection and damage. Casters take too long to complete spells, are too easily disrupted, and still need to rest to resupply their spells. In the end the modern army wins.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm going to throw something in here myself. the OP said that D&D doesn't exist in our world, and the ONLY time a wizard will come up with all these ridiculous plans is when nerds do, in fact, interact with the game world in such a manner that they would single handedly bend the world over its knee and make it their bitch. look at any of the published high level wizards, there is absolutely no wizard that prepares these combos. So i submit that the wizard WILL use fireball and there will not be CoDzillas running around to such a degree as high op play.

This might have some relevance. Not only would the real world not know about dnd stuff, the dnd-world wouldn't know how the real-world worked. I bet they would spend at least a bit of energy trying to Dispel radios and guns, wondering why nothing has a magical aura on it, and why they can't see bullets midair. The dnd-world might even hold off on some of the higher-level tactics, assuming the real world has countermeasures. Half the population has holy symbols dangling from their necks, and these people believe very firmly in their God, so they must have Clerics somewhere! Real-world has holy water and churches in every town, so the dnd-verse might assume that ghosts wouldn't work.

Also, I'm starting to wonder how how long it would take the dnd-world's 20th level Wizards (however few there are) to actually decide to start fighting. The way we assume they'll immediately respond to the real-world (with extreme violence, and brilliant optimized tactics totally unprecedented in dnd conflict), they haven't even started to do with Hell, or even the Far Realm, which have been very active threats to the Prime Material since before time itself. The real world, as the OP stated, is not even trying to eliminate all life, so it will definitely be given lower priority than Hell (i.e. Wizards do not immediately unite and wreck havoc. It's treated like any other mortal conflict).

[Wookie-ranger]

1. There is no ethereal plane or other planes in the real world, so any creatures that hail from them or spells to travel to them are not going to be useful. Nor is Gate.

actually, summoning specific beings is possible by the rules set forth by OP.


Prime Material plane only, beyond specifically summoning outsiders(Abyssal Army works, but opening a gate to the abyss and letting them swarm
bold mine




3. The modern armies have nuclear weapons, carpet bombing, missile barrages... Anything that's corporeal and gives away its location, or a several mile radius area that it's within "somewhere" is dead dead dead DEAD.


Casters take too long to complete spells, are too easily disrupted, and still need to rest to resupply their spells. In the end the modern army wins.

we are talking about a being that does not need to breath, eat, sleep, lifed for a few centuries, has an IQ that is unmeasurable by our standards and can freaking teleport ANY DISTANCE.
you really think that this being would simply sit around and wait, or do you think that it would go to a place where nothing can harm it. Again, the moon would be my choice. Probably the center of the moon.

[Gwendol]

I don't think IQ and INT are comparable. Anyone from Arstoteles to Einstein weren't exactly morons.

[CTrees]

You guys are making this way more complex than it really is. D&D world just needs to send in a handful of diplomancers, teleporting to the appropriate soon-to-be fanatics.

Easier, a low level social character can easily infiltrate, then make the check to start revolutions. Population center in active revolution means organized military response is going to be nonexistent.

[Aux-Ash]

Wookie-ranger: I thought you added an interesting list there and actually tried to analyze why the dnd team would win. Which is a good way to approach the problem. But to argue some of your proposed points (looking up spell limits directly from the SRD):



Charm Person : perfect interrogation only a spell away.

Correct me if I am wrong... but there's nothing inherent in the spell that suggests he'd want to betray his other friends and allies. Is there? You still actually have to convince him to betray his own homeland and collegues, even if he considers you a friend now.


Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: who needs satellite images when you can literally look in your enemies bedroom.

The fact that's it's max range is 800 meters at level 20 makes it considerably less impressive. And that's if it's enlarged.
And you have to know of the place too. So you actually have to know where it is to look to look there.


Comprehend Languages : secret code? Enigma? Meh, its all language :)
Does specifically not reveal hidden messages or decipher codes.


Control Weather : there are too many uses to list.
Cure Light Wounds : years of med school? Meh...
Detect Thoughts : negotiations? Sure :)
Discern Lies : see above

These is very useful, yes.


Discern Location : super secret bunker to hide in? No such thing.

You must have an item belonging to the person you wish to find or have seen him or her. Alternatively have interacted with the object you seek. It does not actually allow you to find a location, it allows you to find the location of something you have interacted with.


Disintegrate : bunker? what bunker?

The one surrounding the 10 squarefoot cube you destroyed. You didn't destroy the bunker... you made a man-sized hole in the wall or the door.
Moreover, range of maximum 200 m (600') if enlargened means you're well within the safety perimeter.


Etherealness : invisible, intangible, untouchable and can walk though walls. seriously, what bunker?
This is incredibly useful. Fair point.


Fly : airplane? how retro.
You'd think so. Except you're limited to a flyspeed of 60 ft/round or 10 ft/second. In other words 3 m/s or 9 km/h. Your amazing flight is thus only twice as fast as a normal fit person walking.
Overland flight allows you to travel faster yes. 8 miles an hour. 12,6 km/h.

Those retro airplanes? Combat aircraft can easily beat 340 m/s. Approximately 1020'/s or 6120 feet per round.
Transports are of course slower. 540 km/h is common. 150 m/s. 450 ft/s or 2700 ft/round.

Certainly, fly and it's variant gives the caster a nifty ability to move. But I wouldn't say it makes aircraft obsolete. After all, the slower of my two examples is 43 times faster than a level 20 wizard.


Magic Jar : you, me, he, she; where am I now!?!? the D&D cup game.
Umm... you still have to park your body within 200 meters (600 ft) if enlargened. And if you are outside of that range when the spell ends... you die. Good for spying in a stationary location I guess. But you'd have to be real careful.


Magic Missile : short range gun that: has 30 rounds, never misses, and weighs only a few oz? Wand.
Short range indeed. Enlargened it only reaches 200 m. Useful no doubt, but not that much of a deal breaker.


Teleportation Circle : need to move troops? Make it permanent, beats being stuck on a plane/ship for hours on end
A 5 ft radius though. So you can only move a squad at a time.
You can also not send them anywhere you don't know where it is. So you must have had a good description of the target location or have been there yourself. Same limitation as greater teleport have.

Useful, yes. But not so impossibly powerful as it seem at first glance.


Speak with Dead : see charm person

Hmmm... 10 questions and limited to what the body knows. Still, useful to be sure.

I'd love to argue the rest of your list (and anyone elses) but I need people to explain why they think that spell is so significant in terms of resolving a conflict.

[awa]

your giving the real world way to much credit historically modern armies have had a very hard time fighting guerrillas even when they had an absolute technological advantage.

if those guerrillas could shape change, teleport and turn any soldier into a double agent you cant possible believe that situation would make it easier. even worse the guerrilla war would be fought within our own borders becuase teleport laughs at the idea of a front line.

one bard with glibness, some ranks of bluff and a hat of disguise could decimate an entire army.

No those arnt your own men their evil wizards you better nuke em.
Of course im the president, you trust me right? also we need to go kill that imposter sitting in the white house you can trust me would the president lie to you?

glibness is a personal spell so range dosent go on tv and use your magic lying spell to make the entire country rebel.

[Ashtagon]

I think people tend to underestimate the sheer amount of pierce that modern rounds can have have when compared to what DnD has rules for- black powder muskets?
Compare that to a .50 BMG high precision rifle round.
Snipers would be endgame.


Modern guns causing tissue damage, and can shatter bones creating bone shards that can cause secondary injuries. They definitely don't do "hp damage".

D&D characters only die if hit by enough hp damage (or if hit by "save or die" effects, which real life doesn't have either). As such, Team D&D is immune to Team Modern's weapons.

Yeah right. We need to assume some kind of rules compatibility here.

[Amoren]

You guys are making this way more complex than it really is. D&D world just needs to send in a handful of diplomancers, teleporting to the appropriate soon-to-be fanatics.

Easier, a low level social character can easily infiltrate, then make the check to start revolutions. Population center in active revolution means organized military response is going to be nonexistent.

Once again, I argue for the defender uses their rules of reality. In this case, it'll take months just to get any real fanatics going, and it'll likely only reach the level of a small cult with very little, if any, financial backing. Because, after all, people on real Earth would not behave like nondescript NPCs who fall victim to diplomacy checks. They are real people who will behave in real ways, like PCs (which are typically immune to diplomacy checks), and won't start a riot because that one guy talked really fancy or jumped reaaaallly high.

Or else we get to the fact that all spells to defend against bullets are meaningless because some of the higher calibers will kill you from their AIR WAKE ALONE.

[Ashtagon]

Huh, that's odd. Rereading damage reduction on d20srd.org says that damage can be negated completely by damage reduction. Yet, the last time I saw damage reduction referenced with this case before just now was for a feat in Draconomicon, which read, “You gain damage reduction 2/-. This stacks with any damage reduction you have from other sources. Damage reduction cannot reduce damage below 0.” That combined with how my last long running game table played it, seemed to indicate that you always deal at least one damage despite damage reduction.

Was it changed between 3.0 and 3.5 or something?

"DR cannot reduce damage below zero." That much is true. It does not say damage cannot be reduced to zero exactly.

[Treblain]

Allips cause Wisdom damage to anyone trying to control them. Not a popular choice for casters unless they're desperate.

On shadows (and other propagating undead): if the Terrans are non-magical, therefore they can't become undead because that would make them magical creatures. Yeah, that's a little wonky reasoning, but it's good enough to curb that line of thought so we don't have to waste time discussing issues that clearly don't occur in the D&D setting in the first place.

On any approach by the D&D side to use stealth, subterfuge, etc, great, but the only fair way to have this scenario is if both sides become aware of each other at the same time, so you can't start the scenario with "high-level wizard teleports in and shapeshifts into the president for a year before the conflict begins".

[Amoren]

On any approach by the D&D side to use stealth, subterfuge, etc, great, but the only fair way to have this scenario is if both sides become aware of each other at the same time, so you can't start the scenario with "high-level wizard teleports in and shapeshifts into the president for a year before the conflict begins".

Actually, OP stated that Earth struck first and has gotten the lead, with a base controlling the DnD side of the portal. As I've argued before, it's likely that the Terran army has already acquired information on the political situation in the DnD lands, and assessed some of their capacities.

[Gwendol]

Regarding the OP: why no nukes? Tactical nukes are fairly limited in range, neutron bombs would just kill the living, etc. Besides, what would be holding the invading terrans back? The Geneva convention?

[Amoren]

Regarding the OP: why no nukes? Tactical nukes are fairly limited in range, neutron bombs would just kill the living, etc. Besides, what would be holding the invading terrans back? The Geneva convention?

They want to inhabit the land they're conquering. Nukes tend to deny the land to both sides for several decades, if not more.

[Namfuak]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this so far as I can tell. Explosions deal force damage. Therefore, incorporeal creatures are affected by the blast from tank rounds, missiles, artillery, etc. Arguably, high calibur rifles and machine guns exert enough force to be considered to have a secondary force effect.

On invisibility - the spell mentions that you can be detected by being heard, and that if you step in a puddle or something you cause it to have ripples and can be detected that way, so sonar/motion detectors should work. We don't know enough about the spell to know if IR would work against it, so probably it's better to just assume it won't.

I'm interested though, how do we know that modern people will fail saving throws? In terms of power, someone like a soldier is going to be much stronger (and therefore higher level) than a civilian, so who's to say that their base saves aren't fairly high?

I feel like we've gotten to the crux of it though. Mundane D&D armies, even with a few low level spellcasters, won't have a snowball's chance in hell. Midlevel characters and monsters may have a better shot if they use guerrilla tactics, but even that is still going to be risky. High level characters are already practically demigods, so it starts to depend on their strategy and how optimized they are. As someone mentioned, if wizards/dragons used the kind of strategies that WotC originally intended them to use, they are going to get smashed six ways to Sunday even at level 20. If they use ridiculous ninth level spells and combos to win, they will probably win, since there just isn't anything we have that could prepare us against that.

[Gwendol]

They want to inhabit the land they're conquering. Nukes tend to deny the land to both sides for several decades, if not more.

That depends on the nuke.

[Flickerdart]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this so far as I can tell. Explosions deal force damage.
[citation needed]

[chainlink]

Both opponents would defend their respective sides. Well depending if magic/Su works on the other side.

Terran are hindered offensively. No maps, satellites or intel. That severely cripples modern warfare. If the smart monsters where helping that alone would make maintaining an offensive base difficult. Diseases, undead, possession etc are all things we have no defense against. At least not soon enough.

Terrain would be hell vs ground assets and munitions/tanks/troops cannot be easily flown to sensitive points due to lack of infrastructure. Heli's would be very vulnerable to even a wyvern if it was an ambush.

If assets like the Tarrasque or other such engines of destruction could be harnessed or directed the task of maintaining a logistical toehold in a hostile plane would be impossible due to brute force alone. Not talking about ghosts/shadows/allips etc.

No, the terrans would need to spew death through the portal and sterilize a large area and commit an immense amount of resources to even get a chance to "see" what they are up against. The necessary infrastructure for tech is slow to set up.

If outsiders can exist and use their abilities on the other side of the portal? D&D wins. The OP specifically said Gate works. Gate to the Abyss and wait. That's if they work over there though.

And that's the brute force way. D&D world has so many options that's the thing. Not even touching 1 angry druid vs military base, and that's just the start.

For D&D invasion. Not sure. That's a big campaign to design :smallbiggrin:.

[Namfuak]

[citation needed]

OK, let me rephrase that. If we were to translate the AOE damage from heavy ordinance (tank rounds, missiles, etc) into D&D elemental damage, force would be the most appropriate.

[maglag]

D&D definetely wins, but I think the bigger question here is when did the forces of D&D started uniting against a common foe?

If Bob the necromancer starts unleashing incorporeal undeads on the modern world, then you can bet Billy the cleric of Pelor won't be exactly overjoyed with this, and will call a crusade or something to fight the undead onslaught.

So I think a better question is what faction of D&D the modern world chooses to side up with.

After all, there are plenty of bandits and orc/goblin tribes in D&D land that manage to survive whitout high level casters or similar stuff. They try to stay under the radar, or make pacts with bigger stuff.


I'm surprised no one has mentioned this so far as I can tell. Explosions deal force damage. Therefore, incorporeal creatures are affected by the blast from tank rounds, missiles, artillery, etc. Arguably, high calibur rifles and machine guns exert enough force to be considered to have a secondary force effect.

Definetely citation needed. After all, even an ubercharger dealing enough damage to cut a tank in half still doesn't count as a force effect unless he has some special magic weapon.



I'm interested though, how do we know that modern people will fail saving throws? In terms of power, someone like a soldier is going to be much stronger (and therefore higher level) than a civilian, so who's to say that their base saves aren't fairly high?

Drop the best soldiers in the world, naked, into a pool of lava. Can they swim back to safety trough the molten rock? If not, then they're still fairly low level.

[awa]

force is in no way similar to explosions. explosive spell does not deal force damge. magic missile the most iconic force spell only affect creatures not objects. explosions can be made into indestructible walls (in fact most force effects create semi solid objects).

explosions would either be blunt damge, fire or untyped.

in regards to diplomancers their are numerous historical examples of people attracting numerous followers forming armies and overthrowing governments and they were mere mortals not people who are so persuasive they can convince a man to kill his whole family in less then 6 seconds

and if you say we need to follow the physics of the world being attacked then your guns are going to have to follow the rules for dnd weapons. armor penetration does nothing against armor becuase armor just makes you harder to hit you cant see anything more then a few hundred feet away becuase of spot penalties.

[Ashtagon]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this so far as I can tell. Explosions deal force damage...

http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/internet-o_rlyeh.jpg

[Namfuak]

Definetely citation needed. After all, even an ubercharger dealing enough damage to cut a tank in half still doesn't count as a force effect unless he has some special magic weapon.

An ubercharger doesn't deal AoE damage. We've established that heavy ordinance has an AoE effect, so it must deal some sort of damage. Force is the most appropriate type.


Drop the best soldiers in the world, naked, into a pool of lava. Can they swim back to safety trough the molten rock? If not, then they're still fairly low level.

This makes an assumption that lava in D&D acts the same way as lava in real life. In fact, I would say this point probably shows exactly why this argument is going to go around in circles. Lava in real life is so hot, you will most likely die just from standing within five feet of a significant amount. Even with no clothes on, your hair will catch on fire and you will get significant burns. Getting dropped into it doesn't have a 1/18 chance of not killing you within six seconds (commoner has 4 health, lava deals 2d6 per round, one one and a two or a one does not kill in one round). So, either commoners, by virtue of the fact that they exist in the D&D world, are more resilient to something that they have no stated resistance to than any person in our world, or lava in D&D is simply not as deadly as lava in the real world. The second option leads us to the conclusion that we really don't know exactly how deadly anything is in the D&D world to a terran, so saying how much HP a terran has is kind of an effort in futility.

However, the first option leads us to the conclusion that the terrans are weaker than the weakest possible sentient humanoid in the D&D world. Or, possibly, we aren't even the same kind of thing. Technically we would have the outsider type, since we are from a different plane. We don't have one outsider hit dice though, nor do we have any class hit dice, so according to D&D rules all of our stats are --, I guess (which would make us all immune to effects that grant a save). Or we are all wights.


http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/internet-o_rlyeh.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/drlaunch/albums/37656/ya-rly001.jpg

At first people were saying they dealt fire damage. And as you can see, some people don't agree with me.

[Little Brother]

An ubercharger doesn't deal AoE damage. We've established that heavy ordinance has an AoE effect, so it must deal some sort of damage. Force is the most appropriate type. The pressure wave is sonic. At best. Might be plain old bludgeoning.

[Gwendol]

Both opponents would defend their respective sides. Well depending if magic/Su works on the other side.

Terran are hindered offensively. No maps, satellites or intel. That severely cripples modern warfare. If the smart monsters where helping that alone would make maintaining an offensive base difficult. Diseases, undead, possession etc are all things we have no defense against. At least not soon enough.

Terrain would be hell vs ground assets and munitions/tanks/troops cannot be easily flown to sensitive points due to lack of infrastructure. Heli's would be very vulnerable to even a wyvern if it was an ambush.

If assets like the Tarrasque or other such engines of destruction could be harnessed or directed the task of maintaining a logistical toehold in a hostile plane would be impossible due to brute force alone. Not talking about ghosts/shadows/allips etc.

No, the terrans would need to spew death through the portal and sterilize a large area and commit an immense amount of resources to even get a chance to "see" what they are up against. The necessary infrastructure for tech is slow to set up.

If outsiders can exist and use their abilities on the other side of the portal? D&D wins. The OP specifically said Gate works. Gate to the Abyss and wait. That's if they work over there though.

And that's the brute force way. D&D world has so many options that's the thing. Not even touching 1 angry druid vs military base, and that's just the start.

For D&D invasion. Not sure. That's a big campaign to design :smallbiggrin:.

So, you're essentially looking at a Stargate type invasion? A bunch of grunts with handarms and nothing that makes a modern army modern? Then yes, that would tilt the scale quite heavily. But then again, that would be a different kind of discussion.

A different example to HP would be INT. Thousands of years of civilization and we're still looking at horses and carts? Really? Not even steam engines or gunpowder?
Meanwhile, we've got the terrans, who can split the atom, and more.

[Aux-Ash]

If outsiders can exist and use their abilities on the other side of the portal? D&D wins. The OP specifically said Gate works. Gate to the Abyss and wait. That's if they work over there though.

Ummm... according to the SRD Gate can only be held open by a level 20 wizard for 2 minutes and that's if the caster actively concentrate on holding it open or summon 20 HD of beings (or a specific being up to 40 HD, but you can only control up to 20 HD). Moreover, the gate can only be 5-20 ft in diameter, so you can't bring armies through every round. Only a handful of individuals. And since you actively have to keep it open... it cannot be allowed to be in range for artillery or within 2 minutes of airstrikes (since they can zero in on it. Destroying everything as it comes through).
Finally, the mage have to be within 100 m (300 ft) himself. That's within the blast radius of heavier munitions.

So I'm questioning the supposed effectivness of this move. It can certainly bring in extra troops. But no more than 20 or the number of beings that can cross the gate in 2 minutes.
Useful? No doubt.
Gamebreaker? That would depend on the number of lvl 17+ casters, wouldn't it?

I suppose the caster could, hypothetically, sign a conctract with whatever he summoned for an army. The question is... what would the summonee ask for in return for an army?

Moreover, if you do bring in something not under your control that in turn summons more things on it's own. Wouldn't that effectively be the same thing as nuking the place? Which was specifically outlawed?

[Wookie-ranger]

OK, let me rephrase that. If we were to translate the AOE damage from heavy ordinance (tank rounds, missiles, etc) into D&D elemental damage, force would be the most appropriate.

Not really. At least i don't think so. An explosion works on the rapid movement of gas expanding outward. Force is pure magical energy.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_forcedamage&alpha=
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_sonicattack&alpha=S


About allowing monsters with class levels to partake in the fighting:
That would be the "i win" button of the "i win" buttons. Give me one beholder-mage, just one. Or why not a few?




Also:
Why no moon base (in the center of the moon that is; and it does not have to be our moon)? It wouldn't be very hard for a necropolitan Wiz20 to greater teleport up there, dig a bit down, make a nice little base, and simply observe for ages before making a move.
like Teleport in cast a few spells, like Fimbulwinter or similar large scale spells in the Agricultural areas of the world and simply starve the entire population to death.
This does not mean that the Terrans aren't aware of him; but what are they gone do about it?

We are not talking about medieval warfare were 2 factions simply line up and say "go". No trench-warfare. This is asymmetric fighting at its prime. Sure, at the beginning both sides will make mistakes. like trying to dispel a radio, or scientifically analyzing a wand. But after a while both sides will know what their respective opponent can and cannot do.
And i have to say, there are very few thinks that a group of level 20 Characters cannot do. And even a stupid (low Int) sorcerer would figure out that going head on with twenty Abrams is a bad idea. a smart wizard (high Int) would get the idea faster, retreat (which would be VERY easy for him) and come bad with the right spells prepared (again, from his moon base). I fully believe that in the end D&D would win.

[Madcrafter]

Explosions would deal bludgeoning IMHO.

And I still don't exactly see how Terrans get first strike. You'd think that mystical invaders from another dimension might show up in the divinations.

Right now I have no doubt that D&D would win. I'm trying to think through the absolute worse case scenario for them (which does expand on the original postulates a bit):
Start: Terrans arrive, spend billions to bomb D&Dland to hell. D&Dland is now assumed to be a rock devoid of all life and objects, with no significant terrain features. Some time later someone will come back to life, be it a lich, or anyone with a contingent resurrection. There are likely to be many of these (usual worlds seem to have a high lich density, and any caster worth their salt probably has some kind of plan for dealing with premature death), but for the scenario's sake, there is only one. To further this, they will be first level, a sorcerer (or easy bake wizard if you really prefer), and named Bob.

There are a few assumptions that go along with this, first of which is that Bob has some knowledge of the capabilities of those he is fighting against. Depending on his method of death, he may not, which is unfortunate and likely means he would die sneaking into the base, but we assume he does. The only spells he needs are Silent Image, and probably True Strike or maybe ray of enfeeblement (something to either harm or debilitate people). Bob is a little better than your average Joe, and has 12 charisma, giving him a bonus spell slot. With these two spells 4 times/day (not including his cantrips), a knife (stolen), and some ingenuity (aka, knowing how to use Silent Image to its full potential), he can probably kill one or two soldiers a day, and stay alive.

There is some more assumptions and parts of the scenario, but I'm to lazy to type it up right now. Suffice it to say that a first level caster with some intelligence (which most casters tend to have) can do significant damage, even by staying in core. For every spell level you go up by, the intelligence needed is lowered exponentially (though having more never hurts).

[Little Brother]

Ummm... according to the SRD Gate can only be held open by a level 20 wizard for 2 minutes and that's if the caster actively concentrate on holding it open or summon 20 HD of beings (or a specific being up to 40 HD, but you can only control up to 20 HD). Moreover, the gate can only be 5-20 ft in diameter, so you can't bring armies through every round. Only a handful of individuals. And since you actively have to keep it open... it cannot be allowed to be in range for artillery or within 2 minutes of airstrikes (since they can zero in on it. Destroying everything as it comes through). Two things: One, the gating to the abyss and waiting was banned. You can gate things in, but not gate out and let things swarm.

Two: You can still control a single creature if its HD is up to twice your HD

[Ashtagon]

Ummm... according to the SRD Gate can only be held open by a level 20 wizard for 2 minutes and that's if the caster actively concentrate on holding it open or summon 20 HD of beings (or a specific being up to 40 HD, but you can only control up to 20 HD). Moreover, the gate can only be 5-20 ft in diameter, so you can't bring armies through every round. Only a handful of individuals. And since you actively have to keep it open... it cannot be allowed to be in range for artillery or within 2 minutes of airstrikes (since they can zero in on it. Destroying everything as it comes through).
Finally, the mage have to be within 100 m (300 ft) himself. That's within the blast radius of heavier munitions.

So I'm questioning the supposed effectivness of this move. It can certainly bring in extra troops. But no more than 20 or the number of beings that can cross the gate in 2 minutes.
Useful? No doubt.
Gamebreaker? That would depend on the number of lvl 17+ casters, wouldn't it?

...

You underestimate the capacity of a gate spell.

Assume 20 foot diameter, so four can march abreast. Assume unimpeded humans are involved, that's a 30 ft speed. If they are running, that's 120 feet per round. Now imagine a line of soldiers ready to charge through the gate that is four men wide and (120x20 rounds) 2400 feet deep. the entire regiment of 1920 men can cross in a single casting.

That's a few more than 20.

[chainlink]

Two things: One, the gating to the abyss and waiting was banned. You can gate things in, but not gate out and let things swarm.

Two: You can still control a single creature if its HD is up to twice your HD

Missed that part, my bad.

[Gwendol]

Again. What makes you think D&D is that overpowered? Take the Balor. He is a big, flaming, target that will be smoked before he even have time to think about using his SLA's. DR? Bah!

[Aux-Ash]

You underestimate the capacity of a gate spell.

Assume 20 foot diameter, so four can march abreast. Assume unimpeded humans are involved, that's a 30 ft speed. If they are running, that's 120 feet per round. Now imagine a line of soldiers ready to charge through the gate that is four men wide and (120x20 rounds) 2400 feet deep. the entire regiment of 1920 men can cross in a single casting.

That's a few more than 20.

Hmmm... Sure. 2000 men. The math seems sound.

Still... this assumes 2 uninterrupted minutes. It's imperative that the terrans have no ability to respond to this with artillery or airstrikes within those 2 minutes. This is a great thing to do well away from the enemy. But considerably less effective in battle.

This gives our lvl 17+ casters the same effective transport capability as the modern military. Puts them on even footing. Faster and more versatile transport of troops, but you need to take a detour through a plane to move them on this one.

On the other hand... it also ties down our lvl 17+ with logistics of troops. Might not be the best use of them.

Little brother: Thanks for the clarification and the correction.

[Little Brother]

Again. What makes you think D&D is that overpowered? Take the Balor. He is a big, flaming, target that will be smoked before he even have time to think about using his SLA's. DR? Bah!A single Earth Monolith can kill several tanks with impunity from below ground. Can send them flying, even. Earth elementals are near-unkillable if playing by those methods. Plus, an Abyssal Army popping up in the middle of the enemy ranks will kill several soldiers, even ignoring friendly fire. The psychological damage is worth only killing a few.Plague of Undead spell should do some damage. Plus, hey, NecroDeathBlimps.

Suggesting that the artillery be a bit close to their allies. Illusions work, too.

Plus, Earthquake. Storm of Vengeance/Apocalypse from the Sky(Or whatever that thing in BoVD is called), Control Weather. Stone to Mud, Mud to Stone, basically, with a single caster, the whole world is trying to kill them.

By the end of a weak, all the troops would be gibbering wrecks.

EDIT:
Hmmm... Sure. 2000 men. The math seems sound.

Still... this assumes 2 uninterrupted minutes. It's imperative that the terrans have no ability to respond to this with artillery or airstrikes within those 2 minutes. This is a great thing to do well away from the enemy. But considerably less effective in battle.

This gives our lvl 17+ casters the same effective transport capability as the modern military. Puts them on even footing. Faster and more versatile transport of troops, but you need to take a detour through a plane to move them on this one.

On the other hand... it also ties down our lvl 17+ with logistics of troops. Might not be the best use of them. Teleportation Circle works, too.

Swords may not be very good weapons, but when you pop in the middle of the enemy, they serve. Archers would probably be the best troops, though... Sneaking and not dying to have their merits.

Oh, yeah, a single level 20 truenamer=victory for D&D.

[Aux-Ash]

Teleportation Circle works, too.

Swords may not be very good weapons, but when you pop in the middle of the enemy, they serve. Archers would probably be the best troops, though... Sneaking and not dying to have their merits.

Uhm... 5 ft radius ( ~70 squarefeet) so it takes at most 35 men at a time(and that's being real liberal with space) . 10 minutes cast time. Have to know the target location.

This works beautifully as an ambush for small squads or to move troops from one place to the other.

It's a death trap against larger groups or if the enemy figures out the exit point. Imagine the horror if their side mines the target location! Or sets up machinegun nests facing it!

[Jack_Simth]

Getting dropped into it doesn't have a 1/18 chance of not killing you within six seconds (commoner has 4 health, lava deals 2d6 per round, one one and a two or a one does not kill in one round).
It's 2d6 for partial contact. Also, a commoner only has 2 HP - only PC's get full HP at first level.

You find this in the Environmental section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm). Being near lava falls under "Heat Dangers":
Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a -4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell. - so if you're standing next to lava, you're taking 1d6 per minute. I think that covers the burning clothes and things.

Touching lava, however:
Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.

So while yes, touching lava only deals 2d6 (and 1d6 for another 1d3 rounds...) humans have survived brief contact with lava (with third degree burns...) which is possible for a human commoner-1 (if unlikely). Taking a dive into lava, however, is far more serious (total immersion: 20d6/round), and... well, outside of fiction, I can't think of anyone who's survived that off the top of my head.

[Flickerdart]

It's a death trap against larger groups or if the enemy figures out the exit point. Imagine the horror if their side mines the target location! Or sets up machinegun nests facing it!
There is a ton of illusion magic available to stop detection. Plus, why would you just dump dudes out into the open like that, when you could be pumping them into enemy command centres? By all means, let them mine their own HQ. It wouldn't be the first time that the D&Ders had to deal with a trapped dungeon.

[maglag]

An ubercharger doesn't deal AoE damage. We've established that heavy ordinance has an AoE effect, so it must deal some sort of damage. Force is the most appropriate type.

It isn't. There's plenty of mundane explosive-type stuff in D&D, and they usually deal bludgeoding damage.



This makes an assumption that lava in D&D acts the same way as lava in real life. In fact, I would say this point probably shows exactly why this argument is going to go around in circles. Lava in real life is so hot, you will most likely die just from standing within five feet of a significant amount. Even with no clothes on, your hair will catch on fire and you will get significant burns. Getting dropped into it doesn't have a 1/18 chance of not killing you within six seconds (commoner has 4 health, lava deals 2d6 per round, one one and a two or a one does not kill in one round). So, either commoners, by virtue of the fact that they exist in the D&D world, are more resilient to something that they have no stated resistance to than any person in our world, or lava in D&D is simply not as deadly as lava in the real world. The second option leads us to the conclusion that we really don't know exactly how deadly anything is in the D&D world to a terran, so saying how much HP a terran has is kind of an effort in futility.

I spot several errors with that analyzis
1-Geting droped into lava counts as immersion, in which case it deals 20d6 damage. More than enough to one-shot any commoner out there.
2-Only PCs get max HP at first level, so your average commoner has just 2-3 HP.
3-Either way, the lava still deals you half damage in the next round even if you manage to get away. So if your commoner gets anywhere near lava, he'll end up taking 2d6+1d6=minimum 3 damage, so unless he's on the top 25% of resilience, he ends up bleeding on the floor most of the time. Even if he's on the top 25%, he still only has roughly 0.004 in 1 chances of walking out with just some burns, in which case it definetely counts as someone either extremely lucky or extremely tough. Either way, pretty rare cases.

[Flickerdart]

Technically we would have the outsider type, since we are from a different plane.
What? No. Humanoid (Extraplanar), and even that last bit only when we're in the D&D 'verse.

[Aux-Ash]

There is a ton of illusion magic available to stop detection.

Illusions can work yes. Quite decently too. Still this means you have to do a significant degree of preparation for this. It isn't something you can prepare ad hoc.
Moreover... you illusions must be big enough for the terrans not being able to blanket the entire area with shells, napalm or gas.


Plus, why would you just dump dudes out into the open like that, when you could be pumping them into enemy command centres? By all means, let them mine their own HQ. It wouldn't be the first time that the D&Ders had to deal with a trapped dungeon.

This assumtions assumes you know where the enemy hq is. Since you must know the target location of greater teleport (and telportation circle).

And remember... scrying on a location requires you to know who the target is, have interacted with the target or being within 800 meters (enlarged, half if not).

If you do know. Then yes. This is a decent and effective tactic. But it relies on many ifs and very beneficial factors. Most notably that they're still there.

[maglag]

Illusions can work yes. Quite decently too. Still this means you have to do a significant degree of preparation for this. It isn't something you can prepare ad hoc.

Time stop, celerity, certain divinations, etc



This assumtions assumes you know where the enemy hq is. Since you must know the target location of greater teleport (and telportation circle).

And remember... scrying on a location requires you to know who the target is, have interacted with the target or being within 800 meters (enlarged, half if not).

If you do know. Then yes. This is a decent and effective tactic. But it relies on many ifs and very beneficial factors. Most notably that they're still there.

Considering all the mass media out there nowadays, that's the least of your troubles. Just walk into a public library and you can find out pretty much any president and the main government offices.

For extra giggles, let them evacuate the local president. They'll then take him to whatever secret bases they don't publicitize out there, and you can scry-and-die to finish the job.

Not to mention simply going around blowing up infrastructure, farms and whatnot, which aren't exactly secret either. A modern army cannot fight when there's no factories to pump out new war machines, logistic equipment, ammo and other supplies.

[newBlazingAngel]

The real question that would turn the tides, is whether protection from arrows would stop bullets. If it did, a twentieth level wizard has a much better chance of survival if shot at with it. Even then, the sheer numbers of bullets would likely overwhelm any damage reduction. A full auto is ultimate multishot. With the sheer amount of bullets, eventually no matter how high level you are, you wil leventuall role just a little too low.

I'm not saying that I think one would win, but I'm giving reality the chance it deserves.

[Little Brother]

NBA: Ironguard laughs at PfA.

If a wizard NEEDS the DR in this kinda fight, he really should have rolled up a cleric.

[Aux-Ash]

Time stop, celerity, certain divinations, etc

Have you noticed that this "trivial" thing now costs two lvl 9 spell slots, potentionally a third spell (which I lack the means to look up) plus legwork. :smallbiggrin:

How many of those do we have again? We cannot assume unlimited resources after all.


Considering all the mass media out there nowadays, that's the least of your troubles. Just walk into a public library and you can find out pretty much any president and the main government offices.

For extra giggles, let them evacuate the local president. They'll then take him to whatever secret bases they don't publicitize out there, and you can scry-and-die to finish the job.

Fair enough. That does seem like an efficient way of assassinate the most senior command. Though... it requires a significant investment in time to do all the necessary research. So the team intending to do this have to lock themselves down for a while. It also requires the wizard knowing that this information is available to him.
Ie. You need spies. And it will only work a handful of times. (also, fun fact... if they're in the air, on a train or in another vehicle. Scrying isn't fast enough to keep up. It can only move 150 ft/round, 25 ft/s, 8 m/s or 24 km/h)


Not to mention simply going around blowing up infrastructure, farms and whatnot, which aren't exactly secret either. A modern army cannot fight when there's no factories to pump out new war machines, logistic equipment, ammo and other supplies.

Could you please provide a time estimate, a plan on how to approach this and how many high levelled spell casters you need for this please.

[Flickerdart]

The real question that would turn the tides, is whether protection from arrows would stop bullets.
Why wouldn't it? It defends against ranged weapons, which firearms are.

[Little Brother]

Have you noticed that this "trivial" thing now costs two lvl 9 spell slots, potentionally a third spell (which I lack the means to look up) plus legwork. :smallbiggrin:

How many of those do we have again? We cannot assume unlimited resources after all.Elemental Weirds. Divination, at will, free action. Bind one. Simulacrum one.

Could you please provide a time estimate, a plan on how to approach this and how many high levelled spell casters you need for this please.With proper spell-use, one. Fimbulwinter, Control Weather, Planar Binding, and the like, can get you a lot of destruction for one spell. Plus dominate suicide bombers.

[Tokiko Mima]

Hmm.. how would the modern world counter wizards teleporting several meta-breath using DFA's into low-Terra orbit, and blanketing the planet in disintegrating force damage (via Shape/Extend/Lingering/Clinging/Maximize Breath liberally applied to the Discorporating Breath of Bahamut) for a few days?

It leaves objects unharmed, so once you replace the exposed animal life the planet will be fine. You'd have to find another method to take out nuclear subs and people in bunkers of course, but that cuts down on the amount of threat by a fair margin.

[Averis Vol]

Why wouldn't it? It defends against ranged weapons, which firearms are.

your average rifle fires many, many times faster then an arrow shot from a renaissance age bow (seeing as thats the closest bow to a D&D bow, please correct me if im wrong) plus, it only gives DR 10/Magic which bullets could easily punch through.

[Aux-Ash]

Elemental Weirds. Divination, at will, free action. Bind one. Simulacrum one.

With proper spell-use, one. Fimbulwinter, Control Weather, Planar Binding, and the like, can get you a lot of destruction for one spell. Plus dominate suicide bombers.

I'm sorry my friend, but I lack the means to look up most of those spells. And just dumping a spell on me doesn't leave me with much to debate either. How do you propose to use it and why do you think it'll matter in this case?

[maglag]

your average rifle fires many, many times faster then an arrow shot from a renaissance age bow (seeing as thats the closest bow to a D&D bow, please correct me if im wrong) plus, it only gives DR 10/Magic which bullets could easily punch through.

Says who? The weapon stats in the DMG just deal a little more than bows. And it does make sense, since a single bullet isn't exactly a guaranteed kill on an human being unless you're a trained marksman. Pretty much like a bow/crossbow.

Aux-Ash:Basically, planar binding isn't considered one of the craziest spells out there for nothing. There's hundreds of magic monsters out there to pick from, all with crazy abilities. Whatever your problem is, you can most certainly bind an outsider to take care of it.

[Little Brother]

I'm sorry my friend, but I lack the means to look up most of those spells. And just dumping a spell on me doesn't leave me with much to debate either. How do you propose to use it and why do you think it'll matter in this case?All the listed spells but Fimbulwinter are on the SRD.

Also, Earthquake.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, for the lava discussion....

You don't sink in real world lava. It's freaking rock. You just stay on top of it.

[ngilop]

this thread had taught me 2 things

1) will be left unsaid so somebody don;t get too mad cuz they seem to enjoy getting worked up over things, most espeically when somebody useing thier own logic against them as well as pointing out they are going against what the stated as fact earlier. oh and giving really ludicrous reasons on why they are doing X.

2) that i think i love candycorn

[Torben Raibeart]

Just to chime in on the issue of undead spellcasters and moon-bases. The moon is more then 200 000 miles away from the Earth. Teleport have a range of 2000 miles (for a 20th level caster).

And I don't really understand why all the talk goes like it will be scores of mid- to high-level casters awailable, as one have to assume that we are talking about a DnD-world as it seems to be from source-books and setting-books. As for the whole argument of incorpereal: It is true that a single shadow or allip is be immune to nearly everything a none-magical world could throw at it (not sure about lasers), but the same is true about regular DnD-armoes as well. Most soldiers in DnD don't have magical weapons (a PC would have to be level 5 as not to blow more then 1/3 of wealth on magic weapon, while an NPC would need level 8), all though spells exist that make weapons temperary magic (some mass-variants as well I think, AFB), yet you don't see DnD-armies getting massacered by a single shadow. So clearly use of incorpereal enemies in armies in DnD is very limited. Same goes for spellcasters: While rediculously powerful, you usually don't see them destroy armies by themself (at least not in canon as far as I'm aware).

But there is no doubt that DnD would have quite the advantage due to magic as it is - well - magic, and thereby capable of ignoring the laws of reality. When it comes to infilitration and information-gathering, illusion, enchantment and divination becomes powerfull tool, as many have said, and the ability to controll and shape terrain and weather could easily be a dealbreaker. I would not be surprised if clever use of controll weather could utterly destroy an airial fleet, even with the downside of 10 min casting time.

On the other hand, as said, casters would have to devote much of their resources to defences. In fact, high level casters are the only humanoids who could survive in battle against a modern army, as even the most hp-heavy fighter would be killed eventually. (Some monsters would be near to impossible to kill as well, but how easy is it to enlist the help of monsters in the first place, barring planar gating and domination-spells? Which would lead to small numbers.) But let us for one minute assume that the casters are not only interested in winning, but also care about the subjects of their countries. With the relativly small number of (mid to high level) casters per 1000 persons, Earth could possibly just send armies to take cities and then control a lot of casters under the treath that they would retaliate against the population. Didn't work out for the nazies, that is true, but how effectiv would such a tactic be?

That said: Earth have a bloody huge population. 7 billions. Earth had 310 million in AD 1000 and 600 million in AD 1700 (according to wikipedia), so one might assume that feudal world DnD have simalarly few, giving Earth a numeral advantage. And WWI and WWII showed that making armies of millions are quite possible just from the forces in Europe.

Fun read if you want som "Modern world on other dimention-warfare" (against Hell no less), take a look at http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=29 (The Salvation War)

[StreamOfTheSky]

The OP's rules should be changed.

Other planes of existence do not exist in our world.

As long as the D&Ders are allowed to exploit gate and etherealness and summoning, etc... This is just not even a contest.

Certainly, the planes are there in the D&D world, which is why analyzing the invading modern army's chances is lol-worthy.

But they should not be able to access the other planes at all in the real world. They do not exist here.

[Averis Vol]

Says who? The weapon stats in the DMG just deal a little more than bows. And it does make sense, since a single bullet isn't exactly a guaranteed kill on an human being unless you're a trained marksman. Pretty much like a bow/crossbow.

this (http://srd.dndonlinegames.com/Modern/weapons.html#rangedweapons) is a link to the D20 modern firearms page, you tell me what military grade long arm is close to the same level of a longbow.

And we should also start thinking about the physical differences between a DnD world and the modern. with our technology and herbal techniques we should out pace them by ages, their normal con is 10 correct? that corresponds to atleast a 16 for the average U.S. foot soldier seeing as we have more healthy foods and a better training regiment. also, protection from arrows doesnt do anything for our bigger shells. i would expect any long range, high caliber rifle to rip through a basic protection spell.

[Little Brother]

this (http://srd.dndonlinegames.com/Modern/weapons.html#rangedweapons) is a link to the D20 modern firearms page, you tell me what military grade long arm is close to the same level of a longbow.

And we should also start thinking about the physical differences between a DnD world and the modern. with our technology and herbal techniques we should out pace them by ages, their normal con is 10 correct? that corresponds to atleast a 16 for the average U.S. foot soldier seeing as we have more healthy foods and a better training regiment. also, protection from arrows doesnt do anything for our bigger shells. i would expect any long range, high caliber rifle to rip through a basic protection spell.You mean a twelve, MAYBE, right? The real statistical difference between them and us is we'd(In the first world) have large numbers of experts, aristocrats, and our normal soldiers would probable warriors, or MAYBE level 1 fighters(Though I doubt it). 16 con? No. That's huge. That's near the top of human capability. No. No way.

[Averis Vol]

You mean a twelve, MAYBE, right? The real statistical difference between them and us is we'd(In the first world) have large numbers of experts, aristocrats, and our normal soldiers would probable warriors, or MAYBE level 1 fighters(Though I doubt it). 16 con? No. That's huge. That's near the top of human capability. No. No way.

thats near the top for a society thats lucky to make it to 50 years of age with all the things that could take them out, hell we could introduce the common cold and wipe out any humanoids below 10th level. I mean, there are villages in the Himalayas that have folks living to upwards of 110 years, and for the most part thats a "back water" part of the world compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

I also second the notion that giving full casters to the DnD world is nowhere near fair if your barring the real world from nukes and other large tactical bombs. it seems to me that when you take away OUR 9th level equivalents you pre-decided that the DnDverse was going to win.

EDIT: you also seem to highly under estimate the training our military alone goes through, level one fighters? your have GOT to be kidding me, the amount of things are seals and marines go through is easily enough to put them at 3rd level, though what class they would be i cannot say seeing as those don't transfer well to the real world, they are marines and seals, not fighters and rogues. and thats not even including the entirety of our worlds special forces, thats a fight I beg to see you win, and no Scry and Die bullcrap, that requires you know anything about them on a pre existing basis.

[Flickerdart]

thats near the top for a society thats lucky to make it to 50 years of age with all the things that could take them out
Uh, no. The average D&D human has a life expectancy of 90 years. In case you aren't aware, the global average life expectancy for Earth is 69.4 years, or 78.1 years in the United States. The average D&D human man is also 1 inch taller than the average Earth man.

[Averis Vol]

Uh, no. The average D&D human has a life expectancy of 90 years. In case you aren't aware, the global average life expectancy for Earth is 69.4 years, or 78.1 years in the United States. The average D&D human man is also 1 inch taller than the average Earth man.

Are we talking about commoners? or the super endowed men who travel the world LOOKING for big bad things to kill? I do not believe the PHB guidelines are meant for the NPC's

[Flickerdart]

Are we talking about commoners? or the super endowed men who travel the world LOOKING for big bad things to kill? I do not believe the PHB guidelines are meant for the NPC's
The statistics provided are for generating random height and age for humans, not PCs or NPCs. So yes, even commoners.

[Little Brother]

Are we talking about commoners? or the super endowed men who travel the world LOOKING for big bad things to kill? I do not believe the PHB guidelines are meant for the NPC'sIt applies to both. So D&D human are healthier than modern ones, which raises the question, are they all herders?

[Averis Vol]

It applies to both. So D&D human are healthier than modern ones, which raises the question, are they all herders?

its the Players handbook, rules for commoners are in the DMG, nowhere else in there does it actually legitimately reference commoners.

[Morcleon]

For utter destruction of Earth?

Capture any large nuke with a button-detonator. Give the nuke to an intelligent (preferably controlled) undead. Cast Imprisionment on said undead. Have it detonate the nuke in the "small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth." This essentially creates a 2012-style situation for a not insignificant portion of the planet. Rinse and repeat to destroy the planet.

Or use Locate City Bomb (although I think this would fall under the "banned" category... :smalltongue:)

[Wookie-ranger]

cut for length


From SRD:
Teleport, Greater
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target.
Bold mine


You are right in that nobody is talking about commoners, level 1 warriors, low level PCs and so forth.
The argument that they would have no relevant impact in modern war is true, and also the point why no one is talking about them. They are unimportant; expendable.
It all comes down to the big guys (no pun intended). In a world that is 'only' populated by 310M people, if you kill the 99.9999% that is not level 20. You are still left with 310 (!) Level 20 Characters! And we were talking about what one level 20 character could do.
Now that i say this, it seams more likely that those remaining 310 Characters are fighting among each other other the new prime real estate populated with only none-magic users.

[Flickerdart]

its the Players handbook, rules for commoners are in the DMG, nowhere else in there does it actually legitimately reference commoners.
Rules in the PHB are PC exclusive now? Remember that the PHB has all the feats, so by your spurious logic, no NPCs are permitted feats. There is exactly one metric for how long people live. Having different ones per class would be absurd, but more importantly, it would be mentioned. I challenge you to find me a rule that supports your stance.

[Hirax]

Keep in mind the D&D average of 90 is the average maximum age, not the average expected age. That -6 to your con once you hit venerable has a way of making things like disease cut you down early.

[Averis Vol]

Rules in the PHB are PC exclusive now? Remember that the PHB has all the feats, so by your spurious logic, no NPCs are permitted feats. There is exactly one metric for how long people live. Having different ones per class would be absurd, but more importantly, it would be mentioned. I challenge you to find me a rule that supports your stance.

I would absolutely love to prove my point but as it stands I just swept over the entire dmg and secede my point, I was wrong. Though I still firmly believe there should be a definition between PC's and NPC's, theres a reason we have different catagories. but as it stands I cannot defend that.

[Flickerdart]

Keep in mind the D&D average of 90 is the average maximum age, not the average expected age. That -6 to your con once you hit venerable has a way of making things like disease cut you down early.
CON doesn't matter, because you can just get anyone to do a Heal check (WIS based, so it goes up as you age) and then you get to use the result instead. And only magical diseases (inflicted by roving monsters) actually deal ability damage, and even when they do, the damage recovers 1/day so it's quite likely that a character can be sick and not ever care.

[Hirax]

CON doesn't matter, because you can just get anyone to do a Heal check (WIS based, so it goes up as you age) and then you get to use the result instead. And only magical diseases (inflicted by roving monsters) actually deal ability damage, and even when they do, the damage recovers 1/day so it's quite likely that a character can be sick and not ever care.

The problem is having someone there to make that check when the initial damage hits. Anyone that had 10 con to start with now has 4, and might not survive the initial damage. Or they might merely have a strength or dex of 0 and be unable to get help. They'll probably only have 1 HP per HD.

[Hecuba]

And I don't really understand why all the talk goes like it will be scores of mid- to high-level casters awailable, as one have to assume that we are talking about a DnD-world as it seems to be from source-books and setting-books. [. . .] Same goes for spellcasters: While rediculously powerful, you usually don't see them destroy armies by themself (at least not in canon as far as I'm aware).

For at least part of the discussion, optimized partial-casters were presumed available. As to "scores" of them, we don't really need them. If you had an actual level 20, tier 1 caster, one might well be enough. They have reasonably available paths to being immune to anything we can throw at them, and they can reasonably dispatch a squad in 6 seconds.

The key is that a mid-level full caster and a high-level partial caster can operate with the same level of impunity here: they are merely more limited in their offensive options. Not quite 1 man armies, but certainly 1 man platoons. With even a small number of these, the D&D side can reasonably win simply through attrition

[Flickerdart]

Let's make things a little more fair.

I think it is fairly safe to assume that most characters of 15th+ level have a very limited presence on the Material Plane. Their adventures have them knocking around the Outer Planes burning down demons or some such. It's not that they couldn't stop the invaders, but that they're either not aware of the invasion or are too busy to just pull up roots and go back to fight an entirely new thing while their former enemies are just sitting there not taking this as an opportunity to stab them while they sleep.

At the same time, it's very likely that the local kingdom won't even realize these guys are invaders (people with strange weapons and language show up out of nowhere, that's not exactly new) until Terran boots are stomping around the closest fortifications. The local peasants, despite their life expectancy, are probably still going to be a lot happier with living under Terran rule and all the rights and luxuries that come with it, so aside from some random patriots, we're not likely to have the Terrans facing much opposition from locals or even levies. Only household knights will be willing to fight, at least until they eat a shell to the teeth and die.

Since characters below, say, 6th are not sturdy enough and don't have enough magic to be effective (and enough stake in the old order to really stand behind their rulers) and the 15+ guys aren't around, that leaves us with 7th-14th level characters to do the real moving and shaking. Even so, before they and their leaders can even consider a counter-attack on enemy soil, they're going to need to kick the Terrans out of their backyard. So Terran high command is safe, which probably includes the commanding general and immediate underlings. The worst thing that can happen is that the D&Ders go after supply dumps, but they have no way of recognizing them for the first while, and would likely not have a very good idea of how to go after mundane disguised locations, as their tools would be oriented towards piercing illusions and so forth.

Given these assumptions (which somewhat favour the Terrans, but nothing that's that much of a stretch) it's still pretty clear that it's only a matter of time before one of the high level guys slays the lich of the month and pops back home to see what's up, or until the mid-level characters figure out what's going on, or until the local kings finally decide to do something about this and hire lots of adventuring parties (because let's face it, the real power in D&Dland doesn't lie with the ruling classes, they're going to need to assemble adventurer companies from all over, and pay them dearly). Before any of this happens, how much can the Terrans get away with?

The goal seems obvious: capture the local kingdom, dispose of the king, then send diplomatic missions to neighbouring lands and win them over gradually through trade. The only condition this plan requires is that it must be completed before other countries get involved. Until it's a war against all the adventurers the local kings could afford to hire with all the money in the treasuries, the Terrans are likely to do well.

What do you think - can the Terrans manage to keep this a war against a single kingdom, or will the D&D 'verse unite itself far too quickly? I'm perfectly willing to assume that it's only one Earth country doing the invading, too, since military technology is largely the same all around.

[Augmental]

@Flickerdart:

Sending: "Massive extraplanar threat to Material Plane. Shown to have explosives and deadly ranged weapons. We need high-level adventurers to save the world. Please help."

[Flickerdart]

@Flickerdart:

Sending: "Massive extraplanar threat to Material Plane. Shown to have explosives and deadly ranged weapons. We need high-level adventurers to save the world. Please help."
Sending: "Demon Lord Graz'zt just deployed seventeen doomsday cannons and Mephistopheles is riding the Tarrasque into Limbo, plus we're under attack from the ghost of Acererak and his legions of the undead. You deal with it."

[Feralventas]

]



The goal seems obvious: capture the local kingdom, dispose of the king, then send diplomatic missions to neighbouring lands and win them over gradually through trade. The only condition this plan requires is that it must be completed before other countries get involved. Until it's a war against all the adventurers the local kings could afford to hire with all the money in the treasuries, the Terrans are likely to do well.

What do you think - can the Terrans manage to keep this a war against a single kingdom, or will the D&D 'verse unite itself far too quickly? I'm perfectly willing to assume that it's only one Earth country doing the invading, too, since military technology is largely the same all around.

If we're talking about a single kingdom? I doubt very much that even a D&D setting kingdom, local 'casters included, could stand in open war-fare against a modern military effort.

The D&D 'verse will likely lack the global unity required to actually forge a collective effort against such an invasion; much as our mundane means may not always match magic, institutions such as the United Nations provide a great deal of communicative opportunity to the Terran side of such a conflict.

1 medieval to Renaissance tech-level kingdom vs the resources of a world is not a win-able fight, magic or not.


As for Augmental's assesment, the message would go out, people would be rallied, and in the hour or three that it would take for them to get there (presuming teleportation) after getting their resources together, they would find the place under new management, already setting up security measures that they've never encountered before and operating with logistical efficiency that allows for war to be waged on four fronts with minimal deficiencies to the home-front. They might then be able to start putting up a resistance, but fighting against dug-in force with technolgical options available that they don't understand would be a nigh-impossible task resulting in unjustifiable death-to-success ratios.

[Invader]

A group of high level NPC's/PC's could take care of any invading force with relative ease. Honestly what is a regiment of soldiers going to do against 10-15 15+ spellcasters? They'll be invisible, they'll have tons of protective spells up, and they'll rain instant death on the majority of the low level soldiers immediately. Plus there's a pretty large abundance of high level NPC's to begin with so it wouldn't be hard getting a large group together.

[Feralventas]

A group of high level NPC's/PC's could take care of any invading force with relative ease. Honestly what is a regiment of soldiers going to do against 10-15 15+ spellcasters? They'll be invisible, they'll have tons of protective spells up, and they'll rain instant death on the majority of the low level soldiers immediately. Plus there's a pretty large abundance of high level NPC's to begin with so it wouldn't be hard getting a large group together.

There are mundane and technological equivilants to a large quantity of the effects you've mentioned. What will those 'casters do against a party of equally powerful combative soldiers who can match them in firepower as much as utility?

Invisibility blocks sight, but not blind-sense; a wizard will be shot by a sniper with infa-red vision goggles, and die without a clue why there's a hole in their chest. Soldiers of our world do not fight in easy-to-see regiments, they are stealthy, sneaky, cut-throats. Scrying spells will require a target, and vision and spot-check boosts can be countered with camouflage and training to equate non-magical enhancement, insight, and competence bonuses.

So the wizard is invisible and flying, but the terrans see them anyway, and are essentially invisible and still firing at the same or greater distance.

[Flickerdart]

A group of high level NPC's/PC's could take care of any invading force with relative ease. Honestly what is a regiment of soldiers going to do against 10-15 15+ spellcasters? They'll be invisible, they'll have tons of protective spells up, and they'll rain instant death on the majority of the low level soldiers immediately. Plus there's a pretty large abundance of high level NPC's to begin with so it wouldn't be hard getting a large group together.
Where are you getting that many high level casters? Not only do they have better things to do and their own enemies to fight, but they would demand ridiculous amounts of money for their help. If you can get them, yes, you win, but getting any, even unoptimized ones, is by no means guaranteed.

[Augmental]

Where are you getting that many high level casters? Not only do they have better things to do and their own enemies to fight, but they would demand ridiculous amounts of money for their help. If you can get them, yes, you win, but getting any, even unoptimized ones, is by no means guaranteed.

So you're saying that they'd just stand by and let the terrans conquer their world?

[Feralventas]

So you're saying that they'd just stand by and let the terrans conquer their world?

New authority doesn't mean a bad one, and the civilian populations could greatly benefit from technological advances, seeing as the 'casters and such that would otherwise be running things probably haven't been sharing Magic.

Wars happen, but the united Terran forces still have the Geneva Convention to operate under, meaning they'll be taking care of civilians and avoiding pointlessly or recklessly harmful tactics.

Chaotic good-aligned folks would have a problem with the invasion, I'll give you that.

True Neutral and Chaotic Neutral? We didn't really care who was in charge before, why would we now?

Lawful Evil? Might makes right, and Might is something the Terrans have in surplus.

Neutral Evil, new toys to play with and whole new world to explore and exploit. They want an end to the conflict to set about their own plots and plans, or just perpetuate the problem and cause more suffering that way, but they'd be best at this by Aiding the Terrans if the D&D group got the upper hand.

Chaotic evil? Just as much a nuisance as before, but they probably weren't helping in the first place, and I doubt these folks could get along with the CG group long enough to push against their mutual adversary.

[Flickerdart]

So you're saying that they'd just stand by and let the terrans conquer their world?
That's how mercenaries work, yeah. Seriously, though, read my huge post above, it has words in it that explain this already. a) the world isn't theirs anymore, they're plane-hopping; b) they have their own enemies to fight; c) they are accustomed to being paid tremendous sums of money - a single CR-appropriate encounter for a 15th level party will cost whoever hired them over 15,000 GP. For a battle that will last about 30 seconds max. To hire high-level PCs for a war would bankrupt the entire kingdom in days.

[Invader]

Where are you getting that many high level casters? Not only do they have better things to do and their own enemies to fight, but they would demand ridiculous amounts of money for their help. If you can get them, yes, you win, but getting any, even unoptimized ones, is by no means guaranteed.

Well since the OP didn't say what D&D world I used FR because I'm most familiar with it.

Waterdeep has easily 40 level 15+ characters most of which are casters. And these aren't go out adventuring save the world NPC's (for the most part) these are just the regular citizens of the city. Then look at all the other major cities in FR plus all the dragons, intelligent magical beasts, etc. and it'd be really easy to get a large force of high level NPC's.

[Eldan]

There's population tables in the DMG. We should probably use those. They give us high level NPCs in every large population centre.

[Flickerdart]

Well since the OP didn't say what D&D world I used FR because I'm most familiar with it.

Waterdeep has easily 40 level 15+ characters most of which are casters. And these aren't go out adventuring save the world NPC's (for the most part) these are just the regular citizens of the city. Then look at all the other major cities in FR plus all the dragons, intelligent magical beasts, etc. and it'd be really easy to get a large force of high level NPC's.
FR's NPCs also don't do anything. What's your guarantee that they will work together to repel the invaders, and not, say, team up with them?

[Invader]

There are mundane and technological equivilants to a large quantity of the effects you've mentioned. What will those 'casters do against a party of equally powerful combative soldiers who can match them in firepower as much as utility?

Invisibility blocks sight, but not blind-sense; a wizard will be shot by a sniper with infa-red vision goggles, and die without a clue why there's a hole in their chest. Soldiers of our world do not fight in easy-to-see regiments, they are stealthy, sneaky, cut-throats. Scrying spells will require a target, and vision and spot-check boosts can be countered with camouflage and training to equate non-magical enhancement, insight, and competence bonuses.

So the wizard is invisible and flying, but the terrans see them anyway, and are essentially invisible and still firing at the same or greater distance.

Every soldier isn't a trained Navy Seal, camouflage and training do not equate anywhere near the power of even a low level spell caster and how is that snipers bullet going to get through all the protective spells that wizard has? Not to mention this is D&D so its going to take more than one bullet to kill a high level NPC anyway.

[Arbane]

Invisibility blocks sight, but not blind-sense; a wizard will be shot by a sniper with infa-red vision goggles, and die without a clue why there's a hole in their chest.

I strongly suspect blind-sense is more like radar, and invisibility blocks darkvision, right?

I'd also like to question the supremacy of sniping - in D&Dland, a battleaxe to the skull isn't necessarily going to even mildly inconvenience anyone over level 6. (Or did the Earth army get issued Plot-Armor-Piercing rounds? :smalltongue: )

But, whatever.

"So, let me get this straight. We went away for ONE WEEK, and these "Terrans" appeared out of nowhere, massacred the local troops, and now they've got our own castle fortified against us."

"Yep. Nothing bigger than a gnat can get close without getting blasted out of the sky. We tried sending in a hummingbird with Protection From Arrows, but they overloaded the spell in seconds."

"How about sending a flock of sparrows over to tire their casters out? "

"It's not casters, it's some sort of trap. We don't know how to get around it yet."

"Well, Abyss. Teleport in?"

"We tried that. Haven't heard back from them, so we're assuming the worst."

"How about going in from underneath?"

"They've got all the tunnels sealed off."

"I don't mean in the tunnels, I mean send in burrowers."

"Might be worth a try. You get some Earth Elementals, I'll see about finding some Bulettes."

(And how IS an Earthanoid army going to stop teleporters, anyway?)

[Invader]

FR's NPCs also don't do anything. What's your guarantee that they will work together to repel the invaders, and not, say, team up with them?

Because the OP said so

The worlds are RELATIVELY united. People from another world attacking do that. Not necessarily happy, but not going to just backstab each other for teh lulz.

[Invader]

I strongly suspect blind-sense is more like radar, and invisibility blocks darkvision, right?



That's also true darkvision would be the equivalent to infrared vision and creatures with dark vision can't see invisibility.

[Flickerdart]

Backstab for teh lulz, perhaps not - but bribery with luxuries they'd never known existed? That would get some points.

[Invader]

Backstab for teh lulz, perhaps not - but bribery with luxuries they'd never known existed? That would get some points.

But by that logic they could also just be bribed to go home.

[Averis Vol]

I'm going on a limb and agreeing with flickerdart, whom I have pretty much disagreed with the whole time, They wouldn't be betraying their "team" for teh lulz, but for a much higher value of living. If they side with the terrans then they easily overthrow their higher ups and are the strongest left to now lead and do whatever they wish. the term relatively popped up, as in they were okay where they were but now they have a chance to skyrocket into seats of higher power. It's practically a no-lose and greed is always in the heart of men/women (besides liches).

[Feralventas]

Every soldier isn't a trained Navy Seal, camouflage and training do not equate anywhere near the power of even a low level spell caster and how is that snipers bullet going to get through all the protective spells that wizard has? Not to mention this is D&D so its going to take more than one bullet to kill a high level NPC anyway.

Not every soldier is a Seal, but I was not under the impression that anything I mentioned was specific to that division, and even if it were, you better believe there would be at Least one Seals division on-site and several more equivalents from other nations if an extra-dimensional threat were located.

Defenses? Protection from arrows grants DR10/magic. A simple Battle-axe can beat that on a luck roll before any modifiers are applied; can you imagine how much more damage a modern assault rifle is capable of? I understand d20-modern has it at about 2d10, but I'm inclined to disregard that in favor of comparison to the weapons in a material sense. Take into account as well the potential of non-magical bonuses I'd mentioned in the post above as well as the soldier's own potential augmentations for aiming, ammunition types, etc., and you're looking at an average damage that can pierce basic DR/- on every shot. Then take into account that there will likely be several slugs following it, or one large one; save or die vs massive damage.

Most of a wizard's protective spells are in avoiding being detected. If they're going up against sensory systems that they've never dealt with before, half their protective abilities are wasted or useless. Then you look into DR/- (pierced by sufficient damage) armor (beaten by attack rolls) miss-chances like Blur (pointless due to non-visual sights).

And this is just a set of soldiers. Add in air-scanning capacities that can be fitted onto a truck and perceive a Bird with non-visual sensors at kilometer or more range, and weapons that would force AOE damage with material (shrapnel) and energy (fire) and kinetic (force) damage with accuracy enough to decide where, within centimeters, it ought to ignite.

[Invader]

I'm going on a limb and agreeing with flickerdart, whom I have pretty much disagreed with the whole time, They wouldn't be betraying their "team" for teh lulz, but for a much higher value of living. If they side with the terrans then they easily overthrow their higher ups and are the strongest left to now lead and do whatever they wish. the term relatively popped up, as in they were okay where they were but now they have a chance to skyrocket into seats of higher power. It's practically a no-lose and greed is always in the heart of men/women (besides liches).

But again you have to base the argument on what the OP was implying at, which was the the whole world was working together against the modern world.

If you assume otherwise it changes the question from D&D vs. modern world to D&D & Modern world vs D&D. The latter isn't what the OP was asking about.

[Arbane]

I'm going on a limb and agreeing with flickerdart, whom I have pretty much disagreed with the whole time, They wouldn't be betraying their "team" for teh lulz, but for a much higher value of living. If they side with the terrans then they easily overthrow their higher ups and are the strongest left to now lead and do whatever they wish. the term relatively popped up, as in they were okay where they were but now they have a chance to skyrocket into seats of higher power. It's practically a no-lose and greed is always in the heart of men/women (besides liches).

That cuts both ways, but not as well. D&Dland has a few luxuries Earth doesn't have - Regeneration and Raise Dead spells, Bardic music, succubi.... :smallwink:

What do the gods think about this? If I lived in D&Dland, being persona non grata with the local churches is a genuine threat. Especially if the local nobility really DO rule by divine mandate.

[Feralventas]

I strongly suspect blind-sense is more like radar, and invisibility blocks darkvision, right?
"Well, Abyss. Teleport in?"
"We tried that. Haven't heard back from them, so we're assuming the worst."
"How about going in from underneath?"
"They've got all the tunnels sealed off."
"I don't mean in the tunnels, I mean send in burrowers."
"Might be worth a try. You get some Earth Elementals, I'll see about finding some Bulettes."

(And how IS an Earthanoid army going to stop teleporters, anyway?)

We have seismic sensors that would function as tremmor-sense to catch burrowers, though Earth Elementals would probably have to be put down with raw force and firepower once they emerged.

Teleporters would Definitely be a problem for Holding a fortification, but surviving in there against weapons they're not familiar being on just about anyone inside (side-arms and guards) would make it a lethal risk to the porter at least. They would be better off using that to sneak in, pop invisibility, and then sneak around where they're not looking and gather information than they would for port-in-and-wreck-stuff.

I suppose dark-vision might be heat-equivalent, though I don't know why invisibility would prevent That from working either since it doesn't use the visual spectrum, but according to the D20SRD, it would be a bit more viable than I'd thought. Still useless against the anti-air units, but standard soldiers would need a spectrum beyond darkvision (maybe into U-V rather than infrared) to be able to see an invisible target. Good catch :3!

[Arbane]

Most of a wizard's protective spells are in avoiding being detected. If they're going up against sensory systems that they've never dealt with before, half their protective abilities are wasted or useless. Then you look into DR/- (pierced by sufficient damage) armor (beaten by attack rolls) miss-chances like Blur (pointless due to non-visual sights).

And this is just a set of soldiers. Add in air-scanning capacities that can be fitted onto a truck and perceive a Bird with non-visual sensors at kilometer or more range, and weapons that would force AOE damage with material (shrapnel) and energy (fire) and kinetic (force) damage with accuracy enough to decide where, within centimeters, it ought to ignite.

This is starting to look like Wizard vs Fighter, Bizarro World edition: "Of COURSE the fighters are perfectly prepared for all contingencies and always have exactly the right weaponry on hand!"

Let's turn that around: what does D&Dland have that the Glorious Terran Liberation Expeditionary Force WON'T have any reasonable counter-measure to, at least at first?

Mind control
Shapeshifters
Weather control
Teleporters
Earthquakes & volcanoes
Curses
Walls of Force
Illusions
Shatter spells on their guns

Any big ones I'm forgetting?

"What do you MEAN, half of B platoon has gone AWOL?!"
"They said they saw someone 'jump really well', then we lost contact, sir..."

[Feralventas]

But by that logic they could also just be bribed to go home.

Yes, they could, but if Terrans can be Enchanted and manipulated with magic, I don't see why the D&D'ers wouldn't be amenable to bribes and offers of trade on a personal level (individuals, rather than turning nations against each other).

[Invader]

We have seismic sensors that would function as tremmor-sense to catch burrowers, though Earth Elementals would probably have to be put down with raw force and firepower once they emerged.

Teleporters would Definitely be a problem for Holding a fortification, but surviving in there against weapons they're not familiar being on just about anyone inside (side-arms and guards) would make it a lethal risk to the porter at least. They would be better off using that to sneak in, pop invisibility, and then sneak around where they're not looking and gather information than they would for port-in-and-wreck-stuff.


Or sneak in with immunity to fire and pop 100 delayed blast fireballs in the center of the camp and instantly kill everything lol.

[Averis Vol]

But again you have to base the argument on what the OP was implying at, which was the the whole world was working together against the modern world.

If you assume otherwise it changes the question from D&D vs. modern world to D&D & Modern world vs D&D. The latter isn't what the OP was asking about.

Then lets assume that the DnDverse is not allowed to charm/mind rape/magic jar the terrans because then it is no longer DnDverse Vs. terrans, its DnDverse & terrans Vs. terrans. That blade cuts both ways to.
(see what I did thur? :smallamused:)


Even so, it is in the spirit of the OP unless this is supposed to be an all out bash-fest against the two sides. And then, how long can the few wizards who stood and fought hold out once the more savvy minded merely "surrender" (a surprisingly common tactic for not getting shredded by mountains of lead.)

Man, its surprising how one sided these conversations get, its like drizzt & Arty Vs. Cale & Riven all over again.

[Invader]

Then lets assume that the DnDverse is not allowed to charm/mind rape/magic jar the terrans because then it is no longer DnDverse Vs. terrans, its DnDverse & terrans Vs. terrans. That blade cuts both ways to.
(see what I did thur? :smallamused:)


Even so, it is in the spirit of the OP unless this is supposed to be an all out bash-fest against the two sides. And then, how long can the few wizards who stood and fought hold out once the more savvy minded merely "surrender" (a surprisingly common tactic for not getting shredded by mountains of lead.)

Man, its surprising how one sided these conversations get, its like drizzt & Arty Vs. Cale & Riven all over again.

I never once implied that they would charm/mind rape/magic jar the terrans so your argument is invalid.

See what i did thur

[Averis Vol]

Right, I still havent gotten the hang of quoting multiple sources, that part wasnt really directed at you, moreso @Arbane and, well, everyone else who advocated that D&Ders get to use charms but the terrans can't use diplomacy.

So my bad, the second part is directed at you though.

[Feralventas]

This is starting to look like Wizard vs Fighter, Bizarro World edition: "Of COURSE the fighters are perfectly prepared for all contingencies and always have exactly the right weaponry on hand!"

Let's turn that around: what does D&Dland have that the Glorious Terran Liberation Expeditionary Force WON'T have any reasonable counter-measure to, at least at first?

Mind control
Shapeshifters
Weather control
Teleporters
Earthquakes & volcanoes
Curses
Walls of Force
Illusions
Shatter spells on their guns

Any big ones I'm forgetting?

"What do you MEAN, half of B platoon has gone AWOL?!"
"They said they saw someone 'jump really well', then we lost contact, sir..."

Yeah, I see your point; this is getting a bit silly :3. Bat-man vs Creed is still a fun exercise though.

Mind-control: Will saves and awareness of fellow soldiers make this kinda hit-or-miss, since we're talking 15th level and not spam-mind-rape level. It'd be a detrimental thing for the Terrans to face, and certainly a force to be reckoned with, but it's a game-changer, not a game-ender.

Shape-shifters: Bigger guns for the Polymorphs, ID-tags and cards vs Alter Self and Disguise Self.

Weather Control is another debuff they don't have an answer for save "keep going." Wars go on, rain or shine.

Teleporters, high risk, high gain.

Earthquakes and Volcanoes still strike me as 17+ effects, but Earthquake at least is written without construction tech developed for places like the Ring of Fire and the like where they've engineered ways of dealing with seismic activity, or at least minimizing its harmful effects.

Curses: saves, the usual requirement of proximity, and the ability to send soldiers home when they keep drawing chickens out of their holsters so that the spell no longer functions (No magic on Terra).

Illusions are available on both sides; we've had things like that since WW1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Maskelyne

Walls of Force would provide excellent cover. Too bad we can launch projectiles that explode downward, but the first few times it gets used it'd be damn problematic, and even in long-term application it'd be a hell of a lot of trouble.

Shatter spells would be frustrating, and responded to with side-arms and other alternatives, though why someone's spending a spell-slot to break the gun and not the wielder is beyond me.


Now, these are all definitely going to be problematic in their own fashion, but the way they fail to really turn the tide of the battle is in that there are still So Few 'Casters available to use all of them, with limited spell-slots as well. They can likewise try to prepare for as much as they can, but doing so also reduces the amount of spells they'll have that are viable for the situation that they Do encounter since they're split between that and the other situations that they won't. Meanwhile, the Terrans can have most of the advantages laid out in this post and above on the majority of their fighting force, or at least arrange things so that the majority benefit from them.

[candycorn]

Personally, I see it going like this.

Modern Army has tactical surprise (per OP). After a few air strikes, relevant nation of D&D surrenders.

Other nations follow suit, some faster than others.

But here's where things start. D&D nations didn't surrender because they have no fight, they surrendered because they weren't going to wage that kind of fight.

When groups move in to occupy, they are selectively Charmed and Dominated, or they have their thoughts read, and then they are killed and impersonated.

From here, the D&D forces work their way up the food chain, using inside information and such to get more control. Along the way, the humans find scans that can detect charm (CAT scans pickup alternate brain patterns, let's say), but they're expensive, so only leaders get them... However, those people in sensitive positions get them DAILY.

It's not the tactical battle where D&D can most effectively fight. It's the post-war insurgency. If there's one thing that's made evident by modern warfare, it's that small groups, operating in secrecy, are devilishly hard to engage properly. And D&D is all about small groups operating independently.

For the tactical battle, things like jets and tanks move too quick to effectively engage with anything but a token small amount of units. For the post war insurgency, D&D has its entire toolkit at its disposal.

[Invader]

Right, I still havent gotten the hang of quoting multiple sources, that part wasnt really directed at you, moreso @Arbane and, well, everyone else who advocated that D&Ders get to use charms but the terrans can't use diplomacy.

So my bad, the second part is directed at you though.

I will agree with you this is def another one of those exercises in futility that occur here pretty often.

I guess for me it comes down to this;

Spellcasters can very literally bend the the laws of time, space, and reality to their will. I'll take that over bullets, radar, and night vision any day.

[Feralventas]

Or sneak in with immunity to fire and pop 100 delayed blast fireballs in the center of the camp and instantly kill everything lol.

Now I think you're being silly. A 20th level wizard has, before counting Int-mod bonuses, 36 spell slots. With int, maybe 50, and there's no way in heck they've got enough time-stop staffs and rods of Delayed Fireballs to pull this off with less than 10 'casters without resorting to cheese banned in the OP. Even if they Do have that kind of money laying around, they've blown away a Very sizable portion of their own WBL; the only 'casters who will do this are ones who are utterly devoted to the idea of winning this conflict. Short of that, the cost you put forward is literally too high for them to care anymore when they could just nope off to the next plane of existence.

Edit: My hat's off to Candycorn for hitting the nail on the head. Terrans win confrontation, D&D wins the game.

[Averis Vol]

I will agree with you this is def another one of those exercises in futility that occur here pretty often.

I guess for me it comes down to this;

Spellcasters can very literally bend the the laws of time, space, and reality to their will. I'll take that over bullets, radar, and night vision any day.

Very much agreed. But I enjoy the thought that our worlds best minds can beat a book written by a guy in his kitchen. :smallamused:

Also, another thought just came into my head. The OP said DnD didnt exist correct? what about the hundreds of other video games based off the system, and hell, even those that weren't. it wouldn't take long for us to learn :
"oh crap, its magic"
"you mean like world of warcraft"
yea, If world of warcraft could shoot fire balls out if its nostrils, men, on all your off time you are to play as many fantasy video games as possible to build up ways to defend. MOVE IT, MOVE IT, MOOOOOVE IT!"

:smallbiggrin:

[Invader]

Now I think you're being silly. A 20th level wizard has, before counting Int-mod bonuses, 36 spell slots. With int, maybe 50, and there's no way in heck they've got enough time-stop staffs and rods of Delayed Fireballs to pull this off with less than 10 'casters without resorting to cheese banned in the OP. Even if they Do have that kind of money laying around, they've blown away a Very sizable portion of their own WBL; the only 'casters who will do this are ones who are utterly devoted to the idea of winning this conflict. Short of that, the cost you put forward is literally too high for them to care anymore when they could just nope off to the next plane of existence.

That was more of an exaggerated example of what they could do, that's why I laughed at the end. But to be honest you wouldn't need 100 to completely destroy whatever you were attacking, it could very easily be done with just a few and that wouldn't be hard to manage at all.

[Invader]

Very much agreed. But I enjoy the thought that our worlds best minds can beat a book written by a guy in his kitchen. :smallamused:

Also, another thought just came into my head. The OP said DnD didnt exist correct? what about the hundreds of other video games based off the system, and hell, even those that weren't. it wouldn't take long for us to learn :
"oh crap, its magic"
"you mean like world of warcraft"
yea, If world of warcraft could shoot fire balls out if its nostrils, men, on all your off time you are to play as many fantasy video games as possible to build up ways to defend. MOVE IT, MOVE IT, MOOOOOVE IT!"

:smallbiggrin:

That and I'm pretty sure that today's super accurate missiles were developed of off magic missile technology so; no D&D - no super modern accurate missiles. :smallbiggrin:

[Hirax]

Maybe I missed it, but how are the Earthlings doing anything to wizards with shapechange (edit: or clerics, druids, and others that can get it)? They can just turn into dread wraiths (or take your pick of incorporeal creatures), kill people with impunity, and rest in mage's mansions when they get bored, and laugh at all the non-magic users with their bullets and swords knowing nothing can touch them, and they'll be there at the end no matter what?

[Heatwizard]

Shatter's close range and single target; you'd break one guy's gun, and then the rest would turn around and light you up. Shapeshifters would probably work once or twice, but that sort of infiltration and espionage isn't foreign to mundane troops. The weather/natural disaster stuff would be the real challenge, I think, but I'm not seeing any 'make the weather inhospitable over x area for y time' spells in the SRD, actually. Admittedly, I only looked at the druid list.

[Feralventas]

That and I'm pretty sure that today's super accurate missiles were developed of off magic missile technology so; no D&D - no super modern accurate missiles. :smallbiggrin:

o.o wat?

I think I'm watching a joke fly over my head, but they were developed with computers and cameras long before Magic Missile was part of our cultural norm. If anything it was based off of the Lunar Race and the attempt to accurately launch projectiles to a target site with perfect precision needed for space navigation.

[Invader]

o.o wat?

I think I'm watching a joke fly over my head, but they were developed with computers and cameras long before Magic Missile was part of our cultural norm. If anything it was based off of the Lunar Race and the attempt to accurately launch projectiles to a target site with perfect precision needed for space navigation.

Yeah just a joke (Super accurate missiles that can hit anything/magic missile that always hits its target despite cover):smallamused:

[candycorn]

Maybe I missed it, but how are the Earthlings doing anything to wizards with shapechange (edit: or clerics, druids, and others that can get it)? They can just turn into dread wraiths (or take your pick of incorporeal creatures), kill people with impunity, and rest in mage's mansions when they get bored, and laugh at all the non-magic users with their bullets and swords knowing nothing can touch them, and they'll be there at the end no matter what?

Ummm... nonmagical energy can still kill incorporeal creatures. Flamethrowers, explosives, etc. There's a 50% miss chance, but that basically equates to a 50% kill chance.

[Arbane]

Maybe I missed it, but how are the Earthlings doing anything to wizards with shapechange (edit: or clerics, druids, and others that can get it)? They can just turn into dread wraiths (or take your pick of incorporeal creatures), kill people with impunity, and rest in mage's mansions when they get bored, and laugh at all the non-magic users with their bullets and swords knowing nothing can touch them, and they'll be there at the end no matter what?

I think the OP said later on to assume the adventurers over level 15 or so are off pillaging the Outer Planes, otherwise they just show up and start hitting 'I Win' buttons until it's all over. (What's the Earth side got that can beat a Prismatic Sphere?) To make it fair(er), Earth-side doesn't use nukes or bioweapons.

Proving once again that Fighter can beat Wizard, if the wizard has both hands tied behind their back and a bucket over their head. :smallamused:

Anyone know how much ammo your typical army guy carries when they're out on patrol? I could easily see a summoner-type wizard spamming minions until the Earthanoids run out of bullets....



Curses: saves, the usual requirement of proximity, and the ability to send soldiers home when they keep drawing chickens out of their holsters so that the spell no longer functions (No magic on Terra).

Illusions are available on both sides; we've had things like that since WW1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Maskelyne


Hee. I need to learn that curse for my PF Witch....

I think part of the premise is magic works on Earth for the same reason guns and electronics work on D&DWorld - otherwise, this is literally a one-sided fight, as there's very little way for the D&Ders to ever counterattack.

And when i say illusions I'm not talking 'okay, we'll make them think we've got a base here', I'm talking 'We'll make the guy with the flamethrower think his comrades have turned into werewolves.' Much more immediate and unpleasant. (Especially for his comrades.)

[Hirax]

Ummm... nonmagical energy can still kill incorporeal creatures. Flamethrowers, explosives, etc. There's a 50% miss chance, but that basically equates to a 50% kill chance.

That's not correct. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality)

"Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids."

[Averis Vol]

o.o wat?

I think I'm watching a joke fly over my head, but they were developed with computers and cameras long before Magic Missile was part of our cultural norm. If anything it was based off of the Lunar Race and the attempt to accurately launch projectiles to a target site with perfect precision needed for space navigation.

What? flying over your head?
.....silly Feralventas, magic missle doesnt miss. :smalltongue:

[Hecuba]

Ummm... nonmagical energy can still kill incorporeal creatures. Flamethrowers, explosives, etc. There's a 50% miss chance, but that basically equates to a 50% kill chance.

No, it cannot.


An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).

[Arbane]

AND ANOTHER THING... :smallsmile:

Even with modern weaponry, air superiority can make a big difference, and the Terran Invaders might not have that at first - helicopters can only do so much, and there won't be any runways in D&Dland.

On that note, wars are won & lost on logistics - was there ever any agreement on the limits, if any, of the Terrans' method of transport to D&Dland? Can they teleport an aircraft carrier into the nearest ocean, or are they stuck with one Stargate that's too small to fit a tank through?


That's not correct. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality)

"Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids."

I think you just found an I-win button for the D&Ders.

....Hm, how about nonlethal sonic weapons? Do those still affect incorporeal creatures? (I'm guessing no.)

[Hecuba]

I think you just found an I-win button for the D&Ders.

....Hm, how about nonlethal sonic weapons? Do those still affect incorporeal creatures? (I'm guessing no.)

This was actually pointed out some pages ago, but it has some problems:

Most full time on incorporeal creatures are undead, and holy water is a listed exception (and is reasonably available to the Earthicans)
Casters can gain full time etherealness fairly easily, but have extremely limited tools for affecting the Material plane if they do so
Incoporeal subtype is better (for this, anyways), but harder. The only option I can find that avoids the holy water issue is the Savage Species ritual (which carries LA +2). Admittedly, I haven't looked super hard though.
Non-casters who are incorporeal are more or less limited to using ghost touch weapons, which-- if taken -- grant the Earthicans a tool to kill them. As such, this tactic is only reasonably deployable for non-mundane soldiers.


And no, by the listed rules of the Incorporeal subtype, sonic weapons do not work unless they are supernatural or magical.

[VGLordR2]

Eidolons from Ghostwalk are Incorporeal and are not Undead.

[Little Brother]

Let's make things a little more fair.

I think it is fairly safe to assume that most characters of 15th+ level have a very limited presence on the Material Plane. Their adventures have them knocking around the Outer Planes burning down demons or some such. It's not that they couldn't stop the invaders, but that they're either not aware of the invasion or are too busy to just pull up roots and go back to fight an entirely new thing while their former enemies are just sitting there not taking this as an opportunity to stab them while they sleep.I'd accept this, for the most part, and it is very good point, but really, can you tell me that NO high-level adventurer might want to settle down with his own kingdom? No Mage-Kings at all? No massively powerful generals? No Ghazghkull-level barbarian warlords? I mean, I accept that the world couldn't sustain most high-level adventurers doing it, and most that get that high probably enjoy the excitement too much to settle down, but I have trouble believing none at all exist.

At the same time, it's very likely that the local kingdom won't even realize these guys are invaders (people with strange weapons and language show up out of nowhere, that's not exactly new) until Terran boots are stomping around the closest fortifications. The local peasants, despite their life expectancy, are probably still going to be a lot happier with living under Terran rule and all the rights and luxuries that come with it, so aside from some random patriots, we're not likely to have the Terrans facing much opposition from locals or even levies. Only household knights will be willing to fight, at least until they eat a shell to the teeth and die.Now THIS is a great point. The only counter I can think of is the luxuries of casters, and some clerics/wizards might not take kindly to the new-fangled medicine/other toys of the Terrans muscling in on their business. And, I dunno about you, but some shiny new toys, or protection from invisible stalkers, packs of Displacer Beasts, packs of Blink Dogs/Demons/Other teleporting creatures, and the ability to regrow limbs?

Since characters below, say, 6th are not sturdy enough and don't have enough magic to be effective (and enough stake in the old order to really stand behind their rulers) and the 15+ guys aren't around, that leaves us with 7th-14th level characters to do the real moving and shaking. Even so, before they and their leaders can even consider a counter-attack on enemy soil, they're going to need to kick the Terrans out of their backyard. So Terran high command is safe, which probably includes the commanding general and immediate underlings. The worst thing that can happen is that the D&Ders go after supply dumps, but they have no way of recognizing them for the first while, and would likely not have a very good idea of how to go after mundane disguised locations, as their tools would be oriented towards piercing illusions and so forth.I'd argue level 5 for Wildshape(Mystic) Rangers, Druids, Clerics, and Wizards, but otherwise, level 6 does seem a reasonable conclusion.
With Charms/social Rogues/etc, they can probably get all the information they need out of a soldier.

Given these assumptions (which somewhat favour the Terrans, but nothing that's that much of a stretch) it's still pretty clear that it's only a matter of time before one of the high level guys slays the lich of the month and pops back home to see what's up, or until the mid-level characters figure out what's going on, or until the local kings finally decide to do something about this and hire lots of adventuring parties (because let's face it, the real power in D&Dland doesn't lie with the ruling classes, they're going to need to assemble adventurer companies from all over, and pay them dearly). Before any of this happens, how much can the Terrans get away with?

The goal seems obvious: capture the local kingdom, dispose of the king, then send diplomatic missions to neighbouring lands and win them over gradually through trade. The only condition this plan requires is that it must be completed before other countries get involved. Until it's a war against all the adventurers the local kings could afford to hire with all the money in the treasuries, the Terrans are likely to do well.This, again, makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought of it quite like this before.

What do you think - can the Terrans manage to keep this a war against a single kingdom, or will the D&D 'verse unite itself far too quickly? I'm perfectly willing to assume that it's only one Earth country doing the invading, too, since military technology is largely the same all around.It really does depend on what type of kingdom the Terrrans invade. I mean, if it is some backwater/nutjob-run tiny country, and they move carefully afterwords, they could probably get by with a lot. If they attack a large kingdom, and overrun it within a week, everyone else would be getting mighty worried pretty fast. It also depends on how many, if any, close allies this kingdom has. If Terra is lucky, they could seize quite a bit before anyone really cares.

And, this whole post is just proof that Flicker is an outsider of pure brilliance and awesome.

That's how mercenaries work, yeah. Seriously, though, read my huge post above, it has words in it that explain this already. a) the world isn't theirs anymore, they're plane-hopping; b) they have their own enemies to fight; c) they are accustomed to being paid tremendous sums of money - a single CR-appropriate encounter for a 15th level party will cost whoever hired them over 15,000 GP. For a battle that will last about 30 seconds max. To hire high-level PCs for a war would bankrupt the entire kingdom in days.This is ignoring a couple things. One, the mage-kings/barbarian warlords/etc. I doubt there wouldn't be none in this world. Two, multiple largish kingdoms could split the cost. Three, some of these adventurers are either rogues(Who can offer a plan with "Very reasonable" interest rates), or blood-knight style fighters/sorcerers/barbarians.

We have seismic sensors that would function as tremmor-sense to catch burrowers, though Earth Elementals would probably have to be put down with raw force and firepower once they emerged. Earth glide. They don't disturb the ground. Bullettes would be picked up, but not elementals(And a monolith could probably destroy an unprepared base.

This is starting to look like Wizard vs Fighter, Bizarro World edition: "Of COURSE the fighters are perfectly prepared for all contingencies and always have exactly the right weaponry on hand!"

Let's turn that around: what does D&Dland have that the Glorious Terran Liberation Expeditionary Force WON'T have any reasonable counter-measure to, at least at first?

Mind control
Shapeshifters
Weather control
Teleporters
Earthquakes & volcanoes
Curses
Walls of Force
Illusions
Shatter spells on their guns

Any big ones I'm forgetting?

"What do you MEAN, half of B platoon has gone AWOL?!"
"They said they saw someone 'jump really well', then we lost contact, sir..."Jumplomancer reference. Nice.

Incorporeals are one thing you forgot. Psychological warfare is another. I mean, how do you think the soldiers are going to react when a brutal night attack kills, let's say, fifty of them, and 10 minutes later, a cleric casts Plague of Undead? Mixing illusions with summons. Large-scale destructive spells in general, too(Storm of Vengeance or whatever. Acid rain? Ouch).

Defenses? Protection from arrows grants DR10/magic. A simple Battle-axe can beat that on a luck roll before any modifiers are applied; can you imagine how much more damage a modern assault rifle is capable of? I understand d20-modern has it at about 2d10, but I'm inclined to disregard that in favor of comparison to the weapons in a material sense. Take into account as well the potential of non-magical bonuses I'd mentioned in the post above as well as the soldier's own potential augmentations for aiming, ammunition types, etc., and you're looking at an average damage that can pierce basic DR/- on every shot. Then take into account that there will likely be several slugs following it, or one large one; save or die vs massive damage.One thing people forget about bullets. Yes, they have huge amounts of force behind them, but most of them are SMALL. not a lot of damage outside the injury. Yes, if it hits a potentially lethal spot, it's gonna do a LOT of damage, and it is VERY good at killing, but it is not very good at injuring. There's a reason you hear stories about people surviving having clips unloaded into them, even surviving headshots(Crits).

And where does everyone get the idea that explosive=force? Every time it shows up in the rules, it's bludgeoning. Force is, like, solidified magic. Wall of Force is not Wall of Explosion. The pressure wave is bludgeoning, or maybe sonic, but no way force.

[Aux-Ash]

All the listed spells but Fimbulwinter are on the SRD.

Also, Earthquake.

Good morning.

All right then. I'll go through the list. Mind that I'm not exactly clear how you intended to use the spells, but I'll try to guess.


I cannot access fimbulwinter, so I'll leave that one for someone who can

Elemental weirds I cannot find.

Divination: Vague advice? Yeah sure. One could probably avoid a few otherwise unavoidable mistakes that way. But I can't see how it can be used to win anything major on it's own.

Control weather: Absolutely. This one is one of the better spells the dnd force can employ against the terrans. If nothing else it can ground flights. Only drawback is that you physically have to move to the target location.

Planar binding: Hmmm... This one seems a bit double edged. It's like gate not something that can be effectively used if the enemy see you and can bring forces to bear against you. But it shouldn't be that difficult a way to summon big dangerous things at random points in the wilderness around the enemy.
After all, both sides recieve the same benefit from hiding.

Though... this one does assume you don't summon anything that can beat the will save and that you can convince it to do what you tell it to. From what I can gather, that's far from trivial.

Earthquake: You know... tremor would be a more apt name. 1 round/ 6 seconds. 80 ft radius? A range of 200 m. Cannot collapse reinforced buildings (like you know...most modern buildings. Especially military ones) This one is seriously lackluster.
You have to move the cleric/druid inside firing range for something less efficient than many modern munitions. It's not nearly as impressive as it sounds. I do think we got better things for our clerics and druids to do.[/quote]

I'm more than interested in discussing the uses and limitations of more spells. Just toss ones up and explain why you think they'll make a significant impact on the conflict itself.
Mind that I can only access SRD stuff.

[Acanous]

Transdimensional Spell. The Wizards don't care about the downsides to being etherial.

Nobody's even mentioned Psionics, Incarnum, or Binders yet, either.
Also, why are we assuming that the US is in control of the portal? I see many refferences to US-only military units, but then someone went and said that the terrans are honoring the Geneva convention. Which is it?

If we go ahead and assume that there's going to be armies from every nation involved, we're talking chinese human waves and Israeli scorched-earth warfare.
(Trying really hard not to give any direct real-world examples).
Heck, the Russians have som einteresting ideas about warfare, too. Not even counting Canadian Rangers, Australian Storm Troops, Etc. Etc. Etc.

This war would be handled very differently depending on what country has the portal in the realverse. Can you imagine if it was in Siberia? The Russians would have no problem with aiming all manner of AoE deadliness at the portal exit. Trying to sneak through just wouldn't work.

[Hecuba]

Transdimensional Spell. The Wizards don't care about the downsides to being etherial.

Transdimensional spell only works for material to ethereal, not the other why around.

[Acanous]

Really? I thought it worked both ways. Or at least was implied to.

[Little Brother]

Good morning.

All right then. I'll go through the list. Mind that I'm not exactly clear how you intended to use the spells, but I'll try to guess.Okay.

I cannot access fimbulwinter, so I'll leave that one for someone who canFrostburn. Makes it winter(Or a really nasty winter if it's autumn/winter) for 4d12 months.

Elemental weirds I cannot find.In the wonderfully balanced MMII. Basically immobile, but cast as an 18th level sorcerer(With some domains, even), and have Contact other Plane(And a bunch of other Divinations) at will, as a free action.

Divination: Vague advice? Yeah sure. One could probably avoid a few otherwise unavoidable mistakes that way. But I can't see how it can be used to win anything major on it's own.CoP, Augury, etc. Divination isn't the only Divination, you know.

Control weather: Absolutely. This one is one of the better spells the dnd force can employ against the terrans. If nothing else it can ground flights. Only drawback is that you physically have to move to the target location.A downside, yes, but the power behind it is worth it.

Planar binding: Hmmm... This one seems a bit double edged. It's like gate not something that can be effectively used if the enemy see you and can bring forces to bear against you. But it shouldn't be that difficult a way to summon big dangerous things at random points in the wilderness around the enemy.LPB gets the succubus. That has Charm, illusions, and is otherwise the perfect assassin. Just order it on an assassination campaign. Bound Nightmares can give you Astral Projection early.

Though... this one does assume you don't summon anything that can beat the will save and that you can convince it to do what you tell it to. From what I can gather, that's far from trivial. That's the fun part of it. Geas, Bestow Curses, Crushing Despair, and various other Debuffs on it and buffs on yourself, it's easy to break most things.

Earthquake: You know... tremor would be a more apt name. 1 round/ 6 seconds. 80 ft radius? A range of 200 m. Cannot collapse reinforced buildings (like you know...most modern buildings. Especially military ones) This one is seriously lackluster. Ah, you significantly overestimate the earthquake readiness in the US. Significantly. Check the figures on what would happen if a big one hit LA. Couple articles online have covered this. The US is the only country I have experience with, but just a demonstration of being able to flatten a city within minutes is useful.

You have to move the cleric/druid inside firing range for something less efficient than many modern munitions. It's not nearly as impressive as it sounds. I do think we got better things for our clerics and druids to do.Druids have Storm of Vengeance, which has acid rain. I am not expecting these spells to have a massive impact per se, but more the idea that "We control the Earth and the Skies. Bring it." Would you voluntarily attack someone who can create earthquakes with a word?

I'm more than interested in discussing the uses and limitations of more spells. Just toss ones up and explain why you think they'll make a significant impact on the conflict itself. The subtle spells do a lot more damage, but the large-scale-ish flashy ones? They damage moral. Psychological warfare. Terror tactics. Imagine, say, what a soldier would do if you sent demons, like serious demons, into their camp at night, butchered a bunch of their men, and five minutes later, their dead get up and kill them.

Mind that I can only access SRD stuff.[/spoiler]Ah, okay. Plague of undead animates all corpses within a certain area.

[candycorn]

Really? I thought it worked both ways. Or at least was implied to.

Nope. It explicitly states, just like almost every transdimensional effect, that it allows spells cast from the material plane affect the ethereal plane. It does not state the reverse.

EDIT:

@Little Brother: Often, destructive force is listed as untyped energy damage. That's likely what I'd lump any mundane weapons in as.

[Hecuba]

Really? I thought it worked both ways. Or at least was implied to.

Nope. I've seen plenty of people who are willing to allow it to do so, but as written it's only one way.

Probably a good thing too-- even the rounds/day item that allow you to cast from the ethereal to the material have the potential to be encounter breaking if the opponent cannot readily deal with planar travel.

[Acanous]

That's how we've had it play at the local table, so I'm just surprised that it doesn't.

Fimbulwinter looks exceptionally horrid. Wonder if it's low enough level to be Maximized or Chained.

[candycorn]

That's how we've had it play at the local table, so I'm just surprised that it doesn't.

Fimbulwinter looks exceptionally horrid. Wonder if it's low enough level to be Maximized or Chained.

Actually, they word it that way to prevent creatures from sitting in safety in the ethereal and pummeling things.

Fimbulwinter is a level 9 spell.

[Aux-Ash]

Okay.

Let's have a look again. And once more, please add a motivation. -Why- is this so impossibly powerful that the mundanes have no chance?



Frostburn. Makes it winter(Or a really nasty winter if it's autumn/winter) for 4d12 months.

Range? Radius? Casting time? Spell level? Any other drawbacks.


In the wonderfully balanced MMII. Basically immobile, but cast as an 18th level sorcerer(With some domains, even), and have Contact other Plane(And a bunch of other Divinations) at will, as a free action.

That immobile bit is a horrific drawback against the terrans. Do you know that we have muntions with blast radii larger than -most- enlarged spells have ranges? We don't even have to hit it... just hit close to it.

And that's not going up to nukes.


CoP, Augury, etc. Divination isn't the only Divination, you know.

Augury is the lesser version of it. Useful yes. Impossibly powerful? Eh,I have difficulty seeing how. But it is an advantage the terrans don't have. True.

CoP seems a bit dangerous to use. And you can only recieve confirmations or denials.

In all cases, it requires you to know what to ask. But again, yes, they're useful. Can probably save many lives if used properly. Mind... poorly worded questions can also lead to perfectly doable tactics being discarded.


A downside, yes, but the power behind it is worth it.

Agreed, though it does lower it's effectivness a bit. Thus far I think it's the most powerful spell I've analyzed.


LPB gets the succubus. That has Charm, illusions, and is otherwise the perfect assassin. Just order it on an assassination campaign. Bound Nightmares can give you Astral Projection early.

That's the fun part of it. Geas, Bestow Curses, Crushing Despair, and various other Debuffs on it and buffs on yourself, it's easy to break most things.

So... you summon something with willsave +7, spellresistance and charisma 26 and counts on it failing one spell resistance check, one willsave and two consecutive charisma scores?

And then, in order to ensure that it does. You spend even more spells on it?
Just how many spells do you have?

Assuming that you do pull it off though. I guess it'll do decently. Good for assassinations and blakc ops no doubt. But the whole plan strikes me as either very expensive or very much up to chance.


Ah, you significantly overestimate the earthquake readiness in the US. Significantly. Check the figures on what would happen if a big one hit LA. Couple articles online have covered this. The US is the only country I have experience with, but just a demonstration of being able to flatten a city within minutes is useful.

It's not a big one. It's tiny and lasts 6 seconds. The spell specificially mentions it'll only collapse wood buildings and those made of masonry. But not stone or -reinforced masonry-. We use reinforced concrete for most things.

Will it cause damage? Yes. But considering the radius is smaller than the surface area of many officebuildings it's not nearly as impressive as it sounds. This spell is self contained in most individual buidlings.
At best you can collapse -a- building. A poorly built one.

To compare... most actual earthquakes have radii in the tens of thousands of ft. This one got 80. Not 80 yards or meters... feet. Not even 27 m.


Druids have Storm of Vengeance, which has acid rain. I am not expecting these spells to have a massive impact per se, but more the idea that "We control the Earth and the Skies. Bring it." Would you voluntarily attack someone who can create earthquakes with a word?

A 120 m radius stormcloud. 200 m range. Spellcaster have to stand completely still for 1 minute. You know... this is also one of those things that sounds more impressive than it is.
The terrans got munitions that will do worse and we're not even talking high end stuff. And apparently we're not afraid of people with those muntions... so why would we be afraid of this. Especially since our friend the caster have to plant himself within efficient firing range. This spell would be a terran sniper's wet dream.


The subtle spells do a lot more damage, but the large-scale-ish flashy ones? They damage moral. Psychological warfare. Terror tactics. Imagine, say, what a soldier would do if you sent demons, like serious demons, into their camp at night, butchered a bunch of their men, and five minutes later, their dead get up and kill them.

The same sort of morale damage night time artillery or airstrikes do? It's not as the terran world haven't got terror tactics on their own you know. We learned to guard against night time attacks hundreds of years ago. The idea is sound, to be sure. And I'm sure the demons are terrifying.

And it's not as if the terrans will be completely helpless. Even if the demons teleport in... it'll take what... 6 - 12 seconds before people start shooting at it? 15 before the machine guns are down? 1 minute before there's at least one tank firing (assuming they have one).

Still yes. Solid tactic. Should definately be in repertoire.


Ah, okay. Plague of undead animates all corpses within a certain area.
Range, radius, duration, spell level?

[Gwendol]

A large giant can hurl a rock causing 2d6+STR mod damage. We can approximate the initial velocity to be around 45 m/s. With the weight of the rock (45 lb) the energy is about 20.6 kJ, which equates to 17 hp damage on average.
The projectile fired by what is probably the most common cannon in the world, the Bofors 40mm, weighs 1 kg (or around 2 lb). Initial velocity is 1021 m/s. The damage from impact alone is equivalent to 425 hp damage, but then you need to account for the explosive, which carries about the same amount of energy. That's about 800 hp damage. From one round. This gun fires 4 rounds/second, which means 24 shells/round. Round 1: 19200 hp damage.

Modern day bofors guns comes with programmable munitions, meaning they will behave differently according to the target.

D&D world is too slow and too limited range to cope with this. Psycological warfare? Try having your celestial/infernal ally being blown to tiny bits ten times over the second they are detected a few times and see how the clerics handle the loss.

[candycorn]

The problems with use of munitions for terrans isn't the power of the munition, but the identification of targets.

Let's say, for example, that the terrans can't immediately associate the guy in the shirt and leather pants with the hail of fire falling down around them, as really, all he did was wave his arms around and shout.

Terrans have a word for that. It's not "mage". It's "crazy". And we don't call down artillery strikes on "crazy".

So we have to locate and identify the target, something far from assured. Once terrans do that, they've got an edge. But in small scale engagements, when the other side has the ability to literally disappear and reappear 1000 miles away? When they have the ability to scout via magic before they land in the hot zone?

No, small scale engagements go firmly to the D&D side. Modern militaries have always had success fighting armies, and difficulty finding and fighting specific individuals. Once D&D goes to small squad combat, it wins, most every time.

[Hecuba]

Range? Radius? Casting time? Spell level? Any other drawbacks.

Range/radius are mile/level. It takes 20 minutes, and lasts 3 months to just under a year. 9th level.

[kardar233]

If D&D goes on the offensive, RL is irreparably boned.

Don't even need Planar Binding. Planar Ally in some Demons; Succubi are a good option. Tell them that their assignment is to fragment or destroy world governments and military commands. For them, it's basically a paid vacation.

If you just want to destroy the entire world, you've got plenty of options. Sun-Gate Mega Lazor Beam should be able to melt continents given a while, the Metabreath-stackers can cover a good part of the world in whatever element they feel like for quite a while, Decanters of Endless Water in the oceans will cause massive flooding, etc.

[Silva Stormrage]

Has anyone brought up the spell blizzard from Frost Burn? 1ft of snow a round for a round/caster level in a 100ft radius per caster level? Widened and extended (With rods) and you can deal a crazy amount of damage to bases and other structures.

[Little Brother]

Let's have a look again. And once more, please add a motivation. -Why- is this so impossibly powerful that the mundanes have no chance?Okay.

Range? Radius? Casting time? Spell level? Any other drawbacks.Range is centered on self, or maybe close range. Radius is 1mi/CL. Casting time is 10 minutes, but its actually 1 full round action, due to Uncanny Forethought. Level 9. Might have, like, a fifty XP cost.

The damage? Destroys all crop production within that range for half a year. Plus, the psychological impact of "The climate is mine."

That immobile bit is a horrific drawback against the terrans. Do you know that we have muntions with blast radii larger than -most- enlarged spells have ranges? We don't even have to hit it... just hit close to it.Demiplanes, or indestructible moving fortresses mean immobile isn't that big of a deal.

And that's not going up to nukes. Which I banned because they kill everyone but high-level Psions, Wilders, and Wizards, who then, for revenge or something, destroy earth. Everyone loses. Plus, land for colonization? Land with MAGIC? I think that's worth not nuking.

Augury is the lesser version of it. Useful yes. Impossibly powerful? Eh,I have difficulty seeing how. But it is an advantage the terrans don't have. True. When it is at-will as a free action, meaning they can literally cast it a billion times in one round. Weirds are basically omniscient.

CoP seems a bit dangerous to use. And you can only recieve confirmations or denials.Well-worded questions? Plus, an arbitrary number of them from your simulacrum-Weird? There's a reason every wizard's day starts with a game or three of 20 questions.

In all cases, it requires you to know what to ask. But again, yes, they're useful. Can probably save many lives if used properly. Mind... poorly worded questions can also lead to perfectly doable tactics being discarded.Remember. Free action. At will. Omniscient elementals.

So... you summon something with willsave +7, spellresistance and charisma 26 and counts on it failing one spell resistance check, one willsave and two consecutive charisma scores?Bestow curse=Penalty to checks, Cha, and Wis. Geas and a couple days gives you even larger penalties, as does Crushing Despair. Plus, you have +4 Cha from Eagle's splendor, and +a lot more from things like Moment of Prescience and Greater Heroics.

And then, in order to ensure that it does. You spend even more spells on it?
Just how many spells do you have?As a high-level wizard? Basically however many I want. Remember, you can kill a bajillion people with basically no risk, but the succubus can do it with ACTUALLY no risk, while you go off and do other things. You get spells back every day, you know.

Assuming that you do pull it off though. I guess it'll do decently. Good for assassinations and blakc ops no doubt. But the whole plan strikes me as either very expensive or very much up to chance.One day's worth of spells would let you get about however many succubi you want. That's just from LPB. Especially if you have your own(Preferably accelerated) demiplane.

It's not a big one. It's tiny and lasts 6 seconds. The spell specificially mentions it'll only collapse wood buildings and those made of masonry. But not stone or -reinforced masonry-. We use reinforced concrete for most things.Okay. It'll collapse houses. And old buildings. And cause a massive panic, which is what matters. Death by destruction of economy works.

Will it cause damage? Yes. But considering the radius is smaller than the surface area of many officebuildings it's not nearly as impressive as it sounds. This spell is self contained in most individual buidlings.
At best you can collapse -a- building. A poorly built one. Ur-Theurge with a persisted Undermaster can use it every round all day. I think he can live with that.

To compare... most actual earthquakes have radii in the tens of thousands of ft. This one got 80. Not 80 yards or meters... feet. Not even 27 m. Per use. 270M in a minute. And the terror of causing Earthquakes, even small tremors, at will? That's nasty.

A 120 m radius stormcloud. 200 m range. Spellcaster have to stand completely still for 1 minute. You know... this is also one of those things that sounds more impressive than it is.
The terrans got munitions that will do worse and we're not even talking high end stuff. And apparently we're not afraid of people with those muntions... so why would we be afraid of this. Especially since our friend the caster have to plant himself within efficient firing range. This spell would be a terran sniper's wet dream. Invisibility/Ethereal/Xorn movement/otherwise being unseeable or untargetable while casting? I can live with this.

The same sort of morale damage night time artillery or airstrikes do? It's not as the terran world haven't got terror tactics on their own you know. We learned to guard against night time attacks hundreds of years ago. The idea is sound, to be sure. And I'm sure the demons are terrifying.

And it's not as if the terrans will be completely helpless. Even if the demons teleport in... it'll take what... 6 - 12 seconds before people start shooting at it? 15 before the machine guns are down? 1 minute before there's at least one tank firing (assuming they have one).

Still yes. Solid tactic. Should definately be in repertoire. Yeah. If, what, 8 demons/devils pop in, they can kill a dozen or two before dying. Ten minutes later, another demon pops up, kills a couple more. Then, ten minutes later, it happens again.

Or cast elemental swarm, summoning Earth Elementals underground. After they just swing from underground. Kill a bunch.

Range, radius, duration, spell level?[/spoiler]Close range, all corpses within range, Instantaneous, level 9(So minimum of 110 feat). Once again, the caster just hides below ground, harassed, EQs, gets a bunch of corpses ready, then animates them and retreats. Easy.

And I'm sure a decent number of the soldiers would vacate their bowels then run from zombies.

[Averis Vol]

Wait, the DnD world people have to wait their turn to attack. that means the troll moves thirty feet and claws, then waits for the army to finish its turn, then go again if its still alive? I believe power in vast numbers screws the action economy in this situation.