Battle Sorcerer.

[Snowbluff]

Sorcadin knows 1 9th level spell at 20. (Paladin2/Sorc6/AbjChamp5/Exo7 or whatevs)

Replacing paladin for a similiar 20 CL (Sorc7/Abjchamp5/otherstuffidc.We don't need to dip for BaB, or proficiencies) level 20 build with Battle Sorcerer knows 2.

Paladin saves are all well and good, but has anyone stopped to think about actually counting the number of spells for these Battle Sorcerers know in comparison?

[eggs]

I agree completely. Its advantages are most pronounced between ECLs 4 and 14, but even after that, it's not a bad class.

Battle Sorcerer's bad rap comes from its occasional role as a straight substitution for Sorcerer levels.

As a gish of its own (plus AC), it's not shabby at all. It just lacks a unique flair.

[Lonely Tylenol]

So...

How many spells of every other level does the Battle Sorcerer know?

[Snowbluff]

4,4,3,3,3,2,2,2,2. One less per spell level.

One less for 1st-7th, same number for 8th. 1 more for 9th. I think 6th and 7th is where they really suffer. 2nd level can be crowded as well, with Bladeweave (one of my favorites), Wraithstrike, and Wings of Cover.

[Lonely Tylenol]

4,4,3,3,3,2,2,2,2. One less per spell level.

One less for 1st-7th, same number for 8th. 1 more for 9th. I think 6th and 7th is where they really suffer. 2nd level can be crowded as well, with Bladeweave (one of my favorites), Wraithstrike, and Wings of Cover.

So a Sorcadin actually knows several more spells than a Battle Sorcerer? More at every level but 8th and 9th, in fact? :smallconfused:

I mean, not for nothing, and I know that any difference in 9th-level spells is kind of a big deal, but if I only need one 9th-level spell (let's call it Time Stop) to lay waste to nations, well, a Sorcadin still gives that one 9th-level spell. As it so happens, it also gives much more in the way of lower-level spells, which is where a lot of the best gish spells are anyway.

[Snowbluff]

So a Sorcadin actually knows several more spells than a Battle Sorcerer? More at every level but 8th and 9th, in fact? :smallconfused:

I mean, not for nothing, and I know that any difference in 9th-level spells is kind of a big deal, but if I only need one 9th-level spell (let's call it Time Stop) to lay waste to nations, well, a Sorcadin still gives that one 9th-level spell. As it so happens, it also gives much more in the way of lower-level spells, which is where a lot of the best gish spells are anyway.

Yeah, except for you can have some spells in higher slots as needed. It's not much to go on, but when you are measuring a class in spell power or capability to perform its role (Battle Sorc is a fully functional gish at all levels), I don't see why people would straight up avoid and discourage use of this variant.

As for Time Stop, it was my understanding that Shapechange was the point-defeating 9th of choice for Gish.

[Little Brother]

I mean, not for nothing, and I know that any difference in 9th-level spells is kind of a big deal, but if I only need one 9th-level spell (let's call it Wish or Shapechange) to lay waste to nations, well, a Sorcadin still gives that one 9th-level spell. As it so happens, it also gives much more in the way of lower-level spells, which is where a lot of the best gish spells are anyway.Fixed.

Regardless, I do see his point. 9th level spells are ridiculously good. Shapechange AND wish might just be too good to pass up(Unless, you know, you just shapechanged into an Ethergaunt and borrowed the Wizard's spell book). In a mid-OP game, the Standard Sorcadin is the best, at high OP, they may be about equal, and at really high OP, the standard sorcadin is superior again, due to Shapechange and/or wish abuse rendering the advantage near nonexistant, with better saves, and 2 BAB isn't that different.

[Snowbluff]

Fixed.

Regardless, I do see his point. 9th level spells are ridiculously good. Shapechange AND wish might just be too good to pass up(Unless, you know, you just shapechanged into an Ethergaunt and borrowed the Wizard's spell book). In a mid-OP game, the Standard Sorcadin is the best, at high OP, they may be about equal, and at really high OP, the standard sorcadin is superior again, due to Shapechange and/or wish abuse rendering the advantage near nonexistant, with better saves, and 2 BAB isn't that different.

Exactly. I was considering the Second Wish spell, as well as the fact that BaSorc gets 2 more 9ths/day, while grabbing a snack. They effectively have more 2 more 8th level spells known, depending on how they use Wish. Which they are more likely to take, given their extra 9th known.

[Lonely Tylenol]

As for Time Stop, it was my understanding that Shapechange was the point-defeating 9th of choice for Gish.


Fixed.

You are both correct; if you really had to pick one, and only one, from an optimization standpoint, Shapechange is probably objectively the best (and can probably get you every other 9th worth mentioning on its own; at the least, you could Shapechange into a Zodar from Fiend Folio for Wish). I just picked an arbitrary 9th-level spell at random, because really, you could take the better half of the 9th-level spell list (at least in core), write them on Post-Its, tape them to the wall, throw a dart at random, and hit a game-breaker.


Regardless, I do see his point. 9th level spells are ridiculously good. Shapechange AND wish might just be too good to pass up(Unless, you know, you just shapechanged into an Ethergaunt and borrowed the Wizard's spell book). In a mid-OP game, the Standard Sorcadin is the best, at high OP, they may be about equal, and at really high OP, the standard sorcadin is superior again, due to Shapechange and/or wish abuse rendering the advantage near nonexistant, with better saves, and 2 BAB isn't that different.

Or Shapechanged into a Zodar and cast Wish yourself, as an xp-free (Su) ability. And also gain Invulnerability (Ex).

If you only need one spell to change the game completely, then you'll get that spell as a Sorcadin. Snowbluff's point about having more 9ths is valid, but generally, you're going to get more spells across the board otherwise.


Yeah, except for you can have some spells in higher slots as needed. It's not much to go on, but when you are measuring a class in spell power or capability to perform its role (Battle Sorc is a fully functional gish at all levels), I don't see why people would straight up avoid and discourage use of this variant.

Well, because all of the things you get from Battle Sorcerer (more Hit Points, better BAB, martial weapon proficiency, etc) are things you could get from any PrC that advances spellcasting, but the missing spells can never be made up.

Thought experiment: which would you rather have: Battle Sorc 7/Abjurant Champ 5/random BS 8, or regular Sorc 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/random BS 7? Your Sorcerer levels have d4 HD instead of d8, and advance poor BAB, but once you PrC or multiclass out, the only thing left of them is your spellcasting progression. On the other hand, the benefits of Battle Sorcerer (better HD and BAB) stop coming your way once your PrC out, but you're stuck with the drawbacks for every level thereafter.

A CL 18 standard Sorcerer has more spells known than the CL 20 Battle Sorcerer at every spell level except 8 and 9, but the poor HD and BAB is not tied to its spellcasting. Divorcing them and advancing the same spellcasting with better BAB and HD is an easy possibility, and for that you want the better spellcasting.

Is Battle Sorcerer bad? No, of course not. It's just not as good as other options.

That said, I'd never take Battle Sorcerer if I had multiclassing in mind, and if I was making a single-classed gish, I'd never take Battle Sorcerer without also (and probably first) taking Stalwart Sorcerer.

[Little Brother]

Wait a sec: Where are you getting that build? The standard, and best, really, Sorcadin is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. And, really, as LT said, Shapechange is really the only spell you need(Though I really do like wish. Knowstones work, I guess, since you do have free wishes).

[Snowbluff]

Kk, you get my point.

Anyway, I'll point out two other things that should be noted.

First, many low level gish spells become obsolete. You'll be swapping some in and out, like stepping up Mirror Image to the greater version. Spammables like be Wraithstrike can be Wanded with no ill effect (and probably should be, due to the frequency of its use).

Second, dumb fluff! Playing a Paladin can be a real pain in people's arses. It's not always an option and Bahsorc can be used as a suitable replacement.

Third. Yes, I know I said two. Stalwart Sorc is very BLEGH in my opinion. I don't see how it can considered 'good', as it only offers very little. BaB is the main reason Sheepsorc can be used for Sorcadin.

Fourth, does anyone else think taking Shapechange (and/or Polymorph) kind of defeat the purpose of planning a Gish? You put all of those resources into making yourself a melee killing machine when a single spell does all the work for you. Heck, a short dip into Master Transmogrofofrgkirsomething blows most gish out of the water.

Fifth, note that a lot of builds for gish are discarded here on a regular basis for lack of 9th level spells. If that is the primary criteria for these builds, wouldn't have twice the number of 9ths make this twice the build as a Sorcadin?

Sixth, I already broke the Rule of Three, so I'll try a multiple of three.

Well, that was fun. Anyone want to argue about why invisibility should work underwater, despite what the DMG says?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Kk, you get my point.

Anyway, I'll point out two other things that should be noted.

First, many low level gish spells become obsolete. You'll be swapping some in and out, like stepping up Mirror Image to the greater version. Spammables like be Wraithstrike can be Wanded with no ill effect (and probably should be, due to the frequency of its use).

Spells are more modular than wands.

Wands also have a spell level limit.


Second, dumb fluff! Playing a Paladin can be a real pain in people's arses. It's not always an option and Bahsorc can be used as a suitable replacement.

Fluff is mutable.

Sor6/Ftr1 loses one more BAB, but gets into Spellsword just the same, without the loss of spells/day and spells known.


Third. Yes, I know I said two. Stalwart Sorc is very BLEGH in my opinion. I don't see how it can considered 'good', as it only offers very little. BaB is the main reason Sheepsorc can be used for Sorcadin.

2 HP/level is better than a d8 HD, since it tends naturally toward the average (for the same reason 2d6 is better than 1d12). The important part, however, is that it stacks with Battle Sorcerer. Congratulations! You're a full caster with a d12 equivalent Hit Dice!


Fourth, does anyone else think taking Shapechange (and/or Polymorph) kind of defeat the purpose of planning a Gish? You put all of those resources into making yourself a melee killing machine when a single spell does all the work for you. Heck, a short dip into Master Transmogrofofrgkirsomething blows most gish out of the water.

Well, neither of you accepted Time Stop as being good enough, so don't look at me...


Fifth, note that a lot of builds for gish are discarded here on a regular basis for lack of 9th level spells. If that is the primary criteria for these builds, wouldn't have twice the number of 9ths make this twice the build as a Sorcadin?

By that metric, wouldn't a not-Battle Sorcerer be three times the build? Shapechange can emulate Wish as a (Su) ability, and (Su) Wish can emulate Divine Power for no XP, so who cares about BAB, anyway? Technically, a Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/Abjurant Champion (or some better PrC, we don't care about BAB anyway) 4 is a better gish than any actual gish, because it gets three level 9s, and it can make up for its low BAB with Shapechange -> Wish -> Divine Power, with metamagic shenanigans to Persist it (and the free feats to get it). The only reason nobody does this for their gish builds is because that would be purposefully gimping a tweaked-out full-caster to do something grossly unoptimized for a tweaked-out full-caster.

[eggs]

ECL 20 is also one of the two least favorable levels for the BS in this comparison (the other being ECL 3).

At every point from ECL 4 onward, the Sorcadin and a BS/AbjChamp(/Sacred Exorcist?) have the same BA and HP (though the advantage in the latter goes to the BS if Stalwart+Battle variant stacking is permitted).

At ECL 4, the Battle Sorc has Alter Self, a free feat (assuming Practiced Spellcaster), four extra noncantrip spell slots and either a few points of AC or even more spell slots, to the Sorcadin's improved saves.

At ECL 8, the BS/AbjChamp has more noncantrip spells per day, an extra feat (assuming PS), more noncantrip spells known (including access to the gamebreaking level 4 options like Celerity or Polymorph; or Ruin Delver's Fortune, if the BS just wants a direct comparison) to the Sorcadin's improved saves.

At ECL 12, they break even in the number of noncantrip spells known and about even in the number of spells per day, but the BS still has the extra feat and its spells are skewed toward higher-level options - appealing back to the "Quadratic magic" advantage.

At ECL 16, the Sorcadin starts gaining more spells known at lower levels, but the BS has more higher-level slots. Greater Arcane Fusion commandeers the action economy in a way that I'd say makes the BS clearly win the harder-hitting offensive build (whether or not that advantage outweighs Divine Grace's now-enormous save boosts and 3 extra low-level spells may be debatable, but more actions for high-level casting is not a negligible advantage; this holds for Time Stop as well).

At ECL 20, they both have level 9 spell access - the game is broken beyond belief; we're just splitting hairs on how. The BS loses its level 4-19 advantage (a whole higher level of spell access), which I'd say makes the Sorcadin shine in comparison (at this point, the advantage in the extra level 9 slot is versatility, and with as many extra spells known as the Sorcadin has, versatility isn't a comparison that shows the BS particularly favorably). And at ECL 20, the BS will also retrain Stalwart away, losing the advantage in HP (if variant-stacking was permitted and the BS ever had that advantage).

At every point, I'd call the two comparable, and at certain levels, I think the Battle Sorc/AbjChamp is clearly a stronger build (specifically ECLs 6-11). Not to mention that the BS is still a Sorcerer, and in any case plays as one of the most powerful classes in D&D.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a custom Runestaff (MIC), you can get by with access to just 3-4 different 9ths so Sorcadin is perfectly fine but Battle Sorcerer still sucks.

[Thurbane]

The one that always gets me is the love for Suel Arcanamach, compared to the hate for Battle Sorcerer. Sure SA gets actual class features, but I mean, come on, they only get 5th level spells, and a max Spell Known of 16 (compared to 9th level spells and 25 Spells Known for the BS - excluding 0 levels).

I think BS is an "OK" gish-in-a-can for a newish player that doesn't want to have to cherry pick dips and PrCs to get there.

[Snowbluff]

Get a custom Runestaff (MIC), you can get by with access to just 3-4 different 9ths so Sorcadin is perfectly fine but Battle Sorcerer still sucks.

Calling Moot on Runestaves. A Sheepsorc can use 9th level spells sooner either way. At level 18 rather than 20.

[Keld Denar]

The one that always gets me is the love for Suel Arcanamach, compared to the hate for Battle Sorcerer.

Suel Arcanamach is just fun though. Sure, there are things that are better. There are things that are better than the Sorcadin. But it's about potential within the framework. If you build a gish using mostly PrCs, you are ignoring the biggest boons of the Battle Sorc. You abandon it's strengths and all that remains are the weaknesses. It had more potential within the parameters and doesn't use them, so it isn't optimized.

Optimization isn't about being the best ever. If it were, the only answer is pun-pun. Optimization is about being the best at your given concept within a set of given restrictions. A Sorcadin using normal sorc is better than one using battle sorc. A Sorcadin is also better than a straight class battle sorc, but just barely, and only at most ECLs. If,.however, a DM said "one PrC only", then a battle sorc 15/AbjChamp5 is better than most other gish combinations. Given the goal (sorc based gish) and the restrictions (one PrC) you can change what is most optimized. For most people, the Sorcadin is the gold standard of sorc based gishing.


Suel Arcanamach is loved not because it is more powerful than a Sorcadin or a battle sorc, it's loved because it is quirky and unique while still being good and full of potential.

[Andry]

All this talk of 9th level spells got me to thinking. How many campaigns have any of you guys played in actually make it to high enough to cast 9th level spells? In my case the highest we got up to was 16.

[moritheil]

2 HP/level is better than a d8 HD, since it tends naturally toward the average (for the same reason 2d6 is better than 1d12). The important part, however, is that it stacks with Battle Sorcerer. Congratulations! You're a full caster with a d12 equivalent Hit Dice!

Yeah, Stalwart Battle Sorc is pretty much an arcane tank in a can.


By that metric, wouldn't a not-Battle Sorcerer be three times the build? Shapechange can emulate Wish as a (Su) ability, and (Su) Wish can emulate Divine Power for no XP, so who cares about BAB, anyway? Technically, a Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/Abjurant Champion (or some better PrC, we don't care about BAB anyway) 4 is a better gish than any actual gish, because it gets three level 9s, and it can make up for its low BAB with Shapechange -> Wish -> Divine Power, with metamagic shenanigans to Persist it (and the free feats to get it). The only reason nobody does this for their gish builds is because that would be purposefully gimping a tweaked-out full-caster to do something grossly unoptimized for a tweaked-out full-caster.

Well, clearly at high levels being a pure caster is most potent. The gish thing only comes into play as a viable tradeoff at low levels, when pure casters die easily. Or, you know, for flavor and fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, clearly at high levels being a pure caster is most potent. The gish thing only comes into play as a viable tradeoff at low levels, when pure casters die easily. Or, you know, for flavor and fun. :smallbiggrin:

I don't disagree, but if we're saying that Battle Sorc 20 > Sorcadin because Battle Sorc ends with more 9ths, then we have to consider the fact that every dedicated full caster will have more than either (and can use the extra one to grab gish bits, if needed).

[eggs]

I don't disagree, but if we're saying that Battle Sorc 20 > Sorcadin because Battle Sorc ends with more 9ths, then we have to consider the fact that every dedicated full caster will have more than either (and can use the extra one to grab gish bits, if needed).
Why? The unmodified Sorcerer's spells have nothing to do with either relevant build.